Atlanta:WATER

[L.ARCH]

With all thats going on right now, I believe this issue is important enough to have its own thread...

Last Friday, my folks (much to my dismay), used the water hose to spray the leaves off the sidewalk in front of their house... While I, on the other hand, have been trying all week long to curb my water use. Which got me thinking... what, if anything, are YOU doing about the current water crisis?

I've read from the news and other media outlets of people using rain barrels to water their gardens, switching to bottled water to drink, taking fewer or shorter baths/showers, and we've all heard the saying "if its yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down." (... well, everyone but my parents.)

What are WE going to do? I can't help but believe that by the time our government figures out a plan we'll all be high and dry without drop to drink. So, instead of asking what are "we" going to do (which is nothing soon), I wanted to ask what are YOU going to do, since no one is going to do it for you?

How are we ever going to keep our sidewalks clean?

[dante2308]

Well, lets say the entire city reduces its water use by 25%. That is only a 8.255% reduction in the water rate coming out of Lake Lanier. That translates to only about 8 more days of water if it doesn't rain. It is nice to think about conserving water, but what we really need to do is go and protest/raid the Core of Engineers.

[ThrashATL]

How are we ever going to keep our sidewalks clean?

Broom? Why would you use water to move leaves, would just make them stick all the more.

[chubbydecker]

They should institute a mandatory "take a shower with a friend" day at least once a week. And if you don't have any friends, this might be a good way to try and make some.

[Plasticman]

We are on a well. The well we have does get low so we have had to:

1. Reduce showers to 2 minutes (amazing how clean you can get in that time if you try).
2. Wear our clothes two days in a row (except underwear and socks).
3. Use disposable plates and cups as often as possible to reduce dishwashing.
4. Wash dishes by hand (which regardless of what ANYONE says if done right will use phenominally less water than an electric dishwasher as we've done it both ways for years and years).
5. Use rainwater to water our goats, chickens, etc.
6. Set our toilet tank at half full which suprisingly works perfectly everytime so we will leave it there even after the drought.
7. We have a yard, not a lawn so we really don't do any outside watering other than our vegetable garden which is kaput for the year. I really don't care if my grass turns brown as it will only be less to mow until the rains come. (although it has rained about 1/2-1" two times in three weeks so the grass still is nice and green).
8. Don't look to the government to solve our problems.

[dante2308]

Please stop this. Even if we stop using water completely. That is we stop taking showers, we stop using toilets, we stop using water to cook or drink, we stop washing hands and dishes, we let billions of dollars of landscaping and natural beauty to wither, we close down all of our commercial uses of water, halt all construction, and we stop consuming Coke from the Coke plant, the lake will still dry up. The mussels in Florida are receiving a lot more water than the region uses people. While we make all these sacrifices, the mussels can barely swim against the current of millions of gallons washing over them. If they can't tell there is a drought down river then something is definitely wrong. The lake was not built for Florida's use, it was built to sustain the city of Atlanta through this exact situation.

If the water allocation rules weren't so unyielding, we would have water for another year even if it didn't rain. That would still give the mussels the natural flow rate of water for the drought we are in. Don't start blaming yourself for this issue. I'm definitely not sharing a shower while mussels drown. My energy is better spent turning off the tap at the dam.

[atlantaguy]

That giant sucking sound you hear is another example of our complete lack of leadership at the State level, and of course, I'm blaming Sonny Bubba.

He has been totally MIA on our transportation crisis (yes, crisis), then not a word about saving Grady - and now this. These boobs that run our State were warned about the water situation several years ago, to no avail. They have been hell-bent on paving over and building out North Georgia, and it would seem it is finally coming back to bite us in the ass.

Thanks Idiot Governor, Jesus-Save-Us Legislature and Corrupt & Evil building/paving lobby. You got your wish - we are now maxed out. Where to next?

Oh, and I can't forget a well deserved F**k You to the assholes at the Army Corp of Engineers - are you guys trying to kill off the 10th largest metro in the country, or does it just seem that way?

[Andrea]

That giant sucking sound you hear is another example of our complete lack of leadership at the State level, ...

I'm amazed that we can build big cities like Las Vegas, LA and Phoenix out in the desert yet we can't get any water here in the lush southern Piedmont, where lakes and streams are abundant.

Interesting chart on water usage in the Atlanta area. Most water is consumed by residential users, with relatively small percentages going to public, commercial and industrial purposes.

http://www.atlantaregional.com/cps/rde/xchg/arc/hs.xsl/295_ENU_HTML.htm

[dante2308]

I'm amazed that we can build big cities like Las Vegas, LA and Phoenix out in the desert yet we can't get any water here in the lush southern Piedmont, where lakes and streams are abundant.

Interesting chart on water usage in the Atlanta area. Most water is consumed by residential users, with relatively small percentages going to public, commercial and industrial purposes.

http://www.atlantaregional.com/cps/rde/xchg/arc/hs.xsl/295_ENU_HTML.htm


Well not that much. Only 53%. Considering that 90% or more of homes are single family, that statistic is not really far-fetched or abnormal. Oh and Atlantaguy, I believe they are trying to kill the 9th largest metro, not the 10th.

For anyone who is interested, here is the discussion on a forum with view from people from other cities: http://www.curevents.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=82697

Most of the views are centered around a let 'em die of thirst solution to our problem. That'll be fun.

[bobdreamz]

Please stop this. Even if we stop using water completely. That is we stop taking showers, we stop using toilets, we stop using water to cook or drink, we stop washing hands and dishes, we let billions of dollars of landscaping and natural beauty to wither, we close down all of our commercial uses of water, halt all construction, and we stop consuming Coke from the Coke plant, the lake will still dry up. The mussels in Florida are receiving a lot more water than the region uses people. While we make all these sacrifices, the mussels can barely swim against the current of millions of gallons washing over them. If they can't tell there is a drought down river then something is definitely wrong. The lake was not built for Florida's use, it was built to sustain the city of Atlanta through this exact situation.

If the water allocation rules weren't so unyielding, we would have water for another year even if it didn't rain. That would still give the mussels the natural flow rate of water for the drought we are in. Don't start blaming yourself for this issue. I'm definitely not sharing a shower while mussels drown. My energy is better spent turning off the tap at the dam.

dante don't you think that is a bit shortsighted blaming Florida & it's mussels downstream for the lack of water at Lake Lanier? Is your state government spineless to stop the flow towards Florida in a crisis such as this? I also have to agree with Atlantaguy on his point regarding the paving over of northern
Georgia/metro Atlanta. Low density sprawl is one of the downsides to in situations like this. Have you guys not learned from your neighbor to the south?!

[atlantaguy]

bob - It would appear the State is powerless to override the Army Corp on this. On Friday, Sonny-Bubba threatened to sue them by this week if they didn't stop the releases from Lake Lanier. Their response was that they intend to increase the outflow from the lake. What is really pissing us off more than the mussels in the Apalachicola River is the fact that Alabama is receiving 1/2 of the water released - BUT THEY HAVE NO WATERING RESTRICTIONS over there!!!!!!!!!!

Just last year the Corp mistakenly released over a billion gallons in one day - oops!

On the local news last night they showed a family from West Central Georgia whose private lake had been completely emptied by the Corp just over the weekend. It sounds insane, but I think there may be some sort of bizarre agenda going on at the Corp - but why?

[Andrea]

Well not that much. Only 53%. Considering that 90% or more of homes are single family, that statistic is not really far-fetched or abnormal.

Well, I get 55%, but either way I don't think that's abnormal at all. I will have to admit, however, that I would not have guessed that industrial, commercial and public combined only account for about 1/4 of water use.

[whoDean]

Please stop this. Even if we stop using water completely.

Water conservation is most definitely a part of the long term water solution, you have to look beyond the current crisis to future-proof the system, beginning by reducing water consumption by any means responsibly necessary.

