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waterloowarrior
Oct 27, 2007, 5:37 PM
Former CFB Rockcliffe Redevelopment - Proposed
The DND has recently turned this 310 acre parcel of land over to the Canada Lands Company, who have contracted architects to come up with a preliminary configuration for how the land will be appropriated. Design process scheduled for completion at year-end 2008.
Developer: Unknown
Location: South of Ottawa River, north of Montreal Rd., west of NRC, east of St. Laurent Blvd.
Web: http://www.clcrockcliffe.ca/
Rendering:
http://www.clcrockcliffe.ca/images/rockcliffeAeriallg.jpg


Rockcliffe Redevelopment latest concept plan..




The presentation is available at ftp://ftp.rockcliffe.astleygilbert.com/

username: rk-public
password: agr7825

public folder --- web concept file (english or french)


http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/landuseresize.jpg


http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/rockcliffedensityresize.jpg



http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/airbasemodelresize.jpg







http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/density.jpg

keninhalifax
Nov 8, 2007, 12:15 PM
Hey all,

Ken Greenberg was here in Halifax last night to give a presentation for the annual Killam Lecture series. He featured his work in the Port Lands in Toronto as well as the Rockcliffe redevelopment. He showed some fascinating slides of the drawings that the team came up with while the proposal was still a work in progress, most of which were not shown at his public presentations in Ottawa over the past year.

I had to compliment him on the positive impact this project is having on the development discourse in Ottawa. Here's hoping the community develops according to his fantastic vision.

waterloowarrior
Nov 29, 2007, 4:43 AM
looks like further delays


Canada Lands pulls plug on huge Rockcliffe development


Maria Cook,
Ottawa Citizen

Published: Wednesday, November 28, 2007

The Crown corporation hoping to turn the former Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe into the largest environmentally sustainable community in Canada has closed its office on the base because a native land claim has blocked the sale of the property indefinitely.

"It didn't make a lot of sense to continue operation of that office until the property was actually sold to us," said Gordon McIvor, spokesman for the Canada Lands Company.

"There are no indications whatsoever that it would be forthcoming any time in the near future."

The 135-hectare former airbase is part of an outstanding claim for most of Eastern Ontario by Ontario's Algonquins, who are in negotiations with the provincial and federal governments.

There are almost 900 claims filed by native communities across the country and they are a source of discontent. Every recent native land blockade from Oka to Gustafson Lake, B.C., and in Ontario at Ipperwash and Caledonia, is the result of an unresolved land claim.

After eight years on site, Canada Lands closed its office two weeks ago and terminated four employees. Two were transferred to other Canada Lands projects in Ottawa.

"We kept hoping that the sale by the Department of National Defence would occur year after year," said Mr. McIvor, adding that the average time for a federal land transfer is two or three years. "There were a lot of complexities we did not foresee."

Is the project dead? "Absolutely not," he said. "We're still totally committed. The project is not cancelled. It's delayed."

Robert Potts, the aboriginal claims negotiator leading the Algonquin bargaining team, said the group wants a stake in the development of the base. This could include profit-sharing, a piece of land or a joint development venture with Canada Lands.

"The project itself looked fabulous," he said. "It's just the question of what role do we play in it," he said.

Canada Lands, which disposes of vacant federal property, has been
developing plans for an environmentally sustainable community for 10,000 to 15,000 people.

The 12-year plan calls for a mix of 4,500 to 6,000 houses and apartments, as well as offices, research institutions, shops and parks. It features alternative energy sources and "green" design and construction.

Construction was supposed to start in late 2008, with the first residents moving in by 2009.

"It's really unfortunate that this project can't go ahead," said Jane Brammer, who heads a group of community associations monitoring the development.

"This was a chance to be ahead of the curve on sustainability," she said.

"The design was taking shape, the pictures were becoming more detailed, and now we're languishing. We've lost the momentum. There's a large chunk of land inside the greenbelt that is dormant."

So far, Canada Lands has prepared a concept plan, surveyed plant species, begun considering aspects of traffic, engineering and sustainability and held two public open houses.

"A fair amount was spent," said Mr. McIvor. "It wasn't exorbitant. None of that is lost. Ultimately we will be able to use that information."

Robert Howald, Canada Lands vice-president for real estate in the eastern region, sent a notice last week to the public advisory committee providing input on the project.

"Given that these negotiations may take some time to complete, we cannot continue to dedicate funds and resources to this redevelopment project when we do not have title to the property and there is no certainty when it will be received," he wrote.

"Canada Lands continues to believe that the redevelopment of the Rockcliffe site represents a significant opportunity to create a unique, pedestrian-friendly urban community in Ottawa."

Two years ago, the federal Treasury Board approved the sale of the land for $27 million to Canada Lands, which had been trying to buy it from the Defence Department since 1996.

However, last May, Canada Lands announced it would slow work on the project since it did not yet have title. A spokesman said the agency hoped that Rockcliffe could be negotiated separately from the overall native land claim and settled within months.

"It probably can't be negotiated separately," Mr. Potts said yesterday.
"We're still looking at this as part of an overall settlement package,
although there's nothing to prevent us from going forward with something shortly. We will likely be engaged in pretty serious discussions in the new year."

Mr. Potts said he didn't know how long it will take. "We're in the midst right now of putting together a proposal for the governments to ponder. We have committed ourselves to try to get an agreement in principle by 2010."

Last June, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced an overhaul of the government's land claims process.

Starting in January, he said the government would dedicate $250 million a year toward land claim settlements and it would create an independent quasi-judicial tribunal to impose settlements on claims in which the government and native bands cannot agree.

"As part of the negotiations on the land claim, the government of Canada is working with the Algonquin on measures to address their interest in the Rockcliffe property while ensuring at the same time that the project proceeds in a timely fashion," a spokeswoman for the federal Department of Indian and Northern Affairs told the Citizen.

"The negotiators for Canada, Ontario and the Algonquin are hoping to conclude an interim agreement on consultation in the coming months."

It now takes more than a decade for most claims to be resolved, and the federal government estimates its land claim liabilities at about $15 billion.

The Algonquin claim covers an area of 3.5 million hectares (36,000 square kilometres), including most of Algonquin Park as well as the national capital region.

The claim was formally submitted to the Government of Canada in 1983 and the Government of Ontario in 1985 by the Algonquins of Golden Lake (now known as the Algonquins of Pikwakanagan).

The Ontario government accepted the claim for negotiations in 1991 and the Canadian government in 1992.

Negotiations collapsed in 2001. But in 2005, the Golden Lake Algonquins joined forces with nine other Ottawa- area Algonquin communities to elect a new negotiating team. In January 2006, Canada and Ontario agreed to restart negotiations.

Mille Sabords
Nov 29, 2007, 1:59 PM
Good. Maybe now we can start from scratch and get a real New Urbanist plan for those lands, instead of the suburban yawnfest CLC was going to serve up. I was pumped about this until I saw the initial CLC proposal - little residential pods separated by little greenbelts, separated from the rest of the city by another greenbelt. Wrong wrong wrong. I want Garrison Woods here, and nothing less.

Jamaican-Phoenix
Nov 29, 2007, 3:31 PM
:previous: I don't know about that. Looking at some of the renderings adn their plans for the area, it doesn't seem that bad. Granted, it's not as good as it could be, but it's not horrible either...

eemy
Nov 29, 2007, 3:41 PM
Good. Maybe now we can start from scratch and get a real New Urbanist plan for those lands, instead of the suburban yawnfest CLC was going to serve up. I was pumped about this until I saw the initial CLC proposal - little residential pods separated by little greenbelts, separated from the rest of the city by another greenbelt. Wrong wrong wrong. I want Garrison Woods here, and nothing less.

I dunno. The diagrams above look a lot better than any suburban development I've ever seen, and New Urbanist development too for that matter.

waterloowarrior
Jan 24, 2009, 7:17 PM
aerial by southfacing (top right corner)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3307/3218382835_a2b4802227_o.jpg

Davis137
Jan 25, 2009, 8:33 PM
That'd be awesome, all of it...if they went through with a development that big...I like the fact that they want to include mid-rise and high rises in the plan included with all the smaller residential units. This would add a nice little skyline and density to the northeast end of the city...

waterloowarrior
Jan 26, 2009, 9:46 PM
http://www.pfs.bc.ca/img_proj/proj_community_01_e.jpg

http://www.pfs.bc.ca/html_proj/proj_community.shtml?01

waterloowarrior
May 14, 2009, 2:57 AM
Rockcliffe base to fully close July 31

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Rockcliffe+base+fully+close+July/1593585/story.html
BY MARIA COOK, THE OTTAWA CITIZENMAY 13, 2009 10:33 PMBE THE FIRST TO POST A COMMENT


OTTAWA — As of July 31, the remaining military houses and buildings at the former Rockcliffe air base will be closed. No decision has been made yet regarding roads, OC Transpo routes and public access to the site.

A spokeswoman for the Department of National Defence said the decision was made to close the 135-hectare site in 2009 rather than 2011 as planned because of aging infrastructure and the cost of maintaining 430 houses — $1.8 million last year.

The Rockcliffe Driving Range and the Viscount Alexander Park Community Centre will also close.

The City of Ottawa has been renting 20 houses on the site as emergency shelters. Stephen Arbuckle, the city’s manager of social housing, said he expects tenants will receive offers for social housing units by the end of July.

The federal Canada Lands Company, which hopes to develop the site, will move its office elsewhere in Ottawa.

A native land claim blocked the sale of the former air base to CLC in 2007, delaying plans for a residential eco-district for up to 15,000 people.

A spokeswoman for the department of Indian and Native Affairs said negotiations are continuing, but the situation hasn’t changed much since 2007.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

waterloowarrior
May 25, 2009, 9:29 PM
Development of prime, 330-acre piece of Ottawa real estate remains in limbo
http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1581832
Posted By LAURA CZEKAJ, SUN MEDIA

Posted 10 hours ago

It's a prime piece of land aching to be developed.

The former bustling Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe has come to exude a ghost town-like feel after the departure of military personnel over the past decade.

Of the 468 housing units on the base, 24 are currently occupied with 20 being used by the city as short-term transition housing for social housing tenants. There are also four buildings and several garages.

Most of the base's structures have been left alone to face the effects of time and weather.

Earlier this month, the Department of National Defence, which retains ownership of the property, announced it was closing the base for good. The remaining residents will be relocated as of July 31.

DND says the site will be secured to prevent security risks and property damage. Houses will be boarded up and utilities will be disconnected.

