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View Full Version : Royal Connaught Hotel | ? | 36 fl, 33 fl, 24 fl & 11 fl | Proposal



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raisethehammer
Mar 1, 2008, 10:09 PM
I don't know if the tower would be cancelled....if it hits snags or can't be done, I could see him doing a 25-40 storey tower there...hopefully with the retail podium/grocery etc....
so far I haven't heard any negative response to Sapphire though. I think he's wise to try to gain public approval so early in the process. Now he needs to work hard at making Phase 1 a success. Then we'll have a better idea if Sapphire can/will happen.

coalminecanary
Mar 1, 2008, 10:43 PM
A real grocery store right downtown is the #1 need right now. It's getting to the point (if not already) that the population downtown is high enough that it'll be impossible for the big chains to ignore it. I'm sure we'll see a grocery store open downtown within the next few years in some way or another...

BCTed
Mar 2, 2008, 1:04 PM
Why do you even bother posting here? You know, some of us actually care about Hamilton, and as such, we get excited when positive developments come down the pipe, even if they are just proposals.

Please go be pessimistic somewhere else.

Rampant pessimism is part of what's been holding Hamilton back all these years. That era is coming to an end. I suggest you start getting used to our more positive thinking because it's not going to go away. :cheers:

As far as I know, I am under no obligation to be a tireless cheerleader for anythng and everything that comes down the line.

My method of operation tends to be to stay silent for the most part when I agree with what is written on the board and to chime in more often when I disagree with the majority sentiment. For example, I am excited about the McMaster Innovation Park and the possibility of a 15 story Hilton-branded hotel, but so is just about everyone else, so I do not have much additional to say.

On the flipside, I am not excited about the new Centre Mall plans, but neither are most people, so I have not said much there either (with the exception of a mini-tussle with RTH over how easy it is to design parking lots).

I would love to see a restored Connaught and a monster tower come into being, but I have just not seen anything from Harry Stinson yet to suggest that it is anything more than talk. I have little faith in the man and I make it known. I also believe that the Madison condo project on the mountain brow is a total stinker --- so sue me.

For a group of people who pride themselves on thinking differently and not being sheep, you sure are intolerant when someone says something that is contrary to the group's thinking. Apart from calling RTH a jerk or something once (after he probably did worse to me), I have been more or less respectful to everyone on the board and yet am frequently under attack, having my posts dismissed as laughable or stupid and being told to go away.

I should not always have to be in a position of constantly defending my presence on the board merely because I do not agree with you.

raisethehammer
Mar 2, 2008, 1:40 PM
I'm probably not the one to be saying this since you still seem to have an issue with me (by the way I wasn't the one you tussled over parking lot design with) but perhaps you should contribute more in the discussions.
Nobody minds varying viewpoints, but you rarely contribute any new info, ideas or creativity to the discussion, but always seem to weigh in with pessimism.
Your most detailed and informative posts seem to be like the one above - in the midst of a tussle.

I don't want to put words in other peoples' mouths but I'm guessing that's part of the problem.

And for the record, one could easily defend 1KW, Candy Factory lofts, the hotel/condo concept and warehouse loft concepts as very successful.
IMO Toronto's nicest tower stands at 1KW - built by Harry Stinson.
To say he has no record of success isn't accurate.

RePinion
Mar 2, 2008, 2:46 PM
And for the record, one could easily defend 1KW, Candy Factory lofts, the hotel/condo concept and warehouse loft concepts as very successful.
IMO Toronto's nicest tower stands at 1KW - built by Harry Stinson.
To say he has no record of success isn't accurate.

In all fairness to Ted, 1KW was the only condo project, so far as I can tell, which Stinson saw to completion ... and then of course he ended up losing control of it!

He was kicked out of Candy Factory before that project was realized, but of course in the long run it did prove a quite phenomenal success.

I'm not sure what happened with the High Park Lofts but they're no longer affiliated with Stinson either.

At any rate, what can be seen from Stinson's past projects is this: the vision (his vision) has always been correct and on the mark in the long run (usually quite ahead of its time), although his personal management of the projects has apparently been inadequate. Stinson seems to have a genuine knack for seeing ahead of the curve and exploiting untapped potential, but apparently not a sound business management sensibility to go with it.

Since what we're talking about with the Sapphire at this point is the feasibility of the vision, Stinson's track record is actually eminently strong in this regard. As for whether Stinson will manage to retain control and successfully administer the project, that is quite another matter ...

