[WaterlooInvestor]

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[WaterlooInvestor]

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[WaterlooInvestor]

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[HAMRetrofit]

This is a useless highway route. Who honestly cares about commuters between Kitchener and Guelph? Another major misallocation of economic recourses that could have been used towards funding something useful.

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[jeremy_haak]

HAMRetrofit, what do you suggest?

As it stands right now, I think widening will be sufficient, but population projections (we all know how accurate those are) predict more than a million people between the two regions by 2031 or so. I don't really agree that an expressway is always the best idea, but something has to be done. Other than Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph, and Highway 24 between Cambridge and Guelph, there is essentially no direct road connecting the two cities. All the back road require significant detours. (Seriously, whoever planned the concessions here were drunk out of their mind.) Building the bridge across the Grand River between Fairway Rd and Kossuth Rd would probably help quite a bit, but something else has to be done.

[HAMRetrofit]

Have you been asleep for the past 50 years? Perhaps the fast-growing 700,000+ people in Waterloo and Wellington Counties care.

The region has been successful for the past few years but not anything to get overly excited about. Mostly the region has benefited from proximity to and growth of the GTA. Maybe even the rebounding of tech to some degree. The 700,000 people in the region will not benefit from the highway’s construction only a small fraction probably a few thousand will. However the full 700,000 will be paying for it along with the rest of the province’s tax payers.

Perhaps all the entrepreneurial companies in the area care. Companies like LINEMAR and Co-Operators in Guelph and RIM, Broil King, M&M Meat Shops, Economical Insurance and Equitable Life in KW. Perhaps it's the 3 universities in the area that share some resources.

How is a commuter highway going benefit these companies at all? I could see if this was going to be a trade route that opened the region up connecting it to the 401. maybe. This highway is to open access for driving commuters who otherwise should be looking to alternative means of transportation, which are not available. The benefactors will be home builders and super center developers just like what has occurred in the GTA. My point is K/W has the opportunity to learn from the GTA's mistakes yet is choosing not to.

These are two wealthy areas that deserve provincial funding..

Who cares? There are many wealthy areas in Ontario that deserve provincial funding perhaps for something more useful than a commuter highway. If by investing into infrastructure more constructive things like improving border crossings or improving freight or passenger rail might be needed more urgently than a commuter highway? Things that actually benefit the economy on a larger scale than the few thousand commuters who travel between Kitchener and Guelph each day.

Ignorant comments like this just give your city of Toronto a bad name.

My city of Toronto will have a good name no matter what I say. My comments actually give my city a good name because they are right. :yes:

[ikerrin]

So, what are we crazy?

There is so much congestion that we need a divided highway, but we don't have enough density for inter-city passenger rail.

They should just increase rail travel between the two cities and restrict suburban development. When the trains are running at capacity then maybe turn the road into a freeway.

This road obsession we have drives me nuts.

[Cambridgite]

Is this supposed to be some kind of success story? Yay for more sprawl, car-dependency, and environmental destruction. Just watch. Once this highway is built, say goodbye to the Regional Growth Management Strategy. As you can see on that map, several interchanges are planned for roads that are out in the middle of nowhere. I guarantee you those interchanges will become magnets for more power centres, industrial parks, and monotonous subdivisions, courtesy of Reid's Heritage Homes.

I'm of the opinion that this highway is a terrible idea. Yes, it will be used, so it's not "useless". Is it the best option to deal with the problem? No. Thanks to political boundaries that don't represent true functional regions, there is no public transit between Waterloo Region and Guelph. The least that could be done is the two regions could operate 2 bus routes (one on highway 7, one on highway 24) as a joint partnership between Guelph Transit and Grand River Transit and a transfer can take place around the border of Waterloo and Wellington. Better yet, we could have the GO-train out here which would not only connect Waterloo and Wellington together, but also provide connections with the GTA. And of course the best option is to not commute, but live in the same city you work in. Of course, this is Ontario, so that idea is unpopular :rolleyes: .

[vid]

The worst part is the at-grade intersections. Having to stop every 900m is just a pain in the ass.

Why not create a transit system between Waterloo and Wellington? Terrace Bay and Schreiber share one, and they're as far apart as Waterloo and Guelph. (And have a combined population of 3,000)

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[vid]

Port Arthur and Fort William had joint operated routes in the 1890s, so I don't see why it wouldn't work there. Until about 1980, the way TBTransit was laid out, it looked like two systems with a route connecting them. They set it up having a PA Transit route going into the centre of Fort William and back, and an FW Transit route going into the centre of PA and back, so you have a route going in either direction every half hour at the time. KW could have a similar thing.

The route could leave Guelph, go to downtown Waterloo (At which point, another bus would leave Guelph), go down to downtown Kitchener, down to Cambridge, (At which point, another bus would leave from Guelph) and back. Have the route going in both directions, clockwise and counterclockwise, and that should be efficient.

[HAMRetrofit]

Actually there's been A LOT to get overly excited about. Waterloo Region is not a GTA story, which is the biggest myth some people try to spread on here.

For the most part it has, most of the upswing as occurred post 'Greenbelt' and 'Places to Grow'. K/W is a success story due to an outflow of GTA residents looking for value in the 'New Homes' suburban living arrangement. With this is the development of some business parks with tech companies and logistic warehouses where they can work a little closer to home. If this legislation were not made K/W would not be registering on the map for these new homes buyers and business park developers. They are willing to drive to the GTA for work to justify the 'value' of their home. K/W is following the same trend as Barrie and Milton and is not special in anyway.

"The new highway will serve more than 19,000 people who commute daily between Kitchener and Guelph." That's a census 2001 number. We'll have to wait a few more months until the 2006 numbers are out (Release no. 6: Tuesday, March 4, 2008) but unofficially, the number of commuters has increased. By the time the highway is finished, which is at least 5 years (2012) and more likely up to 10 years (2017) away, both cities and the number of commuters will have grown.

$400 million to serve 19,000 driving commuters? You have to be joking that you think this is a reasonable way to allocate this type of capital?

So when a GTA highway is built that obviously isn't used by all 5 million residents it makes no sense either? Also most people living and working in Waterloo and Guelph wouldn't use the 404, but does that mean it should never be funded? This is supposed to be a province where we work together - not every infrastructure project in every city will be used by all 12.8 million Ontarians.

Honestly what is your point here? You are justifying this spending $400 million on a commuter expressway on the basis that the GTA has built expressways in the past? From a fiscal perspective, it is better to maintain these expressways and to maximize their use than to build new ones that we don't really need.

Can we work together by investing into infrastructure projects that are going to benefit more than a small 19,000 people and do not even serve as a significant trade route? Why should Ontarians invest in infrastructure that is going to be used primarily for transporting commuters between one town and another so that they can live in the opposite town than they work?

Will this stretch of land between Kitchener and Cambridge be attractive for development if no expressway is built? No! This is the reason of its conception. The construction of expressways is the framework for decentralizing cities. This is not a new concept Jane Jacobs spoke about it the 60s. It is surprising that Kitchener has not heard about it yet.

We pay our taxes in this area as well. If many km's of highways can and have been built to support Toronto, I think Waterloo/Guelph has the right to deserve a relatively small 18 kilometres long highway.

This makes no sense the 401 and 407 were built as trade corridors to alleviate congestion for transporting goods between prominent cities like Chicago, Detroit, and Montreal. You have no right for anything on the basis that Toronto has already done it.

Actually, your comments give your city an arrogant attitude, such that Toronto is the centre of the universe and nothing exists beyond it's borders. Newsflash: there are 7 million Ontarians that live outside of the Toronto CMA. We all pay our taxes, and deserve infrastructure built in our cities too.

