[MsMe]

That is impressive, although unfortunately I think it's about $950,000 short lol.

I was surprised too they got that much already. Especially in a recession. When is the date set for when they need all the money for?

[crhayes]

I was surprised too they got that much already. Especially in a recession. When is the date set for when they need all the money for?

Well apparently now they are in talks about locating to a different building downtown (possibly City Center) but if they remain at 71 Main the date for ordering the cladding material is December 12th.

[highwater]

City Hall insiders tell me there is little chance of council reversing it's decision to renovate and remain at 71 Main St at this late stage of the game. It would be a shame if this red herring impacted the effort to renovate 71 Main in a way that we can be proud of. (Full disclosure: I was involved in the rally, I love the City Hall building, and believe it can be an iconic building all Hamiltonians can be proud of someday.)

In the meantime, the effort to clad City Hall in limestone has a facebook page, http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=49678044872, and a youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxkW8K1bVFM.

These are just pledges at the moment, so if you support City Hall remaining at the HCC, but you still care about the heritage aspects of 71 Main, you can make a pledge and you won't be held to it if by some chance Council does vote to remain in the HCC.

[SteelTown]

Call off City Hall renovation, Bratina says

December 02, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/475405

Downtown Councillor Bob Bratina wants to reopen the City Hall renovation debate -- again.

With the economic crisis growing, Bratina believes council could save taxpayers millions if it cancelled the $74-million renovation of City Hall and sold the property.

By his own calculation, Bratina estimates the renovation will cost the city nearly $150 million to finance over the next 20 years. Staying at the City Centre in a lease-to-own deal would only cost upwards of $60 million, he said.

"I think the numbers speak for themselves, don't you?" Bratina said in an e-mail.

But several other councillors say they have little interest in reopening the issue that's already gone through multiple debates and votes.

"Absolutely not," said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson, who is chairing the City Hall renovation committee. "We've picked our path; we need to follow it."

In spring 2007, Mayor Fred Eisenberger asked council to tear down the heritage building and build a new municipal centre. His idea was shot down as council reaffirmed a previous term's decision to renovate.

"You've got to accept the corporate decision and move on," said Ferguson, who supported building new at the time.

Eisenberger said he's not interested in another round of debate.

"I don't even want to go there," he said. "I think we're well past this issue."

Bratina would need to get the support of two-thirds of council to reconsider its last position, which Eisenberger characterized as unlikely.

Last January, Bratina and Councillor Terry Whitehead also floated the idea of selling City Hall, but received little support from council.

This time, Bratina said he has another councillor willing to second his request to look at the numbers. The City Hall site is "prime real estate" that could earn the city several million, Bratina said.

He noted the city could retain the heritage designation on City Hall and encourage its redevelopment with grants.

"The world has changed since the decision was made and that's why I am persisting," Bratina said.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Councillor Bratina just sent this email out to local newsmedia:


Currently our plan to provide the required 400,000 square of office space will cost an estimated 160 million dollars over the next twenty years as opposed to 50 million dollars by staying where we are.

The current plan will require us to borrow several million dollars, and therefore raise taxes significantly.

Remaining at the City Centre would cost about 50 million dollars over 20 years, with no money down, no need to raise taxes and all employees under one roof as opposed to several l (City Hall, Lister Block, plus 140,000 sq ft in other locations)

I'm simply asking that staff review these figures and report to Council. We can then decide what the best course is to take on behalf of tax-payers

[SteelTown]

So is Bratina suggesting to break away from the Lister Block agreement and not purchase the newly renovated building?

[Dundasguy]

Finally, someone is talking sense at city hall.

[drpgq]

Who does Bratina have in mind that would pay reasonable money for City Hall?

[FairHamilton]

Who does Bratina have in mind that would pay reasonable money for City Hall?

In today's market conditions, I'm betting no one.

[adam]

What about Harry Stinson? :hyper:

[FairHamilton]

What about Harry Stinson? :hyper:

Well I believe there is a foundation (or space for a foundation) in the back of the building for a tower which would turn the configuration of the building into a 'Y'.

[SteelTown]

City Hall pullout: big bucks

December 04, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/476517

If Hamilton backed out of its planned renovation of City Hall, it could be on the hook for millions in penalties.

Councillor Bob Bratina wants the city to investigate cancelling the $74-million project because of the economic downturn. But Joe Rinaldo, acting city manager, cautioned the city has a binding deal with contractors that would cost millions to break.

"It's going to be significant because we've already signed the contract," he said, estimating penalties could exceed $10 million.

The city has already spent $20 million on the renovation, including design and removing asbestos, Rinaldo said.

Bratina wants the city to explore a lease-to-own deal at its temporary location at City Centre. He believes it could save taxpayers millions over 20 years.

But the city has not received an offer from the mall's owners. Bratina said he's estimating the cost would be $50 million, based on multiplying the current rent by 20 years.

Rinaldo said the calculation doesn't factor in renovations over time or the financing cost.

Still, Bratina believes the city would be ahead if it cancelled the project and sold the City Hall site.

The Spectator polled councillors on whether they would support Bratina's request. The majority said they wouldn't.

[SteelTown]

A math problem

Bob Bratina’s proposal to investigate cancelling the City Hall renovation is causing lots of commotion. You’ll recall I wrote a story earlier this week based on Bratina’s figures suggesting the city could save $100 million over 20 years if it canned the projects and bought the City Centre instead.

Many people are questioning if his calculations are correct. At this point, I honestly don’t know.

Fercan sent a letter to council tonight offering a lease-to-own deal for City Centre. They say it’s worth more than $50 million, but don’t name a price. (Fercan paid $3.6 million in 2000 for the former Eaton Centre, which cost $77 million to build.) Bratina says the price tag is about $50 million, but says the city needs to sit down to formally negotiate. He’ll need council’s approval for that talk to happen. From my polling, he doesn’t have the votes.

I can’t say what the cost savings would be because city staff haven’t been able to crunch the numbers. There are several unknowns, like how much the city would need to spend to renovate City Centre over the next couple decades. Plus city staff say $20 million has already been spent on the City Hall renovation. And there would be penalties for cancelling the contract now. All these cost need to be factored into the equation if we want to really know how the options compare.

Staff did prepare this calculation for council today:

ALL NUMBERS ARE FORECAST OVER A FORTY (40) YEAR TERM

Existing Proposal approved by Council - 1) renovate 190,000 square feet at City Hall 2) lease the balance of space indefinitely 3) factor in the capital / operating cost of Lister - Estimated cost is $305 - $330 million over 40 years (range is using 2% and 3% escalation).

Full Lease Proposal - 1) existing downtown leases are $5,000,000 annually for 353,000 square feet (this has been grossed up to 400,000 square feet so there is an apples to apples comparison) 2) no renovation of City Hall 3) no Lister Block purchase - Estimated cost is $340 - $400 million over 40 years (range is using 2% and 3% escalation).

But Bratina, who voiced his frustration with staff today, points out his proposal isn’t to lease, it’s lease to own.

While several councillors say they would support asking staff to collect more information about options, the majority I’ve spoken to aren’t interested in reopening the City Hall debate. Bratina is bringing forward to his motion next week. I’m betting on an interesting debate that’s likely to get personal.



Keep reading if you want to see Fercan’s letter to council.


His Worship Mayor Fred Eisenberger and
All Members of Council for the City of Hamilton
Hamilton, Ontario
L8R 2K3

Dear Mr. Mayor and Members of Council:

We are writing to you as concerned citizens and businessmen in this community which we have grown to love and are proud to be a part of. We have read with interest about the various trials and tribulations with respect to the City’s difficulty in resolving their need for additional floor space accommodations, as well as the need to be fiscally prudent.

