[Dmajackson]

Here's an interesting bit of information I found out this morning;

THERE IS NO BUS SERVICE BETWEEN BEDFORD AND DARTMOUTH ON WEEKENDS (AND HOLIDAYS)!!! :hell:

[halifaxboyns]

Here's an interesting bit of information I found out this morning;

THERE IS NO BUS SERVICE BETWEEN BEDFORD AND DARTMOUTH ON WEEKENDS (AND HOLIDAYS)!!! :hell:

I find that really strange!? Doesn't the 66 run between Bedford and Dartmouth on weekends?

[Dmajackson]

I find that really strange!? Doesn't the 66 run between Bedford and Dartmouth on weekends?

The 66 only runs between Highfield and Gaston Road on weekends.

There are only two buses that run in Bedford on the weekends; the 80 (half hour frequency), and the 88 (one hour frequency). So in easy terms in Bedford on weekends one can only go to Downtown (via Bfd Hwy/Bayers Road) and the Cobequid and Sackville Terminals.

This would, to a limited extent, explain the absurd traffic problems Bedford has on weekends. With pratically no transit service and few cabs available the only choice for getting around (to distant places) is personal vehicle. Along with Bedford being a popular weekend drive destination, traffic gets as bad in the daytime on weekends as it does in the evening on weekdays.

Being me, I sent Metro Transit a lengthy emailing detailing the problem and two possible solutions (extended 66 hours and rerouting 87). Either solution would be adequate for now and I mentioned service needs to be improved in all of Bedford but of course I will get a response back satating Bedford is still getting the fast ferry and train projects even though both have been stalled by MT movements.

[Jonovision]

Bus terminal plans take detour
Original project may be too costly, council to debate cash-saving changes
By CLARE MELLOR Staff Reporter
Wed, Jan 12 - 4:53 AM

Some Halifax regional councillors were upset Tuesday to hear that proposed changes to the multimillion-dollar expansion plans for the Dartmouth bus terminal have been put forward without consulting the public.

"This is a fundamental change," Coun. Jim Smith (Albro Lake- Harbourview) said at a meeting of committee of the whole, referring to the contentious project.

"This needs to go to a public meeting. It is like the (Halifax Central) library coming in a little bit over budget and then changing the whole scope of it, and then saying, ‘I’m just going to go with it.’ "

Eddie Robar, Metro Transit’s manager of planning and development, told committee of the whole that tender prices for the project issued in September came in at about $12.1 million, including taxes. The project was originally estimated to cost about $9.5 million.

In order to keep to the original budget, project consultants are being asked to modify the tender documents to remove a costly pedestrian bridge and elevate the main terminal structure, Robar said.

"Council’s direction to staff was to not exceed our budget for this terminal itself, so in that vein, we re-scoped the project," he said.

"(The overpass) is a huge cost to us that now will be removed. Now that we don’t have the overpass, we are able to elevate the terminal by about five feet, which gives us a lot less excavation costs."

Staff planned to present a revised plan to the two companies that bid on the project — Pomerleau and Dexter Construction — so they can revise their tenders.

Staff then planned to return to Halifax regional council in mid to late March with a recommendation on awarding the contract. Construction on what is Metro Transit’s busiest bus terminal was scheduled to start in late April.

However, after a heated discussion about the issue Tuesday, councillors voted to review the original plan for the terminal expansion and the revised plan at a meeting on Feb. 1 before deciding how to proceed.

In June, a lengthy public hearing and council debate took place before council voted to authorize land amendments so the expansion could go ahead.

The project is part of Metro Transit’s five-year plan, a blueprint that includes a number of new bus terminals throughout the municipality.

Some Dartmouth residents did not want an expanded terminal due to emissions and concerns about land use. The project also requires the removal of an urban forest between the Dartmouth Sportsplex and Dartmouth High School. However, 189 trees will be planted on the terminal site between Nantucket Avenue and Thistle Street.

Robar said that municipal staff met with the province, Dartmouth Sportsplex officials and Halifax regional school board officials about its revised plan and has received positive feedback.

However, Smith — one of three council members who voted against the terminal expansion — questioned that. He said he is a member of the Dartmouth Sportsplex board and did not even hear of the proposed project changes.

"I’m concerned about the process. . . . If we are going to put a terminal there, it has got to address the concerns of the residents and the people that approved (it)."

Coun. Gloria McCluskey (Dartmouth Centre) agreed.

"People bought it because of the design," McCluskey said.

"We had public hearings putting forward this plan. Now this plan has changed."

Coun. Tim Outhit (Bedford) put forward a motion Tuesday that council vote on a plan and how much it will spend on the terminal, but that motion was rejected.

"Let’s make a decision," Outhit said.

"We can wait and drag it out another month while we have (bus) drivers . . . that have nowhere to go to the washroom."

( cmellor@herald.ca)

[Wishblade]

I use the sportsplex terminal every day and its a hellhole. This shelter cant come soon enough and the fact this is dragging on so long is starting to get on my nerves. I think about it every day Im out there in the elements. I understand the importance of keeping costs down but there must be a way to get this done faster.

I also find it funny that Mr. Outhit mentions theres no place for bus drivers to use the washroom and says nothing about the passengers...

[halifaxboyns]

So this afternoon I attended an interesting information session that Calgary Transit put on. It was working with a group called CUP from Toronto (i'm affraid I didn't write down their name) - but they are working with Calgary transit to come up with a gondolla style transit system for Calgary.

Apparently there are a number of really well built and well used gondolla transit systems in the world - one being the people mover at the Toronto Airport, another being in Las Vegas. There is also the famous one in New York and Portland; but he explained how a lot of places like Carackas and many other latin countries are using them for extended distances like a regular transit system because the grades are too much for rail based system.

It got me thinking - what an interesting idea for HRM!

[Jstaleness]

I would be in total support of this. Halifax certainly has the slope that's needed to make one of these things usable. Was there any cost comparisons between this system and rail?

[planarchy]

It was working with a group called CUP from Toronto (i'm affraid I didn't write down their name) - but they are working with Calgary transit to come up with a gondolla style transit system for Calgary.


http://gondolaproject.com/

[halifaxboyns]

http://gondolaproject.com/

Perfect! This was them.
The peg a demonstration project running from Brentwood Station, to University of Calgary, the Children's Hospital and Foothills (and possibly stopping at Market Mall) at 30 million including cars and stations. If my notes are right, that's between 2.7 and 3.5 km of system; depending on routing. It would route back into the LRT at either Banff Trail or Lion's Park.

To put that into context - $30 million is what is being spent on every new downtown LRT station. So you'd get two or more terminals, plus the supports and cars, for one LRT station.

[Jonovision]

Public gets say on new bus terminal


By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE

City Hall Reporter

A proposed bus terminal replace­ment near the Dartmouth Sports­plex will be the subject of a pub­lic meeting early next month, Halifax regional council decided Tuesday.

The planned Metro Transit project is to go to a Harbour East community council session Feb. 3, where two options for the development will be presented.

One option is a proposal with a pedestrian overpass connecting the Dartmouth Commons and a new bus terminal. That scenario would cost more than $12 mil­lion, council heard.

The other is a less ambitious plan, without the foot bridge and other amenities, which will cost taxpayers considerably less.

Originally, the proposed bus depot was to cost around $9.5 million, but tender bids that came to Halifax Regional Munici­pality were about $3 million over budget.

Regional council has not re­jected the $9.5-million plan; the issue will likely come back to Halifax council Feb. 8.

Council appeared to unofficial­ly endorse the cheaper version of the two options. That prompted a couple of councillors to ask why the issue will be sent to a public meeting if city hall is only con­sidering one option.

But council heard community consultation is still valuable at this stage because the proposed project can be tweaked or scaled down.

Every project handled by city hall should be closely examined for potential cost savings, Coun.

Jackie Barkhouse (Woodside­Eastern Passage) told her col­leagues.

She said such scrutiny, after a consultant’s report has been filed and before council’s consid­eration of a project, would per­haps help purge a proposal of unnecessary — and expensive — components.

The municipality intends to reissue its tender for the Metro Transit project once regional council selects the preferred option.

“The final cost will not be known until revised tender bids are received," says a city staff report.

In other business, regional council authorized a $20,000 payout to settle a legal claim against the city. The out-of-court settlement was approved during a closed-door session Tuesday and ratified at council’s public meeting.

It stemmed from an undis­closed incident in January 2007 that’s the subject of a confiden­tial municipal staff report that won’t be released.

(mlightstone@herald.ca)

[JET]

Sounds reasonable. If HRM is willing to shell out millions for a tunnel in Bayers Lake, might not be unreasonbale to fund the original plan for this site.

[halifaxboyns]

My concern with too much public input is that you'll get the people out that didn't like the project - who will bog down the process. Hopefully someone will make it clear that the discussion is about the two options only.

[Dmajackson]

There's a million things I could post in response to this but I'll give fellow forumers a couple of days to digest the bombardment of information first. All of this data is about the three potential express transit projects for the Halifax-Bedford corridor.

http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110201cow4.pdf

http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110201cow3.pdf

[halifaxboyns]

I just did a quick read over both reports - very very interesting. I was impressed that the travel times for rail were pretty stable and that they had done the work to show that although a BRT would work now; if the road capacity isn't expanded it will become slower.

I'm also glad that they incorporated the shuttle service in the travel times for all of the services, although why they have a parking lot at Hammonds Plains I'm still a little confused about. Why not just put it at the Ferry/Rail terminal versus the 4 pad? I was a little disappointed that the rail/ferry section didn't talk about the Bedford Infill project though - that's lacking. Also the map with the route is wrong since the rail line isn't being extended to Hammond's Plains and a Ferry can't travel from the Waterfront Terminal to Scotia Square. :) But that's nit picking.

It's a very interesting discussion paper though. Once this gets published in the Herald, I'm sure Bruce Devanne will be all over it - it costs too much, no one will use it, waste of time.