My voice does not represent the entire GTA populous of 5 million and I don't think Toronto is the center of the universe although you may. I have not lived here long. I have lived in cities in Europe and the States. This is just the typical perception that somehow the larger more prominent city owes your small city something back for its success. For example, this is the way that someone living in Rochester would view New York City. I am not denying the rest of Ontario does not deserve to undertake the construction of new infrastructure. I would state however this particular expressway project would rank incredibly low in terms of its usefulness in comparison to other projects that could be undertaken (just for comparison expanding GO service to Guelph and Kitchener or alleviating congestion at the Ambassador bridge). The commuter expressway construction bandwagon of the 1950's is over so why not innovate a better solution for this problem? Why is this so hard to comprehend from a place that claims to be the 'knowledge and innovation' capital of Canada? seems pretty backwards to me.

[Deez]

I could spit out a number of environmental and aesthetic reasons why this plan is stupid, but they've been thrown around so many times in this forum that they've become trite.

I will, however, point out that this is stupid from an operational standpoint. The articles state that counstruction would last around 5 years, finishing in 2015, and then congestion would start to hit around 2028...meaning that the project's construction period is 40% of it's acceptable service life. Nice investment. The best part is that the 2028 estimate is likely a few years too late. I'm familiar with the model that would have been used, and it does not take into account the influence that a highway has on influencing land use.

MTO should really change their name back to the Ministry of Highways...or even better, get somebody to lead the ministry in a manner that would fit their current name.

[1ajs]

aww why are people comunting from one city to another to work? isint that un economical why arnt they working where they live..........

[SlickFranky]

:previous:
seriously...one guy said he'd been making that commute for 30+ years

[vid]

I will, however, point out that this is stupid from an operational standpoint. The articles state that counstruction would last around 5 years, finishing in 2015, and then congestion would start to hit around 2028...meaning that the project's construction period is 40% of it's acceptable service life. Nice investment.

Our 13 kilometre two lane bypass took 15 years. :) The government will spend another 120 million to expand it around 2010.

And, thinking about that, it becomes obvious: The MTO doesn't know what the fuck it's doing.

[Goldfinger]

Actually there's been A LOT to get overly excited about. Waterloo Region is not a GTA story, which is the biggest myth some people try to spread on here.






So when a GTA highway is built that obviously isn't used by all 5 million residents it makes no sense either? Also most people living and working in Waterloo and Guelph wouldn't use the 404, but does that mean it should never be funded? This is supposed to be a province where we work together - not every infrastructure project in every city will be used by all 12.8 million Ontarians.



We pay our taxes in this area as well. If many km's of highways can and have been built to support Toronto, I think Waterloo/Guelph has the right to deserve a relatively small 18 kilometres long highway.



Actually, your comments give your city an arrogant attitude, such that Toronto is the centre of the universe and nothing exists beyond it's borders. Newsflash: there are 7 million Ontarians that live outside of the Toronto CMA. We all pay our taxes, and deserve infrastructure built in our cities too.







I completely agree that there should be more transit options in the area: both the GO-train and inter-city transit is a must. That said, even in more transit friendly places like Europe or Toronto, there are still highways. My point being there will always be some people who drive. Since the population is growing rapidly in Waterloo/Guelph, it's not unusual that more highways need to be built. An area with 1 million people (where W&G are heading) is typically going to have more km's of highway than an area with only 500,000. Until I see the 401 down to 3 lanes in each direction - I think a large number of cars are here to stay. As such we need to plan accordingly and build this highway, but at the same time also improve transit in the area so that the next highway expansion can be delayed as long as possible.



I'd say it is a success story because it helps to keep Waterloo and Guelph's infrastructure level on a par, per capita, with other areas. The highway connects two rapidly growing areas. I don't want sprawl either, but regardless in reality there will be some as the population grows. My realistic goal isn't to completely stop sprawl, but rather slow it's growth by focusing on reurbanization (that's where the LRT comes into play) and when suburbs are built trying to build them better.

In terms of the Regional Growth Management Strategy, I'm of the understanding the area south of the highway is supposed to be developed. I've heard that industrial parks are envisioned around the airport. Am I wrong? I don't think this will stop the reurbanization process in Waterloo Region, as I don't think it's realistic to expect all of the next 220,000 of population growth in to move into a condo/apartment downtown. I think if we could get even 40% to live in a reurbanized area we'd be doing incredibly well. However that still leaves 132,000 additional people that will be living in sprawl.



That's the old highway. For the new highway 7 "You'll be able to drive 18 kilometres between Kitchener and Guelph in under 11 minutes, without a traffic light to slow you down."



I wouldn't go as far to merge GRT and Guelph Transit, but we should have more inter-city transit. I agree with Cambridgite, that the two agencies should set up a jointly operated route between both cities.


Oh no, not this Moron again. Please stop your I love Waterloo prattle and go out on a date or something.:koko:

[Cambridgite]

For the most part it has, most of the upswing as occurred post 'Greenbelt' and 'Places to Grow'. K/W is a success story due to an outflow of GTA residents looking for value in the 'New Homes' suburban living arrangement. With this is the development of some business parks with tech companies and logistic warehouses where they can work a little closer to home. If this legislation were not made K/W would not be registering on the map for these new homes buyers and business park developers. They are willing to drive to the GTA for work to justify the 'value' of their home. K/W is following the same trend as Barrie and Milton and is not special in anyway.

Correlation does not equal causation. Yes, commuters do influence growth here. We've had them long before the greenbelt and places to grow, which are relatively new documents. The tech companies have little to do with commuters. The universities are the prime reason they are here. Logistics warehouses are here for the 401 and industrial land cheaper than the GTA. KW has been on the map for a long time. The greenbelt will just exacerbate it. If it's all about providing single family homes for Torontonians, please explain all the lofts and condos going up in Central KW. For that matter, let's see the development list for Milton and Barrie and see how urban it is.

Why should Ontarians invest in infrastructure that is going to be used primarily for transporting commuters between one town and another so that they can live in the opposite town than they work?

I agree.

Will this stretch of land between Kitchener and Cambridge be attractive for development if no expressway is built? No! This is the reason of its conception. The construction of expressways is the framework for decentralizing cities. This is not a new concept Jane Jacobs spoke about it the 60s. It is surprising that Kitchener has not heard about it yet.

I am familiar with this concept. I don't think you have any idea what's going on here though. You say that a highway won't attract development around Kitchener or Guelph. But tell that to the residents of New Hamburg and Baden, who have seen their villages take off in the past couple of years because they're close to highway 7 (aka Conestoga Pkwy), 10 minutes west of Kitchener's city limits. Quite far from the 401 I might add. Elmira is doing the same thing, north of Waterloo, on the 86. Breslau, just east of Kitchener, is essentially becoming part of the eastern suburbs right now, and this is without the highway! So what makes you think a new highway in that same direction wouldn't attract development? :koko:

This makes no sense the 401 and 407 were built as trade corridors to alleviate congestion for transporting goods between prominent cities like Chicago, Detroit, and Montreal. You have no right for anything on the basis that Toronto has already done it.

I agree. Those highways were much smarter investments. If any highway should be built here, it's one that connects to the 401 in Cambridge and extends north through the proposed employment lands in North Cambridge and future East Kitchener. At least those would play an important role in ensuring industry has a quick access to the 401, where most trucks would be heading to.

I would state however this particular expressway project would rank incredibly low in terms of its usefulness in comparison to other projects that could be undertaken (just for comparison expanding GO service to Guelph and Kitchener or alleviating congestion at the Ambassador bridge). The commuter expressway construction bandwagon of the 1950's is over so why not innovate a better solution for this problem? Why is this so hard to comprehend from a place that claims to be the 'knowledge and innovation' capital of Canada? seems pretty backwards to me.

I don't see how expanding GO-service to Guelph and Kitchener-Waterloo would benefit more people than highway 7 would. The 19,000 people who commute between KW and Guelph is far more than commute to downtown Toronto, all 3 cities combined.

[HAMRetrofit]

I am familiar with this concept. I don't think you have any idea what's going on here though. You say that a highway won't attract development around Kitchener or Guelph. But tell that to the residents of New Hamburg and Baden, who have seen their villages take off in the past couple of years because they're close to highway 7 (aka Conestoga Pkwy), 10 minutes west of Kitchener's city limits. Quite far from the 401 I might add. Elmira is doing the same thing, north of Waterloo, on the 86. Breslau, just east of Kitchener, is essentially becoming part of the eastern suburbs right now, and this is without the highway! So what makes you think a new highway in that same direction wouldn't attract development?

