[SteelTown]

Don't know the extact figure but it's pretty cheap rent though.

[SteelTown]

Green roof considered for new city hall

By Kevin Werner
News
Jul 11, 2008

If sustainable development is all the rage, then what about adding a "green roof" to Hamilton's new city hall?

It's a question city staff will consider, but they caution it will send the city hall building budget soaring past its $68.5 million target.

City staff agreed last week to study if a green roof can be constructed for city hall for an affordable price.

"If it is an option you want, you better do it now," said Public Works General Manager Scott Stewart. "We have to cost it out now."

Gerry Davis, director of capital planning and implementation, said the cost of such a project could be "too expensive."

West Mountain councillor Terry Whitehead suggested the green roof idea during last week's city hall renovation sub-committee meeting. He pointed out Chicago's city hall has a "green roof" that provides a substantial environmental symbol to the community.

"City hall is symbolic of being a leader to the private sector," he said. "It would be a shame if we don't follow these type of issues."

Meanwhile, the consultants have determined they won't replace the marble cladding on the city hall's exterior. Kieran Howe of ABE, said an analysis of the 40-year-old marble and cladding revealed it is deteriorating. The consultants are looking at replacing the marble with either limestone, pre-cast panels or dimensional marble. Each option has lifespan of about 40 years.

The final choice will be made by mid-July, said Mr. Howe.

The intent is to submit a heritage permit application to the city this summer, he said.

The consultants will also provide the first draft of what the ground floor of city hall will look like. The main floor will include interactive kiosks for public use, the small business centre relocated from Jackson Square, and a business facilitation centre.

By the end of July, the ABE will provide a preliminary cost of the project, and a construction schedule.

The consultants are confident the project will be completed by December 2010. Construction is expected to begin this fall.

[raisethehammer]

no cafe space on the main floor?? geez.

[SteelTown]

The city isn't going to pay to have a cafe, a cafe shop can open the shop themselves. The city is working on the budget of what they have to pay.

[raisethehammer]

I realize that, but I thought they might set aside space for one during reno's.
Where is a cafe supposed to open if there's no room for it?

[markbarbera]

sweet Jesus, please no pre-cast panelling! May as well tear the bloody thing down if you do that!

[SteelTown]

Use they use limestone it better be from the Escarpment in Hamilton. But the problem with limestone is that it basically looks like cement from a distance.

[highwater]

Limestone was bandied about originally, but they decided on marble 'cause it was 'grander'. It would be poetic justice if they go with limestone now. Glad there's no more talk about metal cladding. Sweet Jesus indeed.

[tri-xy68]

yeah - Green Roof! This is the time to throw in huge design changes!? Are they crazy? Didn't they say the design development drawings were already almost completed by Norr? I think they paid them $1.3M, right? And they are expecting GJH to use those drawings right? ha! Oh yeah and they are still on schedule right?? occupancy by 2010?? Double ha! Somebody better get their heads out of there ***** pretty soon before this ends up costing the tax payers a couple hundred million.

Cheers!

[FairHamilton]

Green roof, like Chicago. I see someone was watching PBS the other week........

While, I'm all for a green roof (MEC in Toronto has had one for years, and the Royal York has an herb garden and apiary for the kitchen), if one is done it needs to be open to the public. Having one just for the sake of having one on a government building seems like a bit of a waste. I don't think it would influence one of the currently property holders in Hamilton to replicate.

[highwater]

It wouldn't be a waste. From roofgarden.ca:


"Green roofs have many benefits, both to the building owner and to the surrounding urban environment. These include the following benefits:

*
Green Roofs Last Longer: They can last three times longer than conventional roofs. The parts of green roofs are protected from temperature extremes by cool soils and plants. Conventional roofs suffer great temperature fluctuations which is hard on components. The longer life of green roofs, reduces the waste of conventional roofs much of which goes to landfills.
*
Green Roofs Reduce Building Energy Costs: A green roof helps keep the roof cool, resulting in great energy savings through reduced air conditioning.
*
Green Roofs Reduce the Urban Heat Island Effect: Cities are much hotter than surrounding country side because dark coloured roads, parking lots and roofs tops absorb more solar energy than crops, forests, and lakes. Conventional roof tops heat the city up by up to 4 degrees, and increase health problems associated with heat such as smog. If green roofs were common, the summer temperature of Toronto would be several degrees cooler.
*
Green Roofs Reduce Storm Water Runoff: The plants and soil wick much of the rainfall away through evapo-transpiration on green roofs. In Toronto, green roofs have been shown to reduce the stormwater runoff by 50% during summer months, compared to buildings without green roofs.
*
Green Roofs Increase Human Well-being: The beauty of green roofs can increase health and recovery in hospitals, as well as workplace productivity in businesses. The effect of green space on psychological well being is well known. Many companies with split level roofs visible from office windows, are opting for green roofs.
*
Green Roofs Provide Habitat: for plants, butterflies, and birds on otherwise lifeless roof tops. Green roofs have the potential to provide large scale grassland like habitats to cities."