BCTed
Mar 2, 2008, 3:38 PM
I'm probably not the one to be saying this since you still seem to have an issue with me (by the way I wasn't the one you tussled over parking lot design with) but perhaps you should contribute more in the discussions.
Nobody minds varying viewpoints, but you rarely contribute any new info, ideas or creativity to the discussion, but always seem to weigh in with pessimism.
Your most detailed and informative posts seem to be like the one above - in the midst of a tussle.

I don't want to put words in other peoples' mouths but I'm guessing that's part of the problem.


My point is that I should be under no obligation to change my posting style simply to placate you or anyone else on here. I shouldn't have a quota of any kind ("do this, do that") imposed on me. I have averaged less than a post a day, so I cannot have inconvenienced anyone too much. I generally hate it when people say things like this, but here I go: If you don't like what I post, don't read what I post.

BCTed
Mar 2, 2008, 3:48 PM
In all fairness to Ted, 1KW was the only condo project, so far as I can tell, which Stinson saw to completion ... and then of course he ended up losing control of it!

He was kicked out of Candy Factory before that project was realized, but of course in the long run it did prove a quite phenomenal success.

I'm not sure what happened with the High Park Lofts but they're no longer affiliated with Stinson either.

At any rate, what can be seen from Stinson's past projects is this: the vision (his vision) has always been correct and on the mark in the long run (usually quite ahead of its time), although his personal management of the projects has apparently been inadequate. Stinson seems to have a genuine knack for seeing ahead of the curve and exploiting untapped potential, but apparently not a sound business management sensibility to go with it.

Since what we're talking about with the Sapphire at this point is the feasibility of the vision, Stinson's track record is actually eminently strong in this regard. As for whether Stinson will manage to retain control and successfully administer the project, that is quite another matter ...

I have gone on and on about Harry Stinson. The guy clearly has certain talents --- he would not have been able to be involved in such large projects without them. That he has added a very nice addition to Toronto's skyline in One King West is also something I concede to him.

With that said, he has also made a financial mess out of all of these projects. raisethehammer is always going on and on about LIUNA, Hamilton developers, Trump, et cetera, as money-grubbers and crooks, but somehow seems to consider Harry Stinson a saint. From what I understand, Stinson has lost a lot of people (including little people) a lot of money on multiple occasions --- he seems to completely place the blame at the hands of these people without acknowledging any fault himself. What is it about him that makes him such a good guy?

Make no mistake --- if Harry Stinson had any options at all in Toronto, he would very likely never have come to Hamilton. He has more or less conceded as much, and I simply do not believe that he has another project the size of One King West in him, if for no other reason than because of the fact that he has probably burned through his allocation of goodwill.

matt602
Mar 2, 2008, 4:07 PM
I honestly understand where Ted is coming from here, and it can't be argued that he's being mature about it. There's a lot of reasons to be weary of this project, and a lot of reasons to be optimistic. We're in the really early stages right now. If Harry can clear the 9.5mil in the next month, I'm sure the general opinion will change. It's not likely a project is gonna fall apart after dropping that kind of cash on it already. Simply restoring the building should be easy after that, seeing that the consortium did the heavy work already.

HAMRetrofit
Mar 2, 2008, 4:21 PM
I am confident that phase 1 and a scaled version of phase 2 (probably still the city's tallest) will go through with ease. High end condo development in downtown Hamilton is long overdue. If there is a market in Mississauga City Center there is no reason that there is an untapped market in Hamilton. Harry's projects get off the ground and there is no reason to presume in this case that they won't. He has significant motive to throw this project back in Toronto's face by boosting the entire real estate environment of Hamilton into the spotlight. The city has been under serviced for so long that this one project will satisfy these needs including high end hotel accommodations, retail, and modern condo units.

RePinion
Mar 2, 2008, 4:25 PM
^ With all due respect, $9.5m is actually a fairly paltry sum for a project of this scope. And certainly projects in bigger cities have fallen apart with considerably more having been invested than that.

That being said, if Stinson ponies up the 9.5 and begins work on the project I would expect that even if he were not able to complete it himself someone would step in, buy the property at fire sale price, and bring it to at least some point of marketable completion. We probably wouldn't see the tower, but who knows ...

