[SteelTown]

Eisenberger pushes for downtown pedestrian mall

Eric McGuinness
The Hamilton Spectator
(Oct 2, 2007)

Mayor Fred Eisenberger wants to give downtown a boost by creating a pedestrian mall on both sides of Gore Park, detouring all but bus traffic off King Street East between Catharine and James streets.

"This is an issue whose time has come," Eisenberger declared yesterday.

The mayor told council's public works committee: "I'd like to start the public debate. We need to take large, dramatic steps to make things happen."

He said he also wants to look at similar plans in other downtown cores which have become busy routes for through traffic.

"I want to look at a way to invigorate downtown cores, not just Hamilton but Dundas and Stoney Creek.

"We are looking at opening the expressway (Red Hill Valley Parkway next month). That gives some hope there are alternate ways of moving around the city, especially the downtown area."

Committee members went along, directing staff to add the Hamilton scheme to a five-year review of the Downtown Transportation Master Plan, which begins with a public information centre at the convention centre from 5 to 8 p.m. tomorrow.

They also directed staff to report on cost and implementation.

In an interview after the meeting, Eisenberger said: "I'd like to have something happen in less than a year, even sooner if we could do it on a part-time basis, if we get agreement.

"I've talked to people throughout the community and had nothing but support."

Eisenberger said he was inspired by the Hungarian city of Debrecen, population about 205,000, "whose downtown core was struggling with the same kinds of issues."

A pedestrian mall there, served by a light-rail line, "generated an enormous amount of investment, inspired a whole new view of what their downtown was.

"It brought a whole lot of people in."

http://www.thespec.com/images/assets/343863_3.JPG

[SteelTown]

Some think mayor's 'dramatic' plan goes too far

John Burman
The Hamilton Spectator
(Oct 2, 2007)

Mayor Fred Eisenberger says Hamilton needs to take a bold step forward and create a King Street East pedestrian mall on both sides of Gore Park.

But the mayor's vision of "large, dramatic steps" -- closing off both the north and south sides of King Street East between James and Catharine streets -- may be a half a street too far.

John Mokrycke, a Hamilton architect and a downtown and heritage advocate, doesn't think there's enough people or commercial activity downtown right now to make a pedestrian mall on both sides of King a success.

He's happy with the idea of closing the south leg of King and getting the buses away from Gore Park. He says it should have been done 20 years ago.

But it's too soon to think about closing the north side, he said yesterday.

Mokrycke believes it would be better to turn the south side into a pedestrian area and leave the north side of King Street for two-way traffic.

The mayor says he wants to kick-start debate on the idea but no one told the Downtown Business Improvement Area, which represents 115 property owners and 250 businesses downtown.

"It comes as something of a surprise," said Kathy Drewitt, the BIA's executive director.

Drewitt says the BIA has been lobbying to get the buses moved away from Gore Park to MacNab Street, but this is the first they've heard about a pedestrian mall on the north side of King.

Other proposals to close off the south side of King have met with strenuous objection from businesses there and on Hughson and John streets, she said.

Instead the BIA would like to see angle parking on the south side and improvements to Gore Park itself.

"We need a new plan to restructure Gore Park," Drewitt said, adding the BIA would like to see the city start planting trees to eventually replace ash trees around the park.

Both Drewitt and Mokrycke agree it might be an idea to have a pedestrian mall on King on weekends or special occasions so people get a feel for it.

Downtown Councillor Bob Bratina said the mayor's idea is "really an idea whose time not only has come, but came a long time ago."

He believes the main obstacle to more pedestrian use of the south leg of King has always been the buses.

An environmental assessment of locations for a new bus hub replacing the Gore location is nearing completion. Options include using Hunter Street East in front of the GO Centre or the parking lot between the Pigott Building and Commerce Place on James, just south of King.

"I think the time has come to get this done, not get bogged down in three, four, five years of study," said Eisenberger.

[miketoronto]

A full pedestrian mall I don't think is needed at this point. If the mayor wants people downtown, then he has to have places along King Street that will attract people to come downtown. King Street near Gore Park needs cafe's on one side, and shops that will actually draw people.

And can I say one thing about the buses.

Moving the buses from Gore Park I think is the worst idea ever. The buses are the reason Gore Park and that area of King Street is busy. Remove the buses, and Gore Park will be hardly used at all.

You notice that when you are downtown at night. Many streets are quiet, yet Gore Park is packed, because people are getting on buses. Buses are the lifeblood of the park.

[HAMRetrofit]

You have no idea what you are talking about. A bus drop off with passengers that are quickly transferring to go else where does little to enhance this public space.

First, the pedestrianization project can work if it is attached to a larger subsidization project of creating new street front retail and liveable spaces above them along King Street.

Second, the buses create a terrible condition in Gore Park in which diesel fumes and loud noise reduce the quality of the space. This experience is further degraded by the quick passing cars on one way King Street.

Pedestrianization of Gore Park combined with light rail and subsidization of development projects along King Street will be a major step in making downtown Hamilton far more liveable.

[DC83]

A full pedestrian mall I don't think is needed at this point. If the mayor wants people downtown, then he has to have places along King Street that will attract people to come downtown. King Street near Gore Park needs cafe's on one side, and shops that will actually draw people.

And can I say one thing about the buses.

Moving the buses from Gore Park I think is the worst idea ever. The buses are the reason Gore Park and that area of King Street is busy. Remove the buses, and Gore Park will be hardly used at all.

You notice that when you are downtown at night. Many streets are quiet, yet Gore Park is packed, because people are getting on buses. Buses are the lifeblood of the park.

Not completely, true Mike.
During the daytime, The Gore is PUMPING with life: business ppl, transit riders, sightseers, passers-by...
At night, the PARK is mostly full of transit riders, however the sidewalks are often packed (esp during the summer) with people sitting at Infussion's Cafe, Finger's bar & Grill, Chester's Beer of the Worlds. I have YET to see anyone in Taj Mahal's patio (summertime or anytime). At night, Thu-Sun, if you walk behind the bldgs that face Gore, there's The Embassy Club with their HUGE double-decker outdoor patio/balcony. You can hear the club's music all the way from King/James.

When the city removes the buses from Gore, they'll likely keep the Hub in the general area (either lot beside Piggot or Hunter St @ The GO). Therefore, people will still either choose to or be forced to walk through the Gore. Not as many people will travel through, but these transit riders don't use these businesses anyway. It's the people who have the time to eat, drink, talk, etc. who stop at most of these places.

I can tell you for a fact that most ppl I know wont eat/drink/talk at a patio in Gore Park at the moment b/c it's simply too loud. Busses squeeling, roaring by, normal cars flying down the cobblestone road, etc. It's not an ideal place in it's current state... give it a cpl years, when there are no more distractions and a better BIA, the Gore will be THE place (next to Hess I guess) to be in Hamilton.

[DC83]

hahaha you read my mind, HAMRetrofit!!

[realcity]

you know what it needs. POLICING!!!!!!!!!!!!! people don't feel safe. It is creepy whether the danger is real or perceived is a useless debate. Perceived reality is reality. Humans are instinctive animals, if we believe danger exists we don't go there.

