The Retail Thread

[65MAX]

What does the term "build out" mean?

Usually, it's to take an unfinished space and finish it for occupancy. Here, they're gutting the space first, then refinishing it.

[Okstate]

Thanks ^ & ^^

[downtownpdx]

Public Domain Coffee opens April 30 in the former home of Portland Coffee House @ SW Broadway and Alder.

http://www.publicdomaincoffee.com/

[Okstate]

Mr. Jollys coffee opened recently in the Pearl at Everett & 9th.

http://mrjollys.com/Gallery.html

[PacificNW]

Clothier H&M grabs former Saks spot


"H&M, the popular Swedish clothier, confirmed plans to open a 25,000-square-foot store in a former Saks Fifth Avenue spot at Pioneer Place.
The company said Wednesday it will open in the fall, representing the expansion of H&M, formally Hennes & Mauritz, into the Pacific Northwest.
The new H&M location, which will carry apparel for women and men, will fill 25,000 square feet.
H&M has expanded steadily in the United States since debuting in New York 10 years ago. H&M operates 193 H&M stores in the United States and close to 2,000 stores in 35 countries around the world."


http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2010/05/24/daily22.html

Surely they don't mean the main store??? I think they are talking about the former Men's Store... Right? The main store is over 60,000 sq. feet of floor space. I would think a major retailer such as Bloomingdale's, Macy's Home Store, Target, Dillard's, etc. might be interested in the larger space...

[bvpcvm]

it looks pretty clear to me that they mean the store inside pioneer place - meaning inside the shopping mall. besides, didn't someone post some sort of RFI to contractors to tour the future store? i seem to recall something like that and that whatever was posted had an address inside the mall.

[downtownpdx]

^^ Yeah the men's store on the NE corner of 4th and Yamhill has been closed for a while now, so I'm assuming that's the new spot. It will be nice that it's on the street, and not buried inside the mall :)

[downtownpdx]

A long-vacant spot on SW 6th between Oak and Pine will soon be home to "Little Bird," a new restaurant from Gabriel Rucker (who owns Le Pigeon on E. Burnside).

http://www.oregonlive.com/dining/index.ssf/2010/06/acclaimed_chef_gabriel_rucker.html

[Downtown_Gal]

If anyone is interested...

Last year NYC started Fashion's Night Out and it was a huge hit. This year Portland is participating too.

Portland Fashion's Night Out (http://www.downtownportland.org/promos/fashion_night_out.html)

Should be fun!

[2oh1]

So THAT'S what was going on in the park yesterday! I walked by around 5 and the park was rocking. I've never seen that spot so festive!

[tworivers]

Ha. Here you go:

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/09/target_has_a_bullseye_on_downt.html

[65MAX]

Great news! A Target at the Galleria would be a huge boost to Downtown.

[2oh1]

WOW!!! That would be a dramatic change if they put it in the Galleria. Target and Brooks Brothers seems like an odd mix in that building. And that's putting it mildly. Come to think of it, I wonder how they're doing since they opened in there...

I wouldn't mind seeing Target in the Saks space either though. It sure wouldn't hurt to have Target connected to Pioneer Place mall by those.... what do you call those things? Skyways? Pedestrian bridges? I'm drawing a blank this morning. In Minneapolis, they're called skyways. The extra foot traffic would be great for the mall. Then again, a Target in the Galleria would be great for spreading growth of retail along Morrison (and Yamhill too)

When Adams attended the Mayors' Institute on City Design seminar in Los Angeles in August, he found himself seated next to Scott Jordan-Denny, a Target real estate executive. The two got to talking and next thing you know, Target was sending representatives to the city.

Way to go Sam!

[PacificNW]

I have feeling Brooks Bros., etc., will be compensated in some way to relocate...especially if long leases are involved.

[65MAX]

Brooks Bros doesn't need to leave. There's 87,000sf available as-is, including the whole 2nd and 3rd floors. Target only needs a minimum of 60,000sf for their urban stores.

[PacificNW]

Isn't the square footage of the former Saks store something like 65,000 sq. Ft.?

[65MAX]

The article says Saks vacated a total of 83,000sf and that H&M is taking 25,000sf of that (the mens store on the rotunda), so the larger (original) Saks space must be 58,000sf. It'd be tight, but it could probably fit there if Target's willing to pay the higher rent at Pioneer Place.

[2oh1]

The article says Saks vacated a total of 83,000sf and that H&M is taking 25,000sf of that (the mens store on the rotunda), so the larger (original) Saks space must be 58,000sf. It'd be tight, but it could probably fit there if Target's willing to pay the higher rent at Pioneer Place.

Not necessarily. Saks had space on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd floors in the rotunda section of Pioneer Place, but it looks like H&M is going to occupy those three sections plus a section on the below-ground floor. I was surprised to see an H&M construction storefront down there too. That's a 4 floor H&M! I think it'll be great for that half of the mall which has always had less foot traffic than the older 'square' part of the mall.

[65MAX]

So they're taking additional space on the rotunda besides just the Saks mens store? In that case, it probably IS over 60,000sf in the original Saks. Maybe Target will cough up the higher rent for better visibility at Pioneer Place, but I'm pretty sure Naito is going to bend over backwards to get them in the Galleria.

[2oh1]

So they're taking additional space on the rotunda besides just the Saks mens store?

It sure looks like it. I was surprised to see H&M under-construction storefront on the lowest level of the rotunda since I assumed they were just filling the old Saks rotunda space. I think H&M is going to be great for the mall. They'll have a four floor store that connects to the sidewalk outside and four levels of the rotunda including the base at the bottom of the escalators.