Oh - I had no idea the 'narrows' extended as far as it did on their map. I thought it was mainly by the McKay?

[Jstaleness]

I had a whole page of a drafted responses to both files. I got too wordy and couldn't seem to make a point. This is as good as it's going to get as I have a cold and no coffee yet this morning.

Basically I'm glad to see the cost of rail is way less then I had thought it might be but it just can't compete with the lower costs of the BRT lines. Bedford as a whole needs BRT now. A line to downtown and a line into Burnside. Buses are going to run at a higher frequency than a train would. That means less waiting for the rider and more chance that they would switch from their car. A dedicated bus lane on some of the major arteries is something I hope this city can someday implement to encourage this even further. The Bedford Hwy would be my first choice but it's already so jammed that adding the bike lanes were tough enough. The buses also go direct to Duke and Barrington, something the train or ferry cannot do.
As far as the Ferry. I wonder what amount of people will bus in from Hammonds Plains to then wait and board a ferry? Depending on what infrastructure can be updated it might be quicker for that bus just go continue downtown via the 102 or Bedford Hwy.
Ughhh, I can't seem to make sence of what I just typed but I'm hitting submit anyway.

[q12]

When is the airport service suppose to start? Is it this year 2011 or 2012?

[hfx_chris]

I'm reading doc #2 now (gotta get a cup of coffee first before I settle in with that one!) - but I do have a response to doc #1.

I gotta say I'm pleased that HRM has limited the scope of their report to Windsor Junction for rail service. I think currently it just doesn't make sense to go beyond there, except possibly service to the Beaver Bank area.
But, I'm disappointed HRM is still thinking of this as a regional/commuter rail using large RDC cars and infrequent stops. I would much rather see smaller (and faster) passenger trains and more frequent stops.

[someone123]

They could create a service with frequent stops along densely populated stretches of the Bedford Highway and then only a couple out in Fall River.

I also suspect that their methodology for calculating ridership projections is horribly flawed and that those are serious undercounts. If it were a good service worth implementing it could attract lots of people with Park-and-Rides and so on. It would also create more potential for TOD around stations.

With a few minor exceptions it feels like transportation planning and solutions for the HRM come from 1982 or so.

[halifaxboyns]

They could create a service with frequent stops along densely populated stretches of the Bedford Highway and then only a couple out in Fall River.

I also suspect that their methodology for calculating ridership projections is horribly flawed and that those are serious undercounts. If it were a good service worth implementing it could attract lots of people with Park-and-Rides and so on. It would also create more potential for TOD around stations.

With a few minor exceptions it feels like transportation planning and solutions for the HRM come from 1982 or so.

I had another look through these and I have to agree - the counts seemed really low. I think I caught onto that the first time but thought perhaps I had mis-read it. I think keeping it to the Truro corridor is logical, but that Windsor shouldn't be excluded - it could easily become a bedroom community to Halifax (I'm surprised it's not right now).

Hfx_chris - I don't really see how having frequent stops would really make the service workable in terms of competing with the car. That's really the only way people would make the switch; if rail or ferry or bus is faster than driving. So if you add more stops, that adds more time. Plus other than Birch Cove, I don't really see any need for any more stops except maybe one for MSVU at Rockingham. But even still, that could be easily serviced with bus.

Jstaneless - I have to share your question about how many would bus into a ferry terminal from the 4 pad park and ride lot. That doesn't seem to make sense to me - wouldn't it be better to have them just drive right to the ferry/rail/bus stop at Mill Cove? That seems more logical to me. The other thing for me is your comment about bus only lanes. While I think it's a great idea on paper (or online) - getting it done is going to be hugely expensive. Take the Bedford Highway for example - there are some areas where there is very little room (if any) on either side to expropriate land to expand to add a bus only lane. You'd end up having to buy whole properties and knock down buildings - which can be very pricey. But, if the city is willing to spend that money and is prepared for the political heat they may encounter (from people unwilling to sell land) - then I'm all in favour. It might be easier to do it on the 102; but then again you end up having to deal with the province, which could be problematic too (depending on their plans with the highway).

[Dmajackson]

I had another look through these and I have to agree - the counts seemed really low. I think I caught onto that the first time but thought perhaps I had mis-read it. I think keeping it to the Truro corridor is logical, but that Windsor shouldn't be excluded - it could easily become a bedroom community to Halifax (I'm surprised it's not right now).

The counts don't factor in shopping trips or inter-region travel that would also use the rail service. In Truro having a stop in Downtown and at or near the Acadien Bus terminal would improve region wide transportation and at commuter prices the cost would be very competitive with bus service.

I looked it up and the rail service to Windsor could actually be extended to New Minas and if some investment were to be made the old rail track west towards Kentville could be reinstated.

I would like to see the rail service fall under a provincial transportation board with municipalities cost-sharing the funding required. So the province pays for the track and 50% of the train maintenance while the municipalities pay for the remaining maintenance and the train stations/terminals and associated park 'n rides.

Hfx_chris - I don't really see how having frequent stops would really make the service workable in terms of competing with the car. That's really the only way people would make the switch; if rail or ferry or bus is faster than driving. So if you add more stops, that adds more time. Plus other than Birch Cove, I don't really see any need for any more stops except maybe one for MSVU at Rockingham. But even still, that could be easily serviced with bus.

The stop shown and mentioned in the documents is actually in front of MSVU but one at Birch Cove itself work also be a good idea. I would also add a stop in the vicinity of Sunnyside Mall if possible (deal would have to be negotiated). I don't know if the cost would be worth it but one could be explored for the backside of Saint Mary's as well.

Jstaneless - I have to share your question about how many would bus into a ferry terminal from the 4 pad park and ride lot. That doesn't seem to make sense to me - wouldn't it be better to have them just drive right to the ferry/rail/bus stop at Mill Cove? That seems more logical to me. The other thing for me is your comment about bus only lanes. While I think it's a great idea on paper (or online) - getting it done is going to be hugely expensive. Take the Bedford Highway for example - there are some areas where there is very little room (if any) on either side to expropriate land to expand to add a bus only lane. You'd end up having to buy whole properties and knock down buildings - which can be very pricey. But, if the city is willing to spend that money and is prepared for the political heat they may encounter (from people unwilling to sell land) - then I'm all in favour. It might be easier to do it on the 102; but then again you end up having to deal with the province, which could be problematic too (depending on their plans with the highway).

The current plans for the waterfront show a good sized parking lot for the train/ferry terminal so some demand would be met there. Relatively cheap improvements to the active transportation system would provide a good-sized community to walk/bike to the terminal with or without the waterfront developments.

[Jstaleness]

In a sort of response to all of above. I agree that the cost and political crap that would come with widening the Bedford Hwy for bus just makes it almost impossible. It was more of a "too bad we couldn't" statement. I like the idea of the 102 bus only lane but I don't see it as important. The 102 is never slowed or stopped enough to spend the kind of money to benefit.
I'm glad to see that a vast parking allowance will be at the ferry terminal. If at free or low cost it will help encourage people to use it. Are they Ferries that are being proposed capable of accepting Bikes? That would be cool. Bike to the boat and get off downtown and bike the waterfront.

Off topic but in regards to the BRT.
A few years ago added the Bus Only lane at the bottom of the Magazine heading into Burnside. I thought that it was going to be built back all the way to where the bypass starts. It wasn't of course. Is this still possible? Is there enough room left between the road and military land? I ask this because in the mornings when that road is at a standstill I see the 185 Halifax's stuck in there as well. That 1.5km stretch could really save time on that route and I know way more people would use it because of that. Now fast forward to the future and when the BRT from Bedford comes into play it will really pay off. It defeats the purpose to have an express bus sitting in the same traffic as everyone else. We already know that don't we.:thrasher:

[pnightingale]

From today's Herald:

Commuter rail service would be costly, impractical — report

By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sun, Jan 30 - 3:00 PM

Setting up commuter rail service in metro isn’t practical and is contrary to Halifax Regional Municipality’s regional plan, a new city staff report says.

It says capital start-up costs for such a proposed service would be at least $30.9 million, but "the capital costs do not include any land acquisition that may be required."

The report says start-up costs would cover such things as CN Rail’s track infrastructure, five commuter train stations, two park-and-ride lots and shuttle buses.

Ongoing operating costs would be about $6.6 million.

The report, which is on the agenda for regional council’s committee of the whole session Tuesday, covers the feasibility of a commuter train system for the municipality that extends beyond the Halifax region’s boundaries.

"Building a commuter rail service in an effort to capture existing automobile commuting trips originating from outside HRM may appear to be a reasonable solution to reducing auto trips overall," says the report, prepared by Metro Transit staffer Dave Reage.

But "encouraging more population to locate outside of HRM is contrary to the objectives of the regional plan’s efforts to concentrate population. Furthermore, increasing the total distance that people commute may add to overall energy consumption and greenhouse gas emissions, even though the trips are being made by public transport."

The report says some communities "have express-bus travel options that would bring them to downtown more quickly than could be achieved by driving to a rail station and utilizing the rail service."

Mayor Peter Kelly, who’s used commuter rail as one of his election campaign planks, said Friday he disputes some of staff’s information. He said he challenges the greenhouse gas argument and does not believe such a service would be contrary to the regional plan.

Kelly said commuter trains could still roll through the Halifax region, though how that would ever come about is unclear.

The city staff report is based on a review of old information, "with modification made for factors that have changed (over time) such as population patterns, transit service levels, costs, and operating environment," the report says.

It says staff "has had limited discussions with CN representatives in preparing this study" and "a complete analysis of feasibility" with CN’s participation would require hiring a consultant. Based on past experience, the report says, CN "expected the cost for such a study to be approximately $250,000."

Kelly said the likelihood of city hall sharing the cost of that proposed research is remote.

"I don’t know if we need to go there," he said, of an expensive study.

"We have a lot of information."