I agree though, that it would also be nice to have public access.

[raisethehammer]

no reason it can't have public access.
the cafeteria is on the top floor of city hall. I'm sure there's easy access to the roof.

[highwater]

I...agree...with...Terry...Whitehead. There. I said it.

[thistleclub]

The timing on city hall options has always been spasmodic. I'm sure we'll see more twists.

As far as Chicago goes, Metropolis featured a cover story (polisnyc.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/metropolis-final.pdf) on Chicago's green initiatives a few years back. Their city hall's green roof has site-specific values -- it's half a block of green space visible from neighbouring skyscrapers -- but it's is only part of the sustainability symbology at work in that city. The article mentions the city's LEED building spree, the planting of hundreds of thousands of trees and the remediation of 1,000 acres of brownfield sites, thousands of acres of former manufacturing land turned into wetland preserves and the midnight bulldozing of the Meigs Field runway in the name of creating a waterfront park.

Granted, Daley's been at it for almost 20 years. But even if they achieved a Morrow-like run, I can't imagine Mayor Eisenberger, Councillor Clark or any of his colleagues having the fortitude to make the environment their legacy project. And of course I would love to be proven wrong.

[raisethehammer]

so, is there any reason why we can't have one of these at city hall, or Gore Park or on the roof of Jackson Sq??

http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/sarahindenmark/denmark/1193772720/dsc03816.jpg/tpod.html

It was donated by a bank in Ireland.

[SteelTown]

Chipping away at City Hall reno bill
Concrete/aluminum facade to save $3.5m

August 12, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator

Hamilton has a concrete plan to get its city hall renovation back on budget -- lose the expensive stone exterior.

Councillors are looking to trim $8 million from the project to bring it back to the approved target of $50 million for construction.

Yesterday, a subcommittee axed plans to replace the heritage building's marble facade with limestone. Downgrading to pre-cast concrete panels will save $2.5 million.

The city will save another $1 million by using aluminum for window trimming instead of the existing stainless steel.

"We're not a wealthy municipality. We can't afford these luxuries," said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson, arguing residents won't be able to tell the difference.

"Visually, it's exactly the same."

Heritage and architecture advocates might beg to differ. Concrete doesn't offer the same veining as natural stone.

The city's heritage committee, which advises council on permits for renovations of heritage buildings, has already stated it wants the marble facade replaced.

The group was open to limestone, which the consultant recommended, but not concrete.

"It's not going to be acceptable to the heritage committee," said Gerry Davis, director of capital planning.

City council has the ultimate say on the heritage changes.

The team tackling the renovation plans to report back to the subcommittee before fall to identify more cuts to reduce the budget overrun.

[SteelTown]

Please god no, no concrete facade. Use limestone jeez, who cares if you'll go $2.5 million over budget.

Limestone facade may be a luxury but City Hall is a building that will represent the City of Hamilton and a concrete facade to save $2.5 million isn't a good representation.

[SteelTown]

City Hall downgrade
Push on to 'limit the budget' of renovation

August 12, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator

The renovation of City Hall is running overbudget but ahead of schedule.

The consortium behind the project told councillors yesterday the project could be completed by July 1, 2010 -- six months ahead of schedule.

The early move-in date would save the city $800,000 in rental costs at its temporary quarters in City Centre.

The savings are critical for the project that's threatening to run over budget. Early forecasts put construction at $58 million, some $8 million over the council approved plan.

"We need to find ways to limit the budget," Councillor Chad Collins said yesterday as the subcommittee trimmed exterior heritage features to save $3.5 million.

Before fall, councillors plan to find more ways to cut back the project.

The city is testing a new model called the "integrated team approach" for the renovation.

Instead of tendering the various parts of the job as usual, the city is working with a team of companies that will complete the renovation from start to finish.

Under the model, the city and team will agree on a final price in the fall. After the agreement is signed, any cost overruns or savings will be shared 50-50 by the city and team.

Council must still give final approval on the model. If it's rejected, the project will fall behind.

In the coming weeks, councillors will also have to decide how much money to spend on building perks and the forecourt.

An ice rink and fountain, worth upward of $5 million, are still on the table for the forecourt.

Tim McCabe, the city's general manager of planning and economic development, wants to see the open space below council chambers glassed in to create a foyer with a "wow" factor. Without that $3-million addition, he said he fears the upgraded City Hall will offer nothing new.

"You want something grand and exciting," he said, noting the renovation will have an impact on the city's image.