Even with the movie theatre, the rotunda has never had the kind of foot traffic the older square part of the mall has. H&M should help a lot. Personally, I think the rotunda half of the mall was really poorly designed. The square block has such obvious entrances that pull people in off the street. The rotunda doesn't. I have no clue what they were thinking when the decided NOT to have street entrances on all four corners of the rotunda.


Maybe Target will cough up the higher rent for better visibility at Pioneer Place, but I'm pretty sure Naito is going to bend over backwards to get them in the Galleria.

The more I think about it, the more I hope Target opens a store in the Galleria. That's such a gorgeous building, with so much potential, and it's been under-utilized for too long... but the real reason I hope Target moves in there is that I'm dying to see more foot traffic on Morrison and Yamhill.

[bvpcvm]

anyone have any idea when h&m opens?

[65MAX]

^^^^
Website says "Fall 2010", so any day now. They have started running ads on TV here, so it should be pretty soon.

[SpongeG]

so Saks is gone? :O :O

i went there a couple times it wasnice but never seemed to be busy so pricey

[65MAX]

Saw a Saks at Bridgeport Village yesterday. I didn't even know we had one there.

[pdxtraveler]

Saw a Saks at Bridgeport Village yesterday. I didn't even know we had one there.

That is Off 5th. The Saks version of the Rack for Nordstrom.

[Okstate]

http://djcoregon.com/news/2010/09/24/psu-students-tackle-northwest-portland-site/

Other talks of a possible good location for a target ^

PSU students tackle Northwest Portland site
POSTED: Friday, September 24, 2010 at 02:53 PM PT
BY: Nick Bjork
Tags: Northwest Portland, Portland State University, universities

"The students suggest anchoring the Con-way development with a Target store, a New Seasons grocery store and a 12-screen cinema. The team would then add 400,000 square feet of leasable office space, 100,000 square feet of retail space and 75,000 square feet of restaurant space. Con-way’s existing 408,000 square feet of space would be renovated. The concept also calls for 2,250 rental units, 200 condominiums and 250 hotel rooms."

http://djcoregon.com/files/2010/09/0923_conway_site_project_03.jpg
http://djcoregon.com/files/2010/09/raleigh-st.jpg

[edirp]

Not sure this has been mentioned: H & M is opening their second Portland location in Washington Square.

[2oh1]

PSU students tackle Northwest Portland site

"The students suggest anchoring the Con-way development with a Target store, a New Seasons grocery store and a 12-screen cinema. The team would then add 400,000 square feet of leasable office space, 100,000 square feet of retail space and 75,000 square feet of restaurant space. Con-way’s existing 408,000 square feet of space would be renovated. The concept also calls for 2,250 rental units, 200 condominiums and 250 hotel rooms."

Gee, that idea didn't just get whipped up in a day or two, did it? "Hey, we have a bunch of land! Let's put a Target there. Genius!"

No.

I would fight that tooth and nail unless Target had already vetoed downtown entirely. The opportunity to get an urban Target in the heart of the city is simply too good to pass up because of what it would do for the rest of downtown. The Galleria has been under utilized for decades. SW Morrison has so much potential to be lined with local shops and even more restaurants. Target would generate foot traffic. All of that foot traffic could easily flow along SW Yamhill, Morrison and down to Pioneer Place and the blocks of shopping around it. And let's not forget about the blocks between the Galleria and Burnside. There's so much opportunity there, and creating more foot traffic will be an excellent catalyst. The opportunity is just too good to pass up.

I'd fear turning Conway into a concept like this would draw people away from NW 21st/23rd and The Pearl rather than pulling more shoppers into those districts.

Housing on the Conway land? Absolutely!!! The rest of this concept? I'd fight it.

[65MAX]

^^^^
I wouldn't worry about that "concept" being developed further than a 3rd year arch studio. Not much substance and basically, it's just a list of building types and colorful low to mid-rise blocks set on a grid. Conway already has much grander ideas for their property, including high-rises and a canal feature along the length of Raleigh.

[downtownpdx]

Not sure this has been mentioned: H & M is opening their second Portland location in Washington Square.

Really? Not surprised, but how soon? I kinda hope they wait a while so the downtown store doesn't immediately get competition from the free-parking suburbs :(

[Okstate]

^ Dave and Busters is opening their first Oregon location @ Washington Square in February as well.

[Shilo Rune 96]

I got a brief peak inside H&M today:


http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3788/photolm.jpg (http://img801.imageshack.us/i/photolm.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Okstate]

H&M opens November 11th at noon.

[SpongeG]

Really? Not surprised, but how soon? I kinda hope they wait a while so the downtown store doesn't immediately get competition from the free-parking suburbs :(

the way H&M works it doesn't put as much in its suburban stores - they usually only carry a few of the H&M Lines - they don't usually put the designer collabs into suburban stores for example and the divided line is not in all stores either but always in the downtown ones

[Okstate]

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2010/10/27/borders-downtown-store-to-close-jan-7.html

Borders is closing its downtown store early next year.

[bvpcvm]

that's too bad. it's hard to compete with powell's. now what'll i do while my wife is shopping at the nordstrom rack??

[scleeb]

Don't despair. I know for a fact there are a multiple national retailers currently eying the CBD retail core. The retail leasing community has known about the Borders situation for quite some time and the space is being actively marketed. Don't be surprised if you see multiple existing CBD retailers upgrade their locations in the next 18 months. The newly vacated spaces will be back-filled by new retailers shortly thereafter.