[SteelTown]

Just look up at Gore Park and you'll see a camera.

[SteelTown]

Merchants think mayor's idea bad for business
Fred Eisenberger envisions Stoney Creek pedestrian mall

Abigail Cukier, Stoney Creek
(Nov 2, 2007)

Although Mayor Fred Eisenberger said he was merely musing over turning downtown Stoney Creek into a pedestrian mall, local merchants definitely had something to say about it.

Mr. Eisenberger envisions a pedestrian mall in downtown Hamilton, on King Street East from Catharine Street to James Street, which includes Gore Park. City staff is studying the plan, which Mr. Eisenberger argues would encourage businesses to open and entice more people to stroll the downtown. He would like to see similar plans in Dundas and on King Street in Stoney Creek.

"You might as well put up a 'closed for business' sign," said Dave Cage, executive director of the Stoney Creek Chamber of Commerce.

"We would definitely have to look at it, because the layout of downtown Stoney Creek is not the same as James Street or Gore Park. Cars would be diverted up small, residential streets, narrow streets with four-way stop signs and pass by (RL) Hyslop school.

"I don't share that same vision, but I am willing to discuss it."

Stoney Creek BIA chair Ed Strecker, who owns Britannia Cleaners at 17 King St. E., called the idea a "disaster."

"Do you want to talk about getting rid of your downtown, that would be it," he said. "If you have a lawyer or a doctor, that's one thing, but for a dry cleaner or a convenience store, you're going to go to the one that's most convenient. That's not doing us any favour at all."

Mr. Eisenberger stresses this is just an idea and realizes it needs to be studied. But he believes something has to be done about traffic on King Street. He marvelled at the volume of cars when crossing the street on a visit to the area.

"That's not warm and friendly. You want to make it more pedestrian friendly," he said. "The issues might be different than downtown Hamilton. So I would leave it to the local councillors to bring up and discuss."

Joanne Wynhofen, owner of the Picture Palace at 19 King St. E., says she sees merit in the mayor's idea.

"The cars go so fast on King Street that it's an excellent idea. But do we have enough pedestrians, enough interesting businesses to bring them down here," she said.

"We would need more interesting shops and you're not going to get that without the people. So it goes around."

Connie Behie, executive director of the Stoney Creek BIA agrees.

"The merchants don't lend themselves to that. They are more service providers. People don't want to trot for miles lugging their dry cleaning or massive picture frames," she said. "The mechanic, I think he wouldn't be too happy about people not being able to bring their cars.

"The complexion of the street would have to change dramatically and the access streets would also have to change."

Mary Terziev-Clifford of the Village Restaurant, doesn't believe the plan would be in the restaurant's 'best interests.'

"A lot of traffic drives by and the people say, 'Oh, let's go there for dinner or maybe next time,'" she said. "We can't live on the locals. The locals are wonderful, but they know who you are. We need fresh new faces. We already advertise quite a bit and we would need to advertise more, which costs a lot."

But Mr. Eisenberger says flow through traffic makes an area uninviting.

"You want to make a place inviting for people to visit. A line-up of cars is not very interesting," he says. "We have to look at whether or not we can create it or how it would work. We have Queenston Road and Lake Avenue and we could create other ways, but it's something worth looking at.We would get the BIA's input and staff would do a transportation study.

"These areas need to be more inviting. You need to create a destination point and the stores would benefit greatly. You want a warm, inviting destination, rather than a fly through from East Hamilton to Grimsby."

Ward councillor Brad Clark said he doesn't know how it would be done.

"I would vehemently oppose it. We have a plan for downtown Stoney Creek and it does not include a promenade," he said. "We have the old Stoney Creek plan, which will be ready for the anniversary of the Battle of Stoney Creek."

Stoney Creek council passed the Olde Town Urban Design Plan in 1997, with a completion date of 2013 to coincide with the bicentennial of the Battle of Stoney Creek.

Improvements have included the town square and fountain with the Augustus Jones sculpture, traditional street signs, renovations to Battlefield Monument and reconstruction of Battlefield bridge. Other items still on the list include a seniors centre and further upgrades to Battlefield Park.

[the dude]

Just look up at Gore Park and you'll see a camera.

ha ha...those cameras are useless. it ain't policing, it's observing and it does frig all. we need cops walking the beat.

i've made several attempts to sit and relax in gore park over the years but it's nearly impossible for a [relatively] normal person to do so. everyone around you is either smoking, spitting, screaming at invisible people, or taking a hit off a poorly concealed doobie. removing the buses will help but a great deal more needs to be done. we need to find a way to attract a greater mix of people to the area, not just down-and-outers.

[DC83]

^^ the cams aren't monitored at all. They're there incase "anything happens".
And as someone who walks through Gore Park often (daytime, nightime, ANYtime) I can tell you things ARE happening.

I agree that police walking the beat is the best solution (along with the cameras) to keeping the Gore clear of crackheads, etc.

Sadly, I don't think it's the crackheads ppl are afraid of... I think it's the younger "thugs" who just sit around and talk. They're harmless, but I can understand why most would be afraid to walk past them.

[raisethehammer]

Gore is completely safe..I'm there in day or night and never feel the slightest bit worried.
I'm more worried walking down a deserted suburban street than I am downtown.
I think Mike has a point with the amount of people there for buses.
I'd like to see the north leg of King go 2-way with eastbound bus stops at the northern edge of Gore Park...the south leg of Gore can be for patios and shops...but to remove transit off King all-together would devestate the area.
It's the cars that have to go, not the pedestrians or transit.
Just came back from Gore actually (11pm, Friday night). Wonderful night...tons of people around.
Saw 2 sets of 2 cops riding by on bike....not once did I think "gee, I wish there was a cop here".
Perceived safety issues are pumped in the local media and as I've said elsewhere on these forums the sooner people stop watching TV and believing all the crap, the better off society would be.

[DC83]

Gore is completely safe..I'm there in day or night and never feel the slightest bit worried.
I'm more worried walking down a deserted suburban street than I am downtown.

I actually am more scared in the country than I am downtown.
I've seen all Friday the 13th's... I know what goes on in rural areas!
Jason takes Manhattan was just rediculous! hahaha

But seriously, I'm very concerned about this project b/c I'm certain the BIA and Cathey DaTwit will never let it pass.
I remember emailing Hamilton Pride last winter'ish to discuss shutting down Gore Park/Southern-Leg of King for a weekend for Pride Festivities, much like Toronto and Church St. They told me they could not b/c of City Officials and the local BIA (which I'm assuming was the Downtown BIA).

If they (the BIA) will fight to keep the Gore Park Parking Lot closed for a WEEKEND festival (when most people don't park in the gore anyway), then I can just imagine the fight Ms DaTwit and her clan of Loan Shop Owners will put up to completely shut it off.

ps: does she (DaTwit) ever return emails?

[SteelTown]

Next year the City starts the constriction of the new downtown transit terminal and so far all indications are pointing to a new terminal along Hunter St next to the GO Station.

[DC83]

Next year the City starts the constriction of the new downtown transit terminal and so far all indications are pointing to a new terminal along Hunter St next to the GO Station.

