[worldlyhaligonian]

http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/images/MVC-004F.JPG

[worldlyhaligonian]

Link: http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/FastFerry.html

Halifax/Bedford Fast Ferry Project Update
Monday, February 26, 2007


HRM has recently completed the Halifax/Bedford Fast Ferry Cultivation Study. The study included a market analysis, economic analysis, wake-wash assessment, and stakeholder consultations. The study recommends the design and construction of two high-speed vessels to operate the service.

Halifax Regional Council has approved the project in principle subject to funding.

Staff is continuing with the project and are presently carrying out consultations with other harbour stakeholders to lay out operating criteria.




Fast Ferry Preview - Friday, October 28th 2005
On Friday, October 29th and Saturday, October 30th 2005, HRM chartered the vessel, Whaling City Express, for sea trials and data collection as part of the investigation into the feasibility of fast ferry service between Bedford and downtown Halifax. This catamaran ferry is based in New Bedford MA and is similar to the vessel being considered for operation in Halifax Harbour.

A comprehensive Ferry Cultivation Study is expected to be completed in December 2005 and will be recommended to Regional Council for further consideration and action.

As part of the sea trial component of the study now underway, HRM invited the public on board the fast ferry on Saturday, October 29th. A total of 150 passengers were accommodated per trip on a first come, first serve basis. A round trip was made between Bedford and Halifax, but did not stop in Halifax. The fast ferry trip is approximately 20 minutes each way.

Download the HRM Regional Plan on Transportation (PDF)
Stay tuned for more information as it becomes available!



It really shouldn't be taking this long to figure out whether or not this is feasible.

[someone123]

Everything involving the city or province takes longer than it should, although in many cases there are complicating factors that aren't really described in these articles.

From a demand point of view, the ferries are a no brainer. The issues are reliability and the wake generated by the vessels, plus of course the city has to pay for them and they have to come from somewhere. I guess they would dock at Convoy Quay in Bedford and maybe Purdy's Wharf in Halifax?

[hfx_chris]

For downtown it would make sense to incorporate it into the existing terminal area, possibly a redevelopment of that little park behind the law courts.

As far as the ferries being a no brainer... I think light rail is a no brainer, but we see where that's going :P


Oh by the way, what a great photo, really shows the ass ugly polka-dot patchwork of a paint job on the MacKay Bridge...

[Jonovision]

Light Rail will never work in this city, we don't have enough space, density, or population. I was at a lecture by dave mccusker, hrms transportation planner. And he brought up some good point about light rail. because the tracks are owned by cn and the nature of the area they pass through, most of the time they aren't allowed to go at any sort of speed. thus making the trip in from bedford no more faster then it would be by car or bus. Also, because of the nature of the tracks they have to use heavy rail cars instead of light rail, so they couldnt switch onto a embedded rail system. And one last point, the train station is on the opposite end of the downtown then most of the offices that people would be commuting too anyway. I'm pretty sure mccusker said that the fast ferry would be faster than the light rail because of circumstances.

[hfx_chris]

I don't understand Dave McCusker, he's so anti-light rail it hurts me.

It's very doable in Halifax. CN may own the lines, but it would be easy enough to share them. Or rather it might have been before HRM allowed CN to pull up the second rail line through the cut in the west end. The argument about not being able to use light rail trains is BS. Ottawa's O-Train, travels on the same rail lines the freight trains used to take, and in fact they were sharing the line for a number of years before CN decided they didn't need them anymore and the city of Ottawa bought them.
Yes the train station is at the south end, but that's the Via rail station. Build Halifax's light rail station in the downtown core. If they ever destroy that Cogswell interchange, that would be a perfect spot for a light rail and bus terminal, with connections to the pedway system.

[Keith P.]

I wouldn't expect anything less from McCusker.... he is a burned-out bureaucrat who is totally at a loss for ideas other than traffic chicanes and speed bumps.

Consider this: the Cogswell interchange is going away sometime soon. Make that a site for a downtown rail terminus. The line then goes north thru the Dockyard (plenty of room there) along the old rail cut that parallels Barrington and towards Ceres at the Basin. That would be a new purpose built rail line since there are none suitable there now. When you get to the Basin you either adapt an existing line or build a new one parallel to those. No need to share with CN, they are only using single-track there beyond the marshalling yard now anyway as I understand it. You could have a station at the end of Hammonds Plains Rd. If you built a dedicated spur line you could have the main terminus on the site of the old rifle range. Problem solved. :cool:

[someone123]

Yes, I think that an integrated transit terminal linking to a rail line around the Cogswell site would be great.

When did light rail become limited to *only* running cars along the existing CN-owned rail cut route? All kinds of options are available. I don't disagree that that alternative has serious problems, but the fact that one might not work does not invalidate a whole array of potential transit possibilities.

To me it seems really worrisome that our politicians and city staff spend so much of their time arguing against ideas and present so few creative solutions.

[hfx_chris]

When did light rail become limited to *only* running cars along the existing CN-owned rail cut route? All kinds of options are available. I don't disagree that that alternative has serious problems, but the fact that one might not work does not invalidate a whole array of potential transit possibilities.
Oh certainly there are other options, but using existing infrastructure just makes the most sense. It's basically the longest uninterrupted stretch into downtown; no traffic lights, no intersections, etc.

[Jonovision]

I still argue against light rail. You need good density along the line to get good ridership in order to make any project feasible. Those conditions do not exist in HRM right now and I don't see them being available within the next 25 years either. We just don't have the population to support it. What other cities around the world have light rail with a population under 500,000?

[hfx_chris]

Trenton, NJ (83,923)
Salt Lake City, Utah (178,858)
Tacoma, Washington (201,700)
Jersey City, NJ (241,791)
Buffalo, NY (279,745)
Newark, NJ (281,402)
Pittsburgh, PA (312,819)
St. Louis, MO (353,837)
Minneapolis, MN (387,970)
Sacramento, CA (467,343)
Cleveland, Ohio (478,403)

Close:
Portland, Oregon (562,690)
Denver, Colorado (566,974)
Boston, MA (590,763)

And that's just the United States. If you want I can go through Europe and Asia as well.


And yes I realize HRM is a lot larger geographically than a lot of the examples I've given above, and that a lot of the ones given above are populations for the city proper.. but it still gives a good idea that light rail can work in a lot of places of similar sizes to Halifax.
Oh, and all of the cities I've listed above have light rapid transit systems, not trollycoaches or streetcars.

[hfx_chris]

As far as density along the line, you do not need that, you just need density in certain areas along the line, with one station in each area - a station in the Timberlea/Beechville area, one in Beaver Bank, one in Fall River/Windsor Junction area.

[someone123]

Some of those aren't really small cities, but there are some rail lines in truly small NA cities like Kenosha, WI, and all kinds of rail systems in comparable European cities. Furthermore, many of those systems listed serve areas less densely populated than the parts of Halifax that the Bedford Hwy line passes through.

That being said, why can't Halifax be the first city of a certain size to build something like light rail? Obviously it has to be carefully considered first but I've never gotten the feeling that the idea has been given a fair shake.

[terrynorthend]

Trenton, NJ (83,923)
Salt Lake City, Utah (178,858)
Tacoma, Washington (201,700)
Jersey City, NJ (241,791)
Buffalo, NY (279,745)
Newark, NJ (281,402)
Pittsburgh, PA (312,819)
St. Louis, MO (353,837)
Minneapolis, MN (387,970)
Sacramento, CA (467,343)
Cleveland, Ohio (478,403)

Close:
Portland, Oregon (562,690)
Denver, Colorado (566,974)
Boston, MA (590,763)


These population numbers are municipal proper. All those cities have much larger metropolitan populations.
for example..

Salt Lake City, UT (1,018,826)
Pittsburgh, PA (2,370,776)
Boston, MA (4,455,217)

That's why Salt Lake City was able to host the Olympics and Pittsburgh and Boston can support multiple major league sports teams, and precisely the reason they need commuter rail.

[hfx_chris]

These population numbers are municipal proper. All those cities have much larger metropolitan populations.I said that didn't I?

[Wishblade]

I said that didn't I?

Yes you did, but the Metro area is so much larger from the municipal proper, that the point you were trying to make is moot really. Some of the cities you listed are 10x the size of HRM in population. Their rail systems don't just service the urban core.

Regardless, I don't see a rail system in Halifax as that far-fetched.

[Jonovision]

And also if you want to look at Europe you have to take into account that population density overall, within whatever country is much greater. You have entire towns along railways that now serve as commuter neighbourhoods for larger metro areas like london. Nova Scotia doesn't even come close to being able to supporting something like the network you see in England, or the netherlands.

[hfx_chris]

That's why nobody here is saying we- oh forget it. Obviously you're anti-rail for some reason.

[worldlyhaligonian]

And also if you want to look at Europe you have to take into account that population density overall, within whatever country is much greater. You have entire towns along railways that now serve as commuter neighbourhoods for larger metro areas like london. Nova Scotia doesn't even come close to being able to supporting something like the network you see in England, or the netherlands.

I agree in terms of total network, but the city metro here in Amsterdam is exactly how it should work for halifax. I'm not talking about "commuter rail" (as those link all cities in the netherlands) per-se, just a metro that would access dartmouth at one end, bedford at the other, and would therefore be able to service the peninsula and the mainland with like 2 lines and connections. Here in Amsterdam, its almost completely above ground... which is required in Halifax due to our geological formations. Its also a newer metro, with clean stations. The population density isn't crazy here, as there are very few buildings over 3 stories. I think Amsterdam is a perfect case study for halifax.

I don't think that using the existing rail network in halifax is feasible, but the path it follows could easily be incorporated for a peninsula route. I'm talking like a station at westend mall area, quinpool, south end, downtown.

I would like to see a metro and a high speed ferry, they are two different options that would serve different groups. A metro reaching as far as bedford would be good for everyday people traffic whereas the ferry would be more for the workers commuting specifically to downtown.

Overall, Halifax has terrible public transportation and something needs to be done. I feel as though when I don't have access to a car that I can't get anywhere, especially when considering developments like DC or Bayer's Lake. I love cars, but we have to take a realistic approach to transportation and stop being such a rural feeling city.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Also, I can walk most of the length of some of the subway lines here in about 1.5 or 2 hours. The distances are shorter than any metro I have ever encountered.