I know exactly what is going on there it is the same trend that has occurred across every growing city in North America. How would you describe the type of development that is occurring in these surrounding suburbs? Is is smart growth? or is it tract housing, crumby buisiness parks, and power centers just like every single municipality surrounding Toronto? I know that the highway 7 will attract new development. I just don't regard the type of development that it is going to attract as 'useful'.

[Cambridgite]

I know exactly what is going on there it is the same trend that has occurred across every growing city in North America. How would you describe the type of development that is occurring in these surrounding suburbs? Is is smart growth? or is it tract housing, crumby buisiness parks, and power centers just like every single municipality surrounding Toronto? I know that the highway 7 will attract new development. I just don't regard the type of development that it is going to attract as 'useful'.

I wouldn't categorize the type of development occuring in the surrounding suburbs as "smart growth", that's for sure. Yes, it's tract housing, crumby business parks, and power centres, just like every municipality surrounding Toronto. I agree that this is what highway 7 will attract. In terms of Elmira, New Hamburg, etc., it's mostly just tract housing. They're still small enough and close enough that most people drive to KW for major shopping and employment. If current trends continue though, they'll probably get those things. However, in your post, you made it sound like highway 7 wouldn't successfully attract ANY development, which I thought was a stupid suggestion. It will attract crappy development! :)

[HAMRetrofit]

^ I was suggesting that it would decentralize growth from the central cities to areas in close proximity of the new expressway thus subsidizing 'unsmart' & 'non-transit oriented' growth.

[Cambridgite]

^ I was suggesting that it would decentralize growth from the central cities to areas in close proximity of the new expressway thus subsidizing 'unsmart' & 'non-transit oriented' growth.

Then yes, that theory sounds pretty accurate to me.

[miketoronto]

This is a bad move. It is just going to make a region that is already way to car dependent, and full of sprawl, even more car dependent and full of more sprawl.
You want to fix the traffic problems between KW and Guelph. There is a more simple way to do it. Stop sprawl, make the central downtowns the real focus of the cities again, and run high speed transit between them.

You can't have it both ways. In one page KW and Guelph are talking about getting more people onto transit. And on the next page they want mega highways to encourage even more people to drive, and make more auto depandent sprawl.

[vid]

More the people use roads, mike.

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[vid]

Yes, that had everything to do with a highway. Bravo!

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[WaterlooInvestor]

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[WaterlooInvestor]

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[HAMRetrofit]

Stop right there. Let's agree on one thing: you know NOTHING about Kitchener-Waterloo. I'll repeat that: NOTHING (bolded and underlined). As such, I don't even think you should qualify to post in this thread regarding Waterloo's development. I know this is the internet, so you can say basically anything without backing it up, but let's for fun show how wrong your post was.

This is a bit overly defensive perhaps I have revealed a truth to you that you are not willing to admit. Never did I imply that Kitchener was a suburb of Toronto. I did however say that Kitchener has benefitted from its proximity to Toronto like Barrie and Milton.

Growth in the Kitchener area before the 'Greenbelt' legislation was 8.4%, growth after the 'Greenbelt' legislation is 8.9%. You are welcome to draw your own conclusions why this might be. My view is that it is the 'new homes' market that is driving this growth as GTA ex pats look for value outside of the city. New Canadian immigrants are not settling in Kitchener in a significant way so where else are these people coming from?

On a different note, I think it is at least worth attempting to run a bus route between the cities before investing in a $400 million dollar expressway. At least create the environment for public transit before making the leap into an investment that will subsidize more low density growth. Most of the central census tracts in the region are experiencing negative growth besides the downtowns of Kitchener and Waterloo. Constructing a new expressway will fuel growth in census tracts in the peripheral areas while central tracts are already in decline or stagnant.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1194/1466385490_b7d37c5b5e.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1424/1466385710_6328c7d307.jpg?v=0

[Cambridgite]

This is a bit overly defensive perhaps I have revealed a truth to you that you are not willing to admit. Never did I imply that Kitchener was a suburb of Toronto. I did however say that Kitchener has benefitted from its proximity to Toronto like Barrie and Milton.

Well, it's about the same distance from Toronto as Barrie. Kitchener is a lot more self-sufficient and much moreso a large/mid-sized metro in its own right. Milton is not a feasible comparison though. It's half the distance from downtown TO and is basically on the growing fringe of Mississauga.

Growth in the Kitchener area before the 'Greenbelt' legislation was 8.4%, growth after the 'Greenbelt' legislation is 8.9%. You are welcome to draw your own conclusions why this might be. My view is that it is the 'new homes' market that is driving this growth as GTA ex pats look for value outside of the city. New Canadian immigrants are not settling in Kitchener in a significant way so where else are these people coming from?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I would hardly call an increase from 8.4% to 8.9% statistically significant. Besides, how do you know that's all about commuters and the greenbelt? What if Moncton's growth has gone up? Are they commuting to Toronto too? And perhaps you should think before stating that new Canadian immigrants aren't settling in Kitchener in any significant way. Quite a bit of our migration is international, much more than you'd think. Cultural diversity has risen sharply in the past few years. Go to any new subdivision in Cambridge along Can-Amera Pkwy, walk around on a nice sunny day and tell me how white the area is. Perhaps proximity to Toronto has something to do with it. Anyways, I know WaterlooInvestor has a chart kicking around, showing the migration patterns to and from each Canadian CMA. If I recall, Kitchener has about 60% of its net gain due to immigration, 40% intraprovincial, and a net loss of interprovincial (damn Alberta, lol). Perhaps he could confirm this for me.

On a different note, I think it is at least worth attempting to run a bus route between the cities before investing in a $400 million dollar expressway. At least create the environment for public transit before making the leap into an investment that will subsidize more low density growth. Most of the central census tracts in the region are experiencing negative growth besides the downtowns of Kitchener and Waterloo. Constructing a new expressway will fuel growth in census tracts in the peripheral areas while central tracts are already in decline or stagnant.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1194/1466385490_b7d37c5b5e.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1424/1466385710_6328c7d307.jpg?v=0

I agree with you that we should explore our transit options first before we hop on the highway bandwagon. The fact that no busses serve these 19,000people should be a real eye-opener.

A few things I'd like to address about those census tract maps. First, you'll notice that Uptown Waterloo and Downtown Kitchener are indeed growing, for one (suburban growth isn't hollowing them out). Also, for those tracts that are declining, these are mainly older suburbs that have little room for growth and aren't exactly hospitable to reurbanization. If you've done your research, you'd also know that the average household size is declining all across Canada. This means fewer people in most given homes. Of course there will be declines in places with little or no construction. Why don't you pull up a similar map for the Toronto CMA? We'll see just how many census tracts are declining in Etobicoke, North York, southern Mississauga, etc. One thing you'll notice about all these places is that you don't see abandonment. It's the same thing in KW.

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[jeremy_haak]

Technically there is already some from of transit to and from Guelph; however, the ten Greyhound buses per day that travel there aren't really geared toward commuters. First, the timings are off, so that only one bus is really suited for people commuting to Guelph, and none for people commuting to Kitchener. Second, the transit systems are completely unintegrated, so that any person wishing to commute would have to own a pass in Kitchener and Guelph as well as tickets for the Greyhound bus.

The history of the two municipalities has always made me a little skeptical of any joint partnerships between them. In the 90s Guelph pulled out of the 'Canada's Technology Triangle' partnership and the Waterloo Regional Airport seemingly wishing to pursue a distinct direction from Waterloo and concerned about being swallowed into the larger Waterloo identity; however, it looks like things may be looking up with partnerships between the two cities, especially with regard to transit and commuting/housing issues. This article from July (http://www.techtriangle.com/viewnews.cfm?newsid=444) seems to indicate a desire on both sides to jointly address these issues, and transit is one that is specifically mentioned.

