[flar]

After decades of protest, legal wrangling and construction, The Red Hill Valley Parkway opens this weekend. Opening ceremonies include a charity marathon, so ironically, Hamiltonians' first look at the new highway will be on foot.

http://www.hamiltonmarathon.ca/mediacentre.html

A map:
http://www.hamiltonmarathon.ca/red%20hill%20files/EWNS-2linePlot%5B1%5D.pdf

Some info about the highway
http://www.hamiltonmarathon.ca/red%20hill%20files/RedHillValleyProject%5B1%5D.pdf

[SteelTown]

A peek of the Expressway from sonysnonb at SSC....

http://www.onthighways.com/Hamilton/RHVP_Oct07_2_lg.jpg

http://www.onthighways.com/Hamilton/RHVP_Oct07_3_lg.jpg

[LikeHamilton]

November 3rd is the official opening.

November 16th is the day the highway opens to traffic. The original opening date was November 24th.

Because MTO is a year behind in construction, people will not be able to access the highway from the QEW when coming from Toronto. This is because they have not finished the new Burlington Street and Woodward Avenue bridges. They have to still remove the old Burlington Street bridge in order to widen the highway and build the new ramps/collector lanes.

[raisethehammer]

so, what the heck good is this thing for the next year??

[LikeHamilton]

People going north on the Red Hill will be able to go onto the QEW to Niagara and Toronto bound.
People coming from Niagara will be able to come onto the Red Hill and go South up the mountain to the link.
People from Toronto will not be able to get on to the Red Hill. The city was not happy with this, as it was procrastination on MTO’s part that caused the delay of construction at the QEW. They where pushing for a temporary ramp before the end of the construction season but I do not know how they made out.

[raisethehammer]

oh brother....great planning there.
yea, that's the least important ramp in the whole thing. From TO back into Hamilton.

[coalminecanary]

don't worry, they can just use main street through downtown instead. why bother with a ramp at all?

HAR

[SteelTown]

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/redhill.jpg

[raisethehammer]

wow...I can't believe it's done.
no more hikes following deer and wild-life down there.

[matt602]

I think it looks damn nice.

[flar]

It will be a great drive heading north on the highway, overlooking the Lake.

[raisethehammer]

I don't think you'll actually be able to see the lake.
The one picture above with the lake in the background looks like it was taken from an elevated position over the highway, not road level.
At any rate, I hope it's nice for those of you who get to use it. After all, I'm paying just as much to never drive on it. Lucky me.

[BCTed]

At any rate, I hope it's nice for those of you who get to use it. After all, I'm paying just as much to never drive on it. Lucky me.

Where's my violin?

[DC83]

After all, I'm paying just as much to never drive on it. Lucky me.

I used to pay NOTHING to hike/bike/play in there... pretty sad. I spent most of my childhood playing in this ravine.

If you need a violin, Ted, I can direct you to a couple stores? I suggest Payne Music in International Village ;)

[Rathgrith]

Don't worry I'm sure you can have tons of fun playing Frogger between the cars.

[raisethehammer]

DiIanni is such a moron.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/276303

Centre Mall is nowhere near Red Hill.
Everyone else seems willing to wait 5 years or so to see if this thing was worth it...not good ole' Larry! It's his way or the highway!
Thank you once again people of Hamilton for voting with your brains (for once) in the last election.

[the dude]

a good reporter would have asked di ianni to elaborate on that statement about centre mall. i can't figure out the connection either. a lowe's? you gives a damn? he gets way too much media attention in this town.

[raisethehammer]

if his first election was a referendum on Red Hill, then his second election was a referendum on him.
And the people have spoken...we turfed him and don't care what he thinks.

[SteelTown]

The second election was with two pro Red Hill (Fred and Larry)

The first election was with one pro Red Hill and one aganist Red Hill (Chris and Larry).

Larry lost the last election because of Joanne Chapman.

[the dude]

^and only by a hair. that's what's so scary about this town.

[SteelTown]

Yea that was quite a night. Watching Terry Cooke go all "Looks like Larry is in the lead"....."Okay folks Fred is in silm lead now"......"Looks like Larry is gonna win it"....."Fred is the new Mayor of Hamilton"

HAHA had to watch his facial expression.

[SteelTown]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/redhillphoto.jpg

[raisethehammer]

brutal

[Berklon]

DiIanni is such a moron.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/276303

Centre Mall is nowhere near Red Hill.

I'm guessing he means that you can get off the Red Hill Expressway at Barton, do a u-turn and drive down Barton 5 minutes to Centre Mall. Not exactly convenient, but it's not that far time-wise.

[the dude]

"road2hope" marathon tomorrow at redhill. sponsored by................losani homes!!!!! damn skippy it is.

[SteelTown]

Red Hill Valley Parkway debuts
November 04, 2007

Thousands of runners marked the official opening of the Red Hill Valley Parkway this weekend.

After the Road to Hope race Saturday morning, about 150 people gathered at the Red Hill Bowl to mark the road’s competition after 50 years of debate.

“There were moments when we wondered if we would ever have this day,” said Chris Murray, who managed the parkway’s construction.

“It’s hard to believe it’s over.”

The controversial four-lane parkway, which cost $225 million to build, will open to vehicle traffic on Nov. 16.

Only three protesters were visible at yesterday’s event, which was well attended by local dignitaries and politicians. Among those in attendance were former mayors Jack MacDonald, Larry Di Ianni and Bob Morrow, local MPPs and MPs, former Lieutenant-Governor Lincoln Alexander, current and former city councillors and dozens of city staff.