Ted's observation that Stinson would sooner be working in Toronto is almost certainly correct. What condo developer wouldn't prefer to work in Toronto, an established and exceedingly lucrative market? It's much harder to build a condo market almost from scratch, as Stinson is hoping to do in Hamilton, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. The fact that no one has made a truly serious effort at developing the Hamilton market before is quite easily explained by the fact that Toronto, the biggest residential market in the country, is only 45 minutes down the QEW. Worthy projects have sold here before and worthy projects will almost certainly continue to sell in the future. Stinson obviously knows this. He is in Hamilton because he can't summon up the support to keep working in Toronto, yes, but Hamilton was not the only place he could have gone - Vancouver, for instance, still has a bustling market for new developments and Calgary is of course absolutely exploding and open to outside developers. Hamilton in contrast could prove an easier market because there is a lot of latent demand and virtually no competition. Stinson doesn't go for the tried and true. I think that is evident from his business record. It's quite apparent that he is Hamilton because he wants to be the first to truly break the market in a big way.

SteelTown
Mar 2, 2008, 4:34 PM
If Stinson successfully buys the Connaught, and folks remember it's a group that's planning to buy it, I have no doubt the condo units for the Connaught will sell quickly.

Stinson is very good at marketing and getting the word out, he had infomercials for Sapphire Tower in Toronto. Hell he's doing a great job getting the word out about this project and Hamilton as well. He absolutely loves the media. I can picture a line up at the Connaught once the Sales Office opens.

Millstone
Mar 2, 2008, 5:24 PM
A real grocery store right downtown is the #1 need right now. It's getting to the point (if not already) that the population downtown is high enough that it'll be impossible for the big chains to ignore it. I'm sure we'll see a grocery store open downtown within the next few years in some way or another...

Is there really no 24 hour grocery downtown? I had to go all the way to Sobey's on Upper Gage and Rymal to get something the other night.

DC83
Mar 2, 2008, 6:04 PM
Is there really no 24 hour grocery downtown? I had to go all the way to Sobey's on Upper Gage and Rymal to get something the other night.

There's truly no grocery store at all downtown! Just the market, which has unfavourable hours :(

Do you live downtown? If so, The Barn in Westdale (King/Paradise) is 24hr.

RePinion
Mar 2, 2008, 6:39 PM
^ Yep, that's the closest to downtown.

Downtowns in North America often aren't served that well by grocery stores. There are a few in TO (a couple Dominions, a Valumart, a Whole Foods, and a couple Loblaws which aren't located that centrally) but mostly residents rely on Rabbas and other small food stores which stay open 24 hours. In London, UK, on the other hand, there are 24h M&S, Sainsburys, Tescos, and Waitroses all over the damn place. Very handy.

raisethehammer
Mar 2, 2008, 6:47 PM
a good late night grocery option downtown is the Hasty Market on John South. It's quite good...they obviously see the need and have done a good job at offering more selection in an effort to meet the demand.

Millstone
Mar 2, 2008, 6:52 PM
There's truly no grocery store at all downtown! Just the market, which has unfavourable hours :(

Do you live downtown? If so, The Barn in Westdale (King/Paradise) is 24hr.

Good idea...thanks

DC83
Mar 2, 2008, 7:52 PM
np, Millstone. I'm a Downtown resident myself and understand the annoyance of having to leave my area to grocery shop. We usually go to Fortinos @ Dundurn or No Frills @ The Delta (not Tisdale b/c it's ghetto). As for 24hr, sadly The Barn at Westdale is the closest.

rth hit the nail on that one, Hasty Market is good. They're over-priced and their fresh product is usually gross, but that's b/c their turnover isn't nearly as high as say No Frills. There's also an indy mart on James South that I wont mention here (b/c the owner is rude and doesn't deserve free advertising).

When I lived in downtown Toronto, there were grocery stores EVERYWHERE downtown! Most were of the Dominion name (College/Yonge, Mutual/Gould, Church/Wellington) just in the area I lived in. There was also a No Frills and a Food Basics 1 block east of my bldg (30 sec walk) in a complex called St Jamestown. Loblaws didn't really have a pressence downtown... the only one I ever went to was at Broadview/Danforth right across the Bloor Viaduct. Edit: And the Queens Quay Market (Loblaws) at Queens Quay & Lower Jarvis.

Sorry if it's getting off-topic... I'm just trying to stress the fact that even if the tower never comes to be, I REALLY want a grocery store there!

fastcarsfreedom
Mar 2, 2008, 8:54 PM
Absolutely--I agree--there has to be a viable option downtown, and soon...if not a couple. Sobeys of course has a push on with this Sobeys Express format--I walked by one recently on Yonge in Toronto--somewhere north of Dundas. Loblaws could also do something impressive downtown--a downtown format Fortinos somewhat similar to a few of the Loblaws locations around central T.O.

