[deasine]

Metro Vancouver Transit

Welcome to the Metro Vancouver Thread at SCP. Here you will find information regarding on the transit updates in Vancouver that do not belong in other specific threads. Latest updates will be posted here.

[agrant]

I saw it. Ha! I knew there was something wrong with the honour system here. The losses are in the millions each year apparently - due most to people not paying fines.

[squeezied]

if i remember correctly, its a loss of 6mill each year

[mr.x2]

omg...i never realized there were that many fines handed out each year - and i was extremely surprised at how just a tiny fraction of those that were fined actually payed their fine.

regardless of operational and capital costs, i'm all for fare gates.


GlobalBC data:

2006
- 30,300 fines issued
- 2,600 paid
- 400 partially paid
- 24,600 not paid


2007 (as of this month)
- 1,800 paid
- 100 partially paid
- 12,100 not paid
- at $150 a fine, that means $5.5 million is not going to Translink



But when will it be done? They say "in a few months", so i'm assuming that means it'll be announced in the next few months...hopefully, done by 2010.

[djh]

Wasn't it just a few months ago that everybody here was arguing that the honour system was so great and that very few people would jump the system? Didn't some nutbar argue that we should give free transit rides to the homeless so that they wouldn't feel the need to do B&Es to get the ticket fare?

And now, all of a sudden, everybody's saying we need gates? Plus, yet again, a bunch of bureaucrats are flying half-way around the world to see how something common sense works?

Like I've said all along, we need gates on Transit, or else people will inevitably scam the system. Now you have statistics to prove what is common sense, so hey, I guess what I said all along must be true now?

[mr.x2]

Wasn't it just a few months ago that everybody here was arguing that the honour system was so great and that very few people would jump the system? Didn't some nutbar argue that we should give free transit rides to the homeless so that they wouldn't feel the need to do B&Es to get the ticket fare?

And now, all of a sudden, everybody's saying we need gates? Plus, yet again, a bunch of bureaucrats are flying half-way around the world to see how something common sense works?

Like I've said all along, we need gates on Transit, or else people will inevitably scam the system. Now you have statistics to prove what is common sense, so hey, I guess what I said all along must be true now?

The thing is I don't think anyone knew the statistics, especially the statistic of people who didn't pay their fines! We all knew about the cost to the system of those who didn't pay their fares. I would've thought that there is already some sort of fine to not paying your fine - like having the police knock on your door, going to jail, etc. I also didn't think fake names was such an issue, that the transit officers had a palm pilot or something to check on the name of the fare evader.

Our opinions were based on a Translink study that found there was not enough fare evasion to make fare gates worthwhile - that the operational cost of fare gates was greater than the cost of fare evasion.

[squeezied]

omg...i never realized there were that many fines handed out each year - and i was extremely surprised at how just a tiny fraction of those that were fined actually payed their fine.

regardless of operational and capital costs, i'm all for fare gates.


GlobalBC data:

2006
- 30,300 fines issued
- 2,600 paid
- 400 partially paid
- 24,600 not paid


2007 (as of this month)
- 1,800 paid
- 100 partially paid
- 12,100 not paid
- at $150 a fine, that means $5.5 million is not going to Translink



But when will it be done? They say "in a few months", so i'm assuming that means it'll be announced in the next few months...hopefully, done by 2010.

wait, so that's the sum from ppl not paying their fines? imagine the amount from those who evade and are not caught!

[mr.x2]

^ those are the sums of people fined and the sum of those were were fined and did not pay their fine.

the fact is, fines don't work unless they are enforced. i.e. would you pay a commercial fine to Impark because "you parked your car in their lot and walked off the property"?

[en2]

looks like we dont' have a thread... or at least I didn't see one. Mr. X made one for SSC so why not have one for SCP:

Anyway, Global TV has had a report on the number of SkyTrain cheats using our SkyTrain system. Minister of Transportation, Kevin Falcon, will be going to Britain to look at their transportation system and to take their good elements and put it in our SkyTrain system, specifically their system of cracking down fare evaders and their smart card, Oyster.

According to the Global report, our SkyTrain system will see:
*New Gated Entrances for SkyTrain system (not sure if it is turnstile)
*Modeled on "Oyster Card" (I still question why not Octopus Card, it's much more sucessful)
*Private company to build the facilities (I'm guessing building the expansion of SkyTrain stations because most stations don't have room for a gate.., such as 29th Avenue...)
*New system carckdown on fare evaders

I highly advise all of u to watch it on globaltvbc.com: SkyTrain ticket cheats.

Before the Canada Line was built, didn't a whole bunch of government officals go to London to "observe" their system.....

And then we ended up building a line with 50m platforms and no gated entrances for the stations...

[mr.x2]

Before the Canada Line was built, didn't a whole bunch of government officals go to London to "observe" their system.....

And then we ended up building a line with 50m platforms and no gated entrances for the stations...

Yea, but the end product was a funding issue.


Richmond officials visited a bunch of speed skating ovals before designing their own.

[deasine]

Before the Canada Line was built, didn't a whole bunch of government officals go to London to "observe" their system.....

And then we ended up building a line with 50m platforms and no gated entrances for the stations...

Well at least the Canada Line stations are built to include fare gates unlike the Expo Line =.="

But yes 50 m will be a problem... hopefully there will be a solution to this and let's not begin the debate of whether platforms are long enough XD XD XD

[cornholio]

Wasn't it just a few months ago that everybody here was arguing that the honour system was so great and that very few people would jump the system? Didn't some nutbar argue that we should give free transit rides to the homeless so that they wouldn't feel the need to do B&Es to get the ticket fare?

And now, all of a sudden, everybody's saying we need gates? Plus, yet again, a bunch of bureaucrats are flying half-way around the world to see how something common sense works?

Like I've said all along, we need gates on Transit, or else people will inevitably scam the system. Now you have statistics to prove what is common sense, so hey, I guess what I said all along must be true now?

That nutbar was me and I stick to my point. Turnstiles are a waste of money because the same result can be accomplished with the stroke of a pen, and not only the same result but a better result. Kind of like building toll booths to reduce overall car use are a waste of money since the same result and even a better result can be achieved simply through raising gas prices.

I wish more people were into sociology, psychology and economics. These are some of the most underrated fields in our society and a person with these skills would be a 100 times more valuable then some engineer or architect, unfortunately people are designed to recognize physical solutions to problems such as arresting people, building walls, blowing things up etc. And common sense, ha, don't even go there as the common sense is as much of a draw back to humanity as it is a benefit. See common sense is not necessarily based on facts but rather the belief that the common person believes that. Now I don't want to get in to a big discussion about this but im sure you see the problem with common sense. Anyways il cut this of know because im to tired to think.

[cornholio]

^ those are the sums of people fined and the sum of those were were fined and did not pay their fine.

the fact is, fines don't work unless they are enforced. i.e. would you pay a commercial fine to Impark because "you parked your car in their lot and walked off the property"?

They are enforced and if you have a fine then you cant get a drivers license among other things. These numbers don't show two things,

A) a majority of these fines are held by very few. In other words out of all the people who have fines the top few percent hold the majority of the unpaid fines. These people don't pay, will never pay, and cant pay.
B) a majority of these fines that have been paid are paid by people who by paying these fines have payed more towards transit then they would have have they not gotten the fine.
C)So for 2007 this month the fines collected, $311,000 while all the fines given out represented $30,000 worth of unpaid trips. So if they catch 10% of all the fares evaded then they are actually profiting. If not then they just need to tweak with the fine amount, patrols, and enforcement of fine collection until they balance their numbers.
D)I feel like explaining this is a lost cause:hell:

[tintinium]

not a lost cause. Actually, I find it interesting. I don't know if or how it would work politically, but I do find it interesting.

[deasine]

I think we are getting a little ahed of ourselves. I clearly stated that they are implementing a form of gates and not turnstiles (or not just yet). Either way, the current system we have is not fit for smart card users. If we impement the smart card system and continue to have the proof-of-payment system, it's going to be a little hard to enforce. Let's say I have a smart card and just walk on the SkyTrain. If a transit police or SkyTrain attendant asks me for my fare, I'll show him/her my Smart card. Then I will be fine without actually paying. Then there are two different solutions to this:

1) "Gate" system with attendants monitoring this so that smart card users are forced to scan their cards. Then smart card users are forced to scan their cards before entering the fare boundary. This works for paper fare users as well. The same can be said for turnstiles.
2) Keep the same system with MORE SkyTrain attendants, MORE Transit police and have them at all stations at all times to check fares. And have them carry a mini device that can scan Smart cards to see if one has scaned their card before the station.

I would love to keep the proof-of-payment system if we didn't have so many fare evaders.

[mr.x2]

TransLink funding formula short of funds, critics say
Revenue stops pumping if drivers stop pumping gas

Frank Luba, The Province
Published: Friday, October 26, 2007

A new plan to change the way TransLink operates leaves the regional transportation authority short of money, critics charge.

Eric Doherty of the Society Promoting Environmental Conservation says Bill 43, which was introduced in the legislature Tuesday and was debated again yesterday, keeps TransLink dependent on gas taxes -- along with transit fares and property tax.

"The funding formula for the new TransLink basically makes it impossible to reach the transit target that [Premier] Gordon Campbell has said they need to reach," says Doherty of the goal of having 25 per cent of all trips in the region taken by transit.

Only about 11 to 12 per cent of all trips in the region are currently made by transit and fares only cover 50 per cent of transit's operating cost.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon has said the new model guarantees stable planning and funding.

Meanwhile, B.C. Federation of Labour president Jim Sinclair disagrees with the replacement of TransLink's current 12-member board of municipal politicians with nine industry professionals.

"It's been apparent through the past year that Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon's ultimate goal is to take local input and control out of transportation and install a hand-picked board that will enact a Liberal agenda with no questions asked," Sinclair said yesterday.

The new nine-member board will be selected from a shortlist of 15 candidates provided to mayors in the region by a screening panel.

Doherty is also concerned that the new legislation makes only TransLink's annual general meeting open to the public.

