[NewUrbanist]

From Morrison (3rd-10th) & Broadway (Washington-Taylor):

Aren't most of those parcels already taken by "pretty stable" retailers/restaurants? I drove by there today & could only see a small amount of lease space that needs a new tenant (i.e.- doesn't currently have one or one that needs replacement)

-When/is the Ross store getting a facelift still?
-What could they be planning for the (actual) courthouse? Many separate high end retailers i guess. Does anything similar in other cities have something like this?


Ross was given an uplift on the backside of the store. It is housed in two buildings, and the West side entrance was spruced up. Nothing will happen on the east side or the interior, unfortunately.

I can't imagine changing the courthouse into anything... I think it should remain as it is... a stately historic civic building in the center of the city. It is a great link to the past, and should maintain it's use.

[Okstate]

^ for some reason I thought Ross was completely renovating their exterior...maybe i just read into it too much.

[scleeb]

Some insight into the Ross Facade Upgrade- When the 620 Building (The western building Ross occupies) was sold in 2006, serious structural deficiencies were identified during the due diligence phase. The 1956 removal of the interior walls between the two buildings Ross occupies created an unsafe lateral weakness. A shear wall was needed inside the 620 Building to correct the problem. Additionally, the ceramic/concrete veneer, added to the building in 1956, infilled the original plate glass windows. This infill caused an unacceptable weak story condition, and also needed to be repaired. Once these deficiencies were identified by the new building owners, they used the opportunity to repair the defects and improve the facade of the building. Incidentally, it should be noted that Ross fought the Landlord's repairs/improvements every step of the way.

[hossboss85]

^ Good to know, scleeb. :)

I work in the 620 Building! (Not the Ross part, fortunately.)

[Downtown_Gal]

I was recently sent the list below of some of the stores that have closed up recently or will be closing soon. I am so ready for this economy to turn back around... :(


Imp on Alberta
Aubergine in the Pearl
Bee & Thistle in the Pearl (I'm very sad about this one)
Henny Penny in the Pearl
Hello Portland in NW
Cheeky B in the Pearl
The Paper Garden in NE

[dkealoha]

I was recently sent the list below of some of the stores that have closed up recently or will be closing soon. I am so ready for this economy to turn back around... :(


Imp on Alberta
Aubergine in the Pearl
Bee & Thistle in the Pearl (I'm very sad about this one)
Henny Penny in the Pearl
Hello Portland in NW
Cheeky B in the Pearl
The Paper Garden in NE


Cheeky B closed?!!?! I liked that store... :-(

[Downtown_Gal]

I guess it is open through the end of March while they sell everything they can... even the light fixtures and stuff like that. Very sad.

[MarkDaMan]

Friday, March 27, 2009
Small stores close as sales plummet
Vacancy rates rise in Portland retail corridors
Portland Business Journal - by Andy Giegerich Business Journal staff writer
Media

After 12 years, The Cat’s Meow is closing its doors.

Owner Linda Wion’s Southeast Hawthorne retail shop, which caters to cat owners, couldn’t survive December’s ice storm. Sales dropped 66 percent last year.

“As fun as it is, it’s frivolous retail,” Wion said. “People are worried about losing their jobs and they’re concerned about their finances. We did not have a December, and gift stores survive on that during the year.”

Small shops like Wion’s continue to suffer through the deepening recession. With no end in sight and retail vacancy rates in small spaces skyrocketing, many more could go under.

Northwest Portland’s Nob Hill district has been hit the hardest. About 6.3 percent of retail spaces under 25,000 square feet are empty, an 85 percent increase from 2008’s first quarter.

Many stores along Northwest 23rd Avenue are struggling.

l 23rd Avenue Books closed in January after 29 years. Hello Portland, a quirky gift shop, closed last year after five years of retail wackiness.

l Zelda’s Shoe Bar, at 633 N.W. 23rd Ave., now shares space next door with women’s clothing store Elizabeth Street as owner Libby Hartung seeks to defray a 25 percent sales drop last year.

l Further south, Sammy’s Restaurant & Bar sits vacant, its shoddily constructed bar splintering and its floor warping from a leaky roof.

Portland Mayor Sam Adams calls the situation dire.

“The independent neighborhood retailers are swamped with economic pressures,” Adams said. “A lot of them can’t wait for this tsunami to end.”

Vacancies are up in other key shopping districts as well. Some 4.3 percent of retail spots in the Pearl District are empty. Vacancies in the Belmont and Hawthorne neighborhoods are up 25 percent. In Mississippi and Alberta, they’ve risen 16 percent.

Oregon lost 4,000 retail jobs from January to February, a 2.1 percent drop. The state’s retail workforce has shrunk by 6.8 percent in the past year.

Thanks to trickle-down effects, retail sales provide a clear economic bellwether. When retailers don’t sell goods, wholesalers cannot distribute them. When wholesalers aren’t moving products, manufacturers and suppliers produce fewer goods.

When suppliers don’t produce goods, the transportation industry sits idle.

“As people get more conservative, it manifests itself in retail sales and that’s what’s happening here,” said Sue Iggulden, Portland-based managing director for Colliers International’s real estate management services division. “We’ve been watching this downward trend for the better part of a year.”

For Wion, the downturn came quickly.

Since 2006, she’d mulled selling the Cat’s Meow to a buyer who’d amp its online sales but maintain the store’s physical presence. No buyers had arrived when sales began slowly declining last fall. Then came the ice storm.

“The economy really put me over the edge,” she said. “When it came time to buckle down, there was nothing to buckle in with.”

At least Wion has a fallback. She’s a Prudential Northwest Properties Realtor who’s become busier as the housing market slowly reheats.

Sales at Urban Wineworks near the Pearl District grew 20 percent annually through each of owner Reuel Fish’s first eight years as a retailer. Suddenly, by year-end 2008, revenue dropped 33 percent.

With economic prospects low, Fish closed up and began liquidating his stock. He will now oversee a vineyard near Yamhill.

“I’ve heard a lot of retailers complain about the weather, but that doesn’t explain why everyone had a bad January,” he said.

Many retailers are surviving month to month, said Nick Stanton, a Commercial Realty Advisors LLC broker who showed the Sammy’s spot to prospective restaurant owners.

“A year ago, this space would have been leased almost instantly,” he said, watching the would-be clients inspect the outdated kitchen. “But now, there are people who get to the lease phase who can’t get financing.”
Growing companies adopt creative strategies

Not all retailers are feeling the economic pain.

The Cat’s Meow aside, most stores along Southeast Hawthorne Boulevard, where neighbors and tourists alike flock to specialty retailers, remain relatively strong. Just seven empty spaces sit between Southeast 14th and 41st avenues.

