[Jon Dalton]

Seniors residence in that area, seems like a tough sell.

[DC83]

Seniors residence in that area, seems like a tough sell.

Au Contraire... there is a giant bingo hall 1 block away! CHA-CHING! hahaha

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1322/845950886_3ecd8eb56e_o.jpg

[SteelTown]

Bringing in any residence to the core is a good thing in my opinion, I haven't said anything against the affordable housing project for St Deny's. As long the architecture is good. These residences will increase the pressure for a grocery store, perhaps a tenant for the Lister Block's arcade.

[DC83]

^^ I agree that we can't be too picky with the type of development downtown... but come on! MORE retirement? There's already the ginormous First Place Bldg at King/Wellington, the LIUNA built one on Market/Hess, the one at James/Augusta.

IMO, we need to attract young professionals to our core. These are the ones with disposable income who are going to shop in our shops, eat in our indy restaurants, and involve themselves in cultural events. Old people generally don't have a disposable income at all. Their pressence downtown would be nothing more than just that... a pressence. Young Professionals will get involved and make Downtown what we all want/need it to be!

[HAMRetrofit]

There really is not that much retirement accommodation downtown Hamilton. The city should try to attract all demographic groups especially seniors who will benefit from its urban environment that accommodates pedestrians and walkability. The seniors population has a higher disposable income, which will be a boost to retail amenities. In addition their presence signifies that the community is safe.

Yorkville is by no coincidence home to about 5 to 6 retirement homes. These seniors have spawned Whole Foods and other high end restaurants. Their presence is important and should not be discriminated against (these amenities have attracted urban professionals to the area as well). Over the next twenty years the senior population is going to swell. This is the reality that our generations are going to have to deal with. We should give them the most dignified living arrangements that we can and the downtown is a reasonable place to start. Better there then in gated communities outside of town.

[SteelTown]

Do we need more affordable housing for the core? Tons of it in the core.

I agree we sould be spreading out affordable housing projects and retirement houses around the city but the core has the best transit service in the city. We'll probably see tons and tons of more retirement housing projects in the future anyways as the first generation of baby boomers are starting to retire now. Which isn't a bad thing because that will make more high rises.

[flar]

All the seniors are moving to Dundas!

[raisethehammer]

flar...totally off-topic, but holy smokes, your photo tours are just getting better and better.
awesome work!!

[Jon Dalton]

I believe we need all of it. We need retail, housing, and probably most of all, jobs. Each is an equally important component of a successful downtown. There's no point pushing one over the other. We have vacant storefronts, half-filled condo towers and half-filled office towers to populate. I would be equally excited about either office jobs (that aren't phone centres) or high quality condos in the Lister Block. What we don't need any more of is low income housing. Some areas around the core have the cheapest rents in the city and the strip of James adjacent to the Lister Block is mostly cheap, low end apartments.

[SteelTown]

Lister Decision Possible On Wednesday
Feb, 26 2008 - 5:50 PM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - The fate of the Lister Block is back on the agenda this week.

City Councillors meet on Wednesday morning, to decide whether to accept an offer to purchase the heritage building from LIUNA once it has been restored.

Councillors will be recieving a peer review of a proposal that LIUNA made two weeks ago.

That proposal estimated that with borrowing costs factored in, it would cost 32 million dollars over 20 years to buy the symbol of downtown decay.

Mayor Eisenberger is hopeful that the project "is a go". He has called the Lister Block a "beacon" for whether we are on the path of downtown rehabilitation.

[Goldfinger]

I believe we need all of it. We need retail, housing, and probably most of all, jobs. Each is an equally important component of a successful downtown. There's no point pushing one over the other. We have vacant storefronts, half-filled condo towers and half-filled office towers to populate. I would be equally excited about either office jobs (that aren't phone centres) or high quality condos in the Lister Block. What we don't need any more of is low income housing. Some areas around the core have the cheapest rents in the city and the strip of James adjacent to the Lister Block is mostly cheap, low end apartments.

Well Said, exactly! :tup:

[matt602]

ruh-roh...

Purchasing Lister Block is no deal, report finds

Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator

(Feb 27, 2008)

The city's cost of buying the Lister Block has jumped again as council sits down today to decide the fate of the downtown landmark.

An outside consultant estimates it would cost the city $38.60 gross a square foot -- $5 higher than the last proposal -- to buy the restored building. The price includes a $7-million grant from the province.

The deal would cost taxpayers an extra $1.2 million a year compared to rent at other city offices.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger, who was ready to move on the purchase two weeks ago, called the revised cost "daunting." But he said he wants to hear from staff before deciding.

Last month, council balked at paying $37 a square foot to lease the building. The deal was revived when owner LIUNA and partner Hi-Rise promised it would be cheaper for the city to buy.

The developers' price of $25 million hasn't changed, but the consultant advised the city it underbudgeted for operating costs and tenant improvements. The lease cost would also be higher now.

The new square foot cost is higher than the lease cost that council rejected, but does offer the city an asset in the end, noted Eisenberger. The building's undepreciated value in 2031 would be $15 million.