The decision to shutter the site two years ahead of schedule was made based on the deterioration of the buildings.

The 330-acre property is a rare development gem because it's one of the largest unused pieces of land within the Greenbelt.

The land remains a DND asset for the interim. The department plans to sell the property to the Canada Lands Company -- a Crown corporation that sells surplus federal property to the private sector -- with about 25 acres going to the National Capital Commission.

The transfer was put on hold in 2006 due to a Native land claim.

CLC spokesman Gordon McIver said the claim sidelined plans to turn the site into a "showcase" development that incorporates environmental and social sustainability elements.

Continued After Advertisement Below

Advertisement

Local resident and community advocate Jane Brammer calls the CLC's proposed residential development "visionary." She said residents are disappointed the plans were set aside.

A change of leadership at the CLC is why the project is in limbo, not the Native land claim, says Gianni. (Former CEO Jim Lynes championed the Rockcliffe project.)

The concern is that the longer the project is delayed, the more likely the CLC will sell the land to the highest bidder, he adds.

Article ID# 1581832

waterloowarrior
Aug 9, 2009, 4:04 AM
crazykittylady took a few shots of the old base (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79435154@N00/sets/72157621843498773/), which just officially closed

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2637/3797271064_65b4c5dbae.jpg

Adieu CFB Rockcliffe
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Adieu+Rockcliffe/1846627/story.html
The memories are piling up as the last residents pack up their belongings and prepare to leave their homes for good, reports Joanne Laucius.

BY JOANNE LAUCIUS, THE OTTAWA CITIZENJULY 31, 2009


OTTAWA — By Saturday, Shawn King will officially be the last man on the former Rockcliffe air base.

Today, without ceremony, the base is to officially close, with the last of 430 military homes save King’s tidy blue Cape Cod closed up. Soon, workers will swarm over the 135-hectare site, boarding up homes that haven’t already been shuttered due to vandalism.

“This was my life,” said King, surveying his garden and two vintage Bricklin cars he is restoring.

On Thursday, only a handful of residents were left, most of them putting their belongings into moving vans and setting garbage out on the curb.

A block away, Marcel Gerard stood on the cracked driveway of an almost identical Cape Cod, this one beige, with two lawn mowers and a barbecue ready to be moved to a house he and his wife, Camille, have purchased near Arnprior.

“It’s like a ghost town,” says Gerard, a military selection officer — he helps determine proper occupations and training for Canadian Forces personnel. “It’s peaceful, but creepy. All the sidewalks are still there, but there are trees growing out of them. You could shoot a good post-apocalyptic movie here. A zombie movie.”

Occasionally, a military police vehicle cruises down abandoned streets with names like Mars and Jupiter, Battle of Britain, Canuck and True North.

A crew armed with weed whippers clears the worst of the shaggy growth from overgrown lawns. One deep pothole is filled with cement blocks. King has posted a hand-lettered “dead end” sign at the top of his street, the improbably named Via Venus Private, because gawkers are ignoring the street sign.

What appears to be a cat suns itself on the porch of a pale blue house with weeds in the eaves-troughing. On closer inspection, it’s a groundhog that waddles away to a hole in the lawn.

“Nature doesn’t stand still for anybody,” observes Gerard, noting the groundhogs have become increasingly bold, taunting his dogs in their own backyard.

King, a former military communications operator and still a Department of National Defence employee, will live for the next month on Via Venus Private in the Cape Cod, one of hundreds of small, efficient homes built in the early 1950s to house military families.

King and his partner, Rick Frenette, had lived on the former CFB Rockcliffe for 11 years, but knew they would have to move. The former base was to become home to an ambitious redevelopment, a residential eco-district for up to 15,000 people. But plans were put on hold after a native land claim blocked the sale of the land in 2007.

The base was to close in 2011, but the Department of National Defence moved up the date because of the $1.8 million a year it was costing to heat the vacant houses and maintain the aging infrastructure.

There are no plans to keep people off the site after it is closed, says a Canadian Forces Support Unit spokeswoman, but the area will be patrolled by military police. Since 2003, the City of Ottawa had used 19 of the houses as emergency social housing. The last two families are moving this week, said a spokeswoman for the city.

Like Gerard and the last few remaining residents, King and Frenette had planned to move as well. But Frenette had a massive stroke about a month ago and died a few days later. Devastated, King asked the housing office for special permission to remain for an extra month.

“Rick made friends with everyone. Everyone from (the) housing came to the funeral,” he says.

So did King’s old military friends. “Even though we don’t wear the uniform, the camaraderie is still there,” he says.

King’s yard is home to the vintage Bricklins he and Frenette were restoring. The carcasses of more Bricklins — the gull-winged sports cars manufactured in New Brunswick in the mid-1970s — are in an eight-unit garage down the street being repaired by fellow Bricklin devotees.

Alarmed by two break-ins and increasing vandalism in the neighbourhood in recent years, King and Frenette acquired two Neapolitan mastiffs, Devin and Diesel. Devin, the larger of the two dogs at 180 pounds, dozed on the front porch during the interview.

King and his huge canine companions walk every evening to Frenette’s grave at the nearby National Military Cemetery at Beechwood, where he was buried as a military spouse.

When Gerard moved into his Cape Cod in 2003, the base was already winding down. The mass exodus began about two years ago, says Gerard, who liked living on the base for its big yards and solitude.

“We’re the last hangers-on,” he says.

Last week, a woman asked to see the inside of Gerard’s home, explaining that she first moved into the house as a three-year-old in 1952. Her family was the first to live in the house after it was built, she explained. Except for a few cosmetic changes, it was the same as it had been more than five decades ago.

“It was very emotional,” says Gerard.

“She was the first person, and I was the last

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

kwoldtimer
Aug 9, 2009, 1:48 PM
I have driven through the area many times. It seems such a waste that the housing units on the base will now sit empty until the land claims issue is settled and development takes place. Something tells me it might be a long wait.

I wonder if anyone more familiar with the Canada Lands development proposal knows what the plan entails for Hemlock? It seems not to be mentioned much but major development on this site would seem to imply a widening of Hemlock/Beechwood into a four lane arterial road, as it would be the most direct link to the downtown (along with Montreal Rd) - I imagine that Manor Park (not to mention Rockcliffe and New Edinburgh) would have a major fit over such a prospect, given their hyper-ventilation over a possible Kettle Island bridge. Would I be wrong to anticipate an eventual battle royal between the city and three very powerful community associations?

waterloowarrior
Oct 22, 2010, 10:27 AM
Decision pending on former Rockcliffe air base
 http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Decision+pending+former+Rockcliffe+base/3708623/story.html
Talks result in ‘great news’ for First Nations
 
BY KATHERINE DUNN, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN OCTOBER 22, 2010 COMMENTS

Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe, once slated to become Canada’s first eco-neighbourhood, may finally see new life.

Negotiations over a land claim between the Algonquins of Eastern Ontario and the federal government, which delayed the sale of the deserted air base for more than four years, have finally ended, according to the Algonquins’ lawyer.

“I can’t get into the details,” said Robert Potts, who led the negotiating team. However, he said the agreement that will give the First Nations people a say in the land’s development is “great news.”

The decision was made in September, he said, but has not been formally released.

A spokeswoman for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development said the new agreement is a memorandum of understanding that the federal government will eventually “provide the Algonquins with funds to enable them to participate in the redevelopment of the site with the Canada Lands Company.” That’s the Crown corporation that disposes of surplus federal property and was set to buy the land in 2005 from the Department of National Defence.

Geneviève Guibert wrote in an e-mail that the memorandum is only part of a larger settlement package for the Algonquin land claim that hasn’t been finalized. Potts said he hopes that will be squared away in the next 18 months or so.

Canada Lands Co. has long been the heir apparent for development of the base, prime real estate only 51ž2 kilometres from Parliament Hill.

In 2005, the Treasury Board gave DND the go-ahead to sell the land for $27 million. Canada Lands began the design for what it hoped would be a new kind of community.

Rockcliffe Landing was to be home for between 12,000 and 15,000 people, dwarfing many of its neighbours, including Rockcliffe Park and Vanier. A mix of businesses and homes, it was intended to be a magnet for green building and sustainable design. Architects and urban planners were hired from across the country to design the community.

A year after the sale was approved, the transfer stalled when 10 Algonquin groups made a land claim covering 36,000 square kilometres around the capital region, including the air base.

A land claim is an assertion that native land was taken without a formal treaty, or under a treaty whose conditions the government didn’t honour. It is the federal government’s policy to not sell any property it owns that is covered by such a claim.

In 2007, while negotiations continued, Canada Lands’ offices at the base were shut down. In 2009, the last residents of the defunct base moved out. The roads into the base have since been blocked off.

Ottawa-Vanier MP Mauril Bélanger said DND has commissioned a company to tear down the last of the buildings.

“(Canada Lands) had ceased all the operations because the land was not forthcoming,” Bélanger said.

No one knew when work on the site would begin again.

The new agreement could refresh Canada Lands’ ambitious plans. Potts and Bélanger say the sale is expected within 18 months. But even when the sale is made, the construction plan won’t be simple.

“Architecturally and construction-wise it could be built in one, two, three years; it doesn’t take long to build,” said John Cook, a partner with Ottawa’s GRC Architects. “It’s really building them and selling (the buildings) … I suspect it’s going to be a 10- to 15-year process.”

Both Bélanger and Rideau-Rockcliffe Councillor Jacques Legendre caution that a community does not just appear once housing is built.

“That’s a town the size of Hawkesbury,” said Legendre. “Hawkesbury does not have just bedrooms.”

But support for a well-designed, sustainable community largely had support from the surrounding neighbourhoods.

“I’d never seen an example of significant redevelopment … being proposed with so much community acceptance,” the councillor said.

Hopes for a new project continue, despite the changes the years have brought.

“It was moving forward in an absolutely fantastic way,” said Legendre.

With files from Maria Cook

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Jamaican-Phoenix
Oct 22, 2010, 11:10 AM
I really hope it becomes a high-density eco-neighbourhood that has some nice architecture and features.

reidjr
Oct 22, 2010, 11:36 AM
I really hope it becomes a high-density eco-neighbourhood that has some nice architecture and features.

Do you think that is likely.

Proof Sheet
Oct 22, 2010, 12:47 PM
Do you think that is likely.

It could end up as Hawkesbury:slob:

http://goo.gl/maps/EOJb

Jamaican-Phoenix
Oct 22, 2010, 2:29 PM
Do you think that is likely.