[dante2308]

dante don't you think that is a bit shortsighted blaming Florida & it's mussels downstream for the lack of water at Lake Lanier? Is your state government spineless to stop the flow towards Florida in a crisis such as this? I also have to agree with Atlantaguy on his point regarding the paving over of northern
Georgia/metro Atlanta. Low density sprawl is one of the downsides to in situations like this. Have you guys not learned from your neighbor to the south?!

I'm sorry. We should take notes from the people who sit on the largest source of fresh water in the continental United States about water conservation. You realize that our drought and the mussels taking 35 times as much water away from us as we collect from rain has nothing to do with sprawl? In fact, we are dense enough when it comes down to water use thank you. The problem isn't our growth or our single family homes, it is the Army Corp of Engineers. We built the lake for this and they drained it for mussels.

[dante2308]

Water conservation is most definitely a part of the long term water solution, you have to look beyond the current crisis to future-proof the system, beginning by reducing water consumption by any means responsibly necessary.

It isn't as if we don't conserve water every time we are told to. I think the long term solution is a new source of water. If our city keeps growing by a million each decade, we really can't expect that any amount of conservation would solve the problem.

[dante2308]

Water may be more limited
Georgia considering options almost unheard of for metro areas. Environmental director must send Perdue choices within two weeks.

By MATT KEMPNER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 10/15/07

If Georgia orders watering restrictions in metro Atlanta beyond the current outdoor ban, it will be taking drought-fighting steps that not even arid Southern California or Las Vegas has had to make.

As the state considers restrictions on commercial and industrial users, water experts around the nation say they don't recall any major U.S. metro area being forced into such dire drought measures in about two decades.

"Most large metropolitan areas have systems in place where they try to be better managers of the resource than that," said Don Wilhite, who founded the National Drought Mitigation Center at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and has been involved in drought responses for at least three decades.

Within two weeks, Georgia Environmental Protection Division director Carol Couch is expected to send Gov. Sonny Perdue options to tighten water restrictions.

Couch has authority to limit water use as necessary with as little as five days' notice.

State law says, "In the event of a dire emergency, only water for domestic and personal uses, for drinking, cooking, washing, sanitary purposes and all health related activities will be permitted. Farm uses will be given second priority; however, all other usages will be established by the Director."

State regulations recommend how water users should be ranked in drought contingency plans. The first use to be cut is outdoor recreation; the second is uses such as watering lawns and gardens and the noncommercial washing of cars. Most of those were eliminated under Couch's Sept. 28 order for metro Atlanta and North Georgia.

The next category to be restricted is commercial and industrial use, followed by farming, and then personal uses.

The last to be restricted would be emergency facilities for essential life support.

Couch's staff continues to work on the details of what might be proposed to the governor. The report is expected to include an analysis of potential water savings as well as the economic cost of restrictions.

However, there's little experience in how to impose limits beyond an outdoor watering ban.

A number of small towns have made such moves. But conservation experts and water system officials across the country — from Massachusetts to San Francisco and Santa Fe, N.M., to southern Florida — say they can't recall a major metropolitan area in nation doing so.

However, in 1985, New York City ordered businesses to cut water use by 25 percent and limited the hours offices could run air conditioning.

But such steps are rare.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, southern California shriveled in a deep drought. Watering outdoors was limited to certain days, and restaurants were encouraged to only serve patrons water on request, said Jeff Kightlinger, the general manager of the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, which provides water to systems that serve 18 million people.

Lots of money was spent on radio and TV ads to encourage water conservation. One that particularly got attention was a call for limited toilet flushing: "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down."

"It became kind of patriotic to let your lawn dry up," said Kightlinger, who was in college at the time. "People banded together."

But he said the area never ordered limits beyond outdoor water restrictions. Neither did the Denver area, even during a brutal drought from 2002 to 2004, said Trina McGuire-Collier, a spokeswoman for Denver Water.

Denver gets about a third as much annual precipitation as metro Atlanta. That the Georgia city might be contemplating stiffer water restrictions "is amazing," McGuire-Collier said. "Of all places, you think you get a lot of precipitation."

Even the outdoor watering ban already in place in north Georgia is relatively uncommon for major U.S. cities, though Charlotte has put such limits in place this year.

But water watchers such as Wilhite, the University of Nebraska drought expert who is sometimes referred to as "Dr. Drought," predict that more big metro areas in the East will face predicaments like Atlanta's.

"The Eastern states are more vulnerable than the West," Wilhite said. The West learned long ago that they needed large backup supplies, such as giant reservoirs, he said. But in the East, long-term droughts are less common and "there's less emphasis on water conservation. They can get themselves into a situation more quickly.

"Coupled with population growth, a severe drought over a year or two or longer creates problems they've never had to deal with before," Wilhite said.

Amy Vickers, a water conservation consultant and author based in Amherst, Mass., said outdoor watering has increased dramatically in the last decade, drawing down water supplies more quickly and leaving government with less time to respond to a drought.

"We need to act sooner in imposing these more restrictive measures," Vickers said, "because we may not have as much time as we had in the past to rebound."

In Georgia, after the summer's peak watering days, the state ordered the outdoor watering ban. It came about a week after the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers predicted Lake Lanier would hit a historic low by year's end.

EPD officials said the state moved toward a ban as soon as the magnitude of the problems became more clear.

"We're running as fast as we can to put in responsible plans," Couch said.

Metro Atlanta is in an unfamiliar position. But some small communities have been there before.

In central North Carolina, drought has drained much of the reservoir for Siler City, a community of 8,000. Last week, officials ordered all water users — from homeowners to industries — to cut water use by 50 percent.

"We're asking them to do whatever it takes," town manager Joel Brower said.

Violators can be fined or, ultimately, have their water cut off.

Siler City utilities workers are checking some business' water meters every week, but there isn't enough staff to do the same at homes, Brower said. Schools and restaurants serve food on paper plates to cut down on dish washing. Local poultry plants have dropped one day a week of production, and they're paying for dozens of tanker trucks a day to haul water to the town's reservoir.

In metro Atlanta, several businesses say they don't know what the state may force them to do.

With 1,260 guest rooms, the Hyatt Regency Atlanta uses tens of millions of gallons of water a year. But Randy Childers, the hotel's senior director of engineering, said many conservation measures are already in place. The hotel outsources its laundry to a facility outside metro Atlanta, guests are requested to hang up their towels if they don't need to be laundered, rooms have low-flow fixtures, the cooling system optimizes water use and, since the drought deepened, irrigation of plants has been done with condensation from the cooling system. The hotel now puts fewer water pitchers in meeting rooms, he said.

"In some ways, we feel like we have done as much as we can do, but there may be things we can do that we just haven't thought of," he said.

Some local governments in Georgia are working up their own plans.

Officials in Athens-Clarke County are considering how to cut 30 percent of their water use. Among the considerations is restricting water use according to type, such as residential, business or various types of industry.

In Douglas County, the local water authority director said industries could be forced to reduce water use, perhaps by changing operations or temporarily shifting work to other facilities.

Pete Frost said another possibility is routing the treated flows from sewage plants into the authority's drinking water reservoir. That would require state approval in addition to facing public relations challenges, he said.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...age_tab_newstab

[L.ARCH]

I think it's scary all we can do is threaten to sue the Corps when WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF WATER TO DRINK. Its a proven fact, lawsuits take FOREVER. Any chance the State (whoever they may be) could take back our lake by force? If not... is anyone of you up for it? :hell:

[dante2308]

Hell yeah. Actually, if you want to stage a protest, I'm up for it.

[(four 0 four)]

5. Use rainwater to water our goats, chickens, etc.
Words that I never thought I would read on SSP!:)

[Trae]

If I could, I would take buckets of water from Houston's recent floods, and bring it to Atlanta.

One of the best things you all can do is start buying bottles of water and drink off of that. If you really want some koolaid, or lemonade, you can buy little packs in the store that you can sprinkle into your water. Take short (but clean) baths. Also, don't try to cheat the rules, as it only hurts the water situation.

[dante2308]

If I could, I would take buckets of water from Houston's recent floods, and bring it to Atlanta.