As you know, Fercan has provided the City with excellent floor space accommodations for many of your fine city employees within the City Centre (77 James Street North). To that end, we wish to enlighten your Worship and the Members of Council to consider an alternative opportunity which we believe is more advantageous than any other floor space that can be provided by anyone else in the City.

Fercan would like to bring to your attention the merits of the existing City of Hamilton and Fercan Developments Inc. lease and terms. By the City of Hamilton entering into the existing lease you have not only wisely secured long term occupancy at flexible terms, but have also guaranteed a great occupancy rate unmatchable any where in the City of Hamilton. We are hoping the City will extend the same opportunity into the additional space that Fercan has available.

For your consideration, we would respectfully submit the following proposal. We are in the unique position to offer the City of Hamilton a Lease-to-Own opportunity which Council will hopefully embrace as a perfect financial solution to the long term accommodation needs of the City of Hamilton. Moreover, this proposal will result in no additional cost to the taxpayers of this great city. The key features to this proposal include:

A. Lease-to-Own Over $50 Million Asset
Fercan Developments Inc. is interested in offering the City of Hamilton the sale of the City Centre by way of a Head Lease over the next 15 years. As a result, the City of Hamilton would own an asset with a total gross floor area of 475,000 +/- square feet valued at over $50 Million.

B. Floor Space Consolidation
Currently the City of Hamilton is leasing floor space in various locations within the downtown, with an average cost of $22 sq. ft. The City Centre can provide the advantage of an additional 60,000 sq. ft. for immediate occupancy which will instantly translate to a yearly rental cost saving to the City of $1.2 million - $1.5 million, not to mention the added bonus of administrative efficiencies.

C. Existing Revenue Stream
In addition, to savings from floor space consolidation, Fercan Developments Inc. is offering the City of Hamilton their income stream from existing retail and office tenants. This means a revenue stream of $3 million annually to the City of Hamilton.

D. Worry-Free Management
Fercan Developments Inc. will retain management of the City Centre on a worry-free basis for a nominal management fee to be mutually agreed upon.
We are certain that this offering to the City of Hamilton will result in a long-term benefit to the taxpayers of Hamilton. Moreover, this proposal provides Hamiltonians with the opportunity to repatriate the original site of the Clock Tower of City Hall in the hearts and minds of its citizens.

If you wish to pursue this opportunity further, please do not hesitate to contact me personally at your convenience.

Yours very truly,
Italo Ferrari
Fercan Developments Inc.

http://hallmarks.thespec.com/2008/12/a-math-problem-.html#more

[Mack297]

Mr Ferrari is simply "clouding the issue with facts!" .....

I wonder if the councillors opposed to Brattina's suggestion will have a ready answer when we see the final bill for the 'Taj Mahal' .. I hope Bob hangs around long enough to say "I told you so.."

By the way ... does anyone remember "Mayor Fred's" election promise that he would only stand for office for one term?

I suspect he wants the 'new' City Hall as his legacy, and i anticipate the following speech ..."After due consideration, and after serious discussions with my family, and realizing that, yes, I did indicate during my previuous campaign that I would only stand for one term , I am pleased to announce that I intend to run ....blah blah blah blah blah ..and so on and so on and so on.."

I hope Brattina doesn't let the negative response from his 'colleagues' turn him off. I think there is some merit in his idea ... perhaps with some minor changes.

Fercan only paid 3.6M bucks for the Eaton Centre ... holy crap!

Anyway ...

Mack

[SteelTown]

Council sidesteps mall plan

December 10, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/479664

Forgot about City Mall, council is moving ahead with renovating City Hall.

Downtown Councillor Bob Bratina lost his bid yesterday to have the city reconsider the project because of the economic downturn.

Bratina wanted city staff to negotiate with the owners of City Centre, the city's temporary home, to see if it would be cheaper to buy the mall, instead of fixing City Hall, buying the Lister Block and renting additional space elsewhere.

"If we are in the position to save taxpayers upwards of $100 million ... I hope you will consider it."

But critics challenged Bratina's math and argued it's too late to stop the City Hall project.

"This is a lawyer's dream and a taxpayers' nightmare," said Councillor Sam Merulla.

Though Bratina suggested the city could buy the former Eaton Centre for $50 million, staff noted the figure didn't include the cost of renovating the building to make it suitable for a permanent municipal centre. City Centre is assessed at $13 million and its owner is appealing the value.

The city has already invested at least $15 million in the City Hall renovations and would pay penalties to withdraw from the contract.

If council wants to know the exact cost of Bratina's proposal versus the current plan, it would need to hire consultants to study the mall's condition, said Gerry David, senior director of capital planning and implementation.

He estimated the reports would cost upwards of $150,000 and could take eight weeks to complete.

The cost turned off several councillors who originally said they wouldn't mind supporting Bratina's idea simply to get the information back.

"We should be able to defend our decision as a council," said Councillor Brad Clark, who later noted he couldn't justify the expense. "We can't get that information without spending a whack of money."

Only three councillors (David Mitchell, Margaret McCarthy and Scott Duvall) supported Bratina.

Duvall said he believes council owes it to the public to find out if the proposal has merit.

But Councillor Maria Pearson worried council is sending "mixed messages to the public" by continuing to debate projects like City Hall and the Lister Block.

"Decisions have been made ... Let's move on."

[FairHamilton]

Though Bratina suggested the city could buy the former Eaton Centre for $50 million, staff noted the figure didn't include the cost of renovating the building to make it suitable for a permanent municipal centre. City Centre is assessed at $13 million and its owner is appealing the value.

It's worth noting, and reporting (hint Spectator), the City Centre was assessed at $8.5M, in 2007 and increased to $13M in 2008.

I'm guessing the $4.5M assessment increase is due to the City moving it's offices into the City Centre, and filling what was previously empty space. The fact that $5.3M of the 2008 assessment is 'exempt' would confirm this fact.

[Dundasguy]

I think Brattina is on to something here. The city can stay there for the next 10 years on a lease to own and have the asset disposed of in 2019. The Eaton Centre has been a failure since it opened and will never become the retail gem it was intended to be.

I think they should buy it and sell it in 10 years for a demolition to make way for a nice mixed use development. Take the proceeds from the sale and use it to build a new city hall.

[Jon Dalton]

Another epic fail:

December 10th, 2008
As you know, following City Council’s decision to utilize concrete cladding, we received a passionate community response in support of limestone with over $55,000 pledged from over 100 individuals like yourself. Contributions ranged from $65 for one square foot to $25,000 from one individual, with many folks pledging in the $400-700 range.
We’ve also received many comments over the past three weeks about the importance of our seat of government, Hamilton City Hall. You’ve shared many personal stories about your relationship with the building and its stellar architecture, not the least of which from City Hall architect Stanley Roscoe’s wife Joan, and the granddaughter of the company that constructed the building, Mary Louise Pigott.
Unfortunately, we are writing today to say that we have been unable to raise the amount necessary to make the move away from concrete to limestone. In launching this campaign we committed to a December 10 deadline in respecting City Council’s project timelines designed for re-occupation of the building in summer, 2010.
City Hall is a designated heritage building and while the marble/natural stone cladding is not being reproduced, we can confirm that the heritage features within City Hall will be completely protected, and the outside mosaics re-pointed. Plans are underway to look at a more people-friendly forecourt.
We would like to offer you our heartfelt thanks for the very generous pledges that you provided. Special thanks to Barbara Shackleton who provided her plentiful technical skills and Hamiltonians passion to Councillor McHattie’s YouTube video on the subject.
Our community is at its best when it comes together, and there is no doubt that your pledges to clad City Hall in limestone are a case in point. Your efforts are inspirational and bode well for the future of our city, a future that must pay homage to our extensive cultural heritage and the importance of beauty and aesthetics.
Yours truly,
Brian McHattie
Ward 1 Councillor
Fred Eisenberger
Mayor

This time, on the part of the majority of citizens of Hamilton.