Piper said the two councils could work together on waste management, transit, managing urban growth or lobbying the province for infrastructure funds, to name a few examples.

Mayor Karen Farbridge has taken some first steps in re-opening the lines of communication between the two councils. Waterloo Regional Chair Ken Seiling said Farbridge contacted him by e-mail, and he plans to meet with her in August to discuss what can be done.

[HAMRetrofit]

You're making some very uneducated comments.

Your hostility only weakens your arguements.

Your chart only reinforces my point that almost 23% of Kitchener's growth is intraprovincial of which about 20% comes from the GTA. Again reinforcing my point that Kitchener benefits from its proximity to the GTA since it is within the 'commutershed'.

[Goldfinger]

I've seen completely uninformed bullshit said about KW many times before. You're making some very uneducated comments. It gets extremely annoying after awhile. Two examples, but I easily find more:

07-25-2006, 09:31 PM


10-05-2006, 11:19 PM





Yes this is it: http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/91-214-XIE/2006000/ct004_en.gif
http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/91-214-XIE/2006000/ct004_en.htm

HAMRetrofit should note the only area listed acting strongly as a magnet for Torontonians is Oshawa. (Barrie isn't listed) Although Kitchener does have postive intraprovincial migration, it is hardly overwhelming. Also note, that although Kitchener doesn't have the highest international immigration in the country, it is still better than many.

Another point I'd like to make about the census tracts for Uptown Waterloo. Let's remember that students aren't counted in the census. With the growth of both UW and WLU there are many more students in the central areas that on paper create a negative growth rate for the area, but in reality students do still live there.

HAMRetrofit should note, that I also agree with transit improvements. There's an environmental assessment about to start on extending GO transit to the region. There's a group called the North Main Line Alliance made up of the municipalities from London to Guelph that are lobbying for increased funding for VIA rail. I support all these things. However, there does come a point though where new highways are needed due to population growth. That's just reality in Ontario.

Oh boy look out, here comes the Waterloser scholar. I heard only special needs students can graduate from that program. :jester:

[Cambridgite]

Your hostility only weakens your arguements.

:yes:

Your chart only reinforces my point that almost 23% of Kitchener's growth is intraprovincial of which about 20% comes from the GTA. Again reinforcing my point that Kitchener benefits from its proximity to the GTA since it is within the 'commutershed'.

Yes, 23% or so is intraprovincial. Kitchener is not the only one with a net gain of intraprovincial either. However, where are you getting 20% from the GTA from? While it wouldn't surprise me, at least put up a reference if you're going to be taken seriously.

It does benefit from its proximity to the GTA and location in its commutershed. One would have to be foolish in assuming there's no relationship there. For example, in this report about the growth of high tech in Cambridge, Medshare cites "We were amazed by the caliber and number of people commuting to Toronto and actively looking for the opportunity to work closer to home." (page 4)
http://www.city.cambridge.on.ca/relatedDocs/2007%20mid-year%20news.pdf

To be fair, there are more factors than just proximity to Toronto (before WaterlooInvestor rips me to shreds, LOL). The universities play a very important role in fostering research and development, plus spin-off companies. There's 700,000 people within a very short drive, making it a large urban concentration even in its own right. However, the GTA is still a factor. It will become even moreso when Milton and Georgetown build out the greenbelt.

[Mister F]

Highway 7 should be four lanes, if not a full freeway than at least a divided highway with at grade intersections. Same with Hwy 24 connecting Guelph, Cambridge, and Brantford. The volumes justify it. But these projects should only go forward if two other things happen:

-provide enough protection for the countryside between the cities. The province should establish a greenbelt in the area to accomplish that. Highways don't have to be sprawl machines. A greenbelt should go along with the mid-peninsula highway through Hamilton and Niagara too.

-Establish regular, integrated transit between the cities. It's unbelievable that there's no transit between Waterloo Region and Guelph. Even Port Hope and Cobourg are linked by transit, and they have only 34,000 people combined. The province should take leadership on that and link Guelph to Kitchener and Cambridge with regional/light rail. And Cambridge should be linked to Brantford.

Somebody mentioned that the MTO's mandate should be changed to include regional transit, and I totally agree with that. It would need some serious shaking up though. I've worked there, it's a soul-sucking old boys club of road builders.

[waterloowarrior]

Highway will feed development

GUELPH
Few people know the frustration of Highway 7 like Peter Armbruster.
The Waterloo-area developer has been waiting years to build hundreds of homes in the east end of Waterloo Region. And he's ready to wait years more.

"There would be demand tomorrow if it opened up," Armbruster said.
Activa Group, where Armbruster is a vice president, built 300 homes near Bridge and Lancaster streets -- just north of Breslau, in the former town of Bridgeport -- about five years ago. But apart from that subdivision and others approved years before, development in parts of the area has been frozen since 1996 when the region determined the intersection couldn't handle any more traffic.

A large portion of the cars passing through there are people avoiding the congestion where Highway 7 enters Kitchener -- about 30 per cent, according to Shahzad Rahman, a regional engineer working on improving traffic flow through Bridge and Lancaster.

According to the most recent figures, gathered in February, about 2,000 cars pass through the intersection every hour in the morning rush, and almost 3,000 in the afternoon.

Despite the development cap, continued growth of surrounding areas and a swell in commuters between Guelph and Waterloo Region means traffic has kept growing.

The new highway will open a swath of land for potential development in Waterloo Region. Development of the so-called eastside lands, about 3,700 hectares in the area of the airport, likely won't happen for decades. But the highway will provide essential access for development by the time the region has outgrown its current footprint, said Kevin Curtis, a planner with Waterloo Region.

"If there's no new highway, you couldn't accommodate the same level of development," Curtis said. "Without it, you couldn't use the area to its fullest extent."

The eastside lands lie south of the new highway, between the Grand River and Shantz Station Road.

Planning for that development is very preliminary -- the region is determining roughly where employment lands and homes should go.

And it's all a long way off.

"In the present plan, the lands will remain rural until there's a need -- for 30 or 40 or 50 years," said John Scarfone, a senior planner for Woolwich Township.

Even then, the land north of the new highway would remain agricultural, he added.

Growth is already happening in Breslau, where some of 900 approved housing units are being built. And areas along Shantz Station are being commercialized.

"Anything outside that will remain rural for the foreseeable future," Scarfone said.

It's a different story on the eastern end of the highway, in Guelph and Wellington County. The area is surrounded by industrial land and unlikely to see much residential development. But when the new highway joins up with the Hanlon Expressway, it will create opportunity for more industry and employment lands, said Lyle McNair, president of the Guelph and District Real Estate Board.

The area most affected by the eastern end of the new highway is in Wellington County, and county politicians say they're not expecting much change.

But the planned highway is already having ripples in the area. The Guelph Golf Academy, a nine-hole course on the northeast corner of the existing highway and Townline Road in Guelph-Eramosa Township, has been discussed for years.

It was on hold until the province finalized the highway alignment. When that happened in March, the golf course got the green light.

Experience has shown it's unlikely rural lands around the highway will remain undeveloped, said David Douglas, a planning professor at the University of Guelph.

"There will be enormous pressure" to develop along the new highway, he said.

"If a decision has been made (to build a new highway), then putting in appropriate land-use controls will be imperative -- that the highway is just for highway purposes, not the wedge for strip development from Guelph to Waterloo."


Wetlands, farms paved over



The next Highway 7 will chew through farms, homes, businesses and swamps, between Kitchener and Guelph.

Critics say the cost to agriculture and the natural environment is too high, even after planners altered the route to reduce the impact on sensitive wetlands.

"It's still bad," complains Cynthia Folzer, of the Guelph Field Naturalists. "It still goes through a number of wetlands, especially as you get closer to Guelph."

Wetland areas "are still going to be impacted," said Elizabeth Wharton, of the Westmount Environment Group, in Kitchener and Waterloo. "And if they don't have to do it, why do it?"