One of the best things you all can do is start buying bottles of water and drink off of that. If you really want some koolaid, or lemonade, you can buy little packs in the store that you can sprinkle into your water. Take short (but clean) baths. Also, don't try to cheat the rules, as it only hurts the water situation.

Another list of things that will not change the fact that we run out of water in 80 days.

[Trae]

It is weird how Atlanta is usually a city that gets a lot of rain, but it has been so different this year. When the drought first started, I thought it would go away soon, but it didn't. There is still time left for a little tropical storm to blow over Atlanta, but the odds of that happening are very slim.

[Sulley]

Has the water pressure been cut in the city?

When I stayed at the Westin Peachtree Plaza this weekend, the shower pressure was barely a trickle... and the water smelled of algae.

[ThrashATL]

Atlanta has heavy rain forcast for Thursday. I will be backing the car out of the garage and washing it via the rainfall. Been 4 months since it was washed and quite frankly, I never thought it'd ever get as dirty as it looks now. Also have a big plastic swimming pool for the dogs that I will be diverting rainwater into from the gutter downspouts. Something I can dredge a bucket in and water some bushes that were planted this year that still haven't quite taken hold since MARCH. My yard feels like corn flakes but at least I don't have to mow it but once a month.

[sunking1056]

regardless of what conservation efforts will or won't do to help our current situation, I think we should emphasize them so that when (if?) this problem gets resolved, it won't be able to sneak up on us quite so quickly again. If for nothing else, I'm glad this has gotten people to consider just how much water they waste every day and perhaps change their habits.

[Trae]

Maybe the construction of more area lakes will help. They can also provide good recreational purposes. DFW went through I drought last year, and their area lakes (about 12 I think) kept them through it.

[Rail Claimore]

If I could, I would take buckets of water from Houston's recent floods, and bring it to Atlanta.

Likewise. Texas and the Great Lakes are the only parts of the country that have seen more rain than normal. Half of Wisconsin was under water when I moved back up here in August.

[Rail Claimore]

Maybe the construction of more area lakes will help. They can also provide good recreational purposes. DFW went through I drought last year, and their area lakes (about 12 I think) kept them through it.

Atlanta has only two large equivalent lakes rather than 12. Houston is in a similar situation to Atlanta, except that your two lakes are much bigger than even Lake Lanier (the bigger of Atlanta's two). Houston also gets a crapton more rain and, I believe, even has desal contributing to the water supply.

Put simply, Atlanta is the only major metro area (5+ million) that relies on such a small source of water. It was only a matter of time before something like this happened. The only true long-term steps Georgia has taken to solve this problem is to study the feasibility of desal on the Georgia coast.

[jfsatlbldr]

I've noticed the wealthy neighborhoods seem to have all the water they need. I counted 13 lawn sprinklers either running or recently used showing evidence on the pavement and even puddles along Ridgewood Road and another adjoining road in NW Atlanta on my way to work on Monday morning.

How many votes do i hear for turning the whole neighborhood in to the water patrols? Granted some may have wells but not that many and even wells run dry during a prolonged drought.

[dante2308]

regardless of what conservation efforts will or won't do to help our current situation, I think we should emphasize them so that when (if?) this problem gets resolved, it won't be able to sneak up on us quite so quickly again. If for nothing else, I'm glad this has gotten people to consider just how much water they waste every day and perhaps change their habits.

See, we don't really waste that much water as it is. We just need a new water source. Water is not a rare commodity. It isn't something local environmentalists even need to think about. A few desal plants would immediately solve our problem. Save your gas, water is renewable.

[Trae]

Atlanta has only two large equivalent lakes rather than 12. Houston is in a similar situation to Atlanta, except that your two lakes are much bigger than even Lake Lanier (the bigger of Atlanta's two). Houston also gets a crapton more rain and, I believe, even has desal contributing to the water supply.

Put simply, Atlanta is the only major metro area (5+ million) that relies on such a small source of water. It was only a matter of time before something like this happened. The only true long-term steps Georgia has taken to solve this problem is to study the feasibility of desal on the Georgia coast.

These don't even show the three largest lakes in DFW, but you can get that complete list here (http://www.town-mall.net/community/texas_lakes.html):

http://www.metroplextbc.org/images/dfw-map-wide.gif

And Lake Lanier is actually quite a bit larger than Lake Houston (I think). Lake Conroe is bigger I believe though. I really think more lakes would solve this problem if(when) it happens in the future.

[Rail Claimore]

Lake Lanier in Atlanta is 38,000 acres. DFW, from that list has 5 at least in its size category, plus two monster ones. So DFW, a metro area roughly 1.2 times the size of Atlanta, has 8 or 9 times as much water to draw off of.

Just to give you an idea of lake size, TVA's three lakes on the Tennessee River in northern Alabama are all over 60,000 acres, and two of them (Guntersville and Wheeler) are among the five largest man-made lakes east of the Mississippi. The only lake in Georgia that is of that size is Lake Strom Thurmond, which is on the border with South Carolina.

Actually, I meant Lake Livingston, not Lake Houston. Lake Conroe is slightly smaller than Lake Lanier. Lake Lanier is pretty deep though, 140 ft.

[sunking1056]

See, we don't really waste that much water as it is. We just need a new water source. Water is not a rare commodity. It isn't something local environmentalists even need to think about. A few desal plants would immediately solve our problem. Save your gas, water is renewable.

I completely disagree. We pee in 6 liters of drinking water. WTF. That's just a sign that our society messed something up way back.

[dante2308]

I completely disagree. We pee in 6 liters of drinking water. WTF. That's just a sign that our society messed something up way back.

Water is the only liquid that is abundant enough to be peed in.... As I said, it isn't supposed to be rare. It is basically covering our planet and when we use it, it goes back into the cycle and eventually comes back down as rain. Perfect, renewable, abundant. Great, lets use it for everything. Now if only we were capable of planning ahead.

Save the strict water conservation to the space station.

[sunking1056]

except the vast majority of water on this planet is not fit for consumption without inputting significant amounts of energy, which most definitely has to be considered. Not to mention global accessibility to water, but that's a completely different issue. And that by using it, we are polluting it which then requires energy to clean and, when not cleaned, is often returned to the environment and damages the ecosystem. Using less water would lessen our impact all down the line.

[LoveAtlanta]

we should pray for the rain

[Terminus]

That giant sucking sound you hear is another example of our complete lack of leadership at the State level, and of course, I'm blaming Sonny Bubba.

He has been totally MIA on our transportation crisis (yes, crisis), then not a word about saving Grady - and now this. These boobs that run our State were warned about the water situation several years ago, to no avail. They have been hell-bent on paving over and building out North Georgia, and it would seem it is finally coming back to bite us in the ass.

Thanks Idiot Governor, Jesus-Save-Us Legislature and Corrupt & Evil building/paving lobby. You got your wish - we are now maxed out. Where to next?

Oh, and I can't forget a well deserved F**k You to the assholes at the Army Corp of Engineers - are you guys trying to kill off the 10th largest metro in the country, or does it just seem that way?

Atlanta Regional Commission has been warning of the region's over-reliance on the lake for decades now, but the leadership, of all parties, has been unwilling to pro-actively plan (sound familiar?). They have been saying that there will be no more water capacity by 2030 under NORMAL climactic considerations - not to mention climate change models that suggest that the non-coastal southeast will become dryer and hotter.

This year is just a taste of things to come.

[dante2308]

Okay, so now I'm hearing the drought might last for decades? Isn't the ARC supposed to make predictions based in reality? They have been under predicting our growth for decades in order to keep our environmental rating up which includes underestimating our water use levels. 2030 is a completely different year from right now.


here is a friendly video:
BYCbgSmIi84

The worst problem is really a lack of pumpkins. I know I wont survive the pumpkin shortage myself.

[Plasticman]

Words that I never thought I would read on SSP!:)

LOL - What can I say? I live in a rural area but love visiting the city. Atlanta's less than an hour away and we go there often. But home is where we get away from the chaos.