The second half of the Road to Hope marathon takes place today.

[raisethehammer]

It's hard to believe that we're still building highways to nowhere.

[SteelTown]

Half of the money went into improving the Creek, cleaning up the Harbour and improving the Red Hill Valley (more tress will be there than before the expressway). So it has it's positive side.

[raisethehammer]

there WON'T be more trees.
that's what they keep saying in their brochures, but they tore down 60,000 huge, mature trees. In that 'tear down' count, they didn't count all the little seelings and whips.
They are replanting with only seedlings and whips, of course. many of which won't survive.
Some estimates say that 200-300,000 seedlings would have been torn out along with the 60,000 mature trees.
Its lunacy for anyone to try to tell us that paving over a fifth of the valley will somehow result in more trees in the area.
It's physically impossible.
And like many other things related to this project, it's a blatant lie.

[raisethehammer]

ps, money SHOULD have been spent on improving the harbour and cleaning up the valley.
It's again, a blatant lie (and insult to our intelligence) to make it sound like the only possible way to clean the harbour and valley was to build a highway through it.
I don't hear the Port Authority telling us that we need to destroy Cootes Paradise in order to fix Randle Reef. It's illogical.

[the dude]

amen, brother.

[SteelTown]

It's human nature for one to be against one issue and continue to be against it until the end. From my perspective I see benefits of this and I'm not going to list them as they’ll simply be barked down. I'm just glad this divisive issue is FINALLY over with and the city can move on with new issues.

Just so you know 1 million trees will be planted that's more than “Some estimates say that 200-300,000 seedlings would have been torn out along with the 60,000 mature trees". It's up to the Six Nations people to ensure each and every tree survives.

Remember one of the off ramps on the Red Hill is Barton St, what street is Centre Mall located on? What street is the new Lowe's on?

[the dude]

this issue all comes down to what we deem to be more important. if it's a lowe's, allowing east mountaineers better access to centre mall, or providing u.s. truckers a quicker route through s ontario, then you're laughing. if you value an irreplaceable forest ecosystem that's home to all manner of wildlife and helps to make our wretched air breathable, then you're screwed. in any case, the remaining trees and particularly the seedlings, will not grow well in the high air pollution levels that will result from the opening of the expressway. this issue is not 'finally' over. it's only just begun.

[raisethehammer]

yup....it'll be interesting to see how the media spins health effects and traffic effects on this part of the city over the next few years.
Remember - the city would NOT allow an air monitoring station to be set up at a local school to see what happens to the air over the next several years. I wonder why???

[Berklon]

I understand the value of Red Hill, but without the expressway - how are cars/trucks supposed to move around this city without impacting our streets? Isn't that essentially the purpose of the expressway? What alternatives were available?

I know people who drive trucks and they're excited about the expressway and plan to use it (with hookup to the LINC) to get their shipments around the city. Not everything about that project is negative... and this is coming from someone who lives right by the Red Hill Expressway.

[raisethehammer]

Berklon...you're right...that's the best thing that will come out from this project.
the city still needs to redo truck routes in order to make them use it and get them out of downtown. I wonder if council has the gonads to actually do that, even though it's a no-brainer. I'm holding out hope for that though....will be a great improvement for city life downtown.

[Jon Dalton]

I'll believe it when I see real employment opportunities open up from businesses locating along that road. Although, we could commute to lucrative jobs in Oakville just as quickly, and with excellent public transit access already in place.

[DC83]

this project is the biggest mistake this city has ever made!
All it does it create a faster route for Toronto commuters to get to their upper stoney creek townhouses.

Upper Stoney Creekers will NOT shop at Centre Mall, they will drive to Lowes, get back on the Pkwy to their shelters, err homes and discuss how scary it was to be on Barton St. I grew up in Uppr SC, and therefor talk to my mom, her neighbours, my friends, their rents, etc. Almost all of which say they would most likely not shop at the new Centre. I say, "But they're going to have a Great Canadian Superstore!!" they respond, "So... there's a mega-Fortinos with all the same stuff right around the corner!?" and so on...

DiIanni's only agenda for building this Pkwy was so that he had an excuse to allow sprawl in the Upp SC area and use it as a catylist for the Mid-Pen Hwy. DiIanni's a crook, and this Pkwy is nothing but giant waste of money!

How many LRT lines could we have built with the money it took to build this (unfinished) peice of crap!?!

[DC83]

ps: this tree planting thing is also a blatant lie, 100%.

I think I read somewhere a while back that a big percentage of the trees being planted were going in around the city and not even in the valley!? I dunno if there's any truth to this, but I can see it being the case. I think DiIanni just boosted the tree planting budget rather than specifically designating them for the Valley.

Also, even IF they plant trees along the Pkwy, how many will actually survive? Look at the Linc as an example. How many of the trees they planted survived or grew at all??

[Berklon]

Well it's pretty much a moot point since the expressway is done (for the most part). I guess it's a wait and see kinda thing. I live right next to it so I can tell you first hand if the air is noticeably worse or not a while after it's in full swing.

All it does it create a faster route for Toronto commuters to get to their upper stoney creek townhouses.

I'm not sure that's all it does, but it definitely does that. A friend of mine (and a few of his acquaintences) are happy about being able to use the expressway on their commute to/from work as they live in Stoney Creek mountain and dread using Highway 20 (especially in the winter) to get to Burlington's GO Station.