Some farmers are upset about threatened farmland.

But other farmers say building a new highway makes sense, even if it costs taxpayers more than $300 million and disrupts their lives.

"For the long run, for the good of this neighbourhood, it's the best way to go," said Maryhill farmer Fred Wagner, a director with the Waterloo Federation of Agriculture. "The volume of traffic on Highway 7 is beyond what should be happening."

On the approved new route:

More than a dozen farms will lose 144 hectares of agricultural land.
Five businesses, on 13 hectares, will be displaced in Kitchener, to make way for a new interchange and its connector roads.

The new highway will span the Grand River, two creeks and 11 other watercourses. It will consume eight hectares of wetland, skirting several wetlands and fragmenting one near Guelph.

This is less environmental damage than feared. The highway as originally planned would have consumed up to 20 hectares of wetlands.

Facing outcry, planners shifted the approved route, to avoid a wetland north of Bridge Street in Kitchener, to skirt rather than bisect other wetlands, and to streamline the crossing of Hopewell Creek.

The new route causes "minimal" damage to the environment, Transportation Minister Donna Cansfield contends.

"It actually reduces the number of crossings along the creeks, and it reduces the impact on the Grand River as a whole," she said.

"If there's further modifications we could make that would actually impact it less, we're open to that."

Environmentalists are unimpressed. They note that wetlands are important natural areas that help recharge underground water supplies, while supporting wildlife.

"They are also places for special animals, like frogs and all kinds of amphibians that live in the wetlands, and birds that are partial to the wetlands," Folzer said.

Critics cite lost farmland as a major concern. "We need our agricultural land," Wharton said. "We want to eat locally. And how are we going to eat locally if we keep chewing up our farmland?"

Affected landowners react differently to the new highway plan.

Al Cassidy has already sold his three-hectare hobby farm on Spitzig Road to the province, because it's in the way of the new highway.

Negotiating the land sale, and dealing with years of highway uncertainty, has taken its toll. "It's been an exhaustive process," he said.

However, he has seen enough of the current highway to know that it is overwhelmed. Building a new highway strikes him as the best solution, to meet community transportation needs over the long term.

"It's a necessity," Cassidy said. "We have no sour grapes over it, having to lose our house. Somebody has to."

Wagner is poised to lose 13 hectares of rented land that he farms between Spitzig and Shantz Station roads. The new highway will also saddle him with pie-shaped lots that will be more difficult to farm than square parcels.

However, he figures a new road will reduce traffic on the current highway, making it safer for farm equipment to travel. He also expects it will keep commuters off local roads, which are filled with drivers fleeing Highway 7.

"It's one of those investments that should have been made long ago, in infrastructure, and would have been probably worthwhile for the whole neighbourhood," Wagner said.

Horse farmer Ed Koch expects the new highway will require up to three hectares of his property on Shantz Station Road.

He's mostly concerned about a proposal to also build a new laneway through his farm. It's meant to access a neighbouring property that will be left landlocked by the new road.

Koch worries the laneway will be a safety hazard, because it will pass too close to unpredictable horses.


"I will fight that if I have to go to the Supreme Court," Koch said.

Koch has been bothered for years by uncertainty about Highway 7 plans. "It's frustrating," he said. "How can you run a business if you don't know if you have to tear down some buildings, possibly?"

He doubts a new road is the solution to gridlock. "Common sense tells me, add another two lanes to the existing one," Koch said.

The province contends a widened highway would be overwhelmed by traffic by 2011.

On Elmira Road, near Guelph, Trevor Vanderpol is tired of fighting the province over his threatened farm. "It's been going on a long time already" he said.


Vanderpol owns 31 hectares that his brother uses to grow wheat, soy and corn. He figures the new highway may take up to a quarter of the farm he grew up on.

Vanderpol contends planners have underestimated the environmental diversity of the Marden wetland behind his house. It will be fragmented by the new road.

He's also upset the highway route was changed after 1997, to come much closer to his house.

This was done, he contends, to increase industrial acreage on the Guelph side of the new highway, and to appease businesses that lobbied against widening the current highway.

"They're going to be just left peachy, and everyone else takes a hit," Vanderpol said. "I get all the negatives."

The government has yet to make an offer for his land.

Vanderpol says he's lodged complaints with various government agencies but has been rebuffed.

Now, he does not know if he should invest in the repair and maintenance of his property. "It just brings so much uncertainty," he says.

The Ministry of Transportation estimates the government will spend $36 million to buy the land it needs for the new highway.

Cansfield contends the route strikes a balance, limiting damage to farms and the environment, while meeting transportation needs.

"We don't take people's lands. We pay fair market value for that land," she said. "It's not like we're taking that land and they're left with nothing."

Environmentalists Folzer and Wharton contend the better solution is to widen the current highway, even though the province claims this will not work.

"I know the old Highway 7 is not too safe the way it is," Folzer said. "But I think they could have just widened that highway and made it safe."

"That's a whole lot cheaper than putting in a brand-new highway, and chewing up wetlands and farmlands," Wharton said.

jouthit@therecord.com (jouthit@therecord.com)


sprawlway!

[the dude]

aren't highways wonderous things?

[Deez]

The current highway 7 is already congested. What would you propose doing instead?



How exactly do we stop sprawl outright? I'll say it again, 300,000 more people are going to be living in Waterloo and Guelph in 24 years. I'm as much for urbanization as the next guy, and I completely support all the new condos going up. I don't realistically expect the entire 300,000 additional people to live in a reubanized area. Is your expectation (and everyone else's) that Waterloo and Guelph will grow 100% through re-urbanization over the next 2 decades? If so, I believe that's completely unrealistic. 40% is a better target, maybe 50%, but 100%? Never going to happen. A 100% infill target is not going to happen in Toronto, it's not going to happen in Hamilton, or in Montreal, or in Ottawa, or in Vancouver, or in any other Canadian city. Why would Waterloo Region be any different?

Easy answer: you can't stop sprawl. However, you can stop doing stupid things that enable it, such as this highway.

Vancouver is a perfect example of intentionally planning to mitigate sprawl. Your average traffic engineer would decry the gridlock and high housing prices...but talk to residents and you'll find it's not the first thing on their mind. Housing prices are high because there's high demand for high density housing (since there's virtually no highway network) which has fueled a huge condo boom, which is fueling the economy...etc. If you choose to build this highway in KW, you choose to enable a car-dependent lifestyle that will only encourage more sprawl (as shown in the article wloowarrior posted) and you'll be right back in the same mess we're in now in few years, except on a greater scale.

The only reasonable solution is to not build the highway and let the free market generate development that is more sustainable economically and environmentally.

[miketoronto]

Here is my idea.

--------

GUELPH-KW COMMUTER EXPRESS BUS ROUTE
The COMMUTER EXPRESS bus route will offer auto competative transit travel between the twin cities and Guelph, stopping only at the following stops.

-STONE ROAD MALL PARK AND RIDE

-UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH PARK AND RIDE

-DOWNTOWN GUELPH TRANSIT CENTRE

-ST JOSEPH'S HOSPITAL

-EDINBURGH AND WOODLAWN ROAD PARK AND RIDE

-LACKNER AND VICTORIA

-CONESTOGA PARKWAY VICTORIA PARK AND RIDE

-KITCHENER DOWNTOWN

-GRAND RIVER HOSPITAL

-CLARICA

-UPTOWN WATERLOO

-UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO PARK AND RIDE

Enjoy easy connections to connecting transit services at Stone Road Mall, Downtown Guelph, Downtown Kitchener, and Uptown Waterloo.
Buses will operate every 15min during weekday rush hour periods, and every 20-30min during non peak times.



U OF W-GUELPH FLYER SERVICE

THIS BRANCH WILL MAKE ALL GUELPH STOPS, AS WELL AS THE STOPS AT LACKNER ROAD AND CONESTOGA PARKWAY THEN OPERATE EXPRESS VIA CONESTOGA PARKWAY TO UPTOWN WATERLOO AND U OF W.
THE FLYER SERVICE WILL OPERATE BOTH WAYS DURING WEEKDAY RUSH HOUR PERIODS EVERY 15 MIN.