[Chris Creech]

A couple of years ago I installed rain barrels on the two gutter spouts in the back corners of my yard. it's the kits you can get from several places on the internet with the recycled 55 gallon dark green plastic drums they use for shipping olives internationally. They just add the screw top lids with the screens, and a faucet on the bottom. Then I was able to run irrigation hoses from each one to cover most of my landscaping in my back yard. The irrigation system is set up to only drip by each individual shrub over a long period of time. I have a lot of hydrangeas that take a lot of water in the summer.

These are pretty amazing, pretty much any thundershower that lasts more than 20 mins will completely fill them up. Then I wait a few days and can let half the water out into the yard, then the rest a few days later. If I were to just leave the faucets open, with the drip system, it would take a full day for all the water to drain. So it's a very efficient watering system, I'm not watering the whole yard, just what needs it.

Even in this drought my landscaping has hardly wilted at all. Again, I was blown away by how much water can come off the average roof in even a small storm. If there's a full day of rain the barrels will overflow and another overflow hose diverts the water out into the yard.

When I reseached this I was surprised that Atlanta DOESN"T have a program in place to get rainbarrels in place. Most cities, especially out west and in CA, have extensive rain barrel programs where you can get them at a discount through city programs, and they tell you how to install and make the best use of them.

Atlanta should have a rain barrel program. (Especially since one major source of the recycled rain barrels are the black 55 plastic drums that Coca-Cola ships syrup to bottlers in.)

Also, for my front step/porch plants my AC drip is right by my steps. On hot days I can easily get a full bucket of water for those plants, where it otherwise would have just dripped away and been lost.

[Tombstoner]

:previous: :tup: :tup: :tup:
I'm originally from the parched, rural Southwest and have always been water-usage-phobic. I use rainbarrels too, wash dishes by hand (though we're very middle class and have a perfectly good stainless steel dishwasher like every other good yuppie), and turn the shower off between lathering up and rinsing off (and I won't disclose other bathroom practices ;)--nothing too disgusting). Everyone thought I was weird, but now it's catching on (my friends still think I'm weird, but for other reasons).
I think it's a little outrageous for Perdon't to want to be declared a federal disaster when he (and all GA politicians) have done NOTHING to promote conservation.

[SteveD]

Conservation is good and necessary; however, I heard a talking head on television yesterday reveal a statistic that, if true, is sort of mind-boggling.

This woman was claiming that 120 million gallons are lost throughout the metro area each day due to leaking pipes!? Sort of makes the 1 gallon of gray water I've been using to water all my potted plants seem moot.

[dante2308]

Conservation is good and necessary; however, I heard a talking head on television yesterday reveal a statistic that, if true, is sort of mind-boggling.

This woman was claiming that 120 million gallons are lost throughout the metro area each day due to leaking pipes!? Sort of makes the 1 gallon of gray water I've been using to water all my potted plants seem moot.

The half billion that the Corps releases doubles the insignificance of any conservation method we employ. The problem will only be solved when the drought ends. All the sacrifices we made serve mostly to bring attention to our problem rather than actually put a dent in it.

[blueb73]

hopefully, once the rains come back the lessons learned will not be forgotten.

one for sure, get another reservoir or two, and make sure its controlled by the state.

[Tombstoner]

... All the sacrifices we made serve mostly to bring attention to our problem rather than actually put a dent in it.

True, but drawing attention to the problem is the first step. If everyone felt they were making some sacrifice to conserve, they'd be a lot more up in arms when they hear about waste and mismanagement. This can be easily expanded to other areas of national life (oil and war come to mind). If no one makes sacrifices, it's always someone else's problem. As an educational theorist I know says, "the first step to solving any problem is to see it as your problem."

[trainiac]

hopefully, once the rains come back the lessons learned will not be forgotten.

one for sure, get another reservoir or two, and make sure its controlled by the state.

Did the feds fund Buford Dam or did they take it over at a later time?

Somebody upthread mentioned the lake was built to last 100 years. That's twice as long as the 50 years Mayor Hartsfield planned for in the 1950s and he wondered what we'd do when it got silted up. Can you remove silt? Could we do it while the lake level is this low?

Bellwood Quarry is starting to look like one hell of a good idea.

[trainiac]

This is pretty interesting:

...exploring options for selling water from the Macon Water Authority to Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.

Ellis said he broached the idea with Atlanta officials Tuesday morning and was waiting to hear what their exact need might be and what storage capacity they have available.

...

"We know that this thing is serious," Ellis said. And, he added, Macon is in a "very unique" position to help out: "We have plenty of water."

While metro Atlanta grapples with the possibility of a water calamity, Macon has a 6.5 billion gallon reservoir with enough water to supply the area for nearly 500 days, according to the Macon Water Authority. Meanwhile, Lake Lanier, a 38,000-acre reservoir located north of Atlanta and the source of water for more than 3 million residents, reportedly is less than three months from depletion....

http://www.macon.com/198/story/168075.html

[SteveD]

I wonder where he's getting that 6.5 billion gallons is enough to supply water for 500 days? I understood the portion of the metro area served by Lanier to use on the order of 500 million gallons per day (about 3 million people). 6.5 billion gallons would therefore be more like a two-week supply of water. Maybe he's talking about City of Atlanta only? Or, the water needs at the Hartsfield-Jackson only? By contrast, Lanier holds a total of 832 billion gallons (at elevation 1,085 ft), of which 342 billion gallons is in the "conservation pool" (between elevations 1,070 ft and 1,035 ft). Still, Macon's 6.5 billion gallons would represent considerably more than is planned for the reservoir at Bellwood Quarry along the beltline, which would have a capacity of only about 1.9 billion gallons. We'll take it any way we can get it, I'm sure.

[Go7SD]

I think there is a technology already in use in a few other countries that convert salt water into fresh. I think with the help of federal funding a pipeline similar to the gas lines could be use to supply fresh water from the desal plants off the coast to metro Atlanta. Another option to help fund this is the "water tax". It would be an expensive project but would be much cheaper than Atlanta being impacted economically long term.

[brickell]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/columnists/fred_grimm/v-print/story/280876.html

Georgia's dry, but guv sounds like a wet hen
By FRED GRIMM
Recriminations have been flowing out of Georgia in torrents. Water? Not so much.

Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue has been squealing like a stuck pig, claiming Florida and the Corps of Engineers and pointy-headed environmentalists have conspired to deprive the suffering residents in drought-stricken Atlanta of their very drinking water.

The Georgia congressional delegation showed up at the governor's mean-talking press conference on Friday. Us Floridians, they said bitterly, were willing to sacrifice actual human beings, the Georgian variety, just to save a bunch of slimy river mussels.

Down in Apalachicola, the nasty talk out of Georgia was beyond irritating. ''I wouldn't say I was irritated. I'd say I was mad as hell,'' said Dan Tonsmeire, who runs the Apalachicola Riverkeeper, the advocacy group that looks after the fragile estuary of the Apalachicola River and bay.

POLITICAL MUSSEL?

Perdue and the North Georgia crowd are upset because the Corps makes sure that at least 5,000 cubic feet of water per second flows out of Lake Lanier and down the Chattahoochee River, a major tributary of the Apalachicola River. Lake Lanier also serves as the main reservoir for the Atlanta metropolitan area. Lingering drought conditions have left Lake Lanier nine feet below normal depths. And falling.

Perdue claims the Corps only persists in draining Lake Lanier to satisfy the draconian requirements of the U.S. Endangered Species Act, because if the Apalachicola River flow drops much further, it'll be the end of purple backclimber mussel. Georgia Congressman Phil Gringrey said the policy threatened to turn the people of Georgia ``into endangered species themselves.''

TO HECK WITH US

But sound bites flowing out of Georgia sound like lies in Apalachicola. More than mussels would be endangered if Georgia takes more out of the watershed. Shrimp, sturgeon and Apalachicola's famous oysters would be devastated. Less flow would inhibit the crawfish that sustain local birds and mammals. Mussels, Tonsmeire said, were ''the canaries in the coal mine.'' When they go, the entire Apalachicola estuary's in trouble.