"I'm concerned that TransLink will be basically inaccessible to the public," he says.

fluba@png.canwest.com

[en2]

That nutbar was me and I stick to my point. Turnstiles are a waste of money because the same result can be accomplished with the stroke of a pen, and not only the same result but a better result. Kind of like building toll booths to reduce overall car use are a waste of money since the same result and even a better result can be achieved simply through raising gas prices.

Fare gates do add a perception of safety and if all stations were manned like in so many other proper Metro systems in the world, SkyTrain's reputation as a crime magnet would almost certainly decrease. Plus you could actually get accurate numbers on ridership.

Even in Japan, which is the safest country in the world, all systems have fare gates in them.

[officedweller]

Remember that Translink doesn't get the money collected for fines - under the provincial legislation, the money goes to the Province as general revenue - NOT to Translink. So Translink has no incentive to spend money to collect the fines.
Remember that almost all light rail systems are proof of purchase/fare paid zones. That includes Docklands Light Railway and Portland MAX. Even the Red Line Subway in Los Angeles is proof of purchase.

[Holden West]

Translink executives rack up $154,000 in car expenses

Last Updated: Thursday, November 1, 2007 | 11:20 AM ET

CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/credit.html)

Executives of Greater Vancouver's transportation authority spent more than $154,000 on car expenses in 2006, according to documents obtained by CBC News under the Freedom of Information Act.
The documents break down car-related expenses into five categories:
Gas usage.
Car insurance.
Car repair and maintenance.
Car allowance.
Car lease.There are 14 members on Translink's executive team, including CEO Patricia Jacobson, who racked up the biggest bill.
Jacobson spent $2,345 on gas, $1,872 on insurance, $1,570 on repair maintenance as well as $8,354 on the lease for her Subaru Outback — for a grand total of $14,142.
Chief officer Robert Kind ranked second, spending $13,491 in total. He used $3,105 on gas and $2,072 on car insurance.
Director of communications Ken Hardie ran up the third-highest bill. Hardie doesn't lease; instead he receives a car allowance of $6,600. Including gas, repairs and insurance, he spent $13,432 keeping his 1997 Chrysler Cirrus on the road.
Jacobson isn't making any apologies for the fact that the publically-funded Translink subsidizes car use by its executives.

She told CBC News on Wednesday it's a taxable benefit on par with what any other organization or corporation might offer and that the executives need their cars.
"We're a regional transportation authority," she said. "The executives are travelling all over the region through 22 different municipalities. They use both transit and vehicles.
"It's a claimable deductions so it isn't all of their expenses, but they need to have the mobility of having both transit and car driving," she said.
Jacobson said the unfortunate reality is that people can't get everywhere they need to go in the Lower Mainland by transit.

[deasine]

I have no comments........ maybe TransLink executives should start switching to hybrid cars...

[officedweller]

That would be politically more acceptable.
Remember that translink also operates roads and bridges too - so the use of cars and road transportation is within it's mandate.

[mr.x2]

New TransLink board seen as 'erosion of democracy'
Power to raise property taxes

Frank Luba, The Province
Published: Thursday, November 01, 2007

Democracy will be the loser when the province changes how TransLink is run, according to Simon Fraser University political science professor Patrick Smith.

Legislative debate on Bill 43, which turns the Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority into the South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority, resumes next week.

Smith objects to the "erosion of local democracy" represented by the proposed nine-member board of industry professionals that will run TransLink.

Like the current board of elected municipal politicians, the new appointed board will be able to raise property taxes, change taxation classifications, accumulate property and run its own police force.

A council of regional mayors will meet quarterly but will only vote on supplements to the base plan proposed by the new board, which is supposed to take office Jan 1.

"You're creating this significant regional agency which will have significant decision-

making powers and removing it from local accountability," Smith said yesterday.

"It fails the democracy test," he said. "It's designed to have [Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon's] agenda move forward with the fewest hiccups."

Municipal legal expert Jonathan Baker is also critical.

"I think it fails the administrative test," said Baker, a lawyer and former Vancouver city councillor. "It seems outrageous that you have an appointed body doing that sort of thing.

"It seems to me the public should have the right to vote out of power someone that levies a property tax if they don't like it. Didn't someone once say that taxation without representation is tyranny?"

But the government believes the new structure is better.

"I would argue better accountability because every single mayor is involved now," said Falcon. "Every single mayor will have the opportunity to participate in the construction of the alternate 10-year plan, the strategic plan.

"They will be the ones to vote on whether to accept the alternative plan or just continue operating on the base plan they have in place today.

"Under the new model, any new tax measures will have to be authorized and approved by the mayors' council and that's all of the mayors represented on that council."

In addition to the mayors' council, there will also be an independent transit commissioner to investigate TransLink's plans and fare increases.

fluba@png.canwest.com

[officedweller]

It is a good point that the Mayor's Council is ALL of the mayors. Currently, the GVTA Board has a number of rotating board members from groups of municipalities (i.e. tri-cities) - so some muncipalities are currently excluded from votes.

[nname]

Group of teenage girls swarm female transit bus driver

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - Vancouver Police are investigating a disturbing swarming attack on a transit bus driver last night in East Vancouver. Police say it happened after the woman driver stopped at Commerical Drive and Napier around 10:30 pm.

Police say when she offered Halloween candy to a group of teenage girls, they dragged her out of the bus and beat her up, with 2 teenage girls wearing Santa Suits doing most of the assaulting. The VPD says it was unprovoked, with no evidence the bus driver did anything to trigger the assault. The driver was traumatized but police report no serious injuries.

Drew Snider with TransLink says the incident brings up the ongoing issue of driver safety. "We have been taking measures with the union and other experts to improve that. One of the things we're doing is bringing in a new radio transmission system, which will allow drivers to communicate immediately if there's a threat to their safety."

That's not the end of the story. Later, TransLink got a call from the Vancouver Fire Department saying the bus was set on fire.

http://rogersradiointernet.com/BC/CKWX/images/2007/swarmed%20bus1.jpg

[deasine]

oh my god.... see these people should get caught, and then punished to replace the entire bus AND stay in jail for at least 5 years

[WarrenC12]

They need a beating of their own.

That isn't what I'd call a quiet area, hopefully somebody saw something. Bus drivers should at least get the same safety precautions that taxi drivers get, starting with a camera on the bus.

[mr.x2]

oh my god.... see these people should get caught, and then punished to replace the entire bus AND stay in jail for at least 5 years

she was giving them candy! wtf is wrong with these people, she was being nice. i feel so sorry for the driver....worst, it only makes a stronger case for why drivers need their own "cage" in the bus.

[nname]

oh my god.... see these people should get caught, and then punished to replace the entire bus AND stay in jail for at least 5 years
They really should.. the bus is almost brand new too (it was one of the new trolley)... what a waste of public money..

[deasine]

TransLink is very pissed off... And I am pissed off too... I feel verry sorry for the bus driver...

the chinese proverb "Good hearts get thundered" shizit i dont know how to translate it: those who know chinglish can do so for me: "hao sum bay lui peck"

Update:
http://www.canada.com/globaltv/bc/index.html
Highly advise you to watch the report and see the damage of the bus. This is just pisisng me off. What is wrong with Vancouver lately? All the news has been so negative now... Right now, "no news is good news"

[mr.x2]

^ wow, the bus is really damaged....not just the driver's seat in the pictures, it's the entire interior that's burnt. it was so bad that they had difficulties on towing it. there is a possibility it might have to be scrapped.

[The_Henry_Man]

TransLink is very pissed off... And I am pissed off too... I feel verry sorry for the bus driver...

the chinese proverb "Good hearts get thundered" shizit i dont know how to translate it: those who know chinglish can do so for me: "hao sum bay lui peck"

Update:
http://www.canada.com/globaltv/bc/index.html
Highly advise you to watch the report and see the damage of the bus. This is just pisisng me off. What is wrong with Vancouver lately? All the news has been so negative now... Right now, "no news is good news"


Yeah, your translation is pretty much dead on.

This country not only needs better surveillance, but from the top: Eliminate liberal-activist judges and laws and replace these with those that can really punish the bandits that attacked the bus on Halloween. We are so used to the so-called "human rights" notion that more and more of these common criminals gets more rights than us. These teenage bandits should receive the same treatment as they did to the bus driver: Be flogged.

Liberal-mindedness is the cause of all this mess in our society.

[tintinium]

Fare gates do add a perception of safety and if all stations were manned like in so many other proper Metro systems in the world, SkyTrain's reputation as a crime magnet would almost certainly decrease. Plus you could actually get accurate numbers on ridership.

Even in Japan, which is the safest country in the world, all systems have fare gates in them.

Japan is a very rule based society. Its train system is very unified too. The same system is used on the subways, National Rail etc. in all cities.

[clooless]

she was giving them candy! wtf is wrong with these people, she was being nice. i feel so sorry for the driver....worst, it only makes a stronger case for why drivers need their own "cage" in the bus.

I disagree, Just as building the Great Wall and the Berlin Wall didn't work, neither is placing the driver in a metal cage going to accomplish much. Not only does it destroy the relationship the driver has with his passengers, but it is a sad statement on society.

Rather, we need to deal with those that assault drivers with real justice, not healing circles and conferences, but jail and fines. Restitution for vandalism, theft and other crimes should be automatic and not something that can be bargained away during sentencing.

[mr.x2]

I disagree, Just as building the Great Wall and the Berlin Wall didn't work, neither is placing the driver in a metal cage going to accomplish much. Not only does it destroy the relationship the driver has with his passengers, but it is a sad statement on society.

Rather, we need to deal with those that assault drivers with real justice, not healing circles and conferences, but jail and fines. Restitution for vandalism, theft and other crimes should be automatic and not something that can be bargained away during sentencing.

i completely agree, i never agreed with the bus cage idea but this incident might just make it a lot more likely....note, there are 4 attacks on bus drivers every week.

those who are caugh vandalizing a bus or any transit property should be slapped on with a $2,000 fine and 3 months community service of removing graffitti around the city.

[lightrail]

I must admit, for a city that doesn't get a real winter, it's good to see that Translink is prepared.

Some trolley buses are equiped with special overhead shoes to cut through ice that builds up overnight - these are the first to go out in the morning and clear the lines.

