[ikerrin]

Just wondering if anyone thinks that the time has come to go our own way and let the burbs go theirs?

Its strikes me that there is synergy between the link-up of Old Ottawa, Vanier, Nepean and Goucester, but that Kanata and Orleans and all the farm lands add very little to rational decisions for a modern city.

The outer burbs seem to dilute the case for LRT and transit, and they use up a lot of tax revenues building sprawl, while development in the greenbelt is more about intensification and infill.

So, do you think its time for us to go our seperate ways?

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Hells.


Fucking.


Yes.

[BlackRedGold]

I would be all for the return of Nepean as its own city.

[clynnog]

Just wondering if anyone thinks that the time has come to go our own way and let the burbs go theirs?

Its strikes me that there is synergy between the link-up of Old Ottawa, Vanier, Nepean and Goucester, but that Kanata and Orleans and all the farm lands add very little to rational decisions for a modern city.

The outer burbs seem to dilute the case for LRT and transit, and they use up a lot of tax revenues building sprawl, while development in the greenbelt is more about intensification and infill.

So, do you think its time for us to go our seperate ways?

What would you do with Bells Corners and Blackburn Hamlet...they are surrounded by the greenbelt.

Many City Councillors in the burbs talk the talk at times, but when push comes to shove and their constituants start railing against intensification, public transit and the other perceived ills of a city, they collapse like a pyramid of cards pretty quickly.

[Mille Sabords]

No. In the long run it makes a lot more sense to have one municipal government for this city. It makes downtown everyone's business and we are already too intertwined when it comes to services. Turning back the clock will dilute economies of scale and reintroduce false debates about small stuff that we should leave behind us once and for all as a mature large city.

[jeremy_haak]

I'm not really sure how splitting the urban areas off would reduce sprawl. I think one thing that could work would be to have a certain number of counselors-at-large who wouldn't be immediately accountable to one constituency, but to the city as a whole.

[vid]

Ottawa is currently single tiered. It would probably make more sense to make it double tiered again. I think Sudbury has similar problems, and I'm sure Hamilton does too. Heck, even Thunder Bay has these issues. People opposing things concerning downtown when they never even go there.

Besides, the green belt should have been much thicker. It's been a failure.

[lrt's friend]

Ben Franklin admitted that starting Barrhaven outside the Greenbelt was a mistake. Suburban sprawl especially outside the Greenbelt, and the beginning of big box malls (old Shopper's City and Towers) all began because suburban municipalities (and especially their politicians) were competing with Ottawa to build their own kingdoms. A return to this and we are talking about turning the clock back to before the Regional Municipality in 1969 will result in a planning disaster, and could bankrupt Ottawa while neighbouring suburbs are rolling in cash. Look at Detroit and its affluent suburbs.

[Mille Sabords]

Ben Franklin admitted that starting Barrhaven outside the Greenbelt was a mistake. Suburban sprawl especially outside the Greenbelt, and the beginning of big box malls (old Shopper's City and Towers) all began because suburban municipalities (and especially their politicians) were competing with Ottawa to build their own kingdoms. A return to this and we are talking about turning the clock back to before the Regional Municipality in 1969 will result in a planning disaster, and could bankrupt Ottawa while neighbouring suburbs are rolling in cash. Look at Detroit and its affluent suburbs.

I totally agree with you there. While Nepean could insolently smirk on the city-limit signs that they were debt free, the signs were obviously not large enough to explain that they grew off the teat of downtown taxpayers, mooching off the commercial tax base for all the infrastructure and then stealing residents out of the old central city. Never again.

[O-Town Hockey]

not large enough to explain that they grew off the teat of downtown taxpayers

:haha:
Nice angry rant

[Cambridgite]

Ben Franklin admitted that starting Barrhaven outside the Greenbelt was a mistake. Suburban sprawl especially outside the Greenbelt, and the beginning of big box malls (old Shopper's City and Towers) all began because suburban municipalities (and especially their politicians) were competing with Ottawa to build their own kingdoms. A return to this and we are talking about turning the clock back to before the Regional Municipality in 1969 will result in a planning disaster, and could bankrupt Ottawa while neighbouring suburbs are rolling in cash. Look at Detroit and its affluent suburbs.