A companion report for council’s committee of the whole meeting examines transit alternatives for Bedford. Prepared for Metro Transit, it says shuttle buses would be required — including one connecting the Via station in south-end Halifax to Scotia Square downtown — if commuter rail was to serve Bedford.

In 2008, city staff filed a report with council that said the Halifax region doesn’t have a big enough market to get a return on the financial investment required.

"Only cities with a population of one million or more have found commuter rail systems to be viable," it says. "Buses, on the other hand, are ideal for smaller markets where there is little start-up cost."

Maclean’s magazine this month reported more than 85 per cent of Canadians use vehicles to get to work, "a figure that hasn’t changed in two decades."


Unbelievable the spin media puts on things.

[someone123]

They are clearly setting up a kind of straw man argument where they define an outdated system that doesn't make much sense and then claim that rail is not viable.

The city hasn't even looked at any modern LRT or related technologies.

[Keith P.]

They are clearly setting up a kind of straw man argument where they define an outdated system that doesn't make much sense and then claim that rail is not viable.

The city hasn't even looked at any modern LRT or related technologies.

Interesting that Tim Outhit commented on the Herald site under that article that he totally disagreed with the report.

[Dmajackson]

Interesting that Tim Outhit commented on the Herald site under that article that he totally disagreed with the report.

From what I read on his facebook he's appriciative of the report being done but dislikes the take on the report that the article did.

[DigitalNinja]

Sometimes... A dictatorship is better than democracy... But only sometimes.

[someone123]

Interesting that Tim Outhit commented on the Herald site under that article that he totally disagreed with the report.

I partly agree with his post although he along with many others seems confused about LRT. This is not an LRT proposal. The trains are different and it is a low-frequency weekday service proposed only for commuters headed downtown for a day of work -- far less useful than a regular service with many stops useful to anybody travelling around this part of the city. This is part of why the report is so limited and useless.

The million population comment in HRM's hatchet job article from 2008 again was on commuter rail (like the GO train), not LRT (Calgary C-Train). LRT is more useful in smaller cities.

I do think that there should be a major transportation study done by some outside party looking at some higher tier transit service for the west side of the harbour and basin, including the peninsula.

As I've said many times I am guessing the best technology would be light rail capable of going in mixed traffic. Initially the system would have some mixed segments and some dedicated right of ways. Over a period of decades the HRM could slowly build tunnels or elevated segments to improve service. Some of the dedicated ROWs could be sections where cars are banned -- not actually that big of a deal since many routes are already crowded with buses and these would be eliminated.

The LRT would act as a "backbone" for transit and buses would converge on key stations.

[someone123]

Oh, and the comment about Kitchener-Waterloo area transit is also worth repeating. They are looking at LRT and the federal government has already promised up to $265 million.

Meanwhile in Halifax we have a council that every 5 years looks at the same tired proposal to take 30 year old trains and run a marginal service for $30M.

[alps]

I was in Denver a couple years ago and I remember thinking their small LRT cars seemed pretty well suited to Halifax in terms of size and adaptability (can run on streets or through dedicated stations). Looking at Wiki I see they use the same ones in Calgary and Edmonton.

[halifaxboyns]

The problem with setting up an LRT is that the two (LRT and heavy rail) can't sit next to each other without spacing. Calgary's C-train had to expand the CP right of way because of operating standards for safety. So you couldn't run and LRT through the rail cut with the train unless the LRT was one track, which creates problems with the need for a pull off to allow for another train to pass. That can create headway problems.

Now that being said - there is nothing that says you couldn't build an LRT above portions of the railway cut like the skytrain. This way, you wouldn't impeed the CN trains - the only issue might be clearances with overhead power lines, but you could essentially setup an LRT system.

The use of the older heavy rail cars is okay I guess - I don't really have an issue with that; but the spin they put on this article is just sad. I'm really not impressed with the herald. They seem to be anti-everything lately.

One thing I'd point out - BRT (Metrolink) is used all the time by cities to establish a high capacity route pattern which can eventually become an LRT or a subway. Look at Vancouver and the 98 and 99 B-line. Although the Canada Line didn't fully follow the 98 B-line route; that bus route established a primary transit corridor in Richmond, which has been quite successful. If you look at the Metro Link routes going and planned; the fact they are so heavily used has pretty much established what would be your high capacity train lines. Essentially from Portland Estates to downtown, Sackville to Burnside and onto Downtown and I suspect Lacewood to downtown.

One thing that could happen is perhaps we could use streetcars again to a certain extent? There are a lot of wide streets with the centre islands, so you could put the train in the middle. Instead of chopping the trees down, there are ways of uprooting them and then they could be moved to Point Plesant Park - to help with the re-growth? Expensive, yes, but this way you'd get a streetcar and still preserve the trees. If they used streetcars like the one in Vancouver for the games; they can corner pretty tight streets too plus with the upcoming street conversion in downtown - you could have the streetcar run curbside following traffic. I've always invisioned a streetcar route that would go from Mumford, down Windsor and then along Cunard and then North Park and into downtown, following Hollis down to the train station and ducking under the tracks to serve Pier 21 (great tourist train) and then back outbound along Lower Water. You could also add a line along Agricola which could start out around the Hydrostone, come down Agricola and then merge into N Park and follow the route until Morris, then divert up to Dalhousie along University avenue. Then just turn around and follow the route back.

Lots of opportunity for street car type LRTs in Halifax - just have to find the money and political will - because there will be spots where you'd have to take away street parking or you dig tunnels or take down trees (or probably take down homes).

[someone123]

I think it's myopic to be totally focused on the rail cut. If you take a step back it's obviously a bad route. The only reason why we talk about it is that people think it is some kind of bargain. It's not a bargain if it results in a fraction of the ridership, CN red tape, and a reliance on expensive old technology that will only get worse over time.

The problem with starting with BRT in Halifax is that even major routes are small and congested. The Vancouver B-Line routes are mostly 6 lanes or very light traffic in low-density areas. They also don't provide core service to areas like the downtown.

I'm also not sure why there's this obsession with service to Bedford or Fall River. Clayton Park and Fairview don't even have good service. The peninsula doesn't have fast service. If some good core routes were built then Bedford express service could complement them.

[halifaxboyns]

I think it's myopic to be totally focused on the rail cut. If you take a step back it's obviously a bad route. The only reason why we talk about it is that people think it is some kind of bargain. It's not a bargain if it results in a fraction of the ridership, CN red tape, and a reliance on expensive old technology that will only get worse over time.

The problem with starting with BRT in Halifax is that even major routes are small and congested. The Vancouver B-Line routes are mostly 6 lanes or very light traffic in low-density areas. They also don't provide core service to areas like the downtown.

I'm also not sure why there's this obsession with service to Bedford or Fall River. Clayton Park and Fairview don't even have good service. The peninsula doesn't have fast service. If some good core routes were built then Bedford express service could complement them.

I don't know if it's totally a bad route or useless. I mean if you build over it; then there is opportunity there to follow it where needed. For example, if you had an LRT route that went down Quinpool, it could go underground and then come above ground in that park by the rail cut and then be elevated to get to Mumford? I hadn't really thought of using it for an entire route though - too complicated.

I watched this thing on PBS called E squared - if you haven't seen it; the first season is on youtube - I highly encourage watching it. It was very interesting. We are watching them as a education thing at work over lunch hours and we just watched the episode on Portland which talked about their LRT, streetcar and aerial tram. One thing which stood out for me was a comment that a local shop keeper made. The city wanted investment but people really reacted to streetcars and LRT because 'rail meant a firm committment to infrastructure'. What he meant was that reinvestment in areas which could be 'ripe' for redevelopment exploded when the streetcars or LRT were built because unlike buses you couldn't take them away - the rail was there. I'm not neutral on conventional versus LRT - but personally I'd the more I look at maps of Halifax the more I see the possibility for streetcars on the peninsula. That's just me though.

And I don't mean streetcars only and forgoing an potential lrt/skytrain type option.

[someone123]

I don't know if it's totally a bad route or useless. I mean if you build over it; then there is opportunity there to follow it where needed. For example, if you had an LRT route that went down Quinpool, it could go underground and then come above ground in that park by the rail cut and then be elevated to get to Mumford? I hadn't really thought of using it for an entire route though - too complicated.

Unfortunately the HRM never looks at creative solutions like this. All we ever hear about is old diesel trains running from the VIA station to Fall River.

It is like deciding you never want a car because some guy tried to sell you a rust bucket from 1982 for $10,000. Anybody who does that is just making excuses.

[halifaxboyns]

Unfortunately the HRM never looks at creative solutions like this. All we ever hear about is old diesel trains running from the VIA station to Fall River.

It is like deciding you never want a car because some guy tried to sell you a rust bucket from 1982 for $10,000. Anybody who does that is just making excuses.

Well I have to admit - its sad to not use the old train station for something. I mean the via rail service is once a day and there are so many better types of heavy rail options out there that could be used versus the old BUDD cars. There are other options that would push the cost up initially, but would be far more efficient. But that station just seems like a waste to me if we don't use it for something. Plus the whole rail to trail that was done for the line that went through Bayers Lake was being so short sited. That could easily have been used for an LRT out to Tantallon with minimal effort.

I guess for me - if they are going to do a commuter rail; I'd like to see them use something more efficient than the BUDD cars but still use the train station. It's such a nice old building but so wasted in it's potential. I look at it and think if the population gets to the right point; it could be a Halifax version of Union Station (just HRM scale).

That's why when I think about a regional transportation system - I think about intergration as much as possible. Multi-modal; many connection points to create redundancy. So for Bedford, I see a high speed ferry. But I also see Regional Rail and I see potentially an LRT. The same with Alderney Landing - LRT, ferry and maybe a streetcar for the Dartmouth side. More options, means more potential to grab people out of their cars and get them onto transit.

