[flar]

After decades of protest, legal wrangling and construction, The Red Hill Valley Parkway opens this weekend. Opening ceremonies include a charity marathon, so ironically, Hamiltonians' first look at the new highway will be on foot.

http://www.hamiltonmarathon.ca/mediacentre.html

A map:
http://www.hamiltonmarathon.ca/red%20hill%20files/EWNS-2linePlot%5B1%5D.pdf

Some info about the highway
http://www.hamiltonmarathon.ca/red%20hill%20files/RedHillValleyProject%5B1%5D.pdf

[SteelTown]

A peek of the Expressway from sonysnonb at SSC....

http://www.onthighways.com/Hamilton/RHVP_Oct07_2_lg.jpg

http://www.onthighways.com/Hamilton/RHVP_Oct07_3_lg.jpg

[LikeHamilton]

November 3rd is the official opening.

November 16th is the day the highway opens to traffic. The original opening date was November 24th.

Because MTO is a year behind in construction, people will not be able to access the highway from the QEW when coming from Toronto. This is because they have not finished the new Burlington Street and Woodward Avenue bridges. They have to still remove the old Burlington Street bridge in order to widen the highway and build the new ramps/collector lanes.

[raisethehammer]

so, what the heck good is this thing for the next year??

[LikeHamilton]

People going north on the Red Hill will be able to go onto the QEW to Niagara and Toronto bound.
People coming from Niagara will be able to come onto the Red Hill and go South up the mountain to the link.
People from Toronto will not be able to get on to the Red Hill. The city was not happy with this, as it was procrastination on MTO’s part that caused the delay of construction at the QEW. They where pushing for a temporary ramp before the end of the construction season but I do not know how they made out.

[raisethehammer]

oh brother....great planning there.
yea, that's the least important ramp in the whole thing. From TO back into Hamilton.

[coalminecanary]

don't worry, they can just use main street through downtown instead. why bother with a ramp at all?

HAR

[SteelTown]

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/redhill.jpg

[raisethehammer]

wow...I can't believe it's done.
no more hikes following deer and wild-life down there.

[matt602]

I think it looks damn nice.

[flar]

It will be a great drive heading north on the highway, overlooking the Lake.

[raisethehammer]

I don't think you'll actually be able to see the lake.
The one picture above with the lake in the background looks like it was taken from an elevated position over the highway, not road level.
At any rate, I hope it's nice for those of you who get to use it. After all, I'm paying just as much to never drive on it. Lucky me.

[BCTed]

At any rate, I hope it's nice for those of you who get to use it. After all, I'm paying just as much to never drive on it. Lucky me.

Where's my violin?

[DC83]

After all, I'm paying just as much to never drive on it. Lucky me.

I used to pay NOTHING to hike/bike/play in there... pretty sad. I spent most of my childhood playing in this ravine.

If you need a violin, Ted, I can direct you to a couple stores? I suggest Payne Music in International Village ;)

[Rathgrith]

Don't worry I'm sure you can have tons of fun playing Frogger between the cars.

[raisethehammer]

DiIanni is such a moron.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/276303

Centre Mall is nowhere near Red Hill.
Everyone else seems willing to wait 5 years or so to see if this thing was worth it...not good ole' Larry! It's his way or the highway!
Thank you once again people of Hamilton for voting with your brains (for once) in the last election.

[the dude]

a good reporter would have asked di ianni to elaborate on that statement about centre mall. i can't figure out the connection either. a lowe's? you gives a damn? he gets way too much media attention in this town.

[raisethehammer]

if his first election was a referendum on Red Hill, then his second election was a referendum on him.
And the people have spoken...we turfed him and don't care what he thinks.

[SteelTown]

The second election was with two pro Red Hill (Fred and Larry)

The first election was with one pro Red Hill and one aganist Red Hill (Chris and Larry).

Larry lost the last election because of Joanne Chapman.

[the dude]

^and only by a hair. that's what's so scary about this town.

[SteelTown]

Yea that was quite a night. Watching Terry Cooke go all "Looks like Larry is in the lead"....."Okay folks Fred is in silm lead now"......"Looks like Larry is gonna win it"....."Fred is the new Mayor of Hamilton"

HAHA had to watch his facial expression.

[SteelTown]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/redhillphoto.jpg

[raisethehammer]

brutal

[Berklon]

DiIanni is such a moron.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/276303

Centre Mall is nowhere near Red Hill.

I'm guessing he means that you can get off the Red Hill Expressway at Barton, do a u-turn and drive down Barton 5 minutes to Centre Mall. Not exactly convenient, but it's not that far time-wise.

[the dude]

"road2hope" marathon tomorrow at redhill. sponsored by................losani homes!!!!! damn skippy it is.

[SteelTown]

Red Hill Valley Parkway debuts
November 04, 2007

Thousands of runners marked the official opening of the Red Hill Valley Parkway this weekend.

After the Road to Hope race Saturday morning, about 150 people gathered at the Red Hill Bowl to mark the road’s competition after 50 years of debate.

“There were moments when we wondered if we would ever have this day,” said Chris Murray, who managed the parkway’s construction.

“It’s hard to believe it’s over.”

The controversial four-lane parkway, which cost $225 million to build, will open to vehicle traffic on Nov. 16.

Only three protesters were visible at yesterday’s event, which was well attended by local dignitaries and politicians. Among those in attendance were former mayors Jack MacDonald, Larry Di Ianni and Bob Morrow, local MPPs and MPs, former Lieutenant-Governor Lincoln Alexander, current and former city councillors and dozens of city staff.

The second half of the Road to Hope marathon takes place today.

[raisethehammer]

It's hard to believe that we're still building highways to nowhere.

[SteelTown]

Half of the money went into improving the Creek, cleaning up the Harbour and improving the Red Hill Valley (more tress will be there than before the expressway). So it has it's positive side.

[raisethehammer]

there WON'T be more trees.
that's what they keep saying in their brochures, but they tore down 60,000 huge, mature trees. In that 'tear down' count, they didn't count all the little seelings and whips.
They are replanting with only seedlings and whips, of course. many of which won't survive.
Some estimates say that 200-300,000 seedlings would have been torn out along with the 60,000 mature trees.
Its lunacy for anyone to try to tell us that paving over a fifth of the valley will somehow result in more trees in the area.
It's physically impossible.
And like many other things related to this project, it's a blatant lie.

[raisethehammer]

ps, money SHOULD have been spent on improving the harbour and cleaning up the valley.
It's again, a blatant lie (and insult to our intelligence) to make it sound like the only possible way to clean the harbour and valley was to build a highway through it.
I don't hear the Port Authority telling us that we need to destroy Cootes Paradise in order to fix Randle Reef. It's illogical.

[the dude]

amen, brother.

[SteelTown]

It's human nature for one to be against one issue and continue to be against it until the end. From my perspective I see benefits of this and I'm not going to list them as they’ll simply be barked down. I'm just glad this divisive issue is FINALLY over with and the city can move on with new issues.

Just so you know 1 million trees will be planted that's more than “Some estimates say that 200-300,000 seedlings would have been torn out along with the 60,000 mature trees". It's up to the Six Nations people to ensure each and every tree survives.

Remember one of the off ramps on the Red Hill is Barton St, what street is Centre Mall located on? What street is the new Lowe's on?

[the dude]

this issue all comes down to what we deem to be more important. if it's a lowe's, allowing east mountaineers better access to centre mall, or providing u.s. truckers a quicker route through s ontario, then you're laughing. if you value an irreplaceable forest ecosystem that's home to all manner of wildlife and helps to make our wretched air breathable, then you're screwed. in any case, the remaining trees and particularly the seedlings, will not grow well in the high air pollution levels that will result from the opening of the expressway. this issue is not 'finally' over. it's only just begun.

[raisethehammer]

yup....it'll be interesting to see how the media spins health effects and traffic effects on this part of the city over the next few years.
Remember - the city would NOT allow an air monitoring station to be set up at a local school to see what happens to the air over the next several years. I wonder why???

[Berklon]

I understand the value of Red Hill, but without the expressway - how are cars/trucks supposed to move around this city without impacting our streets? Isn't that essentially the purpose of the expressway? What alternatives were available?

I know people who drive trucks and they're excited about the expressway and plan to use it (with hookup to the LINC) to get their shipments around the city. Not everything about that project is negative... and this is coming from someone who lives right by the Red Hill Expressway.

[raisethehammer]

Berklon...you're right...that's the best thing that will come out from this project.
the city still needs to redo truck routes in order to make them use it and get them out of downtown. I wonder if council has the gonads to actually do that, even though it's a no-brainer. I'm holding out hope for that though....will be a great improvement for city life downtown.

[Jon Dalton]

I'll believe it when I see real employment opportunities open up from businesses locating along that road. Although, we could commute to lucrative jobs in Oakville just as quickly, and with excellent public transit access already in place.

[DC83]

this project is the biggest mistake this city has ever made!
All it does it create a faster route for Toronto commuters to get to their upper stoney creek townhouses.

Upper Stoney Creekers will NOT shop at Centre Mall, they will drive to Lowes, get back on the Pkwy to their shelters, err homes and discuss how scary it was to be on Barton St. I grew up in Uppr SC, and therefor talk to my mom, her neighbours, my friends, their rents, etc. Almost all of which say they would most likely not shop at the new Centre. I say, "But they're going to have a Great Canadian Superstore!!" they respond, "So... there's a mega-Fortinos with all the same stuff right around the corner!?" and so on...

DiIanni's only agenda for building this Pkwy was so that he had an excuse to allow sprawl in the Upp SC area and use it as a catylist for the Mid-Pen Hwy. DiIanni's a crook, and this Pkwy is nothing but giant waste of money!

How many LRT lines could we have built with the money it took to build this (unfinished) peice of crap!?!

[DC83]

ps: this tree planting thing is also a blatant lie, 100%.