Very good point. I think there are a lot of benefits to uni-city model. It makes it much easier to plan on a metropolitan scale. A regional municipality would probably work okay as well. It's doing pretty good for KWC, even though it's not perfect. The municipalities do compete against each other, but at least things of metropolitan importance are overlooked by the Region (such as education, transit, etc.). I think where you'd really have a problem is if the suburbs were both separate municipalities and separate regional municipalities, like the current Toronto model. In fact, I'm surprised that Miketoronto hasn't already posted his "the suburbs will steal your jobs" lecture already :haha: .

[ajldub]

What we need to do is roll Gatineau into the fold... then we've got a capital!

[Mille Sabords]

What we need to do is roll Gatineau into the fold... then we've got a capital!

Now you're talking! :tup: Except we'd have to wonder whether we'd all be called Gatineau... :cheers:

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Here's an Idea, create a Canadian version of the Australian Capital Territory(ACT).

[vid]

Call it Ottawa-Gatineau in English and Gatineau-Ottawa in French. I think they already do that but I'm not sure? And it would probably be a territory anyway, as it doesn't really need to carry provincial level responsibilities.

[Rathgrith]

Keep in mind the geographical size of a city is completely up to the province. And the province seems to do what they want to under Section 92.

As much as i would like to see a national territory/federal city-province, the chances of Quebec seeding land to the federal government seems completely... well it just won't happen.

[d_jeffrey]

Keep in mind the geographical size of a city is completely up to the province. And the province seems to do what they want to under Section 92.

As much as i would like to see a national territory/federal city-province, the chances of Quebec seeding land to the federal government seems completely... well it just won't happen.

MacKenzie King wanted a federal territory for the capital, but the Québec government didn't want to provide the land. Even without Québec, I would be interested to know if the government of Ontario would give up the region.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

How about we let les Gatinois speak forthemselves?

This is a free country after all...

[vid]

How about we let les Gatinois speak forthemselves?

This is a free country after all...

Most of it is..

[m0nkyman]

Borough-ize it. Mega city is a bad idea. Completely seperate cities create another problem. Find a reasonable middle ground...

Says the guy from Edmonton and Victoria who has seen the worst of both worlds....

[Mille Sabords]

Keep in mind the geographical size of a city is completely up to the province. And the province seems to do what they want to under Section 92.

As much as i would like to see a national territory/federal city-province, the chances of Quebec seeding land to the federal government seems completely... well it just won't happen.

Who says the National Capital territory would be under federal control? The feds are the most visible "anchor tenant" maybe, but we'd have a mayor and council running the show, make no mistake. No DC-like structure for me!

[miketoronto]

Ottawa was basically one city even before amalgmation, in the fact that the Region of Ottawa-Carlton had powers for most metropolitan wide services, as well as a large amount of planning. It was the Ottawa-Carlton municipality that had a "suburban mall ban" for many years. So there already was a lot of central planning going on even before amalgmation.

Just as in other areas that were merged, there will be some tension for the next couple years. But as people growing up now, grow up with the entire region known as one city, the old boundaries will fade and people will see it unified as one city.
All cities including the old city of Ottawa grew through annexation and amalgmation. And these latest amalgmations in Ontario are really no different.

Give it time.

One change though. The rural areas should be seperate. Ottawa and Hamilton should never have had farm towns merged in with big city government.

[Acajack]

Pigs will fly before Ottawa and Gatineau are joined together into one local government structure.

If one looks at any document (i.e. strategic plans, etc.) emanating from the City of Gatineau, the future-minded talk is all about forging a Gatineau identity that is more distinct from Ottawa’s, about reducing Gatineau’s dependence on Ottawa by establishing greater links with Montreal and the rest of Quebec, about shoring up the francophone and Québécois character of the city, etc.

Doesn’t sound to me like any of that is remotely compatible with making both sides of the river into a single city or a federal district.