I know I've mentioned this before--but there was for many years a Loblaws in the Lower Level of Terminal Towers. When Loblaws left the Hamilton market it patched over to another Loblaw banner--I think valumart--I don't know what ultimately became of it.

the dude
Mar 3, 2008, 7:27 AM
perhaps i'm naive but i really believe in this project. i don't think stinson can afford to screw another project. if it goes belly-up it won't be for lack of effort on his part.

personally, if i didn't love having a garden so much i'd choose hotel-style living. i've lived that way in other countries and currently do so here in vietnam. it's convenience is almost too good to be true. hamilton is ripe for this sort of project.

DC83
Mar 3, 2008, 4:35 PM
Sobeys of course has a push on with this Sobeys Express format--I walked by one recently on Yonge in Toronto--somewhere north of Dundas.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees opportunity in Sobey's Express! It's actually quite north of Dundas tho... I believe at Yonge/Maitland. But yes, it's a great idea! It's also right across the street from a couple hotels, which makes sense.

A sobey's express would do wonders for a hotel as visitors don't always want to eat at a restaurant alone, or order room service. Especially if they're suites, they'll want to prep their own meals. I don't know how the people at Staybridge do it? There's no grocery store within walking distance.

I always thought a grocery store would best suit the lower level of Lister with condo/lofts ontop. Unfortunately for Downtown, LIUNA lacks in any creativity and would most likely never even think of such an idea.

I've actually even emailed EcDev in the past about the Sobey's Express (with no reply sadly). Maybe they're quietly brewing something up?

edit: I don't know how that angry face got up there? Sorry... I didn't put it there and it's not aimed at you, Fastcars! haha weird

RePinion
Mar 3, 2008, 4:49 PM
I always thought a grocery store would best suit the lower level of Lister with condo/lofts ontop. Unfortunately for Downtown, LIUNA lacks in any creativity and would most likely never even think of such an idea.

I've actually even emailed EcDev in the past about the Sobey's Express (with no reply sadly). Maybe they're quietly brewing something up?


A small to midsized grocery shop in the lower Lister arcade would be brilliant. It wouldn't even need a great many local residents to support it, and until local resident numbers went up, it could probably support itself at least to some extent by selling sandwiches, etc. to workers in the Lister and surrounding area.

It's not only LIUNA that lacks in creativity, but unfortunately EcDev too. I would like to believe that they were brewing up something clever, but c'mon ...

DC83
Mar 3, 2008, 5:37 PM
^^ I don't know what 'small to midsize' grocery is anymore!? Grocery stores get bigger by the month! haha

But Sobey's Express is, in size, along the lines of what grocery stores downtown used to be like (ie: the Loblaws at King/Furguson which is now a Shoppers Home Health store). And in it's format would fit in perfectly at Lister.

When I was in High School, I would draw up plans for what Lister should look like... and it always included a grocery store at street level. I bet I still have those drawings somewhere... maybe I should submit them to LIUNA? hahaha

fastcarsfreedom
Mar 4, 2008, 12:31 AM
I usually assume the angry faces are directed at me DC83--but thanks for the clarification. Just thinking how great a Sobeys Express would be in Lister--done up with tin ceilings. If memory serves me correctly there was also an IGA on Uptown James Street--near Professional Arts or Medical Arts--I remember my sister loved it when her office was in Alexandra Square. There's a suburban Sobeys Express here in town as part of a next generation Canadian Tire Gas/Convenience Bar (called "Q")--its a great little spot--a basic but decent selection of produce and meat along with all the regular grocery items. I distinctly remember during a stint in Washington DC how much I came to love the smaller-format Safeway that was down below street level in the Watergate complex--beat the heck out of restaurant food all the time. There's probably enough residential heft downtown to support a couple of these type of stores--one in the east, one in the west perhaps--Connaught + Lister and/or Jackson Square--remember the absolute mass of humanity that live in the cluster of towers in the southwestern part of downtown.