I think I read somewhere a while back that a big percentage of the trees being planted were going in around the city and not even in the valley!? I dunno if there's any truth to this, but I can see it being the case. I think DiIanni just boosted the tree planting budget rather than specifically designating them for the Valley.

Also, even IF they plant trees along the Pkwy, how many will actually survive? Look at the Linc as an example. How many of the trees they planted survived or grew at all??

[Berklon]

Well it's pretty much a moot point since the expressway is done (for the most part). I guess it's a wait and see kinda thing. I live right next to it so I can tell you first hand if the air is noticeably worse or not a while after it's in full swing.

All it does it create a faster route for Toronto commuters to get to their upper stoney creek townhouses.

I'm not sure that's all it does, but it definitely does that. A friend of mine (and a few of his acquaintences) are happy about being able to use the expressway on their commute to/from work as they live in Stoney Creek mountain and dread using Highway 20 (especially in the winter) to get to Burlington's GO Station.

Coincidentally a co-worker who lives in Milton (works in downtown Toronto) has expressed interest in moving to somewhere in the east mountain. When he asked about the commute to Toronto, I mentioned the expressway and that made him think even more seriously about moving here.

[Cambridgite]

Well it's pretty much a moot point since the expressway is done (for the most part). I guess it's a wait and see kinda thing. I live right next to it so I can tell you first hand if the air is noticeably worse or not a while after it's in full swing.



I'm not sure that's all it does, but it definitely does that. A friend of mine (and a few of his acquaintences) are happy about being able to use the expressway on their commute to/from work as they live in Stoney Creek mountain and dread using Highway 20 (especially in the winter) to get to Burlington's GO Station.

Coincidentally a co-worker who lives in Milton (works in downtown Toronto) has expressed interest in moving to somewhere in the east mountain. When he asked about the commute to Toronto, I mentioned the expressway and that made him think even more seriously about moving here.

The Red Hill Valley Pkwy - Paving the way for Hamilton to become yet another bedroom community.

I mean come on (Hamilton council), if you want to handle the commuter problem, at least get the MTO to spend the money on having an actual GO- "TRAIN" in downtown Hamilton. I give this highway two thumbs down. :maddown: :maddown:

[BCTed]

It's hard to believe that we're still building highways to nowhere.

It's funny that the highway to nowhere actually attaches to another highway once it gets to nowhere --- it turns out that nowhere is not actually a dead end. And its also funny that tens of thousands of people live near each highway's access points.

What would you have done to get trucks up and down Hamilton Mountain?

[BCTed]

Remember one of the off ramps on the Red Hill is Barton St, what street is Centre Mall located on? What street is the new Lowe's on?

I can't imagine that whatever is happening at Centre Mall was dependent in any way upon the construction of the Red Hill expressway. I also don't really think it had a huge impact on the decision to build a Lowe's store on Barton, but maybe.

[BCTed]

yup....it'll be interesting to see how the media spins health effects and traffic effects on this part of the city over the next few years.
Remember - the city would NOT allow an air monitoring station to be set up at a local school to see what happens to the air over the next several years. I wonder why???

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Somedays I'm really glad you're around BCTed.

[DC83]

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

Well Ted, with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

Do you even live in this city, Ted? It seems your comments are generally ignorant towards the city?! (ie: no trucks zooming down Main St downtown)

[markbarbera]

Guys, time to let bygones be bygones. I was no fan of the expressway, but it is here now and, like it or not, it will impact positively on the city.

Hamilton needed a proper beltway to direct heavy traffic around the city and off core streets. Trips into the city can now spoke in from a circular route - RHE, LINC, 403, QEW. This gives us the opportunity to improve inner city roads. With the completion of this project, we can now look at calming King and Main Streets, reduce inner city speed limits, limiting truck traffic through the core via King, Main, Victoria/UpperJames, returning two-way traffic to King and Main, and allowing LRT to occupy lanes on King/Main. None of this could be practically obtained without a ring road around the city.

[Berklon]

Well Ted, with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

The people living in those houses would still be using vehicles if they lived in other parts of the city and/or the expressway wasn't created. I don't see how this will increase airborn pollutants overall... it'll just increase it in the areas near the expressway. Overall there'll still be the same amount of people using their cars, they'll just be using it in different areas.

[raisethehammer]

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

I can't believe there's still people around who don't understand this most basic of concepts:
highways attract MORE cars. They don't minimize traffic and they don't simply re-shuffle existing cars. They ADD more cars and more pollution to the city. If you don't believe me (and I know you won't) go read any studies on traffic impacts of highways....give it 3-5 years and there will be traffic jams on the highway AND surrounding streets. that's fact, proven time and time again in our society.

Re: trucks - I'd have built the upper deck over Centennial at a quarter of the cost and still linking QEW to Linc. Council didn't want to go with that option though (despite it's saving of the valley AND drastically reduced cost) because Losani and Desantis don't own land along Hwy 20. They already bought up their land at the top of Red Hill. Remember, you and I and the trucks didn't factor into this decision. Ultimately it was what the homebuilders told their puppets on council to do.

[fastcarsfreedom]

RTH--you're going to have to help me out on this one--how exactly would double-decking Centennial Parkway have ended up being cost-effective? As an advoacte of new-urbanism I would've expected that you'd realize that elevated highways are being REMOVED all-across North America for aesthetic and maintenance reasons. Over the long term how would maintaining what amounts to a long bridge, be cheaper? Are you aware of the exponential repair and maintenance costs associated with these sort of structures--particularly in cold climates? Have you drive on the Gardiner Expressway? Have you driven UNDER the Gardiner Expressway? If you're choosing to fight this battle on cost--how do you justify this argument with real numbers? If you're choosing to fight this battle on air quality--how do you justify what you deem to be toxic emissions, simply moving further east to Stoney Creek? Seems to me this is the old "Skyway should've been a tunnel" argument all over again.

In an only slightly related note, I cannot believe the moribund tenor this forum has taken of late. I am more convinced than ever that the real bridle holding back Hamilton from a more prosperous future is this grim, miserable, dour and negative attitude. While you are quick to point fingers at "suburban" residents who refuse to go Downtown--just put yourself in the position of someone outside the city and read this forum? It seems to me that 90% of the arguments about sprawl and development are branded as being "especially bad" in Hamilton--while in reality you can go anywhere and find the same trends--I'm not passing judgement on your opinion--you're entitled--let's just say there's Wal*Mart everywhere, not just Hamilton.

I hold up London, Ontario as an example--with all do respect (I generally don't like taking swipes at other towns)--London does not have nearly the diversity, population or physical beauty that Hamilton has--yet it is rare to find a Londoner that is not completely boastful about how wonderful their city. That is the RIGHT attitude--everyplace has it's warts, the sooner Hamilton stops dwelling on it's own...the better.

[DC83]

^^ AMEN, rth!!!!

Today's Spec Poll:

Today's Poll »


Will the Red Hill Valley Parkway improve life in Hamilton?
Yes (75.00 %)
No (24.51 %)

wow... you know you're in Hamilton when!! haha

Last time I checked, increased air pollution did not "improve life" anywhere!!

[raisethehammer]

sorry..I should have clarified. the 'upper deck over centennial' wasn't my idea.
it was developed by some local engineers at Mac (you'd have to look back through the mess of Red Hill info to find it) and their total construction cost estimates were between 1/4 and 1/3 of Red Hill. Obviously i'm no fan of upper deck highways, but you can be sure that other cities that are taking them down aren't taking them down along strips like Centennial.
ongoing costs would need to be figured out I'm sure...they'll be high in both cases. it was basically a 1 or 2-lane truck 'flyover' if I remember correctly.

I'd suggest that if the forum isn't the exact 'tone' you'd like it may be because some folks are suggesting that "it's over now...lets move on".
fact is construction is over. now comes the real 'proof of the pudding'. should this road have died once and for all in the 50's or will it be a blessing to Hamilton's economy. As a side note: it will be a nice little convenience for those who live along it, but that doesn't make it better for our economy. hopefully it will take trucks off local roads - that would be good.
air quality will probaby worsen - bad.
traffic congestion will worsen - bad.
more sprawl will occur on the east mountain- bad.
(cross your fingers for this one) Thousands of well-paying, high end manufacturing jobs will locate into the glanbrook industrial park - good.

on and on the list goes...now is the time to observe and see what happens.
I have no problem with that at all. In fact, I can't wait.

[coalminecanary]

The people living in those houses would still be using vehicles if they lived in other parts of the city and/or the expressway wasn't created. I don't see how this will increase airborn pollutants overall... it'll just increase it in the areas near the expressway. Overall there'll still be the same amount of people using their cars, they'll just be using it in different areas.

No! If they lived in other parts of the city they wouldn't necessarily be using vehicles.

If effort (and money) was focussed on things such as:
-Building code reform (allowing mixed use buildings)
-Transit improvements (specifically rail)
-Creating land tax laws that do not favour vacant lots and surface parking
-Attracting businesses to the core (through tax incentives, neighbourhood cleanup, etc)

Then people and businesses would have a reason to locate INSIDE the city where they don't need to drive so far on a day to day basis.

Instead we are focussed on making it easier and cheaper for businesses to locate at the far reaches of the city limits, and that will end up costing ALL of us in the long run!

[Da Warrior]

I am in no way picking on you DC83, just stating what I know.

this project is the biggest mistake this city has ever made!
All it does it create a faster route for Toronto commuters to get to their upper stoney creek townhouses.

Upper Stoney Creekers will NOT shop at Centre Mall, they will drive to Lowes, get back on the Pkwy to their shelters, err homes and discuss how scary it was to be on Barton St. I grew up in Uppr SC, and therefor talk to my mom, her neighbours, my friends, their rents, etc. Almost all of which say they would most likely not shop at the new Centre. I say, "But they're going to have a Great Canadian Superstore!!" they respond, "So... there's a mega-Fortinos with all the same stuff right around the corner!?" and so on...