[raisethehammer]

for pete's sake.
Let's just slather the thing in stucco and slap some golden arches on top. That'll be eye-catching.

[flar]

Might as well demolish it.

[SteelTown]

You still have a chance to change this as it'll require council approval so email or call your councillor for anything other than concrete facade. Betcha Garwood-Jones got his fingers on this, all he does it concrete facade. Grrr

I wouldn't mind limestone as I think it's suited for Hamilton with the Niagara Escarpment. A good way to represent the City of Hamilton.

[adam]

concrete is definitely an outdated look. brutalism was supposed to go out a long time ago. maybe they could rent out the finished lister block from liuna? hahahaha

[ryan_mcgreal]

"We're not a wealthy municipality. We can't afford these luxuries," said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson, arguing residents won't be able to tell the difference.

The consummate Hamilton hater in top form.

[raisethehammer]

his residents won't be able to tell the difference. They live in friggin Ancaster. They'd probably hate concrete because it's not stucco.
The rest of us have some higher standards Lloyd.

[coalminecanary]

i wish they would just forget it all and stay in city centre.

[matt602]

All I read is "We're not a wealthy municipality - let's look like it too"

Bloody hell. Saying this kind of crap completely contrasts with all the "we're gonna be in the top 5 some day!" that people are saying at the economic summit. If you wanna re-invent yourself as a city, you have to put some pride in your civic buildings. Don't have the money? Find it.

[adam]

There's always money, they just don't see the value in it. Wish they did though.

[markbarbera]

If cost is an issue, then move $3.5 mil from the $5 million earlmarked for the front plaza so the cladding can be done proper. The remaining $1.5 mil can be used to design a forecourt initially without the rink/fountain, but designed so that element can be added down the road.

[SteelTown]

Adding $2.5 million to a $50 million price tag doesn't really make a big difference. An increase of 5%. Might as well go over budget and stick with limestone.

[Jon Dalton]

This is all ass-backwards. Renovations usually make a building better, not worse.

[highwater]

What a loser. And he works in the construction industry. The people I know in the construction industry have a little pride in their product and don't like to turn out half-assed buildings just to save a few bucks. Wouldn't recommending concrete be a conflict of interest for him? Why has no one called him on that?

The Visigoths aren't at the gate anymore, they're in the council chambers.

[JoeyColeman]

i wish they would just forget it all and stay in city centre.

I second that... City Hall, accessible to the citzenry, what a concept.

- Joey

[ryan_mcgreal]

And he works in the construction industry.

He's from Dufferin, a company that specializes in ugly, functional things made out of concrete and asphalt: roads, highways, parking lots, and residential subdivision grading. It's not surprising that he doesn't seem to care what City Hall looks like.

[raisethehammer]

What a loser.

I second that.

[SteelTown]

What are they going to do with the ceramic tiles?

[FairHamilton]

Perhaps they could take some money from the Gateway Sign project and put it into City Hall. I for one, would prefer the money being spent in the city vs. on the side of the highway.

Has anyone really ever ventured off a highway and into a city because of it's Gateway Sign? Do people flock off the highway in great numbers?

http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/cityandgovernment/citydepartments/planningecdev/development/urbandesign/currentprojects/civicgatewaydesignstudy.htm

[raisethehammer]

I always make fun of those stupid things when I drive by them. You drive into every stupid city out in some sprawling mess of big box stores and they think because they have some fancy sign saying "London" or "Burlington" that I'm going to jump off the highway and try out their McDonalds vs every other one in Ontario.
Not to mention, Hamilton's choices are pathetic. A complete waste of money.

[FairHamilton]

When I see Burlington's on the QEW, I can't help but think how it is. Never once have I said to myself; Hmmmm sails, I like sailing perhaps I should stop/shop/dine/sail in Burlington............

Not that I haven't done some of the above (never sailed there), but it wasn't because of a cheesy sign butted up against an overpass on the QEW.

That's it, I'm starting a new thread; Kill the Gateway Sign, and invest in City Hall!!

[Jon Dalton]

Let's go back to gravel roads instead of repaving. We are not a wealthy city.

[matt602]

Aye, might as well do away with garbage collection, sewage treatment and the school board. All fringe benefits of "wealthy municipalities".

In Hamilton: we throw our garbage out into the street, we crap out there, and we do our "book learnin's" on the street as well. Welcome to Tiger Town. PS: we're not a wealthy municipality.

[highwater]

Let's go back to gravel roads instead of repaving.

But that would cut in on Ferguson's action!

[markbarbera]

I am with steeltown on this one. Let the cost overrun by 3.5 mil. At least we'll have a somewhat decent renovation at the end of the day.

I am definitely not in favour of staying in city center. Nothing says hick town like a city hall in a vacant mall.

[raisethehammer]

I agree with Mark. in fact, I'd love to wipe out City Centre and build a proper mixed use project ala Stinson.