In this town? Not really...

eternallyme
Oct 22, 2010, 7:07 PM
Why not just re-zone it industrial or institutional and consolidate some of the federal government offices currently in bad locations there? Make it the Tunney's Pasture of the east end.

The biggest downside is the lack of rapid transit there (and little potential for such, unless a service were to be implemented along a future interprovincial bridge there).

Uhuniau
Oct 23, 2010, 4:09 AM
Why not just re-zone it industrial or institutional and consolidate some of the federal government offices currently in bad locations there? Make it the Tunney's Pasture of the east end.

The biggest downside is the lack of rapid transit there (and little potential for such, unless a service were to be implemented along a future interprovincial bridge there).

Well, the soopergeniuses did approve a study of a Montreal Road corridor before the canned it.

They also then came up with the brilliant idea of dropping 15% of the runs on Route 12, and replacing most of the artics with 40-footers.

LeadingEdgeBoomer
Mar 19, 2011, 3:36 AM
Deal clears way for Rockcliffe sale: MP

By KELLY ROCHE, Ottawa Sun

Last Updated: March 18, 2011 8:37pm

. The redevelopment of the former CFB Rockcliffe site could be back on the table sooner than later after a four-year stall.

The Algonquins of Ontario have agreed to a financial settlement, clearing the way for the project, according to Ottawa-Vanier MP Mauril Belanger.

Just how much money they’re receiving isn’t known.

An Algonquin land claim dispute has been blocking the sale of the lucrative 126-hectare property —worth almost $30 million several years ago — from the Department of National Defence to the Canada Lands Company since 2007.

Belanger told the Sun he learned about the agreement three weeks ago when he went to Golden Lake to meet Chief Kirby Whiteduck of the Pikwekanagan First Nation.

But the Algonquins’ lead negotiator said “it would be a bit premature,” to call it a done deal.

“There has been an agreement reached between the CLC, DND, and the Algonquins with respect to the ultimate development of the property,” said Robert Potts, principal negotiator and senior legal counsel for the Algonquins of Ontario.

He said all parties were “very pleased” and the redevelopment will be sensitive to Algonquin interests and culture.

“There will be some commercial value as well,” Potts said.

Potts said he thinks the situation “will be a win-win.”

The old air force base near the Ottawa River once housed about 500 military families and was decommissioned in 1994, after almost 100 years of service.

The site — originally slated to close in 2011— was shut down on July 31, 2009. Chosen as one of the six original Canadian airfields, the base was sealed off in fall 2009 as demolition began.

The Sun’s calls to DND to confirm the resolution were referred to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada.

“There’s no settlement yet, no update,” said Genevieve Guibert, spokeswoman for INAC. “It’s still ongoing.”

Guibert referred back to a statement sent from INAC to the Sun, outlining a memorandum of understanding between Canada and the Algonquins of Ontario signed last September.

The MOU allows the future transfer of the Rockcliffe lands from DND to the CLC and will “enable the Algonquins to take advantage of future economic development opportunities on the Rockcliffe redevelopment site.”

When a final claim settlement is signed, “Canada will provide the Algonquins with financial resources enabling them to participate in the redevelopment of the site and benefit from future economic activity in the area,” the statement reads.

The site is one of Ottawa’s biggest brownfields and is close to Parliament Hill.

Geographically speaking, the site is “definitely worth a lot of money,” said Rick Seguin from Pigeon-Roy Real Estate Advisory Group.

Seguin, a commercial real estate appraiser, said because so many levels of government are involved in the project it’s hard to put a value on the land and factors such as zoning and intensification complicate things.

About five years ago, public consultations were held by the CLC.

One project, dubbed Rockcliffe Landing, saw the creation of 4,500 to 5,000 housing units, stores and offices in eight neighbourhoods.

Potts said he thinks the situation “will be a win-win.”

kelly.roche@sunmedia.ca

Coukld have quite an impact on Ottawa if this goes ahead. A lot of new residnts not far from the downtown core.

McC
Mar 19, 2011, 11:16 AM
the original concept plans looked really good too. Not for the first time, I think we'll regret having cancelled plans to send rapid transit out that way.

Norman Bates
Mar 19, 2011, 1:02 PM
The original redevelopment plan can be seen in this thread:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140088

kwoldtimer
Mar 19, 2011, 1:42 PM
the original concept plans looked really good too. Not for the first time, I think we'll regret having cancelled plans to send rapid transit out that way.

I still wonder about the implications for Hemlock/Beechwood of this development. It would seem to me that they are going to have to be widened to carry the increased traffic, but I have never seen any mention of it. :shrug:

lrt's friend
Mar 19, 2011, 6:09 PM
I have to agree with McC. Another mistake in developing our revised Transportation Master Plan. It was like those involved in developing the new plan believed that there was no wisdom in the previous plan. Maybe this will limit the amount of intensification that can be implemented on the site to avoid overwhelming all the roads in the area. Our plans to make it a transit oriented community are going to be limited by the current TMP. That will be a sad turn of events.

Our efforts to create a transit oriented suburb have already been destroyed. It looks like the same for one of the few urban locations that we can develop from scratch. Larry O'Brien's legacy will last for generations.

ThePlanner
Mar 19, 2011, 6:36 PM
On a positive note, Montreal Road is still identified as a high-level transit corridor, allowing for TOD nearby. Very dense development occurring along Montreal Road may mean that while the train won't roll down Montreal Road in the near future, it'll increase demand for it in the longer-term future.

LeadingEdgeBoomer
Mar 24, 2011, 7:32 PM
looks like a land claims settlement will be signed very soon and this project can then proceed.


By KELLY ROCHE, Ottawa Sun

Last Updated: March 24, 2011 2:53pm

A $10 million settlement to the Algonquins of Ontario is in the works for the former CFB Rockcliffe site, the Sun has learned.

According to a preliminary participation agreement obtained by the Sun — which outlines the terms of the settlement but is unsigned — the federal government will pay the Algonquins $10 million for the rights to the land.

The amount was confirmed by Robert Potts, principal negotiator and senior legal counsel for the Algonquins of Ontario.

“It’s a piece of the overall puzzle,” said Potts.

The Department of National Defence was in the process of selling the 126-hectare property to the Canada Lands Company in 2007 but that came to a halt when an Algonquin land claim surfaced four years ago.

Potts said creating a modern-day treaty 200 years later has never been done in Ontario and is a unique process requiring careful deliberation.

“We’re endeavouring to reach an agreement in principle,” said Potts.

“It’s a very complicated, very detailed piece.”

Plans for redevelopment at Rockcliffe would begin soon after the transfer from DND to the CLC is finalized.

Once that happens, “the city will have a fairly significant say in what happens there,” said Ottawa-Vanier MP Mauril Belanger.

And public consultations would be part of that.

Several years ago, plans surfaced for a mixed use development with eight sections encompassing 4,500 to 5,000 housing units, stores and offices.

Starting prices for single-family homes in the posh North Ottawa neighbourhood were estimated at $1 million.

Roughly 10,000 to 15,000 people could call the former air force base home.

Belanger said he wants to see a plan for sustainability to avoid creating a bedroom community.

Citing the proximity of employment at the National Research Council facility, Belanger is hoping to see more jobs in the area.

“If you don’t have jobs in this community, everybody’s going to get in their cars and go to work,” he said.

Rideau-Rockcliffe Coun. Peter Clark — in whose ward the former base sits — said he’d like the Rockcliffe site to be as self-contained as possible.

That will be one of the challenges as developers bid for the project.

“There may not be anyone who can step to the plate and buy it all,” said Innes Coun. Rainer Bloess, who sits on the city’s planning committee.

Urban planning will play a key role and Clark said transportation studies will be done to demonstrate the new development will not be a burden on the existing community.

Bloess said the community will put “a new stamp or new face on Ottawa

rakerman
Mar 27, 2011, 4:33 PM
On a positive note, Montreal Road is still identified as a high-level transit corridor, allowing for TOD nearby. Very dense development occurring along Montreal Road may mean that while the train won't roll down Montreal Road in the near future, it'll increase demand for it in the longer-term future.

In the meantime they've made the NRC campus actually less transit-oriented. A fence now blocks the pathway that led to the Ogilvie street crossing to get to Blair Station, and the 190 local bus to the Transitway is being eliminated. As far as I can tell the only real way left to get to Blair Station now (which is supposed to become the east end of the LRT) is to take the 12 eastbound.

Plus which both the existing CSIS and the coming CSE building have hundreds of units of surface parking, probably at least 1000 spaces altogether, despite being a 5 minute walk from the Transitway.

reidjr
May 10, 2011, 10:41 AM
Canada Lands Company Confirms Acquisition of Landmark Site in Ottawa
Current Size: 100%


Source: Canada Lands Company
Location: Toronto, Ontario

May 9, 2011 -- Canada Lands Company CLC Limited (CLC) today confirmed that it has acquired the 310-acre (125 hectares) former Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe in Ottawa, Ontario, which it purchased from the Department of National Defence (DND). The sale was made possible after discussions and cooperation among DND, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, the Algonquins of Ontario (AOO) and CLC.



“This transaction has its complexities requiring much work and partnerships between many parties in order to arrive at where we are today. CLC is very pleased with the outcome and the opportunity to work with the City of Ottawa and its citizens, the development industry and the AOO to realize a signature redevelopment project in the National Capital Region”, said CLC President and CEO Mark Laroche.



CLC and the AOO have entered into a Participation Agreement, the core commercial element of which is a commitment on the part of CLC to offer certain blocks or lots for sale to the AOO at their fair market value up to an aggregate value of ten million dollars representing part of an anticipated Treaty settlement which is pending. This offering will occur after all planning approvals are in place and as phases of the redevelopment are rolled out by CLC.



The acquisition of development lands by the AOO represents a business opportunity for the AOO as well as an opportunity to incorporate within the development cultural and historical messages important to the Algonquins. Any land acquired and developed by the AOO will comply with the approved plan and all design or sustainability guidelines imposed by CLC on builders. This agreement represents a win-win solution for all parties, and enabled the acquisition and the planning and development of the property to move forward.



The site is located on an escarpment in the eastern part of the city. It boasts panoramic views of the Ottawa River and Gatineau hills and sight lines to the Peace Tower.



The property has deep roots as a former military site. In 1899, the Department of National Defence established the Rockcliffe Rifle Range. Many Canadian soldiers received their training at Rockcliffe. From the 1920s onward, the base's main vocation was military aviation. All DND activities on the site ended in 2009.