[Okstate]

Shortly thereafter 18 months? ^

[scleeb]

lots of moving parts, but they are moving.... slowly

[Downtown_Gal]

From PDXPipeline:

Mayor Launches The Shopping Season With Help From Local Retailers And a Special Guest

On Tuesday, November 9, 2010 Mayor Sam Adams will join Downtown Retail Council Chair William Palmer and a special ‘seasonal’ guest, to officially announce the numerous public projects helping downtown sparkle a little brighter this holiday season. Downtown Portland is open for business!

The mayor will unwrap the campaign at one of five new holiday pop-up shops featuring local, independent retailers offering one-of-a-kind gifts. Other holiday announcements include new storefront window graphics, annual holiday lighting kick-off, Portland Storefronts – a pilot program designed to activate vacant storefronts with local art installations – and “Holidate,” an events campaign where various stores in downtown will have special events on Thursday evenings in December, with free parking at SmartPark garages (enter between 4-6 p.m.).

When: 12:00 p.m. – 12:30 p.m. Tuesday, November 9, 2010
Where: Flurry Pop-Up Shop
750 SW Yamhill St.

http://pdxpipeline.com/monthly-event-list/november-9-mayor-sam-adams-launches-portland-holiday-shopping-season-flurry-pop-up-shops/

http://pdxneatsheet.com/neat-event/flurry-pop-up-shop-portland-fashion-designers-opening-2010/

[bvpcvm]

Ha, we walked by H&M today and the line to get in stretched all the way around the block - I mean around and back to the entrance. Pioneer Place was also packed with people. Things hardly looked recession-like, at least today.

[2oh1]

I saw that too. Around 3:30, I passed a few women holding H&M bags and I asked how long they waited in line to get in. They waited a half hour. In the rain. I passed by again at 7 and there was no line at all, but the store sure was mobbed. I thought they were going to occupy 4 floors, but they just took three.

Wasn't the old Saks men's store on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd floor? I thought H&M was taking all of that space, but they're on the underground floor plus the 1st and 2nd, but not the 3rd.

It was great to see all of that activity over there.

[SpongeG]

H&M shoppers stack up for Portland opening

Published: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 10:37 AM Updated: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 10:39 PM

Laura Gunderson, The Oregonian

http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/9041632-large.jpg

PORTLAND, OR--11/11/10--Liz Patail tries on one of her pile of selections at the new H&M store in Pioneer Place. Hundreds of shoppers waited hours, some all night, for the opening of H&M's first store in Portland. Michael Lloyd/The Oregonian H&M shoppers stack up for Portland opening gallery (5 photos)
Wrapped in blankets and sleeping bags, a fleet of young shoppers are awaiting the noon opening of the new Hennes & Mauritz store at Pioneer Place.

"I'm excited about the new store. Portland doesn't really have an urban clothing store," said Rashay Burns, 18, of Portland who joined the line around 9 p.m. last night

She and others were excited to see the store, which has such a following that many local shoppers have e-mailed the Swedish company for years begging for an H&M. They're also hoping to snag one of 300 gift cards, some loaded with as much as $300.

The downtown store will soon be followed by another outlet at Washington Square set to open next year. Local retail experts say others will soon following, possibly at Lloyd Center and Clackamas Town Center.

Automn Whitehurst, a 16-year-old from Milwaukie, joined the line around 10 a.m. today.

"I went to the store in New York, and I loved it," she said. "I always wondered when they would open a store here."

...

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/11/hm_shoppers_stack_up_for_portl.html

video: http://tribeca.vidavee.com/advance/doc/57CA559A4A1726A4CC48DA394D59C393?AF_deliveryChannel=play

[SpongeG]

-xf1kjh613k

lp9T33RG5y4

[SpongeG]

this report it breaks down H&M for those who don't understand their lines...

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[zilfondel]

I just looked up HM's store locations. Can't believe they had 2 in the Seattle area and 1 in freaking Tacoma before they opened one up in Portland!

So retail environment:

Tacoma > Portland?

Am I missing something here?

[SpongeG]

they really like to wait for locations

they just announced on facebook store openings for fall 2011! they take their time to secure prime spots

[bvpcvm]

also, i understand that they open a lot of locations in a given area before expanding to new areas.

stopped by last night and it was still pretty packed.

[SpongeG]

sounds like the full store too - should get the Lanvin line on saturday? they are open special hours according to the website 8am-8pm for the madness that will be

usually select stores - and usually the downtown ones - get the designer collaborations, the suburban mall stores don't usually get the full lines so they also keep the draw for their flagship stores

and i saw in a video it has 3 levels? -1 1 & 2 commonly see that in europe for floor numbering - is -1 the street level? or a basement level? and 1 the street level?

[65MAX]

....and i saw in a video it has 3 levels? -1 1 & 2 commonly see that in europe for floor numbering - is -1 the street level? or a basement level? and 1 the street level?

No, in Europe, "0" is the ground floor, or street level. "1" is the first floor ABOVE the ground floor, or what we call the second floor, "2" the third floor, etc.

You're correct about "-1", it's the basement level in European buildings, "-2" would be the sub-basement, etc.

[smendesPDX]

So going through the threads and recapping various articles, here is what is on the horizon / potential hortizon, or already arrived for new retail:

[1] Target - potential urban location at the Galleria


[2] Niketown will relocate, location still pending


********************************************

Already arrived

Core77 Flagship store (http://www.handeyesupply.com/pages/about-us)

H&M

New Dr. Martens in the Pearl

[edirp]

I'd like to see CB2 open in Portland. The Pearl District is the perfect place.

And "Room & Board".

And food-wise:
Pei Wei (from the PF Changs people)
Chuys (Austin, Texas based Tex Mex restaurants)

[SpongeG]

No, in Europe, "0" is the ground floor, or street level. "1" is the first floor ABOVE the ground floor, or what we call the second floor, "2" the third floor, etc.