They're going to BUILD, or just re-streetscape Hunter to allow "bays" for the buses?

I like the Hunter option... but I hope they put the stops along the northern-edge of the street.

Any idea of what's going in that bldg @ Hunter/James? (old public health dept., I believe)

[SteelTown]

^ Office space, it was mentioned in the 40 some pages of Hamilton Next article, adding another floor.

Construction as building a terminal in the middle, with displays telling you when the next bus should arrive, washrooms (a must have especially with HSR contract talks), likely a Tim Hortons, heated shelters, etc. The construction value is in the millions and needs approval from council in the next budget. It has the highest priority for funding.

[DC83]

^^ Where are they building new along Hunter? In the lot beside this bldg?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/DSC01957.jpg

either that or they'll demo that bldg and keep the lot for parking... sounds more Hamilton-esq to me!

But that's a great idea about heated shelters, a tim's, & electronic bus scheds! Let's hope it goes thru!

[SteelTown]

Oh wait sorry the passenger terminal will be at MacNab at the surface parking lot, facing towards MacNab.

Option A – MacNab/Hunter Terminal
This option represents a concept which could meet the adopted program requirements while minimizing the amount of private property acquisition. A total of 10 platform locations would be provided at the MacNab Street location using the present island platform layout. The access to the surface parking lot from MacNab would be closed to allow construction of a new passenger terminal building and operations centre on a portion of the parking lot site. No changes in the present traffic patterns would be introduced.

To meet the required 13-platform program, three platforms would be developed along Hunter Street adjacent to the GO TH&B Terminal. The bus platforms would be created in the area presently occupied by the present curb parking. An estimated total of eight parking spaces would be displaced.

[SteelTown]

If you check Mayor's Fred facebook you'll see pictures that he took in Halifax recently....

http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v135/208/98/664610742/n664610742_618814_1892.jpg
Pedestrian Plaza in downtown Halifax

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v135/208/98/664610742/n664610742_618815_2256.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v135/208/98/664610742/n664610742_618816_3052.jpg

[BCTed]

If you check Mayor's Fred facebook you'll see pictures that he took in Halifax recently....



Those pictures do not help the argument for pedestrian malls, given that it looks to be the middle of the day with warm weather and there are a total of four people in the first pic and two in the second. I am sure that things are not like that all day, but those pedestrian mall pics are certainly missing pedestrians.

[BCTed]

Those pictures do not help the argument for pedestrian malls, given that it looks to be the middle of the day with warm weather and there are a total of four people in the first pic and two in the second. I am sure that things are not like that all day, but those pedestrian mall pics are certainly missing pedestrians.

Oh, and there appear to be a couple of empty storefronts.

[raisethehammer]

I'm not a big fan of pedestrian malls like that....I prefer more piazza type projects which is what our Gore would be.
The area along the Montreal waterfront is more of what I have in mind for the Gore.

I don't think the city has decided on the bus terminal yet.
Yup...office space by Blair, Blanchard group at James and Hunter. They've been great for the downtown.

[the dude]

ya, this will not be a pedestrian mall, as such. i don't think people realize this. the entire concept is likely difficult for most people to understand given our car culture. it'll be a plaza, piazza, place. call it what you like.

[Jon Dalton]

My concern with the Hunter St. Go station as an HSR terminal is that it would take away incidental street traffic from Gore Park. People that find themselves at Gore in between buses would be likely to walk around and shop. If all this traffic is relocated to Hunter, there exists the psychological barrier of Main St. in between them and the shops. Main has the effect of making things seem further away from one side to the other.

[Jon Dalton]

Those pictures do not help the argument for pedestrian malls, given that it looks to be the middle of the day with warm weather and there are a total of four people in the first pic and two in the second. I am sure that things are not like that all day, but those pedestrian mall pics are certainly missing pedestrians.

FINE. Is this a better example?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2036/1846592757_13b18edc96.jpg?v=0

[SteelTown]

They'll only be 4 bus stops at Hunter St. The other 10 will be at MacNab. The passenger terminal will be at MacNab as well so I don't think it's all that bad. I know all Mountain buses will go to MacNab - travel down John turn on King enter MacNab...exit out on Main and turn at James St.

I'm going to make a new thread to discuss about the downtown terminal soon.

[Berklon]

Halifax's Pedestrian Plaza is nice and has that European feel to it. Howver I like the potential of Gore more, since it has the advantage of being wider allowing for more people and avoiding the claustorphobic feeling you get with thinner walkways and tall buildings. I like it more open and airy.

[BCTed]

FINE. Is this a better example?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2036/1846592757_13b18edc96.jpg?v=0


There are more pedestrians on that pedestrian mall.

[the dude]

here are a few old photos i found downtown of the gore park area before it expanded east.

looking south on john towards the old post office.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/IMG_0329.jpg

looking west from catharine towards the post office.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/IMG_0328.jpg

looking south on john past the old wesanford clothing manufactory. notice the building farthest away. it's soon to become the london tap house.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/IMG_0327.jpg

south side of king from hughson to john. the hamilton loan and provident building [far right] was deemed expendable in the early 60s in favour of the shitbox that stands on the site now. that's progress, right?
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/IMG_0326.jpg

[matt602]

Are any of those buildings there at all anymore? I think Victoria/Mackay should be there, but I can't make them out.

[the dude]

i would guess that victoria hall is the third or fourth from the left, not including the post office. it's an old building that was renovated into what it is today in the first decade of the 20th century. mackay was built well after this photo was taken. other than that, none of those buildings still stand today.

[matt602]

Ah I see it, it's actually right beside the post office.

[NorthEndRules]

Just came back from Noodle Chef (spicy and awesome) with my wife (also nice). She came up with a good idea. Why not have the ice rink at Gore Park around the Fountain. There can be 2 semi-circular benches around it. With the proper safety measures, it would be a unique destination for downtown residents, suburbanites and out of towners. The skating rink in front of City hall has been done (ie Toronto). Imagine grabbing a coffee and watching the skaters from one of the shops there.

[raisethehammer]

yes, Noodle Chef rocks...and so does your wife by the sounds of it. Great idea!!
The only possible problem I could see is how narrow the sides of the rink would be. I assume the sidewalks along both sides of King would need to be kept clear.
I'll have to look closely when i'm down there tomorrow....if it could work, it's pure genius.

[DC83]

^^ That's a pretty great idea, for sure!!
I also don't know whether or not one would fit in the Gore either?
If not, they should incorporate a rink in the plans for the Rebecca St Park.
Either there or in Commonwealth Square across from City Hall. This section of Main is surprisingly dead despite it's proximity to City Hall/School Board/IBM Bldg/Family Court House which all have activity every business day during business hours.
I think something like a big, bold water feature that can turn into an ice rink (kinda like the one at Spencer Smith Park in Burly) would really bring life back to this area.

[Berklon]

That would be a great idea... except it would leave pedestrians without Gore Park in the winter. Of course I don't know how many pedestrians walk through Gore in the winter, so that may be a minor thing.