One of those spaces, the old Daily Grind building at Southeast 41st Avenue and Hawthorne, is slated to host a New Seasons store by 2010. The grocer’s operators are hammering out parking details: It wants to accommodate 41 cars, as opposed to the 13 cars its lot can currently hold.

Sales at MuseArt+Design on Southeast Hawthorne Boulevard rose 25 percent over last year’s monthly figures. Owner Peter Rossing, a neighborhood business activist, said while his fellow retailers worry about the economy, most feel they can sustain more bottom-line hits.

“Things are actually pretty good over here,” Rossing said. “Things are poised to take off when the economy gets better.”

Muse, at 4224 S.E. Hawthorne Blvd., is one of several businesses recently sprouting at the street’s eastern end.

“It used to be a mess here, but it’s changing,” Rossing said.

On the other side of town in Northeast Portland, sales at Broadway Books have risen 2.5 percent this year.

To help get there, owner Roberta Dyer cut her hours, closing at 7 p.m. instead of 9 p.m. However, she credits her solid performance to “buy local” promotions that steer neighborhood residents to smaller stores.

Some 68 cents of every dollar spent in stores owned by Portlanders goes back into the community, compared to 43 cents of each dollar spent in a chain.

“I really have faith in Portland consumers,” Dyer said.

Revenue at Portland’s two Oh Baby lingerie stores rose 20 percent from a year ago. The figure includes a Northwest 23rd Avenue location that’s attracting customers even as nearby retailers shut their doors.

The stores are doing well because sex may be a recession-proof business, said owner Laura Fitzpatrick.

“People will always get married and will always need lingerie,” she said. “And sex is always going to be a part of our world. When things are bad, people tend to stay home and stay close to their spouses. It’s easy to guess what happens then.”

agiegerich@bizjournals.com | 503-219-3419
http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/03/30/story6.html

[edirp]

Thursday, April 2, 2009

Storables files Chapter 11

Portland Business Journal
The recession has claimed a prominent Portland retailer.

Storables Inc. sought protection from creditors by filing under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code in U.S. District Court of Oregon late Tuesday.

Chapter 11 allows financially troubled companies to reorganize by shedding debt and paring their operations.

Bankruptcy courts have wide discretion to void leases and other legally-binding contracts.

The private company is owned by Dodd Fischer and employs about 220 people at its Portland headquarters and the eight stores it operates.

The stores are in Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, California and Arizona. In court filings, Storables said it has between 200 and 999 creditors. It estimated its assets between $1 million and $10 million and its liabilities between $500,000 and $1 million.

Its five largest unsecured creditors are Village Square Dana Park LLC in Las Vegas ($93,857), Interdesign Inc. ($22,260), Schulte Corp. ($18,601), Iris ($17,418) and Richards Homewares Inc. ($17,266).

Albert N. Kennedy of Tonkon Torp LLP is Storables’ bankruptcy attorney. His phone number is 503-802-2013.

[Downtown_Gal]

This all really sucks... when the economy finally does turn back around we are going to have no where fun to shop.

[JordanL]

This all really sucks... when the economy finally does turn back around we are going to have no where fun to shop.

:sly:

As someone looking for work, I can say that is one of the most assinine concerns I've heard during this entire economic bullshit.

[Downtown_Gal]

Sorry if I offended you... I was being superficial and I guess it was a poor attempt to make light of a really bad situation. Point taken though.

[zilfondel]

Storables is going?! Aww... ****!

[pdxf]

:sly:
As someone looking for work, I can say that is one of the most assinine concerns I've heard during this entire economic bullshit.

I've heard many, far more assinine comments during this economic downturn. Downtown_Gal's comment didn't even register on my assinine meter at all and I don't see how this comment could have seriously offended anyone.

[ue]

.

[sopdx]

Great...really happy for you. I hear they've got a special on foot longs.

[MarkDaMan]

I thought I read somewhere that Storables was closing the Scottsdale store, but the rest of them will remain open?

[2oh1]

:sly:

As someone looking for work, I can say that is one of the most assinine concerns I've heard during this entire economic bullshit.

It's actually not.

Part of what makes Portland so special is the quality of life we have here. All of our funky local shops and restaurants are part of that. When the recession comes to an end, we may find we've lost more than we realized.

And let's not forget, local shops put more dollars back into the local economy than chains. "Some 68 cents of every dollar spent in stores owned by Portlanders goes back into the community, compared to 43 cents of each dollar spent in a chain." These things matter.

Oh, and by the way, every store that can't keep its doors open equates to more people looking for work. That means more people competing for even fewer jobs, plus fewer options for people who can't find work in their chosen field and need *something* to at least help pay bills while they continue to look for a way back into the career of their choice.

[2oh1]

I thought I read somewhere that Storables was closing the Scottsdale store, but the rest of them will remain open?

I sure hope so. I love that store. It's neat-freak-bliss!

[JordanL]

Sorry if I offended you... I was being superficial and I guess it was a poor attempt to make light of a really bad situation. Point taken though.

I didn't think you did it on purpose, it's just frustrating... the City of Portland has done a lot of work adding people to the area, and hardly any work adding jobs, and it shows. This isn't just because of the recession, it's because Portland, and the people in it, seem to think that money falls on them from the sky no matter what they do.

We're the 31st largest metro in the country, but we have a pithy amount of corporate investment. Do people here really think that its for any reason except that Portland does a poor job comparatively of attracting jobs?

Now we're set on biotech and "green tech", which of course isn't bad, but what am I supposed to do now? Go get a new degree so that I can get the jobs that the city is intent on adding?

Now it seems at the expense of other jobs?

People here have consistently voiced opinions about just getting rid of a lot of the industrial space for "nicer" things.

Jobs need to be a much bigger part of regional planning because we're clearly doing a piss poor job of it. This is the second recession in ten years that we've far outpaced the nation at. Does anyone really think that's a coincidence?

This is just really frustrating for a person who's spent 40 hours a week for four months looking for work.

The quirky shops keep Portland like "Portland"? Fine. You know what else does? The people that live here. And people can't live here if we don't fix our broken economic model for the region.

If anyone really thinks we're going to see explosive population growth without explosive job growth, they're delusional...

And comments like the one you made... they have nothing to do with the frustration that I'm talking about, but it just reminds me so much of the way our City treats jobs... like they're something that just sprouts from the ground because you command it so.

Portland is such a liveable place... I just wish I could afford to live here.

[bvpcvm]

We're the 31st largest metro in the country

Sorry to nitpick, but we're actually #23, and have been since I was a kid (and read things like lists of metro area populations in the World Almanac).

[JordanL]

Sorry to nitpick, but we're actually #23, and have been since I was a kid (and read things like lists of metro area populations in the World Almanac).

???

Huh... Maybe we're the 31st largest market? I was going off the list of markets for pro-sports (not a great measure I admit).