WHAT ABOUT TRAFFIC?

The Commuter Express will use special curb lane busways to bypass traffic congestion on Highway 7. Future improvments will see a dedicated busway built to serve transit service in the Highway 7 Corridor.

FARES
The commuter bus fare will be $2.50 each way for adults, with free transfers to connecting transit services.

The service will be operated together by Guelph Transit and Grand River Transit.

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[WaterlooInvestor]

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[WaterlooInvestor]

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[WaterlooInvestor]

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[SteelTown]

Jeez, seeing how Six Nations is against this highway idea I completely back away from this idea. You'll be opening up a can of worms once Six Nations get involved, could get dragged along with Caledonia and it could get vicious.

A year ago there was a blockage at highway 6 that lasted over 3 months. OPP came in and all hell broke loose.

[waterloowarrior]

These are the East Side lands that the Development article referred to (proposed to be developed as employment lands).
http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/97dfc347666efede85256e590071a3d4/2b6b2bdd906e2fb68525722d006e13db/Body/25.32BE%21OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif

Right now there's an amendment for Phase One of these lands- 335 net hectares of serviced employment land (large lot manufacturing)

[Cambridgite]

These are the East Side lands that the Development article referred to (proposed to be developed as employment lands).
http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/97dfc347666efede85256e590071a3d4/2b6b2bdd906e2fb68525722d006e13db/Body/25.32BE%21OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif

Right now there's an amendment for Phase One of these lands- 335 net hectares of serviced employment land (large lot manufacturing)

Well, that may mean that highway 7 has to be built. No one commutes to work in an industrial park by transit or walking. There will also need to be better connections to the 401 there. Otherwise, it's going to totally cram up Fountain Street, the Sportsworld exit to highway 8, and the 24 exit to the 401.

[Deez]

First off, I like Vancouver and would love all those condo towers in Waterloo. However, I don't think KW is quite at that level yet.


Vancouver didn't get to the level it's at now by building highways...if you start building them now, it's a slippery slope.

[Crosby87]

How can you argue that highways are not the way of the future. When you travel to get home, what do you take? The highway. When you go the the Sens game, what do you take? The highway. If you want any goods and services from across canada or the united states, how are they going to get to you...THE HIGHWAY.
You can't ship a pile of widgets from the states on a bus, or a lightrail, just doesnt make any sense. I'd rather deal with the urban sprawl than be sneezed on by some idiot on the overpacked bus. Indeed this is the tragic life that awaits us if we listen to propoganda posted by deez.


Easy answer: you can't stop sprawl. However, you can stop doing stupid things that enable it, such as this highway.

Vancouver is a perfect example of intentionally planning to mitigate sprawl. Your average traffic engineer would decry the gridlock and high housing prices...but talk to residents and you'll find it's not the first thing on their mind. Housing prices are high because there's high demand for high density housing (since there's virtually no highway network) which has fueled a huge condo boom, which is fueling the economy...etc. If you choose to build this highway in KW, you choose to enable a car-dependent lifestyle that will only encourage more sprawl (as shown in the article wloowarrior posted) and you'll be right back in the same mess we're in now in few years, except on a greater scale.

The only reasonable solution is to not build the highway and let the free market generate development that is more sustainable economically and environmentally.

[waterloowarrior]

How can you argue that highways are not the way of the future. When you travel to get home, what do you take? The highway. When you go the the Sens game, what do you take? The highway. If you want any goods and services from across canada or the united states, how are they going to get to you...THE HIGHWAY.
You can't ship a pile of widgets from the states on a bus, or a lightrail, just doesnt make any sense. I'd rather deal with the urban sprawl than be sneezed on by some idiot on the overpacked bus. Indeed this is the tragic life that awaits us if we listen to propoganda posted by deez.

Robert Moses, is that you?

[vid]

When you travel to get home, what do you take?

The bus. :frog:

When you go the the Sens game, what do you take?

I would assume they have a bus. :frog:

If you want any goods and services from across canada or the united states, how are they going to get to you...

I live behind a train yard. Behind my house at this instant is well over a million tonnes of cargo headed for points in the distance. TRAINS! They're much more efficient than trucks!! One train can carry the cargo of *gasp* 250 semis in two thirds of the time!!!

[the dude]

How can you argue that highways are not the way of the future. When you travel to get home, what do you take? The highway. When you go the the Sens game, what do you take? The highway. If you want any goods and services from across canada or the united states, how are they going to get to you...THE HIGHWAY.
You can't ship a pile of widgets from the states on a bus, or a lightrail, just doesnt make any sense. I'd rather deal with the urban sprawl than be sneezed on by some idiot on the overpacked bus. Indeed this is the tragic life that awaits us if we listen to propoganda posted by deez.

ever heard of peak oil? highways will not play any role in our future. actually, trains do a pretty good job of transporting goods. and yes, there are buses to and from sens games.

[boden]

This is a bad move. It is just going to make a region that is already way to car dependent, and full of sprawl, even more car dependent and full of more sprawl.
You want to fix the traffic problems between KW and Guelph. There is a more simple way to do it. Stop sprawl, make the central downtowns the real focus of the cities again, and run high speed transit between them.

You can't have it both ways. In one page KW and Guelph are talking about getting more people onto transit. And on the next page they want mega highways to encourage even more people to drive, and make more auto depandent sprawl.


Well said Mike.

[Crosby87]

the only good thing about bussing to a sens game is you can get piss drunk off your ass, and you sober up since it will take you 4 hours to get home, as opposed to a 20min drive in your comfortable SUV

When you travel to get home, what do you take?

The bus. :frog:

When you go the the Sens game, what do you take?

I would assume they have a bus. :frog:

If you want any goods and services from across canada or the united states, how are they going to get to you...

I live behind a train yard. Behind my house at this instant is well over a million tonnes of cargo headed for points in the distance. TRAINS! They're much more efficient than trucks!! One train can carry the cargo of *gasp* 250 semis in two thirds of the time!!!

[vid]

the only good thing about bussing to a sens game is you can get piss drunk off your ass, and you sober up since it will take you 4 hours to get home, as opposed to a 20min drive in your comfortable SUV

I don't have a comfortable SUV. I don't actually know anyone who has an SUV... And I don't think I am physically insecure enough to want an SUV? I'd rather have a moped or something, something cheap and easy on gas. And if the bus ride to get from Kanata to Ottawa is four hours, then Ottawa's public transit really sucks.

[Waterlooian4Life]

For the Record as all of you figh over whether this is a good highway route or not, I am not sure all of you are aware what the Master plan for this highway is. According to Places to Grow this section of Highway 7 is the first step in the creation of a new highway that spans from Waterloo Region to the Markam Area. The idea behind this is to eventually use this highway as an alternate route for the 401. this is bacause over the next 20 years the 401 will not be able to support the traffic.

I do Agree that a new transit system would a better option but face it look where we live and the mind set of the people in this country. you will always have this vehicle problem and it is better that they are atleast planning for it now rather than waiting for the traffic and infrastructure disaster of the future. This country and this province are 10-20 years behind on their infrastructure... its about time they had a plan.

[waterloowarrior]

For the Record as all of you figh over whether this is a good highway route or not, I am not sure all of you are aware what the Master plan for this highway is. According to Places to Grow this section of Highway 7 is the first step in the creation of a new highway that spans from Waterloo Region to the Markam Area. The idea behind this is to eventually use this highway as an alternate route for the 401. this is bacause over the next 20 years the 401 will not be able to support the traffic.

I do Agree that a new transit system would a better option but face it look where we live and the mind set of the people in this country. you will always have this vehicle problem and it is better that they are atleast planning for it now rather than waiting for the traffic and infrastructure disaster of the future. This country and this province are 10-20 years behind on their infrastructure... its about time they had a plan.