I was listening to CHML yesterday and they had this really easy trivia question to win some crap. It was multiple choice with 4 answers and I listened as 3 people called in with a different wrong answer and the fourth won by default. They would probably get the same success rate if they asked people where City Hall is.

[adam]

And yet they are spending $60,000.00 to speed up traffic during rush-hour on James and John.....? Let me guess, so they can spend more time buying flat-screens with a 2-3 year lifespan and watch America's Biggest Loser and similar garbage. Well, I guess its true what they say: garbage in, garbage out.

[SteelTown]

Sad that we'll end up with concrete facade now. Eck

[coalminecanary]

I'm still pulling for the mall. We haven't seen the end of this debacle yet. watch as construction costs soar and the councillors trip over themselves backpedalling. I know we get caught up in endless studies in this city, so I can understand them being wary of launching a city centre study - but it kills me to see the absolute randomness when it comes to which studies get approved. They will study the most inane things endlessly, then call this one (which could result in HUGE long term savings) frivolous.

Here's what we are missing (letter from fercan and city centre rendering):
http://hammerboard.ca/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=338&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[SteelTown]

You would get rid of the tower?? You know that tower was part of the old City Hall? haha

So based on the rendering City Centre City Hall would be facing James St, looking directly across the Lister Block.

[coalminecanary]

I don't mean get rid of. I mean revamp so that it does not look like disneyworld. At LEAST get rid of the steel flags!

THe tower was not original but they reused the clock and bell. they could do so again with a new tower. Ideally the tower would be worked into the facade on james right at king william.

this rendering is not at all how i pictured it being done but i like the iodea of a small forecourt there... couple that with a pedestrianized king william and a bridge to the lister. It would be nice. Too bad 12 of the councillors can't look past their own noses ;-)

[realcity]

http://neenerneet.net/images/city-mall.jpg

ugly for a city hall... i remember this rendering floated years ago by Fercan. It looks like Kitchener or Welland.

I think the mall should be renovated like that but it's not a proud City Hall to me. It should be a 20-story signature tower.

Let's see, a candy-cane arch over the James street, Mounted Police that haven't been in Hamilton in 100 years, a UN air balloon, the cheesy clock tower with fake flags and apparently people downtown walk around with balloons for no reason.

[highwater]

Gah! What tripe. Too bad people can't see past their noses and recognize that we have a nationally significant, iconic building that we could actually be proud of if we had taken better care of it, and still can be if we mitigate the rest of the renovations. That rendering still reeks of a shopping mall, and a mediocre pastiche of one at that. I can't believe people are seriously considering tossing away an architectural masterpiece for that garbage. Council made the right decision this time. We can't keep tossing perfectly sound buildings aside every generation and replacing them with nondescript junk. It's culturally and environmentally unsustainable for starters.

[SteelTown]

Oh this just keeps getting better........

From CHML

"The committee has also been asked to honor Jack MacDonald, by putting his name on the soon-to-be redeveloped square around Hamilton City Hall.  

That proposal must still be considered, but it has been put forward by retired businessman Pat Valeriano, who has also tried to have MacDonald's name attached to the Red Hill Valley Parkway and the central library in recent years.

MacDonald served as mayor from 1976 to 1980."

Jack MacDonald Square huh?

[FairHamilton]

MacDonald served as mayor from 1976 to 1980."

Jack MacDonald Square huh?

Admittedly, I don't know anything about Jack MacDonald, as I'm just reading his name here for the first time.

But, I don't think only 4 years as Mayor should get your name on anything.

[coalminecanary]

yup that rendering's not how i would do it. but it does show that the building could be significantly changed.

I'd do a new tower right at king william and make it look like a grand city hall entrance.

[SteelTown]

Admittedly, I don't know anything about Jack MacDonald, as I'm just reading his name here for the first time.

But, I don't think only 4 years as Mayor should get your name on anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_MacDonald_(Hamilton_politician)

[FairHamilton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_MacDonald_(Hamilton_politician)

That helped crystalize everything, lol.

[oldcoote]

Admittedly, I don't know anything about Jack MacDonald, as I'm just reading his name here for the first time.

Well, he was the guy who showed up at the LRT public forum, and threw his support behind electric trolleys. :runaway:

[crhayes]

Well, he was the guy who showed up at the LRT public forum, and threw his support behind electric trolleys. :runaway:

In my opinion that rendering looks nothing like a mall. The render makes it look like the outside would be stucco, that's probably why it looks shiet. IF the outside was done in a nice natural stone it would look awesome. As coalminecanary said a tower right in the center (by the entrance) would be nice.

[SteelTown]

Design for concrete-clad City Hall moves ahead

December 26, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/487107

The city has finished its design for the exterior of City Hall and it continues to be a concrete plan.

A community fundraiser, organized by Councillor Brian McHattie, failed to generate enough donations to pay for a more expensive limestone facade.

Council rejected the material in favour of concrete to save approximately $3 million on the $74-million renovation project.

After a rally to protest the decision, McHattie's office started to collect pledges for the limestone campaign. Approximately 150 donors pledged $66,000.

McHattie said he wanted to hit at least $1 million before asking the city to cover the rest.

"I was really impressed by the community response," he said. "Unfortunately, we needed to get a higher number."

Gerry Davis, director of capital planning, said the design for the exterior has been finalized based on council's decision to use precast concrete. The city will issue the tender for the material in the new year.

"Everything is in full gear for it to be done," Davis said.

Backtracking on the decision now would put the project behind, he added. The renovation is slated to be done in the summer of 2010.

"I'm determined to keep this project on schedule," said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson, chair of the renovation committee. "We can't afford to let things get in the way."

McHattie said he won't pursue the issue so he won't be "seen as holding council to ransom."

Still, McHattie said he believes council will eventually come to regret its decision to use the cheaper material on a heritage-designated building. He points to the economic downturn as the reason for the fundraising shortfall. McHattie said the mayor approached several well-known local philanthropists. who rejected his request.

[adam]

Someone told me they are using an aggregate that will simulate the look of limestone... anyone know? If so then all of the people who participated in the protest did not do so in vein.

[realcity]

we can forget about calling this a heritage building anymore. Just like the replica fountain in gore park.

If I had know that this so-called 'renovation' was going to be like this (and I'll bet we'll get more cheaping-out) I would've said tear it down and build something better, something bigger, taller to accommodate everyone now and in the future. Something that would make us proud. Instead this will be a constant reminder of how screwed-up the City is.

[adam]

I emailed a certain mountain counsellor and recieved a response back that was almost impossible to read. Riddled with really strange grammar errors. If you can't spell your own name, you probably shouldn't be making decisions for a city of over half a million..

[SteelTown]

^ Mitchell.

Anyways the City Hall renovation brouhaha is the biggest most frustrating issue of the year for me. I'm really disappointed with council. Money is money and there’s plenty of money out there. It's being printed out every day, council could have worked united together to find the extra $2.5 million for limestone.

I just really hope that the forecourt design is spectacular to minimize the whole façade tragedy.

[thistleclub]

I just really hope that the forecourt design is spectacular to minimize the whole façade tragedy.