[DC83]

That would be a great idea... except it would leave pedestrians without Gore Park in the winter. Of course I don't know how many pedestrians walk through Gore in the winter, so that may be a minor thing.

Gore Park in the winter is SOOO gorgeous!! After a fresh snowfall, I go out of my way to walk through Gore Park. Especially when they have the Christmas Decor up, like the LED Lights/Red Bows up on the Fountain.
It's such a nice place to visit during the snowy months.

[SteelTown]

If we can get Gore Park pedestrianized a skating rink there would be beautiful like like Rockefeller Center.

[raisethehammer]

yup..there'd be plenty of room for pedestrians still. i think the rink would basically just take up the space from the benches near Queen Victoria over to the area in front of the huge Christmas tree.
it would be awesome to have a rink there.

[NorthEndRules]

It is true a rink around the fountain would take up a lot of room and may be quite expensive. However, can you imagine how great it would be to be skating around the beautifully decorated symbol of Hamilton? As you skate around the fountain, you could see the whole downtown area. You would see a new inviting entrance to Jackson square, bustling office buildings, cafes and restaurants full of customers, the east side of gore park all decked out, new shops all along the other side of king street, a new lister and a spruced up City centre. Now, imagine sitting in one of the cafes, or restaurants and watching the skaters go by. This would be the perfect postcard scene of Canadiana for Hamilton which could rehabilitate our image nationwide. Even the Randle Reef cleanup couldn't do as much.

You hear people complaining about parking downtown. They don't want to park and walk for 5 minutes because there is nothing there to entice them. There has to be something to make them decide that coming to experience Gore park will be worth it. And while they are there, they will walk to Jackson Square, they will walk to a movie, they walk and window shop, they will walk to a new exciting restaurant... It will become a pedestrian area.

Gore park is ideally suited as such a destination that can draw people who want something fun to do from miles around. Limeridge Mall, Centre Mall and Meadowlands could not offer the same ambience and cache that a bustling downtown can offer.

In the summer at least part of the rink can be a water display and the other half can be full of art pieces, or flower arrangements, or full of vendors.

[DC83]

Maybe they could turn the actual street into a rink rather than part of the park?

I'd like to skate along King St (the south leg of course haha) up to Infussions, buy a hot chocolate (I'd assume they'd open a lil booth right beside their patio) and continue to skate around.

They could seperate the street into different sections/rinks: one for little kids, one for playing hockey, and one for everyone else!

Pedestrianizing Gore has so many opportunities rather than just a street people can walk on, which is what most Hamiltonians perceive this idea as.
Look how many ideas we've come up with already!!

Wintertime = Ice Rinks / Winterfest / New Years Party a-la Times Square or Nathan Phillips Sq
Summertime = Festival Grounds (different festival every week a-la Montréal)
Springtime = Kid's Easter Parade/Party
Fall = Halloween Bash such as the one in TO on Church St / Rememberence Day Ceremony the likes the Gore used to see

If they just left it as a street to walk on 75% of the year, then maybe the stores along Gore wouldn't get as much business.
BUT if they were to hold events in the Gore all year long, retail would boom!

[raisethehammer]

that's part of the problem...i'm not sure the downtown BIA knows how to run good events.

[the dude]

quebec freezes some of their streets for skating during carnaval. that would be cool.

[raisethehammer]

I just watched a movie tonight and they had the main street of the downtown frozen for an ice rink at Christmas.
Frig, that would be sweet for the south leg of Gore.

[NorthEndRules]

Imagine a shinny tournament only with tennis balls for the sake of the windows nearby. It would draw people for sure and it would liven things up. Gore park would have to be altered though.

[SteelTown]

From Downtown BIA....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore3.jpg

[raisethehammer]

sounds like they're finally doing some homework instead of just hanging onto the back bumper of their beloved cars.

Yea, the more I think about it, I'm not sure about the north leg of King...at least not yet. 2-way, for sure. 1-way is just ridiculous.

South leg should be closed, but programming should become year-round. I still think they are hindering the full potential of the south leg by limiting it to June-September. People/musicians/businesses will know that come September there will be nothing happening again. That's no incentive for someone to open a new business that will be open 12 months a year. They need the human beings on the street all 12 months.
If anyone was out last Friday to the tree lighting just ask yourself why that couldn't be the norm all year. it was amazing. I didn't hear one person complaining about the south leg of Gore being closed and them having to waste time looking for parking. everyone was enjoying our downtown.
Buses should remain on the north leg of King. the BIA of all people should know this, but most of their shoppers/diners come from the transit system or nearby office towers.

I hope some of the BIA people were there on Friday and again on Saturday. Hordes of people in Gore Park. Heaven forbid.

[chris k]

I agree 100% with what raisethehammer about gore park and making it people friendly. My idea would be to convert king there two way with a dedicated bus lane at gore so they still have the same presence there.

Is King going to be two way for sure? If so, when? I think I heard 2012 somehwere.

[matt602]

The BIA's recommendation seems very fair to me.

[DC83]

The BIA's recommendation seems very fair to me.

I agree. I do not support shutting of the North leg of King St, nor do I support pedestrianizing downtown Stoney Creek -- there's just not enough foot traffic in that stretch.

Although it's not ideal, I like the idea of a pilot project AS LONG as they do it properly. They suggest events throughout the summer months, but these events need to be more than "Music in the Gore". They need a draw. Once they find the right event(s), they'll realize the potential in this project.

Did everyone else email the BIA about this? I know I did. I hope our rants helped them change their mind -- it seemed to work for the Centre Mall project.

[DC83]

Provincial Grant Could Move Busses Out Of The Gore
Mar, 04 2008 - 3:10 PM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - Hamilton's Mayor suggests it could be the money that the city needs to move forward with a plan to move city busses away from Gore Park.

Fred Eisenberger confirming that the city has recieved a provincial grant of 7.5 million dollars, for capital projects related to the transit system.

The funding was initially suggested last fall, within the McGuinty Government's economic statement. Eisenberger adding that Hamilton's share was confirmed in a letter from the Minister of Transportation on Friday.

A proposal to move busses away from the "gore" will be before Hamilton politicians in the next couple of months. The Mayor suggests it will focus on portions of MacNab and Hunter Streets, tying into the existing GO Station.

Ward 2 Councillor Bob Bratina adds the funding could accerelate the process by about two years.

http://900chml.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428763912&rem=87147&red=80176323aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm

[DC83]

(from the article Steeltown Posted in 'one-way streets')

Gore Park

It's still up for discussion what parts of King Street East would be closed to make a pedestrian-friendly area around Gore Park. This city is seeking input on how large that area should be and how the space should be structured. Here's a look at the three concepts the city is seeking input on tonight.

Pedestrian mall: Vehicles would be prohibited from the street. Opportunities for delivery vehicles at designated times, transit and cycling would all be considered.

Shared space: Pedestrians and vehicles would share the space, with those on foot taking priority. There would be no boundaries, like hard curbs, to separate traffic and pedestrians, and a lesser priority would be placed on signs and lights to direct traffic. Rather, the concept relies heavily on person-to-person signals to navigate the road. City staff cite Hess Street between King and Main streets and university campuses as an example of the concept.