Coincidentally a co-worker who lives in Milton (works in downtown Toronto) has expressed interest in moving to somewhere in the east mountain. When he asked about the commute to Toronto, I mentioned the expressway and that made him think even more seriously about moving here.

[Cambridgite]

Well it's pretty much a moot point since the expressway is done (for the most part). I guess it's a wait and see kinda thing. I live right next to it so I can tell you first hand if the air is noticeably worse or not a while after it's in full swing.



I'm not sure that's all it does, but it definitely does that. A friend of mine (and a few of his acquaintences) are happy about being able to use the expressway on their commute to/from work as they live in Stoney Creek mountain and dread using Highway 20 (especially in the winter) to get to Burlington's GO Station.

Coincidentally a co-worker who lives in Milton (works in downtown Toronto) has expressed interest in moving to somewhere in the east mountain. When he asked about the commute to Toronto, I mentioned the expressway and that made him think even more seriously about moving here.

The Red Hill Valley Pkwy - Paving the way for Hamilton to become yet another bedroom community.

I mean come on (Hamilton council), if you want to handle the commuter problem, at least get the MTO to spend the money on having an actual GO- "TRAIN" in downtown Hamilton. I give this highway two thumbs down. :maddown: :maddown:

[BCTed]

It's hard to believe that we're still building highways to nowhere.

It's funny that the highway to nowhere actually attaches to another highway once it gets to nowhere --- it turns out that nowhere is not actually a dead end. And its also funny that tens of thousands of people live near each highway's access points.

What would you have done to get trucks up and down Hamilton Mountain?

[BCTed]

Remember one of the off ramps on the Red Hill is Barton St, what street is Centre Mall located on? What street is the new Lowe's on?

I can't imagine that whatever is happening at Centre Mall was dependent in any way upon the construction of the Red Hill expressway. I also don't really think it had a huge impact on the decision to build a Lowe's store on Barton, but maybe.

[BCTed]

yup....it'll be interesting to see how the media spins health effects and traffic effects on this part of the city over the next few years.
Remember - the city would NOT allow an air monitoring station to be set up at a local school to see what happens to the air over the next several years. I wonder why???

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Somedays I'm really glad you're around BCTed.

[DC83]

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

Well Ted, with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

Do you even live in this city, Ted? It seems your comments are generally ignorant towards the city?! (ie: no trucks zooming down Main St downtown)

[markbarbera]

Guys, time to let bygones be bygones. I was no fan of the expressway, but it is here now and, like it or not, it will impact positively on the city.

Hamilton needed a proper beltway to direct heavy traffic around the city and off core streets. Trips into the city can now spoke in from a circular route - RHE, LINC, 403, QEW. This gives us the opportunity to improve inner city roads. With the completion of this project, we can now look at calming King and Main Streets, reduce inner city speed limits, limiting truck traffic through the core via King, Main, Victoria/UpperJames, returning two-way traffic to King and Main, and allowing LRT to occupy lanes on King/Main. None of this could be practically obtained without a ring road around the city.

[Berklon]

Well Ted, with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

The people living in those houses would still be using vehicles if they lived in other parts of the city and/or the expressway wasn't created. I don't see how this will increase airborn pollutants overall... it'll just increase it in the areas near the expressway. Overall there'll still be the same amount of people using their cars, they'll just be using it in different areas.

[raisethehammer]

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

I can't believe there's still people around who don't understand this most basic of concepts:
highways attract MORE cars. They don't minimize traffic and they don't simply re-shuffle existing cars. They ADD more cars and more pollution to the city. If you don't believe me (and I know you won't) go read any studies on traffic impacts of highways....give it 3-5 years and there will be traffic jams on the highway AND surrounding streets. that's fact, proven time and time again in our society.

Re: trucks - I'd have built the upper deck over Centennial at a quarter of the cost and still linking QEW to Linc. Council didn't want to go with that option though (despite it's saving of the valley AND drastically reduced cost) because Losani and Desantis don't own land along Hwy 20. They already bought up their land at the top of Red Hill. Remember, you and I and the trucks didn't factor into this decision. Ultimately it was what the homebuilders told their puppets on council to do.

[fastcarsfreedom]

RTH--you're going to have to help me out on this one--how exactly would double-decking Centennial Parkway have ended up being cost-effective? As an advoacte of new-urbanism I would've expected that you'd realize that elevated highways are being REMOVED all-across North America for aesthetic and maintenance reasons. Over the long term how would maintaining what amounts to a long bridge, be cheaper? Are you aware of the exponential repair and maintenance costs associated with these sort of structures--particularly in cold climates? Have you drive on the Gardiner Expressway? Have you driven UNDER the Gardiner Expressway? If you're choosing to fight this battle on cost--how do you justify this argument with real numbers? If you're choosing to fight this battle on air quality--how do you justify what you deem to be toxic emissions, simply moving further east to Stoney Creek? Seems to me this is the old "Skyway should've been a tunnel" argument all over again.

In an only slightly related note, I cannot believe the moribund tenor this forum has taken of late. I am more convinced than ever that the real bridle holding back Hamilton from a more prosperous future is this grim, miserable, dour and negative attitude. While you are quick to point fingers at "suburban" residents who refuse to go Downtown--just put yourself in the position of someone outside the city and read this forum? It seems to me that 90% of the arguments about sprawl and development are branded as being "especially bad" in Hamilton--while in reality you can go anywhere and find the same trends--I'm not passing judgement on your opinion--you're entitled--let's just say there's Wal*Mart everywhere, not just Hamilton.