Have a bad feeling about this one as it's the element they cocked up the first time through (water features especially), and has generally been pitched as both a "must" and an extra, something they want (and now need to warm the joint up) but can't afford without the private sector kicking in. Maybe Dufferin will do it for naming rights.

On a related note, someone should get a photo of City Hall tonight -- gutted building lit on every floor, with the tree twinkling out front of the security fencing. It bears passing resemblance to a Christmas card moment.

[chris_erl]

I emailed a certain mountain counsellor and recieved a response back that was almost impossible to read. Riddled with really strange grammar errors. If you can't spell your own name, you probably shouldn't be making decisions for a city of over half a million..

I do hope you were talking about the Man from the 8th...

This whole controversy is distracting us from the real issues affecting our city! The way I see it, who cares if City Hall is clad in marble, concrete or straw for that matter if we have a downtown that is simply puttering along.

Council should have waited until they improved infrastructure downtown and began to bring jobs in before tackling City Hall.

A council of misguided intentions will not make this city into the economic, social and political engine it could be!

[thistleclub]

Council should have waited until they improved infrastructure downtown and began to bring jobs in before tackling City Hall.

A council of misguided intentions will not make this city into the economic, social and political engine it could be!

Fair enough, although it's not just this council that has fumbled downtown. For decades, the established thinking at City Hall seems to have been that downtown development would naturally ensue once suburban build-out was achieved -- the reasoning being that dollars and jobs would have nowhere else to go but downtown. But it's not simply development and jobs that downtown craves but jobs of a higher grade. Adding a tower full of telemarketers, for example, would be an illusory boon for employment figures and a mixed blessing over all. Aside from the psychological benefits of a healthy local EQI, a downtown that's packed with unstable, part-time, low-paying jobs is a dubious foundation for an urban renaissance. It would be nice if suburban councillors could remember that "Together Aspire, Together Achieve" business when it comes to the city's heart.

[ryan_mcgreal]

I just really hope that the forecourt design is spectacular to minimize the whole façade tragedy.

Er, would that be the unfunded forecourt? :(

[SteelTown]

Money has been put away for the forecourt design, can't remember the extact figure. Maybe I'll search for it.

The cost is for skating rink and a garden with new surface. Mayor Fred is trying to get sponsors for a better design. I'm betting "Dufferin Forecourt"

[SteelTown]

The 'wow' factor

Ah the City Hall renovation, it's the debate that keeps on giving. Now councillors are pondering whether the city should spend an extra $2 million to glass in the forecourt below council chambers. If you've ever visited City Hall, you know the current building has a front overhang that covers part of forecourt and stairs. In the mayor's words it's "dark and dingy," not to mention rarely used.

For $2 million the city could glass in the area to create all season meeting space. The reception could be pushed out or it could just be used as a place to hold events. The majority of councillors on the renovation committee believe it's money well spent to give City Hall a much needed "wow factor."

But Councillor Chad Collins thinks it's a waste of money to create sapce that would be rarely used. The only wow factor, he says, is the price. He'd rather see the money go to other projects higher on the priority list, like sewer and road repairs.

The city is looking to federal capital funding or previously approved capital dollars to cover the expense.

Would you support the addtion?

http://hallmarks.thespec.com/

[SteelTown]

Grrr yea request federal funding for $2 million to glass up below the council chambers......Dunno could have requested federal for $2.5 million for the facade you morons. Grrr

Halifax is requesting $7 million from the shovel ready list to restore the City Hall facade......."Halifax City Hall Stone Restoration Buildings $7,000,000"

[SteelTown]

Moving the renderings back to this page....

Renderings.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/CityHallforecourt.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/CityHallfront.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/CityHallinside1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/CityHallinside2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/CityHall2ndfloor.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/CityHallcouncil2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/CityHallcouncil.jpg

[SteelTown]

Council eyes $2m enclosure for City Hall reno

January 20, 2009
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/499167

The city is looking to spend another $2 million on the City Hall renovation to give it a "wow" factor.

Councillors offered preliminary support yesterday for glassing in the forecourt under council chambers to create an all-season gathering space.

"City Hall is about the people," said Councillor Terry Whitehead. "This is going to be functional space. (It) is not going to be wasted space."

But Councillor Chad Collins, the only member of the renovation committee to oppose the proposal, argued the area would essentially be a "glorified lobby" that would only be used for people to walk through.

"There's no bang for the buck," he said. "The only wow factor here is the price tag."

The cost of the City Hall renovation is sitting at $74 million.

Currently, council's chambers hang out over the steps leading to City Hall's front doors. Mayor Fred Eisenberger said the space below the chambers is rarely used for events because it's "dark and dingy."

"This enclosure makes more useable space," he said.

The proposal calls for the space to be used mainly for gatherings, and perhaps expanding the reception area or a planned cafe on the ground floor.

The idea must still go before the city's public works committee and council.

Yesterday, councillors noted their support is contingent on finding funding for the extra cost. Staff plan to apply for infrastructure funding from the federal government or use council's strategic capital fund.

About $5 million in capital funding was set aside in this year's budget for special council projects.

Collins said he would hate to see government or capital dollars go toward the glass enclosure when there are other pressing needs, such as sewer and road work.

Ancaster Councillor Lloyd Ferguson, who is chairing the renovation committee, said he understands the cost concerns, but worries City Hall won't look any different after the renovation.

"People will wonder, 'What the heck did you spend all that money on?' " he said of the $74 million.

He said the glass enclosure would give the building a new face.

[realcity]

big wow..... it is a glorified lobby.

what do they expect it to be used for? protests? give me a break. the thing will be locked tight. or else it'll be a homeless shelter.

Question: Is City Hall (including this space) considered public property?

[SteelTown]

^ It should be, funded by taxpayers.

The space will probably be used from Canadian Football Hall of Fame when they add a new memebers to the Hall of Fame and likely a spot to have open houses for the public to view.

"People will wonder, 'What the heck did you spend all that money on?' " he [Ferguson] said of the $74 million.

Well I dunno could have used the $2 million instead on the limestone facade and that would have been a noticable change. Grrr

[realcity]

I guess there's no fountains in the water pools? So they will be filled with leaves and floating Tim Hortons cups, unless maintained/cleaned regularly.

Will the council chamber still look like the UN? In the past movies used it as the UN Council.

[realcity]

So if this 'glass enclosed forecourt' is public space, then I can just go there with 20 of my family and friends and celebrate my son's birthday, with a picnic lunch and scavenger hunt? just like I could at Gage Park?

If not, then it is just a glorified 'fore lobbey' foyer and part of the interior of the building.

[SteelTown]

Those fountains will be covered up with plants if they go with the reflecting pool/skating rink. If no reflecting pool/skating rink than the fountains will be restored.

I see no major changes to the council chamber expect it's more modern and has wood panelling.

[realcity]

Definition

Architecture: foyer

1. An entranceway or transitional space from the exterior to the interior of a building.

2. The area between the outer lobby and an auditorium.

3. The lobby itself.

[SteelTown]

So if this 'glass enclosed forecourt' is public space, then I can just go there with 20 of my family and friends and celebrate my son's birthday, with a picnic lunch and scavenger hunt? just like I could at Gage Park?

If not, then it is just a glorified 'fore lobbey' foyer and part of the interior of the building.

Dunno could you do the same at Ellen Fairclough Building, John C. Munro Federal building, Central Library, etc?

[coalminecanary]

http://neenerneet.net/images/moneypit-cityhall.jpg

[realcity]

good question. but those said buildings didn't position their lobbies to be used in the same format that this article mentions the 'glass enclosed forecourt' space will be used.