[someone123]

It is a really complicated issue and the specifics vary between cities so it's hard to make exact comparisons, but obviously Halifax's system would have far fewer kms or track and a smaller number of trains. Initially it could be a commuter rail type system with only a few trips per day but that could be expanded to the point where the system were more like, say, subways in terms of frequency.

The small city argument has some weight but then again the HRM's per capita investment in transit is pathetic any way you look at it. The HRM has a larger tax base than many US cities with rail systems, and the ability to coordinate major projects like rail transit was one of the justifications for creating the HRM in the first place. If all council is going to do is discuss cat bylaws then amalgamation was pointless. They could do that in Bedford town hall meetings.

The closest thing I can think of as an apples-to-apples comparison between cities is to look at per capita transit investment. If we want to look at Amsterdam, they have built a 52 station underground system with billions of dollars. People here act as if spending $10M on transit is huge, and yet equivalent spending in Halifax to Amsterdam investment would easily be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Closer to home, the Sheppard subway line in Toronto cost just under $1B. Toronto is about 13 times larger than Halifax. When is the last time the transit system here saw 1/13 of a billion, or 77 million dollars in capital investment? The answer to that is never, although maybe the city came close in the 1950s or 1800s.

[worldlyhaligonian]

52 station underground system?
http://www.reed.edu/~reyn/AMSTERDaM.GIF

I'm only counting 48?

As well, this 48 number is really skewed. Many stations are would be considered so close in Halifax terms that I would estimate 50% of these stations wouldn't be needed. I don't know if its because people are lazy here or the metro is so slow, however it doesn't make sense to me. Some stops are literally 3 minute walks from eachother, some are much father apart and therefore relevant to a Halifax comparison. Many bus stops I have to walk to when I'm living in Halifax in the peninsular west end (such as the 52), take me longer to walk to then whole distances between metro stops. Stations are some of the most expensive part of building the network.

Also, there are many more lines than I am proposing, with one of them going to virtually out of Amsterdam itself. I really think following the Toronto model of having like 2-3 lines works best and would signifcantly reduce expenditure, especially the way trains can access the peninsula through the south end. And east-west line maybe as north as Almon would compliment that well.

With regards to the amount spent on the Sheppard Line, its alot longer a distance than I thought it would be when I took it a couple times in the summer. Its a beautiful subway line compared to the most of the old stations on the Bloor-Danforth Line. And the kicker in terms of cost here... the Sheppard Line is underground. A long undeground with several brand new indoor stations is astronomical in cost.

I think that if almost all of the transit was above ground, save maybe key urban areas, with minimalist stations that have connections to buses... this concept is not that infeasible and would definitely help people wanting to come into the city from afar, with outreaching bus lines. Would definitely change the role of Halifax, Dartmouth, and Bedford specifically as a part of the greater HRM.

Does the HRM not own alot of land that they can use with regards to the major parts of this project or to help leverage it? (Imagine the selling of the Cogswell lands leveraged new transportation infrastructure) I don't know, maybe I'm a dreamer, but I think the city council is made up of verrrryyy "downhome" local type people who have their heads in the sand and just produce mountains of studies and worry about cat bylaws. I know one thing, I'm happy I'm living abroad because its difficult to get perspective in Halifax.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

I agree in terms of total network, but the city metro here in Amsterdam is exactly how it should work for halifax. I'm not talking about "commuter rail" (as those link all cities in the netherlands) per-se, just a metro that would access dartmouth at one end, bedford at the other, and would therefore be able to service the peninsula and the mainland with like 2 lines and connections. Here in Amsterdam, its almost completely above ground... which is required in Halifax due to our geological formations. Its also a newer metro, with clean stations. The population density isn't crazy here, as there are very few buildings over 3 stories. I think Amsterdam is a perfect case study for halifax.


Amsterdam is VERY much denser than Halifax even though it isn't a tall city. Not a good comparison in my mind.

Density does not equal height and vice versa.

[worldlyhaligonian]

True, as space is one of the biggest concerns of the Dutch. The entire city isn't significantly dense: there are massive parks such as Vondelpark and Rembrant park and the density drops significantly a short distance out of the center. Also, in the city center there is no height as mentioned, so even though there is a dwelling virtually everywhere that isn't a canal, its all limited.

Regardless, I'm not talking about Halifax specifically right now, but I'm not talking about some far fetched growth for the city either. I think as things develop this is a logical step to transportation, and I think the current state of Amsterdam reflects some points of Halifax's make-up. Metro's also have the habit of increasing growth specifically around stations, which I really witnessed in Toronto over the summer. (Even in the shady neighborhoods, lol.)

[hfx_chris]

Not sure if Toronto would be an appropriate comparison for Halifax, I was thinking something a bit more simpler like Ottawa's O-Train, which only has 1 line and 5 stops. Halifax's stops would be spaced a lot farther apart than Ottawa, Toronto or Amsterdams systems.

And just so you all know what page I'm on, I'm not proposing a subway, or a commuter rail system. I'm in favor of LRT, light rail transit. A perfect example of the size and type of train:

Dallas, TX "DART" LRT train (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:DART_rail.jpg)


Some examples of stations:

Ottawa's O-Train Carleton University station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carletonstation.jpg)

A few shots of Calgary's C-Train stations:
Sidewalk station, would be required in downtown Halifax (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Centre_Street_(C-Train)_cropped.jpg)

Actual station platform, could be used in areas like West End Mall or Mount Saint Vincent (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Shawnessy_(C-Train)_2.jpg)

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Regardless, I'm not talking about Halifax specifically right now, but I'm not talking about some far fetched growth for the city either. I think as things develop this is a logical step to transportation, and I think the current state of Amsterdam reflects some points of Halifax's make-up. Metro's also have the habit of increasing growth specifically around stations, which I really witnessed in Toronto over the summer. (Even in the shady neighborhoods, lol.)

I'd love to tap the development potential of light rail in Halifax. If that was the goal than the speed of the system might not be the most important feature, nor would it necessarily reach far into the suburbs. To tap development potential I would run a line along Robie Street, with connections to downtown, Spring Garden, and hospitals/universities. Run it right up Robie, on street but in seperate lanes where possible, than off the peninsula. It's not necessarily the most important route from a transportation point of view but Robie has such huge brownfield opportunities that I'd use LRT to direct growth into that corridor.

[SHiRO]

worldlyhaligonian aren't you forgetting that Amsterdam also has the densest tram network in the world next to the metro and we aren't even taking into account the busses and the national rail (9 stations in Amsterdam).
I don't see how Amsterdam could be a case study for Halifax.

Also, central Amsterdam is denser than all but two or three similar sized areas in North America (one of which would be Manhattan).

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6686/amsterdamtransitresizeaa4.png

[mr.x2]

fast ferry? we have unused fast ferries here in BC, we'd gladly sell them to you guys.

they are currently in mint condition, shrink wrapped in plastic in Vancouver harbour. :D
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e0/CIMG1065.JPG

[SHiRO]

Oh this thread was about fast ferries? :D
Amsterdam has those too.

Rail or ferry transit could be posible in Halifax, but I don't think you should look at most European cities as case studies as the build environment is totally different.
Maybe there are some cities up north which would compare? Bergen, Norway?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen#Transportation

[someone123]

Halifax already has two ferry routes. The third would go out to Bedford and a fourth would be Purcell's Cove. Mostly the reason for the delay comes down to the city wanting other levels of government to fund the project, not concerns over feasibility/ridership.

Whether or not Halifax is comparable to Amsterdam is irrelevant. The bottom line is that the city is underserved by transit. There are 20-30,000 people working downtown, 10-15,000 at the naval dockyard/shipyard/etc, and probably 10-15,000 more at the universities and hospitals. It's hard to imagine demand being insufficient for this kind of situation, and only 4-5 km of rail would be required to link these up within the core. A suburban line would be maybe another 8 km.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Halifax already has two ferry routes. The third would go out to Bedford and a fourth would be Purcell's Cove. Mostly the reason for the delay comes down to the city wanting other levels of government to fund the project, not concerns over feasibility/ridership.

Whether or not Halifax is comparable to Amsterdam is irrelevant. The bottom line is that the city is underserved by transit. There are 20-30,000 people working downtown, 10-15,000 at the naval dockyard/shipyard/etc, and probably 10-15,000 more at the universities and hospitals. It's hard to imagine demand being insufficient for this kind of situation, and only 4-5 km of rail would be required to link these up within the core. A suburban line would be maybe another 8 km.

So 12 km of light rail at $20 million per km = $240 million. And you only have one suburban line. It's probably nearly impossible to get grade separation to increase speed so the trip-time advantage over BRT would be very mininmal. I'm not really sure what you gain by introducing LRT in Halifax in the near future. Long term I think we are best served by developing BRT corridors for much less and keeping the possibility of LRT open by reserving right of ways where possible and structuring streets to accept them where needed.

We're unbelievably underserved by transit but that doesn't mean light rail is the solution.

[SHiRO]

Has anyone looked into the plans of Bergen, Norway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bybanen
http://www.bybanen.no/english.html

Perhaps this should be a case study for Halifax.

[someone123]

So 12 km of light rail at $20 million per km = $240 million. And you only have one suburban line. It's probably nearly impossible to get grade separation to increase speed so the trip-time advantage over BRT would be very mininmal. I'm not really sure what you gain by introducing LRT in Halifax in the near future. Long term I think we are best served by developing BRT corridors for much less and keeping the possibility of LRT open by reserving right of ways where possible and structuring streets to accept them where needed.

We're unbelievably underserved by transit but that doesn't mean light rail is the solution.

I think your cost estimates are a little off. Many US systems have incurred costs of less than $20M per *mile*, or about $12.5M per kilometre. Most of those systems have dedicated right of ways. Systems with higher costs normally involved some kind of tunneling, which would not be a part of a light rail system in Halifax.

As for the $240M figure, why is that so unattainable anyway? HRM is spending $300M or more just to build sewage plants that arguably provide less real benefit to the city. There was just a debate about bringing the CWGs here, and the province and city didn't seem to have major problems with providing up to about $750M in funding. It was only when it ballooned past a billion that they decided to call it quits.