Councillor Bob Bratina said it doesn't make sense to pay nearly $34 million for the building. "It's unacceptable. We can't justify that. The numbers speak for themselves."

[SteelTown]

Haha and they thought Liuna was gouging them. You know what's next if this deal is rejected.....a demolition permit.

[Jon Dalton]

That's shit news to start the day with. So, bring on the wrecking ball?

[SteelTown]

Councillors debate Lister Block proposal

Feb, 27 2008 - 11:00 AM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - The fate of the Lister Block restoration is back on the discussion table this hour.

Hamilton politicians are meeting to decide whether to accept an offer to purchase the heritage building from LIUNA, once it's been restored.

Councillors have been told the purchase will cost the city about 34-million dollars over 20 years.

That works out to about 38-dollars per square foot, about twice what the city currently pays to house staff elsewhere.

On the other hand, a consultant is recommending that the city move forward on the purchase.

[SteelTown]

Lister Project Still Alive But Losing Steam


Feb, 27 2008 - 2:30 PM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - Supporting is waning, in regards to a proposal to restore a high-profile symbol of downtown decay.

Hamilton politicians have now voted to proceed with the possible purchase of a restored Lister Block, only if they get the developer to guarantee construction of a pair of residential towers behind it on James Street North.

Councillor Chad Collins says it's "now into the realm of the absurd".

Councillor Brad Clark argues that even if the developer comes in with a bond, it could later write it off as "the cost of doing business".

Clark also describes the proposed purchase of the Lister as "probably the most irresponsible financial decision Council could make".

The latest figures say the cost of buying space for staff in the heritage building would be 38 dollars per square foot, twice what the city currently pays at other downtown locations.   For taxpayers, that works out to an extra 1.3 million dollars in leasing costs each year.

[raisethehammer]

for petes sake...this is insane.

[flar]

Why can't they figure this out? :hell:

[raisethehammer]

that's the problem...they (LIUNA) have figured it out. A looooong time ago.
They're sitting in their office right now popping open the bubbly as they see the city backed into a corner that only has 3 possible results:

1. LIUNA gets a ton of taxpayer money
2. LIUNA gets a ton of taxpayer money
3. Downtown continues to suffer as the hostage

[SteelTown]

Finally the city and Liuna has reached a deal. The independent consultant estimates proved Liuna isn't gouging the city. We all know it cost a lot more money to renovate old buildings than to rebuild. Good to see this issue finally resolved even if you disagree with this process, it's been a long 4-year process. Any other developer would have been fed up years ago. Back in the beginning with just realcity and me the only forumers around we talked about Lister Block.

I like how the city made the deal based on having twin residential towers.

[flar]

^^ it's not a done deal yet, SteelTown. That why I had to include the :hell:

[raisethehammer]

Finally the city and Liuna has reached a deal. The independent consultant estimates proved Liuna isn't gouging the city. We all know it cost a lot more money to renovate old buildings than to rebuild. Good to see this issue finally resolved even if you disagree with this process, it's been a long 4-year process. Any other developer would have been fed up years ago. Back in the beginning with just realcity and me the only forumers around we talked about Lister Block.

I like how the city made the deal based on having twin residential towers.


get ready for two of the cheapest, ugliest commie-blocks you've ever seen. 20+ stories of glorious stucco....

[HAMRetrofit]

Is this the final deal or is this just sarcasm?

[raisethehammer]

if you're talking to me, it's just sarcasm. I have no clue.
I've actually stopped following the news lately other than what I read on here.
It's too friggin screwed up.

[coalminecanary]

how about some picketing outside of liuna building.. who's in?

we can be the citizens' regional union of hamilton

[HAMRetrofit]

^ I don't know if that is a good idea. Union activity that has not been granted approval from the godfathers can get you wacked. :haha:

[coalminecanary]

ok then we won't be a union, we will be a coalition

[raisethehammer]

let's be a local citizens 'mob'. Lol

[Jon Dalton]

March 7th is fast approaching....
Personally I don't consider $25,000,000 for a place of pride in the downtown to be a waste of taxpayers money. People are so quick to to criticize but wouldn't blink an eye for the 1/4 million spent on an expressway downtown residents have no use for.

[SteelTown]

City eyes Lister deal pegged to seniors' homes

February 28, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator

The city is continuing negotiations to buy the Lister Block, but wants a guarantee there will be a second phase to justify the high price tag.

Councillors voted 10-6 to keep the deal alive after the cost per square foot jumped to $38.60 -- nearly double what the city pays to lease elsewhere.

"I'm not prepared to throw in the towel," said Councillor Maria Pearson.

The city was supposed have a deal hashed out by March 15 to receive $7 million in provincial funding. It will now request an extension.

Council asked staff to report back on the economic spinoffs of buying the restored Lister Block to see how much it offsets the extra cost. In the meantime, councillors also want to see a binding agreement that private developers will build two high-end senior homes behind the building.