You're correct about "-1", it's the basement level in European buildings, "-2" would be the sub-basement, etc.

yah we just call the basement the basement haha no number

[zilfondel]

I had no idea Core77 had a store - I've just been reading their blog. And its in Portland, go figure. :P

[Okstate]

I'd like to see CB2 open in Portland. The Pearl District is the perfect place.

And "Room & Board".

And food-wise:
Pei Wei (from the PF Changs people)
Chuys (Austin, Texas based Tex Mex restaurants)

I'll second CB2 and Pei Wei. Pei Wei is basically an asian version of Chipotle...which Chipotle is coming out with an "asian" version themselves soon.

[designpdx]

Another vote for CB2

I'll second CB2 and Pei Wei. Pei Wei is basically an asian version of Chipotle...which Chipotle is coming out with an "asian" version themselves soon.

[2oh1]

Another vote for CB2

CB2 seems like such a natural fit for The Pearl. Or even downtown, for that matter. How much space would they need? How big is the vacant Saks space? Well... I suppose the vacant Saks space is priced out of their league.

[pdxtraveler]

Was out at Target yesterday and noticed they have started site work for the FBI headquarters that is going in near the MAX station.

[MarkDaMan]

I saw a CB2 in a nice location in Hollywood (the real one) when visiting last week. I think they could afford the old Saks location.

[PacificNW]

Good idea...

[zilfondel]

Lol, I get so many CB2 mags. Is there stuff any good? I'm too poor to buy good furniture. :)

[dkealoha]

Everett Street Bistro closed! Not permanently... yet...

http://pdx.eater.com/archives/2010/12/14/everett-street-bistro-closed-during-apparant-landlord-dispute.php

[bvpcvm]

Wal-Mart study considers 17 more stores in Portland area

Published: Tuesday, May 03, 2011, 7:24 PM Updated: Tuesday, May 03, 2011, 8:15 PM

By Laura Gunderson, The Oregonian

What if there were roughly the same number of Walmarts in the region as Fred Meyer stores?

That's exactly what the world's largest retailer wanted to know.

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., which operates four Portland-area stores, commissioned an economic analysis that looked at building 17 more. The analysis considers a range of stores, from its traditional full-service behemoths to smaller grocery-store type concepts, in the tri-county area -- including eight in Portland proper.

While the sheer number of stores is mind-boggling to some, the fact Wal-Mart is eyeing the region with such intensity is not. Federal, state and local agencies have started offering incentives to grocers to build in under-served communities. And it comes as competition has amped up nationwide between Wal-Mart and Target Corp., which are both looking to dive into an area they've only dabbled in: Fresh food.

The grocery push for Wal-Mart offers the mega-retailer more room to grow, especially in the Portland area, one of the West Coast's most un-Walmarted frontiers.

Nationwide, Wal-Mart averages one store for every 85,000 residents. In the metro area, that number is closer to one for every 415,000. In many ways, that's the way Portlanders have liked it.

"I don't know how the Wal-Mart model will mix with the 'Keep-Portland-weird' model -- only time will tell," said Joe Gilliam, president of the Northwest Grocery Association, noting that Wal-Mart isn't a member of his group or others in Washington or Idaho. "This could test the Portland ethos of local buying and local support against the 'I'll just go in there for a lower price.'"

And while Wal-Mart has famously clashed over potential locations with Portland leaders and shoppers in the past, its economic study was, in part, an answer to a call from the Portland Development Commission. The agency had sought retailers' ideas on how to provide certain neighborhoods with more healthful and affordable food.

"It's one of those cases where you have to let the consumer decide and it's going to be a food fight," said Tom Gillpatrick, retail marketing professor at Portland State and executive director of its Food Industry Leadership Center. "This will probably put some downward pressure on price at a time when food prices overall are going up."

Gillpatrick added that such pressure could hurt sales at larger retailers, such as Fred Meyer, Safeway and Albertsons. Still, he said, Fred Meyer and Albertsons are both owned by larger corporations -- The Kroger Co. and Supervalu Inc. respectively -- that are familiar with the competition on a national level.

Gilliam, of the association, is more concerned about the smaller grocers, such as independents with one or two locations. Ultimately, he said, he doesn't believe enough open land or empty buildings exist for such an expansion.

Wal-Mart's economic analysis, prepared by a Vancouver-based firm that's done work for other large grocers, envisions adding four neighborhood markets and four discount and full-service stores in Portland.

At about 42,000 square feet, Wal-Mart's neighborhood markets are around the same size and makeup of a traditional grocer, such as Safeway or Albertsons. Its discount stores don't stock fresh grocery sections, but offer apparel, home goods and hardware within 108,000 square feet, around the size of a WinCo or Costco. Wal-Mart's full-service locations -- the 185,000-square-foot supercenters its best known for -- increasingly feature grocery sections.

In the surrounding tri-county area, the retailer is looking to plant four neighborhood markets and five discount and full-service stores. It didn't mention specific sites, referring only to areas with "little current coverage," including Gresham, the City of Portland -- minus the Lents and Hayden Meadows areas -- and Washington and Clackamas counties, not counting areas near its Happy Valley or Cornelius stores.

Such an explosion of Walmarts could bring 2,120 construction jobs, the analysis predicted, along with 4,300 new full- and part-time retail positions.

If Wal-Mart added 1.2 million square feet of retail space across the region, the analysis calculated, it would pick up about 35 percent of the market share, leaving "substantial opportunity for other retailers to also better serve specific community needs."

A 2009 study of grocery market share in Oregon put Safeway at 25 percent, Fred Meyer at 23 percent, Walmart at 11 percent, Albertsons at 10 percent and WinCo Foods at 16 percent, according to market researcher The Shelby Report.