Another stumbling block is that Quebec governments (PQ or Liberals, doesn’t matter) are dead-set against any land transfers to the federal government. Just ask the NCC, which has been trying for years to buy Quebec-owned woodlands that are logically contiguous to Gatineau Park, but to no avail.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Like it or not and no matter how much or how many people doth protest, Ottawa and Gatineau are intertwined and will influence each other. Toronto or Montreal won't change that.

[Acajack]

I agree with that 100%, but that doesn’t mean that any type of common governing structure across the river (beyond the current NCC) is likely to be put in place.

[harls]

.... about reducing Gatineau’s dependence on Ottawa by establishing greater links with Montreal and the rest of Quebec...


This is true.. look at the creation of autoroute 50. It exists because of politics, not because we need another 4-lane highway to Montreal.

it may sound silly, but a physical highway link from Quebec's largest city to Gatineau (on Quebec soil) would probably enforce the ties even more as you said (i.e. economic spinoffs, commercial traffic, developments etc.) Just my opinion.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

it may sound silly, but a physical highway link from Quebec's largest city to Gatineau (on Quebec soil) would probably enforce the ties even more as you said (i.e. economic spinoffs, commercial traffic, developments etc.)

How would that work? I'm a little confused here...

[harls]

I've read that industries wanting to set up shop in the outaouais are itching for a major highway link to Montreal, they are just waiting for the autoroute to be completed.

Think of the sheer number of cars with Quebec plates on them that travel to and from Montreal on a daily basis via the 417.. think of the pit stops they make at Tim Hortons in Casselman, the gas fill ups at Herb's, etc.. Now imagine if all of those cars were doing the same thing, only in Montebello or Lachute.

I make the trip to Montreal at least once a month, and I know that I'll be using the 50 instead of the 417 when it is open in 2010. Partly because it's more accessible (instead of crossing the river and following the maze of streets to get to the highway), and part of me wants to contribute to my province's economy by supporting Quebec businesses (whether it be gas pit stops, a coffee run at Tim Horton's, taking a piss in Lachute, etc).

I'm sure there are lot more Gatineau people that will probably do the same thing. My mother in law, for one, is afraid of using the 417 to come visit us from Quebec City because she is afraid of getting lost and having to converse with English people (she can't speak a word of English).. anyway, that's another story :D

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I've read that industries wanting to set up shop in the outaouais are itching for a major highway link to Montreal, they are just waiting for the autoroute to be completed.

Think of the sheer number of cars with Quebec plates on them that travel to and from Montreal on a daily basis via the 417.. think of the pit stops they make at Tim Hortons in Casselman, the gas fill ups at Herb's, etc.. Now imagine if all of those cars were doing the same thing, only in Montebello or Lachute.

I make the trip to Montreal at least once a month, and I know that I'll be using the 50 instead of the 417 when it is open in 2010. Partly because it's more accessible (instead of crossing the river and following the maze of streets to get to the highway), and part of me wants to contribute to my province's economy by supporting Quebec businesses (whether it be gas pit stops, a coffee run at Tim Horton's, taking a piss in Lachute, etc).

I'm sure there are lot more Gatineau people that will probably do the same thing. My mother in law, for one, is afraid of using the 417 to come visit us from Quebec City because she is afraid of getting lost and having to converse with English people (she can't speak a word of English).. anyway, that's another story :D

Ah, okay. Now I get it. I was also kinda hoping that by "industries" you meant major business firms or something. I frankly would love to see Gatineau become more of a "Big-City" and being more independent from Ottawa, but I also wouldn't mind keeping the English/French services between the two cities and making sure that the two are integrated/intertwined, but still unique in their own respects.

Since I split my time between Ottawa and Gatineau/Wakefield on varying weekends, having a Quebec-side Autoroute would also be beneficial to me(although my French isn't that good). Either way, I win. :D

[clynnog]

and part of me wants to contribute to my province's economy by supporting Quebec businesses (whether it be gas pit stops, a coffee run at Tim Horton's, taking a piss in Lachute, etc).

And how would taking a piss in Lachute contribute the economy of QC?