But Perdue declared a disaster in Georgia and war on his neighbors. He asked President Bush to intervene. And he went to federal court seeking an injunction, to hell with the folks down river in Florida and Alabama.

Other natural disasters -- tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods -- inspire neighborly outpourings of sympathy, charity and caravans of relief trucks. Droughts inspire something else.

''Droughts bring out the worst,'' said Mark Svoboda of the National Drought Mitigation Center in Lincoln, Neb.

YEARS OF NEGLECT

Perdue told National Public Radio Monday evening that drastic, unneighborly measures were necessary because Georgia had never seen such a drought as this before.

Not since 1988 anyway. But the drought of 2007 hit after 19 years of unmitigated growth with no planning for the water demands of so many more people. It was as if water was an unlimited resource.

It wasn't. Not in metro Atlanta. Not in South Florida. Not in the growth corridors of the Carolinas, Tennessee, Alabama. The Sun Belt may have unlimited notions about growth and development but it doesn't have unlimited supply of the one essential resource.

''Somebody down the road is going to have to make some tough decisions,'' Svoboda said. ``You can't keep hooking up more people to the water supply.''

[dante2308]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/columnists/fred_grimm/v-print/story/280876.html

Georgia's dry, but guv sounds like a wet hen
By FRED GRIMM
Recriminations have been flowing out of Georgia in torrents. Water? Not so much.

Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue has been squealing like a stuck pig, claiming Florida and the Corps of Engineers and pointy-headed environmentalists have conspired to deprive the suffering residents in drought-stricken Atlanta of their very drinking water.

The Georgia congressional delegation showed up at the governor's mean-talking press conference on Friday. Us Floridians, they said bitterly, were willing to sacrifice actual human beings, the Georgian variety, just to save a bunch of slimy river mussels.

Down in Apalachicola, the nasty talk out of Georgia was beyond irritating. ''I wouldn't say I was irritated. I'd say I was mad as hell,'' said Dan Tonsmeire, who runs the Apalachicola Riverkeeper, the advocacy group that looks after the fragile estuary of the Apalachicola River and bay.

POLITICAL MUSSEL?

Perdue and the North Georgia crowd are upset because the Corps makes sure that at least 5,000 cubic feet of water per second flows out of Lake Lanier and down the Chattahoochee River, a major tributary of the Apalachicola River. Lake Lanier also serves as the main reservoir for the Atlanta metropolitan area. Lingering drought conditions have left Lake Lanier nine feet below normal depths. And falling.

Perdue claims the Corps only persists in draining Lake Lanier to satisfy the draconian requirements of the U.S. Endangered Species Act, because if the Apalachicola River flow drops much further, it'll be the end of purple backclimber mussel. Georgia Congressman Phil Gringrey said the policy threatened to turn the people of Georgia ``into endangered species themselves.''

TO HECK WITH US

But sound bites flowing out of Georgia sound like lies in Apalachicola. More than mussels would be endangered if Georgia takes more out of the watershed. Shrimp, sturgeon and Apalachicola's famous oysters would be devastated. Less flow would inhibit the crawfish that sustain local birds and mammals. Mussels, Tonsmeire said, were ''the canaries in the coal mine.'' When they go, the entire Apalachicola estuary's in trouble.

But Perdue declared a disaster in Georgia and war on his neighbors. He asked President Bush to intervene. And he went to federal court seeking an injunction, to hell with the folks down river in Florida and Alabama.

Other natural disasters -- tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods -- inspire neighborly outpourings of sympathy, charity and caravans of relief trucks. Droughts inspire something else.

''Droughts bring out the worst,'' said Mark Svoboda of the National Drought Mitigation Center in Lincoln, Neb.

YEARS OF NEGLECT

Perdue told National Public Radio Monday evening that drastic, unneighborly measures were necessary because Georgia had never seen such a drought as this before.

Not since 1988 anyway. But the drought of 2007 hit after 19 years of unmitigated growth with no planning for the water demands of so many more people. It was as if water was an unlimited resource.

It wasn't. Not in metro Atlanta. Not in South Florida. Not in the growth corridors of the Carolinas, Tennessee, Alabama. The Sun Belt may have unlimited notions about growth and development but it doesn't have unlimited supply of the one essential resource.

''Somebody down the road is going to have to make some tough decisions,'' Svoboda said. ``You can't keep hooking up more people to the water supply.''

Cheers to reporter bias!

[L.ARCH]

If there were no dam then there would be less water than what we are letting go... Cheers to stupidity:cheers:

[blueb73]

I think there is a technology already in use in a few other countries that convert salt water into fresh. I think with the help of federal funding a pipeline similar to the gas lines could be use to supply fresh water from the desal plants off the coast to metro Atlanta. Another option to help fund this is the "water tax". It would be an expensive project but would be much cheaper than Atlanta being impacted economically long term.

def an option, but i dont know how much you can get from that.

we got one down here, and i doubt we get 50 million gallons a day from it, and its pretty big.

so, youd need alot of them, or a few massive ones.

[Fiorenza]

What's going to happen is the state will help build some smaller lakes to capture stream runoff, and the Bellwood quarry and other quarries will become reservoirs that capture water from storm drainage as well as from rivers during times of excessive flow.

Never fear - Atlanta still has plenty of inexpensive options on water!

[Fiorenza]

There's a quarry just south of I-85 in Gwinnett that supposedly is the largest granite quarry in the world. It's an incredible hole....much bigger than anything in Midtown. :)

[neilson]

That giant sucking sound you hear is another example of our complete lack of leadership at the State level, and of course, I'm blaming Sonny Bubba.

He has been totally MIA on our transportation crisis (yes, crisis), then not a word about saving Grady - and now this. These boobs that run our State were warned about the water situation several years ago, to no avail. They have been hell-bent on paving over and building out North Georgia, and it would seem it is finally coming back to bite us in the ass.

Thanks Idiot Governor, Jesus-Save-Us Legislature and Corrupt & Evil building/paving lobby. You got your wish - we are now maxed out. Where to next?

Oh, and I can't forget a well deserved F**k You to the assholes at the Army Corp of Engineers - are you guys trying to kill off the 10th largest metro in the country, or does it just seem that way?

Is there a Water Crisis in Augusta, Savannah, or Brunswick? No. Why's that? Because they aren't relying on 2 lakes for their water.

BTW I've only been hearing about Lake Lanier and the Chattahoochee, what's the status on Lake Allatoona(ATL and North GA's "other" big lake for drinking water) and the Coosa River? I'm not sure why, but it kinda bothers me how it seems everyone on here has only been focusing on Lake Lanier and not discussing Allatoona(which I'd hope has more water left, even if it's a smaller sized lake).

It's just sad that areas like Macon/Warner Robins have their house in order with water vs. ATL(though, I've heard estimates that Macon metro has 500 days worth of water available which isn't a whole lot if I recall).

[Fiorenza]

Lake Allatoona has pretty much the same problem as Lanier, but good news is, a massive reservoir is already well advanced in construction somewhere in the vicinity of Allatoona. It's supposed to handle growth in the north Cobb and Cherokee areas for well into the future. Meaning probably six to nine months. :)

[Sketching]

Is there a Water Crisis in Augusta, Savannah, or Brunswick? No. Why's that? Because they aren't relying on 2 lakes for their water.

BTW I've only been hearing about Lake Lanier and the Chattahoochee, what's the status on Lake Allatoona(ATL and North GA's "other" big lake for drinking water) and the Coosa River? I'm not sure why, but it kinda bothers me how it seems everyone on here has only been focusing on Lake Lanier and not discussing Allatoona(which I'd hope has more water left, even if it's a smaller sized lake).

It's just sad that areas like Macon/Warner Robins have their house in order with water vs. ATL(though, I've heard estimates that Macon metro has 500 days worth of water available which isn't a whole lot if I recall).

Macon is apparently just fine on water if they are looking to sell water to their northern neighbors.

