[waterloowarrior]

Bay Street
249-259 Bay St. - Proposed (application on hold)
16 storey residential tower
Developer: Richcraft
Location: 249-259 Bay St.
Web: http://www.yourfuturecommunity.com/baystreet.htm


Rendering: Not available

http://www.yourfuturecommunity.com/images/map-baystreet.gif

Picture by harls
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1137/1053030874_859e842829_b.jpg



Not too much info yet, but always good to see another downtown residential development

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Hopefully it will make a positive impact on the skyline.

[cityguy]

I can't see a 16 storey building at that location having much of an impact on the skyline.

[harls]

^ me neither. it's got to be at least 30 storeys to have any impact.

[waterloowarrior]

Richcraft has applied for demolition permits for buildings on the site, but apparantly the 16 storey building is 'on hold' b/c of market conditions
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2007/11-13/ACS2007-PTE-APR-0189.htm



The subject properties are located on the east side of Bay Street and the north side of Nepean Street, in the Centretown neighbourhood. The properties are developed with brick and vinyl dwellings, ranging in height from two to three storeys. The two-storey brick dwelling at 363 Nepean Street and the two-storey brick and vinyl sided building at 267 Bay Street do not form part of this application. The subject lands are surrounded by educational, commercial and residential uses.

The five buildings that are the subject of this application are unoccupied and have fallen into a state of disrepair. These vacant buildings have become a target for vandalism, trespassing, and loitering.

The purpose of this application is to demolish the buildings, and to remove the risk to public safety, pending the outcome of a Site Plan Control application of a 16-storey condominium building on the site. This application is currently "on hold" as a result of a change in market conditions.

[harls]

It's a shame those houses on Bay are abandoned. They're turn-of-the-century brick homes not unlike those found on other Centretown streets. How did they fall into such a state of disrepair?

Lyon street seems to be an imaginary barrier.. homes on the west side have this depressing skid-row kind of feel to them while to the east everything is expensive as hell. What gives?

[O-Town Hockey]

That's an interesting observation, I've noticed the same in the past. It's like that on all East-West streets downtown from Slater to Catherine. It's only a matter of time before the rest of Centretown rubs off on those areas so it would be smart to gobble up some property there soon. Some of those houses are just frustratingly ugly and they all seem to have disproportionately run-down front porches.

[rodionx]

It's a shame those houses on Bay are abandoned. They're turn-of-the-century brick homes not unlike those found on other Centretown streets. How did they fall into such a state of disrepair?

Lyon street seems to be an imaginary barrier.. homes on the west side have this depressing skid-row kind of feel to them while to the east everything is expensive as hell. What gives?

Those houses came to be abandoned because Richcraft bought them up in 2004 with the intention of building condos, and then put the project on hold indefinitely. One of them was a traveller's hostel and the others were rentals, I think. They've been empty for a long time now. I'll be happy to see a couple of those buildings go, but it's a pity about the others.

I own a house on Bay street myself, so I'm more than a little biased, but I never noticed any change in the nature of the neighbourhood east of Lyon. However, back when I rented an apartment by the canal, I used to notice that the areas west of Bank were distinctly less salubrious than those east. That was before all these infill townhouses started popping up. Anyway, I'd agree that it's a neighbourhood in development and relatively cheap for being so central. My relatives in B.C. were really surprised that I could afford to own property so close to Parliament. Another perk of the area is that you can rent out your parking spaces to office workers.

Now if they would just put a new library or gallery or museum on the Technical High School site, I'll be like this dancing banana here... :banana:

[cityguy]

I saw on cjoh-tv last week that a discision on the libary should be made in the next few weeks.

[rodionx]

I saw on cjoh-tv last week that a discision on the libary should be made in the next few weeks.

Cool. Thanks for the info. I thought they weren't going to make a decision until the spring. A public institution of some sort would really lift this side of Bank Street. Elgin and the Market have lots of good stuff already.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the Pinnacle on Lyon Street, which is practically around the corner from Richcraft's development, doesn't seem to be selling? It was finished nearly a year ago and they've been reduced to advertising on kijiji (http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-housing-housing-for-sale-Pinnacle-Condominiums-W0QQAdIdZ28177977). Wonder if that might be making Richcraft hesitate.