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

:previous: I'd say something to that, but it would more than likely get me in serious trouble... :haha:

[harls]

I suppose it wouldn't, unless the bathroom is for paying customers only :D

[gatt]

Gatineau is part of the capital region since 1969.it's the closest of a one city thing we gonna have.

[Rathgrith]

... Well I am going to move this discussion anyway from the geography of bladder functions by mentioning/arguing that Ottawa would be best set up as a Berlin style state in Germany. They have the same powers as the "provinces" (I'm not sure what the term is) in terms of taxation and representation.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I'd just like to see Ottawa, Gatineau and the NCC work very closely together when it comes to Transit, smart development, infrastructure, integration(in terms of things like smart cards, scheduling, services, etc.) and overall development.

I have no problem with Gatineau trying to be more self-sufficient and "doing their own thing", but we have to be smart about this. After all, all that seperates two major areas of a metropolis is 50m of water...

[harls]

I wonder how many people that live in Ottawa go their entire lives never visiting Gatineau and vice-versa? that would be interesting to know.

[Acajack]

People who have never once been across the river in their entire lives would be extremely rare. However, I should say that many, many people only cross once or twice a year, or every couple of years. This is particularly true of Ottawans, who have a reputation in Gatineau for only crossing the river in pursuit of the four S’s: sun, sand, suds and sex.

Gatineau residents tend to cross more for the simple fact that a higher percentage of them work across the river. Also, there is more “stuff” of interest for francophones in Ottawa (the market area, French theatre and shows at the NAC, cheaper gas, etc.) than there is for anglos in the Outaouais. (The four S’s nothwithstanding.)

I do however know many Gatinois who for nationalistic or linguistic reasons are proud to say they almost never go to Ottawa (except to drive through it on their way to Montreal). There is even a good number of Gatinois who work in downtown Ottawa that go there strictly for work only and will even prefer to cross over the bridge to Quebec for lunch.

Having lived on both sides, I am always astonished at how many long-time residents have very limited geographic knowledge of the other side of the river. When giving directions to my place to Ontarians (even francophones!), I often even have to guide them along streets in downtown Ottawa to get them to an interprovincial bridge. Telling them that I live “off such and such an exit off the 50” isn’t precise enough. And most of my neighbours in Gatineau have no idea, for example, where Beacon Hill and Barrhaven are, and that one is east and one is west.

When I was younger I dated for a short time a girl in her 20s who had lived her entire life in Ottawa but had never been to Montreal, which I found quite amazing.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I wonder how many people that live in Ottawa go their entire lives never visiting Gatineau and vice-versa? that would be interesting to know.

Most people I know go on average once or twice a month. In my case, since I have family and friends in Hull, Aylmer, Chelsea, Wakefield and Vintage Wings in Gatineau, I'm in Quebec on average once or twice a week.

And it's not always for the four S's. :haha:

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

This is particularly true of Ottawans, who have a reputation in Gatineau for only crossing the river in pursuit of the four S’s: sun, sand, suds and sex.

That's fairly true! :haha:

However, keep in mind, we also have the same ammenities on this side of the river. We can get sun, sand, sex and suds(albeit a year later) in Ottawa.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Having lived on both sides, I am always astonished at how many long-time residents have very limited geographic knowledge of the other side of the river. When giving directions to my place to Ontarians (even francophones!), I often even have to guide them along streets in downtown Ottawa to get them to an interprovincial bridge. Telling them that I live “off such and such an exit off the 50” isn’t precise enough. And most of my neighbours in Gatineau have no idea, for example, where Beacon Hill and Barrhaven are, and that one is east and one is west.

Wow. That is astonishing.

While I don't know the streets in either city like the back of my hand, I know pretty much all of the major routes and arterial roads in both cities with the exception of Gatineau proper. I think most people should at least know those.

Man, I can't believe that people don't know anything about a city that is right next to them! :rolleyes:

When I was younger I dated for a short time a girl in her 20s who had lived her entire life in Ottawa but had never been to Montreal, which I found quite amazing.

.................

Wow. :haha:

[harls]

Our situation is quite unique, I think. What other 'twin cities' share a river between them, a political boundary, AND two different languages? I can't really think of any..