During snowy weather, certain skytrain cars are run throughout the night keeping the tracks clear and keeping buildup off the pressure plates in stations (that warn of intruders). Usually less trains operate in heavy snow conditions and each as a crew person on-board to deal with issue that the automatic equipment can't, but the trains are longer to try to maintain capacity.

And BTW - did everybody know that Skytrain is really a four-rail system (two stacked power rails, one at +300v DC and the other at -300V DC). Too cool.

[lightrail]

^ wow, the bus is really damaged....not just the driver's seat in the pictures, it's the entire interior that's burnt. it was so bad that they had difficulties on towing it. there is a possibility it might have to be scrapped.

The stupidity of some people - they'll be the first to complain when their bus doesn't show up because the run was cancelled due to shortage of equipment.

"Mom - my bus didn't show up"
"That's because you torched it last night dear"

[SpongeG]

it was girls who beat her too wasn't it?

what is it with this generation of girls?

[djh]

I dunno. Some people here are suggesting that we should basically *wait* (vulnerably) for people to commit crimes and *then* punish them - i.e., a reactive-based action. As opposed to being proactive and preventing a crime from being able to happen (e.g., building the cages on buses). I understand the *theory*, but as so much intellectual opinion crafted in lofty heights, it has little basis in reality. Crimes happen. One can't wait for one to happen and then hope you'll not only catch the criminal but get a favourable conviction, win an appeal, and get a fair punishment. That implies a whole long chain of events will come into alignment perfectly leading to a just resolution of the circumstance. In reality that just does not happen! Just open the newspaper any day! Yes, as somebody said, it is a sad statement on society, but mate, that's the society we live in, and it's not going to change just because we *think* hard enough about nice theories on how to interact with bus passengers!

The best solution in this imperfect world, as others have suggested, is to build a cage to protect the drivers.

OK, in more practical terms: Next time you get on an aeroplane, how would you feel if there was no barrier between the pilot and the passengers? Don't you feel more secure knowing the pilot is basically behind a "cage"? That's the society we live in, it's not changing because we say "oh we *should* have better interaction between the pilot and the passengers!" - Same goes for the bus. It's a "nice to have", but in the real world, because of a certain number of unruly punks, we can't have it.

[jlousa]

^^^Wow^^^

Should we build a wall around the DTES cause we know alot of those people leave the area to commit crimes to pay for their addication. Using that logic it seems like we should.:koko:

I remember when as a child my parents were able to take me up to see the pilot fly the plane, I would love to be able to do the same. Do you really think those doors are going to stop a highjacking? They haven't. All that's happened is we've become more impersonal.

The issue here is with unsuitable punishments, hopefully we get a Conversative majority and shut up the bleeding heart liberals. *rant over*

[djh]

My brother drives buses in London. He's seen all sorts. People throw acid at drivers. People stab drivers. People refuse to pay and if you talk back to them they will try to fight you.

They introduced cages there some time back. It's probably saved his life.

No amount of "we should" is going to change the fact that some people are just thugs. The bus driver should not have to play a lottery with their life because of them.

[nname]

I don't think putting up a cage would help in this particular incident...

[squeezied]

bottom line: those girls need to be punished dearly and severly.

the justice system is way to liberal these days. paris, nicole, lindsay, and other obvious girls come to mind. think of the precedence it sets!!

[Canadian Mind]

Give the bus drivers guns, and the ability to use them when neccisary. Don't need a cage.

[djh]

bottom line: those girls need to be punished dearly and severly.

the justice system is way to liberal these days. paris, nicole, lindsay, and other obvious girls come to mind. think of the precedence it sets!!

Aren't your 2 statements both exactly what my point was? Yes, the girls need to be punished, BUT yes, the justice system is ineffective. So like I said, for us to say "what needs to happen is..." really doesn't change things: the justice system *is* too liberal!

Hence, the solution, since the justice system is unlikely to suddenly wake up and change, is to *protect the drivers*

And *that's* the bottom line.

[fever]

I don't know too much about the cage. It seems a little extreme.

I doubt anyone who would assault a bus driver would be thinking about sentencing. Most of these people have problems that should have them inside an institution..

[mr.x2]

not only that, but they're aboriginal...they don't pay any taxes, and yet they vandalize something they haven't even partially payed for.

[deasine]

Now let's look at some less depressing news:

City of North Vancouver is holding a Transportation Plan Open House on November 8, 2007 at 5:00 - 8:00 PM.

Issues that need to be solved include better transit routes from North Vancouver to Burnaby and East Vancouver, lack of transit serving communities, etc.

Presentation Boards
http://www.cnv.org/c//data/3/426/2007%2010%2029%20-%202007%20Open%20House%20Display%20Boards.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

City of Vancouver will also be asking the public for their input on M-Line extension. TransLink seems to be very interested in extending this route now, many spokespersons are speaking about this issue. Two options of the M-Line include:

1) M-Line along 10th Avenue
2) M-Line along Broadway

A) Elevated
B) Underground

[SFUVancouver]

When and where will the CoV be asking for citizen input on these M-Line options? Surely not at the North Van event?

[nname]

When and where will the CoV be asking for citizen input on these M-Line options? Surely not at the North Van event?
here (http://www.mayorsamsullivan.ca/)?

[deasine]

Sorry I forgot to put the link =P I think the website is by Sam Sullivan himself and not the city's. It's there to satisfy his own curiosity of how much people support this. Again, looks like Sullivan is taking a problem to his own hands...

[j4893k]

Personally, I'm fine with the most cost effective route. I guess this would end up being a 10th ave bore/cut-and-cover option? I don't think residents would ever allow an elevated line into Point Grey, plus the grade is quite steep after Alma. What are everyone elses opinions?

[tintinium]

cut n' cover on tenth. NO question.

elevated after arbutus with the option for area residents to pay for the line to be buried using their taxes.

[officedweller]

I agree - cut and cover along 10th Ave. - the cut and cover along the residential areas of Cambie went off smoothly and 10th Ave, is not a major corridor.
No businesses to be disrupted on 10th Ave. until you get up the hill to UBC past Alma and that'll be many years away in a final phase. i.e. it's a separate construction project unrelated to the inital phases.

[cornholio]

At Alma I would elevate it and cut it up to 4th and on to UBC. I would then pressure the feds to give up their massive chunk of land for cheap and move their operations elsewhere. Then I would redevelop that in to a 20,000+ people community like the Fraser mills site but bigger because it would be planed along rapid transit. The skytrain line I would then ram down the throughts of the very few residents past jericho st(?) and then run it elevated along the golf course to UBC. The section of the golf course can be designed to blend in to the park so it can have living walls etc. installed on all the exposed concrete and the guideway can be covered in a tube to minimize noise.

By the way this got me thinking about costs, challenges etc. of installing a living surface on some of the current skytrain guide ways? It would make them look amazing and fit in to their surroundings much better, not to mention reduce noise pollution and reduce their environmental impact.

[nname]

At Alma I would elevate it and cut it up to 4th and on to UBC. I would then pressure the feds to give up their massive chunk of land for cheap and move their operations elsewhere. Then I would redevelop that in to a 20,000+ people community like the Fraser mills site but bigger because it would be planed along rapid transit. The skytrain line I would then ram down the throughts of the very few residents past jericho st(?) and then run it elevated along the golf course to UBC. The section of the golf course can be designed to blend in to the park so it can have living walls etc. installed on all the exposed concrete and the guideway can be covered in a tube to minimize noise.
I'm wondering... wouldn't it be better and cheaper to run it at-grade past Blanca?

[LeftCoaster]

I was wondering, while running it along 10th would the stations entrances be on 10th? becuase that would make little sense. I would hope if it were cut and cover that at least the station entrances be located on Broadway, even if the stations themselves were located on 10th.

[deasine]

No... Entrances are on broadway...

[tintinium]

10th Avenue is slightly higher than Broadway, so the stations would be at the end of ~100m long gently sloping ramps down to the platform level.

[mr.x2]

At Alma I would elevate it and cut it up to 4th and on to UBC. I would then pressure the feds to give up their massive chunk of land for cheap and move their operations elsewhere. Then I would redevelop that in to a 20,000+ people community like the Fraser mills site but bigger because it would be planed along rapid transit. The skytrain line I would then ram down the throughts of the very few residents past jericho st(?) and then run it elevated along the golf course to UBC. The section of the golf course can be designed to blend in to the park so it can have living walls etc. installed on all the exposed concrete and the guideway can be covered in a tube to minimize noise.

By the way this got me thinking about costs, challenges etc. of installing a living surface on some of the current skytrain guide ways? It would make them look amazing and fit in to their surroundings much better, not to mention reduce noise pollution and reduce their environmental impact.

It can't be elevated west of Alma, the grade is way too steep....it has to be tunneled. And you're thinking about putting a tunnel portal in the middle of West Point Grey Village? Good luck with that...

There's no such thing as Jericho Street, you're either talking about Blanca or Sasamat Street (where there will be a station).

[mr.x2]

I'm wondering... wouldn't it be better and cheaper to run it at-grade past Blanca?

there isn't that much of a difference in cost between at-grade and elevated if you add in the cost of transitions:

Underground east of Blanca -> Transition -> At-grade west of Blanca -> Transition -> Underground at UBC (the university would never allow an elevated SkyTrain station in the middle of the campus)


BTW, please move ALL M-Line extension discussion to its proper topic.

[argon007]

oh my god.... see these people should get caught, and then punished to replace the entire bus AND stay in jail for at least 5 years



their parents should get more responsibility, because they are not over 18 year old.

[deasine]

their parents should get more responsibility, because they are not over 18 year old.

I'm sure the parents will be screwed enough since they owe 1.2 Million to TransLink for the trolley bus.

Us, taxpayers shouldn't pay for a bus that has been destroyed by someone else for satisfying thier own pleasure.

[SFUVancouver]

I'm not sure how you would even begin to rehabilitate people who enthusiastically committed an attack and arson like these girls did. They were raised wrong. Plain and simple. No "nurture vs nature" dialectic at all. I sure as hell hope the parents aren't shrugging this off or blaming their presumably lousy lot in life or society in general for their daughters' actions. The whole thing sickens me and I don't know how we fix it.