Plus; I go back to some of the comments posted on the herald and I think about what someone said on that e squared episode about portland. People don't want to use transit if it doesn't feel comfortable. A streetcar like the flexity trains that were used in Vancouver for the games (and are used in Brussels) can take tight turns and have nice leather covered seats and lots of windows. All my friends who tried out the Olympic line, loved it - so comfy they kept saying. That's how you get people on transit, comfort. It's not about the standard bus that feels gross, it's about making transit users feel important. Plus rules that would allow LRT or streetcars to have priority over cars.

[DigitalNinja]

That reminds me, Metro Transit has a few old Classic buses with the old blue leather seats in them, it isn't often that they use them but OMG when they did and you sat down, it was amazing.

[-Harlington-]

That reminds me, Metro Transit has a few old Classic buses with the old blue leather seats in them, it isn't often that they use them but OMG when they did and you sat down, it was amazing.

yeah, i always loved taking those buses because they were so comfortable,
but i havent seen any for a few years

[DigitalNinja]

I was on one last year...

On that note, I hate the seats on the new buses!

[Wishblade]

I was on one last year...

On that note, I hate the seats on the new buses!

I read that they actually took the last one of these out of service in the autumn. Unfortunately were only left with the hard seats now lol.

[hfx_chris]

First - wow. That is one piss poor example of reporting. They took a report that, personally, I thought looked rather favourably on rail, and starts with the headline "Commuter rail service would be costly, impractical — report." I have to wonder is this the media spinning it, or is HRM staff spinning it? I know Metro Transit staff seems to be anti-rail, so that wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Hfx_chris - I don't really see how having frequent stops would really make the service workable in terms of competing with the car. That's really the only way people would make the switch; if rail or ferry or bus is faster than driving. So if you add more stops, that adds more time. Plus other than Birch Cove, I don't really see any need for any more stops except maybe one for MSVU at Rockingham. But even still, that could be easily serviced with bus.
You may have missed the part where I said they should be using smaller, faster trains. RDCs are notoriously slow at getting up to speed. They're much better suited to a regional rail system, where you have infrequent stops. A Windsor Junction to Halifax route to me would be much better served by LRT, which does use smaller and faster trains, and more frequent stops.

I once had a Google map I created of my ideal Windsor Junction to Halifax route and where the stops should be, but I must have deleted it. As I recall I had stops at: Windsor Junction and Cobequid (park and ride), somewhere near Sunnyside Mall, Mill Cove, Larry Uteck, MSVU, West End Mall, South Street (for Dalhousie), Tower Road (for SMU) and the VIA station. And, if the proper type of trains are used, they could also be extended through downtown to Cogswell/Scotia Square (via Lower Water and Hollis Streets).

I forget who said it here but they're right, every rail report HRM seems to look at focuses on heavy rail options, like commuter/regional rail. This is not what HRM needs at this point! Maybe if we were at the point where rail to Windsor or Truro made sense, commuter rail would, but we're not there. I wish they would conduct a proper rail feasability study, with options HRM could actually use.

That reminds me, Metro Transit has a few old Classic buses with the old blue leather seats in them, it isn't often that they use them but OMG when they did and you sat down, it was amazing.
They're gone I'm afraid... they were New Looks by the way, not Classics. And yeah, they were comfortable. Re the seats on the new buses, I love the seats on the new articulated LFS' - the metal framed ones - I find them very comfortable!

[hfx_chris]

And here we go..
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1225094.html

Another train of thought
Report on commuter rail does not compute, Bedford councillor says
By LAURA FRASER Staff Reporter
Mon, Jan 31 - 4:54 AM

Bedford’s municipal councillor condemned a report by city staffers that says a commuter rail service would be expensive and impractical for a city the size of Halifax.

The report pegged minimum startup capital costs of the service at $30.9 million, which does not include any land purchases that might be needed.

But Coun. Tim Outhit said the report seemed misleading in its information about the costs of other transit options for Halifax Regional Municipality.

"I don’t think we should make any big decisions based on this report," Outhit said in an interview Sunday. "There are too many gaps."

He said the capital costs of other projects, like MetroLink bus rapid transit corridors, do not provide a fair comparison to the figures compiled in the report.

With the possibility of dozens of buses using certain streets, those routes would need constant repair, Outhit said. Depending upon the volume of buses, some streets might also need to be widened, he said.

"So you have to factor all those sorts of things in (the capital costs) of other projects. . . . Long term, I really believe that rail is more sustainable."

He said a rail system could be expanded over time to reduce the startup costs, suggesting it could connect Sackville, Waverley, Rockingham, Hammonds Plains, Clayton Park and Bedford, and then move beyond the municipality.

When asked why all residential taxpayers should shoulder a project that would mainly benefit the suburbs, Outhit said he thinks the rail service would be symbiotic.

"We all benefit by less traffic. We all benefit by cleaner air," he said.

"Commuter rail serves a lot of districts plus gets some of that gridlock off Bayers Road, Windmill Road and the A. Murray MacKay Bridge."

He said more people in the suburbs would be encouraged to spend a night on the town if they could hop on a train to get home.

"So I honestly think it would be a shot in the arm to downtown, too."

The report looks at the practicality of a commuter rail system for the municipality as well as outside its borders. It will be part of the agenda for Tuesday’s meeting of committee of the whole.

[kwajo]

And here we go..
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1225094.html
Love the first comment on that article, "If we weren't trying to cram everything on a peninsula there would be less of a traffic problem." :rolleyes:

[halifaxboyns]

Love the first comment on that article, "If we weren't trying to cram everything on a peninsula there would be less of a traffic problem." :rolleyes:

Some people just don't get it.

[halifaxboyns]

You may have missed the part where I said they should be using smaller, faster trains. RDCs are notoriously slow at getting up to speed. They're much better suited to a regional rail system, where you have infrequent stops. A Windsor Junction to Halifax route to me would be much better served by LRT, which does use smaller and faster trains, and more frequent stops.

I once had a Google map I created of my ideal Windsor Junction to Halifax route and where the stops should be, but I must have deleted it. As I recall I had stops at: Windsor Junction and Cobequid (park and ride), somewhere near Sunnyside Mall, Mill Cove, Larry Uteck, MSVU, West End Mall, South Street (for Dalhousie), Tower Road (for SMU) and the VIA station. And, if the proper type of trains are used, they could also be extended through downtown to Cogswell/Scotia Square (via Lower Water and Hollis Streets).

I forget who said it here but they're right, every rail report HRM seems to look at focuses on heavy rail options, like commuter/regional rail. This is not what HRM needs at this point! Maybe if we were at the point where rail to Windsor or Truro made sense, commuter rail would, but we're not there. I wish they would conduct a proper rail feasability study, with options HRM could actually use.

They're gone I'm afraid... they were New Looks by the way, not Classics. And yeah, they were comfortable. Re the seats on the new buses, I love the seats on the new articulated LFS' - the metal framed ones - I find them very comfortable!

I did miss your comment on the power up speed of the RDC's but I was pretty sure it was bad anyway. If they do setup regional rail - I'd like to see them use a more modern trainset if not electric (they could easily do the elevated lines without causing a clearance issue.

I remember you posted the map because I commented on it; but alas I don't have the link anymore. I started playing with google maps on the weekend coming up with a new regional transportation map that took into account the potential for a couple streetcars and then an LRT (either like Calgary/Edmonton or Vancouver's) combined with a regional rail. But I don't really understand your comment about not using heavy rail for a regional rail service? Because of the safety issues - you'd have to expand the ROW for rail between Halifax and Truro to keep the two apart - wouldn't it be easier to use a more modern heavy rail system that had better performance and then use LRT throughout the city? I'm thinking comfort wise, but I guess an LRT would work and would solve the problem of getting people from the train station to downtown - you could put the rails in the street.

For me; I look at regional rail like GO transit and then if providing trains in the city - it should be LRT or a subway. I look at it from a hierarchy of forms. I'd love to see a streetcar line (a few actually) that could then compliment a regional rail system - you take regional rail to the train station and then xfer to the streetcar to get into downtown.

[halifaxboyns]

The story CBC did on the rail line issue wasn't too bad on the news cast tonight. I'm glad to see that some of the suburban councillor's are getting into this like Tim and Barry. Although a few people said they'd get out of their cars - it might be worth while to setup an online survey and direct people to it? Or maybe a public meeting or mail out survey?

[hfx_chris]

But I don't really understand your comment about not using heavy rail for a regional rail service? Because of the safety issues - you'd have to expand the ROW for rail between Halifax and Truro to keep the two apart - wouldn't it be easier to use a more modern heavy rail system that had better performance and then use LRT throughout the city? I'm thinking comfort wise, but I guess an LRT would work and would solve the problem of getting people from the train station to downtown - you could put the rails in the street.

I may not have explained that quite right.
Personally I don't think Nova Scotia is at the point where we need a regional commuter rail system, such as GO Transit in Ontario or AMT in Quebec. I would certainly love to see commuter rail servicing areas like Windsor, Truro and possibly beyond, but I don't think the population is there yet to justify it. That's why I'm saying I think the ideal startup system is a high frequency, higher speed LRT-style system, servicing at most say Windsor Junction and maybe Beaver Bank or Wellington; within HRM.

Capital MetroRail in Austin Tx operates a very interesting rail system, sort of a cross between a smaller LRT and a larger commuter/heavy rail option, using trains that are both capable of operating within city streets (like a typical LRT or tramcar system), which can also operate on the main line rail tracks (like a commuter rail system). It can do this because the trains are built to heavy rail standards, with all of the appropriate structural requirements and safety systems. These sort of systems, while still rare in North America, are becoming more common in European countries. Something like this would probably be perfect for Halifax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_MetroRail

[halifaxboyns]

Okay I understand now and I think you are probably right. I think back to a comment that was in the newspaper recently from Councillor Hensbie, who I have to say is not one of my favs, but I had to agree with him when he talked about some people 'freeloading'. While I wouldn't call it that; he's pinpointed one of the difficult things for transit when you have small towns being bedroom communities for a larger city.

Of course Truro or Windsor wouldn't want to help fund a regional rail service - it takes money out of their budget when they get the tax dollars from the residential. It's sad to see both being so unwilling to get on board, but like you said the population isn't there yet.