Macon Mayor: Sell Water to Hartsfield

MACON, Ga. (AP) -- While northern Georgia struggles in the grip of a drought, a central Georgia mayor says his own city has plenty of water and he'd like to sell some of it.

Macon Mayor Jack Ellis said he is exploring the idea of selling water from the Macon Water Authority to Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport. Ellis said he discussed the idea with Atlanta officials yesterday morning.

But an Atlanta official says that hauling water from Macon would cost too much.

Macon has a 6.5 billion gallon reservoir and enough water for nearly 500 days, according to the Macon Water Authority. Lake Lanier, which supplies water to more than three million residents in and around metro Atlanta, is at historic low levels. Governor Perdue has ordered north Georgia businesses and utilities to cut water usage by ten percent, starting November 1.

Georgia's drought is concentrated in its northern and western counties. Most of central and southeastern Georgia is not facing a water shortage.

Ellis said he focused on Hartsfield-Jackson because it is Georgia's main economic engine and must be protected. He said that if Macon can supply the airport with water, that will free more water for use elsewhere in north Georgia.

Ellis said he has asked the director of the Macon-Bibb County Emergency Management Agency to look for tanker trucks that could haul the water.

[Sketching]

Lake Allatoona has pretty much the same problem as Lanier, but good news is, a massive reservoir is already well advanced in construction somewhere in the vicinity of Allatoona. It's supposed to handle growth in the north Cobb and Cherokee areas for well into the future. Meaning probably six to nine months. :)

If you are referring to the Hickory Log Creek Reservoir in Cherokee County it is estimated that it will be two more years before it comes online. The drought is actually slowing the progress on the reservoir in two ways. With the burn ban in place they cannot burn the trees that have been cleared and additionally it will take longer to fill the reservoir because of the lack of rainfall.

This reservoir is expected to only provide a 3% increase in water capacity for Cherokee and Cobb Counties. The reservoir will contain 5.7 billion gallons of water once it fills.

Link to a WSB-TV video report filed this week on the reservoir (http://www.wsbtv.com/video/14398312/index.html).

[Chris Creech]

Macon is apparently just fine on water if they are looking to sell water to their northern neighbors.

Macon Mayor: Sell Water to HartsfieldI]


Just curious, do any other areas network metro areas statewide with any sort of pipeline system. I know Georgia is already criss-crossed with oil and gas pipelines - is it just not cost-effective enough to do so for water?

It seems like if you had a water "grid" of pipelines across cities like Atlanta, Chattanooga, Macon, Savannah. You could have a give and take from cities that had excesses and cities that were running short at the time.

It would almost be like the power grid where you could be managing production and needs over a large area as needed.

I guess a big problem with that though would be that you'd then need a statewide water entity to administer.

[sprtsluvr8]

Is there a Water Crisis in Augusta, Savannah, or Brunswick? No. Why's that? Because they aren't relying on 2 lakes for their water.

BTW I've only been hearing about Lake Lanier and the Chattahoochee, what's the status on Lake Allatoona(ATL and North GA's "other" big lake for drinking water) and the Coosa River? I'm not sure why, but it kinda bothers me how it seems everyone on here has only been focusing on Lake Lanier and not discussing Allatoona(which I'd hope has more water left, even if it's a smaller sized lake).

It's just sad that areas like Macon/Warner Robins have their house in order with water vs. ATL(though, I've heard estimates that Macon metro has 500 days worth of water available which isn't a whole lot if I recall).

According to the ARC website, metro Atlanta gets 84% of its water supply from the Chattahoochee/Lake Lanier and the Etowah/Lake Allatoona. Lake Lanier, at 38,000 acres, is 3 times the size of 12,800 acre Lake Allatoona. This map from ARC shows where the water supply of various metro areas comes from:

http://www.atlantaregional.com/arc/images/watersupply.gif

There are three MAJOR resevoirs to the Northeast of Atlanta that total about 150,000 acres - Lake Hartwell, Lake Thurmond, and Lake Russell. All three are on the Savannah River and lie partly in Georgia and partly in S.C., yet the state of Georgia/metro Atlanta is not allowed to draw from these lakes. At least half of the watershed for the lakes is in Georgia...does anyone know why we can't use this plentiful supply of water?

[dante2308]

Is there a Water Crisis in Augusta, Savannah, or Brunswick? No. Why's that? Because they aren't relying on 2 lakes for their water.

BTW I've only been hearing about Lake Lanier and the Chattahoochee, what's the status on Lake Allatoona(ATL and North GA's "other" big lake for drinking water) and the Coosa River? I'm not sure why, but it kinda bothers me how it seems everyone on here has only been focusing on Lake Lanier and not discussing Allatoona(which I'd hope has more water left, even if it's a smaller sized lake).

It's just sad that areas like Macon/Warner Robins have their house in order with water vs. ATL(though, I've heard estimates that Macon metro has 500 days worth of water available which isn't a whole lot if I recall).

Um, according to the drought map, all those places aren't in the drought we are.
http://drought.unl.edu/dm/pics/ga_dm.png

Savannah and Brunswick actually had above average rainfall this year...

[Go7SD]

def an option, but i dont know how much you can get from that.

we got one down here, and i doubt we get 50 million gallons a day from it, and its pretty big.

so, youd need alot of them, or a few massive ones.

If that's the case Georgia could plan for a huge desal project that would make the Guinness Book of World Records. It would be very expensive but well worth it in the long run. Problem solved. The History Channel could do a special of it on Modern Marvels for a future broadcast. We have the technology but with enough support it could happen. Also Georgia could make a killing off neighboring states. Water like oil is a very powerful commodity. Oh, don't forget to pay your water bill or will cut you off. :tup:

[Fiorenza]

Roy,

What you're proposing isn't economically feasible.

[Fiorenza]

Perdue responds to Riley (http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2007/10/25/perdueed_1026.html)

[niff]

There are three MAJOR resevoirs to the Northeast of Atlanta that total about 150,000 acres - Lake Hartwell, Lake Thurmond, and Lake Russell. All three are on the Savannah River and lie partly in Georgia and partly in S.C., yet the state of Georgia/metro Atlanta is not allowed to draw from these lakes. At least half of the watershed for the lakes is in Georgia...does anyone know why we can't use this plentiful supply of water?

One reason might be the legacy of riparian doctrine (water law) in the Eastern US, which generally forbid interbasin transfers (although that has been going on to a limited extent in Atlanta anyway). Georgia can’t really be considered under riparian doctrine anymore, but it might explain the reluctance or perhaps even the legal barriers to a statewide water network. I’m not sure that this is the reason, but it might contribute some.

This is in great contrast to the westerns states that operate under prior appropriate. Note the massive water transfers in California and Colorado. Denver has turned the Rocky Mountains into Swiss cheese, piping in vast quantities from the other side of the continental divide.

What really bugs me about this issue is the characterization of Georgia, and particularly Atlanta as water greedy. I don’t say this as a justification for wasteful habits, just in reaction to what I see as an intellectually dishonest characterization. Atlanta is probably unique, or among a very small number, of US cities that rely on water sources with watersheds that are almost entirely within their own metro areas. In other words, Atlanta has probably one of the highest levels of indigenous water use. The water that Atlanta uses is generally the same water that fell within the boundaries of its own metro area. Compare this with any other large city. New York pipes in water from all over the state, including inter-basin transfers from the Delaware River basin. Denver was already discussed. LA pipes in water from the Colorado River, a completely different watershed, spread over many other states. DC gets its water from the Potomac, whose watershed expands thousands of sq miles outside the metro area. If Atlanta was using water “originating” from other states or areas well beyond the boundaries of its metro area, such characterizations would be appropriate, but I find it disingenuous to claim people are greedy for wanting to use the very water that falls on their land.

Georgia does deserve criticism for failing to expand storage. This is a problem that has been well known for decades. However, in fairness to the government (I can’t believe I am cutting them slack), they may have faced legal challenges from both environmental groups and down stream users to build additional capacity. I’m not sure if that is the case, but I seem to remember hearing about opposition to some of the proposed reservoirs.