You make it seem like anyone in Hamilton really cares about Centre mall, besides the people that live within a 20 min walk of Centre Mall. I know it sounds sad and messed up, but it's true and this coming from someone that works at Centre Mall. Serious ask anyone about the Centre Mall Reno that doesn't live in the immediate area, and if they will shop there when it's done and this is what you'll get :haha:.


with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

Simple answer as to why people don't use public transit in that area is that service sucks plan and simple. What other part of Hamilton has as poor transit per capita? Remember HSR only serves a very small part of Upper Stoney Creek only West of Upper Centennial, not to mention no service in Binbrook/Glanbrook.

If I’m not mistaken they have 2 bus routes in the area. Stonechurch runs I think every 30mins and once an hr after 6pm No Sunday service (this is all off the top of my head I apologize if I’m wrong). With Parkdale running every 30 mins and once an hour after 8pm.


Now I think this will improve vastly as that area is one of the top priorities for HSR, so there must be a demand there. It could see 2 new routes, Rymal Rd bus is a go for next year (Peak hour service at first, and possibly a bus route from Eastgate all the way up cenntenial into the area.

This HGWY definitely has it pros and cons but I’m going to embrace it even though it should have been built how many years ago.

[BCTed]

Somedays I'm really glad you're around BCTed.

Right back at you, fastcarsfreedom. I am glad that everyone is around.

[BCTed]

Do you even live in this city, Ted? It seems your comments are generally ignorant towards the city?! (ie: no trucks zooming down Main St downtown)

However ignorant I may or may not be, I have never claimed that there are no trucks on downtown Main Street. I have simply not observed any real truck traffic --- certainly nothing to get into hysterics over.

[BCTed]

I can't believe there's still people around who don't understand this most basic of concepts:
highways attract MORE cars. They don't minimize traffic and they don't simply re-shuffle existing cars. They ADD more cars and more pollution to the city. If you don't believe me (and I know you won't) go read any studies on traffic impacts of highways....give it 3-5 years and there will be traffic jams on the highway AND surrounding streets. that's fact, proven time and time again in our society.

Re: trucks - I'd have built the upper deck over Centennial at a quarter of the cost and still linking QEW to Linc. Council didn't want to go with that option though (despite it's saving of the valley AND drastically reduced cost) because Losani and Desantis don't own land along Hwy 20. They already bought up their land at the top of Red Hill. Remember, you and I and the trucks didn't factor into this decision. Ultimately it was what the homebuilders told their puppets on council to do.

This highway does not extend into any new areas --- it is a brief stretch of road that accesses existing, mostly urban, parts of the city. I do not buy DC83's argument that this road will take people off of buses and put them into cars. If the total amount of automobile traffic increases as a result of this highway, then I imagine it will have increased as a result of an influx of people and/or businesses --- something like that would be a good thing on the whole.

This is the first that I have heard about an upper deck over Centennial Parkway. It sounds prohibitively expensive and I do have trouble believing that a raised highway would be less expensive than one built mostly on the ground. Any links?

As for the tone around here, there is often a "my way or the highway" type of attitude on display by some of the more militant types. I will gladly take the highway.

[flar]

This road will change Upper Stoney Cr. East Hamilton and the East Mountain. There will be tons of development, ablbeit not the kind most of us on this board like. The thing to do now is push for more enlightened development at the southern terminus of RHVP.

It will make some residential areas of East Hamilton more attractive. Ask the average person and they like living close to highway access. The only reason Lowes and the Centre Mall redevelopment are happening is really because of the highway. These places also locate near highway access because that's how they can increase their potential customer base.

This highway makes it easier to commute to Burlington, Oakville and Mississauga (TO is still too far). Many Hamiltonians work in these places, because industries and offices located along the QEW and 403, instead of Hamilton, because they like to be located along highways. Many companies moved from Hamilton to these locations.

Now Hamilton has more land with highway access and I see no reason why industries will not locate within Hamilton now. Manufacturing especially relies on just in time delivery, which means trucks, and shipping costs are reduced when the trucks can easily access the industries along highways.

This is the reality, it's like this everywhere. While I don't believe this is an excuse to pave over a big valley, that damage is now done. It is essential for the long term health of Hamilton that we attract more employment. The city will never realize its potential with so much poverty and underemployment. With anything, there is a hierarchy of needs, and the basic need of many Hamiltonians is a decent job.

The net effect of the highway is likely to be positive: fewer trucks on city streets, more jobs, increasing real estate values in east Hamilton (which increases the equity and spending power of those residents), increasing population, higher tax base for the city, more construction, more disposable income, etc. All these things make Hamilton's economic picture look better, and this is all that is important to banks and investors, who may one day even loan money to people for downtown projects.

[SteelTown]

^ well said! :tup:

[raisethehammer]

However ignorant I may or may not be, I have never claimed that there are no trucks on downtown Main Street. I have simply not observed any real truck traffic --- certainly nothing to get into hysterics over.

:haha:

[Jon Dalton]

Try living on King St. and trying to get to sleep at night. Then you will notice how many trucks there are.

[SteelTown]

The funniest moment had to be when Paul Wilson from the Spec was doing a video special and was standing at Main/John St and this double loaded truck whips by behind him, loud and banging away. This was during BC Ted debate about trucks on Main St. Friggin hilarious.

[DC83]

The funniest moment had to be when Paul Wilson from the Spec was doing a video special and was standing at Main/John St and this double loaded truck whips by behind him, loud and banging away. This was during BC Ted debate about trucks on Main St. Friggin hilarious.

hahaha And then he said someone "photoshopped" it in! hahaha

And ya, it's true... the damage is done. No sense of continuing the "to build or not to build" debate. I'm just very upset that it was.

And ya, Warrior, I know TOO well how crappy HSR service is up there. I grew up in the Upper Creek, and had to walk up Mt Albion (no sidewalks) many times just to get home. Now it's going to be even more inconvenient once they shut down the access.
But that's (primarily) why I moved downtown: convenient public transit access. It's just unfortunate that most people up there take the alternative route and buy a car rather than relocate. But those people also have to pay for cabs when they're downtown partying ;) I walk home for free!! haha

upper SC is already going thru a huge commercial boom, and I have actually heard that the new development at Paramount/Winterberry area will actually have retail mixed with med-density apt bldgs. I'm (unsuccessfully) trying to find the plans online... anyone have a copy?

[SteelTown]

hahaha And then he said someone "photoshopped" it in! hahaha

I knew he was kidding around but oh that was damn funny. Everybody is going around saying "see! see! prove!" and he goes "photoshopped!" haha

[the dude]

This road will change Upper Stoney Cr. East Hamilton and the East Mountain. There will be tons of development, ablbeit not the kind most of us on this board like. The thing to do now is push for more enlightened development at the southern terminus of RHVP.

It will make some residential areas of East Hamilton more attractive. Ask the average person and they like living close to highway access. The only reason Lowes and the Centre Mall redevelopment are happening is really because of the highway. These places also locate near highway access because that's how they can increase their potential customer base.

This highway makes it easier to commute to Burlington, Oakville and Mississauga (TO is still too far). Many Hamiltonians work in these places, because industries and offices located along the QEW and 403, instead of Hamilton, because they like to be located along highways. Many companies moved from Hamilton to these locations.

Now Hamilton has more land with highway access and I see no reason why industries will not locate within Hamilton now. Manufacturing especially relies on just in time delivery, which means trucks, and shipping costs are reduced when the trucks can easily access the industries along highways.

This is the reality, it's like this everywhere. While I don't believe this is an excuse to pave over a big valley, that damage is now done. It is essential for the long term health of Hamilton that we attract more employment. The city will never realize its potential with so much poverty and underemployment. With anything, there is a hierarchy of needs, and the basic need of many Hamiltonians is a decent job.

The net effect of the highway is likely to be positive: fewer trucks on city streets, more jobs, increasing real estate values in east Hamilton (which increases the equity and spending power of those residents), increasing population, higher tax base for the city, more construction, more disposable income, etc. All these things make Hamilton's economic picture look better, and this is all that is important to banks and investors, who may one day even loan money to people for downtown projects.

the elephant in the room that no one's talking about is the price of oil. we're fast approaching $100/barrel and that price will soon reflect itself in the price of gas. the cheap oil age is over, at least that's what experts in the fields of geology, physics and finance are saying. but what do i know? if we're facing a future where driving will be less and less feasible, then this highway will be a massive bust. we may see some short term success in the area warehousing and other shit employers like maple leaf but that's likely to be it. it's also unlikely to alleviate poverty in hamilton. how will the poor of the lower city get to these new jobs on the periphery of town? i think this highway will continue the perpetuation of hamilton as a dirty, stinking industrial city. and in our so-called post-industrial world, that's bad for the economy.

[raisethehammer]

oh, don't worry about it... just tune into CNN...everything's fine. Keep buying SUV's. keep moving into the middle of nowhere. it'll all work out....

[BCTed]

I knew he was kidding around but oh that was damn funny. Everybody is going around saying "see! see! prove!" and he goes "photoshopped!" haha

:)

[BCTed]

the elephant in the room that no one's talking about is the price of oil. we're fast approaching $100/barrel and that price will soon reflect itself in the price of gas. the cheap oil age is over, at least that's what experts in the fields of geology, physics and finance are saying. but what do i know? if we're facing a future where driving will be less and less feasible, then this highway will be a massive bust. we may see some short term success in the area warehousing and other shit employers like maple leaf but that's likely to be it. it's also unlikely to alleviate poverty in hamilton. how will the poor of the lower city get to these new jobs on the periphery of town? i think this highway will continue the perpetuation of hamilton as a dirty, stinking industrial city. and in our so-called post-industrial world, that's bad for the economy.

Cars are not going away anytime soon.

[the dude]

talk to me in 5 years. actually, don't.

[raisethehammer]

cars will still be around, but will begin to become more used among wealthy folks...or those willing to really bring on the debt load for their regular fill-up.
transit can snag some of these people as casual/part time riders to offset the increase.