I hold up London, Ontario as an example--with all do respect (I generally don't like taking swipes at other towns)--London does not have nearly the diversity, population or physical beauty that Hamilton has--yet it is rare to find a Londoner that is not completely boastful about how wonderful their city. That is the RIGHT attitude--everyplace has it's warts, the sooner Hamilton stops dwelling on it's own...the better.

[DC83]

^^ AMEN, rth!!!!

Today's Spec Poll:

Today's Poll »


Will the Red Hill Valley Parkway improve life in Hamilton?
Yes (75.00 %)
No (24.51 %)

wow... you know you're in Hamilton when!! haha

Last time I checked, increased air pollution did not "improve life" anywhere!!

[raisethehammer]

sorry..I should have clarified. the 'upper deck over centennial' wasn't my idea.
it was developed by some local engineers at Mac (you'd have to look back through the mess of Red Hill info to find it) and their total construction cost estimates were between 1/4 and 1/3 of Red Hill. Obviously i'm no fan of upper deck highways, but you can be sure that other cities that are taking them down aren't taking them down along strips like Centennial.
ongoing costs would need to be figured out I'm sure...they'll be high in both cases. it was basically a 1 or 2-lane truck 'flyover' if I remember correctly.

I'd suggest that if the forum isn't the exact 'tone' you'd like it may be because some folks are suggesting that "it's over now...lets move on".
fact is construction is over. now comes the real 'proof of the pudding'. should this road have died once and for all in the 50's or will it be a blessing to Hamilton's economy. As a side note: it will be a nice little convenience for those who live along it, but that doesn't make it better for our economy. hopefully it will take trucks off local roads - that would be good.
air quality will probaby worsen - bad.
traffic congestion will worsen - bad.
more sprawl will occur on the east mountain- bad.
(cross your fingers for this one) Thousands of well-paying, high end manufacturing jobs will locate into the glanbrook industrial park - good.

on and on the list goes...now is the time to observe and see what happens.
I have no problem with that at all. In fact, I can't wait.

[coalminecanary]

The people living in those houses would still be using vehicles if they lived in other parts of the city and/or the expressway wasn't created. I don't see how this will increase airborn pollutants overall... it'll just increase it in the areas near the expressway. Overall there'll still be the same amount of people using their cars, they'll just be using it in different areas.

No! If they lived in other parts of the city they wouldn't necessarily be using vehicles.

If effort (and money) was focussed on things such as:
-Building code reform (allowing mixed use buildings)
-Transit improvements (specifically rail)
-Creating land tax laws that do not favour vacant lots and surface parking
-Attracting businesses to the core (through tax incentives, neighbourhood cleanup, etc)

Then people and businesses would have a reason to locate INSIDE the city where they don't need to drive so far on a day to day basis.

Instead we are focussed on making it easier and cheaper for businesses to locate at the far reaches of the city limits, and that will end up costing ALL of us in the long run!

[Da Warrior]

I am in no way picking on you DC83, just stating what I know.

this project is the biggest mistake this city has ever made!
All it does it create a faster route for Toronto commuters to get to their upper stoney creek townhouses.

Upper Stoney Creekers will NOT shop at Centre Mall, they will drive to Lowes, get back on the Pkwy to their shelters, err homes and discuss how scary it was to be on Barton St. I grew up in Uppr SC, and therefor talk to my mom, her neighbours, my friends, their rents, etc. Almost all of which say they would most likely not shop at the new Centre. I say, "But they're going to have a Great Canadian Superstore!!" they respond, "So... there's a mega-Fortinos with all the same stuff right around the corner!?" and so on...


You make it seem like anyone in Hamilton really cares about Centre mall, besides the people that live within a 20 min walk of Centre Mall. I know it sounds sad and messed up, but it's true and this coming from someone that works at Centre Mall. Serious ask anyone about the Centre Mall Reno that doesn't live in the immediate area, and if they will shop there when it's done and this is what you'll get :haha:.


with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

Simple answer as to why people don't use public transit in that area is that service sucks plan and simple. What other part of Hamilton has as poor transit per capita? Remember HSR only serves a very small part of Upper Stoney Creek only West of Upper Centennial, not to mention no service in Binbrook/Glanbrook.

If I’m not mistaken they have 2 bus routes in the area. Stonechurch runs I think every 30mins and once an hr after 6pm No Sunday service (this is all off the top of my head I apologize if I’m wrong). With Parkdale running every 30 mins and once an hour after 8pm.


Now I think this will improve vastly as that area is one of the top priorities for HSR, so there must be a demand there. It could see 2 new routes, Rymal Rd bus is a go for next year (Peak hour service at first, and possibly a bus route from Eastgate all the way up cenntenial into the area.

This HGWY definitely has it pros and cons but I’m going to embrace it even though it should have been built how many years ago.

[BCTed]

Somedays I'm really glad you're around BCTed.

Right back at you, fastcarsfreedom. I am glad that everyone is around.

[BCTed]

Do you even live in this city, Ted? It seems your comments are generally ignorant towards the city?! (ie: no trucks zooming down Main St downtown)

However ignorant I may or may not be, I have never claimed that there are no trucks on downtown Main Street. I have simply not observed any real truck traffic --- certainly nothing to get into hysterics over.

[BCTed]

I can't believe there's still people around who don't understand this most basic of concepts:
highways attract MORE cars. They don't minimize traffic and they don't simply re-shuffle existing cars. They ADD more cars and more pollution to the city. If you don't believe me (and I know you won't) go read any studies on traffic impacts of highways....give it 3-5 years and there will be traffic jams on the highway AND surrounding streets. that's fact, proven time and time again in our society.