[MatchstickMan]

I agree with Mark. in fact, I'd love to wipe out City Centre and build a proper mixed use project ala Stinson.

If this city were intelligent, it would hire Stinson to advise on both the City Hall and on the City Centre site.

[raisethehammer]

they'd also stop listening to Lloyd Ferguson.

[SteelTown]

Architects pan 'cheap' revisions

August 13, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator

The man who first designed Hamilton City Hall and the architect in charge of its future both oppose plans to downgrade the heritage building's renovation.

Stanley Roscoe, who fought for the civic centre to have a marble facade nearly 50 years ago, says switching to concrete will take away from the building's design.

"It's a bad idea," the 86-year-old said yesterday.

Trevor Garwood-Jones, the architect behind the current renovation, agrees. Concrete and aluminum, instead of stone panels and stainless steel, will look "cheap," he said.

"We want a quality building," he said, noting councillors must remember the building will outlast their political careers.

"City Hall is a prestige building."

Downgrading materials for the facade -- consultants had recommended using limestone -- will save the city $3.5 million.

Councillors are trying to chip away at an $8.5-million overrun to get the renovation to the approved plan of $50 million.

Art French, chair of the city's heritage committee, said the advisory group will likely oppose the use of prefab concrete on the heritage designated building. But in the end, he added, council will have the final decision.

"It's not that we want everything gold plated," French said, noting the committee only wants a facade more in line with the building's history.

Plus, he said, heritage advocates are worried the city would be setting a dangerous precedent by allowing cheaper materials to be used on its own properties.

He questioned how the city could demand more of private owners in the future: "Do as I say, not as I do."

But councillors who supported the downgrading argued it's necessary to save money for the city.

Garwood-Jones said he hopes to persuade council to upgrade the material, even if it means using more attractive concrete.

[SteelTown]

City Hall is losing its marble. Now what?

August 13, 2008
Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator

People often suspect the folks at City Hall have lost their marbles and now it looks as if it's literally coming true.

Pending council's final approval, the 3,000 marble slabs gracing the exterior of the 1960 landmark on Main West are being replaced by slices of pre-cast concrete in order to cut renovation costs.

That's a big comedown from using a stone-like product that was supposed to be more "sympathetic" to the building's heritage, which they originally planned to use to replace the marble.

But don't worry. Gerry Davis, director of capital planning for the city, assures us most people won't be able to tell the difference once the concrete is up.

"It's not going to be like the basement of a house," Davis says. "It looks polished.

"It's basically the same colour as before, it's just not marble."

Well, there's some small comfort in that. I'd hate to think we were downgrading our mid-20th-century architectural classic into a Stalinist bunker.

Still, wouldn't it be nice if just once this cash-starved city could take on a big project without rubbing the engraving off every nickel and dime that goes into the job?

But what can you do?

Apparently the current marble slabs have had their day.

"The engineers said you might get five to 10 more years out of it, but nobody would put their stamp of approval on it to put it back up," Davis says.

And new marble slabs would cost more than $6 million.

Faced with an $8-million spike on an approved $50-million budget, it looks like councillors are set on tightening their cummerbunds and going with cut-rate concrete.

The question now is, what happens to that 30,000 square feet of Georgia Cherokee marble once it hits the ground?

Well, it seems most of it will wind up in the hands of whoever wins the contract to take it down, and they can do whatever they want with it -- resell, reuse or recycle.

That's actually good news for this tapped-out town.

According to Davis, the take-away value of the marble will be factored into how much the contractor is paid for the job, thus reducing the cost to the city.

So, how much is all that marble worth?

The team of companies overseeing the reno project are expected to put a price on it for the city in two or three weeks.

Davis says they're reluctant to peg it right now because they think they might be able to use some of the salvaged material in other parts of the project.

OK, now we're talking. Just think of the creative uses, both inside and outside City Hall, we could eke from that metamorphic rock.

They could make marble toilet seats for the new washrooms, providing a cooling-down spot for councillors and staffers who find themselves on the hot seat.

Or they could make marble busts of past and present councillors and scatter them on marble pedestals among marble fountains and tables in the revamped forecourt.

Clearly, with 30,000 square feet of marble to play with, the possibilities are as limitless as the range of ceremonial gifts and official gewgaws they could produce: clocks and vases, chessboards and wine goblets, penholders and paperweights.

Heck, to further recoup some of the costs of the project, they could even open a little souvenir shop in the lobby of City Hall that councillors could take turns running in order to hone their entrepreneurial skills and, during slow times, mull over their mistakes.

Best of all, they'd still have plenty of marble left over to chisel political tombstones for those councillors who don't survive the next election.

Give this council's track record, we could be looking at a whole new graveyard.