Philadelphia/Camden, NY/Newark are two, but there is no language difference. Maybe some places like Brownsville TX and Matamoros, Mexico (but those are separate countries, not state/provincial borders..)

[Acajack]

I actually forgot a fifth S: ski!

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I actually forgot a fifth S: ski!

Now that is straight up true! :haha:

[Acajack]

Some Americans won’t be happy, but one could make the argument that Brownsville, Texas and Matamoros, Mexico are NOT separated by language, and that Spanish rules the roost on both sides of the Rio Grande (Rio Bravo del Norte)! The same might be said of Laredo, Texas and Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, and a whole bunch of other cities along the border.

However, at the western end of the border, San Diego is still (for now at least) pretty anglo, and it of course abuts the Mexican city of Tijuana.

There are many examples of two-language border urban areas in Europe. Strasbourg in France (which used to be German or perhaps Alsatian but now is completely French in daily usage) and Kehl in Germany is a prime example. Basel, in the German speaking part of Switzerland, has francophone suburbs in France. A quite large urbanized part of France also abuts southwestern Switzerland, but this is the francophone Geneva area so there’s no language difference.

There is also a trinational urban area further north with three languages (Dutch, French and German): Aachen (Aix-La-Chapelle to francophones) in Germany, Maastricht in the Netherlands and Liège in the French part of Belgium.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I just realised how waaaaaaay off topic we've gotten. This thread is supposed to be about whether or not Ottawa in the greenbelt should seperate from the burbs. :haha:

[harls]

Oh yeah, the topic! :D

I don't think so. Has there even been any referendum talk for the former cities? is there an interest in defusion? Masson-Angers is going to the polls to decide whether or not to separate from the Gatineau mega-city, I believe.

[clynnog]

I wonder how many people that live in Ottawa go their entire lives never visiting Gatineau and vice-versa? that would be interesting to know.

My next door neighbour (Kanata) is quite proud that he only ever goes downtown for Fete Caribe (he's from the islands).

In my case, I have a pretty good working knowledge of the main commercial and employment main street and some of the main residential thoroughfares in Aylmer, Hull, Chelsea and a limited knowledge of the Gatineau sector.

[clynnog]

When I was younger I dated for a short time a girl in her 20s who had lived her entire life in Ottawa but had never been to Montreal, which I found quite amazing.

I have a BIL who lives in SW Ontario (41 years old) and has never been on an airplane. He is middle class (he can afford the tickets), but due to his mothers fear of flying he has never considered it.

[Acajack]

Regarding defusions/demergers:

Contrary to Québec, Ontario has not been subjected to cynical electoral ploys that involve dangling dubious demerger promises in front of voters’ noses in the hopes that they will bite at the hook.

More seriously, there is a fairly active movement to demerge the rural areas from the big City of Ottawa that I believe is called the “Carleton County” movement. There’s never been any indication that Queen’s Park is taking them seriously however.

To my knowledge there isn’t any organized demerger movement in the suburbs like Kanata and Orleans. Most people I know who live in these places seem to now take it for granted that they are part of the City of Ottawa. (I’d venture to say a lot of people already considered their communities part of Ottawa even pre-merger.)

On Masson-Angers, I don’t think there is any type of vote planned there at this time. An appeal court of some kind is currently hearing the “défusionnistes” challenging of the voters’ list and process from the last (and only, so far) demerger referendum.

[jeremy_haak]

There's a link regarding the Carleton County idea on the Rural Council of Ottawa's website (http://www.ruralcouncil.ca/back_to_the_future-050708.htm). I for one think it makes sense. There's not a lot of sense in amalgamating a bunch of rural municipalities into the City of Ottawa which doesn't really have the expertise to deal with rural issues.

[BlackRedGold]

There's a link regarding the Carleton County idea on the Rural Council of Ottawa's website (http://www.ruralcouncil.ca/back_to_the_future-050708.htm). I for one think it makes sense. There's not a lot of sense in amalgamating a bunch of rural municipalities into the City of Ottawa which doesn't really have the expertise to deal with rural issues.

Wait until the developers turn rural municipalities into exurbs.