[hfx_chris]

That $20M per mile figure sounds more like an appropriate cost for setting up an LRT system starting from scratch, or as someone123 said tunneling. We've got an existing rail system that goes all the way from Windsor Junction (and beyond) straight into our downtown core, passing next to or very close to 3 universities and a shopping mall. It would need some work as far as altering speed limits to make it more competitive with buses, and working out some form of sharing agreement with CN (unless the put back the rail they ripped up a few years back). The major expenses I see (aside from the trains themselves) is in building stations (but even then they don't have to be anything too elaborate) and the downtown leg which would require changes to traffic patterns and laying of rail in the streets.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Much of Toronto's proposed LRT system is on street and is still going to be in the 30 million/km range.

If you want to go diesel on existing rail (like the O-train) you could probably get by in the 5 million/km range. I don't think the existing track in Halifax is a good corridor for transit however. It's too peripheral.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

As for the $240M figure, why is that so unattainable anyway? HRM is spending $300M or more just to build sewage plants that arguably provide less real benefit to the city. There was just a debate about bringing the CWGs here, and the province and city didn't seem to have major problems with providing up to about $750M in funding. It was only when it ballooned past a billion that they decided to call it quits.

It's not an unbelievablve figure to spend on transit. I would gladly spend a quarter billion. I think you get much more bang for your buck in Halifax with a BRT system.

[Keith P.]

It's not an unbelievablve figure to spend on transit. I would gladly spend a quarter billion. I think you get much more bang for your buck in Halifax with a BRT system.

Our road network is too overloaded, obsolete and dysfunctional for any bus-based system to be worthwhile. If the authorities won't spend money on roads, maybe they can be convinced to spend it on LRT.

[someone123]

Most people say the big problem is finding the dedicated ROW for transit, and I don't see how BRT helps there. If anything, it's worse since buses require a lot more space.

The only benefit would be that lines could run directly from neighbourhoods through the bus lanes to other areas but transfers to rail are a minor complication and right now the complexity and inefficiency of current bus routes is a major drawback.

[hfx_chris]

If you want to go diesel on existing rail (like the O-train) you could probably get by in the 5 million/km range. I don't think the existing track in Halifax is a good corridor for transit however. It's too peripheral.

It's almost a guarantee that any system Halifax might put in place would be diesel, and not electric. Still, nothing wrong with diesel.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

I think LRT refers to so many different systems that maybe we're discussing different things sometimes.

What could Halifax have:

Tramway - tramcars running on streets with car traffic. We could definetly have that but it's not going to be any faster than buses. You'd get more capacity and more comfort.

Streetcars with own ROW - you'd gain some speed but again you have to find the right of way. I think Robie or Quinpool would be definite possibilites to find a lane of traffic, or Bayer's Road. Either way you need to take lanes of traffic away from cars. That's a tough sell. So you have the same problem that BRT has, plus you've added a lot of additional cost.

Dedicated LRT ROW - this is the best transit option, whether diesel or electric. The only existing rail is the railcut, and personally I don't think that's a good route. Where else could you put a track in this city? I don't think the corridors are there.

The best option for Halifax is some sort of mix of those ideas. On street downtown, own lanes where possible, possibly some grade seperated right of way to increase the speed.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

The only benefit would be that lines could run directly from neighbourhoods through the bus lanes to other areas but transfers to rail are a minor complication and right now the complexity and inefficiency of current bus routes is a major drawback.

I think that is an enormous benefit. Tranfers may be a minor inconvenience but they can add significant time to a trip which makes transit less desireable.

Regardless of whether you build a BRT network, LRT lines, or do neither the bus routes definetly need to be totally rebuilt. Whether you rebuild them around BRT or LRT is moot in my mind.

[someone123]

Not many cities start out with perfect ROWs for a new transit system. I agree that some kind of hybrid approach would be good. I think an ideal line might be partly in traffic and then partly in its own ROW. Some money might be spent in key areas to avoid traffic and therefore speed up the trips considerably. In Halifax traffic is mostly bad because of a few bottlenecks.

Streetcars are a lot nicer than buses, and electrified buses are somewhat nicer than diesel (and possibly cheaper to run?). They also feel like more permanent infrastructure than bus lines and make densification and car-free day to day living much more attractive. I think a case could be made for converting a couple of routes such as the 1.

When it comes to electrified buses, Halifax was actually the first city in NA to fully switch over and for a while I think it had the biggest fleet. There was also of course a large streetcar network before that, and many streets still have buried track and cobblestone.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I find it amazing that Halifax once had a streetcar system, it sounds so urban.

[skyscraper_1]

Here is an old picture from the Westen Hotel.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u257/sarahann85/CN004888.jpg
You can see the street car on Hollis. Amazing that such a backwater city like Halifax(more so pre-1950) had street cars.

[someone123]

One big problem with those streetcars was that they were very small.

There are a bunch of trolley bus pictures here: http://www.trolleybuses.net/hfx/hfx.htm

Here's an older streetcar picture. Can anybody identify this scene? Maybe it was around the hospitals?
http://davesrailpix.com/odds/ns/jpg/halifax07.jpg

[hfx_chris]

Not that amazing, skyscraper. Streetcar/tram systems were very popular back then, a lot of cities were operating them. And you're correct in that Halifax was one of the only cities in North America to be 100% electric for so long, whether the little Birneys pictured above or the electric trolleycoaches from 1950-1969.
Anyway, the history of Halifax's transit systems (and present transit system) is a huge interest for me, and I could go on about that for a while, but we need to think about the present (and future) and I doubt we're going to see electric trollycoaches any time soon (much to my disappointment). On top of that I doubt we would ever see an electrified light rail system either, as I can pretty much guarantee you it would be diesel. Ottawa's O-Train (which I'm getting tired of making references to, but it really should be a model for Halifax to use) is diesel and is just fine.


Somebody needs to create a light rail topic... this going back and forth between two different topics to talk about light rail is getting confusing.

[Keith P.]

One big problem with those streetcars was that they were very small.

There are a bunch of trolley bus pictures here: http://www.trolleybuses.net/hfx/hfx.htm


That's an interesting link, to see the buildings in the background as much as anything. In the ad from Ohio Brass there is a nice-looking building with an awning over the sidewalk that I cannot identify. Any ideas? Several of the pics at Brunswick and Duke show the site where Scotia Square now stands, with the old market/police station (I believe so, anyway) on Brunswick quite prominent.

Here's an older streetcar picture. Can anybody identify this scene? Maybe it was around the hospitals?
http://davesrailpix.com/odds/ns/jpg/halifax07.jpg

Something is telling me it's more west end. That building in the background looks like a school. But the Imperial/Esso station on the other side baffles me.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I think its Chebucto Rd. near St. Matthias St.

[someone123]

By building with awnings do you mean the one that says "Zellers"? That's on Barrington Street where the Discovery Centre is currently located. The Green Lantern building is next door. Sadly, pictures from the 50s and 60s make it pretty clear that Barrington has declined considerably. Then again, other parts of the city were much less developed back then.

[Keith P.]

By building with awnings do you mean the one that says "Zellers"?

Nope, that one was obvious. It's the building here:

http://www.trolleybuses.net/hfx/htm/can_h_hfx_ad_ob_ridinggoesup_195106_bt.htm

[someone123]

Oh.. I would assume that's the Lord Nelson.

[Haliguy]

Yeah...I would say that is the Lord Nelson for sure

[Keith P.]

There are a bunch of trolley bus pictures here: http://www.trolleybuses.net/hfx/hfx.htm


Resurrecting this thread to offer an artifact of our city's past that I discovered today.

The Nova Scotia Light and Power Brill electric coaches ran from 1949 to 1969. I grew up in the 60s and remember quite well taking them to go to movies, school, etc. They had yellow and silver paint schemes -- you couldn't miss one.

There used to be a coach that ran along Agricola St. When they went to diesel Halifax Transit buses that route was dropped. I recall a fair amount of controversy at the time about the Agricola neighborhood losing it's route, although in reality neither Robie nor Gottingen is all that far away.

Anyway, back to the present. Today I parked on Agricola St in front of C&R Auto Parts, just south of Charles St. When I walked to the curb I noticed something that took me back 37 years.

In front of C&R, the strip between the curb and sidewalk that is normally grass was instead concrete. Old concrete. That was what used to be done at trolley coach stops. And then I saw it: the curb itself had remnants of old yellow paint in it. In some places it was quite distinct, others were worn away, but it was quite apparent. And that is how NSL&P used to mark their stops, by painting the curbs yellow to match the coaches.

Amazing -- that must have been one helluva good paint they used.

[someone123]

That is interesting. I've also heard that in the 70s there were bizarre purple bus shelters (?) and that you can find one of them in Mount Uniacke, but that was a few years ago so it may be gone now.

I am living in Vancouver at the moment and my area is still served by electric trolleybuses. They are much nicer than diesel (smoother, quieter, and no emissions) and presumably cost less to run but I don't know how expensive it is to install the wires. The other limitation is that of course buses must then follow the overhead lines, although I think some are both electric and diesel.

[Keith P.]

That is interesting. I've also heard that in the 70s there were bizarre purple bus shelters (?) and that you can find one of them in Mount Uniacke, but that was a few years ago so it may be gone now.


Yep, they were certainly unique. Purple, white and orange were the Halifax Transit colors back in the '70s and the shelters matched that. Their early efforts were fiberglass or plastic "pod" shelters. They had elongated oval shaped windows. Hard to describe, but they looked vaguely nautical, something like those survival pods you see on oil rigs. Either that, or like a spaceship. Wish I could find a picture of one.

[hfx_chris]

In front of C&R, the strip between the curb and sidewalk that is normally grass was instead concrete. Old concrete. That was what used to be done at trolley coach stops. And then I saw it: the curb itself had remnants of old yellow paint in it. In some places it was quite distinct, others were worn away, but it was quite apparent. And that is how NSL&P used to mark their stops, by painting the curbs yellow to match the coaches.
Wow. Looks like I'm taking a trip to Agricola next time I have some free time. Thanks for noting that!

Yep, they were certainly unique. Purple, white and orange were the Halifax Transit colors back in the '70s and the shelters matched that. Their early efforts were fiberglass or plastic "pod" shelters. They had elongated oval shaped windows. Hard to describe, but they looked vaguely nautical, something like those survival pods you see on oil rigs. Either that, or like a spaceship. Wish I could find a picture of one.
Don't need a picture actually; they're using one as an active shelter at the bus stop in front of the Transit Centre on Ilsley Avenue in Burnside, except it has since been painted white with green and blue stripes, to match Metro Transit's 80's/90's livery.

[terrynorthend]

What was that blue/gray concrete building at the corner of Brunswick and Duke?