The point is even more emphatic if we're the 23rd largest metro though...

[65MAX]

bvpcvm is correct, we are #23. Here is the link (as of July 2007).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

If you're ranking CSAs (Combined Statistical Areas), we're #21. Riverside merges with LA and Baltimore merges with DC.

AND, if you include Salem with Portland, which was done up until 2000 (the Bush administration changed the rules, so one more thing they f'd up), we'd be #20... ahead of Pittsburgh, but right behind Denver, which still combines with Boulder.

Not sure where you got the #31 ranking. How is a "sports market" defined?

[JordanL]

bvpcvm is correct, we are #23. Here is the link (as of July 2007).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

If you're ranking CSAs (Combined Statistical Areas), we're #21. Riverside merges with LA and Baltimore merges with DC.

AND, if you include Salem with Portland, which was done up until 2000 (the Bush administration changed the rules, so one more thing they f'd up), we'd be #20... ahead of Pittsburgh, but right behind Denver, which still combines with Boulder.

Not sure where you got the #31 ranking. How is a "sports market" defined?

I don't know... clearly the number I was looking at was flawed.

Regardless, the point I was making is even more emphasized with a larger CSA.

[pdxf]

Interesting post JordanL, I definitely feel for you and best of luck with the job search. What is your degree in?

A couple thoughts and questions:

We're the 31st largest metro, with a “pithy amount of corporate investment”. How much corporate investment do #30 and #32 have? Do we really have less corporate investment or is this perception?

What is it about bringing green jobs to Portland that is at the expense of other jobs?

“We outpaced the nation at it. Does anyone really think that's a coincidence?” - There is an assumption here that Portland's approach on business is soley to blame for this, but could there be other reason for this(for one, it seems like people keep moving here regardless of whether there are jobs or not, and I'm not sure that business growth could ever really keep up)?

Does Portland actively try to get more people to move here, as you suggest in your first paragraph. I would argue no, that Portland has tried to make a livable city for the citizens, and as other people discover this, they want to live here. Perhaps Portland feels these recessions more because we've been too successful at making a city that people want to live in?

[brandonpdx]

[QUOTE=JordanL;4174693]I didn't think you did it on purpose, it's just frustrating... the City of Portland has done a lot of work adding people to the area, and hardly any work adding jobs, and it shows. This isn't just because of the recession, it's because Portland, and the people in it, seem to think that money falls on them from the sky no matter what they do.

QUOTE]

Who thinks this? I don't know anybody in the Portland metro area who thinks money falls from the sky no matter what they do. Look, I'm sorry you don't have a job, and I'm sure you will soon enough, but how about instead of blaming someone or something you take reasonability for yourself? Yes, Portland has a higher unemployment average than the nation but 9 out of 10 people still have a job. There's no easy way to explain why we have high unemployment. Some theories are that many people move here jobless and count as the unemployed. Nevertheless, lighten up as much as you can and don't attack somebody because they say they want to have fun! Life is so short and I'd rather spend most of my hours having fun than bitter and frustrated. I know it may be more difficult to see the fun in life when you're down but it will come around. Good luck in finding a job, I'm sure you will soon.

[downtownpdx]

This region gives tax breaks all the time to companies like Intel, and I know Mayor Adams last year revamped/lowered the city business taxes. Nobody takes jobs for granted around here, I'm sure, but I don't want to see Portland become another Houston and destroy our quality of life for economic gain.

The last recession hurt us badly because of the concentration of tech jobs that vanished with the dot com bust. This time, we're hurting b/c of the state's higher-than-average share of manufacturing, and the timber industry being pulled down with the housing collapse. But we fared better than most in the 1990-1991 recession, so it just depends on which industries are shedding jobs.

I don't say this thinking it makes anyone whose jobless feel better, but I have a friend in LA who's also been looking for over four months now, for example, so this is not just a Portland 'business environment' problem. And Oregon outpaced the nation in the last growth period, and will probably do so again this time -- Intel and Nike are in good positions for growth, and there's the area's growing concentration of green jobs, like SolarWorld. I agree, though, I would like to see more employment growth in the central city, and I really think more investment in PSU would spurn some research- and start-up - related activity.

[Downtown_Gal]

From Portland Business Journal:

Pioneer Place owner files bankruptcy

General Growth Properties Inc., which owns several properties in Oregon — including Pioneer Place in Portland — has filed for Chapter 11 federal bankruptcy protection.

General Growth listed $29.5 billion in total assets and about $27.3 billion of debts in its bankruptcy petition, making it the largest real estate bankruptcy in U.S. history.

Chicago-based General Growth (NYSE: GGP), whose shopping mall holdings include Clackamas Town Center and Gateway Mall in Portland, Rogue Valley Mall in Medford, Gateway Mall in Springfield and the Salem Center, said in an announcement Thursday that it had sought bankruptcy protection only after being unable to refinance or extend maturing debt. The company said all day-to-day operations and business of its shopping malls would continue as usual while it reorganizes.

General Growth owns or manages more than 200 malls, several planned communities and a collection of commercial office buildings. In Oregon, its shopping centers include Bailey Hills in Eugene and Division Crossing and Halsey Crossing in Gresham.

"We don’t expect any of our visitors to notice any difference in our quality of service to customers,” CEO Adam Metz said in a news release. “Our tenant retailers, restaurants, movie theaters and everyone at our malls stand ready to serve you, just as we have in the past.”

The company had been struggling to pay off debt it owed since acquiring Columbia, Md.-based Rouse Co. in 2004 for $12.6 billion.

Since its decline, General Growth has made a number of management changes, such as replacing founder and current chairman John Bucksbaum (whose family is still a major investor) as CEO with Metz, and replacing its chief financial officer.

The company has received a $375 million financing commitment from New York-based Pershing Square Capital Management LP, which it says it will use during the Chapter 11 process. It also is seeking approval to make payments to keep its shopping centers up and running and do other functions such as pay employees.

General Growth said earlier in the year it might be forced to seek bankruptcy protection from its creditors as it struggles to refinance debt.

The company is scheduled to hold a media conference on Thursday to discuss the filing.

[rsbear]

... the City of Portland has done a lot of work adding people to the area, and hardly any work adding jobs, and it shows. This isn't just because of the recession, it's because Portland, and the people in it, seem to think that money falls on them from the sky no matter what they do.

We're the 31st largest metro in the country, but we have a pithy amount of corporate investment. Do people here really think that its for any reason except that Portland does a poor job comparatively of attracting jobs?

Now we're set on biotech and "green tech", which of course isn't bad, but what am I supposed to do now? Go get a new degree so that I can get the jobs that the city is intent on adding?

Now it seems at the expense of other jobs?

People here have consistently voiced opinions about just getting rid of a lot of the industrial space for "nicer" things.