Are there any criminologists or criminology students reading this forum?

[mr.x2]

Are there any criminologists or criminology students reading this forum?

Mr.X here...criminologist, urban planner, urban designer, architect, accountant, lawyer, doctor, carnie, tooth fairy, actor, Olympic champion, janitor, police officer, fire fighter, an ambulance, and David Beckham

his solution: deport them to Iran...parents too.

[deasine]

I'm not sure how you would even begin to rehabilitate people who enthusiastically committed an attack and arson like these girls did. They were raised wrong. Plain and simple. No "nurture vs nature" dialectic at all. I sure as hell hope the parents aren't shrugging this off or blaming their presumably lousy lot in life or society in general for their daughters' actions. The whole thing sickens me and I don't know how we fix it.

Are there any criminologists or criminology students reading this forum?

I'm not surprised if their parents are doing this. One's children just show who their parents are. And call me racist and stereotypical, but some aboriginals just don't care about their chidlren. I'm not saying all, and I'm not saying this to offend anyone on this forum, but this issue is just pissing me off.

[deasine]

Latest News:

Kevin Falcon says they will model their system after London and Amsterdam. The SkyTrain system will have a card system or gate system for their stations. Gated systems: ridershop 30% increase, fare evasion dropped to 2% from 20%, safer in the restricted/controlled area of stations.

Private comopany will finance and install the gated system. More information will be presented next year.

Global News (will have more news after) [I'm typing this as the article is presented on global - I'm sorry if it sounds confusing/messy]

[mr.x2]

Latest News:

Kevin Falcon says they will model their system after London and Amsterdam. The SkyTrain system will have a card system or gate system for their stations. Gated systems: ridershop 30% increase, fare evasion dropped to 2% from 20%, safer in the restricted/controlled area of stations.

Private comopany will finance and install the gated system. More information will be presented next year.

Global News (will have more news after) [I'm typing this as the article is presented on global - I'm sorry if it sounds confusing/messy]

that sounds incredible...even orgasmic. at least Falcon is doing ONE thing right...

[deasine]

Lmfao!!!

[officedweller]

I saw the story on Global. Those figures are quoted as what Amsterdam experienced after implementing fare gates.

Sounds like the Province will pony up the cash - hopefully it'll also provide money for the increased operating costs of manning the stations (or maybe they'll just reassign existing staff - depends if the numbers jive).

The story did mention implementation next year, but if it's going to be privately supplied and operated, expect an RFP process that will take some time followed by contract negotiation and a lengthy construction process, which may in some cases require municipal approvals for station modifications. On top of that, Translink has indicated that it needs to thoroughly examine the various fare card technologies before barrelling forward - not sure how far along that process would be, although they have probably already started.

Hopefully they'll have enough space at the stations for more than say two turnstiles in each direction.

I think 2009 would be more realistic.

[mr.x2]

Hopefully they'll have enough space at the stations for more than say two turnstiles in each direction.

That would be an utter disaster...bottlenecks at the major stations, which do have quite narrow passages. Same goes with the Canada Line stations, especially Vancouver City Centre Station...there's only one narrow way in and out.

[deasine]

That would be an utter disaster...bottlenecks at the major stations, which do have quite narrow passages. Same goes with the Canada Line stations, especially Vancouver City Centre Station...there's only one narrow way in and out.


Hopefully they'll have enough space at the stations for more than say two turnstiles in each direction.

That is what I have been worrying about too. Many of the Expo Line stations don't really have a large ticket concourse level and actually have no room for gates, for instance: 29th Ave, Joyce, Patterson, Edmonds, etc. There will be a need of some kind of reconstruction with these stations AND/OR the purchasing of small/slim gates like some of the ones in Korea =D

Many of the Canada Line stations are really worrying me too.... such as VCC (like Mr. X said), Olympic Village, and Broadway - City Hall.

[deasine]

Slim Turnstiles:
http://www.intsi.org/productsfolder/pics/ALVARADO/444.jpg

http://english.gg.go.kr/resource/img/sub/to5_subway06.gif

http://www.electroautomation.com/images/mass-transit-turnstile-inst.jpg

[mr.x2]

That is what I have been worrying about too. Many of the Expo Line stations don't really have a large ticket concourse level and actually have no room for gates, for instance: 29th Ave, Joyce, Patterson, Edmonds, etc. There will be a need of some kind of reconstruction with these stations AND/OR the purchasing of small/slim gates, which i have not seen any on the market yet.

Many of the Canada Line stations are really worrying me too.... such as VCC (like Mr. X said), Olympic Village, and Broadway - City Hall.

A few years ago, Translink said it would require at least $100 million to install fare gates onto the Expo SkyTrain Line. Why? The stations weren't designed for fare gates and would require a rehaul.

However, the M-Line and Canada Line have fare gates in mind to their designs so it'll be quite cheaper to install.




And to see where I'm getting at, look at how narrow the passages are for the Canada Line:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6489/waterfrontaxonometricdpaz5.jpg
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/671/vancity1dd5.jpg
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7951/vancity3jg1.jpg

Is it just me or did anyone count 4 turnstiles for the Vancouver City Centre diagram?

[officedweller]

Most of the Canada Line plans just show maybe 4 gates total, plus a wider manual (or automatic?) gate for baby strollers and wheelchairs to get though.

Hopefully they won't be bi-directional gates - apparently those are irritating. My cousin who lived in NYC said that you have to stare down people coming from the opposite direction or you won't get through the gates - and if you hesitate after you pay your fare and the other person forces their way through, you can't get through and you've lost your fare.

[deasine]

Most of the Canada Line plans just show maybe 4 gates total, plus a wider manual (or automatic?) gate for baby strollers and wheelchairs to get though.

Hopefully they won't be bi-directional gates - apparently those are irritating. My cousin who lived in NYC said that you have to stare down people coming from the opposite direction or you won't get through the gates - and if you hesitate after you pay your fare and the other person forces their way through, you can't get through and you've lost your fare.

omg i hate those too...

But remember, the Canada Line is underground... if they ever need to expand. they can dig... though that will be $$$$$

[officedweller]

Sea Island shows 3 gates - but there's space for more on the other side of the elevator. I think most of the Canada Line stations can be configured to provide space. Even VCC can be reconfigured to cut back on the retail space and install gates at the wider area.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8358/seaisland2wg3.jpg

Aberdeen/Lansdowne style stations pose more of a problem - the gates are separate leading to each platform. If you go up the wrong escalator, you may have to pay again to exit and then go up the other side (but payment by distance would probably register as a zero distance travelled). BUT, you'd definitely have to pay again if you get off at Aberdeen after missing a stop at Bridgeport in order to make a U-turn. They need to ensure that you can switch platforms without exiting the system. That can be implemented by creating a passage from side to side along the back wall.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1135/aberdeen1kn1.jpg

[mr.x2]

couldn't they just knock down that wall in the Vancouver City Centre rendering? .....by relocating that expensive tunnel fan.

...and with regards to Aberdeen Station, extend the glass facade outwards.

[deasine]

couldn't they just knock down that wall in the Vancouver City Centre rendering? .....by relocating that expensive tunnel fan.

...and with regards to Aberdeen Station, extend the glass facade outwards.

What about extending into Pacific Centre (though I doubt they will allow that)

The problem officedweller pointed out also applies to MANY M-Line stations.

The News Report is out: http://video.canada.com/Video.aspx?33850

[mr.x2]

couldn't they open this area up so it acts more of as a passage way to the opposite direction platform, maybe with a glass divider in between:

note the red line, it's the glass wall
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1107/86335511rd8.jpg

[mr.x2]

What about extending into Pacific Centre (though I doubt they will allow that)

The problem officedweller pointed out also applies to MANY M-Line stations.

The News Report is out: http://video.canada.com/Video.aspx?33850

it'd never happen...

[officedweller]

Yeah, I noted that afterwards (amended my post a couple of times). I think that would work - and it only needs to be a railing / fence shoulder height.

Also mentioned that at VCC the retail space is flexible so that could be pared back to widen the concourse. I think they'll need it there.

The other ones of concern would be anywhere with a bus loop - Bridgeport/Marine/Brighouse especially.

Another option for some stations would be to move the ticket machines outside into a new secure enclosure i.e. behind rolldown shutters (granted they do have money in them and would be theft targets) and then the entire area at the base of the escalators could be behind gates. That would work for Joyce.

[officedweller]

Article from the Vancouver Sun on-line:

Faregates for SkyTrain
TransLink hopes to add entry and exit barriers at the stations in 2008

Kelly Sinoski and Doug Ward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Thursday, November 08, 2007

The SkyTrain system will likely be overhauled in the new year with faregates and smart cards in a bid to boost safety and reduce crime and fare evasion along the line.

TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie said today the new "controlled access" system - using entry and exit barriers at the stations - is expected to be installed in 2008. But he said it's still unknown how much it will cost, or where the money will come from.

He estimates retrofitting the Canada and Millennium lines with faregates would carry a capital cost of between $15 million and $20 million apiece per year, while the Expo line would be "substantially more."

Unlike the other two lines, the Expo line - the first leg of the SkyTrain - was not designed to accommodate controlled access, Brodie said.

Besides the gates, the stations would require attendants and maintenance staff.

"We have to understand how the system is going to be paid for; we need funding to cover the capital costs and the operating costs," said Brodie, who met with Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon a few weeks ago about the option but wasn't sure when an official announcement would be made.

"Costs will be a major factor whether you want it system wide or on just one line."

Falcon did not return calls today.

But Brodie said he supports the notion of faregates - used in major cities like London - to deter crime and reduce fare evasion.

The SkyTrain system has been operating under a proof-of-payment system and TransLink has estimated that it loses $6 million to $7 million a year in revenue through fare evasion. This includes people who ride SkyTrain without a ticket or slip in the backdoor of a bus plus those who buy a ticket for one zone and ride through three.

It was estimated in 2004 that 36.6 million people boarded SkyTrain and that roughly eight per cent didn't pay.

Fares account for only 37 per cent of revenue. SkyTrain officials have said previously that turnstiles were too expensive to be viable. The cost of a retrofit would be $90 million to $120 million, according to earlier estimates.