Warren Green, president of Hi-Rise which is partnering with LIUNA on the Lister project, said the developers have been in discussions with Kingsway Arms to build a hotel-like retirement centre there.

Green told councillors yesterday he couldn't guarantee the second phase because financing is always uncertain. But after the meeting, he said as long as the province extends its funding promise he'll try to finalize a deal within eight months.

Six councillors opposed continuing negotiations, arguing the deal is just too rich for the city to afford.

Councillor Chad Collins said council is "only delaying the inevitable."

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said he's willing to support it even without the guarantee because "I personally believe it will be a catalyst."

[raisethehammer]

2 seniors homes???? what the.....

[HAMRetrofit]

Someone should be making a documentary of this saga it is a real soap opera. I think it would make an interesting film.

[realcity]

I knew those two towers were just a tease. The city asked for a guarantee to the towers Green said would be built and he refused to guarantee it.

[FairHamilton]

2 seniors homes???? what the.....

What, you don't think that's "sexy" enough? :)

[RePinion]

One might be inclined to say that any development in the core is good development, but I'm sorry, I think this is rubbish.

I was reluctantly prepared to accept one seniors residence alongside a conventional condo tower, but now just two seniors homes? This is pathetic. What a terrible signal to send to potential outsiders coming to King William expecting to find a hip vibrant area of bars, clubs and restaurants. It's such a terrible sign of a city's decline when all you see in the core are the aged and infirm.

Further, the Kingsway Arms homes are only low to mid price point communities, meaning that these seniors likely won't have much disposable income to spread throughout surrounding businesses. All the rich seniors who could potentially support local restaurants and such are in the higher end retirement centres in Dundas.

What a disappointment. I think the Lister should go ahead without the seniors homes.

[raisethehammer]

I agree....I don't mind seeing seniors homes downtown, but this area is supposed to become a hotspot of nightlife and new retail.
We need hip lofts and condos in the King William area. Not more seniors homes.

[DC83]

What a disappointment. I think the Lister should go ahead without the seniors homes.

Amen

I agree....I don't mind seeing seniors homes downtown, but this area is supposed to become a hotspot of nightlife and new retail.
We need hip lofts and condos in the King William area. Not more seniors homes.

... and Amen!!!

I agree having more people living downtown making it 'look' busier is great. However, we already have a great 9-5 crowd. Stinson also said how he was so surprised how busy downtown Hamilton is.

The main point here in that Lister will revive King William which is an awesome street with fantastic urban 'bones'. Seniors will not contribute to this. Sorry. They generally have no disposible income, and usually hibernate & go to sleep quite early.

If we want to revive King William & this stretch of James N, we need to market lofts, work-live units & condos to young, hip professionals looking for that Urban feel. THEY will spend their money on local businesses, THEY will be out at the bars, clubs, cafes after 9pm (when the seniors' are in bed) creating a great 'after-hours' buzz in this hood.

More people downtown is a great thing, absolutely, 100%. However, we also need these people to spend LOTS of money with area businesses if we seriously want to attract more, 'bigger' name businesses into the area. Seniors just can't do it... no matter how many towers they build to house them.

[raisethehammer]

Delta Bingo would be a-rockin that's for sure....lol

[RePinion]

^ That place needs - NEEDS - to be turned into something better! I just can't think of anything viable in the near future to fill that large somewhat downtrodden space. The Kresge building is OK but it's not one of downtown's real gems and I suspect any new development will find more suitable premises before Delta hightails it.

[coalminecanary]

put condos in the lister. why is this so hard for the city to understand? why don't THEY suggest it to liuna? we all know liuna won't budge unless they get guaranteed city tenants, but the city should be saying "look guys, get a move on and develop this into something money making on your own because we are starting to enforce property standards immediately"

[RePinion]

if only the damn building would be listed they would have a pretty strong case for expropriation - and they would only end up paying market value for it, which would just be a few mil! The city wouldn't want to piss of LIUNA though ...

[SteelTown]

Falling debris from building hits passerby

March 04, 2008
Nicole MacIntyre
The Hamilton Spectator

A pedestrian was hit by falling debris from a derelict building beside the Lister Block on Saturday night.

The man was hit on his shoulder by a piece of aluminum, but was not injured. He called police, who notified the city.

A building inspector came out to investigate the complaint at 52 James Street North, but didn't find more material at risk of falling.

The building, which is owned by LIUNA, has been part of proposals to revitalize the corner. Vice-president Joe Mancinelli said the union has taken steps to ensure the buildings are safe, but they continue to fall apart in winter.

"The longer we take to renovate, the higher the risk," he said, urging the city to finalize a deal.

The city is waiting to see if the province will extend its March 15 deadline for $7 million in Lister funding. "We are certainly considering the extension, but we're waiting for more information from the city," said MPP Ted McMeekin.

[Millstone]

Falling debris from building hits passerby

March 04, 2008
Nicole MacIntyre
The Hamilton Spectator

A pedestrian was hit by falling debris from a derelict building beside the Lister Block on Saturday night.