[Keith P.]

What was that blue/gray concrete building at the corner of Brunswick and Duke?

I vaguely remember as a kid going to a building in that vicinity with my parents. On the backside was the city market while upstairs was the police station. But I don't know if it was there or further south on Brunswick.

[kwajo]

I find it amazing that Halifax once had a streetcar system, it sounds so urban.

You can see the street car on Hollis. Amazing that such a backwater city like Halifax(more so pre-1950) had street cars.
Not really, streetcars were once very common in the Maritimes. And I don't just mean in Halifax's peer Saint John (in fact their streetcar system predated Halifax by 3 years), but Moncton, Charlottetown, Glace Bay/Sydney, St. John's, and (perhaps, I can't remember) Fredericton as well. Actually the streetcar system in Saint John was successful enough that they actually began the planning phase of creating the first subway system in Canada, primarily to link the East and West sides of the harbour.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Transit debate stops, starts, stalls

By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE Staff Reporter
Wed. Dec 12 - 5:42 AM

A municipal staff presentation on public transit set off Halifax regional councillors on Tuesday.

It led to frustration on the part of veteran politicians, who debated the merits of various projects, including the proposed fast ferry for Bedford.

Even the value of such an exercise, which took about 2½ hours and bumped a taxi-licensing issue off the agenda at a committee of the whole session, was the subject of part of regional council’s discussion.

"Please, staff, don’t come back anymore," Coun. Linda Mosher (Purcells Cove-Armdale) told municipal employees who had presented a transportation planning update. "Because every time you give us an update, we just sit around and we don’t accomplish anything."

Deputy Mayor Steve Adams, chairman of the city’s taxi commission, said the transit meeting was a real head-shaker. He noted the only thing council decided was to put off a budget-related issue that senior staff suggested be deferred until fiscal information is presented next month.

"Nothing’s been passed (and) we’ve asked for nothing, except the deferral," said Mr. Adams, who represents Spryfield-Herring Cove. He was annoyed that the taxi licensing item had been temporarily derailed.

"Two-and-a-half hours just to defer something is wrong," Mr. Adams told his council colleagues.

Regarding the planned commuter ferry for Bedford, which council has already approved in principle, the committee meeting heard city hall has options when it comes time to obtain vessels.

The city can buy new ones built locally or elsewhere, or purchase used ferries suitable for the roughly 15-minute trip between suburban Bedford and downtown Halifax.

Fast-ferry plans have been in the works for years; if government funding falls into place, it’ll take up to 30 months for the project to reach fruition. Municipal funds earmarked for the scheme total $6.7 million.

A federal program called "short sea shipping" is where the city will try to land its commuter-ferry money from Ottawa, council was told.

Tuesday’s transit talk took a detour when councillors learned new MetroLink connections, which will offer rapid-transit bus service to Clayton Park and Spryfield, have been delayed until 2012. Municipal staff said a better time to discuss the MetroLink projects would be during upcoming budget talks.

But Coun. Andrew Younger (East Dartmouth-The Lakes) disagreed and made a motion to have "a high priority" placed on the rapid-transit bus projects and another that would serve Main Street in Dartmouth. His motion was defeated after considerable debate.

Before the motion died, Dan English, the municipality’s chief administrative officer, cautioned regional council about considering the approval of such a motion before examining crucial financial material. "Council should be aware of changing directions in mid-course," he said.

In agreeing with Mr. English’s advice, Coun. Steve Streatch (Eastern Shore-Musquodoboit Valley) referred to an organized group of city hall critics who have said they intend to field candidates in next year’s municipal election.

"You know, if you (councillors) actually listened to Dan, you’d be hearing what he’s saying," said Mr. Streatch.

"And you wonder why there’s a group over there that wants to bump half of us out of here. This is the reason."

Looks like this municipality will have no major transit projects until at least 2011-2012. :hell: This is getting ridiculous, Metro Link has been one of the most popular services operated by Metro Transit and there is a consultant report saying thousands want to ride a ferry from Bedford. This leadership is a joke and our city is going to suffocate before we get any real attention to important issues.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Metro Link buses won't service Spryfield, Clayton Park till 2012
STÉPHANE MASSINON

A delay in more Metro Link buses had some councillors wondering yesterday about the importance of the Bedford fast ferry.

After being told that new Metro Link bus services for Clayton Park, Spryfield and the Main Street corridor will now likely be delayed until 2012, many councillors said they did not want to wait even longer for the popular bus service.

Rockingham-Wentworth Coun. Debbie Hum was most annoyed by the development.

Every year, she said, council gets told the extra Metro Link buses won't come until a later and later date.

"Now we're at 2012?" she asked.

"I cannot at this time support the fast ferry," Hum concluded at the committee of the whole meeting.

The delay in the Metro Link buses is due to a lack of cash.

City staff want to be able to fund the purchase of more regular buses to make up the current shortage. Staff estimate the city needs 24 new regular buses to make up the gap.

That said, the Bedford fast ferry's $20-million price-tag looked appealing to councillors who want immediate money to fund more Metro Link buses.

Councillors then debated the idea of setting the Metro Link buses as a budget priority so that when next year's budget comes down, staff members know that Metro Link buses are important to councillors.

"Staff are looking at the budget now and they do need to have direction from council to come back with a budget that includes (Metro Link buses servicing) those corridors," said East Dartmouth-The Lakes Coun. Andrew Younger.

The city's top bureaucrat, chief administrative officer Dan English, urged council to slow down and wait until it fully understands the financial implications of saying Metro Link buses are now the top priority.

He also clarified that the money for the fast ferry - which amounts to $6 million from HRM - has been set aside separately to leverage more cash from the province and Ottawa.

"I don't think it's good right now for council to be setting priorities. Your priorities may change after you see what we present in terms of where we're going," English said

He was careful to say that it is council's role to set priorities, but that those priorities should be set after getting the whole picture - including financial implications - of saying Metro Link buses are more important than regular buses or other projects such as the fast ferry.

Councillors then voted to defer the debate.

[someone123]

Yeah, 2012 is ridiculous. I hope nobody tries to derail the ferry because if that happens it will just be delayed while new BRT routes still won't be close to being created. I also think the new ferry would make much more of a difference than BRT in Clayton Park (which is constrained by traffic and not really BRT anyway).

Like I said, I don't even think council should be debating specific transit projects since each councillor is simply in favour of whatever would be built in their district, not what is the most efficient use of funds for the transit system of the whole city.

Transportation issues in general tend to be horribly mishandled. They are just about the highest priority issues that the municipal government has to deal with and yet we hear more about cat bylaws and music concerts.

[kwajo]

and yet we hear more about cat bylaws and music concerts.

Clearly Halifax needs the kind of visionary leadership to solve these problems.
Idea #1? Gather together the excessive number of stray cats and use them to pull sleighs full of Clayton Park residents to their minimum-wage jobs.

See, that wasn't so hard. ;)

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Transportation issues in general tend to be horribly mishandled. They are just about the highest priority issues that the municipal government has to deal with and yet we hear more about cat bylaws and music concerts.

This is why most cities have a regional transportation authority.

[hfx_chris]

I shake my head at Council. It's difficult to even respond to this article. 2012? I mean yeah they need to order the new buses, and they do take some time to be delivered (six months to a year) but the 2012 figure is absolutely rediculous.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

I shake my head at Council. It's difficult to even respond to this article. 2012? I mean yeah they need to order the new buses, and they do take some time to be delivered (six months to a year) but the 2012 figure is absolutely rediculous.

It's pretty sad. 1 fast ferry = 20 million. 2 link routes x $15 million a piece. That's fifty million dollars. Not a large sum of money at all for what would be pretty significant improvements to transit and downtown accessibility.

Why can't anyone in coucil see that these types of infrastructure investments are necessary to support a functioning city. It's great to talk about a financial services boom but you have to move people around town if this kind of job growth is going to happen.

[Haliguy]

The city council has got the go in the next election. This is not acceptable.

[Wishblade]

Bedford-Halifax ferry tops transit funding list


Halifax is earmarking $13 million in federal public-transit funding for a highspeed ferry service.

Mayor Peter Kelly said council has agreed to spend all of the federal money allotted to the municipality on the HarbourLink ferry project connecting Bedford and Halifax.

"Harbourlink has been discussed by [council] for several years as a potential opportunity to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and get people out of their cars and into an alternative, environmentally friendly mode of transportation," he said in a release.

Council approved the HarbourLink project in principle in 2006.

The original idea was to have two 350-passenger vessels at a cost of $30 million. But after a staff review last year, the cost dropped to $20 million, with two smaller vessels carrying 250 people each.

The federal money for the Halifax Regional Municipality, announced Thursday, makes up the bulk of the funding promised to Nova Scotia.

Another $1 million will go to other transit authorities around the province, based mainly on ridership, the federal government said.

The money is to be put in a trust for use over the next two years.


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2008/03/27/hfx-fastferry.html

[Bedford_DJ]

Ottawa hands over $13m for Bedford-Halifax commuter ferry

By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE Staff Reporter
Thu. Mar 27 - 4:42 PM

The federal government Thursday dished out a major chunk of cash for a proposed commuter ferry to downtown Halifax from Bedford.

About $13 million has been earmarked for the high-speed ferry project, Transport Canada said in a release.

Another $1 million in federal funds is to go toward public transit improvements elsewhere in Nova Scotia.

The ferry money for metro comes about 2 1/2 years after trial runs on Halifax Harbour showed a fast ferry from Bedford to Halifax takes about 15 minutes in ideal conditions.

Halifax city hall’s target date for the service, to be operated by Metro Transit, was originally the fall of 2007 but the municipality has delayed the project, approved in principle by regional council, until money could be put aside.

Cost of the planned project is $30 million, Mayor Peter Kelly said. He said two, 250-passenger ferries are to be bought and a Bedford ferry terminal will need to be built.

Mr. Kelly said the city is hopeful the provincial government will contribute land, money or both to support the fast-ferry project.

“That $30-million expenditure won’t be done all at one time,” he said. “It will be phased in.”

Mr. Kelly said council has agreed to spend all the federal money allotted to the municipality for the ferry connecting Bedford and Halifax. He said the politicians made their decision behind closed doors last week.

The mayor acknowledged the in-camera decision didn’t fall under guidelines for council sessions done in secret – personnel issues, real estate matters or legal issues – but said the municipality didn’t want to step on any toes in Ottawa.