[matt602]

wow this expressway is getting so much hate. it really is quite ridiculous considering how small it is. hell, main street has more lanes in it than most portions of this thing.

[HAMRetrofit]

Cars will become more fuel efficient and alternative fuels will be used. They they will still be around long into the future and will adapt to market conditions. This is the reality. Highways will continue to be built and widened in the future.

The argument for more public transit and better urban design based on energy depletion is wishful thinking propigated by the gloom and doom theories of 'new urbanists'.

For a meaningful argument for these things start talking about quality of life, civic amenities, city economics, environmental damage, global warming, and all those other fun things. Societal changes of value will be the only thing that changes anything.

[the dude]

alternative fuels...care to elaborate?

[raisethehammer]

yes, I'm interested in this too....most alternative fuels are energy intensive and the ones that are useful are being developed about 50 years too late.
FYI - the average US car is LESS efficient today than it was in the 1980's or 70's. we're going the wrong way.

And for the record, I HATE MAIN STREET way more than Red Hill. Now that we've built our last highway, let's get onto a multi-million dollar LRT baby!

[HAMRetrofit]

My point was that if people still value driving and living in large homes in suburbia economies of scale will make it possible in new ways. There are billions of dollars in research and innovation occuring ready to make this possible.

I am an urbanist, but I realize nothing is going to change unless real action is taken to provide more desirable living arrangments in cities otherwise people will continue to demand what is already available. This is the reason that I feel that this depletion of energy agenda is counter productive. There are far better arguments to be made than fossil fuel depletion for sustainable development. Its not that I don't think that it is an issue but there are more pressing things in the world with more obvious threats. IMO

[DC83]

alternative fuels...care to elaborate?

I think every oil company is at least looking into ethanol fuel. There's also Hydrogen... that's all I know for now.

Saskatchewan wants to be the next boom province, so they're really hoping ethanol fuel research speeds up. Imagine their endless fields of corn... they could supply half the world with it's fuel!

Hamilton and Ontario could also cash in on this... of course this is only if the Province wants to actually stand behind it's Greenbelt "legislation".

[flar]

The problem with ethanol is it takes a lot of energy to make it (farmers need fuel for tractors and combines,etc..) so hopefully it won't be the fuel of the future.
A completely different type of engine needs to be developed, and hopefully will. The combustion engine has run its course. Look at the fancy technology around us, yet our cars are dirty, oily smelly machines belching out smoke, and they break all the time.

[raisethehammer]

much like suburban sprawl, ethanol is almost impossible to produce without massive subsidies.
Furthermore, poor folks around the world may be forced to starve so we can fill up our cars:

http://www.mexidata.info/id1243.html

[raisethehammer]

I notice the Spec is doing this timeline of Red Hill history lately.
I'm guessing they won't dwell on this time period:

Start at the bottom and read up.
I'd like to get more info as to why the province was so intent on this highway being built? Sounds like the city was going to go ahead with the east/west route, but not Red Hill.
Also, it could have been MUCH worse...check out the plans for 5 new expressways across Hamilton.


June 1979 - Region releases six possible alternative routes for north-south expressway. All six go through the Red Hill Valley. Nine other alternatives, including three other north-south locations were eliminated internally without public input.

1978 - Region begins study of potential locations for East-West and North-South expressways. General Manager of the Hamilton Region Conservation Authority resigns from the committee in protest.

1977 - Council votes to allow Red Hill Valley location to be considered after provincial government withdraws funding subsidy for land acquisition for the East-West expressway.

1975-1977 - Continuous pressure from provincial Conservative government to reinstate valley route for north-south expressway. Three additional votes by Council confirm 1974 decision, but by decreasing majorities.

1974 - Hamilton City Council and the newly-formed Regional Council vote unanimously to "to retain the natural character of the Red Hill Creek Valley and to maintain permanently its present natural state". Motion adopted to remove valley expressway from the Official Plan. East-West expressway retained.

1973 - Clear Hamilton of Pollution (CHOP) and City of Hamilton jointly sponsor public walk in the Red Hill Valley. Politicians who participate (including Bob Morrow) state opposition to expressway plans.

1972 - CHOP organizes environmental inventory of natural areas in Hamilton.

1971 - Spadina Expressway cancelled.

1964 - Council adopts recommendations of Hamilton Area Transportation Study (1963) for five new expressways in Hamilton including Red Hill Expressway (east of the valley) and Highway 53 Freeway (cross-mountain). Others are a Stoney Creek Expressway, an "East-West Expressway" through lower Hamilton, and a "North-South Expressway" across the escarpment in central Hamilton.

1956 - Consultant company proposes "Red Hill Expressway" to run from King Street to QEW along valley. Plan is supported by City Council but dropped in 1958.

1947 - Hamilton's first Official Plan recommends purchase of remaining portion of Red Hill Valley as an eastern greenspace buffer. These purchases are completed in the 1950-51 by the Hamilton Board of Park Management.

1929 - City of Hamilton purchases southern half of Red Hill Valley (King's Forest Park) at the urging of Thomas B. McQuesten, a member of the Parks Board. McQuesten is eventually credited as the father of the Royal Botanical Gardens, the father of the Niagara Parks system and the father of the QEW (built while he was Minister of Tranport in the provincial cabinet).

[raisethehammer]

Thomas B. McQueston wouldn't be enjoying this today...

[the dude]

perhaps, but i believe that mcquesten was the minister of transport when the qew was built, so who knows what he was thinking. that sort of schitzophrenic behaviour might have been easier to understand then than it is now.

[flar]

I think McQuesten was also involved in the Bluewater bridge in Sarnia and one of the bridges over the Niagara. He liked infrastructure apparently.

[raisethehammer]

I think he had a good balance, at least what I've picked up in learning about him....nature areas were important and infrastructure was important.
the strip along the QEW was already being developed...brides into the USA are obviously important.
He's responsible for the mountain brow being preserved as parkland, the RBG, high level bridge....I'm guessing he would never have dreamt of building a highway through the valley.

[fastcarsfreedom]

If the "5 Freeways" had been built you wouldn't have your dreaded one-way street system.

McQuesten was a genius in many ways who saw the balance between infrastructure and aesthetics and he was a great admirer of Frederick Law Olmstead. To say McQuesten would've railed against constructing a highway through the valley is nothing short of a cross between fantasy and revisionist history. McQuesten was about BUILDING first and foremost--he just saw the benefit of beautification in the process. High Level Bridge is a great example of this, as is the Niagara Parkway and the original QEW design work. I'm an infrastructure fanatic (surprise)...and I am willing to confess that the loss of the "style and design" element in infrastructure projects is unfortunate.

[raisethehammer]

If the "5 Freeways" had been built you wouldn't have your dreaded one-way street system.

McQuesten was a genius in many ways who saw the balance between infrastructure and aesthetics and he was a great admirer of Frederick Law Olmstead. To say McQuesten would've railed against constructing a highway through the valley is nothing short of a cross between fantasy and revisionist history. McQuesten was about BUILDING first and foremost--he just saw the benefit of beautification in the process. High Level Bridge is a great example of this, as is the Niagara Parkway and the original QEW design work. I'm an infrastructure fanatic (surprise)...and I am willing to confess that the loss of the "style and design" element in infrastructure projects is unfortunate.


o great..instead of the one-way system we would have had freeways tearing through the lower city. great tradeoff.
I happen to believe that there were more than those 2 options for Hamilton to choose from - proper city streets with proper transit was a great option. Toronto chose this path, and gee whiz, they seem to have survived - granted, their downtown core and neighbourhoods aren't nearly as healthy as Hamiltons. We simply blew it here.

I'm a big fan of Olmstead too...great design work.
Today's park systems and infrastructure is a load of crap. Slabs of ugly concrete. scrawny little trees tossed in as an afterthought. no public space. no beauty. just utilitarian all the way.

[matt602]

granted, their downtown core and neighbourhoods aren't nearly as healthy as Hamiltons.

Whoa, whoa... what? Am I reading this wrong or are you saying Toronto's downtown and neighbourhoods are not as "healthy" as Hamilton's?

:sly:

[raisethehammer]

Whoa, whoa... what? Am I reading this wrong or are you saying Toronto's downtown and neighbourhoods are not as "healthy" as Hamilton's?

:sly:

haha...no sir. I was being sarcastic. It's so much harder to write sarcastically as opposed to speaking.

The Spec has a video up now about Red Hill. Kind of long, but worth the watch.
I think Don MacLean read my mind with his final statement - this is embarassing.

www.thespec.com

[DC83]

Wow, Don Mclean makes SO much sense...
Too bad the city looks upon him as a joke!

Mike Marini - Community Relations Manager RHVP, "...environmentally, it's a showcase!"
Ummm... didn't the building of this hwy kill off the Flying Squirrell population in the Valley??

[LikeHamilton]

Latest info on the opening copied from a memo to emergency services personnel (Police, Fire, EMS).

The Red Hill Valley Parkway (RHVP) is scheduled to open to vehicular traffic on Saturday November 17, 2007. The northbound direction will open at approximately 8:00 a.m. and the southbound direction will follow thereafter.

Please note that the RHVP will be opened from the LINC to the QEW; however, the ramp from QEW Toronto to RHVP southbound will not be opened until the fall of 2008. As you may be aware, the Ministry of Transportation is responsible for the construction of the RHVP interchange with the QEW as well as the QEW reconstruction between the Burlington Street interchange and the Centennial Parkway interchange.

The new alignment of Mount Albion Road between Hixon Road and Lawrence Road will be opened on Monday November 19, 2007 at 5:00 a.m. Concurrently, Mount Albion Road will be closed to vehicular traffic between the bus turnaround south of Glen Castle Drive and the intersection of Old Mud Street/Cornerstone Drive.

:)

[raisethehammer]

I'll have to head over to that part of town and see what's happening with Mt Albion. Sounds pretty good...turning to a bike/pedestrian street all the way up the escarpment.

[DC83]

Mount Albion Road will be closed to vehicular traffic between the bus turnaround south of Glen Castle Drive and the intersection of Old Mud Street/Cornerstone Drive.