[SteelTown]

I work next to McMaster Hospital and as many of you know it's all concrete facade, slowly McMaster has been replacing the facade with glass walls. But anyways when it rains, which we've been getting A LOT lately, the concrete facade looks like crap, darker grey and leaves a trail.

With the marble it doesn't get darker when it rains. With limestone it will, though I think water dries up quicker with limestone.

[raisethehammer]

Honestly, I would prefer they spend the extra $6million and replace the marble.
We're talking city hall...and doing the job right. How much does concrete cost? Just bump it up an extra $5-6million and do it right, with marble.

[highwater]

I'd be fine with limestone. Limestone was considered originally and likely would have been alot less problematic than the marble, so in a way it would be in keeping with the building's heritage, as well as the symbolic tie in with the escarpment.

The other penny-pincher they're considering is going from stainless steel to aluminum for the window frames. Not only is this symbolically horrific for a steel town, but we all know how shabby aluminum looks after it's been rained on a couple of times. If they go with concrete and aluminum instead of limestone and steel, it will look like crap in a couple of years and all the yahoos will start howling about tearing down the 'eyesore' and the 50 some odd million will be wasted anyway. Never has the phrase 'penny wise, pound foolish' been more relevant.

[SteelTown]

Don't cheapen City Hall's heritage value

August 14, 2008
Evelyn Myrie
The Hamilton Spectator

It is not an easy decision to make. The city is cash strapped and has to cut costs to meet its budget. The cost of renovating City Hall has gone beyond its budget by approximately $8.5 million, and tough decisions will have to be made.

Taxpayers want to know that their elected councillors, stewards of our public purse, are keeping a watchful eye on the city coffers.

Earlier this week we Hamiltonians learned that the budget for renovating the heritage building is beyond its approved cost of $50 million. To trim this overrun the city is planning to replace the building's marble exterior with precast concrete.

Limestone had been recommended by the project architects, but the city has gone to the bargain basement in an effort to cut its growing cost.

Using concrete, the city would save $2.5 million.

The once-dubbed Steel City will also save an additional $1 million if it uses aluminum for window trim instead of the existing stainless steel.

A total of $3.5 million will be saved with these changes.

The heritage folks are crying foul, and they have good reason to do so. Hamilton City Hall is cited as one of the most unique modern architectural structures in Ontario. And despite the claim by Councillor Lloyd Ferguson that the change to precast concrete will make no difference to the look of the building, architects and preservationists are shuddering at the thought.

Having fought to get the marble facade on the city centrepiece some 50 years ago when the building was erected, the landmark's architect, Stanley Roscoe, finds it difficult today to comprehend the downgrading of the building materials.

City Hall is the symbolic centrepiece of our community. One of the key selling points for keeping the current City Hall, instead of demolishing it, centred on the fact that the building had heritage value.

Why change the look of a building that the city is trying to preserve? Demolishing the building and starting afresh might have been a better way to go, as no discussion of heritage preservation would have been relevant at this point.

We are not a wealthy city, and our poverty rates make us cringe, but our city's image is also important to boosting community spirit. Adopting the "dollar store approach" to our spending decisions may not be wisest in the long run. It's common knowledge that one cannot sacrifice quality for quantity as wise "cost saving" strategy.

Hamilton has taken its hits over the years. We have been called many undeserved names. Ontarians do not have much good to say about our city until they actually get here and find out for themselves that we have been given a bad rap. There is much to be celebrated in this city.

Our civic landmarks are worth preserving. When the city decided to renovate City Hall instead of demolishing it, a message was sent that our history is an important part of the city's future. It's worth spending the extra cash in the short term to preserve one of the city's most prominent heritage buildings.

Replacing the marble facade with precast concrete is no way to preserve the key international style and architectural features of the Roscoe-designed building, which the city originally set out to do as a part of its renovation plans.

Downtown Hamilton needs all the help it can get to improve its aesthetics.

[adam]

http://www.nothingtoseehere.net/images/welcome-to-concrete.jpg

This is in a town called Concrete in Washington state.

[DC83]

^^ Funny... I thought it was a render for City Hall!

From today's Spec:

http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/images/f3/1a/1077611d486a99a737ff40e0f7cd.jpeg
http://thespec.com/Opinions

I'm throwing my vote behing Beer Cap Mosaiic! At least it will look similar to what we have now! hahaha

[adam]

.

[adam]

The beer cap mosaic option was meant to be funny in the cartoon, but to be perfectly honest, it would at least be a point of interest and draw tourism. They could use Lakeport caps only and support a local business.

[raisethehammer]

make the exterior of city hall like the interior of Easterbrooks HotDog stand. That would be wicked.

[DC83]

make the exterior of city hall like the interior of Easterbrooks HotDog stand. That would be wicked.