The problem I see with a regional LRT system is that you still couldn't fully use the rail cut running an LRT with conventional rail because of the safety issue. You might be able too outside the rail cut where widening the right of way through expropriation would be possible; but not on the Peninsula. But, like I've mentioned earlier you could also use the air right over the rail cut to a certain extent. Calgary is doing that with the SunAlta station as part of the West Line of the Ctrain and then the track up Bow trail. You could potentially run an lrt along the rail ROW to the point where widening the ROW isn't possible, then switch over to an elevated system or a partial elevated system to eventually get the lrt to a street and then run it from there. Although I wouldn't recommend the Bedford Highway - there is barely any room to widen it now - putting an LRT would be near impossible. But you might be able to find a way to run it elevated over the highway.

[Jonovision]

Wide range of views on bus terminal


By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE

City Hall Reporter

Harbour East community council got conflicting signals at a public meeting Thursday from people concerned about a planned bus terminal replacement near the Dartmouth Sportsplex.

But the message from Metro Transit’s unionized bus drivers was clear: the proposed project has been in the works since 2006, they said, so just approve a design and build the thing.

Officials from Local 508 of the Amalgamated Transit Union said the current terminal has been unsuitable for passengers and bus operators for years. They said there are occupational health and safety issues at play and urged the politicians to award the construc­tion contract so a new terminal can finally start to take shape.

In November, dozens of union­ized Metro Transit workers hand­ed out mittens and hats to pas­sengers at the Dartmouth termi­nal to raise awareness about what they said was the lack of action on a new transit hub. That frustra­tion carried over to Thursday night when a union representa­tive and the community council’s chairwoman briefly sparred.

“You’re entitled to your opin­ion," Coun. Gloria McCluskey (Dartmouth Centre) said to union executive Shane O’Leary, who told community council that Halifax regional council was to blame for the delay in getting the project done.

McCluskey said it wasn’t re­gional council’s fault because other factors outside its authority have helped slow the process.

“I’m entitled to the truth," O’Leary said, before leaving the council chamber.

There were speakers at the meeting who said city hall should stick with the more expensive of two options for the proposed terminal. That design would cost more than $12 million and would include a pedestrian overpass connecting the building to the Dartmouth Common.

Advocates for bus riders with disabilities or visual impairment said that design would make the terminal safer and more acces­sible for those passengers.

The second option is less ambi­tious, doesn’t have the footbridge or other amenities such as two elevators, and would cost consid­erably less. Though the proposed bus depot was to cost around $9.5 million, tender bids that came to Halifax Regional Municipality were al­most $4 million over budget. City staff said regional council can consider cost reductions that could enable the cheaper alterna­tive to be built for about $8.8 million.

Construction of the terminal would take about 10 months, staff told The Chronicle Herald.

Supporters of the less expensive design liked its more open con­cept and said the terminal would have less impact on staff and students at nearby Dartmouth High School.

Coun. Jackie Barkhouse (Woodside-Eastern Passage) said the roughly $4-million difference between the two alternatives shouldn’t be the only factor.

“It should be cost for value."

In the end, community council decided not to make a recom­mendation to regional council and instead forwarded speakers’ comments to the larger council.

Regional council is to discuss the bus depot at its meeting next Tuesday and could decide then.

(mlightstone@herald.ca)

[Dmajackson]

City to move ahead with $12-million Dartmouth bus terminal
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter | UPDATED 9:45 p.m.
Tue, Feb 8 - 6:34 PM

Halifax regional council Tuesday approved a Metro Transit bus depot for Dartmouth worth more than $12 million.

Council’s approval followed an hour-long debate about the merits of the project, versus a cheaper design, and it happened about five years after the development was initially authorized.
In a recorded vote, council opted 16-6 for the more expensive version. Once construction begins later this year, the transit terminal should take about 10 months to build.

Council’s blessing was given after it received a recommendation from Harbour East community council that the development go ahead. The project includes an overhead pedestrian walkway linked to the site, two elevators and other amenities.

The other option regional council was considering was $3 million to $4 million cheaper, without the walkway and elevators. The terminal is to be built between the Dartmouth Sportsplex and Dartmouth High School.

Councillors who voted against the more costly design were Stephen Adams, Bob Harvey, Dawn Sloane, Sue Uteck, Jennifer Watts and Mary Wile. Opponents said the proposed development is too expensive, while supporters liked the design because of user safety and accessibility for disabled transit riders.

The new depot will replace one Halifax Regional Municipality officials say serves more than 17,000 Metro Transit customers a day but is considered unsafe for pedestrians, terrible for disabled passengers and inadequate with respect to the occupational health and safety of bus drivers.

Coun. David Hendsbee (Preston-Lawrencetown-Chezzetcook) said not only will the project correct the deficiencies of the existing bus terminal, it may become a destination for people who may want to visit “the jewel” of metro’s public transit system. The existing terminal is also next to the Dartmouth Sportsplex.

Coun. Dawn Sloane (Halifax Downtown) said a transit terminal costing more than $12 million is just too expensive. Coun. Jerry Blumenthal (Halifax North End) said he didn’t like either option because neither version did much to make life easier for bus users with visual impairments.

Municipal staff were asked where the money will come from to cover the cost of the new depot and they told council other capital projects earmarked for Metro Transit will likely have to be postponed to accommodate the project.

In other business, council got some good budget news from finance staff Tuesday. The municipality’s projected fiscal imbalance for 2011-12 is down to $6.8 million from an estimated $13.9 million.

The city is required by law to balance its budget.

Projected property assessment revenue and close to $3 million in internal savings helped narrow the gap, staff told the politicians.

Council’s budget debate is to take place in April.

[Jonovision]

Great news! I'm a little shocked actually. I was sure they were going to go for the dulled down version. I can't wait to see construction. I use this terminal all the time.

[DigitalNinja]

It would be nice to have a discussion as to wether the law to balance the budget is good or bad for Halifax.
I'm glad this has gone through though, it's the first step in making our public transit better.

[halifaxboyns]

It would be nice to have a discussion as to wether the law to balance the budget is good or bad for Halifax.
I'm glad this has gone through though, it's the first step in making our public transit better.

I'm glad this is going through - the bridge terminal needed a total overhaul. Plus I think you will find once it's built that most of the people who complained will suddenly be quiet.

As to the law to balance the budget - I think it has a crucial purpose to keep things in check. But in economic hard times, it can create challenges. Perhaps some change to the law allowing some flexibility would be better?

[DigitalNinja]

Yeah, I was thinking like giving a maximum # of years to be under budget but after that you have to have a surplus.
For example
2012 -7mil
2013 -3mil
2014 +1 mil
Or something like that, I think it would benefit the city more than it does now.

[halifaxboyns]

Yeah, I was thinking like giving a maximum # of years to be under budget but after that you have to have a surplus.
For example
2012 -7mil
2013 -3mil
2014 +1 mil
Or something like that, I think it would benefit the city more than it does now.

Something like that would work, or it could be based on gross GDP? I'm not sure what would work - but either way would be more flexible.

[worldlyhaligonian]

"Councillors who voted against the more costly design were Stephen Adams, Bob Harvey, Dawn Sloane, Sue Uteck, Jennifer Watts and Mary Wile. Opponents said the proposed development is too expensive, while supporters liked the design because of user safety and accessibility for disabled transit riders."

No suprise there... and these folks are supposedly in favour of accessability?

[JET]

"Councillors who voted against the more costly design were Stephen Adams, Bob Harvey, Dawn Sloane, Sue Uteck, Jennifer Watts and Mary Wile. Opponents said the proposed development is too expensive, while supporters liked the design because of user safety and accessibility for disabled transit riders."

No suprise there... and these folks are supposedly in favour of accessability?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/02/11/ns-airport-bus-dalrymple.html

lots of politickin' about busin':koko:

[Jstaleness]

The only time I can remember Sue or Dawn voting yes for anything is when they vote to defer something to another date or are voting not to change something.

[halifaxboyns]

The only time I can remember Sue or Dawn voting yes for anything is when they vote to defer something to another date or are voting not to change something.

They voted for the MPS amendments for Fenwick. Both had positive things to say about it.

I'm not trying to defend them; just sayin. :jester:

[Jstaleness]

Haha! It's no problem.

[macgregor]

Thursday, April 14, 2011

Yield to Bus Legislation in effect May 1, 2011


The province is taking steps to improve transit efficiency and safety with legislation that comes into effect May 1, requiring drivers to yield the right of way to transit buses signaling their intention to re-enter the traffic stream.

"Currently, buses must rely on the courtesy of drivers to re-enter traffic.
This legislation will provide clarity for all drivers while helping to reduce schedule delays," said Bill Estabrooks, Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. "This legislation will make life better for all road users by improving public transit efficiency and safety."

This legislation was modelled after similar legislation in British Columbia, Ontario, and Quebec. The amendment was initially proposed in the fall 2007 sitting of the legislature as a Private Members Bill.

Fines for failing to yield to a transit bus range from $167 to $340, including court costs.

For detailed information, visit www.gov.ns.ca/tran/hottopics/yieldtobus

[BravoZulu]

It's about time! The transit system here is dysfunctional to say the least, but this is definitely a step in the right direction.

[Keith P.]

Yet another unnecessary law. I can see our ticket-happy HRM police taking advantage of this to catch unsuspecting drivers when a P.O-ed transit driver decides to jump into traffic.

[Jstaleness]

I like the law. I wonder how long the grace period will be? The buses will hopefully also have stickers stating they have the right of way. I'm usually one of those drivers that lets a bus back into traffic. I support mass transit.

[gm_scott]

I like the law. I wonder how long the grace period will be? The buses will hopefully also have stickers stating they have the right of way. I'm usually one of those drivers that lets a bus back into traffic. I support mass transit.
I do the same. I put it this way: It's one(me) versus 50 people in a bus. I'm usually never in that much of a rush anyways, so might as well let the bus go. Besides when it stops next, I can probably safely pass it. As a bus rider, as well as a driver, I wish everyone would do that.