[SteveD]

:previous: Good points about the metro utilizing water within its own watershed, niff. I had never given that much thought, but, you're absolutely correct in that regard.

[Go7SD]

Roy,

What you're proposing isn't economically feasible.

why?

[RobMidtowner]

^The cost of pumping all that water from sea level up to Atlanta which is 1010' above sea level would make water much more expensive. :shrug:

[Fiorenza]

What may be economically feasible is to pump water from rivers in middle Georgia or from the Tennessee River.

[neilson]

What may be economically feasible is to pump water from rivers in middle Georgia or from the Tennessee River.
Oh no; 1st we get that Memphis-Huntsville-Atlanta Superhighway built and then we'll talk about piping in water parallel to the Superhighway from Lake Guntersville to the Coosa/Etowah River and therefore go to Lake Allatoona.

You'll have to talk to Alabama and TVA specifically about that. TVA likes its river water.

[Rail Claimore]

Oh no; 1st we get that Memphis-Huntsville-Atlanta Superhighway built and then we'll talk about piping in water parallel to the Superhighway from Lake Guntersville to the Coosa/Etowah River and therefore go to Lake Allatoona.

You'll have to talk to Alabama and TVA specifically about that. TVA likes its river water.

Agreed.

[Fiorenza]

I'm suggesting to take no more than 1% of the flow, just downriver from Chattanooga, and only when north Georgia is impacted by severe drought conditions. I guarantee you'd not even notice.

I hope you don't think Georgia's gain here would be Alabama's loss. What benefits one state benefits the other.

[neilson]

I'm suggesting to take no more than 1% of the flow, just downriver from Chattanooga, and only when north Georgia is impacted by severe drought conditions. I guarantee you'd not even notice.

I hope you don't think Georgia's gain here would be Alabama's loss. What benefits one state benefits the other.
I don't think Georgia's in any position to ask the State of Tennessee for anything, and that's where we get the Tennessee River's water from. From what I hear, there's not much love between Tennessee and Georgia(and I'm not just talking about what happened a couple weeks ago with the final score of the football game).

[Fiorenza]

I don't get this state rivalry thing. One hand washes the other, seems to me.

Of course, I'm not a college football fan either.

[Fiorenza]

But I agree we have to solve our water problems from within our own resources, and not depend on other states. The first thing we need to improve on is conservation.

We're not the only ones. Here's (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071026/D8SH34A04.html) an interesting article being featured by Drudge, that discusses the water problems being encountered in many areas of the country.

[Fiorenza]

Although they are TVA properties, Lakes Chatuge, Blue Ridge and Nottely lie completely within the boundaries of Georgia, and since Tennessee and Alabama are permitted to withdraw water for municipal purposes, presumably the same could happen for Georgia. All three lakes have summer pools lying several hundred feet above the Atlanta area, and Chatuge is especially interesting because it has the highest pool (1,926 ft summer pool) and also is kept at 93% of flood storage capacity during the summer. With that gradient, a gravity-feed aquaduct (with some tunnelling) could be built all the way to Atlanta! No need for pumps and electricity.

[Andrea]

Fiorenza, you are spot on as usual. All of America's great cities thrived because they found a way to access water. New York brought it down through the great tunnels from the Catskills. Los Angeles with Mulholland's great aqueducts. Chicago with its amazing Lake Michigan cribs.

We need an equally bold plan, or we’ll wither just as surely as the Bermuda on our .6 acre lawns.

[Fiorenza]

I hate to be crass about it, but if the Atlanta region makes up over 60% of the population of Georgia and a sizable percentage of the Southeast, there's not going to be a lot from a political point of view that can be done by Georgia if not Alabama and Tennessee, to keep Atlanta from getting water if indeed the faucets run dry. The longer you delay, the more you'll pay. People will relocate and live where they damn well please, the politicians count votes, and the time is gone when internal migration could be forced through punitive measures.

[Rail Claimore]

^Oh Atlanta will get its water somewhere, just not from TVA's jurisdiction. The amount it could even draw from the Tennessee River wouldn't make it economically feasible, even without legal barriers.

Water from the Savannah will happen first, through agreements with SC and new inter-basin water transfer policies.

[Fiorenza]

I'll concede the Tennessee River, but the TVA lakes lying totally within Georgia look good, assuming the engineering is feasible. The legal battle could be winnable because virtually no water is being withdrawn by Georgia from TVA properties.

[LoveAtlanta]

I count on God.

[Rail Claimore]

I'll concede the Tennessee River, but the TVA lakes lying totally within Georgia look good, assuming the engineering is feasible. The legal battle could be winnable because virtually no water is being withdrawn by Georgia from TVA properties.

That water under TVA's jurisdiction may be in Georgia, but the state of Georgia has no right to it. Only the communities that lie within TVA's watershed are entitled to that water, similar to the system that governs the Great Lakes. TVA is a quasi-state agency which even has the power to tax. It's nothing like the system the Chattahooche is currently governed by.

Heck, 3/4 of Alabama can't draw from the Tennessee River for the same reasons, even though TVA's three largest lakes (and 3 of the 5 largest man-made east of the Mississippi River, all three of which are twice the size of Lanier) basically form the River in the northern part of the state.

[coyotetrickster]

Fiorenza, you are spot on as usual. All of America's great cities thrived because they found a way to access water. New York brought it down through the great tunnels from the Catskills. Los Angeles with Mulholland's great aqueducts. Chicago with its amazing Lake Michigan cribs.

We need an equally bold plan, or we’ll wither just as surely as the Bermuda on our .6 acre lawns.

Mulholland stole our water, thank you. If you want to call theft a way of accessing water, fine. but LA exists thanks to the wholesale thievery of Northern California's water resources. And, the leases are coming due and many will not be resigned....

[neilson]

Mulholland stole our water, thank you. If you want to call theft a way of accessing water, fine. but LA exists thanks to the wholesale thievery of Northern California's water resources. And, the leases are coming due and many will not be resigned....
So, you're saying prohibitively expensive DeSal plants will have to compensate for the water resources that will no longer be utilized due to contracts expiring?

[Fiorenza]

Obviously, LA and Atlanta will get water from some distance from lakes in their same political jurisdictions (CA, GA) considered by jealous NIMBYs as sacrosanct. The courts will not look favorably to depriving large numbers of people the ability to maintain public health standards.

As for TVA, they'd better be careful who they take on. If it were up to me, TVA would have been abolished after the depression. Right now they really don't have many friends in Congress. They don't need to have the Georgia congressional delegation start voting against their appropriation.

[neilson]

Obviously, LA and Atlanta will get water from some distance from lakes in their same political jurisdictions (CA, GA) considered by jealous NIMBYs as sacrosanct. The courts will not look favorably to depriving large numbers of people the ability to maintain public health standards.

As for TVA, they'd better be careful who they take on. If it were up to me, TVA would have been abolished after the depression. Right now they really don't have many friends in Congress. They don't need to have the Georgia congressional delegation start voting against their appropriation.
Alabama and Tennessee Congressional Delegations + Kentucky Congressional Delegation > Georgia Congressional Delegation.

[Fiorenza]

We'll see. Why should the TVA territory get continued special treatment from the feds? That sort of pork is exactly why this country is going broke. They'll probably have to sell off TVA to the Chinese to pay the debts. Anyway, legal issues around water rights will most likely end up in the courts, not congress, and I'm fine with that. Let's go for it and see who wins.

[neilson]

We'll see. Why should the TVA territory get continued special treatment from the feds? That sort of pork is exactly why this country is going broke. They'll probably have to sell off TVA to the Chinese to pay the debts. Anyway, legal issues around water rights will most likely end up in the courts, not congress, and I'm fine with that. Let's go for it and see who wins.
I'm justs saying, the TVA regions are better off for not having the Southern Companies, the Duke Energies, the Progress Energies, and the like try and operate our power.

Continue the status quo within the TVA regions and let the Local Municipalities continue to buy power from TVA and supply it to their local populations. Don't go corporate on us, I don't want Southern Company's problems and successes to be tied to us.