The province is also considering smart cards, which would allow commuters to buy a card - with a certain amount of money on it - and just scan it to get through the gates.

© Vancouver Sun

[deasine]

Another option for some stations would be to move the ticket machines outside into a new secure enclosure i.e. behind rolldown shutters (granted they do have money in them and would be theft targets) and then the entire area at the base of the escalators could be behind gates. That would work for Joyce.

That would work for many SkyTrain stations actually... Actually thinking about that: Edmonds station, one of the ticket machines are outside: as seen in this picture:

http://www.jimchang.com/listings/6740station/17.jpg

I'm going to use my first post of this thread to post the latest updates btw. I think i have too much time on my hands =P

From Officedweller who posted this on SCC
Faregates for SkyTrain
TransLink hopes to add entry and exit barriers at the stations in 2008

Kelly Sinoski and Doug Ward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Thursday, November 08, 2007

The SkyTrain system will likely be overhauled in the new year with faregates and smart cards in a bid to boost safety and reduce crime and fare evasion along the line.

TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie said today the new "controlled access" system - using entry and exit barriers at the stations - is expected to be installed in 2008. But he said it's still unknown how much it will cost, or where the money will come from.

He estimates retrofitting the Canada and Millennium lines with faregates would carry a capital cost of between $15 million and $20 million apiece per year, while the Expo line would be "substantially more."

Unlike the other two lines, the Expo line - the first leg of the SkyTrain - was not designed to accommodate controlled access, Brodie said.

Besides the gates, the stations would require attendants and maintenance staff.

"We have to understand how the system is going to be paid for; we need funding to cover the capital costs and the operating costs," said Brodie, who met with Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon a few weeks ago about the option but wasn't sure when an official announcement would be made.

"Costs will be a major factor whether you want it system wide or on just one line."

Falcon did not return calls today.

But Brodie said he supports the notion of faregates - used in major cities like London - to deter crime and reduce fare evasion.

The SkyTrain system has been operating under a proof-of-payment system and TransLink has estimated that it loses $6 million to $7 million a year in revenue through fare evasion. This includes people who ride SkyTrain without a ticket or slip in the backdoor of a bus plus those who buy a ticket for one zone and ride through three.

It was estimated in 2004 that 36.6 million people boarded SkyTrain and that roughly eight per cent didn't pay.

Fares account for only 37 per cent of revenue. SkyTrain officials have said previously that turnstiles were too expensive to be viable. The cost of a retrofit would be $90 million to $120 million, according to earlier estimates.

The province is also considering smart cards, which would allow commuters to buy a card - with a certain amount of money on it - and just scan it to get through the gates.

© Vancouver Sun

Updated front page

[mr.x2]

Transit takes tech fast-lane
By Matt Kieltyka, 24 hours

The Lower Mainland's public transit system doesn't exactly scream "high-tech," but that's about to change.

On Wednesday, New Westminsterbased Novax Industries was awarded a lucrative contract from TransLink to modernize the region's transit system with a wireless system it says will revolutionize municipal wireless capabilities.

In August, 24 hours reported on Novax's "TransPod," a wireless broadband system that gives transit vehicles priority through signalized intersections, remote telemetry and enhanced communication.

The technology also allows for information stations at bus stops that show riders where the nearest bus is and estimate its time of arrival, and even allow riders to access the Internet from a bus.

At the time, it seemed like a vision into the future.

But now that they have the green light from TransLink, Novax president Dave Atnikov told 24 hours that the infrastructure for the wireless mesh could begin to go up in a matter of months, starting with a 31-intersection "showcase" project down Main Street.

"Now it's real," said Atnikov. "[TransLink] has put their belief in municipal wireless and what it can do for infrastructure development in the region."

Before transit users start checking their e-mail on a bus, TransLink must decide whether to make the service available, which is not guaranteed.

[deasine]

So does that mean Main St. will be the second bus route in Vancouver to incorporate real time displays and automated messages on the bus then?

I noticed that there are more nad more electric buses that have digital led signs in the front now.

[deasine]

CTV says it would be completed by 2010 (the gates).

[mr.x2]

CTV says it would be completed by 2010 (the gates).

lol, i saw that too on their online recording. i initially thought it was just for dramatic event, since they are the 2010 host broadcaster. is it just me or whenever the anchors/reporters on CTV say "2010", they over pronounce it or put a huge emphasize in it. haha, subliminal messaging.

afterall, we did hear Global say "2008".

[officedweller]

That seems more reasonable.

[SpongeG]

i saw something on the Global news - sounds like the losses are a lot higher than they would ever admit to - about time to stop fare evaders...

what about setting up a free zone?

i was just in portland and the max and the street cars and busses have a "fareless square" where you can ride without paying

but the whole system itself is honour based like ours and only once did I see an officer with a ticket book get on our car and I don't think he even asked anyone to see their ticket

[mr.x2]

Crackdown on transit crime
Transportation minister plans transit security measures to deter cheaters

John Bermingham, With a file by John Colebourn, The Province
Published: Friday, November 09, 2007

The B.C. government wants to take the crime train out of SkyTrain.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon unveiled ideas yesterday to radically overhaul the transit system to make it a safer ride -- and to stop fare evaders in their tracks.

His sweeping plans include:

- Installing electronic turnstiles at every SkyTrain and Canada Line station before the 2010 Olympics, along with more closed-circuit cameras.

- Launching a smart-card system to be used on trains and buses, which can be recharged at vending machines or on the Internet.

- Pursuing fare evaders with criminal prosecutions and on-the-spot fines.

- Boosting security outside SkyTrain stations.

- Improving safety for bus drivers.

Falcon said he was impressed by the London Underground and the Dutch Metro system in Rotterdam during a trip to Europe in September.

After talking with senior security officials in London, he became convinced SkyTrain needs to install turnstiles and more closed-circuit TV.

"The personal safety of commuters improves dramatically in a closed system," he told The Province.

"Women, in particular, feel safer and are safer. It's a controlled area and criminals generally stay out."

Falcon said turnstiles weed out the hang-arounds and reduce the chance of an act of terrorism.

The head of the Dutch transit system told Falcon that prior to installing its gated system, 60 per cent of all violence and assaults were caused by people who didn't pay fares.

After the turnstiles went in, fare evasion fell from 20 per cent to two per cent and ridership rose by almost 30 per cent.

Turnstiles have been priced at $100 million plus, but Falcon hopes to find a private partner to build and operate the system on a revenue-sharing basis.

A smart-card system would allow passengers to pay as they go by touching their card on an electronic reader. The card automatically debits the fare and can be topped up at stations or on the Internet.

"It's very easy to use," said Falcon. "It actually grows your ridership dramatically. It's really convenient."

Falcon called current fare-evasion enforcement in B.C. "a joke," with evaders giving bogus names and refusing to pay $173 fines.

Transit cops in London criminally charge evaders if they give wrong names and levy on-the-spot fines. Falcon wants a similar system here.

"Your fare-evasion figures drop to single figures overnight," he said. "The fact is, it's too easy for people not to pay today. It has a corrosive effect on the honest people."

Fare-evaders cost TransLink up to $7 million a year.

Falcon said he's also relying on municipalities to increase police presence around SkyTrain stations.

TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie welcomed the turnstiles, smart-card system and toughening the fare-evasion regimen.

"I believe it's a matter of safety and security," he said. "And the perception and the reality of security will increase with the gated system."

Brodie said smart cards are "inevitable."

"Not only will the smart-card system support the turnstile system, I believe it will result in greater fare collection, and it will result in greater convenience to the public."

Meanwhile, commuters at the Waterfront SkyTrain station yesterday said the proposals make sense.

"I think turnstiles are a good idea," said SkyTrain rider Sharon Farrar, 50, of Port Coquitlam.

"Too many people are getting a free ride," she added.

Farrar also said more security cameras and more transit cops are welcome.

"There's no problem with more security if you aren't doing anything wrong," she said.

Jason Beck, 26, uses the SkyTrain regularly and wonders if fare cheats will be stopped by turnstiles.

"I think a lot of people will jump over the turnstiles," he said.

And he said he has more safety concerns when on buses.

"I think buses are worse than SkyTrains," he said.

"The stations are secure and most of the attacks are happening outside of the SkyTrain stations," he pointed out.

Summerland resident Krista Plomish, 35, in Vancouver on business, said she prefers to use the SkyTrain rather than her car.

She likes the system but knows ugly incidents happen.

"I have concerns about taking the SkyTrain at certain hours. More security is a good idea."

Falcon said he doesn't know the final cost of the security measures but will make sure TransLink gets the money to pull it off.

- Falcon also said he is thinking of starting random checks of vehicles and passengers prior to boarding B.C. Ferries to thwart terrorists.

"You can't check every vehicle and car," he said. "But there are random checks that could be undertaken. There are different ways you could approach it, that create real nervousness amongst people that have nefarious intentions."

jbermingham@png.canwest.com

[SFUVancouver]

I'm glad to hear London, New York, Paris, etc. have been able "to stop fare evaders in their tracks."

However I seem to remember Translink and others have done studies that find a proof-of-pavement system yields a rate of fare evasion that is statistically comparable to those with turnstiles. The cost of closing the gap would be well in excess of the revenue saved. Plus, come on, the people who are cheating are going to do so no matter what. What we need are more Transit Police and staff at each station and not a fortress mentality where every opening is closed with bars except the turnstiles. I think that approach would do far more harm than good to the public good because it would send the message that the problem is so bad we needed to resort to this. Instead our current system sends the message that the rules are being followed and random spot tests will be used to find the handful of cheats.

It's like walking into a bank and having a security guard there. If he were to pull a gun on you and pat you down as you enter, that would be the turnstile system. If he were to nod and say hello then the deterrence would be there without resorting to treating everyone like a criminal. In transit the turnstiles aren't the deterrent, its the staff and police who are.

I've got no problem at all with additional CCTVs. The ones they've got now look ancient, only one or two steps removed from film cameras.