Pedestrian Sundays: Part of the street would be closed for a designated time and open to pedestrians only. City staff say the concept is already used in several cities, including Buffalo, Toronto and Vancouver.

Which way is the best way?

The two sides of the two-way conversion argument: Pros: * Two-way traffic offers increased access to neighbourhoods and shops * Makes the area more pedestrian-friendly by slowing traffic down * It's easier to navigate Cons: * The one-way system has been working for more than 50 years * Conversion is an unnecessary expense when council is pinched for cash * One-way traffic moves faster

http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/341323

[matt602]

Wow. The "Cons" could have been pointed out by a grade 6 geography student.

Downtowns aren't supposed to be quick flowing traffic areas. Apparently the City doesn't understand this. That's what highways are for. You get on them and they whisk you off to other places.

[raisethehammer]

anyone else make it to the meeting tonight?? great panels depicting a pedestrian Gore and King St. They should be up on the city's website soon.

[SteelTown]

And when they do post them online I'll copy and paste the images here. Usually it's the next day or two they upload the panels. I remember going to the Transportation Master Plan and the next day it was posted on the city's website.

[raisethehammer]

they are proposing different versions for the Gore Plaza. Full closure on both sides. Open space concept on both sides - people, transit, bikes all mixing on narrow streets with 'courtesy right of way' being the operating model (like George St in Hess).
Closure of King from James to Wellington.

[raisethehammer]

wow...what a painful 4 minutes that was. I made the mistake of turning on CH news to see what they had to say about the meeting tonight since I saw them there.
Same old BS.
I would love it if CH, the Spec and CHML all went out of business tomorrow. Pieces of Hamilton's history that I would happily 'demolish'. It might force residents to actually have to seek out good info instead of being spoonfed such crap everyday by a bunch of institutions that have zero vision for our city.

[mishap]

they are proposing different versions for the Gore Plaza. Full closure on both sides. Open space concept on both sides - people, transit, bikes all mixing on narrow streets with 'courtesy right of way' being the operating model (like George St in Hess).
Closure of King from James to Wellington.

Are you sure about James to Wellington? I thought it was only James to John, as an extension of Gore Park.

Boundaries aside, I don't think they should rush to any single decision right now. There are too many other factors that play into the plans for Gore Park. Will there be an LRT line? If so, will it use King St? Where will the bus terminal be? These are all multi-million dollar projects, and I'm worried that somehow, the first thing built will mess up plans for things to follow.

Gore Park, the LRT and the bus terminal all have to be planned together. Unfortunately, we didn't see a lot of that integrated planning at the info centre. I'm not saying that we needed final designs, but a few combination concept plans would have been nice.

On the plus side, some good ideas were being thrown around. While I still prefer a MacNab terminal, I made a point to bring up a Hunter Street terminal (in front of the GO Station), and maybe diverting the LRT through it. These ideas should sound very familiar to posters here. The consultants thought that it "could work." I almost feel sorry for them, because every time they present something, they find themselves presented with more options.

Maybe the decision makers should come by here for some ideas.

[raisethehammer]

yes, they said this will be done at the same time as rapid transit implementation.
James to Wellington was one of the options.
James to John was another option.
partial closure and full closure were other options too.

[raisethehammer]

info from the public meeting the other night:

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/AD80255C-21E3-426B-BAEC-F7D4FDF22ED3/0/DTMPPIC2Boards20080318.pdf

[SteelTown]

Nice!

When I go home I'll cut and paste some of the images here.

What I don't understand is that they say westbound traffic will increase on Cannon, but don't they plan on keeping Cannon one way (that's according to the plan here).

[raisethehammer]

a lot of stuff they say is bogus.
Like, check the charts for capacity vs actual travel levels on York/Wilson.
These guys are fixated on keeing the capacity WAY higher than the actual use, and they are fixated on keeping rush hour traffic at a high speed.
I'm interested in the mid-day travel patterns to base a street redesign. Not the 2 hours of rush hour each day, which should be slower for single occupancy cars anyhow.

[SteelTown]

They do seem to really suggest that the future East/West rapid transit line will be going along King Street.

I don't mind the shared Gore Park. But I don't see the point in having the South section of King S open to traffic when the Northern part is closed (just public transit). That would require drivers to drive the South section of King and turn North on James to hop back on King St. Why not just force drivers to keep driving on John until Wilson and than turn westbound.

If they keep the South section open to cars a majority of drivers will just turn on Wilson instead anways. Keeping the South section open just sounds like a way to make a parking lot.

[raisethehammer]

yea, I'm sure that was in there to appease the morons at the downtown BIA who are probably horrified by these images of cobblestone, cafes, patios, skating rinks and people (gasp!!!) in their downtown. Where are all the cars????? How will we survive without the cars?????

[raisethehammer]

my vision for the north leg of King....shared space between LRT, pedestrians, bikes etc..... no cars though.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/noelle_bond/177117219/sizes/o/in/set-72157594176917965/

Have a merry-go-round, and ice skating rink. vendors, patios, cafes, ice cream etc..... very similar to one of the proposals put forth by the city.
The south leg of Gore could be closed to vehicles entirely, other than bikes, deliveries etc..... and have lots of patio/stall space.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_Road%2C_Brighton_-_shared_space.jpg

Transit, instead of cars though.

[SteelTown]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore1-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore2-1.jpg

[SteelTown]

I would choose the second option but close the South section of King St to all traffic. Just public transit would be able to go along Northern section of King St. Have the main future LRT stop by Gore Park, would be a kickass location for a downtown LRT terminal.

[SteelTown]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore3-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/wheretogo.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/cannon.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/schedule.jpg

[raisethehammer]

I get a kick out of that 2003 vision for Cannon St....wow. really impressive.
Keep 4 lanes of flying trucks and cars and slap up some nice lights and trees. haha.
Yea, I agree with you about Gore - LRT stop at Gore, peds/bikes only on the south leg.

[matt602]

I'm not a fan of how James, John and Hughson just dead-end at the Gore. Seems a little too dramatic and I fear it will kill the dynamics of those streets (probably moving crap loads of traffic onto Bay, Wellington and other North-South arteries)'

edit: now it seems that only Hughson would actually be dead ending. That thing is a little hard to read...

[raisethehammer]

hmm, you aren't reading it properly. James and John will continue to function as full 2-way streets.
Hughson is the only one that is cut-off at Gore. The folks at the public meeting mentioned this the other day. The only way they would get cut off is with the option to close King from James-Wellington, which won't happen.
In fact, this would help John St...they could just put it to 2 lanes each way instead of having that 3rd turning lane onto King. No more bottlenecks for transit turning left onto King...buses that need to turn there would have right of way and be turning onto a transit-peds only street.
This plan would greatly enhance public life, transit and cycling in Hamilton while putting cars into a more appropriate scale and speed for an urban downtown.
Supposedly the city is choosing their transit 'technology' by June or July. I hope they go with LRT and we can get this ball rolling.