Wal-Mart confirmed last week that it had purchased the former Haggen store in Beaverton's Murray Hill community. It's also designing a new 90,000 square foot store with a grocery department in North Portland's Hayden Meadows neighborhood.

Last week, Wal-Mart rolled out final plans for a 21,000-square-foot expansion to add a grocery department to its East Portland store. The retailer also plans to add grocery departments this year to stores in Dallas, Newport and Cottage Grove.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/business_impact/print.html?entry=/2011/05/wal-mart_study_considers_17_mo.html (http://blog.oregonlive.com/business_impact/print.html?entry=/2011/05/wal-mart_study_considers_17_mo.html)

[Shilo Rune 96]

2/3 Walmart's in Vancouver already have grocery. The Oregonian isn't counting these as our metro area?

[dkealoha]

The new Starbucks serving beer & wine opened this morning in the old Adidas space on NW 10th & Couch. It looks really nice inside. Planning to at least walk in and check it out today on my lunch break.

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Starbucks-Brewing-Somthing-New-123585279.html

[maccoinnich]

I was very surprised to walk past there a few months ago, and notice that they were applying for a liquor license.

I think I want to get drunk in Starbucks.

[downtownpdx]

^^^ That would be a hilarious scene ... actually getting cut-off there :haha:

[Shilo Rune 96]

^^^ That would be a hilarious scene ... actually getting cut-off there :haha:

I bet they close at 7:00 PM. ;p

[redbeard]

I bet they close at 7:00 PM. ;p

From the oregonian article on it's opening:

"The Pearl District Starbucks will open daily at 5 a.m. and close at 11 p.m. on all nights but Fridays and Saturdays, when it will close at midnight."

[Shilo Rune 96]

From the oregonian article on it's opening:

"The Pearl District Starbucks will open daily at 5 a.m. and close at 11 p.m. on all nights but Fridays and Saturdays, when it will close at midnight."

Osnap! :notacrook:

[bvpcvm]

http://blog.oregonlive.com/business_impact/print.html?entry=/2011/06/pioneer_place_looks_to_update.html

Pioneer Place looks to update food court into foodie heaven

Published: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 9:45 PM
Updated: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 10:01 PM
By Laura Gunderson, The Oregonian

For many shoppers, a trip to the mall isn't complete without a pile of food-court fries, a greasy bowl of kung pao chicken or a corn dog from that kid in a funny hat.

But Pioneer Place may soon ditch the dreary mall provisions for more Portland-esque gourmet and locally made fare such as fresh-baked breads, cured meats, cheeses, chocolates and beer.

The idea is to create a unique marketplace within the mall, which has struggled with an identity crisis since it opened two decades ago.

... follow link (http://blog.oregonlive.com/business_impact/print.html?entry=/2011/06/pioneer_place_looks_to_update.html) for more

[scleeb]

Bottom line, the gut-wagons (read 'food-carts") are killing the PP food court. Most people have drawn the conclusion that it's better to pay a fair price for creative local food than overpay for homogenized crap. Although some of the food cart fare is crap too.
On a separate note, the city has to do something to moderate the proliferation of food-carts. It's getting out out hand. The olfactory experience of some Downtown Portland sidewalks is now reminiscent of Bangkok bazaar. If the city can regulate the number of Taxis, it can regulate the number of food-carts.

[cab]

I love the bizarre like effect the food carts bring to DT sidewalks. There is LIFE. US cities have been missing that controlled chaos. The way the cart pods are developing are fantastic example of actual real capitalism (not that gambling crap you see on CNBC ;)). As long as carts can make a living why limit the number?

[scleeb]

I love the bizarre like effect the food carts bring to DT sidewalks. There is LIFE. US cities have been missing that controlled chaos. The way the cart pods are developing are fantastic example of actual real capitalism (not that gambling crap you see on CNBC ;)). As long as carts can make a living why limit the number?

The same reason you limit the number of taxi permits, to limit over-saturation. Some streets in DT Portland are nearly impassable during the noon-hour. Unrestrained growth (in any industry) will lead to negative consequences. The prime reason Portland instituted an urban growth boundary was to restrain the negative impacts of growth. I say grandfather every-food cart operator in town and issue them a "transferable" permit. Then issue supplemental permits to new operators in a more thoughtful manner. I like the controlled chaos too, I just want to rein it in a little bit.

[2oh1]

I don't want to rein in food carts at all. The positive effect overwhelmingly outweighs any negative effect.

The issue here isn't that we have too many food carts. The issue is a lack of reason to go to the Pioneer Place food court. Pioneer Place isn't exactly a Spencer Gifts type of mall, which means the typical stuck in suburbia mall-food-court approach isn't going to be as successful. Why would it?

Instead of asking why people aren't eating there, ask who the potential customer is and why that person would want to eat there? What's the draw? What's the appeal? It certainly isn't the atmosphere. And it isn't the food.

With so many better options, is the answer for the Pioneer Place food court REALLY to limit the number of better options? What a sad way of thinking.

[65MAX]

I guess I'm not seeing the negative aspects. I don't consider crowded sidewalks and exotic smells from foodcarts to be negatives, They're a sign of vitality and diversity and the carts are clearly popular alternatives to typical fast food fare.

As long as they're inspected regularly and trash doesn't accumulate, let there be as many as the market will support. It's hard to argue that the market will become oversaturated because the underperforming carts will simply go out of business.

[tworivers]

Speaking of food carts, you guys see this?