Re: trucks - I'd have built the upper deck over Centennial at a quarter of the cost and still linking QEW to Linc. Council didn't want to go with that option though (despite it's saving of the valley AND drastically reduced cost) because Losani and Desantis don't own land along Hwy 20. They already bought up their land at the top of Red Hill. Remember, you and I and the trucks didn't factor into this decision. Ultimately it was what the homebuilders told their puppets on council to do.

This highway does not extend into any new areas --- it is a brief stretch of road that accesses existing, mostly urban, parts of the city. I do not buy DC83's argument that this road will take people off of buses and put them into cars. If the total amount of automobile traffic increases as a result of this highway, then I imagine it will have increased as a result of an influx of people and/or businesses --- something like that would be a good thing on the whole.

This is the first that I have heard about an upper deck over Centennial Parkway. It sounds prohibitively expensive and I do have trouble believing that a raised highway would be less expensive than one built mostly on the ground. Any links?

As for the tone around here, there is often a "my way or the highway" type of attitude on display by some of the more militant types. I will gladly take the highway.

[flar]

This road will change Upper Stoney Cr. East Hamilton and the East Mountain. There will be tons of development, ablbeit not the kind most of us on this board like. The thing to do now is push for more enlightened development at the southern terminus of RHVP.

It will make some residential areas of East Hamilton more attractive. Ask the average person and they like living close to highway access. The only reason Lowes and the Centre Mall redevelopment are happening is really because of the highway. These places also locate near highway access because that's how they can increase their potential customer base.

This highway makes it easier to commute to Burlington, Oakville and Mississauga (TO is still too far). Many Hamiltonians work in these places, because industries and offices located along the QEW and 403, instead of Hamilton, because they like to be located along highways. Many companies moved from Hamilton to these locations.

Now Hamilton has more land with highway access and I see no reason why industries will not locate within Hamilton now. Manufacturing especially relies on just in time delivery, which means trucks, and shipping costs are reduced when the trucks can easily access the industries along highways.

This is the reality, it's like this everywhere. While I don't believe this is an excuse to pave over a big valley, that damage is now done. It is essential for the long term health of Hamilton that we attract more employment. The city will never realize its potential with so much poverty and underemployment. With anything, there is a hierarchy of needs, and the basic need of many Hamiltonians is a decent job.

The net effect of the highway is likely to be positive: fewer trucks on city streets, more jobs, increasing real estate values in east Hamilton (which increases the equity and spending power of those residents), increasing population, higher tax base for the city, more construction, more disposable income, etc. All these things make Hamilton's economic picture look better, and this is all that is important to banks and investors, who may one day even loan money to people for downtown projects.

[SteelTown]

^ well said! :tup:

[raisethehammer]

However ignorant I may or may not be, I have never claimed that there are no trucks on downtown Main Street. I have simply not observed any real truck traffic --- certainly nothing to get into hysterics over.

:haha:

[Jon Dalton]

Try living on King St. and trying to get to sleep at night. Then you will notice how many trucks there are.

[SteelTown]

The funniest moment had to be when Paul Wilson from the Spec was doing a video special and was standing at Main/John St and this double loaded truck whips by behind him, loud and banging away. This was during BC Ted debate about trucks on Main St. Friggin hilarious.

[DC83]

The funniest moment had to be when Paul Wilson from the Spec was doing a video special and was standing at Main/John St and this double loaded truck whips by behind him, loud and banging away. This was during BC Ted debate about trucks on Main St. Friggin hilarious.

hahaha And then he said someone "photoshopped" it in! hahaha

And ya, it's true... the damage is done. No sense of continuing the "to build or not to build" debate. I'm just very upset that it was.

And ya, Warrior, I know TOO well how crappy HSR service is up there. I grew up in the Upper Creek, and had to walk up Mt Albion (no sidewalks) many times just to get home. Now it's going to be even more inconvenient once they shut down the access.
But that's (primarily) why I moved downtown: convenient public transit access. It's just unfortunate that most people up there take the alternative route and buy a car rather than relocate. But those people also have to pay for cabs when they're downtown partying ;) I walk home for free!! haha

upper SC is already going thru a huge commercial boom, and I have actually heard that the new development at Paramount/Winterberry area will actually have retail mixed with med-density apt bldgs. I'm (unsuccessfully) trying to find the plans online... anyone have a copy?

[SteelTown]

hahaha And then he said someone "photoshopped" it in! hahaha

I knew he was kidding around but oh that was damn funny. Everybody is going around saying "see! see! prove!" and he goes "photoshopped!" haha

[the dude]

This road will change Upper Stoney Cr. East Hamilton and the East Mountain. There will be tons of development, ablbeit not the kind most of us on this board like. The thing to do now is push for more enlightened development at the southern terminus of RHVP.

It will make some residential areas of East Hamilton more attractive. Ask the average person and they like living close to highway access. The only reason Lowes and the Centre Mall redevelopment are happening is really because of the highway. These places also locate near highway access because that's how they can increase their potential customer base.

This highway makes it easier to commute to Burlington, Oakville and Mississauga (TO is still too far). Many Hamiltonians work in these places, because industries and offices located along the QEW and 403, instead of Hamilton, because they like to be located along highways. Many companies moved from Hamilton to these locations.

Now Hamilton has more land with highway access and I see no reason why industries will not locate within Hamilton now. Manufacturing especially relies on just in time delivery, which means trucks, and shipping costs are reduced when the trucks can easily access the industries along highways.