[raisethehammer]

more Gore Park visions:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/petergutierrez/1006326942/sizes/l/

north leg of King: http://www.flickr.com/photos/herwigphoto/2331826971/
south leg of King: http://www.flickr.com/photos/reflexionvive/260054670/

[HAMRetrofit]

I get a kick out of that 2003 vision for Cannon St....wow. really impressive.
Keep 4 lanes of flying trucks and cars and slap up some nice lights and trees. haha.
Yea, I agree with you about Gore - LRT stop at Gore, peds/bikes only on the south leg.

I think what canon really needs is a 120km/hr speed limit and integration with pedestrians. Then is will really become a destination. I get so frustrated sometimes.

[Millstone]

I think what canon really needs is a 120km/hr speed limit and integration with pedestrians. Then is will really become a destination. I get so frustrated sometimes.

What Cannon needs is an obstacle course for added fun.

[mishap]

yes, they said this will be done at the same time as rapid transit implementation.
James to Wellington was one of the options.
James to John was another option.
partial closure and full closure were other options too.

OK, thanks. I missed the Wellington option.

I would go with full closure between James and John, except for transit and time-restricted deliveries. Having said that, I wouldn't want the time restrictions to be excessively harsh. You have to let businesses, well, do business. A lot of smaller places just don't have the necessary clout to tell their suppliers they want their goods at a specific hour. Any time between the rush hour periods seems reasonable.

Between John and Wellington, I would keep King open to traffic. As drivers learn they can't pass John St., they'll find other routes. However, I would introduce a queue-jump for buses (and LRT) crossing Wellington westbound. Oh, and the speed limit drops to 40km/h.

As for Hughson, there is the odd vehicle that needs to use that street, short of the city paying to rebuild entrances/ exits on other streets. In that case, impose a very low speed limit, like 15-20km/h, to discourage through traffic. Soft curbs wouldn't hurt either, encouraging pedestrians to use more of the road when traffic is not present. I would stay away from speed bumps, as they would discourage pedestrians, and they're just ugly.

The general impression I got from the meeting is that MacNab is still the preferred bus terminal location, though Hunter and the GO Station are still in the running. Assuming they go with MacNab for the terminal, and King for the LRT, here's an idea that's a little different. Use the south side of King for the LRT line, and run it right into the terminal. This takes the line off of King from MacNab to John, and keeps it out of the King/ James intersection. I admit there may be space concerns, but it's a thought.

[raisethehammer]

I agree with your thoughts. Deliveries should be allowed on both stretches of King...we'll just have to get these delivery guys and UPS guys to stop driving like bloody animals and slow down through here.
I really don't think traffic will be all that clogged up on King at Wellington. People WILL go alternate ways. Back at Sherman it is a few hundred meters to Cannon. Wilson is planned to go two-way and I'm going to suggest they make it two-way to Victoria instead of Wellington for any sleep-drivers who forgot that King isn't a highway/through street anymore. They can go up Victoria to Wilson OR Cannon.
Also, at Wentworth, one can head south and pick up Charlton which goes right across to Dundurn. We have ample road capacity in lower Hamilton, which generally drives me nuts. But now it's allowing us to do something fabulous like this in our downtown without causing major headaches...it will simply require that people learn their new (just as quick) routes. This is exciting...it has the potential to change how we function as a city. Gore Park can become the centre of the city once again for dining/culture/shopping/cafes/nightlife/entertainment/festivals etc.....

[SteelTown]

I personally don't mind the vision for Cannon St. Maybe 3 lanes instead of 4 but considering parts of King St will be closed for traffic I guess 4 lanes will be needed.

I know under the plan from Bay to James Cannon would be "Cannon Village" and from James to John I believe it would be the Asian Village or China Town.

King St W should still go two way but instead of 2 lanes for each direction have it instead 2 lanes Westbound, 1 lane for transit lane - Westbound and 1 lane Eastbound.

[SteelTown]

Here's what I would like....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/gore334.jpg

Northern section of King St closed to traffic expect public transit. Southern section of King St closed to all traffic.

Hughson with trolley service to connect TH&B Station and future GO/VIA Station at Liuna Station.

[markbarbera]

Personally I like the idea of restricting King traffic through from James to Wellington. I can envision this stretch of King as pedestrian and transit only, with both directions of LRT running along it. The eastbound LRT can come in from West Hamilton/McMaster along Main, veer north along MacNab then east along King to Wellington, then south on Wellington to return to eastbound Main. Westbound LRT can run the entire stretch along King as per the current B-Line route.

Converting the entire stretch shouldn't be done immediately though. Just start off with restricting traffic between James and John, then extend the stretch to Wellington in conjunction with LRT construction.

[raisethehammer]

the more I think about it, I think the LRT should come along Main, both ways on the north curb. Then go up Hughson to King, along King to McNab and back to Main through McNab.
Hughson and the north leg of King would only be for transit/peds anyhow. The one block on King from James to McNab we could have the LRT lanes on the south curb of King.
As for the trolley idea, I think it should still run along James North from the waterfront/ VIA-GO station and then at Wilson go over to Hughson, along Hughson to Hunter GO Station. Remember, Wilson will be two-way so this route can be used both directions. I wouldn't want the trolley on Hughson all the way up to the north end. Just to Wilson in order to take advantage of the pedestrianized Gore and show it off to passengers as well as avoid the busy stretch of James from King to Wilson.

[DC83]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore1-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/gore2-1.jpg

I don't like either option, to be honest.

Why do they have to spend so much money re-doing the park again? I have a simple solution to pedestrianize Gore Park for as little money as possible... add decorative (removable) blockades at John and at James (such as the ones they currently use pictured below to the left of the hot dog stand)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2341730299_3d4eb761f6.jpg?v=0
courtesy Isra2008 on flickr.com

Gore Park does not need to be redesigned AGAIN! The park is beatiful as-is. Also, I don't think another permanant water-feature is needed. I don't want it to take away from the gorgeous fountain we currently have.

I'm not a fan of pedestrianizing the North section of King either. Sure Hamiltonians will be able to enjoy a car-free downtown... but will restrict passers-by from seeing what is probably our greatest street.

My final decision (and what I will email to Bratina):
- Pedestrianize the south-leg of Gore (removable blackades for delivery trucks, special events cars/trucks, etc)
- Make the north-leg of King two-way to calm traffic
- Keep Gore Park the way it is with the option of adding a removable/temporary ice rink for winter time (preferably ON the street itself)
- Then over-saturate Gore Park with as many festivals/events that can fit during the festival season (one week-long event per week betwene Jun-Oct should be good)

[Millstone]

Sorry guys, I'm not really fond of the idea of completely removing car traffic from King either. It's a main thoroughfare.

[raisethehammer]

you both make the arguement FOR closure of the north leg.

"Hamilton's greatest street"
"It's a main thoroughfare"

right now only the second statement is true. This COULD be our greatest street. Why isn't it?
Because it's a main thoroughfare.
Main, Hunter, Cannon, Wilson and Barton are all main thoroughfares right nearby. Let's let King Street become our greatest street and most vibrant district.

[SteelTown]

The city must convert York/Wilson to two way and redo Cannon St. After that then close the Northern section of King St. Once the new transit terminal opens immediately close the Southern section of King St.