Jobs need to be a much bigger part of regional planning because we're clearly doing a piss poor job of it. This is the second recession in ten years that we've far outpaced the nation at. Does anyone really think that's a coincidence?

This is just really frustrating for a person who's spent 40 hours a week for four months looking for work.

The quirky shops keep Portland like "Portland"? Fine. You know what else does? The people that live here. And people can't live here if we don't fix our broken economic model for the region.

If anyone really thinks we're going to see explosive population growth without explosive job growth, they're delusional...

And comments like the one you made... they have nothing to do with the frustration that I'm talking about, but it just reminds me so much of the way our City treats jobs... like they're something that just sprouts from the ground because you command it so.

Portland is such a liveable place... I just wish I could afford to live here.

I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time finding a job. But it is tough in other areas, too. It took my partner nearly four months to find a job here in LA.

I'm curious as to your suggestions for Portland to improve the local job market. What are your ideas?

[JordanL]

I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time finding a job. But it is tough in other areas, too. It took my partner nearly four months to find a job here in LA.

I'm curious as to your suggestions for Portland to improve the local job market. What are your ideas?

I thought I'd come back to this thread and add something constructive, as many people took my pervious post as a very self-oriented complaint. I want to be clear, I was trying to establish that I had seen certain things in the city and region, and that my personal experiences confirmed those things for me and allowed me to put a face on my point.

As for what I would do?

Portland needs to realize that a job is a job. The political leaders here are contiually focused on grabbing markets which are emergent. First it was hi-tech & frabrication, then biotech, now solar.

The problem is that if our unemployment figures are correct over 300,000 people in the Portland metro are looking for a job. Emergent markets are fragile and we see it everytime the economy turns south. We have very little invested in resistant markets which will see utility even when consumers all over the globe cut back on luxury spending.

There is very little push for any fundamentals here. The way Portland's politicians, and to a very large extent its voters, seek to grow our economy is precarious. We push for companies that are unproven, we push for technologies that don't have established markets, we push for "ideals" that makes investors and business leaders apprehensive. We need to take away that apprehension by reassuring them that we understand the value of their business is worth something to us just as the solar industry is.

There is nothing wrong with targetting emergent markets... but we don't really have any markets. It's not that we dream too big or anything, I just feel like we ignore the fact that there are OTHER business oportunities.

Freightliner is a great example. The plant here in Portland should never have closed. This is where Freightliner was started, and where it was based. It's not even moving to Mexico... the trucks made here are going to be made in North Carolina.

I wish I had a magic button to press, but the economy is a lot more complex than that. There is no quick fix.

[zilfondel]

Actually, since only 1/2 (on average) of the population is even in the workforce, you should divide your 300k number by 2. Even then its too high.

On the plus side, I've been seeing more job postings lately. I even landed one last week, but I'll be commuting to the suburbs. :P

[JordanL]

Actually, since only 1/2 (on average) of the population is even in the workforce, you should divide your 300k number by 2. Even then its too high.

On the plus side, I've been seeing more job postings lately. I even landed one last week, but I'll be commuting to the suburbs. :P

Yeah, I haven't been able to find a payroll job. I've been able to pay for food so far by freelancing, but it takes a lot of energy to generate those sales. At least it's something.:)

[tworivers]

Li Ning plans Portland store in challenge against Nike, Adidas
By The Oregonian
December 08, 2009, 6:37PM

Li Ning Co., China's largest footwear and apparel maker, plans to open a Portland store in January that will be its first outlet outside Asia, Reuters reports.

Li Ning competes with Nike and Adidas in mainland China. The company, controlled by ex-Olympic gymnast Li Ning, aims to become a major global brand within a decade.

Li Ning already has a research and development center in the Pearl District. Ziba Design Inc. of Portland has been helping Li Ning revamp products and design stores as the Chinese company multiplies mainland outlets.

Ziba founder Sohrab Vossoughi also advises Li Ning chief executive Zhang Zhiyong, who said this week in Hong Kong that the Portland store would test the waters for the U.S. market. Li Ning representatives in Portland could not be reached Tuesday for comment .

--The Oregonian

[bvpcvm]

Also, there are rumors on FB that H&M is opening "several" stores in PDX in mid-2010. (Go to the H&M page and look in the discussions for a thread called "Bring H&M to Portland".)

[Okstate]

Surely one of the locations would be downtown, right?

[downtownpdx]

Also, there are rumors on FB that H&M is opening "several" stores in PDX in mid-2010. (Go to the H&M page and look in the discussions for a thread called "Bring H&M to Portland".)

H&M? Nice! About time :) btw what's FB ?

Hopefully the Li Ning store opens DT. I can't imagine they'd have trouble finding a spot. Like the former Shoe Pavilion, Famous Footwear, Kitchen Kaboodle or Michelle's Piano storefronts.

[PacificNW]

▲▲ I imagine FB=Facebook....

[2oh1]

I imagine the old Kitchen Kaboodle spot will be a tough one to fill. Honestly, I don't understand why whoever owns that building didn't bend over backward to keep them there. That's already over two years of rent, gone, with no new tenant in sight if I'm not mistaken.

[downtownpdx]

▲▲ I imagine FB=Facebook....

Hee hee! Wow, I totally misread that post to say FB and H&M were opening stores. Trying so hard to figure out what store FB was ...

I don't get why Kitchen Kaboodle didn't do OK in that spot. NOW I could understand its closing with the current economy, but it happened long before the downturn.

[nobody]

Li-Ning has some cool stuff going on. Their space is going to be really nice I think. It's still heavily under construction but I have high hopes having seen it, knowing a little about the company and their plans for their stateside operations.

[Okstate]

Where is Li-Ning's retail going to be? Somewhere near their office in the Pearl maybe?

[PacificNW]

▲ I am also curious....

[2oh1]

I don't get why Kitchen Kaboodle didn't do OK in that spot. NOW I could understand its closing with the current economy, but it happened long before the downturn.

I suspect their rent was too high, not to mention that it's very hard to get shoppers to come to an upstairs store versus a ground level store - silly as that may seem. They tried to turn the downstairs entry area into a part of the store, but that meant they had to have an employee down there to make sure none of the stuff in that tiny landing was shoplifted. Personally, I loved that store. When I first moved to Portland, I made a mad dash over there because it was the closest spot I could find to buy a shower curtain. I was living at The Essex House on SW 3rd and Jefferson at the time.

It'll be very interesting to see what happens to all of the available rental space when the economy takes off again (I have to assume it will, eventually...?). I'm hoping something great moves into the old Schumacher spot, across from the library.

[2oh1]

Li-Ning has some cool stuff going on. Their space is going to be really nice I think. It's still heavily under construction but I have high hopes having seen it...

Where is it? You're talking about their store, right?