[harls]

Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the Pinnacle on Lyon Street, which is practically around the corner from Richcraft's development, doesn't seem to be selling? It was finished nearly a year ago and they've been reduced to advertising on kijiji (http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-housing-housing-for-sale-Pinnacle-Condominiums-W0QQAdIdZ28177977). Wonder if that might be making Richcraft hesitate.

really? I work kitty-corner from the Pinnacle, I thought for sure it'd sell out quick - it's not like it's that far from the action. Maybe being on the periphery of downtown is more psychological than anything.. Bank St, which is arguably "where the action is", is only two blocks to the east.

[Mille Sabords]

Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the Pinnacle on Lyon Street, which is practically around the corner from Richcraft's development, doesn't seem to be selling? It was finished nearly a year ago and they've been reduced to advertising on kijiji (http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-housing-housing-for-sale-Pinnacle-Condominiums-W0QQAdIdZ28177977). Wonder if that might be making Richcraft hesitate.

Actually, according to my sources they are comfortably sold (over 90%). The sales person in the kijiji ad might be doing some creative advertisement to close out the building, which has been on the market for quite a while and therefore has probably dropped out of most people's radar. That's probably the reason for those ads. I do notice that condo projects tend to have a bitch of a time closing out, though. The Montmartre, which is a brilliant little mixed-use infill on Dalhousie, has been stuck with one unsold unit since last spring. To say nothing of 1277 Wellington (Routeburn), also stuck with one unsold penthouse and that project was started about 5 years ago. The guys at Routeburn must be pretty steamed.

[rodionx]

So that explains it. It's a few fugly units that won't budge. I walk past there all the time, and I kept expecting the 'condo units for sale' sign to come down, month after month. When I saw that ad on kijiji I assumed they were truly screwed. People sell old tires on kijiji. Maybe it's a marketing issue. Even in this forum, that place never seemed to get much of a buzz going.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

:previous: Dude, that's because it's Claridge. :haha:

[O-Town Hockey]

So that explains it. It's a few fugly units that won't budge. I walk past there all the time, and I kept expecting the 'condo units for sale' sign to come down, month after month. When I saw that ad on kijiji I assumed they were truly screwed. People sell old tires on kijiji. Maybe it's a marketing issue. Even in this forum, that place never seemed to get much of a buzz going.

It may be because of the Pinnacle's proximaty to The Glue Pot Pub and arguably the most unsightly parking lot in the CBD. That lot needs to be develped before the areas West of Lyon can really take off.

[rodionx]

It may be because of the Pinnacle's proximaty to The Glue Pot Pub and arguably the most unsightly parking lot in the CBD. That lot needs to be develped before the areas West of Lyon can really take off.

The Glue Pot sure is lonely at the end of that parking lot. It's been like that for ages. Strange that no one wants to build anything there. Good spot for a subway station, though.

[Deez]

It may be because of the Pinnacle's proximaty to The Glue Pot Pub and arguably the most unsightly parking lot in the CBD. That lot needs to be develped before the areas West of Lyon can really take off.

I've been hoping to see a development notice for that lot ever since I joined this forum. Not only is the lot itself unslightly, but a sizeable tower at that location would do a lot to block the ugliness of Place de Ville III from some western vantage points. I wonder who owns it/what's holding them back from doing anything with it...

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

:previous: The parking lot I believe is owned by a parking lot company, so they have no interest in a nice new tower going up there. It's the perfect spot for a 40-45 storey signature tower...

[harls]

as long as they don't touch Barbarella's, I'll be okay.

[rodionx]

There's a brief update on this property in the Centretown Buzz: city staff are going to recommend demolishing the buildings at the site, after which Richcraft will have five years (!) to think of something to put there. Apparently they bought the buildings in 2002 and not 2004 as I'd thought. That's a long time to be growing weeds.

There's another article in the Buzz about five abandoned and recently demolished houses on Cambridge street in Chinatown. It's a similar case - a developer bought up a group of residential properties with big plans for developing them, then dropped the plans and inexplicably held onto the property, leaving the buildings to rot. Here's the article (http://www.centretown.net/news_detail.php?news_id=225). What are the taxes on a vacant lot, anyway? They must be low.