Food carts gone; Chinatown lot owner fights back (http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=130877608211432200)
Wright warns he’ll complain about city’s other ‘illegal’ carts
By Peter Korn
The Portland Tribune, Jun 23, 2011

[2oh1]

I guess I'm not seeing the negative aspects. I don't consider crowded sidewalks and exotic smells from foodcarts to be negatives, They're a sign of vitality and diversity and....

...and yes, yes yes. I agree completely. While the food carts may, in fact, be giving people better options than the Pioneer Place food court, they actually help Pioneer Place as a whole. Anything that helps to make downtown a more fun, vibrant, diverse and active place helps the entire downtown business community.

This can't really be compared to limiting the number of taxis. A cab is about getting to a destination. Food is a destination. A cab is a means. Food is an ends. The Pioneer Place food court isn't a compelling destination.

Perhaps Pioneer Place wouldn't have as many store vacancies as it does if we limited the number of stores throughout the rest of downtown Portland. To me, that makes about as much sense as limiting the number of food options elsewhere in order to help the Pioneer Place food court.

[scleeb]

...and yes, yes yes. I agree completely. While the food carts may, in fact, be giving people better options than the Pioneer Place food court, they actually help Pioneer Place as a whole. Anything that helps to make downtown a more fun, vibrant, diverse and active place helps the entire downtown business community.

This can't really be compared to limiting the number of taxis. A cab is about getting to a destination. Food is a destination. A cab is a means. Food is an ends. The Pioneer Place food court isn't a compelling destination.

Perhaps Pioneer Place wouldn't have as many store vacancies as it does if we limited the number of stores throughout the rest of downtown Portland. To me, that makes about as much sense as limiting the number of food options elsewhere in order to help the Pioneer Place food court.

Actually, regulating food carts and taxis is exactly the same thing. Both ideas are designed to regulate capacity and control "fleet" size. Believe me, its hard for me to say this because I really believe in free-markets and open competition. However, allowing the "free-market" to achieve food cart equilibrium would likely result in a higher concentration of carts than most people would prefer. Also, you should consider the collateral effects. Most of us on this forum bemoan the high number of vacant storefronts in Downtown Portland. That problem will only increase as additional food carts place more competitive pressure on CBD restaurants. Especially those restaurants offering cheap to moderately priced fare.

I guess what I am saying is, I wish we would cap what we have and call it good. It almost seems like we are in a "cart" bubble, a la the dot com bubble.

[65MAX]

If it really is a "bubble", then some of the less successful carts will go under. But arbitrarily restricting the number of carts is like restricting the number of shops or restaurants or any other business that provides goods. That doesn't make any sense.

[scleeb]

If it really is a "bubble", then some of the less successful carts will go under. But arbitrarily restricting the number of carts is like restricting the number of shops or restaurants or any other business that provides goods. That doesn't make any sense.

What happens after a bubble... misery. Why let things get out of hand and watch people piss there life savings away on a fools errand.

Also, I hate breaking the news to ya, but restricting businesses from providing goods and services is as American as apple pie. This country has restricted and regulated business since 1787. Specifically, Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the US Constitution.

[philopdx]

And what, precisely, is wrong with a Bangkok bazaar? As long as we don't trigger any seizures in olfactory epileptics, no harm, no foul.

I saw we invoke a variation of Godwin's law here. Rather than rendering a healthy discussion needlessly earnest with comparisons to Nazis, let's invoke a new law that does the same for citing specific articles of the constitution to validate ideological stands on... taco trucks.

/thread enjoyment

[2oh1]

This is silly. Limiting the number of food carts doesn't solve the problem of Pioneer Place not offering a compelling reason to eat there.

[scleeb]

This is silly. Limiting the number of food carts doesn't solve the problem of Pioneer Place not offering a compelling reason to eat there.

Silly? I would say obsessive... I never really cared about the Pioneer Place food court topic. I've just been spoiling for a reason to gripe about food carts. In case you haven't noticed, I kinda hate them. BTW, I am really sensitive to strong smells.

[scleeb]

deleted post

[scleeb]

I saw we invoke a variation of Godwin's law here. Rather than rendering a healthy discussion needlessly earnest with comparisons to Nazis, let's invoke a new law that does the same for citing specific articles of the constitution to validate ideological stands on... taco trucks.

/thread enjoyment

What are you talking about man? Do you feel compelled to launch a pithy rejoinder to every post you disagree with, or is it just something about me? Relax why don't ya.

[65MAX]

What happens after a bubble... misery. Why let things get out of hand and watch people piss there life savings away on a fools errand.

Also, I hate breaking the news to ya, but restricting businesses from providing goods and services is as American as apple pie. This country has restricted and regulated business since 1787. Specifically, Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the US Constitution.

There's a difference between regulating businesses (of course they should be regulated) and restricting the number of entrepeneurs who want to enter the marketplace. You're proposing the latter.

And what exactly is the optimum number of food carts that should be allowed? Which bureaucratic agency is going to make that determination? Should we also limit the number of coffee shops in the city, since there's already way too many of those? Or the number of convenience stores, because they're prime targets for robberies? Sorry, I still say that doesn't make sense.

[scleeb]

There's a difference between regulating businesses (of course they should be regulated) and restricting the number of entrepeneurs who want to enter the marketplace. You're proposing the latter.

And what exactly is the optimum number of food carts that should be allowed? Which bureaucratic agency is going to make that determination? Should we also limit the number of coffee shops in the city, since there's already way too many of those? Or the number of convenience stores, because they're prime targets for robberies? Sorry, I still say that doesn't make sense.