The company will now undertake a development process of the site, beginning with assembling a team of professionals. CLC looks forward to renewed consultations with the community and the City to create a vibrant mixed-used sustainable neighbourhood. More will be said about this as CLC’s development team and the consultation process takes shape over the coming months.



CLC is an arm’s length and self-financing federal Crown corporation. The company purchases federal properties at fair market value, and then improves and sells them to optimize the financial and community value. The company also owns and manages select properties such as the CN Tower, in Toronto. To learn more, please visit www.clc.ca.

harls
May 10, 2011, 2:23 PM
The original redevelopment plan can be seen in this thread:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140088

I've merged the threads together now.

rocketphish
May 10, 2011, 4:51 PM
and Canada Lands has also reactivated their webpage for this project:

http://www.clc.ca/properties/rockcliffe

McC
May 26, 2011, 1:39 PM
short update in the citizen
CFB Rockcliffe cleared for redevelopment
Wednesday, May 25, 2011
By Ian MacLeod, The Ottawa Citizen
Panoramic view from the Montreal Road access Road to the former Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe. OTTAWA — Canada Lands Company has purchased the former Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe.

“This transaction has its complexities requiring much work and partnerships between many parties in order to arrive at where we are today. CLC is very pleased with the outcome and the opportunity to work with the City of Ottawa and its citizens, the development industry and the (Algonquins of Ontario) to realize a signature redevelopment project in the National Capital Region,” company chief executive Mark Laroche said in a statement.

The reported $27.2-million purchase from the Department of National Defence was made possible with the settlement earlier this year between the Algonquins of Ontario and the federal government, which paid the band $10 million.

The Algonquins are also to have a say in the development of the 126-hectare property by Canada Lands Company, the Crown corporation that disposes of surplus federal property.

The property has deep roots as a former military site. In 1899, DND established the Rockcliffe Rifle Range. Many Canadian soldiers received their training at Rockcliffe. From the 1920s onward, the base’s main vocation was military aviation. All DND activities on the site ended in 2009.

The company says it is planning to build “a vibrant mixed-used sustainable neighbourhood.” No other details were offered.

waterloowarrior
Jun 10, 2012, 1:02 PM
CLC will be revisting the plan this fall

After a public open house in the fall, there will be two more public meetings. By the second and third meetings, at the end of 2012 and in spring of 2013, a community design plan will be presented for feedback.
After going through the municipal planning process, CLC will put in roads and the services and then sell serviced lots to builders.

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Rockcliffe+development+back+planning+stage/6758304/story.html#ixzz1xObpt9BO

gjhall
Nov 8, 2012, 3:27 PM
Update from the CLC, advertised in yesterday's Citizen as well:

CANADA LANDS COMPANY LAUNCHES ROCKCLIFFE REDEVELOPMENT IN OTTAWA

OTTAWA November 8, 2012 — Canada’s capital is one step closer to having a new and world class urban community just a few kilometres from Parliament Hill. After much anticipation, Canada Lands Company CLC Limited (CLC), owner since 2011 of the former Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe, announced today the renewal of planning and public consultation for the redevelopment of the property, which will begin with a community Ideas Fair slated for Monday, November 26, at the Canada Aviation and Space Museum.

“Rockcliffe represents one of the most significant community building opportunities in Ottawa”, said Robert Howald, Senior Vice President of Real Estate at Canada Lands Company.

This project is moving forward thanks to the collaboration of the Algonquins of Ontario (AOO), and the Participation Agreement struck between the AOO and CLC. The Agreement provides for ongoing consultation throughout the planning and development process as well as commemoration of Algonquin heritage and economic participation.

“We are pleased to participate with CLC in this exciting project which will celebrate the Algonquin presence in the Nation’s Capital while contributing to the economic vitality of the region,” said Robert J. Potts, Principal Negotiator and Senior Legal Counsel for the Algonquins of Ontario.

In keeping with CLC’s commitment to commemorating the legacy of its significant sites, CLC will honour the important military history as well as the First Nations heritage and legacy of the land.

“CLC is excited by the potential of this site as one of the city’s most promising canvases. We want to build a neighbourhood that the entire City of Ottawa can be proud of and we look forward to working with the community to help us create it”, CLC Senior VP Robert Howald added.

The company has just completed building its project team. Leading the development process for this property is CLC’s real estate director for Rockcliffe Don Schultz. “We have put in place a strong development team that is very committed to this project’s success. These individuals will all be on hand at the Ideas Fair”, said Mr. Schultz.

To keep Ottawans informed, CLC also launched a brand new website - www.clcrockcliffe.ca – which will provide the latest news and information about the site, consultation process and events.

“We want to develop an innovative neighbourhood that sets the highest standards for strong design, sustainable development and economic viability,” said Mr. Howald. “We are aiming to provide an appropriate mix of uses in housing, employment and amenities, while making sure there are significant natural features and public spaces”.

Unique Opportunity

Situated close to Ottawa’s urban core, the 310-acre (125-hectare) site at Rockcliffe is a unique opportunity to integrate a large, former military base into its surrounding community. Building off the most recent best practices in community planning and principles of sustainable development that have led to award-winning projects in Chilliwack, Edmonton and Calgary, CLC promises to develop a progressive community that will add to the vibrancy of Ottawa, and will honour Rockcliffe’s past while guiding it firmly into the future.

The Ideas Fair will be held from 3:00 to 9:00 p.m. and will feature presentations at 4:00 and 7:00 p.m., along with interactive stations where the public can speak with project team members throughout the evening.

For more information about CLC’s Rockcliffe redevelopment and community consultation events, please visit www.clcrockcliffe.ca.

About CLC

CLC is a federal Crown corporation that optimizes the financial and community value obtained from surplus strategic properties no longer required by the Government of Canada. The company is self-financing and implements innovative, sustainable property solutions to create strong and competitive communities wherever it operates.

-30-

For more information:

Manon Lapensée
Canada Lands Company
416-952-6112
mlapensee@clc.ca

waterloowarrior
Nov 8, 2012, 11:45 PM
new project team... http://www.clcrockcliffe.ca/en/content/project-team

no more Ken Greenberg/KPMG

lrt's friend
Nov 9, 2012, 2:12 AM
Where will the Transitway corridor be built through the project? Ottawa has pretty well given up on LRT before we have even started building the first line. Note the recent news that for all intents and purposes, North-South LRT will never be built. Bring on more Transitways. For all the negative comments about Clive Doucet, he was so right that the 2008 TMP was a bus plan.

rakerman
Nov 9, 2012, 4:13 PM
Not much on the site, the only info I could find is in the FAQ

http://www.clcrockcliffe.ca/en/content/faq-0

and in Development Strategy (http://www.clcrockcliffe.ca/en/content/development-strategy):

The urban design and landscape architecture concept for Rockcliffe is expected to create a vision for the future community character, including:


open space, parks, sports fields, playgrounds, and urban squares
pathways and cycling paths to connect neighbourhoods within Rockcliffe to the surrounding communities and Ottawa’s overall Greenspace Network
street plans and streetscapes
development blocks and land use patterns
mix of housing types and appropriate densities
local commercial, retail, and employment uses
built form and building types
improved links to existing and planned urban transportation networks and the communities surrounding the site

It's quite far from the Transitway (future LRT at Blair) - it would need a good connector bus (or a tram) to connect into the rapid transit system (which the NRC campus used to have in the 190 bus, but no longer does). Either that or everyone will have to take the 12, which is a slow route.

Other than this item in the FAQ it's not clear how much of the ambitious sustainable community vision they will retain

Q: “Sustainable development was a high priority the last time you consulted the public. Will you be abandoning that emphasis on sustainability this time around?”
A: CLC will maintain the over-arching philosophies and broad principles of sustainable development that the public has supported in previous consultations. Throughout the Rockcliffe Community Design Plan process, CLC will strive to attain sustainability goals by re-examining, updating, and testing previous and current planning concepts and designs in relation to environmental, social, economic, urban planning, and infrastructure approaches.

Ken Greenberg described the previous plan (http://greenbergconsultants.com/Project%2054.html) as "a showcase diverse sustainable community"

Little bit of the old design still here: http://www.pfs.bc.ca/html_proj/proj_community.shtml?01

For another retro blast, here's the 2006 CDP Terms of Reference info from Council

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/ec/2006/10-24/ACS2006-PGM-POL-0076.htm

And the 2006 Citizen feature about Rockcliffe is available as PDF online. Lots of detail. Very ambitious.

http://www.raic.org/honours_and_awards/awards_journalism/journalism-files/swedishlessons.pdf

(it won the 2006 President's Award for Architectural Journalism from Architecture Canada)

c_speed3108
Nov 9, 2012, 4:44 PM
They mentioned in one article I read that the density would need to be much lower as they are far away from LRT now.

They also said they are working with two scenarios....bridge and no bridge.

It might be interesting to design a new bus route that would run from Blair, up Bathgate to La Cite, then follow Dan Haag, Carson's, Codds, whatever in the development, Hemlock, Beechwood and into downtown.

They could also extend the "bike transitway" which is slated to end at St. Laurent and Hemlock into this development, with a possible link to the NCC river path system and/or back out onto Montreal Rd

Dado
Nov 9, 2012, 5:25 PM
Somehow, I can't help but think that any plan to put a tram or LRT line down Rideau and Montréal would have led to massive opposition (both residents and businesses), especially west of St. Laurent Blvd.

Such a line wouldn't directly serve most of the former base anyway; an alignment via King Edward, St. Patrick, Beechwood and Hemlock would (and would be easier to construct as well) but I'm sure it too would run into a mass of opposition.

Given the bizarre original proposal for Rockcliffe and that it wouldn't have been directly served by LRT anyway, perhaps the various cancellations were a blessing in disguise. There's still an opportunity to plan for a true TOD community based around a Beechwood-Hemlock alignment

J.OT13
Nov 9, 2012, 5:38 PM
Seems to me that this is not the time for more master plans. Between government cuts and countless other plans/projects (Lansdowne, Le Breton, East TOD, Carling-Bayview TOD, Tunney’s...) and of course the lack of any sort of transit plans on the Montreal Road corridor (buses are an OK, cheap answer, trams would be expensive, no faster than buses and probably would not have much more capacity).

Leave CFB Rockliffe alone for a few more decades until we have all other important pieces in place.

lrt's friend
Nov 9, 2012, 7:27 PM
Somehow, I can't help but think that any plan to put a tram or LRT line down Rideau and Montréal would have led to massive opposition (both residents and businesses), especially west of St. Laurent Blvd.