This is the reality, it's like this everywhere. While I don't believe this is an excuse to pave over a big valley, that damage is now done. It is essential for the long term health of Hamilton that we attract more employment. The city will never realize its potential with so much poverty and underemployment. With anything, there is a hierarchy of needs, and the basic need of many Hamiltonians is a decent job.

The net effect of the highway is likely to be positive: fewer trucks on city streets, more jobs, increasing real estate values in east Hamilton (which increases the equity and spending power of those residents), increasing population, higher tax base for the city, more construction, more disposable income, etc. All these things make Hamilton's economic picture look better, and this is all that is important to banks and investors, who may one day even loan money to people for downtown projects.

the elephant in the room that no one's talking about is the price of oil. we're fast approaching $100/barrel and that price will soon reflect itself in the price of gas. the cheap oil age is over, at least that's what experts in the fields of geology, physics and finance are saying. but what do i know? if we're facing a future where driving will be less and less feasible, then this highway will be a massive bust. we may see some short term success in the area warehousing and other shit employers like maple leaf but that's likely to be it. it's also unlikely to alleviate poverty in hamilton. how will the poor of the lower city get to these new jobs on the periphery of town? i think this highway will continue the perpetuation of hamilton as a dirty, stinking industrial city. and in our so-called post-industrial world, that's bad for the economy.

[raisethehammer]

oh, don't worry about it... just tune into CNN...everything's fine. Keep buying SUV's. keep moving into the middle of nowhere. it'll all work out....

[BCTed]

I knew he was kidding around but oh that was damn funny. Everybody is going around saying "see! see! prove!" and he goes "photoshopped!" haha

:)

[BCTed]

the elephant in the room that no one's talking about is the price of oil. we're fast approaching $100/barrel and that price will soon reflect itself in the price of gas. the cheap oil age is over, at least that's what experts in the fields of geology, physics and finance are saying. but what do i know? if we're facing a future where driving will be less and less feasible, then this highway will be a massive bust. we may see some short term success in the area warehousing and other shit employers like maple leaf but that's likely to be it. it's also unlikely to alleviate poverty in hamilton. how will the poor of the lower city get to these new jobs on the periphery of town? i think this highway will continue the perpetuation of hamilton as a dirty, stinking industrial city. and in our so-called post-industrial world, that's bad for the economy.

Cars are not going away anytime soon.

[the dude]

talk to me in 5 years. actually, don't.

[raisethehammer]

cars will still be around, but will begin to become more used among wealthy folks...or those willing to really bring on the debt load for their regular fill-up.
transit can snag some of these people as casual/part time riders to offset the increase.

[matt602]

wow this expressway is getting so much hate. it really is quite ridiculous considering how small it is. hell, main street has more lanes in it than most portions of this thing.

[HAMRetrofit]

Cars will become more fuel efficient and alternative fuels will be used. They they will still be around long into the future and will adapt to market conditions. This is the reality. Highways will continue to be built and widened in the future.

The argument for more public transit and better urban design based on energy depletion is wishful thinking propigated by the gloom and doom theories of 'new urbanists'.

For a meaningful argument for these things start talking about quality of life, civic amenities, city economics, environmental damage, global warming, and all those other fun things. Societal changes of value will be the only thing that changes anything.

[the dude]

alternative fuels...care to elaborate?

[raisethehammer]

yes, I'm interested in this too....most alternative fuels are energy intensive and the ones that are useful are being developed about 50 years too late.
FYI - the average US car is LESS efficient today than it was in the 1980's or 70's. we're going the wrong way.

And for the record, I HATE MAIN STREET way more than Red Hill. Now that we've built our last highway, let's get onto a multi-million dollar LRT baby!

[HAMRetrofit]

My point was that if people still value driving and living in large homes in suburbia economies of scale will make it possible in new ways. There are billions of dollars in research and innovation occuring ready to make this possible.

I am an urbanist, but I realize nothing is going to change unless real action is taken to provide more desirable living arrangments in cities otherwise people will continue to demand what is already available. This is the reason that I feel that this depletion of energy agenda is counter productive. There are far better arguments to be made than fossil fuel depletion for sustainable development. Its not that I don't think that it is an issue but there are more pressing things in the world with more obvious threats. IMO

[DC83]

alternative fuels...care to elaborate?

I think every oil company is at least looking into ethanol fuel. There's also Hydrogen... that's all I know for now.

Saskatchewan wants to be the next boom province, so they're really hoping ethanol fuel research speeds up. Imagine their endless fields of corn... they could supply half the world with it's fuel!

Hamilton and Ontario could also cash in on this... of course this is only if the Province wants to actually stand behind it's Greenbelt "legislation".

[flar]

The problem with ethanol is it takes a lot of energy to make it (farmers need fuel for tractors and combines,etc..) so hopefully it won't be the fuel of the future.
A completely different type of engine needs to be developed, and hopefully will. The combustion engine has run its course. Look at the fancy technology around us, yet our cars are dirty, oily smelly machines belching out smoke, and they break all the time.

[raisethehammer]

much like suburban sprawl, ethanol is almost impossible to produce without massive subsidies.
Furthermore, poor folks around the world may be forced to starve so we can fill up our cars:

http://www.mexidata.info/id1243.html

[raisethehammer]

I notice the Spec is doing this timeline of Red Hill history lately.
I'm guessing they won't dwell on this time period:

Start at the bottom and read up.
I'd like to get more info as to why the province was so intent on this highway being built? Sounds like the city was going to go ahead with the east/west route, but not Red Hill.
Also, it could have been MUCH worse...check out the plans for 5 new expressways across Hamilton.