[realcity]

nice one coalmine http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/giggle.gif

[SteelTown]

HAHA instead of Terry is should be Ferguson.

[coalminecanary]

Ya but terry is lovin the 2 mil lobby idea

They need to stay on James street. 71 main est is dead to me now. GIve it away to someone with the caveat that they do a proper restoration.

how about ryerson or something?

[SteelTown]

It'll be even more of a money pit if you sell the building now. Millions are already commited to various contracts. You would have to pay large penalties to back out.

[coalminecanary]

its called cutting your losses and every day they don't it's just costing us more!

[geoff's two cents]

Can't remember where I posted this (rth or here), but I suggested ages ago that something be done with the lobby. In my opinion it's something of an eyesore, and enclosing it would go some length toward improving the city hall facade. This, of course, is assuming that the decision to go with concrete and aluminum is absolute. Most of us are disappointed that the building will no longer have heritage status (or look like it does), but a modernized facade would be something of a silver lining.

(The current overhang look seems to hail from the same architectural generation as that hideous building at Main and Hess. I say this not knowing the second building's architect or exact date of construction).

[highwater]

It's no worse a money pit than the HCC. Talk to staff who work on some of the upper floors. Public Works staff spent several months working under plastic tarps to protect them from the leaking roof. At least City Hall is an architectural icon that is worth putting money into. HCC is a tacky, shoddy, '80's shopping mall that is not worth one penny of public money.

[coalminecanary]

I think you guys are misunderstanding the term money pit - as in an endless hole that you continually throw your money into with no return. The Main West reno budget is continually climbing and they haven't even STARTED yet. A leaky roof does not make a money pit, nor does cutting your losses and abandoning a potential money pit, even if it means one time penalties.

I can't go over this in depth again but Main West is horrible location for City hall, it is a drive-in location that completely divorces staff and councillors from the city. It keeps all of the city workers and decision makers at arms length from the downtown and all of good, bad and ugly things associated with it. It encourages sticking with the status quo which, by the way, has been killing the city for the last 50 years. To keep throwing money at this building is a sick joke. And the worst part is we aren't even getting a restoration anymore - it will end up no less an eyesore than the current HCC, and that's after we waste all that reno money!

HCC is an eyesore now, but putting half the cash slated for main west into HCC could give us something to actually be proud of, and something that's actually in the city, and more importantly, PART of it.

Here's a question - when we finish converting main west into a concrete bunker, and move all the councillors back over there, what the hell do you think is going to happen to city centre - a building which, mind you, is already a big stupid wall that separates the public centre of our city (gore) from the market, from the waterfront, from one of the most vibrant downtown business areas that we have (james north)?

It will never support mall retail again, and this is our chance to permanently convert it to something useful.

I know HCC is not the city's problem but if they took responsibility for it, they'd at least be taking a step toward tying together the gasping, isolated downtown areas that are trying to go it alone today.

[adam]

It's no worse a money pit than the HCC. Talk to staff who work on some of the upper floors. Public Works staff spent several months working under plastic tarps to protect them from the leaking roof. At least City Hall is an architectural icon that is worth putting money into. HCC is a tacky, shoddy, '80's shopping mall that is not worth one penny of public money.

Just think, in 40 years all those 80's tacky buildings will be highly sought after :haha:

[omro]

Just think, in 40 years all those 80's tacky buildings will be highly sought after :haha:

Or demolished ;)

[omro]

Having today just reread the article on Raise The Hammer (http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=810), I have to say that from a "benefits the downtown" point of view, I still think the idea of keeping the City Council in the City Mall has merits. Having all those people in the heart of the city, increasing foot traffic and spending money in the core and being more connected to the people, etc. It's a shame that, that idea seems to have been totally abandoned.

I still say the City Hall building would make a great museum or gallery or some sort of tourist attraction.

Who'd have thought that the old GLC building on the South Bank would end up being the London Aquarium!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/47/185775625_f83929de7c.jpg?v=0
Photo by Aeryn Sun on Flickr

[highwater]

Just think, in 40 years all those 80's tacky buildings will be highly sought after :haha:

OK, I know you're joking, but it needs to be said. City Hall is one of the finest examples of modernist architecture in the country. The HCC on the other hand, is a dime a dozen PoMo shopping mall. Now, if the HCC were an outstanding example of PoMo, I'd be the first to defend it, even though I personally can't stand PoMo, but it ain't. It's just crap, no matter how you slice it.

[coalminecanary]

And in the hands of the city, apparently city hall will never be brought back to glory. It's only chance is to be sold at a deep discount to someone who is given contractual obligation to do a proper restoration

HCC is no architectural wonder, but it is a good set of bones that can be built upon.

In my mind this is above architecture, above "city employees shopping at downtown stores", and above aesthetics.

This is about permanently connecting the decision makers to the heart of our city so that their future decisions are grounded in reality instead of suburban dreams.

[highwater]

In my mind this is above architecture, above "city employees shopping at downtown stores", and above aesthetics.

This is about permanently connecting the decision makers to the heart of our city so that their future decisions are grounded in reality instead of suburban dreams.

There is no guarantee this will happen. Councillors are unlikely to forget that they owe their jobs to their suburban constituents just because their offices are located on James.

Also, I don't think the long term health of our city is aided by the idea that the "heart of our city" is confined to a few blocks along James North. The heart of my city includes Main.

[omro]

Where were the City Hall staff spending their money, lunches, coffee, lunchtime shopping when they were located on Main?

Say a City Hall staffer needs to buy a new item of clothing. Where would they buy it?

If they are located in City Mall, would they be more inclined to pop into HCC or the shops nearby during lunch to buy the item of clothing?

If they are located in City Hall, would they think a lunchtime walk to JS was too much of a hassle and be more inclined to wait until the weekend and buy said item from an out of town Mall?

From a purely local economics point of view, is having the City Hall staff and their pocket money having a positive benefit on the shops in the downtown of Hamilton? If so, then they should stay were they are for as long as possible until sufficient new workers are attracted to the area to sustain things after they are relocated back to City Hall.

[coalminecanary]

There is no guarantee this will happen. Councillors are unlikely to forget that they owe their jobs to their suburban constituents just because their offices are located on James.

Also, I don't think the long term health of our city is aided by the idea that the "heart of our city" is confined to a few blocks along James North. The heart of my city includes Main.

The heart of my city also includes Main. But the problem is, 71 Main West is on the highway-side of downtown and there is no incentive for any city hall occupant to venture any further east in their day to day lives. As much as we'd like to think they would still hike into the core from "71", history has shown that they simply do not. They drive in, park in a dedicated parking lot, they don't pass a single solitary address - be it residential or commercial - on their way from the car to the office, and they rarely see any average citizens unless the citizen is seeking them out by going into city hall. This is a major problem.

I'm not saying that suburban councillors will forget their suburban roots or their suburban constituents. But by making them a physical part of our core, it becomes a lot harder for them to completely ignore the urban issues that, combined, probably form the biggest roadblock to our progression as a city.

I will continue to be vocal against a drive-thru city hall because it has turned hamilton into a drive-thru city, and I don't care how beautiful the building is, one structure is not worth more than our future.


From a purely local economics point of view, is having the City Hall staff and their pocket money having a positive benefit on the shops in the downtown of Hamilton?.

It definitely has been a benefit to many downtown businesses, but this micro-benefit is in my mind far outweighed by the macro-benefit of turning the heart of our city into a daily experience for all city hall workers rather than just a problem on paper that needs to be "somehow fixed" through theoretical ideas that seldom come to fruition and when they do - seldom work at all. How can these problems be fixed if they aren't experienced and understood by those trying to fix them?