The man was hit on his shoulder by a piece of aluminum, but was not injured. He called police, who notified the city.

A building inspector came out to investigate the complaint at 52 James Street North, but didn't find more material at risk of falling.

The building, which is owned by LIUNA, has been part of proposals to revitalize the corner. Vice-president Joe Mancinelli said the union has taken steps to ensure the buildings are safe, but they continue to fall apart in winter.

"The longer we take to renovate, the higher the risk," he said, urging the city to finalize a deal.

The city is waiting to see if the province will extend its March 15 deadline for $7 million in Lister funding. "We are certainly considering the extension, but we're waiting for more information from the city," said MPP Ted McMeekin.

I love how he feels his responsibility to public safety hinges on selling the building first. What a crook.

[FairHamilton]

Vice-president Joe Mancinelli said the union has taken steps to ensure the buildings are safe, but they continue to fall apart in winter.

"The longer we take to renovate, the higher the risk," he said, urging the city to finalize a deal.

Seems to me he just put the risk of the building causing additional personal injury on the city's shoulders. LOL, LIUNA will position just about anything to get the city to move on this redevelopment.

LIUNA seems to be a one trick pony, with the Lister Block - City largesse, or nothing.....

The city needs to start begin enforcing property standards and begin issuing fines to those who perpetuate derelict buildings in Hamilton.

[DC83]

The city needs to start begin enforcing property standards and begin issuing fines to those who perpetuate derelict buildings in Hamilton.

... then maybe these loser slumlords will finally sell their buildings to people who actually give a damn!

What happened to that proposed bylaw anyway? Didn't council decide they needed "more information"?

Well if buildings crumbling onto passers-by isn't enough proof that this Property Standards bylaw needs to be passed, I don't know what is!?

[raisethehammer]

what an idiot this guy is.
"its the citys fault that stuff is falling off OUR building". yea ok, slum landlord.

[coalminecanary]

this is getting really sad

can everyone please write to the spec even just a short letter saying that if LIUNA owns a building, it's deterioration is 100% their problem and not the city's

if enough people write letters in a similar vein, they'll be more likely to print at least one

the lower LIUNA's image is in the citizens' eyes, the less the city will back them up. we need to make everyone understand how dirty liuna is playing with us.

UGH

[RePinion]

^ Agreed. LIUNA typifies the way this city has been abused over the years by developers. Its dirty dealings must be brought to light and publicly censured. I will certainly be writing a letter to the Spec and hope everyone else will too.

We are being held hostage here and it is absolutely disgusting.

[coalminecanary]

BTW, I know we have been kind of bashing on the spec for the letters they choose to print but I have to make one point.. You MUST include your full name, address and contact phone number or else not only will they not print your letter, they won't even reply to you.

The last letter i wrote RE lister, I forgot that info--then remembered later in the day and re sent it with my full address. I got a reply almost right away thanking me for resending with contact info. Then they printed it.

I imagine they get a ton of email every day, and just don't have the time to reply to it all, even if it's just to say "please send us your contact info".

So if you write to them, include it all for them and make their job easier and they'll be more likely to print it I think....

[FairHamilton]

I'm in agreement with writing letters to the editor at The Spec.

Now what do others think about cc'ing the mayor and your individual councillor? That way even if not published by The Spec it gets a message to a person who represents you.

http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/CityandGovernment/YourElectedOfficials/CityCouncillors/

Can it hurt? Can it do good?

[RePinion]

^ I certainly don't see how it can hurt. I think we need to switch the tone of the Lister story so that it does not seem to be a conflict merely between the city administration and LIUNA. The unfortunate events reported today are simply very concrete proof of the fact that neglect of the Lister has been harmful to the community at large. We need to change this from a story about quibling officials into one about the citizens of Hamilton, which in reality it is.

[coalminecanary]

LIUNA is the one making it out to be a conflict -- but their story is that it's "the city versus progress", "the city versus common sense", "the city versus us", "the city versus everyone"... meanwhile it's LIUNA who is holding us hostage with the lister. So you are right, the real conflict is LIUNA versus the citizens because their crappy actions (or non actions) are affecting all of us now.

[RePinion]

I've never really been able to buy into LIUNA's story of the city holding the project back. I questioned their involvement when they bought the Lister to begin with, foreseeing exactly this sort of prevarication.

LIUNA has not done anything to the real benefit of the city of Hamilton. Sure they did a nice reno on the CN Station, but we all know the city would have been better off if it had just been left a train station, something which is now an impossibility.

This latest incident just confirms in my mind that the union and its leaders are scum.

[coalminecanary]

Get this, they are gonna publish my letter!

[DC83]

^^ Sweet! Awesome, Coalmine! Hopefully everyone will catch on w/ how much of crooks LIUNA are being now! When's it going to be published? Tomorrow's edition (Thu, March 6)?