“We didn’t want to pre-empt the federal government,” Mr. Kelly told The Chronicle Herald. “We can’t approve something until they announce it.”

Source: Chronicle Herald

Hopefully this means there might be consruction on the waterfront soon.

On a little side note, construction has begun on a new Lawton's Professional Centre where the Bedford theatre used to be. This might not be really huge but it will move more Bedford ammenities to the watrfront helping on the path to eventually having a downtown (instead of just a "strip").

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Excellent news. I really think the fast ferry will be one of the most important transportation projects in HRM in a long time. Bedford is growing quickly and very poorly served by transit, and this service will bring many many new riders onto Metro Transit. I think this might prove to many that quality transit service can attract people out of their cars.

[terrynorthend]

I can't wait for this ferry..I don't own a car but love the shops in Bedford, so I will be one of the minority beneficiaries of this. A Haligonian who commutes to Bedford and back!

[Bedford_DJ]

Hopefully the community transit they're planning comes with this. Bedford has grown from a town of 6'000 in 1980ish to approximately 20'000 now (3X BIGGER in 25 years) and according to the district info on the Halifax website we now have more people then downtown, southend, westend, and lower sackville. I got a lil bored so i counted the buses. On a weekday Bfd gets 16 buses Dartmouth bound, 41 Halifax bound and 68 Sackville Bound. Those numbers may sound high but compared to other routes like #1 its nothing

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Hopefully the community transit they're planning comes with this. Bedford has grown from a town of 6'000 in 1980ish to approximately 20'000 now (3X BIGGER in 25 years) and according to the district info on the Halifax website we now have more people then downtown, southend, westend, and lower sackville. I got a lil bored so i counted the buses. On a weekday Bfd gets 16 buses Dartmouth bound, 41 Halifax bound and 68 Sackville Bound. Those numbers may sound high but compared to other routes like #1 its nothing


Some of the routes are awful too. I've taken the 80 to Bedford and it's an excruciating experience from downtown.

There's been talk of a shuttle service from Hammond's Plains with the fast ferry. I think with 20 000 people and a fairly large area some more shuttle routes are warranted but it will be interesting to see what happens. I bet they rely heavily on park and ride at the start, much like the Link has.

[kwajo]

Hopefully the community transit they're planning comes with this. Bedford has grown from a town of 6'000 in 1980ish to approximately 20'000 now (3X BIGGER in 25 years) and according to the district info on the Halifax website we now have more people then downtown, southend, westend, and lower sackville. I got a lil bored so i counted the buses. On a weekday Bfd gets 16 buses Dartmouth bound, 41 Halifax bound and 68 Sackville Bound. Those numbers may sound high but compared to other routes like #1 its nothing
I would have been impressed that you had that many bus routes to begin with. For comparison, the Kennebecasis Valley region outside Saint John grew from about 5000 in the early 80s to over 25000 now, and it only got bus service 6 months ago, and even then there are only about 10 trips a day in and out of the city.

I'm not saying that Bedford's doesn't need improvement, I'm just a bit jealous of what you already have.

[someone123]

The area with 20,000 is just the old Town of Bedford. It's definitely suburban but it's not that spread out. The whole Bedford-Sackville-Hammonds Plains-Fall River area is probably in the 80,000 people range.

Hammonds Plains, on the other hand, is in the same ballpark now and covers a much larger area. It has receives very little transit service. Tantallon/St. Margaret's, which is even further out, is in the same boat.

Shuttle routes are exactly what the ferry needs. Doing park and ride out in places like Hammonds Plains is easy because land is cheap there.

[terrynorthend]

Shuttle routes are exactly what the ferry needs. Doing park and ride out in places like Hammonds Plains is easy because land is cheap there.

Do you mean Park and Ride to the Ferry? That sounds like too much trouble for the average commuter. How many people will want to drive to a P & R, wait and take a shuttle to the Bedford Ferry Terminal, then wait and take a boat downtown. Especially when the alternative is hopping on the 102 and zipping into town. I think that Park and Ride works best when people get a straight transit "ride" from the "park".

[Bedford_DJ]

kwajo i think one of the only reasons we have this much transit is Sackville is to the north of us and they need a lot more transit (lower income, more people, ect) Except for the 86 (the one trip bus) all buses go into Sackville.

[Bedford_DJ]

Do you mean Park and Ride to the Ferry? That sounds like too much trouble for the average commuter. How many people will want to drive to a P & R, wait and take a shuttle to the Bedford Ferry Terminal, then wait and take a boat downtown. Especially when the alternative is hopping on the 102 and zipping into town. I think that Park and Ride works best when people get a straight transit "ride" from the "park".

The problem is that we will need the Park 'n Ride to service all the people. There is not enough space on the waterfront for a large parking lot and we don't really want a sea of asphalt on our beautiful waterfront. They plan to provide Park 'n Ride up on Hammonds Plains with as many buses as possible to ship the people to the terminal. They also are planning the community transit and a south entrance (near Southgate) to provide a quick entrance where people can drop-off others. I think that the shuttles are necessairy though because Bedford is extremely hilly and a lot of people wouldnt walk/bike down because they would have to walk back up.

BTW going onto the 102 defenitely doesnt "zip" you into town, its actually one of the slower routes (Burnside is quicker).

[someone123]

Yeah, you can't really "zip" anywhere from Bedford at rush hour, which is a big argument for the ferry.

I don't think shuttles to the ferry are a big problem if they connect properly to the ferry terminal and are well-timed. Since the ferry terminal's being built from scratch it can be designed to accommodate the buses and dropoffs. They might be able to put some parking by the terminal but probably not enough to accommodate everybody. Maybe in the long term they could add structured parking but I doubt that's in the budget.

Virtually every household in Hammonds Plains has one or more cars so it's usually not a problem for somebody to get a short ride somewhere. I think a 5-10 min drive to a central shuttle location (e.g. Tantallon mall, somewhere around Glen Arbour, somewhere around Kingswood/Uplands Park) would work well.

[kwajo]

kwajo i think one of the only reasons we have this much transit is Sackville is to the north of us and they need a lot more transit (lower income, more people, ect) Except for the 86 (the one trip bus) all buses go into Sackville.
Yeah for a second there I had a lapse in my knowledge of Maritime geography, and completely forgot about all the large communities surrounding Bedford which would account for the large transit draw, etc.

[Bedford_DJ]

I was reading an arcticle on the municipal budget as well as the comments and one person said we shouldn't get the fast ferry because it wouldn't pay for itself. Here are a few why that probably won't happen:

1) With less Bedford commuters driving HRM will save on road resurfacing/upkeep.
2) They could decrease the frequency of some buses and possibly get rid of the #86.
3) With the average income in Bedford around $90'000 (and this was considered) they could charge primium or higher prices on the ferrry.
4) The support for the ferry was overwhelming showing that there would be many commuters using it.

[someone123]

Most transit services in the HRM do not pay for themselves, nor do road projects. This is why the HRM collects taxes.

Most arguments I've seen against the ferry are just not valid. Expanded MetroLink service as alternative would be good but then again this would be for the Clayton Park area, not Bedford. The existing roadways between Bedford and the core are pretty congested already and are going to continue to get worse. Ferries are not affected by this congestion.

Rail would be lovely but we've had a decade of speculation and zero progress on that front. Having real ferries is better than having imaginary commuter rail.

[worldlyhaligonian]

High-speed ferry expected to get rough ride in budget debate
Last Updated: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 | 10:52 AM AT Comments2Recommend6CBC News
A fast ferry and more buses are among the big-ticket items expected to fire up debate Tuesday as Halifax regional council tries to work out a budget.

Some councillors favour more buses rather than a high-speed vessel in Halifax harbour, for which council allocated $13 million in federal funding at a closed-door meeting.

Harry McInroy is one of the councillors concerned about borrowing money to cover the estimated $155 million for a proposed five-year transit plan, which would include a new ferry, more buses and a new bus garage.

"Twenty years after amalgamation — 10 years from now — we could still be in debt at the same point that we were at amalgamation," he said Monday.

McInroy, who has represented the Cole Harbour area for nearly three decades, calls this one of the worst budget proposals he has seen since the merger of the cities of Halifax and Dartmouth, the town of Bedford and the County of Halifax.

If approved, the $677-million budget for 2008-09 means a 4.3 per cent increase for services such as police, fire and animal shelters and a 15 per cent hike to fix roads, sidewalks and buy new buses.

The tax rate for homeowners in the region would increase by 2.6 per cent. For the average home assessment of $168,000, this works out to about a $78 increase.

Operating costs across all departments should be cut, McInroy said.

He also said council needs to make some tough choices on capital projects, which he said means priorizing a new bus garage and more buses instead of the fast ferry between Bedford and downtown Halifax.

Debate on the proposed budget begins Tuesday, with a vote planned for April 29.

Coun. Andrew Younger is so unhappy with the proposed transit plan that he has come up with his own.

Like McInroy, he suggests the municipality hold off on the fast ferry and use that money to add more rapid transit bus routes and improve service that already exists.

[someone123]

Fast ferry aside, the tone of the debate really illustrates why council should not be making these decisions. Most of the councillors simply ask themselves "is this good for my district?" because they are supposed to represent their constituents and will be accountable to them in a few months. In reality transit investment should be made based on what gives the biggest value for dollar within the municipality in terms of both direct services provided and spinoff effects.

[Wishblade]

Council keeps Halifax fast ferry afloat
Last Updated: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 | 5:41 PM AT


Regional councillors have agreed to keep a proposed high-speed ferry for Halifax harbour in the transit plan, though they made it clear their priority is a new bus garage.

The Halifax Regional Municipality five-year transit plan came up for discussion Tuesday.

Municipal transit officials said a second garage for Metro Transit buses is needed. With only one facility, which is in Dartmouth, there can be no further expansion of bus routes or new buses added to existing routes, transit officials said. They'd like the second built on the Halifax side of the harbour.

The estimated cost of a second garage is $25 million, slightly less than the $27 million projected for a fast ferry service connecting Bedford and downtown Halifax.

That had some councillors arguing that the ferry had to be pushed aside.

In the end, councillors made the garage the first priority and moved it into this year's capital budget, while the fast ferry remains part of the five-year transit plan.

It's not clear yet how the municipality will pay for either project. Council had already decided to spend $13 million in federal funds earmarked for transit on the fast ferry, but that cash must be used within two years, so it could go toward a bus garage. The municipality could also use gas taxes or borrow money to pay for the projects.