[downtownpdx]

It'll be very interesting to see what happens to all of the available rental space when the economy takes off again (I have to assume it will, eventually...?). I'm hoping something great moves into the old Schumacher spot, across from the library.

Yeah, I was thinking maybe the weird configuration of that Kitchen Kaboodle space held it back. Things will fill in once the economy turns around -- plus I think the transit mall, while not perfect, is much more attractive, clean and safe than the old bus mall, and should attract more retail in the coming years. That old Schumacher spot is nice-looking, and right near the intersection of MAX and streetcar. One spot I really wanna see get redeveloped is Park and Morrison, the old Carl Greve site. Maybe they could preserve some of the marble facade but make it a 2-story retail corner. H&M.... ? It's gonna be a hot corner, especially once PAW finally gets done. Morrison can really turn into a great street.

[nobody]

2oh1, it's on the corner of about 9th and Hoyt I believe. I'm sort of drawing a blank at the moment, but it's directly across the street to the South of Taco Del Mar if you know where that is. Really bad point of reference, I know, but since I had lunch their recently it's the best I'm coming up with.

I'm referring to the store, yes, but they also have offices above the building and a big fat painted logo/graphic on the side of the building, so I think it's pretty much their building.

[pdxman]

H&M coming to Portland
By Laura Gunderson, The Oregonian
December 18, 2009, 11:28AM
H&M, the retail store known to its fans as the Ikea of clothing, is coming to Portland.

The Swedish retailer sells hip clothing with its own labels, as well as those of big name designers, and is expected to open a store in Pioneer Place next summer.

The chain, which plans to add 225 stores this year, operates more than 1,700 stores with apparel for men, women, teens and children in 33 countries.

Much like its Swedish housewares counterpart, H&M is a destination retailer that attracts excited shoppers who'll spend the night in a sleeping bag in line before a grand opening. The company called its Seattle store opening one of the largest, but on its Web site said that the Pasadena, Calif., grand opening garnered the overnight party scene.

Last month, the retailer launched a line of Jimmy Choo shoes -- a designer made popular by the women of the HBO series "Sex and the City." The spikey shoes, sold at a limited number of H&M locations, typically cost between $175 and $1,095 at high-end retailers. They were $50 to $200 at H&M.

-- Laura Gunderson
http://blog.oregonlive.com/windowshop/2009/12/hm_coming_to_portland.html

[nobody]

A: Awesome!
B: Pioneer Place? Booooo.

[2oh1]

Phenomenal! Granted, I'd rather see H&M in a spot like the old Famous Footwear location on SW 4th, I still think having it in Pioneer Place is great news. I'll cheer anything that further improves retail in downtown.

[PacificNW]

Is the Saks men's dept. going to relocate back to the original store now that H & M is going to take over their present location?

[tworivers]

Are they going to have a street-front presence, or is the store going to be buried deep in the mall somewhere (I don't know where Saks is). I was really hoping for a two-story retail space in one of the historic buildings DT. The H&M in DC is a great example of what I was hoping for... though I'm not complaining, either way it's much better than one of the suburban malls.

[pdxtraveler]

Are they going to have a street-front presence, or is the store going to be buried deep in the mall somewhere (I don't know where Saks is). I was really hoping for a two-story retail space in one of the historic buildings DT. The H&M in DC is a great example of what I was hoping for... though I'm not complaining, either way it's much better than one of the suburban malls.

Yes, this would give them street access and multiple floors. Hopefully Sacs isn't pulling out entirely?! But that is a great place for H&M. Hopefully between that and the traffic they have generated with Forever XXI they can revive that side of the mall, it was getting pretty quiet over there.

[Downtown_Gal]

The Neat Sheet seems to be updating whenever there is any new news about this... She says probably yes to it taking over the men's Saks section. I hope that means the men's department is just moving because otherwise my husband will be a very sad man.

http://pdxneatsheet.com/neat-shop/hm-opens-portland-oregon/

[Downtown_Gal]

Don't get me wrong though, I'm very excited about them coming to PDX... especially if they have decided on a city center location. I think it will definitely bring lots of shoppers downtown.

I love shopping. :yes:

[downtownpdx]

At last! Hoping for a downtown location other than Pioneer Place... but at least it's got street-level presence which is what really matters, not just tucked away on the third level or something (or at Bridgeport Village... yikes). They will do very well here I'm sure! yaaaay!

[2oh1]

Isn't the Saks that's in Pioneer Place on multiple levels? I wonder how much of it H&M is taking over.

[PacificNW]

They are taking over the whole space....both floors. I assume the mens dept. will move back to the main store.

[edirp]

Pearl District Eddie Bauer to close.

H & M to take over space currently occupied by Saks 5th Avenue Men's Store (2 floors).

Portland's only Swatch store (Pioneer Courthouse Square) recently closed. It's being replaced by Skinnidip Yogurt.

[Okstate]

I'm surprised Eddie Bauer lasted as long as they did there.

[WestCoast]

It is a bit surprising since they just announced they wouldn't be closing any stores in Oregon.

Still, not totally shocked, store was always quiet at all hours.

[Okstate]

Whole Foods (Hollywood) is set to open Jan 11 or 12.

[WestCoast]

Adidas is closing their pearl store.

It's amazing to see businesses going out so fast.

[nobody]

Bummer.

[scleeb]

Well, I can't say this was a surprise...

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/greek_cuisina_loose_fight_with.html

I just walked by the place. It's a three ring circus with all the media.

I have conflicting opinions on this. On the one hand, I've always felt this place was a lousy place to eat. Crummy food and spotty service. And the night club was a real trouble magnet.

On the other hand, in this economy it’s a shame to be losing an established retail operation. Say what you will, that place employed a lot of folks whom are now out on the street. That is simply sad.

[mcbaby]

I remember going there in my early twenties and having ouzo poured down my throat. I'll miss it.

[2oh1]

I have conflicting opinions on this. On the one hand, I've always felt this place was a lousy place to eat. Crummy food and spotty service. And the night club was a real trouble magnet.

On the other hand, in this economy it’s a shame to be losing an established retail operation. Say what you will, that place employed a lot of folks whom are now out on the street. That is simply sad.

I have similarly conflicted opinions... I hate seeing a local icon close, and love it or hate it, the Greek Cuisina was definitely that... but if the renovations illegally turned the building into a fire hazard... hell, if any of Leonard's accusations are true...

I don't like the lack of respect on Leonard's part though: "It’s just amazing to me that Ted says the things he does,” Leonard said. “Ted operates what the fire chief and I agree is the most dangerous occupancy in the city."

...Ted? I know who he means, but it's disrespectful, and I should hope for better from a city official (...I know, I know...)

[Okstate]

Wasn't the owner of the restaurant living in the building as well?