[coalminecanary]

if i told you, and my offline and online identities were linked, i'd have to kill you ;-)

You'll probably be able to figure it out as soon as you see it anyway :-)

[highwater]

Saw your letter, Coalmine. Well done. Of course the Spec had to 'balance' it with a letter bashing the city. Ah well, two steps forward...

[coalminecanary]

Ya I noticed that. I really want to respond to that letter but they probably won't print me that soon. I'm really sick of the blame shifting. Putting the blame on council when they are trying their best is working against the city. When outside investors see that citizens themselves thing city hall is useless, it won't inspire confidence. The developer's blame game is working perfectly for them. So sad.

So maybe someone else can get a response printed ;-)

[coalminecanary]

Man that letter makes no sense! Saying that the city should emulate stinson and come up with a plan. The city is not the problem! LIUNA was the problem at connaught, and if liuna is replaced by stinson and things start to happen it should be a clear indicator that the city was never in liuna's way.

If that letter writer wants to see action at lister he needs to tell LIUNA to take a hint from stinson, not the city.

ARGH

[highwater]

It can't hurt to write a rebuttal. You never know. They've printed rebuttals in the past, and often when the original letter writer had nothing new to add, like Crazy-Climate-Change-Denial Lady and Westdalers-Should-Move-If-They-Don't-Like-People-Vomiting-On-Their-Porch Guy.

[FairHamilton]

Not yet being a Hamilton resident I don't get The Spec. I'm assuming they don't publish Letters to the Editor online (at least I couldn't find them). Is that correct?

[beanmedic]

http://thespec.com/Opinions

[DC83]

Not yet being a Hamilton resident I don't get The Spec. I'm assuming they don't publish Letters to the Editor online (at least I couldn't find them). Is that correct?

Yep! It's under 'Opinions'

http://thespec.com/Opinions

[FairHamilton]

Thanks, I was looking for "Letters to the Editor".

[SteelTown]

Mayor keeps fingers crossed for successful Lister deal

By Kevin Werner

Mayor Fred Eisenberger remains "positive" a deal that involves the city purchasing the historic Lister Block can be worked out. But he concedes the arrangements have become murky.

"It is getting more complicated," he said.

Councillors last week in a 10-6 vote still had enough confidence in a proposal made by Joe Mancinelli of the Laborer's International Union of North America that would see the city buy the 84-year-old Lister Block for about $32.4 million. The proposal to buy the building rather than leasing it from LIUNA is cheaper and will save money over the long term, said Joe Rinaldo, corporate services general manager.

But there was more than enough skepticism among councillors that they wanted further information about the financial implications of the deal.

Their unease was noted after MHPM Project Managers reviewed LIUNA's proposed costs for the building and found the price per square foot had jumped to $38.60. There is vacant office space in Hamilton's downtown area that is less than half that price.

Councillors also wanted more information on the city's operating and maintenance costs for the building, improvements that need to be made, the value of storage and retail space and any revenue made from the two residential towners that Hi-Rise Development and LIUNA are proposing to construct behind the Lister Block.

Politicians asked city staff to report on the possible economic spin-offs the city may recoup from purchasing the Lister Block. In addition, they wanted to see a binding agreement on construction of the two high-end senior facilities behind the building. Hi-Rise is looking to partner with Kingsway Arms to construct the two towers.

Mr. Mancinelli said during a recent presentation that one tower will be condominium units, while the other will be an upscale retirement facility.

[the dude]

i'm completely confused. if the city's buying lister then why can't it have complete control over what's done with it? and that $32.4M figure is mental, absolutely mental...i don't care where you come from.

[flar]

Better yet, why can't the city purchase Lister outright and have competitive bidding on the reno. Well, we know why...

If some historical designation could be placed on Lister that would prohibit it from being demolished the situation would be a lot better for the city and its taxpayers. If LIUNA couldn't demolish it they wouldn't have the city over a barrel to buy it. The city could simply reject their outrageous terms. LIUNA would be forced to either renovate and find tenants or a different buyer, or put the building on the market as is, where it probably wouldn't be worth much because of its condition and the constraints of the historical designation.

[RePinion]

If the building were to be put on the market with a heritage designation it would in all likelihood have a negative value (something very common with protected buildings in poor states of repair), meaning that it would essentially be unmarketable ... except perhaps to the city, who would be willing to take a loss on paper in order to rejuvenate such an integral downtown building.

All in all, a heritage designation (with teeth) could only benefit the city, although this would assuredly come at the expense of LIUNA (but who really cares about them, quite honestly?) ...

[flar]

That's exactly my point, in the current situation, the city gets screwed. They should have been working hard on a heritage designation all along. I believe it was the province that worked to have the building designated as "significant", which I think is the current status. I'm not exactly sure yhough.

[coalminecanary]

Received a letter in the mail today... (link (http://www.hammerboard.ca/viewtopic.php?p=619#619))

To: Me
From: Ontario's Minister of Culture

Thank you for your letter regarding the protection of the Lister Block in Hamilton.

I share your commitment to conserving and protecting this unique heritage asset. I am following the situation closely as it is evolving and am hopeful that a local solution will be found.