[DigitalNinja]

I like this law as well.

[-Harlington-]

i bet not to many people will pay attention to this

but if they do and its effective i like the law as well

[Jstaleness]

i bet not to many people will pay attention to this

but if they do and its effective i like the law as well

People will only pay attention to this if people actually get fined. 340 is a lot to pay for being in a hurry. The yield signs have begun showing up on the buses.

[Wishblade]

Sigh, are we ever going to see this proceed?...

Dartmouth bus terminal plan stuck in traffic
City hears of more delays in $12-million proposal
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Fri, May 27 - 4:54 AM

The proposed Metro Transit bus terminal replacement in Dartmouth is a project going nowhere fast, a Halifax city hall committee heard Thursday.

In the works for years, the $12-million proposal has had anything but a smooth ride through Halifax Regional Municipality’s bureaucracy. Now, the project has been delayed by an unforeseen storm sewer situation and it may have to be retendered.

Senior staff told regional council’s transportation standing committee the term of the old tender has expired. The earliest construction can begin at the site, near the Dartmouth Sportsplex, is late July.

Municipal staff are in talks with Halifax Water about the storm drainage problem. The terminal might have to be redesigned before construction can start, the committee heard.

This is a project that should have been built by now, said angry executive members from the union representing municipal transit employees.

They told The Chronicle Herald that red tape and the lack of political will on regional council has helped prevent the planned terminal from coming to fruition.

A couple of committee members expressed their frustration, too, at the latest snafu to impede the building’s progress.

"I want the shovels in the ground tomorrow," Coun. Darren Fisher (East Dartmouth-The Lakes) told the committee.

Coun. Jennifer Watts said the proposed bus depot should be "the highest priority" when the issue goes back to Halifax council. Union officials said priority matters for council don’t usually get postponed in this manner.

"They could have done this years ago," said Ken Wilson, president of Local 508 of the Amalgamated Transit Union. "If they really want to get stuff done, you get it done."

Wilson pointed to the speed at which the outdoor skating oval at the Halifax Commons was approved by council and then transformed into a construction site.

He said union members are fed up with the delays.

"They wanted a skating rink," Wilson said of the popular Canada Games oval in the park. "The public got behind the oval (and) look how fast" that project got going, he said.

He said bus users, taxpayers, transit workers and others should collectively lobby the politicians to treat the planned terminal replacement with the same verve.

The new depot will replace one that city staff say handles more than 17,000 Metro Transit customers a day but is considered unsafe for pedestrians, terrible for disabled passengers and inadequate with respect to the occupational health and safety of bus drivers.

Wilson said bus operators need safe, sanitary washrooms to use during their shifts at work.

"They complain about our sick time, which is a legitimate complaint," he said. "Our sick time is high — absolutely. But we don’t have washroom facilities, we don’t have a place to get anything warm to eat and we deal with the public all day long."

A municipal staff update is to go to regional council in the coming weeks. Coun. Jerry Blumenthal (Halifax North End) said he’s disappointed there could be a late-hour design change in the bus depot proposal, and wondered why the city’s consultant didn’t adequately address the storm drainage situation.

"How come now we’re starting to look at the design might not be proper?" the councillor asked. "It really upsets me with the amount of money that we’re spending."

Last year, two bids for the Metro Transit project were almost $4 million each higher than the development’s estimated $9.5-million cost at that time. The price tag increased to about $12 million after council heard from the public and agreed to extra features at the site.

The committee heard Thursday the most recent delay should not drive the cost up further, but the union doesn’t believe that.

[Dmajackson]

Metro Transit's 2011-2012 Annual Service Plan (http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/news/documents/2011-12_AnnualServicePlan.pdf)

Notable Highlights by Route:
*Please note there are other adjustments, only major routes and changes listed

10 Dalhousie

- Removal of 5:53pm & 6:22pm trips from Westphal

11 Dockyard NEW!!

- New route between CFB Halifax & Bridge Terminal
- Removes Dockyard portion of Route 51
- Bridge Terminal to MacDonald Bridge to North Street to Valour Way to Upper Water Street to Cogswell Street to Gottingen Street to MacDonald Bridge to Bridge Terminal

34 Glenbourne Express

- Route adjusted to provide service along Parkland Drive from Kearney Lake Road to Farnham Gate Road, and remove service from Scotch Pine Terrace, Blue Thistle Road, and Heathside Crescent (see route map in Appendix B)

57 Russell Lake

- Routing adjustments to service Mount Hope Avenue from newly opened overpass over Highway 111.
- Will travel inbound – Mount Hope Avenue, Acadia Street, Pleasant Street to Woodside Ferry Terminal, and return (see route map in Appendix B)
- Service will be removed from Estates Road and Atlantic Street

84 Glendale, 85 Downsview, 86 Basinview

- These three peak-hour routes will be converted to limited stop Urban Express service to allow more direct service to and from downtown Halifax and improve schedule adherence.

90 Larry Uteck NEW!!

- New ALF route created to service the developing area of Larry Uteck Boulevard to the Halifax Ferry Terminal in Downtown Halifax. (See route map in Appendix B)
- This service will run every 30 minutes from 6:00am to 6:00pm, and every 60 minutes from 6:00pm to 11:00pm on weekdays and Saturdays; and every 60 minutes from 6:00am to 11:00pm on Sundays.
- This service is proposed to be implemented November 21, 2011.
- The routing is: Larry Uteck @ Starboard (starting point) downhill, right on Bedford Highway, right on Windsor, left on Quinpool, right on Robie, left on University, straight onto Morris, left onto Lower Water, left onto Duke, left onto Hollis to Hollis@Morris (end point).

330 Tantallon/Sheldrake Lake

- Will service a Park & Ride lot to be constructed near Exit 4 off Highway 103.
- Schedule adjustments to existing service may occur as a result of this change.
- This service is proposed to be implemented November 21, 2011.

[ewjonsson]

Looks like Fusion Halifax is hosting a transit forum over the summer.

It's More than Buses (http://www.fusionhalifax.ca/en/home/events/details/default.aspx?ec=bW9kZT0zJmV2ZW50PTE5NCZkdD0yMDExMDYyOCZjYXRJRD0w)

[ewjonsson]

Edit: Double post

[worldlyhaligonian]

Looks like Fusion Halifax is hosting a transit forum over the summer.

It's More than Buses (http://www.fusionhalifax.ca/en/home/events/details/default.aspx?ec=bW9kZT0zJmV2ZW50PTE5NCZkdD0yMDExMDYyOCZjYXRJRD0w)

This looks good, I hope some pressure can be put on our leadership to look beyond buses (and bicycles). Halifax needs some sort of plan for rail going forward.

[halifaxboyns]

I'm going to get on my soapbox as I've been getting on this kick about regional planning lately (I don't know why, I'm a development planner, but whatever lol).

This is a great first step - Jono could probably confirm this: Is anyone from HRM staff coming? Anyone from Metro transit? I'd start there and invite staff from Planning too, if that hasn't happened yet.

HRM is in an interesting situation. It's not quite big enough to support a major rapid transit system like an LRT (usually the typical population is 550k from what I'm told), but it's developed pockets that can be station locations along certain corridors.

Regional Rail - This could be a good first step, if, the right thought goes into it. Using it much like a 'go' style system (operating during peak times or for special events) is okay, but it doesn't solve the major issues. The other issue is that most of the people coming onto the Peninsula are in areas where the density isn't high enough yet. But there appears to be desire to change that - with the Bedford West Infill plan, that could add a lot of people. The same could be done around Sunnyside Mall - designate that a major mixed use node along a regional rail line, you'd bulk up the number of people that could use the system. But don't use the BUDD cars. They may be 'upgraded' but still inefficient compared to modern vehicles.

Fast Ferry - Same issue, the density in Bedford or Purcell's Cove isn't that great, but the potential bus feeder connections could be good from all over Bedford/Sackville. Plus the Bedford West project would put thousands, right on the door step of the Ferry. But in the immediate future, Metro Transit's plan to bulk up the Woodside ferry to 7 day a week service is a good starting point. Especially if the connections from Woodside to Portland Street and the communities along there are done well.

Streetcar - I know many don't like the idea of a streetcar, it would be limited because it might not be able to go over the bridges. But I like the idea of having one or two on the Peninsula and one service Dartmouth (maybe even 2). Especially if these lines take advantage of going through under developed areas like Agricola or Gottingen Street and corresponding policy changes are made to bulk up the density and encourage mixed use high density, regardless of scale (height).

LRT - When HRM reaches the right amount of population, this is the best way to go. A subway may be involved (to get the LRT through certain tight areas like Downtown for example) and this won't be cheap. But investing in transit never is, but the value comes in the long haul. The planning work should start with the next regional plan to identify theoretical route corridors - doesn't mean they will go there, but it could identify options. This can then spawn a decision that if the 'routes' are what council wants, then policy can be changed to encourage densification around the potential station or routes to bulk up the people who could use it.

Since I'm not going to make it to any of these meetings, it might be best Jono if you and I PM, because I don't want to rant and fill up this thread. Plus I'm sure others have thoughts on this.

But the report that Metro Transit published (which DJ linked) is very interesting. I suggest everyone have a read on it...some very interesting figured and information.

But I'll end this post on one thought: I rant about Portland being a great example of doing transit versus roads, but consider this. Portland stopped investing in a major road network expansion, built an LRT and a streetcar. The have some of the shortest vehicle trip durations in the US and the amount of time being used by cars for trips is going down. Transit and biking/walking are moving up the scale quite quickly as the dominant modes of transit in the City not because people were forced. They made the choice to live that way. Plus, if you consider that their streetcar cost somewhere in the realm of $60 million to build and it created $3 billion in private investment from zoning and policy changes to encourage redevelopment - imagine what that would do in HRM.