[coalminecanary]

One example: 2-way conversions. Almost all of us agree that eliminating the one way freeways through downtown would be a huge step forward for Hamilton.

How can we ever expect 2-way conversions to be taken seriously by those who work at city hall (either councillors or staff) when their daily commute relies heavily on getting in to work on a one-way, and home on another one-way, and not a single minute of their life is spent walking on a sidewalk along either of these freeways?

[markbarbera]

I'd dispute the assertion that the location of City Hall staff at HCC has improved the retail and foodservice in the mall. I'd suggest the reloaction has not shown any significant impact on businesses in HCC. There certainly has not been new retail locating in HCC following the staff's relocation. In fact, two retailers in the food court have closed down since the staff moved in.

In response to Omro's query about where city hall staff had lunch prior to the temporary relocation, my own limited personal observation is that the vast majority brown-bag their lunches. City Hall also had a cafeteria that served typical lunch fare. For those looking for a fast-food fix, the JS food court was already the main recepient of that business given its relative ease of accessibility from 71 Main via Summers Lane. It would appear that lunch habits have not changed much during their temporary relocation to the mall.

[flar]

I'd dispute the assertion that the location of City Hall staff at HCC has improved the retail and foodservice in the mall. I'd suggest the reloaction has not shown any significant impact on businesses in HCC. There certainly has not been new retail locating in HCC following the staff's relocation. In fact, two retailers in the food court have closed down since the staff moved in.



I agree with this, I have not noticed increased activity at HCC or Jackson since the city moved in.

[coalminecanary]

Food vendors in the basement of HCC would beg to differ, I bet! The folks at mountain coffee have said they quite enjoy the city staff business :-)

Jackson square may not have received quite as great a benefit though. But from casual observation, Jackson appears to be plenty busy any time that I visit...

At any rate, my main argument is not about city staff's personal spending, it's about a sea change in mentality which would see them embracing our long-forgotten core.

[highwater]

I will continue to be vocal against a drive-thru city hall because it has turned hamilton into a drive-thru city,

Correlation, not causation.

and I don't care how beautiful the building is, one structure is not worth more than our future.

Just as you are unwilling to sacrifice "our future" (a bit of hyperbole, if you ask me) for City Hall, I am unwilling to sacrifice having an iconic building as our civic heart, for an interesting but unproven theory that a James St. location will somehow open the hearts and minds of Ferguson/Whitehead and their ilk.

In any case, this is all rather moot since it's not going to happen. So let's direct our energies to better integrating City Hall with it's environs. Making the forecourt a welcoming public gathering space, 2-way conversion of Main, LRT, and making the link between City Hall and JS more walkable and less forbidding.

[oldcoote]

I'd dispute the assertion that the location of City Hall staff at HCC has improved the retail and foodservice in the mall. I'd suggest the reloaction has not shown any significant impact on businesses in HCC. There certainly has not been new retail locating in HCC following the staff's relocation. In fact, two retailers in the food court have closed down since the staff moved in.

In response to Omro's query about where city hall staff had lunch prior to the temporary relocation, my own limited personal observation is that the vast majority brown-bag their lunches. City Hall also had a cafeteria that served typical lunch fare. For those looking for a fast-food fix, the JS food court was already the main recepient of that business given its relative ease of accessibility from 71 Main via Summers Lane. It would appear that lunch habits have not changed much during their temporary relocation to the mall.

I'm in HCC every day, and let me tell you, the change has been dramatic in terms of foot traffic. The food court is busier, but the retail hasn't followed in step, due likely to the dollar and discount stores that still proliferate the mall. Fairweather and La Senza are holding their own it seems.

[highwater]

I thought Fairweather was closing?

[coalminecanary]

Correlation, not causation.

Possibly, but not definitely. We have no way of proving whether the location of city hall at main west has caused even a small part of the deterioration of downtown. In no way do I mean to imply that it has been the main cause. But we also cannot prove that it hasn't, so should we just throw the concept out completely? I do not think that it is a stretch to state that, logically, the physical separation of councillors from their own downtown could have a negative effect on their ability to fully consider and understand downtown's needs.

Couple that with the recent "good news" happening downtown. York is closer than ever to getting its two way conversion. The Lister deal, though nowhere near ideal, appears to be on track. Unanimous support for an LRT push - a huge boon to Hamilton and an unheard of level of support from councillors who are typically not at all interested in urban issues.

These all could be coincidences but it is unfair to rule out the idea that councillors have a better understanding of the needs of our core through their being forced through circumstance to truly experience it.


Just as you are unwilling to sacrifice "our future" (a bit of hyperbole, if you ask me) for City Hall, I am unwilling to sacrifice having an iconic building as our civic heart, for an interesting but unproven theory that a James St. location will somehow open the hearts and minds of Ferguson/Whitehead and their ilk.

The way I look at it, the risk is greater in striving for status quo in lieu of change. City hall is not being restored in the hands of the city. What was once an icon will become a joke, and a money pit, and for what? Here is an opportunity to a) Fight for true restoration through partnership with another public entity - post secondary, museum, etc. and b) at least try to change the minds of Ferg/White rather than just accepting that we have to live with their suburban standpoints forever.

As far as being unproven, city hall was located at that exact spot during the heyday of hamilton's downtown activity. Again, it may not have been the direct cause of that activity, but it was part of the true urban fabric back then, which is where city hall should be. 71 simply is not a part of that fabric.

In any case, this is all rather moot since it's not going to happen. So let's direct our energies to better integrating City Hall with it's environs. Making the forecourt a welcoming public gathering space, 2-way conversion of Main, LRT, and making the link between City Hall and JS more walkable and less forbidding.

I don't think it's over yet. Stranger things have happened. The bill keeps rising while the economy crashes. We may reach a tipping point where the entire renovation comes under fire as completely frivolous.

The forecourt at city hall has been welcoming and attractive for quite some time. No one used it then, so what will make them use it in the future? A fountain? A rink? Perhaps. Or we could integrate Gore - historically the true public gathering space in Hamilton and a space that is actually used daily by hundreds of citizens - into a redesigned hall at HCC.

As I said, moving the city back into "71" is not going to get them on the 2-way bandwagon any faster, since their daily convenience depends on that freeway-style link to the 403. How long can we wait for this 2 way conversion, meanwhile making HCC permanent can happen immediately?

I am open to your ideas for making the walk downtown so non-forbidding that staff will actually take the leap. But apart from tearing down all of the concrete boxes we've built and replacing them with a restored streetwall, I think you'd have a hard time doing so. There might as well be a moat around city hall, and council will have no incentive to change that once they are settled comfortably in their freshly poured concrete bunker.

I am trying to provide a functional, positive idea here - one that will save money instead of cost money and one that could actually proivide quick, cheap benefits to the city and help spark all of the other projects that we all desperately want to see move forward. It's not a magic bullet but it could be a catalyst for some of these ideas that you quote in your last paragraph. Is there any negative aspect other than the fact that chambers will no longer be in the iconic building we've lived with for the past half century? Can't we build a new iconic building? And at the same time, give the 71 main west icon a true chance at renewal?

[Millstone]

I'm in HCC every day, and let me tell you, the change has been dramatic in terms of foot traffic. The food court is busier, but the retail hasn't followed in step, due likely to the dollar and discount stores that still proliferate the mall. Fairweather and La Senza are holding their own it seems.