Premier McGuinty committed $7 million for the restoration of the Lister Block, which would become the catalyst for the revitalization of the City of Hamilton's historic downtown core. The Province also asked Ontario's Provincial Development Facilitator to bring together the parties involved to identify common ground and develop acceptable conservation options.

As you know, the Lister Block has already been designated by the City. The City has the legal authority under the Ontario Heritage Act to prevent the demolition of the property. I would encourage you and other interested parties to continue to express your concerns directly to the City.

Thank you again for your interest in Lister Block.

[flar]

. The City has the legal authority under the Ontario Heritage Act to prevent the demolition of the property. I would encourage you and other interested parties to continue to express your concerns directly to the City.



Well, there we have it. The city should not be getting screwed on this. The city should emphatically tell LIUNA the building cannot be demolished and also strictly enforce property standards. The ongoing maintenance costs would hopefully force LIUNA to get to work or sell the building. The city should reject LIUNA's renovation plans and offer to buy the building outright. If the market value is low or there are no buyers other than the city, then tough luck.

[SteelTown]

The city may have the authority to prevent the demolition but it can still bless a demolition permit of the Lister Block like it did a year ago with the approval from a majority of councilors, I'm willing to bet even Bratina would approve it now as he's clearly fed up with the renovation cost.

If renovation of Lister Block fails than I expect a demolition permit to be brought up in council for approval. Or does LIUNA even need to? As the last permit was already approved. Do demolition permits have expiration timeline?

[coalminecanary]

So get writing to your councillors! There is absolutely no reason to demolish that building other than to line LIUNA's pockets.

[HAMRetrofit]

Hamilton really needs to make a bid on the property and explore the option of expropriation. I think that if the city lets this building be demolished it will close the book on downtown Hamilton's revival. It will be perceived by most urban professionals and heritage advocates as corrupt beyond redemption and not the worth time or effort. This decision will be the cornerstone that determines the city's future.

[Goldfinger]

Hamilton really needs to make a bid on the property and explore the option of expropriation. I think that if the city lets this building be demolished it will close the book on downtown Hamilton's revival. It will be perceived by most urban professionals and heritage advocates as corrupt beyond redemption and not the worth time or effort. This decision will be the cornerstone that determines the city's future.

I think that statement is a bit of an overreaction. I don't think we can or should ever close the book on anything. If the building is gone, it's not the end of the world. We move on and build something better.

I would rather see a good business decision being made as opposed to spending money on another white elephant. If you can't make the project work, then propose something that does.

[raisethehammer]

I think that statement is a bit of an overreaction. I don't think we can or should ever close the book on anything. If the building is gone, it's not the end of the world. We move on and build something better.

I would rather see a good business decision being made as opposed to spending money on another white elephant. If you can't make the project work, then propose something that does.


you obviously don't live in Hamilton.

"move on and build something better"???
hahahahahahahaha.

[HAMRetrofit]

You obviously don't know the type of conversation that is happening regarding this project. Trust me it is not pretty. If you want your city to continue being the benefactor of ongoing thumb nosing, demolition is the way go. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of strong action on the behalf of the city on this project. All eyes are watching.

[go_leafs_go02]

meh, demolishing an old abandoned building doesn't always have a negative effect. If i'm correct though, if it is demolished, the exterior facade must be rebuild in the exact same way no matter what.

London was supposed to preserve its old Talbot Inn, and build the John Labatt centre around it, but it was structural deficient, and suddenly, one sunday morning, it was torn down without any explination.

here is the end result: From this: http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:1q-vrQJwLXFXAM:http://www.ohlarenaguide.com/picweek/apr0107.jpg

To this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/John_Labatt_Centre_-_Talbot_Inn_corner.jpg

[matt602]

That's a very good looking replication.

[raisethehammer]

it doesn't look too good in the daytime.
man, that sounds like a Hamilton stunt - demolition at 7am on a Sunday. haha. wow.

[flar]

I watched the Talbot Inn go down from my balcony. Structurally unsound, yeah right. Difficult and expensive to restore and incorporate into the new arena sound more like it. I've never liked the replica, it looks like a new building that is trying to look old. Which it is!

I'll say it again, if the Lister is demolished, it would be STUPID to replicate it. Just build a better modern building!

[highwater]

The Lister block is anything but structurally deficient. It has been found by a number of independent peer reviews to be sound and eminently suited to restoration. There is no good reason, business or otherwise, to demolish this building. Here is what one of the architectural firms conducting a peer review had to say about the economic benefits of preserving heritage buildings:

"It is increasingly the consensus among urban theorists that the preservation of heritage structures is a key component in preserving the vitality of urban core areas and of local urban economies for a variety of reasons. The preservation of heritage monuments adds a dynamic nature to the quality of core areas, which cannot be achieved by the construction of all new buildings. This is more appealing to visitors and tourists whose typical desire is to vist heritage areas rather than modern districts."

[RePinion]

meh, demolishing an old abandoned building doesn't always have a negative effect. If i'm correct though, if it is demolished, the exterior facade must be rebuild in the exact same way no matter what.