So we can pin up business cards and write "DC WAS HERE 2008" beside the photo of Dan McLean & Mayor Fred sharing a footlong? SWEET!!! hahahaha

[SteelTown]

LOL!

Well there is a picture and a signature from Matt Hayes there so perhaps Matt Hayes and Mayor Fred sharing a footlong.

[markbarbera]

How come corrugated iron isn't being considered for cladding? Imagine the savings if we used this instead of concrete. And why even bother with windows? City staff could get more done if they didn't spend so much time looking outside.

[adam]

A heritage designated city hall covered in concrete. :koko:

[SteelTown]

There's no point in saving the current City Hall if councillors decide to use concrete facade.

Might as well go with a brand new City Hall.

[markbarbera]

Agreed.

[fastcarsfreedom]

How about Stelcalloy?

This is absolutely disgusting. If they were seriously going to strip all the heritage materials off the building--what's the point? I'm at the point where I think they should've gone the demolition route--this option of using discount building materials shows the disregard this city's leaders have for the value of a building that is supposed to be symbolic of the city--a point of pride.

What's next, painting over the wood inside Hamilton Place?

[raisethehammer]

MacTac the wood.

I know of a demolition company who is in line to get the contract IF city hall were to be demolished.
Who knows if they are pulling strings here behind the scenes.
I have no interest in even discussing demolition. The bottom line is that there will NEVER be another building like it. If we lose it, it's gone for good.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Agreed RTH--I didn't want to see demolition either--the building is priceless. I just think it as a travesty that they are doing this nickel-squeezing routine on the renovation. You would hear no argument from me if the white marble weren't so integral to the design of the building...and aluminum window frames?

[FairHamilton]

Why not http://www.vinylbilt.com/

Hey, my suggestion just saved the city another $250,000. I know I shouldn't joke someone might get ideas...........................

[raisethehammer]

let's hope Lloyd Ferguson isn't reading this.
He'll show up at council next week with a new plan for a MACtac, beer cap, autographed business card, vinylbilt, duct tape facade for city hall.
At a grand total of $882.76 how can council say no. Such great value for the money.
And lo and behold, it just so happens that Dufferin Construction is skilled with these materials (I figured that upon seeing the completed job in the Meadowlands).

[SteelTown]

More concrete and less green for overbudget city hall project

By Kevin Werner
News
Aug 15, 2008

The green roof is gone, and so is the LEED certification. And politicians decided to use concrete instead of marble to renovate City Hall's exterior in an effort to save money for a project that is about three million dollars over budget.

But Ancaster councillor Lloyd Ferguson says the renovation plans are still doing very well.

"It is going excellently," said the chair of the City Hall renovations subcommittee.

Mr. Ferguson's optimism was bolstered by the consultant ABE projecting the City Hall renovation project would be completed, and the city employees moved back from the Hamilton City Centre by Canada Day, July 1, 2010. The shorter completion date from the original fall schedule will save the city about $800,000.

It's expected construction will begin Oct. 7, 2008.

"The final marks are still out (on the project) but the report card so far is looking very good," said Mr. Ferguson.

Still, committee members are becoming more conscious of the rising cost of the project. The project had exceeded its budget this month by $8.9 million.

The total project costs about $68.5 million, with about $50 million budgeted for renovating city hall, repairing the wishbone driveway and parking garage; $6.4 million for consulting fees, $3 million for furniture and technical improvements, $600,000 for permits, $5 million for the temporary accommodations at the Hamilton City Centre and $7.5 million for contingencies.

Politicians decided this week to use pre-cast concrete for the city hall's exterior rather than the marble facade, saving about $2.5 million.

They also eliminated the idea of building a $500,000 green roof, and to seek LEED certification, at a cost of $1.7 million, reducing the budget to about $53 million.

"I am not prepared to spend taxpayers money on a symbol," said west Mountain councillor Terry Whitehead.

The concrete, said Mr. Ferguson, is cheaper, and will last longer than marble especially in Hamilton's extreme weather conditions. City Hall's current marble facade, as has been pointed out, started to crumble soon after it was installed in the sixties.

"(The concrete) looks excellent, just like the real marble," said Mr. Ferguson. "We don't want to take a risk with the marble again."

[SteelTown]

Partnerships helping to bring project in under budget, says Ferguson

News
Aug 15, 2008

The consultants, ABC, had recommended the city use dimensional limestone, which comes from Hamilton, the same material used in the Canadian Embassy in Washington. The heritage committee had already recommended the city replace the marble. The heritage committee is a voluntary group that advises council. It is up to council, though, to make the final decision.

Still, the city has to apply for a heritage permit to the heritage committee. The city and its consultants are scheduled to review with the heritage committee their applications on Sept. 3 and Sept. 10.