Notice how Wal-Mart is opening two of it's three new Supercenters in the region outside of the city of Ottawa?

If the rural places went their own way, they couldn't afford the legal battles to keep Wal-Mart out as the countryside turns into sprawl that will create increased congestion on Ottawa roads.

[Rathgrith]

Our situation is quite unique, I think. What other 'twin cities' share a river between them, a political boundary, AND two different languages? I can't really think of any..



Sault Ste Marie, Ontario/Michigan is a good example. Except for the language.

I really wish they would be more bridges, and ones not just for cars, but also transit bridges.

[clynnog]

Our situation is quite unique, I think. What other 'twin cities' share a river between them, a political boundary, AND two different languages? I can't really think of any..



Fitzroy Harbour, Ont/Quyon, QC or Hawkesbury, Ont./Grenville, QC spring to mind.

[BlackRedGold]

Our situation is quite unique, I think. What other 'twin cities' share a river between them, a political boundary, AND two different languages? I can't really think of any..

Marigot and Philipsburg.

[Acajack]

OK, we’re back onto the issue of border towns.

BTW, Hawkesbury-Grenville and Fitzroy Harbour-Quyon aren’t examples of different languages across a border. The main language is Hawkesbury-Grenville is French on both sides of the river, and in Fitzroy Harbour-Quyon it’s mostly English that dominates on the Quebec side of the river as well. (Although Quyon shares the municipality of Pontiac with Luskville, which is mainly French).

Interesting also, is the fact the Edmundston, New Brunswick and Madawaska, Maine are separated by an international border, but united by a common language which is, of course, French!

[Acajack]

Back on topic.

I think the original question was if the central city inside the Greenbelt could separate from the suburbs because of their lack of urban values.

First off, inner cities are always more difficult to mobilize politically that suburbs, because the former always have a higher proportion of renters and a more transient population. Either than on this forum, I’ve heard relatively few rumblings from Ottawa urbanites that they don’t want to be in the same city as the suburbs.

Maybe it’s because (though people often forget it) most of the City of Ottawa inside the Greenbelt has pretty much the same urban form as the suburbs. Think of Alta Vista, Rockcliffe Park, Beacon Hill, the areas around the Civic Hospital and Carlingwood, etc. Bottom line: the area inside the Greenbelt with suburban-style urban form is much much bigger than the areas like Centretown that resemble a traditional, old-style grid city.

The main difference between places like Alta Vista and Overbrook, for example, and the newer suburbs are that they are more advanced in their developmental evolution, i.e. they’re older.

For instance, St. Laurent Blvd. in its layout is very similar to the older areas around St. Joseph Blvd. in Orleans. The main difference is that St. Laurent is currently more dense because it has had more time to mature.

[clynnog]

OK, we’re back onto the issue of border towns.

BTW, Hawkesbury-Grenville and Fitzroy Harbour-Quyon aren’t examples of different languages across a border. The main language is Hawkesbury-Grenville is French on both sides of the river, and in Fitzroy Harbour-Quyon it’s mostly English that dominates on the Quebec side of the river as well. (Although Quyon shares the municipality of Pontiac with Luskville, which is mainly French).

Interesting also, is the fact the Edmundston, New Brunswick and Madawaska, Maine are separated by an international border, but united by a common language which is, of course, French!

I was the poster who suggested 'awkesbury/Grenville and F.Harbour/Quyon. Technically the Ontario towns are within a province that is primarily english speaking and the Quebec towns are within a province that is primarily french speaking. I believe that Quyon probably has a higher % of anglos than Hawkesbury has, and vice versa. I believe that 'awkesbury is 90% francaphone, but every person I have met there can speak/read/write in english to quite a high standard. In fact, I made a presentation at Hawkesbury City Council in english, the chairman asked the audience if they wanted a french translation and there was no need to do it.

I've been to Edmunston (which I believe is 90% francophone), but in all honesty the % of people in Aroostook County, ME who use french on a daily basis is low. They may have french surnames but essential services, schooling, commerce etc, in french is a stretch I would think.

[Acajack]

I was actually stretching things a bit just for fun, although Aroostook County in Maine (that you referred to) is huge and includes the cities of Presque Isle and Caribou where much of the population is of francophone descent but almost no one speaks French it is true.