Such a line wouldn't directly serve most of the former base anyway; an alignment via King Edward, St. Patrick, Beechwood and Hemlock would (and would be easier to construct as well) but I'm sure it too would run into a mass of opposition.

Given the bizarre original proposal for Rockcliffe and that it wouldn't have been directly served by LRT anyway, perhaps the various cancellations were a blessing in disguise. There's still an opportunity to plan for a true TOD community based around a Beechwood-Hemlock alignment

I thought the original intent was to run a branch line into the Rockcliffe development from Montreal Road.

lrt's friend
Nov 9, 2012, 7:30 PM
Seems to me that this is not the time for more master plans. Between government cuts and countless other plans/projects (Lansdowne, Le Breton, East TOD, Carling-Bayview TOD, Tunney’s...) and of course the lack of any sort of transit plans on the Montreal Road corridor (buses are an OK, cheap answer, trams would be expensive, no faster than buses and probably would not have much more capacity).

Leave CFB Rockliffe alone for a few more decades until we have all other important pieces in place.

Trams on Montreal Road would be faster if they ran in reserved lanes. We have to have the courage to eliminate on-street parking. In the long run, this will deliver more customers to businesses in Vanier anyways.

J.OT13
Nov 9, 2012, 7:52 PM
I thought the original intent was to run a branch line into the Rockcliffe development from Montreal Road.

The mayor's (O'Brien) task force of 2007(?) had suggested it, but nobody else had ever talk about it (as far as I know).

As for the Trams on Montreal, I think dedicated bus lanes would do pretty much the same as trams on dedicated lanes, but with slightly lower capacity. I still believe the best long term solution is a subway.

Dado
Nov 10, 2012, 12:55 AM
I thought the original intent was to run a branch line into the Rockcliffe development from Montreal Road.

J.OT13 is correct - only the Mayor's Task Force proposed the idea as a branch line out of the downtown tunnel. I can't tell whether it was to be surface or sub-surface since it is only on the diagrams; the text only mentions building a spur in the tunnel itself for a connection to CFB Rockcliffe, not the nature of the rest of the connection.

The routing in the 2003 TMP and ORTEP both follow Montréal Road alone and turn south in the corridor west of Blair Rd.

KHOOLE
Nov 10, 2012, 2:40 AM
I have to agree with McC. Another mistake in developing our revised Transportation Master Plan. It was like those involved in developing the new plan believed that there was no wisdom in the previous plan. Maybe this will limit the amount of intensification that can be implemented on the site to avoid overwhelming all the roads in the area. Our plans to make it a transit oriented community are going to be limited by the current TMP. That will be a sad turn of events.

Our efforts to create a transit oriented suburb have already been destroyed. It looks like the same for one of the few urban locations that we can develop from scratch. Larry O'Brien's legacy will last for generations.

Old Ottawa South and the Lindenlea (Rockliffe Park) are both streetcar suburbs of 100 years ago that were at each end of streetcar line no. 1 (the one that went to Lansdowne Park). I think that Ottawa residents were much better of in those days because most lived just a block or two from public transportation.

Streetcar line no. 1 went all the way up Bank St from Sunnyside, then travelled on Sparks or Queen, then Rideau, Dalhousie, St.Patrick and Beechwood and travelled as far as Acacia, near the Beechwood Cemetery.

What's wrong with bringing streetcars back? They are certainly not any slower than cars and are more comfortable and ecologically friendly than buses.

Such a line would keep on going on Beechwood down Hemlock to St Laurent and the former Rockliffe Air Force Base and maybe even to Montreal Rd.

What's wrong with that?

J.OT13
Nov 10, 2012, 4:49 PM
Old Ottawa South and the Lindenlea (Rockliffe Park) are both streetcar suburbs of 100 years ago that were at each end of streetcar line no. 1 (the one that went to Lansdowne Park). I think that Ottawa residents were much better of in those days because most lived just a block or two from public transportation.

Streetcar line no. 1 went all the way up Bank St from Sunnyside, then travelled on Sparks or Queen, then Rideau, Dalhousie, St.Patrick and Beechwood and travelled as far as Acacia, near the Beechwood Cemetery.

What's wrong with bringing streetcars back? They are certainly not any slower than cars and are more comfortable and ecologically friendly than buses.

Such a line would keep on going on Beechwood down Hemlock to St Laurent and the former Rockliffe Air Force Base and maybe even to Montreal Rd.

What's wrong with that?

I strongly believe we should have kept the streetcars, but we took em' out in 58' and it probably cost us around 50 million (guessing, not based on facts) do so. In those 64 years without streetcars, we went from the size of Kingston to a major metropolis, 10 times larger. So I don't think it would be wise to invest billions in reinstating a system we took out over half a century ago, adding little capacity to our transit system.

rakerman
Nov 10, 2012, 6:13 PM
Somehow, I can't help but think that any plan to put a tram or LRT line down Rideau and Montréal would have led to massive opposition (both residents and businesses), especially west of St. Laurent Blvd.


You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.

KHOOLE
Nov 11, 2012, 6:32 AM
I strongly believe we should have kept the streetcars, but we took em' out in 58' and it probably cost us around 50 million (guessing, not based on facts) do so. In those 64 years without streetcars, we went from the size of Kingston to a major metropolis, 10 times larger. So I don't think it would be wise to invest billions in reinstating a system we took out over half a century ago, adding little capacity to our transit system.

The proposed 2.1 billion dollars downtown tunnel is simply replacing the present Transitway system with a LRT line. What "capacity" is being added to the transit sytem for 2.1 billion dollars? BTW, that's 2,100 million dollars!

Kitchissippi
Nov 11, 2012, 3:18 PM
:previous: Off-topic discussion in 3...2...1. Please stop rehashing old arguments in different threads!

Capital Shaun
Nov 11, 2012, 3:39 PM
You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.

More likely OCTranspo will simply extend/reroute and increase the frequency on route 129. I seem to remember its predecessor the 198 used to feed into that area.

I doubt the city will create a new route just to service that neighbourhood.

J.OT13
Nov 11, 2012, 5:25 PM
The proposed 2.1 billion dollars downtown tunnel is simply replacing the present Transitway system with a LRT line. What "capacity" is being added to the transit sytem for 2.1 billion dollars? BTW, that's 2,100 million dollars!

Bus vs. ORT capacities;

Bus; 1 bus every 30 seconds (and that’s stretching it) with 100 people per bus;

90 buses x 100 people = 9,000 phpd

ORT; initial max capacity - 1 train every 2 minutes, 1 train will initially contain 4 cars, 200 people per car, so 800 people per train;

30 trains x 800 people = 24,000 phpd

ORT; extended platforms and automated; 1 train 1 m 30 s, 1 train containing 5 cars, 200 people per car, so 1000 people per train;

40 trains x 1000 people = 40,000 phpd


So yes, the capacity will greatly be increased and the 2.1 billion, as well as future investement in the ORT is fully justified; we are finnaly starting to catch up to the other big Canadian cities.

Originally posted by rakerman

You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.

That would be an OK (but very expensive) solution for CFB Rockliffe, but that would create another transfer (as opposed to a Rideau-Montreal subway). Furthermore, by not building the Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway, you leave massive, high density and high potential dead zones like Vanier, the east part of Rideau (although they will still build around east Rideau, the road will end up over capacity), Centertown, Lansdowne, and Old Ottawa south.


What I don' understand is why did they not use the old base as social housing (in the old existing houses) for a few decades while they sorted out the whole lack of transportation.

Capital Shaun
Nov 12, 2012, 1:29 AM
What I don' understand is why did they not use the old base as social housing (in the old existing houses) for a few decades while they sorted out the whole lack of transportation.

Someone once told me that some of those houses were being used for social housing until a couple years ago.

I agree that transportation needs to be better thought out for this neighbourhood. CFB Rockcliffe is a big development in an already developed area and it'll certainly increase car & bus traffic on the major roads around it.

Dado
Nov 12, 2012, 2:12 AM
You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.

Well you could, but in so doing you've gone from a ~6.5 km trip (via Beechwood-Hemlock) to an 11 km one (to the Rideau Centre).

lrt's friend
Nov 12, 2012, 2:40 AM
With the attitude of transit planners today, it is not about the shortest route for the passenger but the lowest cost. If it is cheaper to run transit to the closest rapid transit station, that is the way it will be. If it takes twice as long for the passenger to get to their destination and with additional transfers, oh well.

Uhuniau
Nov 12, 2012, 4:00 AM
Somehow, I can't help but think that any plan to put a tram or LRT line down Rideau and Montréal would have led to massive opposition (both residents and businesses), especially west of St. Laurent Blvd.

Bring it on.

Such a line wouldn't directly serve most of the former base anyway; an alignment via King Edward, St. Patrick, Beechwood and Hemlock would (and would be easier to construct as well) but I'm sure it too would run into a mass of opposition.

Beechwood? The blue-hairs would riot.

Given the bizarre original proposal for Rockcliffe and that it wouldn't have been directly served by LRT anyway, perhaps the various cancellations were a blessing in disguise. There's still an opportunity to plan for a true TOD community based around a Beechwood-Hemlock alignment

Indeed! A prime opprotunity to be wasted, like every other opportunity in Ottawa.

The former CFB Rockcliffe lands design was a god-awful suburban piece of crap. So the new version is almost bound to be 10 times worse, especially once the NIMBIES and green-space fetishists have their way with it.

Uhuniau
Nov 12, 2012, 4:04 AM
You don't need to run a line down Rideau and Montreal.
All you have to do is run a connector line up Bathgate and Burma and you could pick up all the Rockcliffe, Cite, NRC traffic and connect it to the transitway at Blair. Could be a connector bus or a tram. Just has to be frequent.

Which doesn't do anything to serve natural desire-line traffic along the Montreal-Rideau axis.

But hey, we successfully cancelled any consideration of mass transit along this corridor, and chopped 15% of the bus runs to make Westboro happy, so it can't be all bad, can it? Keep on centring transit around the political wants of the suburbs, keep on screwing the near-east end of the city, and keep cramming the inner-city suckers into overcrowded, infrequent, badly-timed buses. Anything to avoid city-building, vision, and real solutions.

O-Town Hockey
Nov 12, 2012, 8:17 PM
Big fire at an old school on the base:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Fire+destroys+abandoned+school+Rockcliffe+base+with+video/7534464/story.html

http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1034676!/httpImage/image.jpeg_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.jpeg

Uhuniau
Nov 12, 2012, 9:53 PM
Leave CFB Rockliffe alone for a few more decades until we have all other important pieces in place.

Like Lebreton?