[someone123]

It's possible to run light rail cars in mixed traffic, and that might be a good place to start in Halifax.

I think a good approach would be to create a basic system with a couple of advantages at bottlenecks. Over time it could be improved so that more and more of the city is served by relatively high-speed, dedicated ROW rail.

It might also be worthwhile to spend more upfront for a completely separated system so that it can be automated. An automated system with small trains running at high frequencies would offer great service.

[Jonovision]

Yah, this is my event. I've been working with a team on it now for a few months. I hope you guys can come out! There is also a facebook group for discussion and an event page for the first session. We have some great panelists coming in.

It is a totally grassroots, independent and objective session. Metro Transit has been invited to join the conversation but they will not be on the panel. At least not for the first session.

[ewjonsson]

I was there last night and I was fairly impressed with the turnout. I would have liked to have heard more from the third speaker though, he seemed to have some very interesting things to say. All around good event though.

[Jonovision]

Thanks! We were pleased with the turnout and the speakers. It is a shame we only had 2 hours. Both Jarrett and Steven had lots of very interesting things to say. And Jarrett Walker did have a number of good quick ideas that could be easily implemented within the next few years.

[beyeas]

Hey Jonovision... I wish I could have gone.
For those of us who couldn't attend, is there any site that I can go to get a summary of what was said/proposed?

Barring that... can you give us a quick summary of some of the more interesting ideas etc?

[Jonovision]

If you check out the It's More Than Buses facebook page there should be some updates from the evening. Be sure to come out for our second session on July 19th when we look at Designing the Network.

There were some very interesting short term solutions to creating a better public transportation network proposed by some of the panelists. One thing that I found really interesting was the idea of rebranding a section of the network. For instance taking the stretch of Barrington from Scotia Square up SG to Robie and branding it as the Green Line. Then taking all buses, no matter what number and what their final destination is and branding them as the green line. This could create some very fast frequency along that stretch and would encourage people to use it more effectively.
There was a lot of talk from the panelists regarding frequency. Pairing down some of the existing lines, but improving the frequency on those that are used most. The conversation from the panelists also concentrated on improving the core of the system before trying to reach every little outlying area.

[Keith P.]

There were some very interesting short term solutions to creating a better public transportation network proposed by some of the panelists. One thing that I found really interesting was the idea of rebranding a section of the network. For instance taking the stretch of Barrington from Scotia Square up SG to Robie and branding it as the Green Line. Then taking all buses, no matter what number and what their final destination is and branding them as the green line. This could create some very fast frequency along that stretch and would encourage people to use it more effectively.


I don't see the advantage of that. Every bus heading from SGR and Robie inbound goes to Scotia Square I believe and I think people already know that. Outbound from SS I think the only one that does not go to SGR and Robie is the #10. The problem is not getting from SS to SGR & Robie or vice-versa. The problem is getting from either of those 2 points to your ultimate destination. Not much benefit to getting to SS quickly if the only bus to take you home doesn't come for another hour.

[someone123]

I don't see the advantage of that. Every bus heading from SGR and Robie inbound goes to Scotia Square I believe and I think people already know that.

Visitors to the city and newcomers don't. It's also not something that is handled by tools like Google Transit.

[Jonovision]

I don't see the advantage of that. Every bus heading from SGR and Robie inbound goes to Scotia Square I believe and I think people already know that. Outbound from SS I think the only one that does not go to SGR and Robie is the #10. The problem is not getting from SS to SGR & Robie or vice-versa. The problem is getting from either of those 2 points to your ultimate destination. Not much benefit to getting to SS quickly if the only bus to take you home doesn't come for another hour.

Some people might know. But the majority of office workers do not. And many people also wait only for the #1 because they know for sure that it will take them along that route, when in fact many other buses will also do it. The main point of the idea is to increase frequency artificially. It could allow an office worker at Scotia Square to come out for lunch and hop on a bus and head up to SG and back without having to wait for the #1. It's also a branding tool. It could make it more appealing and sexier which makes people more likely to use it.

[Jstaleness]

I think it is also a good idea. As far as the office workers going from Duke to SGR, it would make the difference. A lot of people that drive to work don't know buses at all and don't feel comfortable even trying them. If they knew about the "green line" they would be more likely to use it as they wouldn't be afraid of getting on the wrong bus. On top of that the frequency would be every few mins.

[halifaxboyns]

Another option would be to improve the information that riders get at key locations. For example: If you are at Scotia Square and you don't know what buses go up SGR - then perhaps improved information showing a map or a list of buses that go up SGR would work?

Another option that had been talked about a long time ago (but never seemed to get implemented) was a route finder kiosk at Scotia Square. That way; you could put in your hotel or the corner of the streets you wanted to get too and then the computer would have the entire route schedule and map of routes and give you the top 5 options.

Another solution which could be done which would only require some reprogramming of the display screens on the buses is changing the information displayed. If people don't know that the 80 or the 20 go up SGR, then perhaps the sign should read (from Scotia Square) 80 Sackville via SGR or 20 Herring Cove via SGR. Then once the routes get beyond SGR, they change the sign to just say 80 Sackville/20 Herring Cove.

This way, you'd not only have the 1 showing Spring Garden Road but the 14, 20, 80 and whatever others would too...

[Dmajackson]

Another solution which could be done which would only require some reprogramming of the display screens on the buses is changing the information displayed. If people don't know that the 80 or the 20 go up SGR, then perhaps the sign should read (from Scotia Square) 80 Sackville via SGR or 20 Herring Cove via SGR. Then once the routes get beyond SGR, they change the sign to just say 80 Sackville/20 Herring Cove.

This way, you'd not only have the 1 showing Spring Garden Road but the 14, 20, 80 and whatever others would too...

I quite like this idea. Route 1 is the most popular route not only because of it linear routing between busy terminals but also because it clearly shows its destinations (Spring Garden to Dartmouth, Spring Garden to Mumford). Short routes like this one should have their final destination and a major destination shown. Longer routes should have final destination and incremental "via" routing shown. Here are some examples (one directional) using the Bedford/Sackville routes;

80 - Sackville via Spring Garden, Sackville via Young/Bayers, Sackville via Bedford Hwy, Sackville via Sackville Drive
81 - Hemlocke Ravine via Spring Garden, Hemlocke Ravine via Young/Bayers, Hemlocke Ravine via Bedford Hwy
82 - Sackville via First Lake, Sackville via Millwood
83 - Springfield via Sackville Drive
84 - Sackville via Spring Garden, Sackville via Barrington, Sackville via Windmill, Sackville via Glendale
85 - Cobequid via Spring Garden, Cobequid via Barrington, Cobequid via Windmill, Cobequid via Hwy 101, Cobequid via Glendale
86 - Bedford via Spring Garden, Bedford via Gottingen, Bedford via MSVU, Bedford via Lacewood, Bedford via Basinview, Bedford via Sunnyside
87 - Sackville via Highfield, Sackville via Windmill, Sackville via Glendale
88 - Bedford Commons via Glendale/Duke
89 - Cobequid via Parkland, Cobequid via Atlantic Acres, Cobequid via Hammonds Plains Road (HPR for short), Cobequid via Sunnyside

[-Harlington-]

Bus terminal construction could start later in summer


Wed, Jul 6 - 4:54 AM

Halifax city hall is still waiting to start a $12-million bus terminal replacement project in Dartmouth, but ground could be broken at the development site later this summer.

Senior city staff told Halifax regional council Tuesday the Metro Transit project, in the works for years, is being reviewed by the provincial government with respect to the disposal of pyritic slate.

Council heard the province has given tentative approval to Halifax Regional Municipality’s slate management plan.

Also, a storm sewer situation had to be resolved before the project could move forward, municipal staff said.

Deputy mayor Jim Smith (Albro Lake-Harbourview) said he hopes the new bus depot, near the Dartmouth Sportsplex and Dartmouth High School, will be built soon.

He said "residents all over HRM have been diligently waiting for this project to get underway."

The term of the old tender for the project has expired.

Angry transit union executives have said the city should have built the terminal years ago.

"If they really want to get stuff done, you get it done," Ken Wilson, president of Local 508 of the Amalgamated Transit Union, told The Chronicle Herald in May.

[halifaxboyns]

I quite like this idea. Route 1 is the most popular route not only because of it linear routing between busy terminals but also because it clearly shows its destinations (Spring Garden to Dartmouth, Spring Garden to Mumford). Short routes like this one should have their final destination and a major destination shown. Longer routes should have final destination and incremental "via" routing shown. Here are some examples (one directional) using the Bedford/Sackville routes;

80 - Sackville via Spring Garden, Sackville via Young/Bayers, Sackville via Bedford Hwy, Sackville via Sackville Drive
81 - Hemlocke Ravine via Spring Garden, Hemlocke Ravine via Young/Bayers, Hemlocke Ravine via Bedford Hwy
82 - Sackville via First Lake, Sackville via Millwood
83 - Springfield via Sackville Drive
84 - Sackville via Spring Garden, Sackville via Barrington, Sackville via Windmill, Sackville via Glendale
85 - Cobequid via Spring Garden, Cobequid via Barrington, Cobequid via Windmill, Cobequid via Hwy 101, Cobequid via Glendale
86 - Bedford via Spring Garden, Bedford via Gottingen, Bedford via MSVU, Bedford via Lacewood, Bedford via Basinview, Bedford via Sunnyside
87 - Sackville via Highfield, Sackville via Windmill, Sackville via Glendale
88 - Bedford Commons via Glendale/Duke
89 - Cobequid via Parkland, Cobequid via Atlantic Acres, Cobequid via Hammonds Plains Road (HPR for short), Cobequid via Sunnyside

The route 10 here in Calgary has 4 message changes along the route. One at each end and then two at the midpoint, for each direction.

[Dmajackson]

The route 10 here in Calgary has 4 message changes along the route. One at each end and then two at the midpoint, for each direction.