Fairweather is closing. JS has seen a few new businesses. HCC is losing the junk stores it has clung onto for so long. Even that new one by the lotto booth had closing discounts within the first month of operation.

[adam]

I'm with Highwater on the city hall location issue Correlation does not imply causation. These are all symptoms of the same problem. Counsellors who are passionate about the suburbs in a one-track kind of way are never going to be good for the downtown no matter where they work.

If the forecourt gets a skating rink and we can cut down a lane or two of traffic on that section of Main St by adding a parking lane and carpool and/or bike lanes, then we have a chance to integrate city hall with the downtown. Nobody will use the forecourt if it is next to the current highway (actually its wider than many sections of the 403 right now)

[geoff's two cents]

I can sympathize with both coalminecanary and highwater. In fact, it would be great if the city had kept its original location in the core, in which case this discussion would not be necessary at all.

At the end of the day, however, I'm with highwater on this one. The city hall is where it is, and at the end of the day, it would be most expedient to work with that. The more unanimity there is on the need to keep city hall respectable as a symbol of civic pride (ie. limestone and steel instead of concrete and aluminum; fountains, an ice rink, etc.), I think the more action we can expect from councilors. Ultimately, abandoning the existing building for something completely different is something that is not going to fly with the rest of the city, and we don't want to end up with a disgusting compromise (ie. a renovated HCC interior with an unrenovated exterior) as a result. The need to improve the existing structure is something everyone in the city can understand, while councilors might have a harder time justifying a "poor city"'s expenditure of dollars on something that opponents will inevitably tout as superfluous.

Why not give this cloud a silver lining? There's a chance that a revived city hall forecourt (complete with cafe, fountains, some decent landscaping, maybe even an alteration to its hideous rear parking and maintenance set-up - though I understand that this is not on the current agenda) will have positive spin-offs for the area across the street, especially if Main is ultimately traffic-calmed with street-side parking, wider sidewalks, LRT - and, hell, why not, even a proper cross-walk directly across from the main entrance. Again, the sooner we, Hamilton's transit intelligentsia (in residence or expat), cultivate a sense of unanimity on the need to improve this area, the better our hope that city leaders will act decisively and to good effect. As highwater put it, my Hamilton includes that hideous stretch of Main - an area, incidentally, that is rife with empty lots and ripe for redevelopment, while still being close enough to the historic core to count for something.

Vancouver might serve as a useful precedent here. The current city hall was relocated far from downtown (much farther than its Hamiltonian counterpart) in the mid to late 1930s. Given that this was a city that came of age with the automobile, this was no doubt a tribute to the burgeoning suburbs south of the city. From pictures I've seen, it truly was the boonies at the time it was built. Today, however, the Cambie city hall is right in the middle of a vibrant Broadway commercial and entertainment district. Given the much closer proximity of the Hamilton city hall to the historic city core, there seems to be that much more chance that, if revitalized, it will positively impact the automobile-dominated wasteland around it.

Hamilton's current facility was - make no mistake - built with the SOV commuter in mind: good roadway (or freeway) connections to the suburbs, a giant parking lot, and an exaggerated footprint better suited to the sticks than a densely-built, nineteenth-century downtown. I see no reason, however, why this cannot be changed. At any rate, the current predicament presents an excellent opportunity to do so.

How's that for optimism?:D

[SteelTown]

If you look at the new Engineering Building at Mac facing Main St you'll see cement looking like marble facade on the main floor. It's actually not that bad and it's smooth and kinda has a shine to it. This is not to show support for cement over limestone though.

[coalminecanary]

I appreciate the optimism about Main St revitalization, but in the end, all of those traffic calming, two-way, transit and pedestrian improvements - if they happen at all - are years down the road if not decades.To make it worse, putting the council back into that ivory tower and once again isolating them from the people downtown is not going to speed up their desire to change that street.

This still doesn't answer the question of what will happen to gore, jackson and james north when the HCC is essentially emptied of all life in one fell swoop. I'm curious about how you see this unfolding for these spaces?

[coalminecanary]

I'm with Highwater on the city hall location issue Correlation does not imply causation. These are all symptoms of the same problem. Counsellors who are passionate about the suburbs in a one-track kind of way are never going to be good for the downtown no matter where they work.

This is akin to giving up. So, we send them back to business as usual or we can expose them directly to urban matters and hope that a few slivers of light get through their blinders... That is my optimism.

[coalminecanary]

The city hall is where it is, and at the end of the day, it would be most expedient to work with that. [...] Ultimately, abandoning the existing building for something completely different is something that is not going to fly with the rest of the city, and we don't want to end up with a disgusting compromise (ie. a renovated HCC interior with an unrenovated exterior) as a result.

I guess my problem is we wil lend up dropping 100 million on this building and end up with something shinier, yet architecturally meaningless - and in the end, it will be the same place as it always was. That's a lot of money for very very little return. Or we can spend the same amount - or likely less - and try something new. Get in a decent architect - maybe D&S (the camco guys) and turn the bones of HCC into something fantastic that we can be proud of, not to mentio take an acrtive role for a change in trying to revitalize the core. The only reason this idea wouldn't fly with the rest of the city is if it cost more - which it doesn't have to and if done properly, won't.

[SteelTown]

This still doesn't answer the question of what will happen to gore, jackson and james north when the HCC is essentially emptied of all life in one fell swoop. I'm curious about how you see this unfolding for these spaces?

If you think HCC is great for a new City Hall and McMaster should take over the current City Hall why not reverse this and have McMaster take over HCC instead.

[block43]

I guess my problem is we wil lend up dropping 100 million on this building and end up with something shinier, yet architecturally meaningless -

I disagree that the building is architecturally meaningless.

[FairHamilton]

This still doesn't answer the question of what will happen to gore, jackson and james north when the HCC is essentially emptied of all life in one fell swoop. I'm curious about how you see this unfolding for these spaces?

I think the move of those people will be at least somewhat offset by the people who'll be in the Lister Block across the street.

[adam]

If you look at the new Engineering Building at Mac facing Main St you'll see cement looking like marble facade on the main floor. It's actually not that bad and it's smooth and kinda has a shine to it. This is not to show support for cement over limestone though.

Cement can look just as good as limestone if it has a high quality aggregate. If the city is using limestone aggregate for City Hall they sure haven't told anyone. They are trying to save as much money as possible. It will end up looking like the cement on Hamilton Place instead. :(

[geoff's two cents]

I guess my problem is we wil lend up dropping 100 million on this building and end up with something shinier, yet architecturally meaningless - and in the end, it will be the same place as it always was. That's a lot of money for very very little return. Or we can spend the same amount - or likely less - and try something new. Get in a decent architect - maybe D&S (the camco guys) and turn the bones of HCC into something fantastic that we can be proud of, not to mentio take an acrtive role for a change in trying to revitalize the core. The only reason this idea wouldn't fly with the rest of the city is if it cost more - which it doesn't have to and if done properly, won't.

It would be a work of genius, indeed, if HCC could be turned into something as iconic as the current vacant structure. It would also be something if McMaster expressed any interest whatsoever in undertaking any expense to renovate said structure (my gut feeling is that it will just sit empty, and maybe eventually be torn down if the city doesn't use it). If not for these "if"s, I must say that I'm generally in favor of a downtown city hall, and can sympathize with everyone who wants it there. The devil, of course, is in the details. . .:(

[omro]

OK, they've committed to paying these contractors some money if they cancel the contract. If they pay them this sum of money, the same sum of money they would have lost, could the contractors actually do some work with that money rather than it just line their pockets as a penalty fee?