A pedestrian trail/stairs would be very welcome in this area. There is currently no stairs going up the escarpment in this area, and most ppl climb up the hill in Felker's Falls Park (I know I used to when I was a teenager). It's the only access to/from the Stoney Creek Mountain if you don't have a car.

[fastcarsfreedom]

With all due respect RTH, Toronto built several major freeways across it's urban area--namely the Gardiner and the DVP, as well as the 427 to the west. Granted the full freeway plan (Eastern Gardiner, Spadina, Allen) was never completed--but the city built major north/south and east/west arteries. Montreal, a city often praised here for it's walkability and urban character is lacerated every which way by MULTIPLE east/west and north/south freeways.

"Proper" urban streets and "proper" transit are great--but they don't solve the reality of needing to move cars (I know you hate them). Like it or not, the one-way street system was the alternative to more freeways...end of story. I would argue that the lack of gridlock and lack of long, frustrating drives and waits at red lights actually contribute to quality of life...but that is a matter of opinion we are unlikely to agree on. That being said, the current set-up of QEW/403/LINC/RHVP does provide multiple NS and EW routes around the area--which has the potential to greatly reduce "in transit" traffic in the downtown core--and that may well allow "two-way-ing" of King and Main to be viable in the future. Personally I like the effect two-way traffic has had on John and James--all I ever asked for were alternatives before any traffic calming on those streets.

[coalminecanary]

"two-waying" main and king should have been part of the rhvp plan then. The two way switch should be thrown at the same time as the parkway opens up.

Every day that we wait is another day of increased traffic on the parkway, and another argument by car lovers AGAINST two-waying those streets because "we need to move cars through the city". Highways have a magnetic attraction to traffic. That parkway WILL fill up. We need to act now to make it impossible for main and king to once again become the overflow routes for through traffic.

[SteelTown]

You'll have to wait until 2010 when King St West goes two way. After that Hamilton will have a planned out and likely construction for rapid transit along Main St, meaning a new streetscape and a plan for Main St will arise.

[coalminecanary]

fingers crossed... i'm willing to wait. However the pessimist in me thinks 2010 is too optimistic ;-)

[raisethehammer]

I'd be thrilled if we did that by 2010. I'd be thrilled if we did it by 3010. City hall loves the one-ways, and fast traffic. It'll be a big uphill battle to convert them regardless of how many new highways we build.

[SteelTown]

King St W is going two ways, that was determined like 5 years ago but we have to wait until 2010. There's even a website towards the plan.

Main St well I don't know. But by 2010 Hamilton will likely have developed a blueprint for the rapid transit. The first wave of MoveOntario 2020 cash comes in 2013, though I think Dalton bumped it to 2012 now. Also it appears on the news the federal government will make a funding commitment of 1/3 funding of MoveOntario 2020 by the end of November, part of the $33 billion Infrastructure fund.

So by having a blueprint it means Main St will have to be configured to add a transit lane and the city always like to lump everything together at the same time so Main St will likely get a new streetscape at the same time as well. This will force councilors to reevaluate Main St.

[raisethehammer]

I think you might be right Steeltown...man, that would be great to start addressing Main St sooner, rather than later.

[matt602]

Just got back from a walk down to the Expressway at Barton. Everything is pretty much ready, the traffic lights are even working now. Looks pretty good.

[raisethehammer]

well, today the highway is supposed to open.
Never again will anyone be able to enjoy a peaceful walk in the valley.
East Hamilton residents would be advised to pick up a copy of the hiking trail guides from the tourism office downtown if you ever have the itch to get outdoors. The west end and Dundas Valley have just been bumped up another few notches as Hamilton's most desirable areas....you can hike until your heart's content with no overhead traffic.

[raisethehammer]

the Spec's been drooling all over themselves this week as if they played a part in seeing this thing built...oh, wait a minute!

official opening:

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/282655

[matt602]

I noticed immediately upon walking out the door this morning that traffic had picked up on Barton St. A lot. Same story for Queenston. There's a ton more cars using Nash as well, which makes no sense as it runs parallel to the parkway. I suppose they take it up to Barton, figuring it's somehow faster than hop on to the QEW. Nearly all the traffic was turning left onto Barton towards the parkway.

Also weirdly enough I saw no trucks using the parkway at all. In fact tons of them were still speeding along Barton above the parkway. I suppose things will change in the coming week as usage becomes regular though.

[DC83]

Well I am in the area almost every day for work.
So I'll definately keep an eye out and see what the traffic patterns are like in the area.
I work right on Centennial and traffic is ALWAYS backed up (esp during the week). So we'll see what happens now that it's open.

[raisethehammer]

Centennial should be the only street that this highway benefits...expect much more traffic on all the other streets, espcially the ones near exit/entrance ramps.
That's consistent with the history of highway building across North America.
If building more highways actually alleviated traffic congestion then Los Angeles would be the most smooth-running, traffic-free city in the world.
Instead it's famous for it's traffic tie-ups. Real rocket-science here eh?

[SteelTown]

Just got home from doing 10 hrs of work and so I wanted to get home quickly so I took the 403 and the Linc home. I noticed A LOT more trucks on the Linc today. I rarely ever see trucks on the Linc in the past but today I was driving close to two trucks on the Linc. Guess that's 2 trucks off of Main St.

[DC83]

^^ funny u mention that, b/c I've noticed the last cpl of days that there are still lots of trucks on Centennial. Less cars tho!

I'm assuming they'd be going to/from the "Stoney Creek Business Park" area... but why would they be all the way up by Delawana/Queenston?

[raisethehammer]

Until the ramps from Burlington St and Toronto open up onto Red Hill this will have a minor impact on trucks, especially downtown. The only trucks benefiting will be to/from Niagara.
So, we'll have to wait another year to see how this helps the downtown.

[raisethehammer]

but I thought the new highway would alleviate traffic in surrounding neighbourhoods making east Hamilton the next 'best place to raise a child'??

http://900chml.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=74281526912&rem=79855&red=801152623aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm

Who could have ever seen this coming? :koko:

[matt602]

Must be quite a bit of added traffic. When I went to Bagshaw the traffic was pretty tame aside from times when we were going/coming back from school. On weekends and after school the street was deserted.

[Hammer Town]

Hey GUys
I thought I would post my observation on the traffic change
1 a positive in my view is the truck traffic has changed. I have seen more trucks on the Linc now not just any trucks but trucks carrying steel coils, steels plates or scrap Metal Im thinking these trucks are coming from the north end. You see see you normal trucks too. Now someone earlier commented on seeing a lot more trucks on barton st thats because until the ramp from the Niagara Bound QEW to the South Boung RHVP opens then need to used Barton to get on the HWY. Anyway I think thats a few more vehicles off the downtown Streets.

Downside: out of the 3 days this week I have been by the Linc(at upper wentworth) the traffic has been slower significantly heading west at 5:00-5:30. although It was raining out. Anyway just a few things I have noticed

Another positive is that it will shave time off people coming from St Cathrines/Niagara to the airport.

[SteelTown]

Yes before I rarely ever see a truck on the Linc but now you see these monster trucks on the Linc now. I even saw a double load truck today on the Linc, the first for me.

[coalminecanary]

Did you guys see this?
http://www.thespec.com/article/285450

Janja Jokanovic has been walking her daughter to school since the Red Hill Valley Parkway opened. After getting off the night shift in the morning, the 35-year-old mother used to let her walk to Elizabeth Bagshaw with friends. But an influx of traffic exiting and entering the highway at Greenhill Avenue changed her mind. "It was easier to go to school before the road opened," said her daughter Nina, 8.

[DC83]

Downside: out of the 3 days this week I have been by the Linc(at upper wentworth) the traffic has been slower significantly heading west at 5:00-5:30. although It was raining out. Anyway just a few things I have noticed.

This could also be due to Christmas Shopping.
Every year around this time the off ramp to upp wentwroth is packed!

[LikeHamilton]

You know that they have been spoiled in the last year since Mount Albion was closed to traffic at King Street. Everyone had to go down to King via Quigley Road or the north end of Greenhill. Now the traffic is back. It has always been 4 lanes and built as a road that will take the traffic away from the secondary streets. It is the main Road for the area and was always intended to keep the traffic out of the side streets. The original plans showed Mount Albion dead-ending at the bottom at King and the Red Hill to force all traffic to use Quigley or Greenhill.

[raisethehammer]

holy crap...has anyone driven on this thing?
their slogan was "more than a road".
I'm sorry, but they are sadly mistaken. it is nothing BUT road down there now.
I had no idea that they'd be flattening the entire valley area from roughly Greenhill to QEW. I wouldn't walk on that stupid trail right beside the highway if you paid me.
I always found it funny to hear them talk about the environmental job and beautiful trails they were developing during construction. Now that I've driven it and seen it, I realize they were just feeding us a bunch of crap as usual.
It's a highway. Nothing more.

[Hammer Town]

This could also be due to Christmas Shopping.
Every year around this time the off ramp to upp wentwroth is packed!

Maybe But I work in the Mall and its not really getting that busy yet.

As Far as More then a Road goes I dont care what anyone says the creek is much nicer now and cleaner, you can actually see the bottom of the creek even the deep spots.

The trail is still ok.

[raisethehammer]

give it a few weeks of pollution, salt and people dumping again. the creek will be more filthy than it ever was.
They should at least plant trees beside the trail. it's insane. you're flying down the highway with the trail right beside the road. who will hike there??
Dundas Valley/Cootes Paradise for me.

[the dude]

there was once talk of plowing an expressway through the dundas valley as well. if we let them have their way we'd be knee deep in asphalt. i mean moreso.

[SteelTown]

Life has changed on Centennial Parkway

Paul Wilson
The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 3, 2007)

Forty years ago, to mark this country's 100th birthday, they changed Highway 20 to Centennial Parkway.