Politicians also agreed to use aluminum instead of stainless steel to renovate the city hall's north facade. Mr. Ferguson said aluminum is cheaper, and there will be minimal visual differences than steel, but at less cost.

"If it looks the same, and has no impact on the energy conservation, I'd go for the cheaper one," said Councillor Chad Collins. "We are already over budget."

Still unresolved is whether the committee will approve the construction of a $5 million ice rink in the city hall forecourt, and install a $2 million water feature, which is expected to be a fountain. There is also the unknown cost of operating a restaurant in the lower level of city hall.

Mr. Ferguson said included in the plans is for two water pools to be redeveloped in the forecourt. There used to be two water fountains and pools in front of city hall, but they were filled in replaced with plants. City staff stated it was too expensive to maintain the pools.

Mr. Whitehead suggested to defray the cost of the ice rink, the city could ask a local service club to raise money and operate the facility. He pointed to the Dundas Rotary Club as an example of a city partnership. The Dundas Rotary Club is raising funds to pay for an ice rink in the Dundas Driving Park. City staff is providing the equipment.

"There would be some interest within the community to get involved," said Mr. Whitehead. "The 'wow' factor is important to attracting people (to city hall)."

Also included in the first floor of city hall will be interactive computer kiosks for public use, the small business centre, relocated from Jackson Square and a business facilitation centre.

Mr. Ferguson credits the "unique" partnership between the city and ABE, Prism Partners and Black and McDonald, which are "working as a team" to bring the renovation project under budget, while allowing councillors to pick and choose what items can be included in the project.

"This is new, and something different, and so far it is working," said Mr. Ferguson.

[DC83]

omg this is so frustrating! Typical Hamilton BS.

Why not just set up a couple portables?

NEW City Hall -- the Temple of Frugality

http://www.irelandgretchen.com/Images/portable%20classrooms.jpg

[raisethehammer]

"this is new and something different" - Ferguson.

No kidding, idiot.
It's 'new and different' because no other city would dream of butchering their seat of government to save a few million and lower the bar city-wide for other property owners to live up to.
What a jerk.

[SteelTown]

No green roof? Fine you can always add soil and plants whenever funding is available in the future, no LED funding? That’s disappointing but fine. Aluminum over stainless steel? Fine, I don't mind. Concrete facade? Absolutely not! Limestone please.

[coalminecanary]

I am definitely not in favour of staying in city center. Nothing says hick town like a city hall in a vacant mall.

I agree with Mark. in fact, I'd love to wipe out City Centre and build a proper mixed use project ala Stinson.

I know it's too late for this but if they stayed in city centre, it wouldn't be a mall anymore. spend the city hall cash on a complete rebuild of the facade - streetfront retail with a proper clock tower and entrance, and when you go in, city hall sprawls out behind the retail wall. no retail inside, food court and atrium (indoor "park" - public space) on bottom floor.



How come corrugated iron isn't being considered for cladding? Imagine the savings if we used this instead of concrete. And why even bother with windows? City staff could get more done if they didn't spend so much time looking outside.

hilarious

but sad

[raisethehammer]

No green roof? Fine you can always add soil and plants whenever funding is available in the future, no LED funding? That’s disappointing but fine. Aluminum over stainless steel? Fine, I don't mind. Concrete facade? Absolutely not! Limestone please.

I disagree. If they do this wrong now, it will stay wrong forever.
Aluminum?? come on. I've taken tons of pics of City hall and every time I do a shoot I can't get enough of that stainless steel. It's amazing. No other building is like city hall.
The marble, steel and tile mosaics are what make the building so unique, along with it's shape.
To screw up 3 of the 4 features is a travesty.

[adam]

Exactly. Its an investment for the future.

[thistleclub]

Still unresolved is whether the committee will approve the construction of a $5 million ice rink in the city hall forecourt.... There used to be two water fountains and pools in front of city hall, but they were filled in replaced with plants. City staff stated it was too expensive to maintain the pools.

Mr. Whitehead suggested to defray the cost of the ice rink, the city could ask a local service club to raise money and operate the facility. He pointed to the Dundas Rotary Club as an example of a city partnership. The Dundas Rotary Club is raising funds to pay for an ice rink in the Dundas Driving Park. City staff is providing the equipment.

"There would be some interest within the community to get involved," said Mr. Whitehead. "The 'wow' factor is important to attracting people (to city hall)."

Dundas Driving Park is an out-of-the way location, a little woodsy and reasonably sheltered from the elements, which adds to its appeal. The City Hall forecourt is open to the elements, which will put some people off but is also a positive since ice is weather-contingent. Nine months a year, possibly more, you've got a $5 million reflecting pool that you can't afford to maintain at "wow" status.

[SteelTown]

I'm liking the forecourt idea, ice rank, water feature, fix the two water pools, and a restaurant, lemme guess Tim Hortons? But anyways it sounds good.