It's planned as a future transportation corridor, not a highway. It could mean rail improvements instead. The EA is just getting started
http://www.gta-west.com/index.html

[jcollins]

Highway between Kitchener, Guelph becoming the road more travelled

September 20, 2008
JEFF OUTHIT
RECORD STAFF

There are almost 3,000 more road warriors among us, travelling to jobs outside Waterloo Region.

New data from the 2006 census shows 30,300 residents commuting to outside jobs, up from 27,470 cross-border commuters in 2001.

Guelph is the top commuter destination by far.

There are now 12,480 residents who travel to Wellington County for work. This exceeds all commuters to Toronto and to the regions of Peel, Halton and York.

Since 1996, commuting to Wellington has soared 54 per cent. If you add the reverse commute (Wellington residents heading to jobs here), there are 21,945 people travelling between the communities every working day.

Many drive Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph, which at rush hour is more like a parking lot. Others flee the overwhelmed highway for country roads that were never designed to carry them.

As commuter traffic grows, it's galling that Ontario is taking forever to replace Highway 7.

A new freeway, studied since 1989, finally got the green light last year. Detailed design work is underway, but construction is not expected before 2010.

The new freeway will take at least five years to build, costing at least $300 million and possibly more than $400 million by completion.

There's another notable revelation about commuters in the 2006 census. The long drive into the Greater Toronto Area on Highway 401 has flatlined.

The latest census found 10,665 residents heading to jobs in Peel, Toronto, Halton and York. That's up from 10,345 commuters in 2001, a minor increase of just three per cent.

Many local politicians don't want this region to become a bedroom community for greater Toronto. This does not seem to be happening with any vigour.

The local economy, it appears, has been providing jobs to keep residents at home. In fact, it's luring more outsiders.

The 2006 census found 5,155 residents of the Greater Toronto Area who commute to jobs here. While this is just half the flow from here to there, it's up 55 per cent since 2001.

There's now a better balance to the commuter flow between this region and greater Toronto.

Keep in mind, these numbers are two years old and the economy has struggled since. But what happened to commuting patterns between 2001 and 2006 is good news.

Jeff Outhit can be reached at 519-894-2250 ext. 2654 or jouthit@therecord.com

[notmyfriends]

The whole problem of highway 7 could apparently be solved by a specific set of 9465 people trading houses with each other.

[mark76]

The whole problem of highway 7 could apparently be solved by a specific set of 9465 people trading houses with each other.

lol,how many people would want to trade??

however, to ease congestion a bit ,I know its different municipality and seems GO and VIA will take another decade to bring here why not GRT and Guelph transit ( if there is enough political will and common sense) to introduce to commuters some sort of bus transit ( not Greyhound).

Come on people, is that really hard to do it??

[Cambridgite]

lol,how many people would want to trade??

however, to ease congestion a bit ,I know its different municipality and seems GO and VIA will take another decade to bring here why not GRT and Guelph transit ( if there is enough political will and common sense) to introduce to commuters some sort of bus transit ( not Greyhound).

Come on people, is that really hard to do it??

Well, as much as I think the best answer is living close to work, we can't always change that and may have to accomodate people's commuting to avoid a worst-case scenario. I do think they'll eventually need this highway 7 no matter how you look at it, but it seems rather rediculous that Guelph and the Region of Waterloo haven't looked at a joint partnership for transit routes yet.

The whole problem of highway 7 could apparently be solved by a specific set of 9465 people trading houses with each other.

:tup:

[Cambridgite]

New data from the 2006 census shows 30,300 residents commuting to outside jobs, up from 27,470 cross-border commuters in 2001.

Given the population increase of about 37,000 in that time period, another 3,000 outcommuters is not bad at all.

There's another notable revelation about commuters in the 2006 census. The long drive into the Greater Toronto Area on Highway 401 has flatlined.

The latest census found 10,665 residents heading to jobs in Peel, Toronto, Halton and York. That's up from 10,345 commuters in 2001, a minor increase of just three per cent.

Many local politicians don't want this region to become a bedroom community for greater Toronto. This does not seem to be happening with any vigour.

The local economy, it appears, has been providing jobs to keep residents at home. In fact, it's luring more outsiders.

The 2006 census found 5,155 residents of the Greater Toronto Area who commute to jobs here. While this is just half the flow from here to there, it's up 55 per cent since 2001.

There's now a better balance to the commuter flow between this region and greater Toronto.

This is a very interesting revelation that runs counter to conventional wisdom. I am actually quite surprised to see such an almost non-existent increase in the number of people commuting to the GTA. If you convert that into percentage terms, the proportion of people in Waterloo Region commuting to the GTA has actually declined. And a 55% increase in reverse commuting is a startling change.

So why does this run counter to conventional wisdom then? There are still large numbers of people moving here from the GTA, and a number of them do commute. Does anyone else think the flatlining is caused by job changes for former commuters since the last census, or commuters moving back to Toronto because of soaring gas prices?

Keep in mind, these numbers are two years old and the economy has struggled since. But what happened to commuting patterns between 2001 and 2006 is good news.

Well, the Toronto and Guelph economies have been struggling too, so I think this is a bit of a moot point.

[Bauer_buyer]

Highway between Kitchener, Guelph becoming the road more travelled

September 20, 2008
JEFF OUTHIT
RECORD STAFF

There are almost 3,000 more road warriors among us, travelling to jobs outside Waterloo Region.

New data from the 2006 census shows 30,300 residents commuting to outside jobs, up from 27,470 cross-border commuters in 2001.

Guelph is the top commuter destination by far.

There are now 12,480 residents who travel to Wellington County for work. This exceeds all commuters to Toronto and to the regions of Peel, Halton and York.

Since 1996, commuting to Wellington has soared 54 per cent. If you add the reverse commute (Wellington residents heading to jobs here), there are 21,945 people travelling between the communities every working day.

Many drive Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph, which at rush hour is more like a parking lot. Others flee the overwhelmed highway for country roads that were never designed to carry them.

As commuter traffic grows, it's galling that Ontario is taking forever to replace Highway 7.

A new freeway, studied since 1989, finally got the green light last year. Detailed design work is underway, but construction is not expected before 2010.

The new freeway will take at least five years to build, costing at least $300 million and possibly more than $400 million by completion.

There's another notable revelation about commuters in the 2006 census. The long drive into the Greater Toronto Area on Highway 401 has flatlined.

The latest census found 10,665 residents heading to jobs in Peel, Toronto, Halton and York. That's up from 10,345 commuters in 2001, a minor increase of just three per cent.

Many local politicians don't want this region to become a bedroom community for greater Toronto. This does not seem to be happening with any vigour.

The local economy, it appears, has been providing jobs to keep residents at home. In fact, it's luring more outsiders.

The 2006 census found 5,155 residents of the Greater Toronto Area who commute to jobs here. While this is just half the flow from here to there, it's up 55 per cent since 2001.

There's now a better balance to the commuter flow between this region and greater Toronto.

Keep in mind, these numbers are two years old and the economy has struggled since. But what happened to commuting patterns between 2001 and 2006 is good news.

Jeff Outhit can be reached at 519-894-2250 ext. 2654 or jouthit@therecord.com



You know this might seem a bit out of line but all this traffic could be reduced if a more creative approach were to be taken.
I'm thinking that a special rail line between Guelph and K.W. might be an answer to the problem.The trains could deposit passengers into one of many
"depots" that are even now being planned by the Regional Transit Authority as it will tie into the new proposed LTR being planned.
Is this not the answer to our delema?
Rail lines would eliminate pollution, reduce traffic congestion, use less land, cause less disruption...what do you think...you know what I'm patenting this idea
Jim H.Waterloo

[gghtransit]

You know this might seem a bit out of line but all this traffic could be reduced if a more creative approach were to be taken.
I'm thinking that a special rail line between Guelph and K.W. might be an answer to the problem.The trains could deposit passengers into one of many
"depots" that are even now being planned by the Regional Transit Authority as it will tie into the new proposed LTR being planned.
Is this not the answer to our delema?
Rail lines would eliminate pollution, reduce traffic congestion, use less land, cause less disruption...what do you think...you know what I'm patenting this idea
Jim H.Waterloo

The most realistic rail option is to bring GO Trains into Kitchener and connect it to the proposed Rapid Transit Line at the Victoria Street Station (BTW, LRT is only one of two options still on the table, BRT is the other, no decision has yet been made). There's no other realistic options for connecting the rail line to any other rapid transit stations because there are no other rapid transit stations planned anywhere near the rail line, so you've got one option...use the existing rail line for intercity trains to Guelph and it just happens to cross the Rapid Transit line at King and Victoria, so that's where they connect.