The ferry has been hotly debated over the years. Council has voted several times to support the project in principal, but funding has never been secured.

Councillors will continue to debate the financing of capital projects throughout the week.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Councillors lack the education to make these decisions...

Could somebody from SSP please run in the election?

[Bedford_DJ]

Well the ferry money was supposed to be debated at council tonight but they decided to do nothing at tonights council. The whole meeting was only 1/2 hour. Good thing though, with many councillors against the ferry because of jealousy it might not pass. Instead they should wait until we elect a new district coucillor in early may.

P.S. if anyone from SSP did run for mayor i would vote for them. :notacrook:

[Keith P.]

Why is HRM building a second transit garage? Why not call for proposals to service the fleet? I understand the Burnside garage is run in a very rigid manner so that a HRM truck, for example, cannot be worked on there, due to union rules. That is utterly ridiculous.

[someone123]

The transit garage is new to me and never really came up during earlier fast ferry discussions, or at least was not mentioned by the media (I don't think I saw those council debates).

This sounds like more classic HRM council to me. No forethought or clear priorities ahead of time and as much equivocation and delay as possible.

[Wishblade]

The transit garage is new to me and never really came up during earlier fast ferry discussions, or at least was not mentioned by the media (I don't think I saw those council debates).

This sounds like more classic HRM council to me. No forethought or clear priorities ahead of time and as much equivocation and delay as possible.

I've heard the garage brought up a few times, so its not the first time they've brought it up.

[skyscraper_1]

The bus garage has been mentioned before...but shouldn't the focus be...MOVING MORE PEOPLE WITH PUBLIC TRANSIT!

Typical HRM politiking.

[reddog794]

I don't think waiting for the fast ferry is too bad a plan so long as they time it in conjunction with the Bedford waterfront development. In the mean time though, they should be focusing on a Metrolink route going from the Bedford waterfront to DT anyways, while improving the ferries links already in place, try and cut the times down to 15 mins, instead of 20, or even a new ferry put into the rotation. I had a rough sketch I did on a map once with a 7 ferry system that had two ferries going counter rotational, including stops in Rockingham, Bedford, Wrights cove, Eastern Passage, and Purcells, while 5 went in a star pattern connecting each point with DT like bicycle spokes.
The ferries going around the outside of the harbour would be the fast ferries, while the spokes would be ferries in place today.

The new shed would open up the door for more routes and more buses on routes. It's a capacity problem that has been creeping up on metrotransit since the mid 80's when the city started it's transit cuts. This garage should have been built in the early 90's when the city planners knew Clayton park was going to go the way it did, as well as East Dartmouth, heading toward Portland Estates.

The new gas tax credit though is being touted though, as being able to help with getting both projects underway though... so the city says, and I have a hard time following anything Mayor Kelly states.

[someone123]

My fear is simply that things will get pushed off too long and then forgotten. It looks like HRM council and staff have created a list of priorities for the next five years. I'd hate for the ferry to be pushed back to 2013.

One disappointment that has been mentioned earlier is that no Clayton Park MetroLink services are expected until after five years. This is unfortunate given the level of density and growth of the area. The fact is that Clayton Park probably should have been built with special transit infrastructure from the beginning, with a bus lane on Dunbrack and Lacewood or maybe some small, separate busway near where the linear trail is just with one lane in each direction.

Like I've mentioned before, I also think that electrifying some routes would be an interesting plan. I take electric buses here and they're much quieter and cleaner than diesel buses, they're more powerful and do better on hills, and they cost less to run. There are also electrics with battery power that don't continually need to be hooked on to overhead wires. Not sure how much they cost relative to the standard low floors and how much overhead wiring costs.

At one point, Halifax had the biggest fleet of electrified buses in North America. See: http://www.trolleybuses.net/hfx/htm/can_h_hfx_brill_216_ss.htm for photos.

[Spitfire75]

I think I see their reasoning though. Building a new station will make adding future routes/buses much easier.
Those pictures are interesting, I like seeing how the city looked way back when (before my time).

[Bedford_DJ]

I noticed a correction on the HRM website; http://halifax.ca/mediaroom/pressrelease/pr2008/080416Clarification-ArticleinTheChronicleHerald.html.
It turns out all the original ideas are still on the plan that was approved last night the only difference is that the garage is #1 priority. The ferry money was approved now all we need is provincial money and a road going to the site along with the construction itself.

[hfx_chris]

Personally I'm glad they made this decision. I've never been a fan of ferries, although I do see the logic, especially since light rail seems so far in the future.

But right now, there are more urgent things Metro Transit needs to fix before they jump head-first into new projects.

MetroLink needs to be expanded into new territories, namely Clayton Park/Timberlea and Spryfield.
Additional non-Link buses need to be put on the road to ease overcrowding and possibly increase frequencies.
Metro Transit has talked about adding new articulated buses ("accordian" as some call them), which should be a major priority. We all know seating on low floor buses isn't the same as high floor buses, so some new artics would help out on heavily used routes.

And of course the new transit garage, which I'm glad they are making priority. The need for a new garage has little to do with repairing the buses, but has everything to do with storing them. Right now Metro Transit's two garages are full to capacity, and before any additional buses can be added to the fleet a third one needs to be built. They're planning it for the Lacewood area, which is a good idea as it would be very handy to the 102, so they could get buses to both Halifax and Bedford quickly.

[Bedford_DJ]

Since there's no map heres a map of the potential fast ferry routes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/59/Metrotransitferry.png
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Metrotransitferry.png.

[someone123]

Herald article out today:

Halifax ferry tale is for real
City puts out tenders for building two fast commuter boats
By AMY PUGSLEY FRASER City Hall Reporter
Thu. Jul 17 - 12:07 PM

Halifax city hall is going full speed ahead with its Bedford fast ferries.

On Wednesday, the city issued a tender for expressions of interest from qualified "Canadian and non-Canadian" firms to design, build and deliver at least two fast ferries.

The wheelchair-accessible vessels would carry as many as 250 passengers on a 12-kilometre run from Mill Cove to downtown Halifax and back. They would also have a bike rack for up to a dozen bicycles.

Bedford councillor Tim Outhit said he’s excited about the project because it would get cars off the road and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

"It’s great," he said Wednesday. "But my only concern is that we have good connections to and from the terminal because I don’t want the Bedford Basin waterfront turned into a parking lot or the Bedford Highway turned into gridlock like after the fireworks."

Two years ago, the city commissioned a study on the fast-ferry proposal and received a few recommendations about pursuing the project. Among them were that the ferries should travel at a speed of 65 kilometres per hour to make the trip in about 15 minutes and that they should have a capacity of 350 passengers to make sure the service would be cost-effective.

But Wednesday’s tender calls for vessels that would hold 250 passengers and travel at about 50 km/h.

Those differences were enough for Coun. Sheila Fougere (Connaught-Quinpool) to throttle back on her support for the plan.

Ms. Fougere, who is running against Mayor Peter Kelly for the top job in the October municipal election, said Wednesday there isn’t a good business case for a 250-passenger ferry.

"The facts are altered from the original cultivation study that we were given," she said.

If the city pushes for a 250-seat ferry, then the routes would be subsidized, "as all Metro Transit routes are anyway," she said.

But the original study had information on the break-even point in terms of numbers of passengers, fare costs and trip times, she said.

"And those facts were the basis for supporting a business case for the fast ferry, and now those facts are not the same."

The city’s transportation manager said Wednesday that starting with smaller boats would be cheaper and more prudent.

"We weren’t comfortable taking the risk of building the large ferries," David McCusker said in an interview from city hall.

"We’d rather start at a moderate size. And if the demand is there to fill a lot of seats, we can add more ferries."

The city’s intent is to have the service operational late in 2010, Mr. McCusker said.

"But to do that, we need to start moving on procuring the ferries and establishing the sites."

To facilitate that, a "good portion" of the project’s expected $27-million price tag, about $14 million, was included in the 2008-09 fiscal year, Mr. McCusker said. Thinking about the ferry service while the price of oil keeps climbing is not a concern, he said.

"As fuel costs go up, our operating cost goes up, but so does our demand.

"We compete with automobile trips, and they go up much higher than our transit trips do. So when fuel goes up, we become more competitive."

Mr. Kelly is a booster of the fast-ferry project but stopped short of saying that issuing the tender is a big step forward.

"It’s only to see who out there might be interested in responding to an official call," he said.

The mayor also deflected a question about whether the fast ferries would primarily benefit residents of his hometown of Bedford by saying they would help many commuters all over Halifax Regional Municipality.

"People perceive it to be a Bedford fast ferry, but it’s not," he said.

"In time, it will evolve to many communities, not just one."

He mentioned Dartmouth, Shannon Park, Woodside, Eastern Passage, Rockingham and Purcells Cove as other potential destinations.

( apugsley@herald.ca)

[Bedford_DJ]

From the Herald this morning:

Halifax ferry tale is for real
City puts out tenders for building two fast commuter boats
By AMY PUGSLEY FRASER City Hall Reporter
Thu. Jul 17 - 12:07 PM

Halifax city hall is going full speed ahead with its Bedford fast ferries.

On Wednesday, the city issued a tender for expressions of interest from qualified "Canadian and non-Canadian" firms to design, build and deliver at least two fast ferries.

The wheelchair-accessible vessels would carry as many as 250 passengers on a 12-kilometre run from Mill Cove to downtown Halifax and back. They would also have a bike rack for up to a dozen bicycles.

Bedford councillor Tim Outhit said he’s excited about the project because it would get cars off the road and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

"It’s great," he said Wednesday. "But my only concern is that we have good connections to and from the terminal because I don’t want the Bedford Basin waterfront turned into a parking lot or the Bedford Highway turned into gridlock like after the fireworks."

Two years ago, the city commissioned a study on the fast-ferry proposal and received a few recommendations about pursuing the project. Among them were that the ferries should travel at a speed of 65 kilometres per hour to make the trip in about 15 minutes and that they should have a capacity of 350 passengers to make sure the service would be cost-effective.

But Wednesday’s tender calls for vessels that would hold 250 passengers and travel at about 50 km/h.

Those differences were enough for Coun. Sheila Fougere (Connaught-Quinpool) to throttle back on her support for the plan.