[Mille Sabords]

as long as they don't touch Barbarella's, I'll be okay.

:D :D One of the last ones. Remember how many more there used to be and they all went down, either thanks to the city's puritan by-laws or other "accidental" reasons? ie. Valentino's on Somerset; the Raceway in the Market, Lido in Hull...

[O-Town Hockey]

A couple of my buddies were at Club Pigale on the weekend sitting the VIP section and Bon Jovi in their entirety were sitting at the table next to them! I'm not a big fan of strip clubs, but that would have been amazing.

[Mille Sabords]

A couple of my buddies were at Club Pigale on the weekend sitting the VIP section and Bon Jovi in their entirety were sitting at the table next to them! I'm not a big fan of strip clubs, but that would have been amazing.

That is quite the story! I'm not a regular of strip joints nor a fan of Bon Jovi but I understand their choice, Pigale tends to have nicer looking girls. No matter what happens in Ottawa, including the big-box strip joint off of St-Laurent (which I only went once) - there is always a clear distinction between quantity and quality. :D

[Cre47]

Council had approved the demolition of those homes in that area.

[rodionx]

Regarding Harls' post in the rumours thread about Richcraft's application for variance at the Bay/Gloucester site...

I called the number on the sign, and the guy I spoke to said that Richcraft is asking for a height limit increase of something like three metres. The building will remain 16 stories, but they want to make the ceilings higher. Richcraft filed a plan in April. The entrance and exit to the underground parking will be on Gloucester, while the pedestrian entrance will be on Bay.

So maybe they're actually going to build it this time. We shall see...

[harls]

^ When you called, did you find out if they had any renderings of the project? I checked their website, but it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while. I hope it looks a bit better than the Galleria project they're currently completing.

[rodionx]

^ When you called, did you find out if they had any renderings of the project? I checked their website, but it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while. I hope it looks a bit better than the Galleria project they're currently completing.

I didn't ask, but the guy on the phone didn't mention one. It sounded like he was referring to a site plan only. Richcraft shelved the project after getting city approval back in 2003, so they may be tweaking the zoning for what is essentially banked land. Or not. A rendering would be nice.

Interestingly, there's another chunk of land suitable for a 14+ storey building up for sale a half block away at Gloucester and Lyon. Yours for $3.2 million (http://www.ottawahomeseller.com/Ottawa/Ontario/Commercial_Real_Estate/Centretown/Agent/Listing_1668275.html).

[c_speed3108]

I didn't ask, but the guy on the phone didn't mention one. It sounded like he was referring to a site plan only. Richcraft shelved the project after getting city approval back in 2003, so they may be tweaking the zoning for what is essentially banked land. Or not. A rendering would be nice.

Interestingly, there's another chunk of land suitable for a 14+ storey building up for sale a half block away at Gloucester and Lyon. Yours for $3.2 million (http://www.ottawahomeseller.com/Ottawa/Ontario/Commercial_Real_Estate/Centretown/Agent/Listing_1668275.html).

Wow that's takes the wind out of the argument that land costs are what makes condos so expensive doesn't it???

A 15,000 Square foot lot.

Lets say we building on 12,000 of that and on each floor of the building there is about 10,000 sq ft of apartment space.

At 14 floors we end up with 140,000 sq ft of space to sell.

$3,180,000 / 140000 = a little less than $23/sq.ft. for the land.

[Mille Sabords]

Wow that's takes the wind out of the argument that land costs are what makes condos so expensive doesn't it???

A 15,000 Square foot lot.

Lets say we building on 12,000 of that and on each floor of the building there is about 10,000 sq ft of apartment space.

At 14 floors we end up with 140,000 sq ft of space to sell.

$3,180,000 / 140000 = a little less than $23/sq.ft. for the land.

That's not quite how you'd cost it... $3.2 million divided by 15,000 sq.ft. (using your data) is $213/sq.ft. of raw land. That's an expensive piece of property, especially since you also have to pay for demolitions. And that's also why it's listed with a broker - they are testing the waters but I doubt anyone will bite at that price. If it were a good deal, it would've been sold privately.