June 1979 - Region releases six possible alternative routes for north-south expressway. All six go through the Red Hill Valley. Nine other alternatives, including three other north-south locations were eliminated internally without public input.

1978 - Region begins study of potential locations for East-West and North-South expressways. General Manager of the Hamilton Region Conservation Authority resigns from the committee in protest.

1977 - Council votes to allow Red Hill Valley location to be considered after provincial government withdraws funding subsidy for land acquisition for the East-West expressway.

1975-1977 - Continuous pressure from provincial Conservative government to reinstate valley route for north-south expressway. Three additional votes by Council confirm 1974 decision, but by decreasing majorities.

1974 - Hamilton City Council and the newly-formed Regional Council vote unanimously to "to retain the natural character of the Red Hill Creek Valley and to maintain permanently its present natural state". Motion adopted to remove valley expressway from the Official Plan. East-West expressway retained.

1973 - Clear Hamilton of Pollution (CHOP) and City of Hamilton jointly sponsor public walk in the Red Hill Valley. Politicians who participate (including Bob Morrow) state opposition to expressway plans.

1972 - CHOP organizes environmental inventory of natural areas in Hamilton.

1971 - Spadina Expressway cancelled.

1964 - Council adopts recommendations of Hamilton Area Transportation Study (1963) for five new expressways in Hamilton including Red Hill Expressway (east of the valley) and Highway 53 Freeway (cross-mountain). Others are a Stoney Creek Expressway, an "East-West Expressway" through lower Hamilton, and a "North-South Expressway" across the escarpment in central Hamilton.

1956 - Consultant company proposes "Red Hill Expressway" to run from King Street to QEW along valley. Plan is supported by City Council but dropped in 1958.

1947 - Hamilton's first Official Plan recommends purchase of remaining portion of Red Hill Valley as an eastern greenspace buffer. These purchases are completed in the 1950-51 by the Hamilton Board of Park Management.

1929 - City of Hamilton purchases southern half of Red Hill Valley (King's Forest Park) at the urging of Thomas B. McQuesten, a member of the Parks Board. McQuesten is eventually credited as the father of the Royal Botanical Gardens, the father of the Niagara Parks system and the father of the QEW (built while he was Minister of Tranport in the provincial cabinet).

[raisethehammer]

Thomas B. McQueston wouldn't be enjoying this today...

[the dude]

perhaps, but i believe that mcquesten was the minister of transport when the qew was built, so who knows what he was thinking. that sort of schitzophrenic behaviour might have been easier to understand then than it is now.

[flar]

I think McQuesten was also involved in the Bluewater bridge in Sarnia and one of the bridges over the Niagara. He liked infrastructure apparently.

[raisethehammer]

I think he had a good balance, at least what I've picked up in learning about him....nature areas were important and infrastructure was important.
the strip along the QEW was already being developed...brides into the USA are obviously important.
He's responsible for the mountain brow being preserved as parkland, the RBG, high level bridge....I'm guessing he would never have dreamt of building a highway through the valley.

[fastcarsfreedom]

If the "5 Freeways" had been built you wouldn't have your dreaded one-way street system.

McQuesten was a genius in many ways who saw the balance between infrastructure and aesthetics and he was a great admirer of Frederick Law Olmstead. To say McQuesten would've railed against constructing a highway through the valley is nothing short of a cross between fantasy and revisionist history. McQuesten was about BUILDING first and foremost--he just saw the benefit of beautification in the process. High Level Bridge is a great example of this, as is the Niagara Parkway and the original QEW design work. I'm an infrastructure fanatic (surprise)...and I am willing to confess that the loss of the "style and design" element in infrastructure projects is unfortunate.

[raisethehammer]

If the "5 Freeways" had been built you wouldn't have your dreaded one-way street system.

McQuesten was a genius in many ways who saw the balance between infrastructure and aesthetics and he was a great admirer of Frederick Law Olmstead. To say McQuesten would've railed against constructing a highway through the valley is nothing short of a cross between fantasy and revisionist history. McQuesten was about BUILDING first and foremost--he just saw the benefit of beautification in the process. High Level Bridge is a great example of this, as is the Niagara Parkway and the original QEW design work. I'm an infrastructure fanatic (surprise)...and I am willing to confess that the loss of the "style and design" element in infrastructure projects is unfortunate.


o great..instead of the one-way system we would have had freeways tearing through the lower city. great tradeoff.
I happen to believe that there were more than those 2 options for Hamilton to choose from - proper city streets with proper transit was a great option. Toronto chose this path, and gee whiz, they seem to have survived - granted, their downtown core and neighbourhoods aren't nearly as healthy as Hamiltons. We simply blew it here.

I'm a big fan of Olmstead too...great design work.
Today's park systems and infrastructure is a load of crap. Slabs of ugly concrete. scrawny little trees tossed in as an afterthought. no public space. no beauty. just utilitarian all the way.

[matt602]

granted, their downtown core and neighbourhoods aren't nearly as healthy as Hamiltons.

Whoa, whoa... what? Am I reading this wrong or are you saying Toronto's downtown and neighbourhoods are not as "healthy" as Hamilton's?

:sly:

[raisethehammer]

Whoa, whoa... what? Am I reading this wrong or are you saying Toronto's downtown and neighbourhoods are not as "healthy" as Hamilton's?

:sly:

haha...no sir. I was being sarcastic. It's so much harder to write sarcastically as opposed to speaking.