Ms. Fougere, who is running against Mayor Peter Kelly for the top job in the October municipal election, said Wednesday there isn’t a good business case for a 250-passenger ferry.

"The facts are altered from the original cultivation study that we were given," she said.

If the city pushes for a 250-seat ferry, then the routes would be subsidized, "as all Metro Transit routes are anyway," she said.

But the original study had information on the break-even point in terms of numbers of passengers, fare costs and trip times, she said.

"And those facts were the basis for supporting a business case for the fast ferry, and now those facts are not the same."

The city’s transportation manager said Wednesday that starting with smaller boats would be cheaper and more prudent.

"We weren’t comfortable taking the risk of building the large ferries," David McCusker said in an interview from city hall.

"We’d rather start at a moderate size. And if the demand is there to fill a lot of seats, we can add more ferries."

The city’s intent is to have the service operational late in 2010, Mr. McCusker said.

"But to do that, we need to start moving on procuring the ferries and establishing the sites."

To facilitate that, a "good portion" of the project’s expected $27-million price tag, about $14 million, was included in the 2008-09 fiscal year, Mr. McCusker said. Thinking about the ferry service while the price of oil keeps climbing is not a concern, he said.

"As fuel costs go up, our operating cost goes up, but so does our demand.

"We compete with automobile trips, and they go up much higher than our transit trips do. So when fuel goes up, we become more competitive."

Mr. Kelly is a booster of the fast-ferry project but stopped short of saying that issuing the tender is a big step forward.

"It’s only to see who out there might be interested in responding to an official call," he said.

The mayor also deflected a question about whether the fast ferries would primarily benefit residents of his hometown of Bedford by saying they would help many commuters all over Halifax Regional Municipality.

"People perceive it to be a Bedford fast ferry, but it’s not," he said.

"In time, it will evolve to many communities, not just one."

He mentioned Dartmouth, Shannon Park, Woodside, Eastern Passage, Rockingham and Purcells Cove as other potential destinations

This is GREAT news. Hopefully in two years time i won't have to sit on the bus for 45 minutes to get downtown. Along with the terminal they should also create a pedway over the tracks at the South Jetty (where the terminal will be), make a bus connector so routes 80, 82, and 86 can serve the terminal directly, fix up the path connecting Shore Dr to the Waterfront and create a pathway from Hammonds Plains to the pedway. But thats just my imagination running wild.

CAN'T WAIT FOR 2010!! :D

[someone123]

Lots of complaining about this project but I think it's reasonable given the fact that commuter rail is not happening and the 102/Bedford Hwy/Magazine Hill are all increasingly becoming congested.

We need to start trying out more innovative solutions to transportation problems. If these ferries work well then they could play a fairly large role in the transit system as a whole.

[spaustin]

The comments on the herald board in reaction to this story make me want to cry. I can't stand the "I won't use it so I shouldn't have to pay for it" attitude. We all live in one city and that means contributing to things that may not benefit you at all or may only provide indirect benefits. If we apply that logic nothing will ever be built ever. I suspect that many of the people complaining would be singing a different tune if the proposed expenditure was going into their neighbourhood. Then it would suddenely be a necessary project that needs to be done :rolleyes:

The number of people screaming for commuter rail and who see the ferry as a threat is also nutty. Commuter rail is a half-baked pipe dream. CN owns the tracks and the right of way and they're not going to allow commuter trains onto them. It's, unfortunatley, just not on without a massive investment to acquire part of the right of way and twin the tracks. The commuter rail proponents just see underused tracks and haven't actually looked at what's feasible. Ferries and buses are the best we can do so let's put our money there.

[sdm]

Lots of complaining about this project but I think it's reasonable given the fact that commuter rail is not happening and the 102/Bedford Hwy/Magazine Hill are all increasingly becoming congested.

We need to start trying out more innovative solutions to transportation problems. If these ferries work well then they could play a fairly large role in the transit system as a whole.

Agree, however i don;t see two fast ferrys solving the issue by any means. Mind you the figures above represent just the ferrys, not the landing areas, which the price tag will knock everyones socks off.

Ask me, spend the money on more public transport in the form of hybrid buses, with more stops first. At least they could finish that project first before jumping into the ferry idea.

[Keith P.]

The number of people screaming for commuter rail and who see the ferry as a threat is also nutty. Commuter rail is a half-baked pipe dream. CN owns the tracks and the right of way and they're not going to allow commuter trains onto them. It's, unfortunatley, just not on without a massive investment to acquire part of the right of way and twin the tracks. The commuter rail proponents just see underused tracks and haven't actually looked at what's feasible. Ferries and buses are the best we can do so let's put our money there.

Ferries are not a good choice IMO. They are subject to bad weather and are seldom able to have people embark/disembark close to their source/destination, so they require addiitonal links to get folks to/from the docks. Good luck maintaining 50 kph in this harbour, too.

Your dissing of rail as an option is shortsighted. Rights of way can be obtained if there is the will to do so. If $60 million for a pair of oversized speedboats isn't a massive investment I don't know what is. In the end, rail would serve far more people far better than any number of these things. This is Peter Kelly pushing forward soemthing for his area that does little to solve the bigger problem. I cannot support it.

[Bedford_DJ]

This is one of the few areas where i completely support Kelly. He said this supports more than just Bedford and i completely agree. If this becomes a popular travel choice then people will support other ferry projects. I see in 25 years from now ferries servicing Eastern Passage, Purcell's Cove, Shannon Park, Kearney Lake/Chinatown (when redevloped), Dartmouth, Halifax and Bedford. The ferries would connect to downtown but a Bedford-Shannon Park would make sense and the same with Chinatown-Shannon Park. It would be popular with tourists and more scenic then cars. With gas rising it would become much more attrqactive in the future and it reduces stress and road-rage in HRM. Besides the Dartmouth/Woodside ferries are popular and they take 12 minutes to cross.

We have a beautiful, large harbour so why not use it? :shrug:

[someone123]

The stated overall cost for the revised project is $27M, including both ferries and landing areas.

To those who have a problem with this project, I ask: what is the alternative? The fact is that currently there is none for rapid transit service to the Bedford-Sackville-Hammonds Plains-Fall River area.

Commuter rail service has not happened along the CN tracks despite being pushed for over a decade. It's just not on the table at this point. Creating a new rail line and running it out to Bedford would be much, much more expensive than the ferries. Most LRT projects cost in the hundreds of millions of dollars. $27M would probably be below average for one kilometre of LRT in a dedicated right of way.

As for complaints about how this is just for Bedford, it's actually helpful to anybody at that end of town and Dartmouth and Clayton Park both either have BRT already or will be getting it as part of the 5 year transit plan.

I don't think the weather argument holds if the ferries are compared to buses (it would compared to rail, but like I said that would be a much more expensive option). Any snow, freezing rain, etc. severely impacts buses while having little impact on ferries. High winds might cause the ferries to be closed but the bridges have been closed due to winds as well. I'm not sure what the wind cutoff would be, but I doubt that the impact on service would be any worse than on conventional buses.

[reddog794]

SO, we're getting a sub-par product, slower, smaller boats, than what was promised. I like the fast ferry plan, but come on. They told us it would take 15 minutes, for 350 people to get down town from the furthest part of the basin. Damn you Kelly and you're timid, fawn politicking!!

Rail just is not going to happen. We would have had it already, if it was to hit. They took out rail, after the hurricane, instead of repairing it, as an example of where we fit in CNs scheme of things. Maybe if somebody rich lays a second line going out to Sackville, and starts they're own glr route.

That's not being short sighted, that's me thinking realistically. We have a much better route system than, what would become a congested rail line as there is only one going in and out. (ha) They said a fast ferry, I want a fast ferry, not slow, which is what we are going to get. Unless we put our boot to Kelly's throat, and make him follow through, on his original promises. A reality. Our bus routes are maxed out worse than my Aunts credit cards. Also a reality. Rail is brilliant, but we are not there yet... ramble ramble... ya, keep the promise for the fast ferry, and not the almost-fast ferry.

[phrenic]

If it is a quick, efficient service provided at a reasonable price, and the city thinks they can at least break even on it, them I'm all for it. I don't see this as pandering to Bedford by Kelly.

Rail is of course more desirable, but it's little more than a pipe dream at the moment. We may not see it for a generation.

[Bedford_DJ]

Fast ferry: How fast can it go?

By AMY PUGSLEY FRASER City Hall Reporter
Fri. Jul 18 - 5:52 AM

Bedford’s proposed fast ferry might get off to a slow start — at least when it takes off from the dock at Mill Cove.

That’s because certain areas of Bedford Basin are governed by a speed limit of 11 kilometres per hour (six knots), says a communications specialist with the Halifax Port Authority.

But the ferry could pick up the pace past that point and cruise quickly into Halifax Harbour as long as the speed was safe, Natalie Kenrick said Thursday.

Halifax Harbour has no set speed limit, she said, but vessels must proceed at a safe speed, one at which their wash and wake would not affect safety or cause property damage.

Areas with an 11 km/h speed limit include all of the Northwest Arm and portions of Bedford Basin within 100 metres of any fixed or floating dock, beach, mooring area or small boat.

A story in Thursday’s Chronicle Herald about the city issuing a call for expressions of interest in designing and building two fast ferries resulted in a lot of feedback. And a few readers said the fast ferry would never fly because of speed regulations in the harbour.

"I think this is hilarious," one reader wrote. "In order for this magic ferry to do 50 km/h, (the mayor) has to first convince the international transportation commission, a governing body of maritime law, to raise its speed limit."

Not so, says the city’s manager of transportation.

"The rule on the harbour is that everybody has to operate in a safe manner," Dave McCusker said Thursday.

"You would think after three years of working on the project that we would have asked that question."

He said the city has had "numerous discussions" over the years on several issues involving the fast-ferry project.

"We’ve met extensively with harbour authorities on the project to discuss channels that we’d use to do the routing, and issues with wake generation and proximity to recreational uses and passing container ships."

The city’s tender, which closes on Aug. 20, refers to ferries that can reach 50 km/h with a "low wake wash" and "good manoeuvrability and crash stop capability."As well, the ideal vessel would have engine emissions characteristics that meet or exceed U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requirements and efficient engine operation "leading to as low fuel consumption as possible for the speed achieved."

Fast ferries such as the Whaling City Express, which was brought in from Massachusetts for a test run in Halifax Harbour in October 2005, are obviously well-suited to their task, Mr. McCusker said.