[c_speed3108]

That's not quite how you'd cost it... $3.2 million divided by 15,000 sq.ft. (using your data) is $213/sq.ft. of raw land. That's an expensive piece of property, especially since you also have to pay for demolitions. And that's also why it's listed with a broker - they are testing the waters but I doubt anyone will bite at that price. If it were a good deal, it would've been sold privately.

There is some demolition cost. I have not included that. What my point was that with high rise buildings, the land cost does not justify (significantly) higher prices for units. When units costs are north of $300 a square foot the land cost (on a 14 story building) is fairly low.

I have no idea if that is a good price or not for that land. What I am saying is that certainly someone could buy it at that price so it is a upper bound on land cost downtown.

[Mille Sabords]

There is some demolition cost. I have not included that. What my point was that with high rise buildings, the land cost does not justify (significantly) higher prices for units. When units costs are north of $300 a square foot the land cost (on a 14 story building) is fairly low.

I have no idea if that is a good price or not for that land. What I am saying is that certainly someone could buy it at that price so it is a upper bound on land cost downtown.

In a normal market, land cost is a residual. You assess how many gross and net sellable feet you can build, how much it costs you to build, how much you can sell for, and then your land price is a percentage of your total sales which you and your friendly banker decide is appropriate.

With construction costs climbing nonstop and land owners like this one getting ever hungrier, the question is how much can you sell a condo square foot. We are getting to some upper limits in this market, which is not as frothy as Toronto's or Vancouver's. That's why in my opinion, that price is too high.

[rodionx]

Interesting to browse those commercial listings. Someone is trying to sell a six unit rental building in Chinatown for one million (http://www.2ontario.com/orea/listingdetails.asp?propertytype_id=INVS&searchby=city&city=OTTAWA&comprorcode=&mun_name=&mapcode=&refnum=OTT699916&textid=) dollars. :D

Yellow stripes painted all over the Richcraft site, right on the dirt in places. I do believe those represent natural gas lines. Maybe getting ready for demolition.

[Mille Sabords]

Interesting to browse those commercial listings. Someone is trying to sell a six unit rental building in Chinatown for one million (http://www.2ontario.com/orea/listingdetails.asp?propertytype_id=INVS&searchby=city&city=OTTAWA&comprorcode=&mun_name=&mapcode=&refnum=OTT699916&textid=) dollars. :D

Another sign of tire-kicking some upper limits by a hungry owner (this one is a flipper- that property was previously a famous baseball bat factory... some of the apartments must be loft-style and pretty big if they are using the old fabrication space). Still, in this neighbourhood, at $167,000 a door based on projected income (not even signed leases!), you gotta be stretching...

[c_speed3108]

Another sign of tire-kicking some upper limits by a hungry owner (this one is a flipper- that property was previously a famous baseball bat factory... some of the apartments must be loft-style and pretty big if they are using the old fabrication space). Still, in this neighbourhood, at $167,000 a door based on projected income (not even signed leases!), you gotta be stretching...


Wow that price is very high!!! My understanding was rentals generally go for less than 100...depending on quality.

[rodionx]

Wow that price is very high!!! My understanding was rentals generally go for less than 100...depending on quality.

That was the other thing that didn't make sense. If you're going to go to all the trouble of converting the space into residential units, why make them rentals? The Pawn da Rosa site is about the same size and in the same neighbourhood, and the six townhouses they'll build there will go for, what, $200 to $300K each? Easy million right there.

[waterloowarrior]

at tomorrow's CofA, as mentioned earlier

Applications for Minor Variances, for the proposed development of this property, were considered by the Committee both in 2003 & 2005. The Owner has revised its proposal and wants to demolish the existing buildings located on the property and construct a new 16-styorey, 215 unit residential condominium building with 4 levels of underground parking, as shown on plans filed with the Committee.


In order to proceed, the Owner requires the Authority of the Committee for Minor Variances from the Zoning Bylaw as follows:
(a) To permit an increase in building height to 48.05 metres, whereas the By-law permits a maximum height of 36.6 metres.
(b) To permit a reduced easterly side yard of 5.0 metres the first 21 metres in from both Nepean and
Gloucester Streets, whereas the By-law requires a minimum side yard of 7.5 metres beyond the first 21
metres.
For By-law purposes, Gloucester Street is deemed to be the frontage for this property.