[WestCoast]

listen, that place had crappy food and all, but it was a destination and fun place to go.

$76K lien!??? Are you kidding. This town can't drive businesses out the door fast enough.

[Delaney]

listen, that place had crappy food and all, but it was a destination and fun place to go.

$76K lien!??? Are you kidding. This town can't drive businesses out the door fast enough.

So "Ted" shouldn't have to follow building codes like every other business? the codes keep people safe. That place was not safe upstairs.

[rsbear]

This town can't drive businesses out the door fast enough.

You jumped off a ledge when you jumped to that conclusion.

[WestCoast]

i jumped off a $76,000 sized ledge I guess. :shrug:

[philopdx]

I've been here for over three years now and what strikes me is the unrelenting, incremental change in the fabric of the city. Some things are new, some things go away. Street corners change in subtle ways. I'm going to miss the purple octopus as a landmark, but I agree the food and service was hit and miss.

We're all just blowin' in the wind.

[WonderlandPark]

never cared for it in the 90s when it was strangely popular with my coworkers and now don't give a rats ass if it is gone.

[2oh1]

So "Ted" shouldn't have to follow building codes like every other business? the codes keep people safe.

Exactly.

[cab]

Ah libertarians, they all act like their unrelenting agreement with all things business has actually produced something. The entire ideology rests on the social democratic civil society underneath and yet libertarians refuse to see that. Show me one country built on libertarian values. They are nothing but free loafers living off the shared sacrifice of others thinking some how they earned everything with no help from the larger society Give me a break. The guy broke the rules of our collective civil society and some how he’s been wronged by society?

You know what, hire your own police and fire, build your own curbs, roads, infrastructure, then educate and feed your client base from birth until they can get jobs, then protect them from outside harm and build them water supply systems and electric utilities, then come back and talk about libertarian systems and tell the government to go to hell. In the mean time shut up and follow the rules.

[bvpcvm]

You know what, hire your own police and fire, build your own curbs, roads, infrastructure, then educate and feed your client base from birth until they can get jobs, then protect them from outside harm and build them water supply systems and electric utilities, then come back and talk about libertarian systems and tell the government to go to hell. In the mean time shut up and follow the rules.

I fully agree with you.

David Brooks has an interesting/worrying column (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/05/opinion/05brooks.html?ref=global-home) about the rise of the tea baggers in today's NYT. They're not quite the same as libertarians, but they definitely share the "fuck government" sentiment.

[eric cantona]

i jumped off a $76,000 sized ledge I guess. :shrug:

the greek cusina has been a serial offender of health, fire, and building codes for DECADES. i know neighbors of the Papas' family as well as people who've worked in the kitchen there and i can tell you that there is not a more deserving business to receive the attention of "Randy's hit squad" than this one.

to my understanding they cut through structural beams to install a stair to the second floor without a permit. or maybe do some research into the health code violations they've amassed. throw in the OLCC's concerns into the mix and it's a wonder we haven't had any deaths associated with this place.

Randy Leonard may be a tactless buffoon undeserving of his position in this city, but he's doing us all right on this issue.

[eric cantona]

You know what, hire your own police and fire, build your own curbs, roads, infrastructure, then educate and feed your client base from birth until they can get jobs, then protect them from outside harm and build them water supply systems and electric utilities, then come back and talk about libertarian systems and tell the government to go to hell. In the mean time shut up and follow the rules.

+1.

emphatically.

[JordanL]

Ah libertarians, they all act like their unrelenting agreement with all things business has actually produced something. The entire ideology rests on the social democratic civil society underneath and yet libertarians refuse to see that. Show me one country built on libertarian values. They are nothing but free loafers living off the shared sacrifice of others thinking some how they earned everything with no help from the larger society Give me a break. The guy broke the rules of our collective civil society and some how he’s been wronged by society?

You know what, hire your own police and fire, build your own curbs, roads, infrastructure, then educate and feed your client base from birth until they can get jobs, then protect them from outside harm and build them water supply systems and electric utilities, then come back and talk about libertarian systems and tell the government to go to hell. In the mean time shut up and follow the rules.

Wow... that was a rather unrelated and... emotional tirade. You finished?

[tworivers]

The story pasted below from this morning's NYT reminded me that I've been meaning to mention the visit I made to the H&M in DC over the holidays. It was a waste of time: the men's selection, at least, seemed totally dumbed down since the last time I was there a year ago, with a lot more American/Kmart-ish ho-hum designs. There was also a noticeably larger number of items made in China, which I am guessing is a reflection of the company's massive expansion over the last few years. Worse still, the few things that I did deem worthy of trying on (one was a beautiful button-down that required overlooking the "made in" tag) were ill-fitting. My one purchase was a nice leather belt made in Sweden. The NYT piece, and lack of response by H&M PR people, has me thinking that I may never want to set foot in one of their stores again.

A Clothing Clearance Where More Than Just the Prices Have Been Slashed

By JIM DWYER (NYT)
Published: January 5, 2010

In the bitter cold on Monday night, a man and woman picked apart a pyramid of clear trash bags, the discards of the HM clothing store that reigns in blazing plate-glass glory on 34th Street, just east of Sixth Avenue in Manhattan.

At the back entrance on 35th Street, awaiting trash haulers, were bags of garments that appear to have never been worn. And to make sure that they never would be worn or sold, someone had slashed most of them with box cutters or razors, a familiar sight outside H & M’s back door. The man and woman were there to salvage what had not been destroyed.

He worked quickly, never uttering a word. A bag was opened and eyed, and if it held something of promise, was tossed at the feet of the woman. She said her name was Pepa.

Were the clothes usually cut up before they were thrown out?

“A veces,” she said in Spanish. Sometimes.

She packed up a few items that had escaped the blade — a bright green T-shirt that said “Summer of Surf,” and a dark-blue hoodie in size 12, with a Divided label. The rest was returned to the pyramid.

It is winter. A third of the city is poor. And unworn clothing is being destroyed nightly.

A few doors down on 35th Street, hundreds of garments tagged for sale in Wal-Mart — hoodies and T-shirts and pants — were discovered in trash bags the week before Christmas, apparently dumped by a contractor for Wal-Mart that has space on the block.

Each piece of clothing had holes punched through it by a machine.

They were found by Cynthia Magnus, who attends classes at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York on Fifth Avenue and noticed the piles of discarded clothing as she walked to the subway station in Herald Square. She was aghast at the waste, and dragged some of the bags home to Brooklyn, hoping that someone would be willing to take on the job of patching the clothes and making them wearable.

A Wal-Mart spokeswoman, Melissa Hill, said the company normally donates all its unworn goods to charities, and would have to investigate why the items found on 35th Street were discarded.

During her walks down 35th Street, Ms. Magnus said, it is more common to find destroyed clothing in the H & M trash. On Dec. 7, during an early cold snap, she said, she saw about 20 bags filled with H & M clothing that had been cut up.