"They’re very manoeuvrable, they stop very quickly, they have all kinds of instrumentation for operating in fog and weather conditions, and they operate very safely in other harbours.

"The authorities that we’ve dealt with . . . are very confident in how well the ferries can do."

The city is interested in fast ferries for a reason, Mr. McCusker said.

"It needs to be fast to be competitive with car trips," he said.

"Even our MetroLink (commuter bus service) at its very best can match what you can do in a car, but to really get the kind of volumes that big cities get on subways, you need to do a trip that’s faster than a car, and for us the only opportunity to do that is with ferries.

"That’s where we want to be."
If what this article says is correct than the ferry could still go fast. Most of the pleasure craft in Bedford stays in the bay away from the route. Maybe its possible for HRM to buy a "lane" in the Narrows where pleasure craft can't go?

[sdm]

If what this article says is correct than the ferry could still go fast. Most of the pleasure craft in Bedford stays in the bay away from the route. Maybe its possible for HRM to buy a "lane" in the Narrows where pleasure craft can't go?

I still believe this is a bad idea, and sure the port authority and department of transport will soon be stating why. The narrows are just too narrow to have a vessal this size traveling that speed in the fog with the traffic that goes through there. Mind you that doesn;t seem to be a huge issue these days as the port authority is losing volume rapidly.

[Bedford_DJ]

I still believe this is a bad idea, and sure the port authority and department of transport will soon be stating why. The narrows are just too narrow to have a vessal this size traveling that speed in the fog with the traffic that goes through there. Mind you that doesn;t seem to be a huge issue these days as the port authority is losing volume rapidly.
Despite the name the Narrows actually aren't narrow. At the narrowest (near the MacKay) its still 1 km+ wide which is pleny wide as long as ther are regulations in place. Besides most (if not all) boats have radar now which should reduce the risk of collision even in fog.

[Jonovision]

These types of ferry's run in many other busy harbours with tighter places then this. I was recently in Bermuda and there are ferry's just like this one running between all the little islands along with the many pleasure craft, cruise ships, and container ships. It's not really an issue.

[Takeo]

These types of ferry's run in many other busy harbours with tighter places then this. I was recently in Bermuda and there are ferry's just like this one running between all the little islands along with the many pleasure craft, cruise ships, and container ships. It's not really an issue.

Don't say that... then we'll have nothing to complain about! LOL. (we being HRM... not just our little forum group).

[hfx_chris]

Despite the name the Narrows actually aren't narrow. At the narrowest (near the MacKay) its still 1 km+ wide which is pleny wide as long as ther are regulations in place. Besides most (if not all) boats have radar now which should reduce the risk of collision even in fog.
Is that taking into account the jetties which jut out into the narrows, or the support towers for the bridge?

The number of people screaming for commuter rail and who see the ferry as a threat is also nutty. Commuter rail is a half-baked pipe dream. CN owns the tracks and the right of way and they're not going to allow commuter trains onto them. It's, unfortunatley, just not on without a massive investment to acquire part of the right of way and twin the tracks. The commuter rail proponents just see underused tracks and haven't actually looked at what's feasible. Ferries and buses are the best we can do so let's put our money there.Light rail is definitely NOT a half-baked pipe dream, simply based on the number of cities (primarily European) who employ such a system. It can and does work. Everything Keith said in reply to your comment makes sense, this would service a far greater number of people than ferries would. Light rail can work, but unfortunately our politicians don't seem particularly motivated, they're stuck on this dimwitted "fast" ferry idea.

And of course, now we're learning they're going to purchase smaller ferries!? Has HRM learned nothing from the past?

[someone123]

Well, as usual, this debate has been framed in binary "rail vs ferry" terms. Totally ridiculous.

Rail in general may work for the city but the commuter rail line to Bedford has been stalled for ten years or more. It's not going to happen, and even if it did it would have been a flawed (but affordable, though no more so than the ferry) system that likely would not have provided service levels beyond what the ferries are capable of (the rail line has similar speed/regulatory problems, for example).

The fast ferry project is small. HRM can still pursue rail for parts of the municipality that can actually support it, namely parts of the old City of Halifax that are more densely built up than anywhere else.

[spaustin]

Let me clarify (calling rail a pipe dream was perhaps a tad strong). Rail can work and does work in many cities, but it can't work here right now because of where we are as a city. CN owns the tracks. They're a hard-nosed take no prisoners corporation. Why do you think the southend truckway has been a no go for so long? The city and port want it but CN opposes it and won't share the tracks. To get them to cooperate would take enormous political and public pressure. To build a rail system, I suspect, would involve buying right of ways, laying brand new track and constructing stations which would become quite expensive (100s of millions). It's a good idea in the long-term, especially if the age of the automobile starts to pass due to high fuel prices. For now though, it's not something that is reasonable. Too many of rails proponent see the very underutilized tracks and, logically, conclude there is a great opportunity, but they fail to account for the political and economic realities. Those tracks just aren't as usable as they look!

Let's build a networks of ferries, they're relatively cheap, can be done now, and can actually provide a quicker than the car transit alternative. Heck, this ferry to Bedford will probably pay for itself through increased assessments and new development on and near the Bedford waterfront. Rail is a great idea, but it's just not feasible right now so let's go with what is.

[Takeo]

Just one question... I assume (altho' I could be dead wrong) that the Go Trains in the GTA all run on CN rail lines... no? Does anyone know the history there and how that was accomplished? Perhaps they were able to offer CN a lot more given the huge ridership there?

[sdm]

Where are they parking the cars for the purcell's cove ferry?

[hfx_chris]

Just one question... I assume (altho' I could be dead wrong) that the Go Trains in the GTA all run on CN rail lines... no?
For the most part yes, they share the CN tracks.

I'm not sure where this figure of hundreds of millions of dollars for stations comes from... have you ever seen the GO transit stations? They're pretty much nothing more than a concrete pad with a few shelters and benches, some lights. There's a few more elaborate ones with actual small buildings, and some have short tunnels under the tracks to get from one platform to another, but Halifax doesn't need anything that elaborate.

[spaustin]

The GO Train network was established in the 1960s-1970s back when CN was a crown corporation and subject to political pressure and government decisionmaking. Now that CN is privatized, we don't have much leverage.

Chris: I'm talking 100s of millions to acquire right of ways, build tracks and build stations. The complete pack would be a bundle let alone the cost of buying trains.

[terrynorthend]

I'm talking 100s of millions to acquire right of ways, build tracks and build stations. The complete pack would be a bundle let alone the cost of buying trains.

Ah, our old friend, right-of-ways. If we thought there was a stink over expropriation from a few homes on Chebucto, watch out!

I think rail would/will work in Halifax as outlying communities grow. It would work best if a chain of population centres leading north or west or east of the city could be linked to the core via commuter rail lines that meet at a central station and transfer to the bus system.

Its much less sensible as a downtown or even peninsular loop as the peninsula is so small, largely pedestrian and tightly built as it is. The infrastructure and cost would be prohibitive.

[hfx_chris]

Chris: I'm talking 100s of millions to acquire right of ways, build tracks and build stations. The complete pack would be a bundle let alone the cost of buying trains.
Ah, that makes more sense. I was kind of wondering what kind of stations you were proposing :D

[hfx_chris]

I think rail would/will work in Halifax as outlying communities grow. It would work best if a chain of population centres leading north or west or east of the city could be linked to the core via commuter rail lines that meet at a central station and transfer to the bus system.
Funny how life works. CN/VIA used to offer passenger rail service all over the province, then the highways were built and passengers abandoned rail in favor of their cars - so VIA removes passenger service, CN rips up the rails, and now that gas is almost $1.50/L here we are thinking how nice it would be to have a rail system that linked different parts of the province :(

[someone123]

Actually I think rail and upgraded rapid transit make the most sense on the peninsula. Imagine, for example, light rail that links up the various employment centres on the peninsula (downtown, university, hospitals) with the ferries and Mumford Terminal. The central system could be high frequency, making transfers very straightforward. It would also make it practical to increase density near new transit corridors on the peninsula.

Right now I think the biggest problem with the transit system is that there's a weird mix of suburban routes serving different parts of the core. Cities like Toronto avoid this with major transit corridors in the form of subways. In Halifax a comparable system would be surface light rail in a couple of reclaimed mixed traffic lanes or medians (possibly with a handful of small tunnels to deal with key bottleneck intersections).

[Spitfire75]

I've always thought Dunbrack would be perfect to have rail going right up the middle of it, but where/how it would connect other than that I'm not sure.

[hfx_chris]

Indeed.. not sure how you would get it into downtown though, it would have to cross the Herring Cove Road at some point, and that's so built up with houses and subdivisions I'm not sure how that would ever work. But you're right, Dunbrack would be perfect, since it's already a boulevard.

[Bedford_DJ]

To get back on topic here are some pictures of the future site for the Bedford Ferry Terminal (all photos taken by me):

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2213/2723181282_51d821b578_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3116/2723174952_c684ba26aa_b.jpg

Infilling is ongoing for Bedford Waterfront Phase II which includes the Fast Ferry Terminal due to open in 2010.

[Spitfire75]

What else does Phase II include? Know anywhere I could find more info on it?

[Bedford_DJ]

Some information:

Website: VisionHRM Bedford Waterfront (http://www.halifax.ca/VisionHRM/BedfordWaterfront/)

PDF's: Approved Vision (http://www.halifax.ca/VisionHRM/documents/BedfordFinalVision.pdf)
Approved Action Plan (http://www.halifax.ca/VisionHRM/BedfordWaterfront/documents/BWActionStrategyApprovedOct30.07.pdf)

[Bedford_DJ]

$7.50 fast ferry fare won’t fly
Councillor: Price has to be in $4 to $5 range
By AMY PUGSLEY FRASER City Hall Reporter
Wed. Aug 27 - 5:18 AM

Raising the fares for Bedford’s fast ferries could sink the service before the vessels hit the waves, says the area’s councillor.

"It’s going to have to be in the $4 to $5 range or it’s not going to float," Coun. Tim Outhit (Bedford) said Tuesday of the service to downtown Halifax.

The municipality is looking to test the waters on what people are willing to pay when a market study is done early next month.

The fares quoted in the city document are a range between $4 and $7.50, but the higher amount will make it prohibitive, said Mr. Outhit.

"Obviously, this is what we have to determine (through the survey), but I suspect that people ar