Very patriotic. But Centennial has never looked much like a parkway. Strip malls, car dealers, fast food joints, a strip joint and the worst traffic in town. No rivers, no vistas, no park.

But now they've pushed a new highway through the neighbouring Red Hill Valley. It opened two weeks ago.

Everyone always said Red Hill would take the load off Centennial. Let's go see if that's true. Let's see if Centennial is starting to look parklike.

We begin up top, at the brow. This is where they scratched out a two-lane gully in the escarpment in 1929. Thirty years later, they widened it to four lanes.

And sailing down here is quite scenic, though the view ahead is steel mills. The road bends to the right, then flattens out. We cross King and pull over. This is the one spot on Centennial that still has houses on it. Let's knock on somebody's door.

Here's a nicely kept spot, a custom one-storey with big lawn. Turns out to be the home of Paul and Barbara Blake, and they have lived here since 1975.

Back then, they were new arrivals from Woodstock. They were used to lots of space and the subdivisions of Hamilton looked awfully cramped.

"I have just the place," the realtor told them. "The one drawback is that it's on Highway 20." That didn't mean a thing to the Blakes.

They loved the home, with its round dining room, 25-foot living room and orchard out back.

So they bought it. Their lawyer told them not to worry. There would be an expressway running through the Red Hill in just a few years and the traffic out their front door would soon be gone.

The decades rolled past, and so did the flatbeds hauling steel, the tankers full of fuel, transports of every kind. Barbara joined the fight for the freeway, recruited by the indefatigable Mary Wiebe, who had been on Highway 20 since 1955.

Whether it's a victory for the people or not, the Red Hill did get built. The moment it opened, the Blakes say, Centennial changed. Now the view out their front window is no longer a long line of southbound cars and trucks backed up for the lights at King. Now the Blakes can even do a left-hand turn.

But with the parkway freshly calmed, the Blakes are moving. The timing's a shame, but they've decided they need that low-maintenance condo on the West Mountain.

Due to Centennial's reputation as congestion alley, the Blakes had a tough time selling the house. But they're sure the young family moving in will be happy there now.

We push down the parkway to the Taj Restaurant, samosas and kebabs a specialty. Owner Tariq Nadeem says business is good. Customers from Burlington and St. Catharines tell him it's now a snap to get to his door.

Next, north of Barton, Tim Hortons. No problem getting a parking space here. Quiet inside, too. Gina Milroy, manager at the store for 16 years, says the change was fast. "The highway opened on the Saturday and right after that, boom." She figures their trade is down 25 per cent.

Last, on Centennial just south of the QE, we pull into the venerable 18-room Pines Motel. It goes back to the days before that centennial year.

Chandra Patel has run the place for six years. Has the new Red Hill highway had any impact on business?

"Look for yourself," she says, pointing to a deserted parking lot. The night before, she rented three rooms. At this time of year, she would have expected to fill 10.

Some motorists used to come off the QE at Centennial, spot the Pines sign and decide to bunk down for the night.

"Now nobody sees that sign," Patel says. "We noticed the difference right away. It's getting worse and worse."

[DC83]

Everyone expected business to drop... that was a no-brainer.
What the city COULD do is completely re-streetscape the entire stretch from King to Confederation Park.

Currently, you can't even walk north of Barton... there are no sidewalks. How are kids suppose to get to Wild Water Works in the Summer? There's a seasonal bus, but that's all the way up at the new Eastgate Terminal. If you live Northof Delwana/Jerome, you're not going to walk an extra 50% just to catch a bus.

People walk up and down this stretch constantly... and are always in danger of being hit by cars, trucks, or out of control steel coils. Now that these trucks are apparently gone (I work right on Centennial, and still see these trucks), then we know it's time to pedestrianize the Pkwy. There's SO much room on either side of the road for BIG walkways, public art, GREENERY (Hi... Trees).

This stretch COULD potentially be a great walk... but the catch is trying to get the City to realize that. GOOD LUCK!

[SteelTown]

When I stay late for work and drive back home on the Linc it's now bumper to bumper traffic on the Linc from Meadowlands area until Upper James, it was never like that before. The city has now put up QEW signs on the Linc.

I say within a decade the city will have to end up adding another lane on the Linc for each direction.

[markbarbera]

I can see Centennial as a prime spot to introduce higher-order dedicated transit. It could be dubbed as HSR's C-Line. I see it starting from a terminal at QEW and Centennial with a parking area as part of (or instead of) the proposed Power Centre site. It would head south along Centennial Parkway to Mud Street, then turn at Mud to head west via Mud/Stone Church to Upper James, continuing on to Meadowlands, where it would have another terminal/parking area with access to the 403. It can have transfer nodes at Eastgate Square to connect to B-Line, at Mud and Centennial for (future) local routes, and at Stone Church and Upper James to connect to the A-Line. Intermediate stops could be at Barton & Centennial (connection to 2), King & Centennial (5, 58), Mud and & First(43), Paramount & Winterberry (43, 11), then stops along Stone Church at Nebo (22,43), Upper Gage (23, 24, 43), Upper Wentworth (25, 26, 43), Upper James (27, 35, 43), and Upper Paradise (34, 43).

[DC83]

Good idea, mark... but I think it would better service Rymal... make it a part of the Rymal Route.
(Up Centennial to Rymal, across to Meadowlands via Garner Rd).

The 43 already covers Stonechurch, and we currently don't havea Rymal route. So the rest is great, I just think Rymal needs service 1st and foremore.

[LikeHamilton]

Good idea, mark... but I think it would better service Rymal... make it a part of the Rymal Route.
(Up Centennial to Rymal, across to Meadowlands via Garner Rd).

The 43 already covers Stonechurch, and we currently don't havea Rymal route. So the rest is great, I just think Rymal needs service 1st and foremore.

I like the idea of a “C-Line”. Since the city will soon have a Rymal line from Ancaster to Centennial (Just approved over the next two years), I think the “C-Line” should start in Binbrook with its large growth out there and continue to the QEW. It can connect to the Rymal, Mud Street, King, Queenston and the “B-Line”, Barton and the Waterfront. Put a large free parking lot at the south end of Binbrook and a small local bus for at least the rush hours that does a loop around town and you should be able to get people out of their cars. If they could get a GO Bus service to the bus terminal at Eastgate right know, it would be even better.

[DC83]

^^ That's a great idea, too.
No doubt Binbrook needs service ASAP! It's actually full of young families, not just old farmers like it used to be. So that route would make more sense.

[matt602]

I'm not sure if a dedicated corridor needs to be set up, but I do agree some kind of year round service needs to be implemented along Centennial. Apparently the City isn't realizing that growth out here in the East end is just as rapid as anywhere on the mountain or Ancaster and that the traffic is starting to reflect this. Once all that power centre crap goes up, up the hill along Hwy. 20, we're gonna need a way to get up there that doesn't involve finding someone with a car.

[DC83]

^^ Once it goes up? Dude, the "commercial" aspect of Meadowlands East aka Summit Park is almost done. WalMart, Canadian Tire, Fortinos, LCBO, rows of smaller retailers & restaurants. It's already there... yet not ONE bus route to the area. Closest is the Stonechurch (43) which stops at Highbury&Whitedeer or Highland&Highbury.
AND it's not like you can WALK to these shops... there are no sidewalks along 53 OR 20!

[SteelTown]

Lowe's Opens Doors
Dec, 10 2007 - 6:30 PM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - 170 new jobs in Hamilton's east end.

Home improvement chain Lowes opened its first three Canadian outlets on Monday, one of them at Barton and Woodward.

The others are in Brantford and Brampton.

Lowe's Canada President Don Stallings admits the nearby Red Hill Parkway was a factor in choosing the location.

He calls economic development..."critically important in every store that they pick".

[matt602]

It's a really nice store. I pass it every time I walk to the bus. It's quite tasteful for a big box. I have yet to go in yet but I'm sure it's gonna be quite competitive and will lure loads of people away from Home Depot. Especially people in the rest of the lower city who have to drive so far to get to HD.

Back to the topic however, I actually saw the Red Hill gridlocked about a week ago on a Thursday or Friday night. Traffic was crawling from Barton southbound along the parkway. The Northbound was also seeing a steady stream of traffic. The line of cars trying to get onto the parkway from Barton was backed up all the way to Woodward.

Well you may be against the Parkway but you can't say it isn't getting used.

[LikeHamilton]

A mistake they made was not having a ramp from the Red Hill to Centennial Pkwy. People trying to access the lower part of Centennial are using Barton Street.

[DC83]

A mistake they made was not having a ramp from the Red Hill to Centennial Pkwy. People trying to access the lower part of Centennial are using Barton Street.

Barton is usually backed up coming from the West side of the Pkwy. I've noticed that Queenston West of Nash is getting pretty congested, too. I think it's b/c the whole "intersection" to get onto the Pkwy is really confusing. The lights don't help out much either.
This is pretty frustrating as a public transit rider as I take the Beeline to/from work everyday and I have to wait an extra 5 mins just to pass over the Pkwy (only in the evening tho).

On the bright side, Centennial seems to be practically clear of traffic. I used to walk faster than the cars while walking up, now they're zooming by me. I'm sure businesses on Centennial are p/o'd!

[raisethehammer]

gee, traffic congestion is on the rise near the highway. who knew??;)

[SteelTown]

There's traffic congestion up on the Linc as well. More and more cars, especially trucks are using the Linc and so it all jams up from the 403 exit ramp to the Linc (Meadowlands area) and usually doesn't break up until you pass Upper James.

[BrianE]

Hello all SSP people, I've been lurking for a while now and thought I would start joining in on your discussions.

My observations so far about Red Hill:

Morning rush hour where the Linc meets the 403 has improved greatly. Not sure if its because of the natural christmas slowdown or because of RHVP. I'll let you know after the holidays.

Going home at night I drive from ancaster along the linc to Upper James and then down to the Blakely, St Clair, Gage park neighborhood. I've noticed lately that traffic around the Upper james exit is getting more congested than before.