[Fiorenza]

MONTGOMERY, Ala. -- Federal officials met privately Friday with the governors of drought-stricken Alabama and Georgia and announced plans for an interagency team to tackle a long-standing water rights dispute involving those two states and Florida.

James Connaughton, chairman of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, said the high-level federal panel will have the "straightforward goal of acting with urgency to prevent an emergency."

Connaughton said the specifics of the plan could be in place soon after a meeting Thursday in Washington with Alabama Gov. Bob Riley, Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue and those states' congressional delegations.

[Fiorenza]

ATLANTA — U.S. Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne met privately Friday with the governors of Georgia and Alabama on their struggle over water shortages in a prolonged drought, but withheld details on their talks until a tri-state meeting on the issue next week.

Kempthorne said he believes Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue and Alabama Gov. Bob Riley can work through the nearly two- decade-old dispute over how much water Georgia’s reservoirs must share with Alabama and Florida.

“I think this is as frank a discussion as we’ve ever had,” Riley said following the afternoon meeting in Montgomery

The interior secretary declined to discuss details before a meeting Thursday in Washington, D.C., with the Georgia and Alabama governors, along with Florida Gov. Charlie Crist and congressional delegations from the three states.

“Out of respect for the way these negotiations are going, we’re not going to be very specific,” Perdue said after a meeting earlier Friday in Atlanta. “Things are in the works.”

Seeking an agreement

Kempthorne said his Friday meeting with Perdue had “the right atmosphere and the right tone.” He stressed that the states need to reach an agreement and keep the federal courts out of it.

James Connaughton, chairman of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, said in Montgomery that a high level federal inter-agency team is being formed with a “straightforward goal of acting with urgency to prevent an emergency.”

He also stressed that any solution to the crisis would have to include interim steps to address the immediate water shortage problems as well as long-term solutions to keep them from resurfacing.

Connaughton said they hope to have specifics of a plan after the meeting in Washington. That meeting, he said, would be followed by several weeks of data development. He said it wasn’t possible at this point to give a timeline for any concrete actions.

Kempthorne, Connaughton and Perdue were joined by U.S. Sens. Saxby Chambliss and Johnny Isakson — both Georgia Republicans — and representatives from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Alabama U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions joined the Montgomery meeting.

Riley had called Thursday for a truce between Alabama, Georgia and Florida, all of which are locked in a decades-long fight over federal reservoirs. The drought — which government forecasters reported could soon get worse — has intensified the jockeying.

Caught in the middle is the Corps of Engineers, which says it is complying with federal guidelines by sending millions of gallons of water from Georgia downstream to Florida and Alabama to supply power plants and protect federally threatened mussel species.

Almost a third of the Southeast is covered by an exceptional drought, the worst category, according to the National Drought Mitigation Center. The burgeoning Atlanta area, with a population of 5 million, is in the middle of the affected region.

Georgia lawmakers announced plans Thursday for a network of state reservoirs, while the governors of Alabama and Florida warned that Georgia’s consumption threatens their downstream states.

The Georgia plan would involve building at least four new reservoirs and expanding existing ones. Lawmakers did not say how much state funding would go toward bolstering the state’s water supply.

Perdue has ordered state agencies and public utilities to reduce usage, and authorities have banned outdoor watering in most of the state.

Georgia also sued the Corps last week, demanding it send less water downstream. That brought objections from the governors of Alabama and Florida.

“Georgians are willing to do their share in understanding and sharing as good neighbors, but we respectfully ask the same of our neighbors,” Perdue said.

[atl2phx]

Alabama and Tennessee Congressional Delegations + Kentucky Congressional Delegation > Georgia Congressional Delegation.

i was unaware that three states controlled the destiny of the TVA, and i don't think they do. the combined delegation of 47 states > alabama, tennessee and kentucky.

it's pretty clear that issues related to natural resource allocation (such as water) are becoming national in scope and will be resolved as part of a national agenda.

[Go7SD]

But I agree we have to solve our water problems from within our own resources, and not depend on other states. The first thing we need to improve on is conservation.

We're not the only ones. Here's (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071026/D8SH34A04.html) an interesting article being featured by Drudge, that discusses the water problems being encountered in many areas of the country.

Georgia must develop something sometime in the future. There is no way the other states are just going to sacrifice their own resources for Georgia's water problem. I know Atlanta is at a higher elevation but it would be much more costly if the drought problem effects the metro area economically long term that could run in the millions. Yes, it would be expensive to pump the water up to Atlanta but it is a better long term solution for years to come. The drought may get worse but instead of Georgia wining and pissing off it's neighbors it needs to do something for itself. There are other projects around the world that are far more expensive than what I proposed. Florida, Alabama, Tenn etc. are going to look out for themselves first not Georgia. NC is already looking at a possible desal plant project off it's coast due to water problems.

[Rail Claimore]

We'll see. Why should the TVA territory get continued special treatment from the feds? That sort of pork is exactly why this country is going broke. They'll probably have to sell off TVA to the Chinese to pay the debts. Anyway, legal issues around water rights will most likely end up in the courts, not congress, and I'm fine with that. Let's go for it and see who wins.

The "public" reason for TVA's creation was to spur economic development in what was then the poorest part of the country. Of course, anyone high up in DC knows the real reason TVA was created and continues to exist. Look no further than what goes on close to Huntsville and Knoxville regarding the DoD and all those other big government departments. If it weren't for them, TVA would have been privatized and sold off decades ago.

[Fiorenza]

Government agencies being tax-subsidized to support other government agencies? I love it. "What goes on close to Huntsville and Knoxville regarding the DoD and all those big government departments" is not very relevant anymore.

[neilson]

Government agencies being tax-subsidized to support other government agencies? I love it. "What goes on close to Huntsville and Knoxville regarding the DoD and all those big government departments" is not very relevant anymore.
If there's 3 things that are more relevant to us as a nation then anything else today, it's Missile Defense and NASA development(Redstone Arsenal near Huntsville) and the sort of development that continues to come out of Oak Ridge, outside of Knoxville.

Oh, and here's something else. The vast majority of employees at all 3 areas are actually subcontractors that work for the countless companies that are brought in by the Gov't to do the job for cheaper and more efficiently.

You can contract employees and companies to do the work of the gov't, but you can't contract say, Southern Company, to come in and do the work of TVA. We see Alabama Power and their higher rates and the like, that's not what we want if contracting out the rights to our power operations to a private entity. That would also take the local utility companies that buy from TVA in order to supply us(the end user) out of the picture, and those local utilities are vital since they give a "local" face to the needs of the people.

[Fiorenza]

That's a twisted justification for a government subsidy that no body else receives.

[atl2phx]

If there's 3 things that are more relevant to us as a nation then anything else today, it's Missile Defense and NASA development(Redstone Arsenal near Huntsville) and the sort of development that continues to come out of Oak Ridge, outside of Knoxville.

Oh, and here's something else. The vast majority of employees at all 3 areas are actually subcontractors that work for the countless companies that are brought in by the Gov't to do the job for cheaper and more efficiently.

You can contract employees and companies to do the work of the gov't, but you can't contract say, Southern Company, to come in and do the work of TVA. We see Alabama Power and their higher rates and the like, that's not what we want if contracting out the rights to our power operations to a private entity. That would also take the local utility companies that buy from TVA in order to supply us(the end user) out of the picture, and those local utilities are vital since they give a "local" face to the needs of the people.

weak.

[neilson]

weak.

TVA is not the only one that gets special rights. I point you to Arizona and SRP. You guys with Southern Company and the like are just like the ppl in AZ that have APS and think SRP has an "unfair" advantage.

[atl2phx]

TVA is not the only one that gets special rights. I point you to Arizona and SRP. You guys with Southern Company and the like are just like the ppl in AZ that have APS and think SRP has an "unfair" advantage.

to your point, phoenix and much of arizona get a decent amount of water (if i recall, 30-35%) from sources that originate outside of the state. compare that to atlanta, which gets virtually all of its water from within georgia state lines.