But in the extreme northern part of the county, particularly around the town of Madawaska that I mentioned, the French language, though bastardized and apparently rapidly declining in use, is remarkably present. On my last visit there just a few years ago, I was spoken to in French spontaneously by the U.S. border guard on the bridge from New Brunswick and by a gas station attendant. I also ate in a restaurant in a nearby small town where I spoke to the staff in English (we were obviously not locals so we were greeted in English when we came in) until I realized that we were the only ones in the entire jam-packed place not using French. To top it all off, the place had live entertainment with a guy who would alternate his banter between English and French and sang a mix of Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Paul Anka along with songs by Michel Louvain, Ginette Reno and Gerry Boulet (Quebec singers most people on this forum have probably never even heard of).

When we left, I checked out the plates in the parking lot and ours was the only non-Maine vehicle that I could find, which rules out francophone New Brunswickers crossing the border for a good time.

Don’t know how long French will hold up in this area, but the current situation at least is certainly striking when compared to that of certain francophone communities in Canadian that supposedly benefit from our official languages policies.

[clynnog]

I was actually stretching things a bit just for fun, although Aroostook County in Maine (that you referred to) is huge and includes the cities of Presque Isle and Caribou where much of the population is of francophone descent but almost no one speaks French it is true.

But in the extreme northern part of the county, particularly around the town of Madawaska that I mentioned, the French language, though bastardized and apparently rapidly declining in use, is remarkably present. On my last visit there just a few years ago, I was spoken to in French spontaneously by the U.S. border guard on the bridge from New Brunswick and by a gas station attendant. I also ate in a restaurant in a nearby small town where I spoke to the staff in English (we were obviously not locals so we were greeted in English when we came in) until I realized that we were the only ones in the entire jam-packed place not using French.


I stand corrected...I always thought that french in northern ME was an illusion. My MIL is from Perth Andover NB and that is near Fort Fairfield, ME. I've never heard french spoken in that part of ME, but it may be used a bit further north. If you recall a few years ago a fellow from QC, went across the quasi border at Estcourt Stn ME and got gas w/o going through customs. He couldn't speak any english and I don't believe that officials from the US customs or the US feds were able to help him that way.

The border btwn ME and NB is very porous (especially where it is a land border) in terms of cross border traffic and many people have friends/family 'over the line'. Since 9/11 I believe this has curtailed a bit.

[Acajack]

There is even a binational pulp and paper operation between Madawaska and Edmundston that has numerous large pipes carrying stuff across the border (Saint John River).

On the language front, French will most likely be gone even from the northernmost parts of Aroostook County within a couple of generations, but for the moment it’s still got a presence there.

[d_jeffrey]

There is even a binational pulp and paper operation between Madawaska and Edmundston that has numerous large pipes carrying stuff across the border (Saint John River).

On the language front, French will most likely be gone even from the northernmost parts of Aroostook County within a couple of generations, but for the moment it’s still got a presence there.

Presence is the right word, I'm from there, no teenagers speak French in Madawaska...

[Acajack]

Indeed. The people I met in extreme northern Maine who were my age (in their 30s) all told me, in French, that the young people in the area generally didn’t speak French anymore.

I wonder why this change has happened only fairly recently? Francophones in this or any other part of the state of Maine, whether they’re in their teens, 20s, 30s 60s or 80s, have never had access to French schools at any time in history. Yet most adults in the Madawaska region still speak French today*. So why this sudden decline among young people now?

*According to the United States Bureau of the Census, 83.4% of the population of the town of Madawaska speaks French as a home language.

[Cre47]

Looks like the NCC are plannig a Country-Wide consultation on the Greenbelt's future.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ada3bc62-6729-4c4d-ba35-ee67041e4f65&k=95661

[clynnog]

Looks like the NCC are plannig a Country-Wide consultation on the Greenbelt's future.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ada3bc62-6729-4c4d-ba35-ee67041e4f65&k=95661

I believe that the RFP for the Greenbelt Master Plan will be is has been posted on MERX.