Do they still need to actually complete all the renovations? Could they not scale them back for the time being? Could they just say, "OK, contractor guys and gals, here's some money, do the work to the outside, make sure the building is externally maintained to withstand the elements and we can deal with the innards another day?"

The City Hall building does look like it's off the Thunderbirds. It could perhaps be leased to an Organisation committed to Global Domination? I still say it could be used as a public building to encourage tourism of some kind. A national gallery, museum or something totally off the wall, but something that makes people say, we must visit Hamilton and see "that".

The staff could then stay at City Mall for a longer period of time, secure in the knowledge that the City Hall isn't going to fall down due to neglect (not uncommon in Hamilton it seems :P )

To be honest, I'm not entirely fussed where the Council are located. I'm sure that some of them are out of touch enough that it won't matter where they cast their votes. What I am fussed about is whether or not the removal of their staff from City Mall in the near(ish) future will damage the local economy in these fagile times, which could last long beyond the renovation timescale. These people have relatively secure and reasonably well paid jobs, am sure some of them are making purchases in their breaktimes or lunch hours or flextimes that are benefitting the local businesses in some way.

Perhaps there needs to be a thread (is there one?) for uses for City Mall once the City Hall people move out of it (if they ever do)? Seeing as everyone thinks that it's ugly 80s crappy architecture, as is a lot of the JS area, perhaps a good bit of tactical demo? ;)

[coalminecanary]

I disagree that the building is architecturally meaningless.

That is not what I meant - I mean by the time they are done cutting corners it will only barely resemble the original architect's vision. The Historical retoration group has already backed out, so you can be sure that wherever a few yards of concrete can be used to cut a corner, it will. We will dump a lot of money into this and will only get a newer building in return - not a restored one - and one that is less architecturally and historically important than what we started with.

If you think HCC is great for a new City Hall and McMaster should take over the current City Hall why not reverse this and have McMaster take over HCC instead.

Because my main argument is that we need to prevent our city hall from offering an easy "escape" from downtown issues for non-downtown councillors. Main West physically encourages councillors to drive in and drive out without stepping foot on any public street. Plus, putting city hall back where it originally was and where it always should have been. Plus I don't believe McMaster actually cares. Maybe we should court another school - Ryerson?

I think the move of those people will be at least somewhat offset by the people who'll be in the Lister Block across the street.

It may be as far as number of employees in the area - except aht some of the lister employees will just be moving across the street from the right house I believe.

I don't mean "what happens to HCC" in terms of number of employees in the area, what concerns me is emptying HCC and leaving only a half dozen tenants, resulting in the building being mothballed or worse, torn down. This is a case where hte city could act as a good urban citizen and take a key block downtown and actively develop it into something beneficial to the entire core.

[bornagainbiking]

I used to walk the downtown daily and used the gym in JS. I also used to cut thru HCC. I hear some say here that there is no real increse in traffic. Well try walking gthe streets other than 9-5.
I used to see the rummies and smell the Listerine at 6 in the morning. The lower food court empty and the rummies had control of the tables. ALL the concessions in that area were hanging by a thread, and there were very few. So you tell me there is no advantage absolute BULL.........
Again is it so bad that the civil servants or public servants and that include the alderpeople have to mix with the common folk. They complain about a parking spot, well like everyone else like the nurses @ HGH pay for one. Ther are deals down there.
HCC/JS is a mall a meeting place.
The most unusual twist to this is that recently someone mentioned that it would be a PLUS to have the open area in HCC used as a atrium or courtyard which is already there as well as an outside patio on top of JS.
And some nitwit suggest DUH maybe we can build an enclosed courtyard at Cityhall.
People can combine a trip to HCC but the City hall has NOTHING there for people other than city business.
So with a farmers market, movie theatre, food courts(s), library and gym add a food store and the staff could grocery shop at lunch.
I realize HCC may be dead but it just makes so much sense.
It will bring condos as you would have a version of a Limeridge Mall near the transportation hub.
Maybe fix up the city hall to basics and sell it so there would be no penalty just a redefined goal for the contractors.
The Liberals just cancelled the chopper deal and it did cost plenty. Have the reno go towards what ever the new tenant(s) wants built or set up to order.
I know this would be a stretch but make the City Hall the Transportation Hub. Route all the buses out of the two level parking lot, between Hunter and Main, Bay and james. Just think next to the Go station.. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Rent the upper offices (HUB) to Mcmaster or School board overflow.
Heck more Condos
I just thought of something, if they move back to City Hall and build the glass enclosure it would just act as another filter or barrier to separate the citizens from the public servants, who would benefit and gain the most from this. Tax dollars to indulge the very people who serve the masses. Starting to sound like "one flew over the cuckoos nest".
Nice quiet indoor picnic area with a moot for staff to brown bag it. No business for downtown. Drive to work, enter City Dome, go home....................

[thistleclub]

You want a rink? Look down the road a ways.

Mississauga civic square revamp hits 'right notes' (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/577752)

A key feature is an expanded skating rink worthy of the GTA's second-largest city; not the tiny one that exists today, which McCallion complains gets quickly overloaded.

The concept also attempts to link what is essentially two squares today: the one in front of city hall with the rinky-dink rink and the other beside the Mississauga Public Library. Today, they're separated not only by City Centre Dr., but also different grade levels.

The goal would be to bring them to almost the same grade so the street could be closed off for major events and both squares turned into one grand one. Other features of the design include a large open lawn, an extended art gallery, a redeveloped amphitheatre, a café on the square, a permanent concert and event stage, a marketplace and a glorified signature entrance to city hall – not the hodgepodge of nondescript entrances that exists today.

Those "tiny" and "rinky-dink" rink comments smart a bit (if my estimates are correct, it's about a third larger than the size of the one Hamilton has proposed) but there's a familiar note:

...it's unclear who will pay.

Mississauga has committed to coughing up $10 million to $14 million, but the rest, council and staff hope, will be covered through the traditional one-third-each funding from Ottawa and Queen's Park.

Granted, a huge parking lot may have more potential than the shoulder of a highway. But still, this seems like another case of not misunderestimating Mississauga. Our pols could learn a thing or three about making the best of a bad situation.

Here's a Backgrounder (http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/Civic_Square_Backgrounder.doc.pdf) on and Concept Diagram (http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/Concept_Diagram.pdf) of Mississauga's Civic Square proposal (both PDF).

[SteelTown]

City Hall Renovation Wow-Factor Still Alive
Ken Mann
2/2/2009

A "wow-factor" addition to the city hall renovations is still alive.

Hamilton's public work's committee has voted 5-to-3 in favour of spending two million dollars to build a glassed-in area of the forecourt under council chambers. The project now goes to city council for final approval.

The idea is to create an all-season gathering place.

Supporters add that they would pay for the enhancement with federal infrastructure funding.

[FairHamilton]

The idea is to create an all-season gathering place.

First of all, who do they forsee gathering at City Hall? Sports teams, general everyday people looking to kill a few hours, people protesting, wine & cheese soirees? Who?

Supporters add that they would pay for the enhancement with federal infrastructure funding.

I would have preferred they'd have used that money for proper building cladding (marble or limestone).........

[omro]

I would have preferred they'd have used that money for proper building cladding (marble or limestone).........

It does seem quite a slap in the face, especially to those who actually campaigned and pledged money.

Add to the fact about all the fuss about "today's economic climate" and the entire project seems like a frivolous waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere. Enclose the forecourt in the future if it really is something they want to do. They don't have to do it now.

[matt602]

... and for half a mil more, they could have faced the building in limestone, for a much more effective "wow effect".

[flar]

This city is so badly mismanaged it's not even funny.