“Gloves with the fingers cut off,” Ms. Magnus said, reciting the inventory of ruined items. “Warm socks. Cute patent leather Mary Jane school shoes, maybe for fourth graders, with the instep cut up with a scissor. Men’s jackets, slashed across the body and the arms. The puffy fiber fill was coming out in big white cotton balls.” The jackets were tagged $59, $79 and $129.

This week, a manager in the H & M store on 34th Street said inquiries about its disposal practices had to be made to its United States headquarters. However, various officials did not respond to 10 inquiries made Tuesday by phone and e-mail.

Directly around the corner from H & M is a big collection point for New York Cares, which conducts an annual coat drive.

“We’d be glad to take unworn coats, and companies often send them to us,” said Colleen Farrell, a spokeswoman for New York Cares.

More than coats were tossed out. “The H & M thing was just ridiculous, not only clothing, but bags and bags of sturdy plastic hangers,” Ms. Magnus said. “I took a dozen of them. A girl can never have enough hangers.”

H & M, which is based in Sweden, has an executive in charge of corporate responsibility who leads the company’s sustainability efforts. On its Web site, H&M reports that to save paper, it has shrunk its shipping labels.

“How about all the solid waste generated by throwing away usable garments and plastic hangers?” Ms. Magnus asked in a letter to the executive, Ingrid Schullstrom. She volunteered to help H & M connect with a charity or agency in New York that could put the unsold items to better use than simply tossing them in the trash. So far, she said, she has gotten no response.

On Monday night, Pepa’s shopping bag held a few items. She pointed to her gray sweatpants. “From here,” she said.

How about coats?

“Maybe tomorrow,” she said.

E-mail: dwyer@nytimes.com

Original here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/nyregion/06about.html?scp=2&sq=jim%20dwyer&st=cse).

[cab]

Lots of chains going down. I think its a matter of a city population demanding something unique and different in its retail. The bridge and tunnel crowd just doesn't have the critical mass to keep many of these generic chains afloat. Long term this is NOT a bad thing. Look across Burnside between 9th and 10th and check out the full building of unique local stores surviving. There is a reason Puma and adidas failed while Rocco's pizza expanded.

[bvpcvm]

update: Clothing Retailer Says It Will No Longer Destroy Unworn Garments (NYT) (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/nyregion/07clothes.html)

[CouvScott]

Ah libertarians, they all act like their unrelenting agreement with all things business has actually produced something. The entire ideology rests on the social democratic civil society underneath and yet libertarians refuse to see that. Show me one country built on libertarian values. They are nothing but free loafers living off the shared sacrifice of others thinking some how they earned everything with no help from the larger society Give me a break. The guy broke the rules of our collective civil society and some how he’s been wronged by society?

You know what, hire your own police and fire, build your own curbs, roads, infrastructure, then educate and feed your client base from birth until they can get jobs, then protect them from outside harm and build them water supply systems and electric utilities, then come back and talk about libertarian systems and tell the government to go to hell. In the mean time shut up and follow the rules.

Usually I don't state my opinions on this page, but this is why you are one of my favorite posters.

[2oh1]

Usually I don't state my opinions on this page, but this is why you are one of my favorite posters.

+1 on that.

[PacificNW]

+2....I always make it a point to read your posts cab.....

[65MAX]

Wow... that was a rather unrelated and... emotional tirade. You finished?

No, not unrelated. This is a business owner who continually violated codes and city regulations. But you think it's OK because he's just trying to run a business? That is classic libertarianism... businesses should be unregulated and profits trump public safety.

Don't knock the city or Leonard for fining this guy. They should have shut him down a long time ago. Good riddance to the purple octopus.

[urbanlife]

It makes sense that the Greek Cuisina was shut down, that I am okay with, violating fire codes is a good reason to shut any business down...whole cities have burned to the ground in the past because of carelessness like this.

But I am against this whole swat team style of inspectors that Leonard has put together. It bothers me to have an organization that answers to no one and has no concrete material for what they are looking for or going after...it is more or less a way for Leonard to go after businesses that he doesnt like, that is what offends me about all of this because I find that a dont often agree with Leonard, therefore I have to sometimes wonder his motives.

But that aside, there was obviously clear evidence that the GC was in the wrong and it only needed a fire marshal to inspect the place, not a secretive organization.

[Delaney]

and it only needed a fire marshal to inspect the place, not a secretive organization.

They had repeated fire marshal reports for over 5 years. In fact, Papas had to pay the fire marshal to be present during events to ensure life safety to avoid being shut down. This was not a surprise to anyone.

And their calamari was awful.

[JordanL]

No, not unrelated. This is a business owner who continually violated codes and city regulations. But you think it's OK because he's just trying to run a business? That is classic libertarianism... businesses should be unregulated and profits trump public safety.

Don't knock the city or Leonard for fining this guy. They should have shut him down a long time ago. Good riddance to the purple octopus.

Uh, no. Clearly you have zero understanding of Libertarianism.

And I said nothing about whether or not this is a good thing.

I was more intrigued because I didn't see anyone in this thread before cab some in and say "Well I'm Libertarian, so I think he should be exempt from building codes". Maybe I missed it. All I saw was a sudden tirade against a political viewpoint.

Libertarianism is all about private property rights and such, but that doesn't mean building codes are good or bad, or that they're unlibertarian.

I think if you're referring to a strict and radical Libertarian viewpoint, then the emphasis is more on being able to build what you want on property you own, not being able to build how you want (i.e. in an unsafe manner).

Additionally, if you build something that doesn't conform to fire codes, you are in effect taxing everyone else, by relying on a public service (fire fighters) in a manner you are not entitled to, which actually encroaches on everyone else's property rights.

Violating building codes is a very bad thing, especially for Libertarians since it create externalities where there should be none, and externalities are pretty much the definition of anti-libertarian (which is why I firmly believe that Libertarianism is a very environmentally friendly perspective, as all pollution is an externality).

A great example would be the tariff that Minnesotta has just tried to enact on coal-powered electricity generated in North Dakota. It creates an externality which the people whom it affects are entitled to recoup, which is all the tariff does.

[urbanlife]

Violating building codes is a very bad thing, especially for Libertarians since it create externalities where there should be none, and externalities are pretty much the definition of anti-libertarian (which is why I firmly believe that Libertarianism is a very environmentally friendly perspective, as all pollution is an externality).


Just a side note on this, I think you might be hard pressed to find Libertarians that agree with this, often times people that claim to be Libertarians are just claiming that because they like the idea of "this is my property and I will do what ever I want with it." I often times find them to act very selfishly towards others.