Here is my biggest concern about turnstiles, there isn't room in our stations for the lineups that will inevitably form to pass through them. Commercial Drive/Broadway Station regularly has two or three full 99 B-Line 60-foot articulated buses arrive simultaneously. It is not unusual at all to have two or three hundred people streaming into the station in a matter of moments while a similar number make their way out of the station or to the out-bound 99 B-Line stop. There is only room for three or, maybe, four turnstiles side by side at each entrance in each direction, and if I'm not mistaken you have to use your smart card again as you exit a station to end the trip calculation. This means that at any given time there could be upwards of four or five hundred people trying to stream through narrow entrances and exits to use their smart cards at this station and it just wasn't designed to have the immense mezzanine to accommodate such a crowd. And what about strollers, wheelchairs, buggies, and bikes? Will there even be room to install a barrier-free entrance? Will that have to be staffed? Will we need staff at each barrier free entrance in each station throughout the system??

I'm all for fare enforcement but this is a dead horse that is being beaten. Fare evasion is low and we have a cost effective system of enforcement through spot checks and dragnets using staff that provide additional assistance and wayfinding help. We should have more transit police and SkyTrain staff at each station but I have yet to hear a compelling argument for installing turnstiles in our system.

Lastly, the people who are busted for fare evasion are almost universally deadbeat addicts or foreigners who probably couldn't read the signs. The former should be put into stocks and the latter should be let off with a warning and a quick demonstration of purchasing a fare. The machines function in many languages other than english and once someone with a language barrier learns how to access their own language or can memorize how to buy a fare, then the problem is solved.

[mezzanine]

^ IMO, vancouver is unique in that the the people who do drug-driven crime are rootless, shiftless and very fluid. they don't worry about spot checks, they don't worry about fines or penalties. I've been to vienna, and although they have an honor system, they do not have this demographic that we have here. london underground-style gates provide some deterent to this, notperfect, but I think that people will notice a sharp difference once this is in.

As well, as I've mentioned before, with turnstiles we may be able to get rid of ridiculous zone boundaries and try to use a more fair 'pay for distance' model. many people I know in by joyce station would rather drive to metrotown instead of using skytrain.

[djh]

I'm glad to hear London, New York, Paris, etc. have been able "to stop fare evaders in their tracks."

...

It's like walking into a bank and having a security guard there. If he were to pull a gun on you and pat you down as you enter, that would be the turnstile system. If he were to nod and say hello then the deterrence would be there without resorting to treating everyone like a criminal. In transit the turnstiles aren't the deterrent, its the staff and police who are.



Pity about your analogy, but BC has one of the highest rate of bank robbery in Canada. And BC is precisely where the "security guard" system is in place. Last I heard, there were about 350 bank robberies in BC per year (I think the stat was for 2006). Robberies were way higher in the "nod and say hello" BC than they were in the "pat you down" east - I know at least Royal Bank has the staff behind bulletproof glass barriers in some branches. See the Statscan website for exact stats, but I remember it being something like 150 robberies for Vancouver and 100 robberies for Toronto, per year.

As I said in another thread, in fact in 2 other threads, regarding crime on buses and crime in and around skytrain, a lot of crime is opportunistic. If people think they can get away with it they will try. If you prevent them from doing so in the first place, YES it makes your business look less friendly, but it can save pain, expense and often lives.

And the fact that Translink is doing such a massive U-Turn on the subject of turnstiles supports this theory.

[mr.x2]

Didn't Amsterdam see a 30% increase in subway use after fare gates were installed? Surely, we'd see similar results with SkyTrain and the additional ridership could offset the new operating costs of those fare gates.

Don't forget that fare gates on SkyTrain will likely be another one of Falcon's private sector ventures.

----

These gates will have to be installed sometime in the future anyway, might as well make it now. It'll eliminate much of the crime that's rampant on the system and it'll give the public a sense (or false sense) of safety - either way, it's good since the image of SkyTrain isn't all that great right now....but i do agree with SFU Vancouver's concerns about bottlenecks. I'd assume any fare gate installation would be accompanied by expanding the mezzanine/concourse areas of the station.

For e.g., as posted before, look at how narrow the C-Line's City Centre Station is....from what i can see, there's a ridiculous 4 turnstiles in the diagram.....that's some nice planning -
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/671/vancity1dd5.jpg
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7951/vancity3jg1.jpg

[paradigm4]

And the fact that Translink is doing such a massive U-Turn on the subject of turnstiles supports this theory.

TransLink did not do a u-turn. Kevin Falcon came back from a trip, said he wants turnstiles, and is now pushing TransLink to okay the idea. TransLink will not be the one to pay for it - as has already been reported, Falcon wants to do a P3, where the private corporation will get a pecentage of revenue (It's not clear whether this is fare revenue, or evasion ticket revenue). TransLink has always been of the position that the cost to benefit ratio does not make fiscal sense for them to invest in a turnstile system.

It'll eliminate much of the crime that's rampant on the system and it'll give the public a sense (or false sense) of safety - either way, it's good since the image of SkyTrain isn't all that great right now

Crime is not rampant on SkyTrain. Our rail system is one of the safest around. It does not conjure up images of ghetto drug dealers and homeless people (that's only late at night on weekdays in Surrey). Generally speaking, it's a very nice looking, brightly-lit, and security patrolled system that nary anyone should feel scared about using. It's all about perception though, and those who don't ride SkyTrain are the ones who think it's like the New York Subway.

[nname]

For e.g., as posted before, look at how narrow the C-Line's City Centre Station is....from what i can see, there's a ridiculous 4 turnstiles in the diagram.....that's some nice planning -
Maybe for the size of our system, 3-4 turnstiles should be enough? I remembered some time ago there were 2 transit polices manually inspecting tickets at the entrance (before escalator) of metrotown station during afternoon peak, and I don't recall there's any back up of people who are trying to enter the station..

[On a side note.. I don't think they'll catch any invader this way as the tvm just right beside them...]

[deasine]

Maybe for the size of our system, 3-4 turnstiles should be enough? I remembered some time ago there were 2 transit polices manually inspecting tickets at the entrance (before escalator) of metrotown station during afternoon peak, and I don't recall there's any back up of people who are trying to enter the station..

[On a side note.. I don't think they'll catch any invader this way as the tvm just right beside them...]

great... as if a downtown Canada Line station only needs 4 turnstiles =.="

[mr.x2]

great... as if a downtown Canada Line station only needs 4 turnstiles =.="

i actually miscounted, make it three turnstiles.

[deasine]

I don't know how the hell the Canada planners were doing:
1) Platform Sizes
2) Ticket Concourse Sizes
3) NVM I CAN THINK OF SOO MANY MORE BUT THIS IS JUST MAKING ME FEEL SAD

[mr.x2]

I don't know how the hell the Canada planners were doing:
1) Platform Sizes
2) Ticket Concourse Sizes
3) NVM I CAN THINK OF SOO MANY MORE BUT THIS IS JUST MAKING ME FEEL SAD

politicians, planners, and businessmen were counting their pennies.
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DGV/DGV078/200263642-001.jpg

[officedweller]

FYI - here's the Translink report from the Dec 7, 2005 Board Meeting when they decided NOT to exercise the option to add fare gates to the Canada Line (though the option was preserved for future implementation) - it provides an interesting read:

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/board_files/meet_agenda_min/2005/12_07_05/Canada_Line_Controlled_Access_Attachment_A.pdf

[mr.x2]

SkyTrain fare gates earlier dismissed as too costly

Vancouver Sun
Published: Friday, November 09, 2007

VANCOUVER - Putting fare gates on SkyTrain and the Canada Line would cost more than $30 million a year to install and operate and reduce fare evasion by less than $3 million, a report prepared by TransLink's staff predicted just two years ago.

On Thursday, Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon announced plans to install fare gates in a bid to reduce fare evasion and improve public safety.

The proposal - which Falcon says will be paid for entirely by the province - has the support of Richmond Mayor Malcolm Brodie, TransLink's chair.

However, in December 2005, TransLink's board overwhelmingly rejected fare gates after a detailed report by its staff found it wouldn't come anywhere close to paying for itself.

Vancouver city Coun. Peter Ladner, a TransLink board member, said Friday he was not sure why gates are a better idea now than they were two years ago.

"I'm quite puzzled by this decision and I'm looking forward to hearing the justification for it," he said.

He noted TransLink has already invested millions of dollars in hiring SkyTrain police to reduce fare evasion.

"I'd like to see ... whether we can achieve the same goal with a better use of their resources rather than jumping into a system we've previously decided didn't make economic sense," he said.

George Puil, who was chairman of TransLink from 1998 to 2003, said the board looked at fare gates twice during his tenure and was convinced both times that they cost more than they were worth.

"I think the money could be used elsewhere," he said. "You could use it to have more police ... around SkyTrain stations."

In an interview Friday, Falcon estimated that installing fare gates at all stations would cost in the "$80 million to $100 million range."

He acknowledged, however, that only covers one-time construction costs. TransLink's 2005 report estimated that, on top of that, it would also have to hire nearly 400 attendants to staff the gates, both to ensure people weren't jumping over them and to let through those who can't use them, such as people with excess luggage or in wheelchairs.

Combined with the costs of installing the new gates, amortized over 20 years, the 2005 report put the total annual cost of fare gates at $32.2 million.

In contrast, it estimated gates would reduce fare evasion by only $2.9 million. Based on extensive spot checks, TransLink estimates that about 4.9 per cent of SkyTrain revenues are lost through fare evasion. Falcon and Brodie said they think the rate is much higher.

"There's no way in an open system you're going to be losing that little," said Falcon. He said transit operators in Europe told him their fare-evasion rates are as high as 30 per cent.

However, neither Falcon or Brodie was able to identify any flaws with the way TransLink compiled its figures.

"I just believe the numbers are higher [from] the times I've ridden the system," said Brodie. "It's not scientific, it's anecdotal. But I certainly believe it."[/color][/B]

The report states that many people believe fare evasion is higher than it really is because they see so many people get on the train without buying a ticket.

However, TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said most of those people actually have paid, either by buying a monthly pass or transferring from a bus.