My brother in law lives on Woodward Ave. Trucks and highway traffic heading towards Toronto get off at Barton, head west to woodward and get on the QEW Toronto there. They obviously hate it and can't wait for the Toronto bound ramp to finish. Even still I expect they will forever have to deal with increased traffic on barton and woodward.

It's still too early to pin down all the pros and cons of the new highway. There really should be a study done that documents all of these effects, if only for curiosity sake.

[flar]

Welcome to the forum BrianE

The full traffic ramifications of the highway will not be known for several years. I have noticed a lot of traffic counting devices around the city lately though, so they are studying it.

[DC83]

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - The Hamilton Catholic School Board is blaming the city for dust build up in Bishop Ryan High School, and is demanding compensation for the clean up.

The board says construction from the Red Hill Valley Parkway led to an influx of dust in the school's ventilation system.

It says the clean up is being done over the holiday's, and it wants the city to pay the 106-thousand dollar cost.

http://900chml.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428327912&rem=82385&red=80132723aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm

[raisethehammer]

Now is where we see which citizens of Hamilton are considered 'more important' by council. Those who use a car or those who use transit?

CATCH News – January 2, 2008
Who will pay to operate the expressway?
In the wake of the fight about bus fare hikes, councillors are facing another difficult budget decision: how to pay the operating costs of the recently-opened Red Hill Creek Parkway. Having just decided that rising transit costs must be borne by its users in the form of higher fares, it’s unclear if they will apply the same logic to the annual costs of the new parkway.
In the end of November debate on the transit budget some councillors argued that tax increases should cover at least part of the $1.8 million needed by the HSR, but most of their colleagues rejected that viewpoint, contending that taxes are already too high.
The annual operating bill for the 8 km valley parkway is $2.65 million – one of the larger budget pressures that are threatening to push up property taxes by 6 percent or more. The idea of tolling the new road was investigated in 2004.
Staff and consultants calculated that net tolling revenues after paying the costs of the tolling equipment would be about $14 million per year if applied to the valley roadway at a rate of 10 cents a kilometre. Tolling the 12 km Linc would significantly increase this revenue stream.
By comparison, the 407 toll rates <http://www.thestar.com/News/article/289441> this year are 18 cents a kilometre for off-peak periods and 19.25 cents for peak periods. But even at the 407 rates, a trip down the valley parkway would be nearly a dollar cheaper than the new HSR fares.
Debt servicing for the combined Linc and valley expressways in 2008 will cost $8.2 million and rise to $9.2 million next year. These payments are currently coming out of the general property tax levy.
The 2004 staff recommendation to seek provincial approval of tolling was sidestepped by councillors who instead decided to repeat their demand that the province provide more money for the valley roadway. That appeal was unsuccessful and the provincial subsidy has remained at about 60 percent of the $357 million project cost.
Most Hamiltonians have access to a car to make use of the new highway. But one out of every six households in Hamilton doesn’t own a vehicle according to the comprehensive 2001 Transportation Tomorrow Survey <http://www.jpint.utoronto.ca/ward01/hamilton_wards.pdf> . In the downtown ward 2 area nearly four in ten don’t have a car, and in the adjacent ward 3 the figure is almost three in ten. Those are also the areas recording the highest HSR use.
At the other extreme, 44 percent of Hamilton households had at least two vehicles in 2001. That ranged from 38 percent in wards 4 and 6 to over 75 percent in Ancaster and Flamborough. The latter community has no HSR service, although that’s scheduled to change this year.
Taxation for the HSR is area rated <http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/EAF88E4C-D944-4E36-AA72-EE07BC63A37C/0/038_2007_Residential_general_and_area_specific_rates_by_community.pdf> which means that suburban areas pay less than residents of the former city of Hamilton. In 2007 the latter paid a .087 percent tax rate. Ancaster stood at .018 percent, Dundas at .021 percent, and Stoney Creek at .026 percent. Most of Glanbrook and all of Flamborough were not taxed for HSR service last year, although that will change for the Waterdown area in 2008.
City treasurer Joe Rinaldo told councillors in November that charging the extra $1.8 million in HSR costs to the tax levy would have raised taxes by up to $12 per household. The fare increases approved instead added $96 a year to each adult pass and $84 to high school and elementary student passes.

[SteelTown]

Tolling the Red Hill would be a bad idea. If there must be a toll place the tolls on Main and King Street instead. The Red Hill was built to help reduce traffic on city roads.

[raisethehammer]

Main and King??
How about Upper James and Rymal instead? it would be impossible to pull that one off without upsetting people who live in those areas.
Highways make more sense for tolls.

[SteelTown]

^ The point is placing tolls on Red Hill or the Linc would be a stupid idea as cars and trucks will go back on Main, King Street and Centennial Parkway, therefore making the whole idea of building the Red Hill a complete waste.

Put up congestion charges on Main or King if you must.

[go_leafs_go02]

can't Hamilton pressure the MTO to well, assume the responsibility of the highways by uploading them to the provincial highway network, they most certainly are provincially important for those travelling from London/Woodstock to St. Catharines, Niagara Falls.

[raisethehammer]

ahhh, I see. People won't use the highways if they have to pay 10 cents? Maybe they all should have thought of that before electing a city council willing to build roads it couldn't afford.

[the dude]

i think it goes without saying that i support tolling the expressway. always have. not to be spiteful but turnabout is fair play. if it is a necessary route then people will pay to use it.

[DC83]

^^ Exactly! They tolled the Skyway Bridge until it was paid off, why not toll the RHVP until it's paid off?

[raisethehammer]

plus, I gotta tell ya. people would GLADLY pay the toll on Red Hill. I drove it the other day and it's unbelievable how quick you can get from QEW to the Linc...like 5 minutes.
Is someone really going to be so cheap as to say "I won't pay $1.40 per week (twice a day, 5 days) to save myself the agonizing trip along Centennial"?
They would in a heartbeat.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I don't see the the LINC and/or Red Hill being "uploaded" to the MTO--at least not until they assume responsibility for the Gardiner and the DVP. To illustrate how different issues affect different cities--the locally owned east-west expressway in Windsor--known as the EC Row was considered for uploading--at the province's suggestion--and the local electorate was dead-set against it--fearing that it would lead to more trucks using it--yes--you heard that right, folks don't want trucks on the Expressway--though I'm not sure where it is they expect them to go.

If someone can elighten me on the benefits of tolling I'd be willing to argue pros/cons. I can't think of a situation where tolling in order to pay for a highway has been all that effective--highways require upkeep even after initial investments for construction are considered. 407 is merely a profit generator for it's consortium of owners--there was no intent as far as paying off the construction debt. The tolling situation with regards to the Skyway (in the 1950s) was also a different case--to the best of my knowledge the tolls were removed prior to the bridge being "paid for".

CATCH is an interesting organization--I give them credit for their spin techniques--it seems to be the one thing they consistently get right.

[raisethehammer]

what in this recent CATCH article would you describe as spin?? It's all bang-on in my books. and refreshingly, something I'd never read in the Spec.

[markbarbera]

The cost of maintaining RHVP is significant, as is the revenue that the new parkway will generate for the city, and the increase to the quality of life the parkway offers (i.e. reduced commute times, reduced traffic on Centennial and other city streets). As long as tax revenues from new development and increased economic activity inspired by the parkway offset the maintenance costs, then I am fine with these costs.

As far as a toll goes, I really could care less either way. On the surface, it would appear to be a good idea for cost offset, but there would be a significant additional cost to implement a toll system on a road not initially designed for tolls. The costs of the road have already been driven so high by years of delay, not to mention the policing and legal costs brought on by the long-running protests against its construction.

[BCTed]

plus, I gotta tell ya. people would GLADLY pay the toll on Red Hill. I drove it the other day and it's unbelievable how quick you can get from QEW to the Linc...like 5 minutes.
Is someone really going to be so cheap as to say "I won't pay $1.40 per week (twice a day, 5 days) to save myself the agonizing trip along Centennial"?
They would in a heartbeat.

Happy New Year.

I don't trust your numbers. Where the heck do you get $1.40/week from? That suggests 14 cents per trip (assuming 2*5 trips per week). The CATCH article (however accurate it is) mentions 10 cents per kilometre. Are you suggesting that people will average 1.4 kilometres per trip?

A full daily run up and a fully daily run down the the 8 km of the RHVP would come to $8.00/week at those toll rates.

[raisethehammer]

ok. $8.00 per week.
sounds good to me.

Mark - unless Hamilton has a massive influx of industry wanting to locate near this highway (I suppose 1 or 2 companies would be an 'influx' when recent years have brought zero) there won't be any tax revenues to offset the cost of the road.
So far, we're seeing over 10,000 homes built in a sprawled out manner on greenfields.
Those types of development end up costing the city money, not making us money.
It's one of the reasons our finances are in such bad shape. We've subsidized sprawl for a few decades now and have a near-bankrupt city hall to show for it. Development charges for sprawl need to skyrocket, and fast.
And the purchase price of these new homes will also skyrocket if developers and home-buyers are made to actually pay more of their their fair share instead of relying so heavily on the existing taxpayers to subsidize their 'american dream'.

[coalminecanary]

Why is it so easy for people to believe in the possible benefits to the city's economy of a new highway -- so much so that they are willing to simply accept that the entire population should pay for it, including those who don't use it?

And why is it so difficult for the same group to believe in the possibile benefits to the city's economy of improved (and inexpensive) public transit -- so much so that they refuse to accept that the general population should carry the bill and that the users should pay for it themselves?

[BCTed]

I believe that the Parkdale HSR bus runs on the Red Hill expressway. What should do we about people who take that bus? Charge them a toll and a fare? Toll only? Fare only?

[raisethehammer]

Why is it so easy for people to believe in the possible benefits to the city's economy of a new highway -- so much so that they are willing to simply accept that the entire population should pay for it, including those who don't use it?