Of course, this is no different than someone saying they are a Republican, which should be for small government, yet wanting to continually expanding the military. Or Democrats who are for the people well being, but are okay with giving benefits to big companies and insurance companies that continually screw over people within the country.

[bvpcvm]

You know what, hire your own police and fire, build your own curbs, roads, infrastructure, then educate and feed your client base from birth until they can get jobs, then protect them from outside harm and build them water supply systems and electric utilities, then come back and talk about libertarian systems

Uh, no. Clearly you have zero understanding of Libertarianism.

First of all, sorry to everyone to continue this off-topic discussion, but...

Maybe I don't understand libertarianism, but my impression is that it's pretty much as cab describes it: you're on your own for everything, if you can't provide it yourself, tough (oh, and you're not responsible for anyone else, etc). I just don't see how that could possibly be a pleasant way to live. When I come home from work I'm usually too tired to want to pull out the microscope and inspect the chicken before I cook it, and, frankly I can't afford to buy enough land to have my own private city park. So what's in it for me?

[rsbear]

When I come home from work I'm usually too tired to want to pull out the microscope and inspect the chicken before I cook it, and, frankly I can't afford to buy enough land to have my own private city park. So what's in it for me?

I'm not taking sides here and also apologize for continuing the off-topic conversation, but that last remark was great.

[PacificNW]

▲▲:cheers: :cheers:

[2oh1]

This thread may be off topic, but a lot of it sure is on the mark.

[JordanL]

Just a side note on this, I think you might be hard pressed to find Libertarians that agree with this, often times people that claim to be Libertarians are just claiming that because they like the idea of "this is my property and I will do what ever I want with it." I often times find them to act very selfishly towards others.

If you'll notice, my post specifically and conveniently avoids these people by dealing with the definition of Libertarianism as opposed to the group of people who are self-described Libertarians, who are often either selfish or anarchist.

Maybe I don't understand libertarianism, but my impression is that it's pretty much as cab describes it: you're on your own for everything, if you can't provide it yourself, tough (oh, and you're not responsible for anyone else, etc). I just don't see how that could possibly be a pleasant way to live. When I come home from work I'm usually too tired to want to pull out the microscope and inspect the chicken before I cook it, and, frankly I can't afford to buy enough land to have my own private city park. So what's in it for me?

Well, first I wasn't responding to cab when I said that. But that point aside, Libertarianism has many colors (just like conservatism and liberalism), but the most basic is not about responsibility, but about choice.

The most basic principals of Libertarianism are more or less the ideas that you should be able to make the final decisions about what to do with the things you own, so long as you do not limit the choices other people can make with the things they own.

And that's really the crux.

Building codes, in most cases, exist for that exact purpose. To prevent you from making a choice that will directly affect and prevent your neighbor from doing something they want to do with their property.

The idea some Libertarians have that every plot of land should be governed individually is a fallacy. Building codes do limit some valid things that you may want to do with your land, but the reality is that if Libertarians really wanted a set of codes that ONLY limited the things which it would need to, the size of the government policing it would have to be enormous.

Libertarianism, like any political philosophy, is about understanding the limits between what you wish the world were like and what it is truly like.

Our laws and tort system, for instance, make it impossible for an individual land owner to sue a polluter for damaging their property unless something pretty egregious and direct occurs, like the guilty party DUMPING waste on the private land owner's property.

But if you say, live down stream from a location where a large amount of pollution occurs and it affects your property in even the most simple ways, like you can't swim off your dock, or it prevents you from growing certain crops, or even reduces the yield of your crops, you should be able to recoup that loss.

This is what an externality is.

In simple terms, an externality is a cost of an action which is not directly burdened with the party committing the action. The example that was used years ago when I first encountered this in an econ class was a cellphone. If a student gets a call in the middle of class, and then silences it, it creates an externality.

All the other students in the class, and the teacher, pause for a moment while the phone rings. The teacher then went to calculate, using the number of students, and the cost of the class, the "cost per second" that a phone call created in externalities. And then he allowed students to receive and take phone calls by then forcing them to pay the fee which their externality created and distributing it to the affected parties (the other students).

All of this is to say that Libertarianism is a lot more complex than most people make it out to be. And it is not nearly so cut-throat as people here would have you believe.

But most people here are the sorts that probably studied engineering or city planning, or something similar, so it's not like I would exactly expect a thorough knowledge of economic and political theories of social organization.

My point, through all of this (and the only reason I continued is because it seemed like despite being off topic, everyone was interested in discussing it) is that I find the political commentary on this particular forum to be wholly uninformed, which is not at all a slight against the people here. Really, that isn't the purpose of this forum, and that isn't the mindset that people come here for.

And with that in mind, I thought it would be best to stick to the development conversation instead of railing into a tirade about the evils of a political philosophy that you neither agree with nor understand.

Again, it's not supposed to be an attack on anyone... I just think that if you're really going to discuss the philosophies of politics and how they interact with urban development, don't do it int he drive-by, McSoundByte format, because that does absolutely nothing but stroke your own ego. It creates no actual discourse, it ads nothing new to the conversation, it merely rehashes whatever your preconceptions and dispositions happen to be in a way that prevents discussion.

And that's what I saw cab do, and I didn't agree with that even more than I didn't agree with his description of Libertarianism.

[urbanlife]

JordanL I hope you took the time to read the rest of my point because that is exactly what it said...there are people in each party background that use that party as nothing more than a label while going about their own way even when it is wrong for them to do so. I wasnt singling out Libertarians with that comment.

[bvpcvm]

OK, JordanL, that's great about externalities and so on, but it sounds like I'd have to wait until my kid got sick from tainted chicken to go hire a lawyer, if I can afford one, and then go through some months- or years- long lawsuit. And it sounds like you're assuming people aren't corrupt and I'll actually be able to recoup the 'externality' of having my kid die of food poisoning. AND, getting to the heart of things, what business would want to operate in such an uncertain environment? If there are regulations that are known ahead of time, doesn't that help mitigate risk better than a system where there are no regulations but you can be hit with lawsuits at every turn?

And I still don't understand how this kind of system would supply me with a park to hang out in.

[eric cantona]

the plot thickens:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/01/greek_cusina_owner_sued_for_un.html

[bvpcvm]

so wait, he chopped an atrium out of the middle of a building he was only leasing?

[2oh1]

If you'll notice, my post specifically and conveniently avoids these people by dealing with the definition of Libertarianism as opposed to the group of people who are self-described Libertarians, who are often either selfish or anarchist.

Jordan, you might want to introduce yourself to some of the people in the Libertarian party. I'm talking about people *IN* the party, who work for the party and pretty much *ARE* the Libertarian party. People in the party with titles, in other words. I know a few, and though I'm not going to single them out by name, I can honestly tell you they are among the greediest, most self-centered 'anti-society until they need something from it' people I've ever met.