Falcon said he's convinced that, over time, gates will pay for themselves by reducing evasion. But even if they don't, he said, the province thinks it is worth doing to reduce crime on transit. In the first six months of this year, TransLink's police service recorded 189 drug crimes, 381 property crimes and 239 violent crimes.

Simon Fraser University criminologist Paul Brantingham said research suggests fare gates can deter crime both on the transit system itself and around stations, by making it more of a hassle for criminals to get on.

Nancy La Vigne, an expert on transit crime at the Urban Institute in Washington, D.C., said it may seem strange that a two-dollar fare would deter any criminal from using SkyTrain. But she said research shows most criminals are not very motivated, committing crimes only when the opportunity arises. The hassle and cost of a turnstile, she said, will be enough for many to hang out elsewhere.

"Little changes that make things more difficult can have a big impact," she said.

cskelton@png.canwest.com


© Vancouver Sun

[officedweller]

Note that the $32.2M per year includes the amortization of the initial capital costs. If those capital costs are covered by the Province, the annual operating costs should be lower than the $32.2M.

[djh]

"He acknowledged, however, that only covers one-time construction costs. TransLink's 2005 report estimated that, on top of that, it would also have to hire nearly 400 attendants to staff the gates, both to ensure people weren't jumping over them and to let through those who can't use them, such as people with excess luggage or in wheelchairs."

I remember those numbers from the original report.
Why would Translink have to hire *extra staff* to man the gates? Currently there are roughly half a dozen staff at each station that are there to ensure station security and safety. Would this job not extend to the turnstiles?! No extra staff needed - that's how it works in every other turnstile system I've ever been on around the world, so it could be the same here.

[deasine]

"He acknowledged, however, that only covers one-time construction costs. TransLink's 2005 report estimated that, on top of that, it would also have to hire nearly 400 attendants to staff the gates, both to ensure people weren't jumping over them and to let through those who can't use them, such as people with excess luggage or in wheelchairs."

I remember those numbers from the original report.
Why would Translink have to hire *extra staff* to man the gates? Currently there are roughly half a dozen staff at each station that are there to ensure station security and safety. Would this job not extend to the turnstiles?! No extra staff needed - that's how it works in every other turnstile system I've ever been on around the world, so it could be the same here.

If it was that simple, I'm sure they would have done that. Usually, there is about one or two skytrain attendants per SkyTrain station. Those SkyTrain attendants have the responsibility to check fares (which is NEVER done), giving directions, making sure there are no one dropping anything on tracks, etc. And they must be there because our system is automated with no staff on the trains. Extra attendants must be hired to make sure no one jumps the gates, etc.

[officedweller]

I think the assumption may be that roving attendants would be retained and not re-deployed to being faregate attendants - not sure why that would be though. Could be a union / job description / assignment of work issue.

[deasine]

I think the assumption may be that roving attendants would be retained and not re-deployed to being faregate attendants - not sure why that would be though. Could be a union / job description / assignment of work issue.

that's also one of the factors....... for sure the SkyTrain attendants will be complaining that they were assigned one extra duty (or actually many), then there will be new contracts needed, a strike might happen, etc.

[mr.x2]

how hard can it be to stand around at a SkyTrain platform and then switch over to a booth next to the fare gates? blast these unions.

[officedweller]

Good article criticizing the City of Vancouver for not densifying around Skytrain Stations:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=17481292-c723-4411-a184-12723a431a15&p=1

Key density growth to SkyTrain stations

Bob Ransford, Vancouver Sun
Published: Saturday, November 10, 2007

Public transit infrastructure should follow dense urban growth. Public transit infrastructure should be in place to attract more dense growth.

Density or urban infill growth and transit infrastructure need to be planned simultaneously and are dependent on each other.

Which of the foregoing three statements is correct when it comes to managing growth in a rapidly growing urban region?

Hopefully, common sense would tell you that we should plan density, or urban infill growth, at the same time we are planning the expansion of our integrated transit network in Metro Vancouver.

Unfortunately, there's a shortage of common sense when it comes to our governing institutions and their decision-makers.

Mayor Sam Sullivan says that today, transit ridership in the Broadway corridor tops 60,000 people a day. He says this justifies the need to extend the Millennium SkyTrain system from Clark Drive all the way west to UBC.

I recall a similar argument being made when politicians were attempting to justify a $1-billion-plus expenditure on the Richmond-Airport-Vancouver rapid transit line a few years ago.

That project, now topping $2 billion as it approaches completion, runs through a continuous corridor of low-to medium-density development in Vancouver. There are a number of nodes south of the downtown peninsula where significant growth could occur along the Cambie Street-Canada Line corridor, but "could" is the operative word. Whether or not growth does occur along the Cambie corridor is up to Mayor Sullivan and Vancouver city council.

One small developer has been working for at least two years trying to get approval to build six fee-simple townhomes on a single-family lot that fronts directly on Cambie, not far from one of the Canada Line stations.

Not only will it be a model development for the kind of row-housing developments that don't yet exist in this city, it is a form of modest density in an area that should welcome even more density.

Plans have been drafted for some modest new infill development around one of the more important Canada Line stations -- Oakridge -- at 41st Avenue. There are four other stations south of the density that will occur near the Olympic Village station on the southeast corner of False Creek. Density needs to occur around each of these stations, just as it is being planned around at least three of Richmond's four Canada Line stations.

We can't afford to build a $2-billion transit system and have it serve an under-built corridor. The Canada Line was supposed to serve a corridor with existing density. It was also supposed to attract new density. Many would argue that the density it served was primarily commercial and institutional density, and not residential density. If the Oakridge plan is any indicator of the type of density increases we can expect to see around the other Canada Line stations, the whole project has failed.

There are already two transit corridors that run east-west through the eastern part of the city where growth has yet to live up to the potential that rapid transit was meant to spur. One line has been in place for more than two decades.

The other, about a decade. There are at least five transit stations along these two lines where the predominant form of residential development within walking distance of the station is still single-family residential.

What is an appropriate density along these transit lines and around their stations? Look at how Burnaby has planned growth around most of the 11 stations in that municipality. Infill development around the Patterson, Metrotown and Edmonds stations has now matured and is a good example of the kind of medium- to high-density development that should be developed around transit stations.

Similar growth is underway around at least three or four other SkyTrain stations in Burnaby.

Surrey is also beginning to see the potential for infill growth around its SkyTrain stations. That city has the potential of developing an entire new downtown around the Surrey Central station.

It seems as though decision-makers and developers in Surrey are beginning to realize that potential.

That leaves Vancouver. Before the mayor talks a lot more about extending the rapid transit system along Broadway, perhaps he can demonstrate what the city is prepared to accommodate in terms of new growth around Vancouver's existing SkyTrain stations.

Bob Ransford is a public affairs consultant with CounterPoint Communications Inc. He is a former real estate developer who specializes in urban land use issues. E-mail: ransford@counterpoint.ca

© The Vancouver Sun 2007

[mr.x2]

NDP MLAs unveil strategy to make SkyTrain stations safer

Doug Ward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Monday, November 12, 2007

VANCOUVER - The provincial NDP supports the B.C. Liberal government's proposal to install turnstiles at every SkyTrain and Canada Line station - but the opposition party doesn't want to wait until a private partner is found to build and operate the system.

NDP MLA Adrian Dix told reporters today that Victoria should give TransLink a direct grant from the provincial surplus to quickly develop a system of transit fare gates.

"We shouldn't waste money on private-sector schemes. We have the resources now to make the system safer," said Dix.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon announced plans last week to install turnstiles in an attempt to cut fare evasion and improve public safety.

Falcon also said he hopes to find a private partner to run the fare gate system on a revenue-sharing basis.

Dix said he supports turnstiles because they will reduce crime at transit stations - not because he thinks they will pay for themselves.

"It's clear that the incremental revenue from turnstiles will not pay for the capital construction," Dix told reporters. "So this has to be a decision that improves transit security and safety at stations."

Falcon said last week that the cost of turnstiles would be recovered eventually by reducing fare evasion.

Dix said that turnstiles would increase security by making it more difficult for criminals to get into a SkyTrain station.

"I think SkyTrain suffers from being a bit of an uncontrolled atmosphere right now."

Dix spoke about turnstiles during a NDP press conference held to unveil the party's 10-step strategy to cut crime at transit stations.

The NDP's proposals include:

- Increasing the number of SkyTrain police by 50 per cent until there is one security person at every station while a line is in operation.

- Provide additional after-hours security at all stations.

- Implement a pilot walk-home program for at least five high-risk stations.

Dix was joined at the media event by Dave Toner, whose son Matthew was beaten to death at Surrey Central SkyTrain station in 2005.

Toner, co-founder of Families Against Crime and Trauma, said that TransLink promised in August that it would provide 24-hour policing at a number of SkyTrain stations.

"We've been pressing them to honor their commitments. You can't put a price on public safety," said Toner.

The press conference was held at the 29th Street Station in East Vancouver, said Dix, because a vicious attack on a woman took place near the station in April and another six attacks have taken place within a few blocks.

Dix said that security at stations is essential if transit is going to become a key component of the region's climate change strategy. If governments are urging people to use transit, said Dix, "we have an absolute obligation to ensure their safety."




© Vancouver Sun

[mr.x2]

TransLink must get its act together over SkyTrain turnstiles

The Province
Published: Monday, November 12, 2007

F orgive us for being skeptical about the latest initiative to install turnstiles on SkyTrain to crack down on fare cheats and improve rider safety.

Politicians have been talking about this for years.

Eight years ago, Jenny Kwan, the NDP minister responsible for SkyTrain, and nine transit officials went on an expensive junket to England to view London's transit system and the fare gates there.

But early the following year, TransLink board members were handed a report downplaying fare evasion and crime on the system.

Then, that summer, an opinion poll of Greater Vancouver residents showed 89 per cent believed gates on both the Expo and Millennium lines would, guess what, deter fare evasion and improve security.

But still nothing was done. And still the system relies on the "honesty" of riders to cough up the cash, when it is clear many aren't honest at all. Some are even violent.

Now, following a trip to Europe in September, Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon says he is impressed by the London and Dutch transit systems and has become convinced of the need to install turnstiles.

And TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie says a new "controlled access" system is expected to be installed next year. But he apparently does not know how much it will cost or where the money is coming from.