Put water jets shooting at each other over the ice rack during the warmer month, kinda like Canada's Wonderland. That would be nice, of course the jets have to light up at night as well.

[SteelTown]

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/04/43/82/fountains-as-you-enter.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/JetsofWateratCanadasWonderland.jpg/800px-JetsofWateratCanadasWonderland.jpg

http://www.rjvanseters.com/img/canwonnight1.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/2545325989_7964c117c3.jpg?v=1212435993

[DC83]

^^ I always thought it would be neat to make our 'H' logo into a fountain somehow?

http://testunix.mediaforce1.com/itp/images/hamilton_logo.jpg

Maybe have a tall (like 30') 'H' logo standing in a huge urban pond with water shooting up with LEDs to light it up... then freeze it in the winter and enjoy your Tim's while you skate around the H!

[adam]

If the water jets could be aimed at the doors of city hall and triggered by a coin-operated button for residents. That way when your "favourite" councillor walks out, squirt!

[SteelTown]

^^ I always thought it would be neat to make our 'H' logo into a fountain somehow?

http://testunix.mediaforce1.com/itp/images/hamilton_logo.jpg

Maybe have a tall (like 30') 'H' logo standing in a huge urban pond with water shooting up with LEDs to light it up... then freeze it in the winter and enjoy your Tim's while you skate around the H!

Oh that would be so friggin cool. And it's doable too. Email that suggestion to someone, perhaps Ferguson.

[FairHamilton]

If the water jets could be aimed at the doors of city hall and triggered by a coin-operated button for residents. That way when your "favourite" councillor walks out, squirt!

LOL, the local bank branches would be out of rolls of coins for months..... :)

[DC83]

^^ Hmmm I'd love to but I fear they might use cornstalks as building material!?

I'll email it to Bratina... he's the only one I trust! Hopefully he could forward it to the rest of council. I'll try to throw together a better rendering when I get home (and by that I mean C&P that logo into a photo of a fountain hahaha)

[highwater]

Oh that would be so friggin cool. And it's doable too. Email that suggestion to someone, perhaps Ferguson.

If it doesn't involve concrete, there's no upside for him.

[adam]

kickbacks / construction companies / contracts / Hamilton

[raisethehammer]

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/04/43/82/fountains-as-you-enter.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/JetsofWateratCanadasWonderland.jpg/800px-JetsofWateratCanadasWonderland.jpg

http://www.rjvanseters.com/img/canwonnight1.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/2545325989_7964c117c3.jpg?v=1212435993


I love your idea.
If they axe the forecourt, fountain, skating rink, cafe from this project along with the marble, tiles and steel I'll go friggin nuts. What the heck are we paying for???

[fastcarsfreedom]

I agree with the decision to not spend for the LEED "symbol".

My primary concerns remain the removal of the marble and stainless steel. Considering this appears to be a fait accompli, they absolutely must go with the water feature/rink--that will partially satisfy my disappointment at the loss of the key architectural features.

Has anyone seen this marble? What came to mind for me, was AON Center in Chicago (among my favorite buildings) which had it's marble facade replaced with granite in the early 1990s due to similar degredation of the marble. FCP in Toronto has also had challenges with it's marble cladding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aon_Center_%28Chicago%29

[raisethehammer]

wow...that huge thing was built with marble??? amazing.

[SteelTown]

You can see the all the different panels at the West side of City Hall.

[adam]

Is the Go Station made out of concrete slabs? It looks great whatever it is.

[the dude]

^limestone.

this is all very disappointing to hear. we really ought to just tear the damn thing down, though its replacement would also be a great disappointment. i recall laughing when i heard ferguson was in charge of city hall renovation. the laughs continue.

the best idea i've heard in awhile is closing main to through traffic. too bad it'll never happen. dare to dream.

[raisethehammer]

You can see the all the different panels at the West side of City Hall.

I'm talking about the Chicago skyscraper fastcars linked to.

[thistleclub]

Maybe someone can pitch the water feature as defensive perk – a moat with optional water cannons, designed to break up massed assemblies in the forecourt. That should complement the concrete bunker nicely.

[SteelTown]

I'm talking about the Chicago skyscraper fastcars linked to.

Oh I was just informing others that the panels are currently outside City Hall for everyone to see, on the West side of City Hall.

[raisethehammer]

ahhh, thanks. I'll have to check it out.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Ahh--they have them there for public viewing?

Let us know how they look and snap some photos if you get the chance.

[raisethehammer]

I might go by and graffiti them. Lol.

[fastcarsfreedom]

You might as well RTH, before some punk-ass "artist" beats you to the punch.

[coalminecanary]

rth - are you chillen????

[raisethehammer]

oh yea! I'm always chillen.