J.OT13
Nov 12, 2012, 10:15 PM
Like Lebreton?

I mean transit connections (rapid transit, not trams and/or buses) to the CFB and possibly the bridge. But yes, we might also be better off waiting for other redevelopment projects to be completed.

TMA-1
Nov 13, 2012, 12:28 AM
I saw this fire news at the Citizen. I should have known to look here first. That must/might be the school on the upper left.

It's a crappy shot but what the hell...

You could put a whole 'nother decent sized airport down there.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8341/8180447180_a0399f644d_b.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23575605@N08/8180447180/in/photostream/lightbox/





Big fire at an old school on the base:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Fire+destroys+abandoned+school+Rockcliffe+base+with+video/7534464/story.html

http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1034676!/httpImage/image.jpeg_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.jpeg

c_speed3108
Nov 13, 2012, 1:47 AM
I saw this fire news at the Citizen. I should have known to look here first. That must/might be the school on the upper left.

It's a crappy shot but what the hell...

You could put a whole 'nother decent sized airport down there.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8341/8180447180_a0399f644d_b.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23575605@N08/8180447180/in/photostream/lightbox/

ThE school is located about one third of the way down the photo from the top and about one quarter of the way across from the left. Near the parade square. One of the last buildings left.

Uhuniau
Nov 13, 2012, 1:57 AM
I mean transit connections (rapid transit, not trams and/or buses) to the CFB and possibly the bridge. But yes, we might also be better off waiting for other redevelopment projects to be completed.

But Can'tLands now says they won't aim so high, without any rapid transit, and visionless Ottawa in cheapskate Ontario won't be building rapid transit anywhere near the Montreal corridor in this century, if ever, so, yeah, this will be another wasted opportunity, Can'tLands will build a butt-ugly suburb on this site, and the Montreal-Rideau corridor will be served by an inferior and deteriorating bus service, thanks to a transit utility and political masters who have much higher priorities in the vote-rich subsidized suburbs, until the 2100s at the earliers.

Doomed. Ottawa is just plain doomed. Bulldoze the damn thing and move the capital to Montreal or Toronto or Kingston.

Uhuniau
Nov 13, 2012, 2:07 AM
Update from the CLC, advertised in yesterday's Citizen as well:

What an incredibly shitty location for any kind of consultation, other than - what this is - a sham one.

Dado
Nov 13, 2012, 2:59 AM
But Can'tLands now says they won't aim so high, without any rapid transit, and visionless Ottawa in cheapskate Ontario won't be building rapid transit anywhere near the Montreal corridor in this century, if ever, so, yeah, this will be another wasted opportunity, Can'tLands will build a butt-ugly suburb on this site, and the Montreal-Rideau corridor will be served by an inferior and deteriorating bus service, thanks to a transit utility and political masters who have much higher priorities in the vote-rich subsidized suburbs, until the 2100s at the earliers.

Doomed. Ottawa is just plain doomed. Bulldoze the damn thing and move the capital to Montreal or Toronto or Kingston.

Why so cheerful today? Must have been the lovely weather putting you in a better mood or something.

:cheers:


But if we're going to go off-topic and talk about capital relocation, I'd put it at North Bay (just give it a better name).

Uhuniau
Nov 13, 2012, 3:03 AM
Why so cheerful today? Must have been the lovely weather putting you in a better mood or something.

Was in a good mood until I realized Can'tLands doesn't want you at their "consultation" if you don't drive a car.

But if we're going to go off-topic and talk about capital relocation, I'd put it at North Bay (just give it a better name).

Put it right in the centre of Canada: Baker Lake! :)

KHOOLE
Nov 13, 2012, 4:13 AM
Was in a good mood until I realized Can'tLands doesn't want you at their "consultation" if you don't drive a car.



Put it right in the centre of Canada: Baker Lake! :)

Really? I would put it in Gatineau!

Half of the civil servants live there anyway!

And they have a new arena and good intimate restaurants downtown, as well as the upcoming Rapibus, a great casino with food and entertainment and a great Viu of Parliament Hill as well as being a few minutes drive from Gatineau Park.

Maybe Gatineau should annex Ottawa and become a Federal District? :yes:

Dado
Nov 13, 2012, 4:33 AM
Beechwood? The blue-hairs would riot.

Yes... that routing is much easier to run through the base than one coming from Montréal Rd.

If serving the base redevelopment directly is the goal, then there aren't a lot of options other than Beechwood-Hemlock.

One of the others is to use Montréal as far as the Aviation Parkway and head north along it, with the side benefit of the Montfort Hospital being served more directly.

Another is to head north along St. Laurent to Hemlock from Montréal.

Each routing option has its advantages and disadvantages. In the absence of any redevelopment opportunity at the base I would say go for the straight Montréal Rd option, but it's not the best for serving the base directly.


And I would really like to know what idiot was in charge of putting CITÉ Collégiale where it is. That is just a horrific location, even worse than where Algonquin College and Carleton University were put.



The former CFB Rockcliffe lands design was a god-awful suburban piece of crap. So the new version is almost bound to be 10 times worse, especially once the NIMBIES and green-space fetishists have their way with it.

But how can you ignore the hill housing?

Dado
Nov 13, 2012, 4:35 AM
Really? I would put it in Gatineau!

Half of the civil servants live there anyway!

And they have a new arena and good intimate restaurants downtown, as well as the upcoming Rapibus, a great casino with food and entertainment and a great Viu of Parliament Hill as well as being a few minutes drive from Gatineau Park.

Maybe Gatineau should annex Ottawa and become a Federal District? :yes:

You're not doing a great job of selling your idea, here.

Uhuniau
Nov 13, 2012, 5:03 AM
Each routing option has its advantages and disadvantages. In the absence of any redevelopment opportunity at the base I would say go for the straight Montréal Rd option, but it's not the best for serving the base directly.

Montreal Road would be fine, if the development would stitch the new urban fabric to Montreal Road as a main street. But, naturally, it will not.

There is no need for stand-alone mass transit to the base site.

KHOOLE
Nov 13, 2012, 5:56 AM
You're not doing a great job of selling your idea, here.

Sorry, just trying to be funny and facetious. Not pushing anything!

I agree with you about Cite Collegiale. (Algonquin College should be getting its Transitway connection soon).

The former CFB Rockliffe is over 300 acres of new development. That's 10 times the surface area of Lansdowne Park. It's inconceivable that a modern public transportation system such as LRT has not been pre-planned before any thought is to be given to residential development.

If we use the Orleans model, this land will accomodate primarily middle-class people, a bit like Parkwood Hills built by Minto in the 1960's.

We are no longer in the 60's with gas-guzzling Chev Impalas with fancy tailfins.

It should be said loud and clear that shovels should not hit the ground before the dinosaurs in the City's Planning Department come out with an adequate 21st Century public transportation system that the residents of the Capital City of Canada would be proud of and not denigrate like the present smosgabord of buses that no one really wants to ride.

I still think that a surface LRT or street-car line from the former CFB Rockliffe to, say, Rideau Centre, along Beechwood-St.Patrick-Dalhousie-Rideau etc axis would be a boon to Ottawa's image as a great city to live in and raise a family and get an education, moderate-priced entertainment and sports, and make friends up and down the streets of one's neighbourhood.

The former CFB Rockliffe will become another suburban neighbourhood, just like Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans. Let's plan to provide adequate public transportation such as LRT to all these places before digging an expensive tunnel underneath downtown Ottawa that will be of use only for 20 hours a week and be just as deserted as the Sparks Street Mall after 5 PM.

J.OT13
Nov 13, 2012, 3:07 PM
And I would really like to know what idiot was in charge of putting CITÉ Collégiale where it is. That is just a horrific location, even worse than where Algonquin College and Carleton University were put.




Really? I think it's a great location. Big piece of land between 2 main drags (Montreal and Ogilvie) in the old east end with easy access to both Orleans and Gatineau.

eternallyme
Nov 13, 2012, 3:32 PM
Canada Lands needs to sell that land to someone who has a TRUE vision.

eternallyme
Nov 13, 2012, 3:34 PM
Anyway, a subway or high-end rapid transit line is probably necessary in that corridor ultimately. Deviating it from Montreal Road to serve the area is required. I'd target it in the next TMP.

J.OT13
Nov 13, 2012, 3:35 PM
Canada Lands needs to sell that land to someone who has a TRUE vision.

Yes, they have proven time and time again that they cannot handle any sort of redevelopment project.

eternallyme
Nov 13, 2012, 3:40 PM
Here's a base to work from - a possible rapid transit idea? It would almost entirely be underground. That would then follow Montreal Road and Rideau Street to downtown, and terminate at Blair.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9158/rockcliffetransit.jpg

J.OT13
Nov 13, 2012, 3:53 PM
Elimanates the need for a spur, that seems like a good route.

eternallyme
Nov 13, 2012, 4:30 PM
Elimanates the need for a spur, that seems like a good route.

PROS:
* Rapid transit from both Blair and downtown to La Cite Collegiale, something seriously lacking now
* Rapid transit as well to the Montfort Hospital with the routing going directly underneath their property
* Significant increase in service to Carson Grove and the Brittany Drive area
* Enormous increase in capacity on the corridor
* Considerable cost savings with major reductions or elimination of Routes 12 and 129 and little or no additional bus service needed for CFB Rockcliffe
* Transfer opportunities are maximized at Blair, the Rideau Centre and along the route itself
* Development opportunities are maximized at CFB Rockcliffe with two stations on the site and two stations nearby - able to use them as key nodes

CONS:
* Direct service lost east of the NRC area (i.e. either steps away or a short walk away) - densities are very low though in Rothwell Heights and additional service to Beacon Hill necessary as below
* Additional bus service likely required on Route 124 and another feeder route (127 extension?) to replace the eastern part of Route 12
* Some walking distance required from Montreal Road between St. Laurent and the NRC area
* High capital costs as the entire line must be underground (the topography in the area supports underground transit).

If a seventh station on that map is warranted, between Granville and St. Laurent (proposed central Vanier station is just west of Granville, but could be shifted to Marier), an additional station could be built at de l'Eglise, and Brittany Station could be moved to beneath Brittany Drive rather than central to the community (downside of that is poor connection with Route 7, which the shown location supports).

Since the route would be entirely (or almost entirely) underground, would it be better to use heavy rail or light rail there? I wonder what the passenger counts on Route 12 overall are now, considering that the ridership would likely more than double as the CFB Rockcliffe area would be high density, and La Cite Collegiale would also likely be much larger and pick off Route 129 ridership.