And I should add the coolest downtown supermarket I've seen has to be the White Hen Pantry location in the John Hancock Center in Chicago--it is seriously up around floor 80 or so...even has windows!

raisethehammer
Mar 4, 2008, 12:43 AM
wow...cool fastcars.
Downtown Hamilton could easily support a couple of grocery stores.
It could support a lot of thing, but we've been too busy building sprawl and not doing a darn thing to attract new business downtown for decades.
EcDev knows nothing other than 'shovel ready' farmland.
thank goodness for the downtown renewal department. They've helped build momentum in recent years.
There's still a couple of food stores on James South. Food Town ,or whatever it's called now, is the better of the two.
Maybe this is why there is an abundance of corner stores downtown that stock all sorts of unusual things compared with most corner stores. The one near me has literally everything - breakfast items, lunch, dinner, snacks, staples etc....
not just candy and junk like many variety stores.

fastcarsfreedom
Mar 4, 2008, 4:21 AM
Gotcha--assuming the Food Town is the old IGA considering they are/were affiliated banners. You are also probably correct about the variety stores stocking a broader range of items--in the absence of alternatives retailers in other sectors will come in and pick up the slack. The Shoppers in Hess Village will do an insanely good business because of this. As an example--the City of Detroit itself has a serious retail deficit--very few major retailers left in the city as far as grocery--as a result a recent publication indicated Detroit was one of the best performing markets for a number of drug retailers--Walgreen, Rite Aid, CVS, etc.

And yes, I'm certain a couple of stores would do fine (as proven by the brisk business done by the late Barn location on York).

raisethehammer
Mar 4, 2008, 4:25 AM
uh-oh...don't get me started on The Barn on Hess.
I'm not the one who spray-painted 'go to hell' on the building after they closed, but I wholeheartedly thank whoever did. Lol.

fastcarsfreedom
Mar 4, 2008, 4:58 AM
That was A&P that made that call, wasnt it? Or did G.A. Love Foods sell it before A&P bought the chain? The original Barn (when it was Barn Fruit Markets) was just down the block in the set of quansets at Hess and Barton.

RePinion
Mar 4, 2008, 2:20 PM
fastcars - your knowledge of Hamilton's, and particularly downtown's, retail history is quite astounding both in extent and acuity ... but I have to admit I find it rather depressing being reminded of how much better served our city once was haha!

raisethehammer
Mar 4, 2008, 3:54 PM
no kidding...talk about a flight to the burbs. Man, we've been pounded here the past few decades.

SteelTown
Mar 22, 2008, 6:09 AM
Stinson’s Connaught offer firm

Developer Harry Stinson has firmed up his deal to buy the Connaught, setting the stage for him to take possession of the historic downtown Hamilton hotel by the end of June, possibly sooner.

Stinson recently moved to Hamilton from Toronto, where he left a mixed record of impressive successes and ongoing legal snarls.

He is planning to convert threequarters of the original Connaught into condos and the rest into a boutique hotel, and to build two other buildings on the site, including a condo tower of up to 60 storeys. He estimates the whole project will be worth $300 million by the time it’s finished around 2010.

Stinson, 54, says he has lined up private investors to cover the $9.5-million purchase price and that his study of the property proves to him that his plans are viable.

“We are comfortable that we are going to be able to close,” he said, adding he hopes to move up the closing date so he can open a sales office in June.

Stinson has now waived the conditions on the offer he made last month, when he asked for 30 days to assemble the money and perform due diligence.

His $100,000 deposit is now irrevocable.

Stinson is buying the hotel from a group of Hamilton investors who had begun restoring the Connaught and had been assembling the money to finish their project when Stinson’s unsolicited offer came in.

Tony Battaglia, a member of the group that bought the hotel in 2005, said he is pleased Stinson has firmed up the deal and believes it will be good for downtown.

“I’m happy things are going to work out,” he said.

“We certainly had our challenges with it. I’m hoping that with his plans he won’t have the same challenges — that he’ll be able to move the project forward as quickly as possible.”

Stinson said he has assembled a broad network of private investors.

Most live outside Hamilton, he said, but most have connections to the city, such as having worked here or gone to McMaster University.

He declined to name them.

Stinson has been inside the Connaught several times since his original offer and has been developing architectural, logistical and marketing plans as he prepares to tackle the next challenge: getting the money together to restore the 1916 hotel and erect two new buildings.

“I’m feeling very good about it now,” he said.

“We’ve been able to massage this so that the numbers make sense and we’re comfortable enough to be able to proceed.”

He plans to build a new condominium tower facing Main Street — perhaps 50 to 60 storeys, according to his current thinking.

That’s lower than the 80-storey tower he talked about last month.

“This will be an evolutionary process for the next several months.”