This is not a rule in any provision of the Heritage Act. It is certainly possible, though, that the city would only consent to demolition if the owner covenanted to approximately recreate the facade of the existing building in the new construction, as LIUNA did with its proposed "reconstruction" of the Lister. This is a very poor substitute for adaptive re-use and in my opinion robs the building of its intangible heritage value. This is especially true with the Lister, where heritage advocates have focused not only on the facade of the building, but equally so upon key interior features like the retail arcade.

While the Lister has been designated under s.29 of the Act by the city, this does not really guarantee much protection as the city is all too apt to strike a deal with LIUNA. What we really need is provincial designation (s.34.5), under which the Minister of Culture becomes responsible for the building's preservation.

I think expropriation is an excellent idea (which would be facilitated greatly by operation of the Heritage Act) but not one which the city is likely to consider seriously. LIUNA just has too many friends at city hall for such hostile action ever to be taken.

[RePinion]

I agree wholeheartedly with Flar. I would hate to lose the Lister, but if it must be sacrificed on the alter of downtown renewal I suppose I would be willing to see it go. That being said, a truly pivotal building of architectural quality hitherto unseen in Hamilton would have to go up in its stead if it could ever truly be said to be "replaced". I should hope that LIUNA would have nothing to do with it (but then again, why would we be demolishing it if they didn't?).

I just wish LIUNA could be forced out of the picture. I think all advocates of downtown renewal would breath a collective sigh of relief if they were to get out of the property development business.

[Goldfinger]

You guys talk of expropriation like it's a simple thing. You need to understand that the state is taking away private property and they just can't pass a motion and summon LIUNA down to city hall to surrender the deed.

The expropriator must prove that the expropriation is absolutely necessary for the common good, such as building a roadway or sewer line, when there are no other means possible. Even then, the owners can appeal the expropriation and tie it up in court for years. I have seen these things drag out for over 7 years and by that time the government changes and they usually end up dropping the action.

Laws were changed because municipalities were abusing the powers to do everything from urban renewal (e.g.Jackson Square) to creating more landfills.

In the end, it's private property and as long as the taxes are paid, can stay that way. You guys may not like it, but it protects everyone from LIUNA to the average homeowner from having their property siezed by the state.

[RePinion]

Actually they don't need to do much more than pass a by-law.

Per the Heritage Act:

Purchase or lease by-laws

36. (1) The council of a municipality may pass by-laws providing for acquiring, by purchase, lease or otherwise, any property or part thereof designated under this Part, including any interest therein, for the use or purposes of this Part and for disposing of such property, or any interest therein, by sale, lease or otherwise, when no longer so required, upon such terms and conditions as the council considers necessary for the purposes of this Part. R.S.O. 1990, c. O.18, s. 36 (1).

Expropriating by-law

(2) Subject to the Expropriations Act, the council of every municipality may pass by-laws providing for the expropriation of any property designated under this Part and required for the purposes of this Part and may sell, lease or otherwise dispose of the property, when no longer so required, upon such terms and conditions as the council considers necessary for the purposes of this Part. R.S.O. 1990, c. O.18, s. 36 (2).

Obviously there are avenues of appeal. When a building is a designated heritage building, it is automatically presumed that the building's preservation is in the public's interest. Expropriation to prevent further deterioration can satisfy your necessity requirement.

That being said, the city would only have to prove its case on such strict terms if indeed the case were appealed beyond the Board to judicial review. And even there, there are no formal requirements that the expropriating power show "that the expropriation is absolutely necessary for the common good, such as building a roadway or sewer line, when there are no other means possible." Really, according to the case law, all the city would need to show was either that it required the building for its own uses and could no longer suffer the delay (the city did once consider expropriating the Lister for city purposes in the somewhat distant past) or that it had compelling reason to believe that LIUNA's continued possession of the Lister would result in irreparable deterioration.

Go read the Expropriations Act. Private Property is not nearly so sacrosanct as you might think.

[raisethehammer]

it is simple. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have seen disasters like York Blvd, Jackson Square etc.... hundreds of buildings and hundreds of businesses demolished via expropriation.

[Goldfinger]

it is simple. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have seen disasters like York Blvd, Jackson Square etc.... hundreds of buildings and hundreds of businesses demolished via expropriation.

If you bothered to read my post, I said that it WAS simple. It's funny that you blame the city for past horrors of planning, now you want them to go full bore and start expropriating everything in sight for "protection"

The Conservatives have discussed enshrining property rights in the Charter. I think that would go a long way in protecting the rights of proprty owners in Canada.

Although most of the Socialists on this board would disagree. :D

[FairHamilton]

If you bothered to read my post, I said that it WAS simple.

Sorry, I didn't read that it "WAS" simple in your post. I read that it "WASN'T" simple to expropriate land. Am I out in left field?

I've never liked the replica, it looks like a new building that is trying to look old. Which it is!