[notmyfriends]

The most realistic rail option is to bring GO Trains into Kitchener and connect it to the proposed Rapid Transit Line at the Victoria Street Station (BTW, LRT is only one of two options still on the table, BRT is the other, no decision has yet been made). There's no other realistic options for connecting the rail line to any other rapid transit stations because there are no other rapid transit stations planned anywhere near the rail line, so you've got one option...use the existing rail line for intercity trains to Guelph and it just happens to cross the Rapid Transit line at King and Victoria, so that's where they connect.

So the LRT would be underground at that point?

[gghtransit]

So the LRT would be underground at that point?

Again, could still be either LRT or BRT, but I doubt the Rapid Transit Line would be underground, although a grade-seperation with the railway has been planned for many years (King to go under the railway).

[mark76]

ok lets imagine GO and LRT will be there in like 2014.
Thats future and I hope is going to be that way.

current: 2008 -its a mess on hwy 7.

what Region of Waterloo and Wellington can do for K-W and Guelph for residents of both to ease pain on highway 7 ??

I am surprised that those two municipalities didnt meet together for this issue.Ok what is it??
Being stubborn, ignorant or selfish??

Why not run busses ( as a temporary solution before GO and LRT) to from Charles St. Terminal along Victoria St. to Guelph??Give people some options.
Why dont try something first??

[notmyfriends]

Just guessing, but maybe Greyhound probably has some type of rights agreement for runs between kitchener and guelph?

[jcollins]

Highway 7 gets carpool lot, new pavement

August 22, 2009

It’s a baby step worth trying. A carpool parking lot will be built at the site of the former Breslau hotel, 300 metres south of Highway 7.

The small gravel lot, just east of Kitchener, may open by next month. It will have space for 25 cars. The idea, proposed by regional Coun. Jim Wideman, is that commuters to Guelph can park there and share rides.

The lot will be lit. It will be plowed in the winter. It will have a sign. There will be no other services, and no special security.

The lot is in the middle of the Breslau neighbourhood, at 41 Woolwich St. S. Planners say cars will be visible from the street.

It’s not known how many Highway 7 commuters will use the lot, if any. But there’s a large potential market. A 2006 survey found 3,700 residents of Kitchener, Waterloo, Wellesley and Woolwich who commute to Guelph jobs.

Waterloo regional council plans to operate the lot for a year, then decide if it’s worth continuing.

Taxpayers will spend about $55,000 to prepare it, mostly to install lights. It may cost $7,000 a year to maintain, mostly to clear snow.

That’s not chump change. But it won’t drain public coffers.

The publicly-owned lot is too small to ease Highway 7 traffic. But a few commuters might find it useful. If it’s popular, planners can look for a bigger, better site. If not, it was worth trying.

The hope is that if commuters use it, the province can later be persuaded to add a carpool lot to the new Highway 7 that’s been approved, but not built, between Kitchener and Guelph. The new highway is planned to run just north of the current highway.

As for the current Highway 7, it’s being resurfaced in Kitchener, for more than four kilometres between Frederick and Fountain streets. That’s your stimulus dollars at work, over $4 million worth.

Paving is done only in the evenings, to limit traffic impacts. But curb repairs must be done during the day, the project manager says. This means closing curb lanes, outside the morning and afternoon rush hours.

Expect frustrating delays. Warning signs are up on the edges and on two major crossroads. Curb repairs may be completed within two weeks. Paving may continue into October.

Highway 7 will be in better shape when the work is done. But the road will still be overwhelmed.

[jcollins]

Its too bad that council is spending ~$60,000 on a project they admit might not work at all.

Especially when the project, may eliminate some driving, but as they said, may not. I'd rather see them provide alternative options for driving. Not sure what that'd be though. 2011 and GO can't come soon enough.

I hope I'm wrong about this and a lot of people use the new lot.

[zanate]

I hope I'm wrong about this and a lot of people use the new lot.

It sounds like it won't be able to keep more than a grand total of 25 cars off the road each day.

If I felt like biking to Guelph without fighting my way out of town I'd be interested... drive out to Breslau, park and cut north to one of the side roads to make my crossing.

[taylortbb]

Its too bad that council is spending ~$60,000 on a project they admit might not work at all.

Especially when the project, may eliminate some driving, but as they said, may not. I'd rather see them provide alternative options for driving. Not sure what that'd be though. 2011 and GO can't come soon enough.

I hope I'm wrong about this and a lot of people use the new lot.

Carpool lots have been successful in other places. I think it's a pretty reasonable small-scale trial of the idea, see if it gains any traction here.

What they should do is implement a Guelph-GRT transit link. Something that's basically an express from the Charles terminal to the equivalent in Guelph. Maybe add stops at the edge of both cities, but try and keep the number down.

I've heard that there are some legal problems with doing this, but I'm not sure what they'd be. GRT is licensed to operate anywhere in the region being a regional service. Operating in Guelph shouldn't be too hard, it's done all the time in the GTA. There might be a problem with passing through Wellington County, but I can't really see Wellington county objecting to Guelph Transit/GRT being given licenses to operate through Wellington county.

[mark76]

taylor,I agree on GRT-Guelph Transit link ,I said that a year ago.

Makes sense since so many people commuting from k-w to Guelph.

With some good will, I think something like that is possible.

[dunkalunk]

As much as I would like to see a Kitchener-Guelph route happen and also a Hespeler and Eagle-Guelph route happen, I just can't see GRT busses being run out there. I mostly can't imagine people wanting to sit on a metal seat or stand for 40 minutes stuck in the morning rush on Highway 7 or 24.

The service could and I think should be branded something else. If we could convince GO to start those routes out here, (start with a brand people know) or do it ourselves with coach busses but same payment methods as GO, I think it could become very successful, and would be an important step in building a ridership base for GO trains between the three cities (the rail lines are already there to make it happen.)

[taylortbb]

GO makes a nice premium service, but it's expensive as a result. There are GO trains in Toronto that will get you downtown faster than the subway, and some commuters like them, but many people also just "rough" the subway (probably less comfortable than GRT during the morning rush) for the 40 minutes it takes.

I think even with GO trains it makes sense to have a GRT bus link, it would be more affordable and more frequent.

Buses running every 15 minutes or half hour don't have to capture a substantial portion of the commuters to still be reasonably full. I suspect with how unenjoyable that drive is you'd get more than a few people that would rather not bother driving.

[smably]

GRT to Guelph is totally viable.

I grew up in Sooke (a town of around 10,000 near Victoria, BC), and we had all-day bus service out there. I actually rode transit home for most of high school. My trip was more than 20 km, and the bus was often packed, so much so that they had to run double-deckers on many of the trips (no kidding).

My dad commutes to work in Victoria on BC Transit too -- that's around 40 km, and I gather that the buses are pretty busy. Check out the schedule (http://www.bctransit.com/regions/vic/schedules/schedule.cfm?p=dir.text&route=61:1&day=1&).

(P.S. GO isn't really that expensive. Based on fares for trips of similar distance, it should cost around $5 each way to/from Guelph, the same as a cash fare on each local system. It does become more expensive if you have to connect to local transit on one or both ends of the trip, though.)

[taylortbb]

$5 each way sounds pretty expensive for those of us that have GRT transit passes. That means $12.50 instead of $2.50 for short trip for me (assuming 1 Guelph Transit fare, it's a short trip). But you are right, compared to VIA GO is pretty cheap.