The Spec has a video up now about Red Hill. Kind of long, but worth the watch.
I think Don MacLean read my mind with his final statement - this is embarassing.

www.thespec.com

[DC83]

Wow, Don Mclean makes SO much sense...
Too bad the city looks upon him as a joke!

Mike Marini - Community Relations Manager RHVP, "...environmentally, it's a showcase!"
Ummm... didn't the building of this hwy kill off the Flying Squirrell population in the Valley??

[LikeHamilton]

Latest info on the opening copied from a memo to emergency services personnel (Police, Fire, EMS).

The Red Hill Valley Parkway (RHVP) is scheduled to open to vehicular traffic on Saturday November 17, 2007. The northbound direction will open at approximately 8:00 a.m. and the southbound direction will follow thereafter.

Please note that the RHVP will be opened from the LINC to the QEW; however, the ramp from QEW Toronto to RHVP southbound will not be opened until the fall of 2008. As you may be aware, the Ministry of Transportation is responsible for the construction of the RHVP interchange with the QEW as well as the QEW reconstruction between the Burlington Street interchange and the Centennial Parkway interchange.

The new alignment of Mount Albion Road between Hixon Road and Lawrence Road will be opened on Monday November 19, 2007 at 5:00 a.m. Concurrently, Mount Albion Road will be closed to vehicular traffic between the bus turnaround south of Glen Castle Drive and the intersection of Old Mud Street/Cornerstone Drive.

:)

[raisethehammer]

I'll have to head over to that part of town and see what's happening with Mt Albion. Sounds pretty good...turning to a bike/pedestrian street all the way up the escarpment.

[DC83]

Mount Albion Road will be closed to vehicular traffic between the bus turnaround south of Glen Castle Drive and the intersection of Old Mud Street/Cornerstone Drive.

A pedestrian trail/stairs would be very welcome in this area. There is currently no stairs going up the escarpment in this area, and most ppl climb up the hill in Felker's Falls Park (I know I used to when I was a teenager). It's the only access to/from the Stoney Creek Mountain if you don't have a car.

[fastcarsfreedom]

With all due respect RTH, Toronto built several major freeways across it's urban area--namely the Gardiner and the DVP, as well as the 427 to the west. Granted the full freeway plan (Eastern Gardiner, Spadina, Allen) was never completed--but the city built major north/south and east/west arteries. Montreal, a city often praised here for it's walkability and urban character is lacerated every which way by MULTIPLE east/west and north/south freeways.

"Proper" urban streets and "proper" transit are great--but they don't solve the reality of needing to move cars (I know you hate them). Like it or not, the one-way street system was the alternative to more freeways...end of story. I would argue that the lack of gridlock and lack of long, frustrating drives and waits at red lights actually contribute to quality of life...but that is a matter of opinion we are unlikely to agree on. That being said, the current set-up of QEW/403/LINC/RHVP does provide multiple NS and EW routes around the area--which has the potential to greatly reduce "in transit" traffic in the downtown core--and that may well allow "two-way-ing" of King and Main to be viable in the future. Personally I like the effect two-way traffic has had on John and James--all I ever asked for were alternatives before any traffic calming on those streets.

[coalminecanary]

"two-waying" main and king should have been part of the rhvp plan then. The two way switch should be thrown at the same time as the parkway opens up.

Every day that we wait is another day of increased traffic on the parkway, and another argument by car lovers AGAINST two-waying those streets because "we need to move cars through the city". Highways have a magnetic attraction to traffic. That parkway WILL fill up. We need to act now to make it impossible for main and king to once again become the overflow routes for through traffic.

[SteelTown]

You'll have to wait until 2010 when King St West goes two way. After that Hamilton will have a planned out and likely construction for rapid transit along Main St, meaning a new streetscape and a plan for Main St will arise.

[coalminecanary]

fingers crossed... i'm willing to wait. However the pessimist in me thinks 2010 is too optimistic ;-)

[raisethehammer]

I'd be thrilled if we did that by 2010. I'd be thrilled if we did it by 3010. City hall loves the one-ways, and fast traffic. It'll be a big uphill battle to convert them regardless of how many new highways we build.

[SteelTown]

King St W is going two ways, that was determined like 5 years ago but we have to wait until 2010. There's even a website towards the plan.

Main St well I don't know. But by 2010 Hamilton will likely have developed a blueprint for the rapid transit. The first wave of MoveOntario 2020 cash comes in 2013, though I think Dalton bumped it to 2012 now. Also it appears on the news the federal government will make a funding commitment of 1/3 funding of MoveOntario 2020 by the end of November, part of the $33 billion Infrastructure fund.

So by having a blueprint it means Main St will have to be configured to add a transit lane and the city always like to lump everything together at the same time so Main St will likely get a new streetscape at the same time as well. This will force councilors to reevaluate Main St.

[raisethehammer]

I think you might be right Steeltown...man, that would be great to start addressing Main St sooner, rather than later.

[matt602]

Just got back from a walk down to the Expressway at Barton. Everything is pretty much ready, the traffic lights are even working now. Looks pretty good.

[raisethehammer]

well, today the highway is supposed to open.
Never again will anyone be able to enjoy a peaceful walk in the valley.
East Hamilton residents would be advised to pick up a copy of the hiking trail guides from the tourism office downtown if you ever have the itch to get outdoors. The west end and Dundas Valley have just been bumped up another few notches as Hamilton's most desirable areas....you can hike until your heart's content with no overhead traffic.