Though ultimately, what has the development done for downtown London? Has it had a positive or negative effect?

I ask because it's been years since I've been to London and don't know, though I'm reading between the lines it has been a catalyst for improvement in the area.

[raisethehammer]

You guys talk of expropriation like it's a simple thing. You need to understand that the state is taking away private property and they just can't pass a motion and summon LIUNA down to city hall to surrender the deed.

The expropriator must prove that the expropriation is absolutely necessary for the common good, such as building a roadway or sewer line, when there are no other means possible. Even then, the owners can appeal the expropriation and tie it up in court for years. I have seen these things drag out for over 7 years and by that time the government changes and they usually end up dropping the action.

Laws were changed because municipalities were abusing the powers to do everything from urban renewal (e.g.Jackson Square) to creating more landfills.

In the end, it's private property and as long as the taxes are paid, can stay that way. You guys may not like it, but it protects everyone from LIUNA to the average homeowner from having their property siezed by the state.


well, either I forgot how to read over the weekend, or you forgot how to write.
This post sure sounds to me like you're saying expropriation is difficult.

I'm all for property rights, but not when parties are trying to break rules and are harming the neighbourhood and city by being absentee landlords.
We need a bylaw like in Europe where an empty building can be claimed by anyone after a couple of years. That would get property owners on the ball around here instead of just trying to be thug landlords looking for a public handout. Who's the "socialists" in this case??? I would say you and everyone who supports these 'public-money' hungry guys.

[RePinion]

The Conservatives have discussed enshrining property rights in the Charter. I think that would go a long way in protecting the rights of proprty owners in Canada.

Although most of the Socialists on this board would disagree. :D

Property rights are enshrined in the US constitution. This hasn't stopped state governments from exercising their extensive powers of eminent domain. Their lawyers have, over the decades, found numerous ways to circumvent the fifth and fourteenth amendments.

If the Conservatives were ever to enshrine property rights in the Charter, this would just be political posturing.

[Goldfinger]

If the Conservatives were ever to enshrine property rights in the Charter, this would just be political posturing.

How so?

[realcity]

Why bother replicating a moderately okay looking building? The only reason I support a total renovation is because it's vintage. Replicating a vintage building is stupid. It would never have the same quality and the history is gone as far as I'm concerned, the materials, workmanship, the layout would all be changed in a replication.

[realcity]

I don't understand the $32 million dollar price tag???

Is the City that stupid. To buy the building then pay a markup to LIUNA for the renovation work and have no control over the renovation?

If the City plans to buy it, they should pay market value for the building, say $4 million -- then RFP a renovation. Let LIUNA submit but also other firms like Ellis Don etc and include a condo tower in the RFP application.

or is LIUNA only selling if the deal is they renovate at a cost of $20 million and sell the renovation for $30 million?

[coalminecanary]

is LIUNA only selling if the deal is they renovate

that seems to be the case, yes.

this is why the city needs to pull out the property standards guns

enough bending over for these thugs.

[HAMRetrofit]

I don't see what is so bad about a $32 million dollar vintage restored historic municipal building. I don't understand why this project needs the retirement home and condo for approval. We are talking history here and that cannot be replaced. $32 million is a fair cost to pay. It is unfortunate that LIUNA cannot be more charitable, but in the end is better to pay a bit more to halt the erasure of history. There are other ways that the city can recover some of these costs from LIUNA anyways. So I say get on with the restoration ASAP.

I don't think that there will be that significant of a cost difference if the city owns the building. This could even ending up costing more. Professional consultants and professionals have gone over this repetitively. The most economical thing to do is to accept it and move the project forward. Claim the $7 million. Think of how damb good it will feel to have that building under construction.

[RePinion]

How so?

Because it would not substantively alter the Canadian expropriations regime as it stands.

Furthermore, as a practical reality, Canadian courts already accord basically the same level of protection for private property as do courts in the US, even though there is no explicit protection for PP in the Charter. And also, in certain circumstances, a constitutional protection for PP can be read into various sections of the Charter, most notably s.7.

As a final point, some scholars argue that private property rights are indeed already protected by the constitution - namely, by way of the preamble, which states that Canada is to have a constitution similar in principle to that of the UK (which has always protected private property).

[RePinion]

There are other ways that the city can recover some of these costs from LIUNA anyways.

How do you expect the city will do this?

[raisethehammer]

at this point I'd be happy with the city paying $32 mil IF, IF, IF they are actually getting a properly restored heritage building...retail arcade, terra cotta, the whole 9 yards. not some piece of garbage like the federal building rammed into the arcade and fake materials on the outside.

[HAMRetrofit]

Tax assessments.

Yes a full mint restoration for $32 million would be awesome. The extra $7 million is an added bonus. I just want to see a piece of Ontario's history restored to near perfection. As corrupt as they are, they have the access to the trades to do the job right.

I also want to see the arcade restored perfectly. I don't care what goes in there as long as it can someday be removed and does not affect the architecture negatively. I just want to see this building restored ASAP! For that, $32 million is okay with me.