Dado
Nov 13, 2012, 5:27 PM
Really? I think it's a great location. Big piece of land between 2 main drags (Montreal and Ogilvie) in the old east end with easy access to both Orleans and Gatineau.

Rapid transit can't easily serve it and even if something comes close it'll still be on the far side of some large parking lots. Somewhere like what is now the Place des Gouverneurs site near Cyrville Station on the other hand would have been right on the Transitway and just as accessible to Orleans, if not more so (and not sure what you mean by Gatineau).

Dado
Nov 13, 2012, 5:39 PM
Canada Lands needs to sell that land to someone who has a TRUE vision.

Yes, they have proven time and time again that they cannot handle any sort of redevelopment project.

I'm trying to decide if you're being facetious here or serious...

Garrison Woods in Calgary was done by them and it looks pretty good. Some think it a bit too British-looking, but that's a matter of taste. As a redevelopment though it definitely isn't typical suburban fare; it's more like a New Urbanist development.

I'm pretty sure they've also done decent work in other cities.

In Calgary the biggest problem they had was the City itself because they were doing so many new and different things. One could well imagine the same issue cropping up here.



All of which actually makes the previous Rockcliffe plan all the more disappointing.

KHOOLE
Nov 13, 2012, 5:47 PM
Canada Lands needs to sell that land to someone who has a TRUE vision.

Bring back Bill Teron or someone with similar talent and vision.

Bill Teron, in the early days of Minto and Campeau, had the vision of a self sufficient community such as Kanata North and was instrumental in attracting the hi-tech industries to Ottawa.

Has there been any mention yet to any facilities that would be creating employment on the former CFB Rockliffe area? The idea is to re-establish the concept of having people live close to where they work and get cars off the roads.

That's why I think that an ideal rapid public transportation system, preferably LRT, does not need to be a cross-city system. That's why I believe that a tunnel underneath downtown is a bad idea.

Just like the spokes of a wheel, rapid transit should be provided between the suburbs, where people live, and the central core, where most jobs are.

Most cars on the 417 coming from Orléans get off before Bronson. Most cars on the 417 coming from Kanata get off before the Vanier Parkway.

From all directions, most cars have the central downtown core as a destination. Few cars have a destination beyond this core if they are coming to work, to school or on business.

A LRT between the former air force base and the Rideau Centre, using traditional routes such as Beechwood, St.Patrick and Dalhousie which are mixed-use residential, office and commercial entities is all that's necessary in this case.

Pedestrian, vehicular and public transportation systems within the central core should be treated as a separate and unique unit because the needs and end points are different and dissimilar than those of areas such as Orléans, Barrhaven, Kanata and the about-to-be suburb of the former Air Force Base.

BTW, has this former CFB area been given a name yet?

Dado
Nov 13, 2012, 5:50 PM
Here's a base to work from - a possible rapid transit idea? It would almost entirely be underground. That would then follow Montreal Road and Rideau Street to downtown, and terminate at Blair.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9158/rockcliffetransit.jpg

PROS:
* Rapid transit from both Blair and downtown to La Cite Collegiale, something seriously lacking now
* Rapid transit as well to the Montfort Hospital with the routing going directly underneath their property
* Significant increase in service to Carson Grove and the Brittany Drive area
* Enormous increase in capacity on the corridor
* Considerable cost savings with major reductions or elimination of Routes 12 and 129 and little or no additional bus service needed for CFB Rockcliffe
* Transfer opportunities are maximized at Blair, the Rideau Centre and along the route itself
* Development opportunities are maximized at CFB Rockcliffe with two stations on the site and two stations nearby - able to use them as key nodes

CONS:
* Direct service lost east of the NRC area (i.e. either steps away or a short walk away) - densities are very low though in Rothwell Heights and additional service to Beacon Hill necessary as below
* Additional bus service likely required on Route 124 and another feeder route (127 extension?) to replace the eastern part of Route 12
* Some walking distance required from Montreal Road between St. Laurent and the NRC area
* High capital costs as the entire line must be underground (the topography in the area supports underground transit).

If a seventh station on that map is warranted, between Granville and St. Laurent (proposed central Vanier station is just west of Granville, but could be shifted to Marier), an additional station could be built at de l'Eglise, and Brittany Station could be moved to beneath Brittany Drive rather than central to the community (downside of that is poor connection with Route 7, which the shown location supports).

Since the route would be entirely (or almost entirely) underground, would it be better to use heavy rail or light rail there? I wonder what the passenger counts on Route 12 overall are now, considering that the ridership would likely more than double as the CFB Rockcliffe area would be high density, and La Cite Collegiale would also likely be much larger and pick off Route 129 ridership.


We've gone from discussing an unlikely enough tram or surface LRT to a highly unlikely subway. It's like Rob Ford and Transit City all over again.

The entire base could be covered by suburban sprawl for a couple of generations and then knocked down again before it would see a subway line reaching it.

We might as well at least keep the discussion within the realm of the vaguely possible. The 2003 TMP did have a surface LRT on Montréal, so at least discussing it again fits in with being "vaguely possible". But a subway? Just not going to happen.

J.OT13
Nov 13, 2012, 5:50 PM
Rapid transit can't easily serve it and even if something comes close it'll still be on the far side of some large parking lots. Somewhere like what is now the Place des Gouverneurs site near Cyrville Station on the other hand would have been right on the Transitway and just as accessible to Orleans, if not more so (and not sure what you mean by Gatineau).

It is considerably simple to take Aviation up to the Rockliffe Parkway which brings us directly to the MacDonald-Cartier Bridge. I guess I mean easy to drive to and from Gatineau, but if you take transit, it's a different story. But if the Aviation Bridge is ever to be built, STO buses (or eventually the possibility of LRT/Rapid Transit) could shuttle people from the RapiBus to the College.

Originally posted by eternallyme

Since the route would be entirely (or almost entirely) underground, would it be better to use heavy rail or light rail there?

In terms of capacity, both technologies can pretty much carry the same number of people. If we compare Toronto, Montréal and Ottawa (full build out), we all have 150 meter platforms and capacity varies around 40,000 phpd (OT) and 48,000 phpd (MTL). Although heavy rail usually features larger trains (width, not necessarily length) with fewer seats, automated LRT can achieve better frequency (minute and a half vs. two minutes).

I think LRT, as a technology running in a fully grade separated Rapid Transit line, might have the advantage (in Ottawa where we may never achieve the same density as MTL or TO due to height restrictions) because it can take sharper curves and steeper hills, and can use smaller tunnels, cutting the cost of construction.

eternallyme
Nov 13, 2012, 5:51 PM
Rapid transit can't easily serve it and even if something comes close it'll still be on the far side of some large parking lots. Somewhere like what is now the Place des Gouverneurs site near Cyrville Station on the other hand would have been right on the Transitway and just as accessible to Orleans, if not more so (and not sure what you mean by Gatineau).

Look at the picture I posted above - sets it up PERFECTLY for rapid transit, right in the heart of the community.

eternallyme
Nov 13, 2012, 5:53 PM
We've gone from discussing an unlikely enough tram or surface LRT to a highly unlikely subway. It's like Rob Ford and Transit City all over again.

The entire base could be covered by suburban sprawl for a couple of generations and then knocked down again before it would see a subway line reaching it.

We might as well at least keep the discussion within the realm of the vaguely possible. The 2003 TMP did have a surface LRT on Montréal, so at least discussing it again fits in with being "vaguely possible". But a subway? Just not going to happen.

A surface LRT line in that area is almost impossible due to development constraints - too much expropriation in an established area, especially considering the demographics. It's underground or nothing in that corridor.

archie-tect
Nov 13, 2012, 5:56 PM
Look at the picture I posted above - sets it up PERFECTLY for rapid transit, right in the heart of the community.

Based on the previous plan for the base, I fail to see how it could support rapid transit of any kind based on the type of densities they are discussing. It would appear that Montreal Road would be the better route as it has more destinations along it with the potential for infill and redevelopment.

eternallyme
Nov 13, 2012, 6:03 PM
Based on the previous plan for the base, I fail to see how it could support rapid transit of any kind based on the type of densities they are discussing. It would appear that Montreal Road would be the better route as it has more destinations along it with the potential for infill and redevelopment.

That would be Canada Lands' problem.

Dado
Nov 13, 2012, 6:21 PM
Look at the picture I posted above - sets it up PERFECTLY for rapid transit, right in the heart of the community.

The 'it' in the conversation was the CITÉ Collégiale site. On your drawing, it still ends up being over a quarter kilometre from the line across a parking lot, which is the best that can reasonably be hoped for. Which was precisely my point: it was a poor siting choice for an institution like a college.


A surface LRT line in that area is almost impossible due to development constraints - too much expropriation in an established area, especially considering the demographics. It's underground or nothing in that corridor.

Well that didn't seem to have been a problem when they put it in the 2003 TMP; here's how they proposed to do it in ORTEP:

https://sites.google.com/site/ottawadado/files/Rideau-Montreal_LRT10.jpg

J.OT13
Nov 13, 2012, 6:36 PM
Well that didn't seem to have been a problem when they put it in the 2003 TMP; here's how they proposed to do it in ORTEP:

https://sites.google.com/site/ottawadado/files/Rideau-Montreal_LRT10.jpg

The stations are well placed for a subway, but as a surface line, it adds little capacity considering the mammoth cost of building it. We could just create cheap bus lanes all the way from the Canal to Beacon Hill and run articulated buses every minute to achieve the same result for a fraction of the price (capital cost).

If we are serious about building a modern rapid transit system and intensifying the inner city, it has to be a subway. Once it gets to Aviation, we can either loop to catch the CFB and go back down to Blair, via La Cité or split the line at Aviation, one part going to the CFB (they could plan the redevelopment to leave space for a grade separated rail system and its stations), the other to the College and down to Blair.

I do not want to see the city waste billions on low capacity trams; we took them out in 58’ lets look to the ahead instead of going “Back to the Future”. The city has grown up; it’s time for our leaders mentality to do the same.

Capital Shaun
Nov 14, 2012, 1:19 AM
The 'it' in the conversation was the CITÉ Collégiale site. On your drawing, it still ends up being over a quarter kilometre from the line across a parking lot, which is the best that can reasonably be hoped for. Which was precisely my point: it was a poor siting choice for an institution like a college.