What is the optimum number of food carts? In my opinion, less than we currently have. As for limiting the number of coffee shops and convenience stores, if they had wheels and were deemed "mobile," then yes, I would argue they should be regulated. Food carts are not permanent structures with real property protections, they are glorified "taxis" w/ deep fryers. Also, governments do regulate/limit businesses they deem nuisances of not in the public interest. That's why you don't see liquor stores and gun shops on every corner of Portland. As for making sense... I do. There are plenty of Portlanders that dislike the food carts madness. I know a majority of people like the carts, but a sizable minority don't. I will make a prediction, sometime within the next 24 months, some legislative attempt will be made to place additional regulations on food carts to control further growth.

[zilfondel]

Jesus scleeb, give it a rest. Put the keyboard down.

Portland isn't Seattle or SF, which essentially ban food carts. Portland's food carts are a HUGE draw for business people to work downtown, as (speaking for myself and my coworkers here) they offer a quick way to get quality lunch, with a HUGE amount of variety. Food carts come and go, some are good, some are bad. The New Taste of India, for example, has been near PSU for about 10 years now.

Food carts lease out private space on parking lots. Let them! These parking lots may not be developed for 5,10, 15, or 50+ years.

Your fear-mongering about a "food cart bubble" is patently ridiculous - sure, there may be too many food carts. But they don't even influence the local economy very noticeably - they'll just pack up shop and disappear without a trace when they go belly-up. Which, of course, is the beauty of using a truck or trailer: they can move! No vacant storefront like Wal-Mart leaves behind.

Also, the 1 or 2 people working their can find a new job. They do, however, offer excellent entrepreneurial opportunities that otherwise don't exist, allowing budding chefs to cut their teeth before jumping full-bore into the foodie/restaurant industry.

As far as the argument that they overcrowd the sidewalks... please. Portland's tiny blocks give you alternate routes to walk around them 95% of the time. I lived in Portland back in 2003, and there are more pedestrians and activity - by far- then there was back then, after the first Bush recession. EVERYONE I KNOW would 100% hate to have the food carts go away.


If you want peace and quiet, empty sidewalks, and no smells, you are free to move to a suburb or small town.

[downtownpdx]

Agreed! ^^^ We're not exactly stacking food carts on top of each other, and they add vitality to the streets, night and day. Just like any other business, they have to compete for our $$ to survive. They may be cheap, diverse and convenient -- but they can't offer the amenities of an actual restaurant with full service. People can choose whatever style of food/service they want downtown, and there's really no legitimate reason to limit the number of carts as long as they are complying with basic health/safety regulations.

[2oh1]

The funny thing about food carts being a 'nuisance' is that the food carts add a richness and vitality to our city and its culture. It's a shame that is a nuisance to you, but don't make the mistake of thinking that your opinion is anything more than that.

--> CNN: World's best street food (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/07/19/worlds.best.street.food/index.html)
Cities listed include Vienna, Brussels, Istanbul, Marrakech, Philly...

1. Portland, Oregon
With more than 400 carts selling everything from Korean tacos to Carolina-style barbecue, Portland is a microcosm of mobile meals. Lunchtime crowds gather near SW 10th Avenue and SW Alder Street; later on, night owls head across the river to SE 12th Avenue and SE Hawthorne Boulevard for deep-fried cherry pies and savory crepes, served until 2 a.m.

It's A-OK to not like the food carts. I live in the rose city and don't particularly care for roses, but I still have the ability to understand why others enjoy them and I don't begrudge their pleasure. To ignore the benefits our city enjoys thanks to food carts and our growing food cart culture is short sighted silliness.

[2oh1]

I should also add that I won't be surprised if there is a "Food cart bubble" that bursts in some cities, such as Los Angeles. I have a feeling that's where you got that term from :)

One of the things that makes it easier for food carts to do well in Portland is the pedestrian nature of our city, and that's a model other cities can't easily duplicate. Our small blocks, urban growth boundary, exceptional mass transit, etc etc etc. I can see food carts being a fad in some cities, but I can also see them standing the test of time here. If the market gets over-saturated, the lesser ones will close, and that's as it should be. But overall, I think our city's food cart scene will last. And Portland will be better for it.

[PacificNW]

http://video-embed.oregonlive.com/services/player/bcpid619299305001?bctid=1017176765001

[tworivers]

In defense of scleeb, I don't think he's suggesting that the food carts "go away", just that they need to be more thoroughly regulated. That's a valid suggestion, and not out of line with how we approach other not-so-dissimilar issues.

I don't personally care about the prospect of a bubble (unless there's a government food cart bailout ;)), but I have to admit that occasionally I'll round a bend in the road and think "you've got to be kidding me, another 'pod' of food carts?". And they can be junky and chaotic, in a city that values neatness and quiet (<--something that, having grown up in an east coast city, has always annoyed me). And the more that their number increases, the harder it will be to ensure that they are all complying with food safety laws.

On the other hand, I also love the vitality, especially on the downtown parking lots, and the fact that there is this niche where government interference is minimal. And some of the food is awesome. And they're typically affordable.

It reminds me of the whole pedicab controversy...

[davehogan]

And the more that their number increases, the harder it will be to ensure that they are all complying with food safety laws.

That can be said about any number of businesses. As the number of habitable buildings increase, the harder it will be to ensure they're all complying with fire codes. As the number of bars increases, the harder it will be to ensure they're complying with OLCC rules. As the number of restaurants increases, the harder it will be to ensure they're complying with food safety laws. As the number of roads increases, the harder it will be to ensure drivers are complying with traffic laws.

We don't limit the number of buildings, cars, restaurants, etc due to these factors alone. Why should we single out food carts?

[MarkDaMan]

Punch Bowl comes to Pioneer Place
Premium content from Portland Business Journal by Wendy Culverwell , Business Journal staff writer
Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 3:00am PDT

A Denver restaurateur will lease the entire third floor of downtown Portland’s Pioneer Place rotunda in one of the largest retail transactions of the year.