[waterloowarrior]

appealed to the OMB (http://www.omb.gov.on.ca/ecs/CaseDetail.aspx?n=PL081028)

[m0nkyman]

does anything in this city not get appealed to the OMB?

[citizen j]

does anything in this city not get appealed to the OMB?

An article in the Ottawa Business Journal comes in handy in answering your question. It seems 26% of "in-fill" development proposals end up at the OMB.

http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/310568539718778.php

[Mille Sabords]

An article in the Ottawa Business Journal comes in handy in answering your question. It seems 26% of "in-fill" development proposals end up at the OMB.

http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/310568539718778.php

I saw that. Which means that almost three quarters do not.

[citizen j]

I saw that. Which means that almost three quarters do not.

So, you're saying the cup is 3/4 full?

[Mille Sabords]

So, you're saying the cup is 3/4 full?

:cheers: I'd sooner have a beer mug that's three-quarters full, than a quarter empty.

[harls]

Richcraft's website is currently offline, there's a message saying they will be launching a new one October 3 (tomorrow). I wonder if it will include a sneak peak at the condo they're developing for this site.

I went by there yesterday and the lot looked like it had less trees, and a bit more cleaned up. Maybe it was just my imagination, though.

[waterloowarrior]

appealed to the OMB (http://www.omb.gov.on.ca/ecs/CaseDetail.aspx?n=PL081028)

the omb file online is closed and the hearings cancelled; I guess the appeal was dropped/settled

[waterloowarrior]

Richcraft has the status of this project on their website ('application')
http://www.richcraft.com/255bay.htm

http://www.richcraft.com/images/intheworks/255bay/background.gif


Location Somerset Ward
Floors 15
Unit Types condominium suites
Proposed No. of Units 204
Date Available To be determined

Overview The proposed condominium at 255 Bay Street is located at the corner of Nepean, Bay and Gloucester Street, fronting Bay Street in downtown Ottawa.

Current Status 255 Bay Street is at the application stage.

[harls]

I'm going to change the title of this thread to reflect what they have on that plan - 15 fl, 74.7m.

..or am I reading that right, because Mondrian is also 73 m but it has 10 more floors? :???: I'll wait until someone can confirm.

[Norman Bates]

I'm going to change the title of this thread to reflect what they have on that plan - 15 fl, 74.7m.

..or am I reading that right, because Mondrian is also 73 m but it has 10 more floors? :???: I'll wait until someone can confirm.Could that be 74.7 metres above sea level?

[rodionx]

Transcription error? Wasn't the height supposed to be something like 47.7?

Then again, the total number of units seems to be on the high side as well.

[jeremy_haak]

What does FFS mean in that context? For further study? 75m would suggest floor heights more typical in an office building than an apartment building. 50 would be more in line with a residential building.

[harls]

Could that be 74.7 metres above sea level?

You're right. I just zoomed in on the site with Google earth and it gives the elevation as 74 m. Thanks.. and welcome to the forum too, by the way!


What does FFS mean in that context?

Jeremy, I have seen FFS as shorthand meaning "for f*ck sakes", but I don't think that's what they were going for here :laugh:

[jeremy_haak]

Jeremy, I have seen FFS as shorthand meaning "for f*ck sakes", but I don't think that's what they were going for here :laugh:

I figured that it was improbably that they would find the need to use that particular meaning in a site plan. Who knows though, maybe the drafter was a bit short tempered that day? :shrug:

[firestorm02]

FFS = First Floor Slab
74.7m = Ground floor slab elevation based on the geodetic datum (WGS 84)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System

[jeremy_haak]

Cool, thanks. Even Google didn't answer that one for me.

[rodionx]

This is kind of a non-update update, but a backhoe was onsite this week and tore down an addition at the back of one of the abandoned buildings. It wasn't necessarily the start of demolition, though, as the roof over the addition had collapsed and there was probably a safety issue there. The backhoe has been parked for several days now. Richcraft also put up a sign telling people not to dump stuff there. I'll give it 48 hours before it's completely covered in graffiti.

I called the city guy responsible for this file and he said that Richcraft has approval to tear down these buildings any time it wants, but the timing is up to them. And that's about where we were last time. I wonder what calculations must be going on at Richcraft HQ.