And why is it so difficult for the same group to believe in the possibile benefits to the city's economy of improved (and inexpensive) public transit -- so much so that they refuse to accept that the general population should carry the bill and that the users should pay for it themselves?


because they don't care about the city's economy or the rest of the population.
They've been captured by big oil and the sprawl builders and have bought into the notion that they are more important than society or any other individual in society.
People are more interested in having me pay for their 8 minute shortcut than the city's economy or transit system.
Sadly, we also have an entire bunch at city hall who feel the same way. And the city flounders and goes bankrupt while you and I pay sky-high taxes to fatten the pockets of a few folks.

[matt602]

I believe that the Parkdale HSR bus runs on the Red Hill expressway. What should do we about people who take that bus? Charge them a toll and a fare? Toll only? Fare only?

*snicker* Obviously they'd be exempt of it as I am when I take the GO bus along the 407.

Or maybe they'll pass around a collection plate.

[markbarbera]

because they don't care about the city's economy or the rest of the population.
They've been captured by big oil and the sprawl builders and have bought into the notion that they are more important than society or any other individual in society.
People are more interested in having me pay for their 8 minute shortcut than the city's economy or transit system.
Sadly, we also have an entire bunch at city hall who feel the same way. And the city flounders and goes bankrupt while you and I pay sky-high taxes to fatten the pockets of a few folks.

Wow, that is a tad over the top. I happen to think public transit and a expressway system are equally important to the development of this city. I also happen to live downtown, do not own a car, and use the public transit system every day, so please don't paint with such broad brushstrokes. And, like it or not, city hall is made up of elected officials that your neighbours voted in. And they are the same folks who foot the same tax bill as you and I.

Why is it that you feel the need to attack opinions variant from yours with such intolerant arrogance? Sure, I think lots of opinions posted on here are off-base, but I try to keep the posts here civil and respectful. Is it too much to ask everyone else to behave the same?

RTH, review the various posts you have made on the different threads over the past few days. They are dripping with negative energy, and are really bringing down the level of discussion here. This is supposed to a constructive discussion forum about a city that we all care for deeply. Everyone, can the vitriol be put aside so we can discuss things rationally? Please?

[raisethehammer]

hey Mark...no prob. Not meaning to be 'negative'. I appreciate your comments though and will pay a little more attention to what I write, although I can think of various posts I've written this week regarding Trinity Landing coming along, King East being vibrant, a great LRT piece, some drooling over Stinson etc..... nontheless, your view is appreciated.

Back to the topic...what is your response the question posed by coalmine??

[fastcarsfreedom]

coalminecanary's question is an interesting one. It is tinted with an opinion I don't share--however, I'm willing to thrash out the pros and cons here. If I start off by saying that I support the current model for highway funding--I would need someone to sell me on the merits of moving mass transit funding in a similar direction. Having grown up in Flamborough--my justification for not paying for HSR was, simply put, that I had no way of utilizing the service unless I drove (or was driven) into Dundas. Although that option could be exercised--I could just has easily have been driven into Aldershot and used Burlington's system, therefore, should my parent's have paid taxes for both systems?

Show me your model for transit funding and sell me on it.

[markbarbera]

Coalmine's question is making a couple of presumptions that I disagree with. First off, 'people' is a pretty broad generaliation. Secondly, the two trains of thought do not need to be, nor do I think they should be mutually exclusive.

As I alluded to in my previous post, I happen to hold the belief that both an efficient, expended public transit and a network of highways serving the city are equally important. I do not agree with the assumption that only part of the population benefits from a highway. As a matter of fact, both these items benefit all citizens of the city.

Coalmine makes a presumption that the highway only benfits part of the city's population. I disagree. Its benefits are actually much more far-reaching than he is willing to accept. Traffic on the highway is moved off local roads and onto the highway. This has greatly improved the quality of life for those who live or use Centennial for local movements. Centennial overnight has become a much more pleasant road to walk along. It also now has the potential to host higher-order transit, as its current width is no longer need to accomodate the same level of automobile traffic adn could be realigned for dedicated bus/taxi lanes.

But the benfit to all citizens goes beyond this one road. Residents on the east mountain who commute out of town now have a faster route to exit the city. Transport trucks that used to have to travel cross city via King/Main now have a more fuel-efficient route that doesn't cause unnecessary wear and tear on our downtown roads. This means less maintenance costs on these roads, a cost savings that should offset some of the RHVP maintenance cost that has CATCH so upset these days. It is interesting their figures do not include any potential savings in local road maintenance by redirecting frequent and heavy traffic onto a road designed to handle heavier traffic. Additionally, transport trucks' reduced presence on Main and King streets is a small step to making the core more pedestrian friendly. Also, more efficient flow of goods (groceries in particular) also impacts favourably on the cost of goods that all city residents consume, most notably groceries. Most importantly, fast and efficient movement of goods positively impacts on the city's overall economy and attracts new businesses to the community, thereby enriching the corporate tax base.

As for public transit, my posts on the various threads here show how I am an avid supporter of public transit improvements in this city and fully recognize its value to this city. That does not change my opinion on the benefits that RHVP/LINC bring to this city. Like I said, it is not an either/or situation, and I don't understand why proponents of public transit feel it has to be argued in this manner.

As far as City Hall's response to HSR funding requests, there is obviously a appreciation defecit amoung council on the benefits of public transit. This can be attributed equally to a council ignorant of the HSR's contribution to the city, and to the HSR administratin itself for being complacent with its diminished treatment.This deficiency can only be overcome through sober public debate on the issue, and by empowering the HSR administration with transit visionaries rather than complacent yes-men. Kudos to Councillors Brattina and Merulla for bringing the value of HSR's contribution to the city onto the discussion table for upcoming council sessions (Good Lord, I never thought I'd see the day that I'd praise Merulla on a council issue). It would best serve public transit proponents, myself included, to focus energy on promoting the value the HSR contributes to this city. Attacking highways as bad and berating their proponents does nothing to promote transit.

Fastcarsfreedom, just read your post. Your defence for Flamborough's exemption from the HSR tax base is invalid. A citizen cannot pick and choose what tax items he/she should have included in their bill, as city services are for the common good of the city. Using your logic, I should not have to include the education portion of my tax because I have no children that would be using the educational system. Like the HSR, the city's schools contribute to improvement to the quality of life within the city. Consequently, all citizens of the city must contribute equally to the HSR. Period. Your request to sell you on a transit funding model is also moot since you are neither an HSR transit user or a resident of the City of Hamilton, so there is nothing to sell to you.

[SteelTown]

^ Great post! I agree.

[raisethehammer]

I agree too.
I don't think coalmine was saying that it's an "either/or" situation.
Both are equally important. The question is then, why is funding so incredibly out of balance in favour of one mode? I think I would pass out from joy if Hamilton were to start treating transit with equal importance as roads. It's not even close right now.

[coalminecanary]

'people' is a pretty broad generaliation.

Sorry, by "people" I meant "people that think this way" and there are lots. I don't mean "all humanind" or anything that broad.

Secondly, the two trains of thought do not need to be, nor do I think they should be mutually exclusive.

I didn't mean to imply that they were... however there is a general attitude that favours large highway expenditures at the same time as low transit expenditures. You (and I) are among the minority that see that both types of expenditure are beneficial to all. If you believe the letters in the spec and many spec editorials (not the most unbiased source but one of th eonly ones we have), it's clear that transit spending is seen as a burden and road spending seen as a necessity for the common good. Those two ideas tend to go hand in hand.


Coalmine makes a presumption that the highway only benfits part of the city's population.

I did not presume this, and I'm not sure how you read that from my post... I stated that both transit and highways have the possibility of creating benefits for the city as a whole. I gave both of these expenditures an equal opportunity to be assumed to be generally positive. The only presumption I made was that those who tend to support highway spending also tend not to support transit spending, or at least support it less vigorously.

However, regarding your list of positives of the highway, I have to say that every single positive attribute that you quote, except for the displacement of transport trucks, can also be attributed to transit improvements, however transit improvements have even more positives to add to the list. In a separate argument on another day we can discuss the merits of each of these, but that is beside my original point.

In the end, the point I am making is that we need to spend on all forms of transportation infrastructure EQUALLY which we absolutely do not do right now, and I don't understand how anyone can close themselves off to reality to such a point that they believe this imbalance is normal or correct.

I am not attacking highways. I am attacking the concept of "sky's the limit" for highway spending while scrooging out on transit.

[raisethehammer]

so far no good ideas on balancing funding here.....sad, we've accepted the status-quo "highways rule" mindset.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I actually made a reasonable effort to soften the tenor of my posts, to try to move toward consensus and idea sharing. I don't know what I was thinking--since I no longer live in Hamilton my opinions/thoughts/ideas are "moot" anyway. The fact of the matter is that the Hamilton's transit/highway funding priorities and issues relating to municipal budgets are common throughout Ontario--so I may in fact, surprisingly, have something of value to share here despite my ex-pat status...go figure.

Understand markbarbera--that when I was a Hamilton exurbanite, there was no amalgamation--there were still two-tiers of government--and full HSR funding was limited to Hamilton as well as the City of Stoney Creek and the Town of Dundas. Since amalgamation--for better or worse--it might be easier to justify, as the past political boundaries no longer exist. However, I would argue that if I lived in a jurisdiction that didn't have access to schools (theoretically) I could make a pretty valid argument that I shouldn't be funding a system that I am not able to access.

Perhaps there is a "real" Hamiltonian on this Forum who could pose my question again so that it might be given appropriate debate.

[raisethehammer]

I'm lost...I thought we were all looking for answers to Coalmine's question?? What question are you referring to fastcars??

[markbarbera]

fastcars, I think your opinions are given more consideration than they deserve in this forum, be they made from locals or from 'outsiders'.

I cannot help but notice that a good chunk of the highly argumentative posts in the Hamilton threads are written by folks who have no real interest in this city, save for a passing fancy while surfing the internet. I have reviewed all the posts you have made on SSP, and they all focus on Hamilton-related issues whereas you completely ignore any discu