Seasoned Development LLC will open Punch Bowl Social, a bistro, bowling alley and entertainment destination one floor below the Regal Pioneer Place Stadium 6 theaters.

It will open in time for the 2012 holiday season.

The company will take over a 32,000-square-foot floor formerly occupied by Todai Seafood Buffet and a portion of Saks Fifth Avenue.

Robert Thompson, president and CEO for Seasoned Development, estimates it will cost about $4 million to transform the space into a bistro, bowling alley and entertainment destination catering chiefly to adults.

Punch Bowl Social, described by a Pioneer Place manager as “the Ace Hotel meets Stumptown Coffee,” will serve as a gathering place where visitors can dine, bowl and play pingpong, cards and marbles.

“We really are doing marbles. We think marbles are coming back,” Thompson said.

Thompson has big plans for Punch Bowl Social, which debuts its first location in a gritty Denver neighborhood this fall. Seasoned Development is a privately held restaurant development and operating firm that is betting on Punch Bowl going national.

If it succeeds, it will be another notch in Portland’s proverbial lipstick case: Punch Bowl Social leans heavily on Portland’s food and culture scenes.

“This concept is as much Portland as it is Denver or anywhere else,” he said.

The restaurant will employ about 60 when it opens.

Punch Bowl is the latest in a string of retailers to invest in Portland that includes Nike Inc., Starbucks Co., Target, Apple and others, said Craig Sweitzer, a retail broker and principal with Urban Works Real Estate.

“There’s a full recovery taking place,” he said.

That’s confirmed by third quarter market statistics from Kidder Mathews. The Portland-area retail vacancy rate dropped to 5.9 percent in the third quarter, down 6 percent or 40 basis points from one year ago. It is now at its lowest level since mid-2009.

So far in 2011, retailers have absorbed more than 441,000 square feet of space in a market with 113.7 million square feet spread over 9,633 buildings.

Punch Bowl Social signals a major transformation for Pioneer Place, leasing director Erika Plummer said at a recent Portland forum for real estate professionals.

Pioneer Place’s owner — Chicago-based General Growth Properties — emerged from bankruptcy last November with a new CEO and a fresh interest in localizing its properties, which include both urban and suburban malls.

Earlier this year, CoStar reported the 370,000-square-foot Pioneer Place mall had 70,000 square feet of empty space. The 19 percent vacancy rate can be attributed to Saks Fifth Avenue and Todai Seafood Buffet.

Saks quit Portland in 2010, leaving 60,000 square feet of empty space in its wake. California-based Todai SSB Inc. shut down its 12,000-square-foot restaurant in January.

Clothing retailer H&M leased 25,000 feet of the former Saks space; a Chinese buffet is operating temporarily in the former Todai space.

Plummer said the vacancy rate is an opportunity to rebrand the mall and embrace its urban setting. For instance, street-level tenants will be required to decorate their stores with awnings and even doors.

Thompson said Punch Bowl Social wasn’t designed to fit in malls, but he liked Pioneer Place’s urban location and the management’s vision.

“It speaks well for them that they are working hard to put all the right components in place,” he said. “They are not just going out for the low-hanging fruit.”

Wendy Culverwell covers real estate, retail and hospitality.

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/print-edition/2011/10/21/punch-bowl-comes-to-pioneer-place.html?s=print

[downtownpdx]

I guess this is old news, but it was partly news to me anyway ~~ Yard House restaurant/bar (a chain with lots of microbrews on tap) is moving into the former Saks Fifth Avenue space on 5th/Yamhill.

Apple is definitely moving its store into this space as well. I'm so glad to see that store get out of the basement of a mall, and onto the street!

http://www.oregonlive.com/dining/index.ssf/2011/08/yard_house_ceo_harald_herrmann.html

And Joe's Burgers (never heard of it?) is moving into the former Famous Footwear space on 4th/Morrison. A liquor license application is posted in the door.

[Derek]

I guess this is old news, but it was partly news to me anyway ~~ Yard House restaurant/bar (a chain with lots of microbrews on tap) is moving into the former Saks Fifth Avenue space on 5th/Yamhill.

Apple is definitely moving its store into this space as well. I'm so glad to see that store get out of the basement of a mall, and onto the street!

http://www.oregonlive.com/dining/index.ssf/2011/08/yard_house_ceo_harald_herrmann.html

And Joe's Burgers (never heard of it?) is moving into the former Famous Footwear space on 4th/Morrison. A liquor license application is posted in the door.

The Yard House is a good restaurant, and Apple moving is definitely good news. :D

[MarkDaMan]

There's so much happening in downtown retail right now, it's kinda exciting...I'm wondering what will end up in the huge renovation of the Yeon retail space (they've torn down the bottom floor to the studs) and the formers Borders Store? Those are the only two large retail spaces left downtown, I think.

[2oh1]

Joe's Burgers? I'll have to look that one up because I've never heard of it. It's great that something is going into that Famous Footwear space.

It'll also be great to see Apple move over to some of the old Saks space, especially if it gives them a street presence, but I can't help thinking it's a win/lose deal because it hurts the mall to lose a tenant that drew so much foot traffic inside and downstairs. The recession was pretty hard on the mall. To be honest, the era of the mall (the mall as a concept, not just this particular mall) has passed. The mall really didn't need a second block added ten years ago. I remember when the mall was full back in 2003 (well, the square block was full). Boy are those days gone. The top floor of the square block was a ghost town the last time I was up there, and surely losing Saks hasn't helped. Now, there's a skywalk to nowhere. Apple really is a big draw. Like I said... it's a win some lose some deal.