250m is nothing. Some walk further to their parked cars on Bathgate or even on Rainsford. When I studied there it was easy to walk a few kilometres just from going around the campus. We're talking rapid transit here not a simple bus stop. There's guaranteed ridership at the college with the students who don't own cars. A 250m walk to get downtown in a few minutes is an easy trade-off. Sure it would be nice if the station would be integrated directly with the college but I don't think that will be a deal breaker.

lrt's friend
Nov 14, 2012, 2:09 AM
La Cité Collégiale's peculiar location dates back to 1955 when the location first opened as a Roman Catholic seminary. This was a time of the post-war baby boom and the tremendous expansion of the Roman Catholic Church in Ottawa. Existing seminaries in the city could not handle the fast growth of the church so larger sites were needed in the suburbs. Following a controversial attempt to build a large seminary at Hurdman's Bridge, which is today's RCMP headquarters, the church built seminaries on Carson Road and on Kilborn Avenue just off Bank Street. After the Carson Road site ceased to serve as a seminary, the federal government took it over as its main language training school during the 1970s. When the site was no longer needed for that purpose it became available and the college moved in 1995 from its original location on St. Laurent Boulevard and Conroy Road in the Ottawa Business Park.

eternallyme
Nov 14, 2012, 2:16 AM
250m is nothing. Some walk further to their parked cars on Bathgate or even on Rainsford. When I studied there it was easy to walk a few kilometres just from going around the campus. We're talking rapid transit here not a simple bus stop. There's guaranteed ridership at the college with the students who don't own cars. A 250m walk to get downtown in a few minutes is an easy trade-off. Sure it would be nice if the station would be integrated directly with the college but I don't think that will be a deal breaker.

Not to mention in the future an opportunity would exist for the college to expand towards Bathgate Drive directly into the station. It would be difficult to bring it closer without making it more difficult for Carson Grove (not the highest density but why skip a stop for them since that station would practically eliminate Route 129), the Bathgate/Montreal corner (high-density residential already exists there and more would likely with a station) and the gold mine that is CFB Rockcliffe.

eternallyme
Nov 14, 2012, 2:22 AM
Back to CFB Rockcliffe, using those station locations would allow for instant high-density planning at those key nodes at Bathgate and Codd's. It would be INCREDIBLY transit-oriented (and almost transit-dependant) since there would be poor automobile access.

c_speed3108
Nov 14, 2012, 3:42 PM
The big thing for making it transit oriented is that it is designed in such a way that key amenities like a decent super market are present within the development so people can walk to them. Transit is great for longer trips provided it is direct enough, but waiting even 15 minutes for a trip that to drive would probably only take 10 minutes is a really hard sell.

Doing something like groceries on a bus/lrt/subway/mono rail or whatever else someone wants to build tends to be pretty sucky, particularly in Ottawa's climate. It is not good enough to simply build some transit line that gets people to work downtown or something. If people require cars other trips like groceries or weekend outings, what happens is that they buy a car. They have the car. They are paying for the car. They are paying to insure the car. They are paying to fix a car. Well they might as well use the car too. Why pay for transit AND a car. No point. If you need a car, transit loses.

Capital Shaun
Nov 14, 2012, 5:50 PM
The big thing for making it transit oriented is that it is designed in such a way that key amenities like a decent super market are present within the development so people can walk to them. Transit is great for longer trips provided it is direct enough, but waiting even 15 minutes for a trip that to drive would probably only take 10 minutes is a really hard sell.

Doing something like groceries on a bus/lrt/subway/mono rail or whatever else someone wants to build tends to be pretty sucky, particularly in Ottawa's climate. It is not good enough to simply build some transit line that gets people to work downtown or something. If people require cars other trips like groceries or weekend outings, what happens is that they buy a car. They have the car. They are paying for the car. They are paying to insure the car. They are paying to fix a car. Well they might as well use the car too. Why pay for transit AND a car. No point. If you need a car, transit loses.

Agree with many of your points.

If we want to get people to cut back their car usage we have to make it easy for them to get to major destinations and to have common amneties in the neighbourhood. So some retail will be needed which would probably include a grocery store, pharmacy, cleaners, bank... Otherwise the residents will all hop in their cars and drive over to the retail on Montreal or Beechwood.

It makes little sense for someone in the city should have to take the car to get more milk and bread but it's the reality in many parts of our suburbs.

DEWLine
Nov 27, 2012, 6:58 PM
So...who else here attended the CLC-backed Ideas Fair at the Aviation Museum yesterday?

Impressions?

kevinbottawa
Nov 27, 2012, 7:53 PM
So...who else here attended the CLC-backed Ideas Fair at the Aviation Museum yesterday?

Impressions?

I didn't go, but this article makes it sound like it'll look like a suburban neighbourhood.

Former airbase redevelopment must address roads and traffic

By Maria Cook, The Ottawa Citizen November 26, 2012

How do you insert a small town into the city without overwhelming surrounding neighbourhoods with cars and trucks on roads that are already stressed by traffic?

That’s a key question in converting the former Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe to a new community.

After a five-year hiatus, planning for the 125-hectare site has resumed. Canada Lands Company (CLC), the crown corporation that owns the land, will host a public consultation on Monday.

“We want to engage the community not only to identify issues, but also to give us ideas about how those issues can be resolved,” says Don Schultz, CLC director of real estate, Rockcliffe.

CLC is inviting thoughts on how to manage traffic, develop housing for a wide range of people and bring employment. Because the project will take 20 years to complete, they want ideas on interim use of land, as well as suggested names for the area.

Located 5.5 kilometres east of Parliament Hill, the former military base is the largest development parcel within the Greenbelt. It sits on an escarpment overlooking the Ottawa River valley, east of St. Laurent Boulevard and north of Montreal Road. The site is ringed by mature neighbourhoods such as Rothwell Heights, Fairhaven, Thorncliffe Park, Manor Park, Rockcliffe Park and Vanier.

Jane Brammer, president of the Rothwell Heights Property Owners Association, says the big issue for existing communities boils down to “3-Ts” — traffic, transportation and transit.

“These residents will be relying on surrounding road linkages that are already heavily used,” says Brammer. “The 3-Ts are going to be a problem that cannot be effectively addressed without some innovative thinking.”

In 2007, a land claim by the Algonquins of Ontario blocked sale of the property by the Department of National Defence to CLC. The $27.2-million sale went through last spring after the Algonquins struck a $10-million deal with the federal government.

Five years ago, the CLC had a master plan for a mixed-use community that included 4,500 to 6,000 houses and apartments. It envisioned 10,000 to 15,000 residents, and aspired to be a model of sustainability and contemporary urban design.

That plan has been abandoned. “We will be respecting the broad principles of sustainability that the public supported, like walkability, protection of open spaces, positive streetscape environments and sidewalks that favour human activity rather than cater to the automobile,” says Schultz.

“I’d like to think we can move beyond neo-traditional town planning and design to more contemporary forms.”

The greatest change of the past five years is the City of Ottawa’s plan for light rail. CLC was counting on light rail along Montreal Road. But the eastern route has shifted to the Transitway corridor south of Ogilvie Road, far from the proposed development. The closest station will be at Blair Road.

Density is now an open question, says Schultz.

There could be fewer than the 6,000 residences the city’s official plan assigns to the site. Or there could be anywhere from 6,000 to 11,000 units.

“Transit and transportation is going to determine the intensity of development,” says Schultz. “If there are really strong solutions that emerge, that can have an effect on how much development can happen. The more enhanced the transit, the greater number of residential units.”

CLC is talking to city officials about providing rapid bus service between the site and the Blair Road transit station. It plans to approach the National Capital Commission about gaining access to the Aviation Parkway. Hemlock and Codd’s roads are currently the only access roads.

“I’d like to think trams or streetcars could be part of the equation,” Schultz said. He imagines trams on Blair Road as well as on Hemlock Road, Beechwood Avenue and St. Patrick Street where there are “significant traffic concerns.”

In addition, the district will include low-rise office buildings, in hopes of having residents work on site.

A wild card is the interprovincial bridge. If the NCC chooses Kettle Island, turning Aviation Parkway into a truck route, that will affect connections from the old base to the Aviation and eastern parkways, says Ottawa architect Barry Padolsky, a member of the previous design team.

“If you build a bridge and connect the Queensway with it, there are a lot of implications. How the Rockcliffe lands will be planned to cope with that is another big issue.”

CLC hopes to submit a community design plan to the city for approval in spring 2014. Before offering lots to builders in 2016, it would put in streets, services and public space.

Though the company would like to sell to a variety of smaller builders, it is not averse to a single large builder. As part of a participation agreement, the Algonquins of Ontario have right of first refusal.

Schultz foresees a mix of housing, including single-detached, rowhouses and stacked townhouses. Condo and rental apartment buildings would rise four to eight storeys. Affordable housing is also on the agenda.

“Tall buildings aren’t out of the question,” Schultz says, but Ottawa developers have suggested highrise isn’t viable outside downtown.

CLC will look to developers for guidance for the first phases “so our design is informed by what market conditions tell us. In the short term, the real estate market is an important consideration.” The trend seems to be for smaller, affordable units, he says.

Last summer, CLC invited six Canadian teams to apply for the job of creating an urban design, a landscape plan and architectural guidelines. It hired Toronto firms Brook McIlroy and Janet Rosenberg and Associates Landscape Architects.

“We’re looking at low-to-mid-rise forms to take advantage of the topography and not lose the sense of the rolling landscape and mature tree canopy,” says urban designer Anne McIlroy.

“Parking is something we need to look at aggressively if we’re going to make this a new community that is defined by walkable precincts and a network of paths and cycle trails.”

Landscape architect Janet Rosenberg says there will be greenery throughout, including a large central park, medium sized parks and small parkettes. Forested areas will be preserved; stormwater kept on site for reuse. “The land is really going to dictate what happens.”

http://www.canada.com/business/Former+airbase+redevelopment+must+address+roads+traffic/7607775/story.html

lrt's friend
Nov 27, 2012, 8:14 PM
CLC is talking to city officials about providing rapid bus service between the site and the Blair Road transit station.

Didn't I say this just recently?

When you look at the location and Blair Station, this is a very round about way into the city, but it is typical of how we plan everything. Make people want to use their car.

J.OT13
Nov 27, 2012, 8:19 PM
Ya, nearly every Transitway station has been built in a giant parking lot. God forbid we serve the city.

McC
Nov 27, 2012, 8:25 PM
this is a very round about way into the city, but it is typical of how we plan everything. Make people want to use their car.
whilst musing vaguely about a desire for trams down any given busy corridor.

J.OT13
Nov 27, 2012, 8:28 PM
whilst musing vaguely about a desire for trams down any given busy corridor.

Like the ones we took out in 58'. This city is incapable of moving forward.