The 403 entrance from York on High Level Bridge will greatly increase so the province will likely be forced to redo the 403 entrance at High Level Bridge.

[raisethehammer]

The city must convert York/Wilson to two way and redo Cannon St. After that then close the Northern section of King St. Once the new transit terminal opens immediately close the Southern section of King St.

The 403 entrance from York on High Level Bridge will greatly increase so the province will likely be forced to redo the 403 entrance at High Level Bridge.


why would that ramp from 403 need to be redone?? it's fine.

[SteelTown]

^ Not a complete redo just a few fixer upper for the entrance as more traffic will be added, likely will need to extend the on ramp to the 403 so it can handle more cars merging on 403 instead of backing cars all through the entrance ramp.

[Millstone]

you both make the arguement FOR closure of the north leg.

"Hamilton's greatest street"
"It's a main thoroughfare"

right now only the second statement is true. This COULD be our greatest street. Why isn't it?
Because it's a main thoroughfare.
Main, Hunter, Cannon, Wilson and Barton are all main thoroughfares right nearby. Let's let King Street become our greatest street and most vibrant district.

It's because people speed right through it at 70 km/h between John and everything west. Just calm the traffic a little bit and see what happens. How are people even going to know it's there if you can't drive through it? Hamilton has a huge suburban (read: car-owning) population that isn't always keen on taking HSR through the city.

I mean it's literally taking a park and putting stores and hotels and malls around it. It's a tough sell to Joe Taxpayer.

How about this, turn the south and north parts into one-way angled parking. Come in from the east and leave on the west. No through traffic. Keep James, John, Hughson open. Turn Hughson two-way between King and Wilson so you can pick it up off Wilson.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Yeah--honestly I can't believe this ridiculous plan is still being discussed. This Forum is always cursing out the city for "old" thinking--this sort of pedestrianization was out of vogue even before Buffalo did in the 80s--it was a 60s and 70s phenomenon--and short of Minneapolis I can't think of a single place where it has worked well--cities are scrambling to reopen streets to traffic. Completely backward and illogical--I'm astonished.

[DC83]

^^ I somewhat agree with Fastcars on this one.
I'm 110% FOR ped'ing Gore Park and 'its' King St (south-leg). But why the north-leg? It doesn't make sense!? Even though I don't drive and am a huge booster for Public Transit & Green Living, people (ESPECIALLY visitors) need to drive thru our downtown. THEN they can get out and walk around and appreciate all it has to offer.

How many times have you been driving along and decided, "Ooh there's "whatever-ville" or "random-town", I'm gonna pull off the Highway and check it out since I have nothing better to do!? I know I have, and read it quite often while reading the comments on the My City Pictures section of the forum. If the north-leg og King St were closed completely to traffic, we'd make those random visitors drive along Main or even worse, Wilson/Cannon. So instead of being able to drive slow enough to see our great stock of historic buildings, an awesome urban park, crazy street-activity for a city of 500,000... they'll drive slow enough to see decrepit houses, crack heads or if they drive along Main they'll see a bunch of empty lots and an empty city hall (for now anyway).

Slow traffic along King(north), prohibit traffic to (south)King, and let EVERYONE (drivers AND peds) enjoy our Gore Park!

ps: If they close traffic to the north-leg of King, I could see a 'Buffalo-Main Street' effect. However, if they leave traffic along that section and close Gore Park, I could see a 'Montreal-Place Jacques-Cartier' effect!

Main St, Buffalo:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1388/1009671446_27eeaae2fa.jpg?v=0
from KCA on flickr.com, http://flickr.com/photos/kca/1009671446/

Place Jacques-Cartier, Montreal
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/516707787_70f85c4d6b.jpg?v=0
from Mike_Cohn on Flickr.com, http://flickr.com/photos/jazzone/516707787/

(I searched thru 9 pages to find a more vibrant Main St, Buffalo w/ no luck)

PJC in Mtl is bordered by 4 streets... of course it's in Old Montreal so traffic crawls down there (narrow, cobblestone streets full of gorgeous historic blgds). So I think (imo of course) (north)King St would THRIVE on a setting similar to PJC (slow traffic, ped'ized public square) rather than shutting off traffic and hiding a gem from passers-by!

[raisethehammer]

first of all, this is nothing like what Buffalo did, so the comparison is mute.
secondly, more cities around the world are converting streets to pedestrian only, or shared space at an incredible rate right now. it's not an 80s thing. it's the way of the past, and mercifully, the way of the future.

third, people will know it's there because it 2 blocks of Gore Park, not 15 blocks of King St. people will still drive in their cars on james and john as well as 2-way on King on either side of this small area. many suburban folks work in the downtown office towers nearby and will love having this space at their doorstep.
Finally, while not everyone will take HSR, many people will hop on LRT. Many more people within a 15 minute walk of Gore will walk and cycle over on new cycle-friendly streets like King, Wilson, York and Hunter.

Ask car-addicted, suburbanites if they know where Hess Village is? I bet they all do, and have come downtown to go there more than anywhere else (other than work). Same setup - 2 blocks long with ample street capacity nearby.
this would help revitalize the Gore. Those who want to be selfish and keep the entire city held hostage because they are too lazy to turn right at Sherman or Victoria have had their day. The 1 minute delay on their trip is FAR worth the positive this will do for our downtown. As we all know, none of those people stop downtown anyhow. I for one, am sick of gearing our whole downtown around them. Their opinion doesn't matter and their speed-through vehicle doesn't matter. The health of our city is what matters.

[markbarbera]

This Forum is always cursing out the city for "old" thinking--this sort of pedestrianization was out of vogue even before Buffalo did in the 80s--it was a 60s and 70s phenomenon--and short of Minneapolis I can't think of a single place where it has worked well--cities are scrambling to reopen streets to traffic.

Well, some cities are scrambling to close streets to traffic for new and expanded existing pedestrian areas because of their success. From my own personal travels I can add the following cities to the list of those with successful neighbourhoods with limited traffic (i.e traffic restricted to pedestrian and transit):

London
Glasgow
Manchester
Dublin
Chicago
New York
Boston
Las Vegas
Rome
Montreal
Quebec City
Halifax

There may be some examples of failed pedestrian conversions, but there are many more exaples of very successful ped conversions. However, Sparks Street in Ottawa really cannot be included on the list of failures. If anything, its success has been tempered perhaps by a concept put in place a tad ahead of its time.

As economic and environmental conditions, combined with changing lifestyles, continue to make personal automobile travel options more restrictive and less desireable, this concept will continue to gain in popularity.

[SteelTown]

If you read the report you'll see successful examples of pedestrianized areas.

With Hamilton it can work because Gore Park is exactly that, A PARK. This will expand Gore Park. In other places they just closed down the streets and hope people will be attracted to that area.

Also this is only for 3 blocks, John, Hughson and James. That's not a lot compared to other successful examples of pedestrianized areas. Perhaps if it works it'll expand down to Wellington.