That route number rings a bell. Is it the main bus route that runs from City Centre (in front of the Bow) north over the river, up the main drag to some sprawly parking lot in the 'burbs? I think I used it quite a bit last summer :P

[halifaxboyns]

Halifax looks for faster ferry
CBC News
Posted: Jul 12, 2011 6:00 PM AT

Halifax has tested fast ferries in the past, but is now on the market for a new design.Halifax has tested fast ferries in the past, but is now on the market for a new design. CBC

Halifax's Metro Transit is in the market for a faster ferry — but not the much-discussed fast ferry to Bedford.

Instead, the transit authority is looking for a vessel that could double the speed of the current fleet and improve times on the Woodside-to-Halifax run. It also wants to expand that service beyond peak hours.

The rest of the story can be found here (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/07/12/ns-new-halifax-ferry.html).

[Dmajackson]

SURPRISE!!! Metro Transit once again gives the cold shoulder to Bedford. Even the idea of adding basic and necessary bus routes to our growing community is unfathomable let alone long-promise transit plans. A BRT is pointless (worst traffic in HRM), a new ferry is apparently impossible to a place thats had one running for centuries, and Metro Transit won't even admit Bedford has a rail-line.

For the past two years Metro Transit has secretly cut down hours on most of Bedford's existing routes, it has scrapped the plans for a fast ferry and completely ignored calls for a study on rail. It has taken the new buses promised to the Bedford-Sackville area for growth and used them on new and expanded routes in Mainland Halifax, Downtown and Dartmouth only (no new routes out here and the ones from 2008 has a headway of 2 hours now). The report that identified the need to reroute the 87 through Bedford was bashed in by MT officials because it would cause a small delay for Sackville riders (which have multiple identical routes and a Link).

Bedford has over 20'000 residents and to this day no new bus routes are planned for the area. There is no terminal in Bedford (yet Sackville has three and rural Tantallon has a Park 'N Ride), and connections to other terminals are horrendous at best. There is no direct link to Mumford, Bridge, or Alderney Terminals. The most direct full-time route heading into the Urban Core takes 1 hour 15 minutes to get downtown during rush-hour (real time not scheduled hence why the 80 is constantly late). Hell transit service in Bedford is so bad we have our own jokes about Metro Transit. Here's some you know you use Bedford buses when ...

- A good commute is standing room only for an hour straight,
- You use the oldest bus in the fleet multiple times a week and have experienced it breaking down before,
- You have time to take a nap, read the Metro front to back and complete the sudoku all on one bus ride,
- Hearing your bus is an hour and a half late doesn't surprise you,
- Your bus isn't 2 minutes early, its 28 minutes late,
- You know every building on all the main roads in HRM,
- The concept of an express route confuses you,
- You don't question why the Bedford Commons is only accessible from Sackville,
- Your cyclist friend has a faster commute than you,
- You live in the centre of town and don't have to pay the 500m transit tax.

anyways I will stop ranting here and leave with this one quirky fact; No Metro Transit route has Bedford written in its name or routing description.

[halifaxboyns]

I don't know if I would take it the same with DJ is...

The existing ferries are old, they do need to be replaced soon. Especially in light of rising fuel costs, newer boats are more fuel efficient.

I made a couple comments on that article and my focus was on a common fleet. If you have the same type of vessel operating on the existing routes, you have the ability to reduce your costs for training, maintenance and facilities because it's the same boat, same parts, same training and same building design (more or less). Then you also have the ability in peek times to move the boats faster, so the trip time reduces. This could lead to greater frequency of trips in peak hours to and from downtown (and could be increased for special events too).

The bonus I see is that with a common vessel is that the same boat that may run between Dartmouth and Halifax today could do a run from Bedford to Halifax tomorrow. You end up with capacity that can be shifted, where demand warrents.

Woodside should be the focus because the infrastructure is there now. But that doesn't mean that the next step after Woodside goes 7 days a week shouldn't be Bedford. The problem I see is that the ferry terminal is built into that man-made island concept, which will take years to build out (unless there is a concept for a temporary facility while the island is created).

It will probably take about 10 years to get all the vessels built and delivered, in which time a lot of progress could be made on the Bedford West infill. By that point, Bedford will be the next logical step.

[Nouvellecosse]

I just hope that the new ones will have top deck open. Van Seabuses are enclosed and I think that would suck.

[someone123]

I agree that Bedford has bad transit. Unfortunately, it's difficult to serve because of its transportation network (sprawly subdivisions and only a couple of main routes) and distance from Halifax.

I'm not sure how much faith I have that they will have suitable new ferries operating by 2014, but it would be great to have a standard ferry capable of serving Dartmouth/Woodside as well as Bedford and Herring Cove. Pretty soon traffic will be bad enough in Bedford that ferry speeds can be pretty slow yet still be worthwhile. A train would be better but the chances of that getting out to Bedford at some point during the next 10 years is approximately zero.

[halifaxboyns]

I agree that Bedford has bad transit. Unfortunately, it's difficult to serve because of its transportation network (sprawly subdivisions and only a couple of main routes) and distance from Halifax.

I'm not sure how much faith I have that they will have suitable new ferries operating by 2014, but it would be great to have a standard ferry capable of serving Dartmouth/Woodside as well as Bedford and Herring Cove. Pretty soon traffic will be bad enough in Bedford that ferry speeds can be pretty slow yet still be worthwhile. A train would be better but the chances of that getting out to Bedford at some point during the next 10 years is approximately zero.

Both train and ferry are dependant upon the infill project at Mill Cove to be done. I'm not sure how long it will take, but with either a temporary terminal could be created will the 'infill island' is built.

[pblaauw]

"The next bus on route 1 will depart in 11 minutes. The following bus will depart in 11 minutes."

This doesn't sound to me like GoTime is following the schedule. At least, not this particular stop. (Quinpool/Oxford, outside the theatre, southbound.)

It also renders that specific call to GoTime pretty useless.

[Keith P.]

You never know with Metro Transit. That could indeed be their schedule. :)

[ewjonsson]

"The next bus on route 1 will depart in 11 minutes. The following bus will depart in 11 minutes."

This doesn't sound to me like GoTime is following the schedule. At least, not this particular stop. (Quinpool/Oxford, outside the theatre, southbound.)

It also renders that specific call to GoTime pretty useless.

To me this is a good thing. Metro Transit recently updated GoTime to provide more real-time information, so it sounds like the bus was late, the system told you about it, and then told you the next scheduled bus. Obviously a few kinks need to be worked out, but I think it is one step closer to having access to the entire Metro Transit GPS system.

As for improved transit to Bedford, I was just at a briefing put on by city staffers and the acting GM of Metro Transit, and it didn't look too good. The point that was brought up was that both the proposed ferry landing and all the train stations have one large flaw: half of the geographic area they would serve is the basin. Now the solution to this is to put a large park and ride lot there, but nobody would want to put a huge parking lot directly on valuable waterfront land, especially in Bedford. The engineer from the city seemed more anti-train than anything, so I figure a ferry would have more chance of success.

I really hope that we can get some more ferry routes going in Halifax, but after that meeting, I am not gonna hold my breath. The best we can hope for is improved bus service.

ps: on a side note, I was thinking about biking around the Basin this weekend, DJ can you recommend a good route or is the Bedford highway to Windmill my best bet?

[Keith P.]

The engineer from the city seemed more anti-train than anything, so I figure a ferry would have more chance of success.


HRM and Metro Transit officials have been anti-rail for some time now, so this is no surprise. Seems odd since the ferry is such an inferior option by comparison.

[Dmajackson]

ps: on a side note, I was thinking about biking around the Basin this weekend, DJ can you recommend a good route or is the Bedford highway to Windmill my best bet?

Biking up the Magazine Hill is unbelievably hard and dangerous so I'd recommend head outbound (northbound) on the Bedford Highway. At Meadowbrook Drive (where the bike lanes end) there is a path connecting to Shore Drive. I'd head down Shore Drive to Wardour (third intersection) and over to Dartmouth Road which after climbing an annoyingly long hill will put you on the Magazine Hill (downhill). Bikes are banned from the Victoria Road Overpass so once you get through Burnside turn down Windmill Road.

[halifaxboyns]

HRM and Metro Transit officials have been anti-rail for some time now, so this is no surprise. Seems odd since the ferry is such an inferior option by comparison.

I don't think I agree that a ferry is a bad option. It's an easier and different option.

Rail has the advantage of being able to extend further into the burbs, because you could hit mill cove, but then also Sunnyside and have a major park and ride lot at Windsor Junction and then extend up into Beaverbank. This would then give the option to extend service down to Windsor. On the flip side, you could also extend the rail service up the CN main line to Wellington and Grand Lake. Obviously a ferry can't extend to those locations, so it's weak in that sense.

But, a high speed ferry has the advantage of not being restricted in it's routing. So while you could have service to downtown during rush hours, you could also operate a ferry over to Dartmouth (say to the Akerley area) and establish a terminal that serves Burnside. You could also provide a route to downtown Dartmouth, or if a stadium were built at Shannon Park, a special route to a ferry terminal there (from Bedford) on event days could ease traffic. Plus, capacity wise, the two can easily provide good capacity to get people to and from the destinations each route serves.

For me, ferry has a slight edge over rail because the route is not restricted and can change as needed.

[Keith P.]

Ferries are inferior in several ways. Unlike other options they are severely limited in capacity because of the cost of the ferries themselves. At best we would hope to have 2 or 3 or 4 (boy, more opium!!) fast ferries, each with capacity of perhaps 200 souls. That would cost somewhere in the vicinity of $100 million not including the land-based infrastructure required. They would move a limited number of people compared to other options. And then of course you are dealing with having to move across rough water in poor weather and the reasonable fear many people have of doing exactly that. And remember that a "fast" ferry is not really fast. The current scows travel at 8 knots and the fast versions are said to average double that speed. That is still very slow compared to rail or BRT. And while they may not be limited by routing, they are limited by having a place to dock. No, ferries are always going to be inferior.