Falcon, meanwhile, says he will make sure TransLink gets the cash that's needed.

Let's hope he does.

Turnstiles for SkyTrain are way overdue. It's high time our transit bosses stopped posturing about them -- and started having them installed.


© The Vancouver Province 2007

[mr.x2]

Quite a bit of support....



TRANSIT SECURITY: 'WE COULD PASS IT VERY QUICKLY'
NDP pushes SkyTrain safety measures

CATHRYN ATKINSON
Special to The Globe and Mail
November 13, 2007

The NDP says the provincial government is missing the opportunity to put in place extra security measures on the SkyTrain system in the current legislative session, adding that the issue could be settled before the House breaks for Christmas in two weeks time.

Opposition MLAs Mike Farnworth and Adrian Dix presented a 10-point list of safety improvements at a news conference yesterday at the 29th Avenue SkyTrain Station in East Vancouver, the scene of several attacks earlier this year.

They want more SkyTrain police in order to put one officer at each station while the line is operating, additional after-hours security at all stations, and a pilot walk-home program for commuters at five high-risk stations. They also want turnstiles to be built at stations through a direct grant from the provincial government, rather than with the financial involvement of a private company - as outlined by Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon last week.

Mr. Farnworth, the NDP's public safety critic, said the government could bring in a bill immediately as an added expense on this year's budget.

"We could pass it very quickly. It would send a strong message to the public about increased security," he said.

Mr. Farnworth said this year's $4.1-billion budget surplus could fund the New Democrats' suggestions, including turnstiles.

"There is no reason why we can't use some of that money to improve the SkyTrain system. We'd be more than happy to pass any spending bill to do that," he said.

Mr. Dix, whose Vancouver-Kingsway constituency has more SkyTrain stations than any other in the Lower Mainland, said there had been seven assaults on women at these stations this year. He added that a NDP-sponsored petition with "several thousand" names had been sent to TransLink requesting immediate action on SkyTrain safety.

In an interview, Mr. Falcon said the NDP's ideas were "back-of-the-envelope recommendations."

"We have to remember the response that TransLink takes is based on thoughtful, researched [evidence]," he said. "But I'm glad they're talking about this even if they are coming late to the party."

Mr. Falcon said it is "unfortunate" that the NDP is holding back debate in the legislature on the TransLink Governance Bill, meant to eventually restructure the public transport agency.

"One of the major things we are trying to do in restructuring TransLink is to provide it with ... hundreds of millions of dollars over the next 10 to 15 years, that would allow them to do exactly those kind of suggestions, and they need financial tools to do that."

[deasine]

scary...
http://www.beyondrobson.com/20071115_translink.jpg

[The_Henry_Man]

scary...
http://www.beyondrobson.com/20071115_translink.jpg

Oh shit....yeah, indeed!!
Almost like it's a scene out of a movie.

[mr.x2]

Speed III: Trolleys Go Wild!

[cornholio]

Note that the $32.2M per year includes the amortization of the initial capital costs. If those capital costs are covered by the Province, the annual operating costs should be lower than the $32.2M.

Yup they would be just under $30 million, $29 something I think but the actual number is on page 1 of the turnstile thread under a link you posted.

[cornholio]

"He acknowledged, however, that only covers one-time construction costs. TransLink's 2005 report estimated that, on top of that, it would also have to hire nearly 400 attendants to staff the gates, both to ensure people weren't jumping over them and to let through those who can't use them, such as people with excess luggage or in wheelchairs."

I remember those numbers from the original report.
Why would Translink have to hire *extra staff* to man the gates? Currently there are roughly half a dozen staff at each station that are there to ensure station security and safety. Would this job not extend to the turnstiles?! No extra staff needed - that's how it works in every other turnstile system I've ever been on around the world, so it could be the same here.

Cool so no more safety and security on trains and platforms.
By the way the 400 figure I believe would result in 200 attendants working at a time, 10 hour shifts, which if I remember would be 1 attendant at each station entrance.

[djh]

Cool so no more safety and security on trains and platforms.
By the way the 400 figure I believe would result in 200 attendants working at a time, 10 hour shifts, which if I remember would be 1 attendant at each station entrance.

The transit police should be dealing with security (e.g., on the platforms), the attendants "attending" to people (e.g., helping disabled people through gates, helping people get tickets through machines, etc.), not making the stations more secure. That's why I'm questioning if extra staff are needed, as the existing staff should now be allowed to do their job and the transit police can keep the stations safe

[mr.x2]

Falcon wants SkyTrain to run longer hours
Nov, 15 2007 - 10:10 PM

VICTORIA/CKNW(AM980) - Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon would like the Translink Board to look at keeping Skytrain running a few hours later at night. Falcon says a lot of people complain about the fact Skytrain isn't open late enough for them to get home after the bars close in Vancouver, "So, I do think it would be helpful to at least take a look at that that Translink could take a look at that and provide them the opportunities to take the Skytrain home safely."

The last Skytrain to leave Waterfront Station to King George goes at 1:15 in the morning.





Changing TransLink is futile until Falcon lets go

Vancouver Sun
Published: Thursday, November 15, 2007

In April, the provincial government introduced, to much hoopla, the South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority Act, which will restructure the governance of TransLink.

Under the new act, the 12 Metro Vancouver mayors and councillors who currently compose the TransLink board will be replaced by a group of professionals. These professionals, while taking political direction from a new council of mayors, will be responsible for the day-to-day operation of TransLink.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon said the new structure would restore public confidence through accountability and governance. But one has to wonder what the point of the exercise is, since Falcon now seems determined to continue to make decisions that should really be taken by the board.

Witness current TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie's recent announcement that SkyTrain stations will soon be equipped with a new "controlled access" system involving entry and exit barriers or fare gates on the station platforms.

While Brodie apparently supports the plan, he noted that it was devised by Falcon after a visit to London's Underground.

Now various parties have debated the merits of placing gates or turnstiles at SkyTrain stations for years, but making a decision on the matter seems like a perfect job for a board of professionals.

After all, there are many things to consider, not the least of which is cost. SkyTrain officials previously suggested that the cost of retrofitting gates would be prohibitive -- in the range of $90 million to $120 million.

However, Brodie recently said that the capital cost for retrofitting gates on the Canada and Millennium Lines would be about $20 million, and "substantially more" for the Expo Line. But he was unable to say where the money would come from.

On the other hand, installing fare gates or turnstiles could save money in the long run. While the majority of travellers do pay their fares, about eight per cent don't, and only about 20 per cent of cheaters who get caught pay their fines.

According to TransLink, this fare evasion results in the loss of $6 million to $7 million a year. Further, according to data gathered during the trip to London's Underground, installing turnstiles triggered a 30-per-cent drop in crime on one subway line, and vandalism and assaults decreased by 80 per cent and 50 per cent respectively.

Moreover, apparently as a result of people feeling safer taking public transit, ridership increased by 10 per cent. All of these figures suggest that despite the outlay of significant sums to pay the capital costs of installing fare gates, it might be possible to eventually recoup those monies.

So there are clear benefits and drawbacks to installing turnstiles. It seems that a board of professionals would be ideally suited to make the decision, after carefully considering the pros and cons.

But if instead Falcon insists on continuing to make all the important decisions, then the change to the structure of the TransLink board will be merely cosmetic.

[deasine]

Remember to attend the South of Fraser information sessions by TransLink:

In Langley, on November 19 @ Langley City Hall Public Library from 9:00-20:00 and on Nov 22 @ Walnut Grove Recreation Centre from 14:00-22:00.

In Surrey, on November 28 @ Cloverdale Kwantlen University College from 12:00-21:00.
Article Link: http://translink.bc.ca/files/buzzer/2007/Buzzer_Nov16.pdf (pdf)


Updated Front Post

[tintinium]

I'm sure that statistics will be found to support the spending that will be made on the turnstiles... numbers can be manipulated or misrepresented in many ways.

Perceived safety is important, but it is not because of gates, but rather, an obvious consequence. Because there is a necessary human presence needed at all stations at all times. This could be accomplished with or without gates.

[officedweller]

Falcon wants SkyTrain to run longer hours
Nov, 15 2007 - 10:10 PM

VICTORIA/CKNW(AM980) - Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon would like the Translink Board to look at keeping Skytrain running a few hours later at night. Falcon says a lot of people complain about the fact Skytrain isn't open late enough for them to get home after the bars close in Vancouver, "So, I do think it would be helpful to at least take a look at that that Translink could take a look at that and provide them the opportunities to take the Skytrain home safely."

The last Skytrain to leave Waterfront Station to King George goes at 1:15 in the morning.


The Copenhagen Metro charges double the regular fare late at night (from their website):


*Night operation

Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday mornings only.

Night fares

Night fares: Ticket tariffs are doubled if you board the Metro between 1 and 5 a.m. If you use a ten trip card you'll need to punch twice during nighttime.

Of course if we get manned turnstiles, then the cost of night service will also increase. Copenhagen is fully automated with a fare paid honour system.

[Hot Rod]

I think Falcon is making great decisions - he's making Vancouver become a BIG CITY - finally. If the Translink Board were making these types of decisions already, then Im sure Falcon would not interfere. But because of their political ambitions and lack of global/urban consideration for the system, Falcon needed to come in and 'kick some ass' and get some much needed accessories and policies in place.

Who cares if the board is cosmetic, we want a reliable, safe, and cost effective metro system and I don't see anybody on Translink's board doing anything thus far that would not warrant Falcon's recent push.

Heck, I'd even say that falcon should be the 'boss' of the system - as long as he makes it into a true urban metro (which his policies are doing), there's nothing for anyone to complain about.

I often wondered why SkyTrain ended at 1:15pm when we have such a large centralized downtown and entertainment districts, which suburbanites come into. I dont think the system should run all night, but I do think the last train should go to at least 2:30am (and maybe even have a few trains go until just after 4am on weekend/large event nights). There would still be at least an hour of downtime, and we're only talking about running a train every 15 minutes (or more) for the night owl service - so you could still do maintenance work on trains and track.

Like I said, these 'common sense' ideas should have already been in place, but it too