[JT Jacobs]

Well, some cities are scrambling to close streets to traffic for new and expanded existing pedestrian areas because of their success. From my own personal travels I can add the following cities to the list of those with successful neighbourhoods with limited traffic (i.e traffic restricted to pedestrian and transit):

London
Glasgow
Manchester
Dublin
Chicago
New York
Boston
Las Vegas
Rome
Montreal
Quebec City
Halifax

There may be some examples of failed pedestrian conversions, but there are many more exaples of very successful ped conversions. However, Sparks Street in Ottawa really cannot be included on the list of failures. If anything, its success has been tempered perhaps by a concept put in place a tad ahead of its time.

As economic and environmental conditions, combined with changing lifestyles, continue to make personal automobile travel options more restrictive and less desireable, this concept will continue to gain in popularity.

The key here is *limited* traffic, not the entire elimination of such from around the Gore. If traffic is completely cut off then the result will be an insular area that is economically impoverished.

Hamilton's downtown economy cannot sustain zero traffic anywhere. Having some traffic ensures an appropriate level of vehicle-dependent commerce while still giving the overwhelming priority to pedestrians and cyclists. Driving at a crawl pace forces drivers to look at streets and signs; when they see something intriguing, they pull over because it's no real waste of time for them (then they spend) because they're going so slow anyway. But on a street like Main with timed lights, the urge is to gun it and get through fast, without any stops.

The real problem is, as Raise the Hammer and many others have articulated, that roads like Main acting as inner city expressways are disastrous to the core economy.

So, it seems to me that the issue is primarily how much traffic is allowed through the Gore, not the total elimination of it. Give the priority to pedestrians and cyclists, but allow a trickle of traffic, too.

[raisethehammer]

The key here is *limited* traffic, not the entire elimination of such from around the Gore. If traffic is completely cut off then the result will be an insular area that is economically impoverished.

Hamilton's downtown economy cannot sustain zero traffic anywhere. Having some traffic ensures an appropriate level of vehicle-dependent commerce while still giving the overwhelming priority to pedestrians and cyclists. Driving at a crawl pace forces drivers to look at streets and signs; when they see something intriguing, they pull over because it's no real waste of time for them (then they spend) because they're going so slow anyway. But on a street like Main with timed lights, the urge is to gun it and get through fast, without any stops.

The real problem is, as Raise the Hammer and many others have articulated, that roads like Main acting as inner city expressways are disastrous to the core economy.

So, it seems to me that the issue is primarily how much traffic is allowed through the Gore, not the total elimination of it. Give the priority to pedestrians and cyclists, but allow a trickle of traffic, too.


I agree with these thoughts, but see the actions from a slightly different angle.
There still will be slower moving traffic through this area. On James and John and on King both E and W of the Gore.
transit will still be allowed with deliveries and cyclists/peds etc... right now cars have nowhere to stop. adding parking along here isn't practical or useful use of land.
It's 2 short blocks. All the way to Wellington would become an insular stretch without much life, but right now the Gore has no parking. we aren't removing any parking infrastructure for cars. it still exists all around the Gore. this is a people place and should become one more fully, but shared with LRT and bikes.

[the dude]

given the amount of foot traffic in the core and how readily accessible it is by public transit, the area will not be a ghost town.

personally, i would go even further. the area bounded by james, wilson, king and wellington is ripe for this sort of limited access development. it's a blank slate and would be a great experiment in car-free living. car-free areas are great successes when there's ample parking around its periphery and when they're accessed by public transit, particularly trams. they also require a high population density, which we don't have quite yet...but we're working on it. let's be trend-setters for once and show north america how it's done.

[Millstone]

given the amount of foot traffic in the core and how readily accessible it is by public transit, the area will not be a ghost town.

personally, i would go even further. the area bounded by james, wilson, king and wellington is ripe for this sort of limited access development. it's a blank slate and would be a great experiment in car-free living. car-free areas are great successes when there's ample parking around its periphery and when they're accessed by public transit, particularly trams. they also require a high population density, which we don't have quite yet...but we're working on it. let's be trend-setters for once and show north america how it's done.

I don't mean to be a NIMBY, but I didn't move here so you could take away my car. Maybe take the "great experiments" to SimCity. =)

[matt602]

So far the plans I'm seeing are just a bit too dramatic. I think Gore Park should be left alone in it's current state. King is also fine, it's not usually a quick or incredibly wide thoroughfare except for later at night.

I think Main St. needs to be focused on immediately. Some wide sidewalks, street-side parking and beautification coupled with future LRT. Something to reflect what was done with Bay St.

In the future the area around Gore should be tinkered with, but we've definitely got a good thing going there right now. Let's let the density build a bit and see what the current projects do to the area before we start changing it dramatically. Both of the big residential projects on King East, London Taps, Foster Building and the eventual Connaught project should change things a lot. Their progress may be hampered if things get altered too much in the near future.

[raisethehammer]

FYI...none of the projects you mention - Taps, Foster, King East rez and Connuaght will be affected at all by this plan. This is such a small plan in such a small, parking-free area that it boggles my mind that some want to make the area even smaller. Should we just close the south leg from James to Hughson and leave the rest?? why bother.
If anything I'd love to see the city work with someone like Stinson...perhaps he might want to see the LRT come through his property on the Catharine side as it goes from Main to King (in my plan).
Local residents would have parking access, just like in Hess, underneath or behind their buildings if necessary.

I'm stunned at the comment that 'we have a good thing going right now'. We do?? I haven't seen a legit business open up on the north side of King between James and John in ages. The retail through here is lame. A plan like this coupled with the Connaught and other projects could be the catalyst for making this the retail heart of the city again.

[DC83]

In the future the area around Gore should be tinkered with, but we've definitely got a good thing going there right now. Let's let the density build a bit and see what the current projects do to the area before we start changing it dramatically. Both of the big residential projects on King East, London Taps, Foster Building and the eventual Connaught project should change things a lot. Their progress may be hampered if things get altered too much in the near future.

"in the future..." exactly! I agree w/ you 100% on everything you said.
Currently, there isn't much to warrant blocking traffic completely from King... besides a nice stock of heritage buildings.

Worry about the Main St Expressway, LRT & other traffic calming measures first. Shut off the south-leg of King as the experiment... then years down the road when we have lots of two-way streets, lots of big-name retail along King, and LOTS more residents & tourists downtown, then worry about pedestrianizing main streets. For now, let's concentrate on Gore Park!

[matt602]

RTH, the "good thing we have" that I was referring to is Gore Park and King St. I don't pin the suffering retail situation downtown on either of them, in fact I'd go as far as to say they are both keeping things together downtown. Stinson said it himself: King St. is an awesome street in it's current state, as is Gore Park. It just needs some development around it to bring it out. You underestimate the projects that I listed. I think they'll have more of a positive impact on the downtown than any of us thought they would. Time will tell.

The only change to Gore Park that I really think is needed currently is getting the buses out of there. Once that is done it will be much quieter and enjoyable. Some more emphasis can be put on parking in the South leg, but for the most part it will be considered a "shared use" street. Once the buses are out the cobblestone needs to be re-laid, post haste. The buses have absolutely chewed up the old stones, they're all popping up and chipped up especially around Hughson.