Stinson is also working on plans to complete the complex with a smaller building on Catharine Street, composed of street-level stores and upper-level lofts.

matt602
Mar 22, 2008, 8:40 AM
Looking good, looking good. That's all I'm gonna say right now.

realcity
Mar 22, 2008, 2:25 PM
I remember the IGA on James South. I'm astounded where 30,000 people go for their groceries downtown? Imagine a grocery store on the 80th floor like fastcars mentioned in Chicago (even 5 floors for Hamilton). Where would people park? that's what we'd hear in Hamilton. It might actually make the shopping experience more pleasant, to have ACTUAL WINDOWS and a view and not want to get the hell out as fast as we can, to drive to another destination only to hate being there just as much. The chain grocery stores didn't do their research to determine that 30,000 people live within walking distance and only need a pull-cart.
http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/images/us/local/products/detail/f07535_dt.jpg


I think that Big Bear on John Street is a cool grocery store. the building is a shitbox but at least someone is recognizing a need/market and serving it. and offers a great selection for its size. Is this where everyone gets groceries downtown? Don't tell me the farmers market (RTH, I know where you live and that's a hike, even for you to pull a cart of groceries, haha) because there are serious issues with their ridiculous hours and even if you make it with an hour left -- half the stalls have closed. If i lived downtown (which I considered last year moving to Bay and Charlton) I would have to drive to Sobeys in the Meadowlands, defeating the purpose of urban living.

flar
Mar 22, 2008, 2:35 PM
Downtown dwellers with a car looking for a good grocery store could get to the Fortino's on Main West easier than anything on the mountain. The Main West Fortino's is huge and a lot better than the Dundurn Plaza location. The Barn in Westdale is a very small store. The No Frills on Main downtown is a freak show.

DC83
Mar 22, 2008, 2:59 PM
I think that Big Bear on John Street is a cool grocery store. the building is a shitbox but at least someone is recognizing a need/market and serving it. and offers a great selection for its size. Is this where everyone gets groceries downtown? Don't tell me the farmers market (RTH, I know where you live and that's a hike, even for you to pull a cart of groceries, haha) because there are serious issues with their ridiculous hours and even if you make it with an hour left -- half the stalls have closed. If i lived downtown (which I considered last year moving to Bay and Charlton) I would have to drive to Sobeys in the Meadowlands, defeating the purpose of urban living.

As a Downtowner myself, it depends on the type of grocery shop we're doing?
For us, it's:
Big Grocery Shops = drive to either Dundurn Fortinos or No Frills at the Delta (usually NF) ... and we drive to the Delta b/c we HATE Tisdale!
Small Grocery Shops = walk to Farmers Market, Hasty Market, or Olympia Variety (my bldg's own lil store)
Specialty Grocery Shops = walk to Farmer's Market, Zarky's (on Dundurn)

If Stinson opens a Mega Store grocery chain at Main/Catherine, I would most likely be there a LOT more often the No Frills or Fortinos as I could obviously walk there without having to dedicate half my day to the task! haha

raisethehammer
Mar 22, 2008, 4:41 PM
I remember the IGA on James South. I'm astounded where 30,000 people go for their groceries downtown? Imagine a grocery store on the 80th floor like fastcars mentioned in Chicago (even 5 floors for Hamilton). Where would people park? that's what we'd hear in Hamilton. It might actually make the shopping experience more pleasant, to have ACTUAL WINDOWS and a view and not want to get the hell out as fast as we can, to drive to another destination only to hate being there just as much. The chain grocery stores didn't do their research to determine that 30,000 people live within walking distance and only need a pull-cart.
http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/images/us/local/products/detail/f07535_dt.jpg


I think that Big Bear on John Street is a cool grocery store. the building is a shitbox but at least someone is recognizing a need/market and serving it. and offers a great selection for its size. Is this where everyone gets groceries downtown? Don't tell me the farmers market (RTH, I know where you live and that's a hike, even for you to pull a cart of groceries, haha) because there are serious issues with their ridiculous hours and even if you make it with an hour left -- half the stalls have closed. If i lived downtown (which I considered last year moving to Bay and Charlton) I would have to drive to Sobeys in the Meadowlands, defeating the purpose of urban living.


every Saturday morning we do the market (just got back actually).
walking is easy...10-15 minutes. groceries in the bottom of the baby stroller and we use the reusable bags from Fortino's. Buses or our car in bad weather.

Fortino's is about a 10 minute walk, and again, easy with the stroller. I have had occasions though where I carried back our milk etc....and my arms almost fell off! haha.
The corner store around the corner from our house has become our usual milk spot...same price and only a 2 minute walk.

highwater
Mar 22, 2008, 5:04 PM
The Barn in Westdale is a very small store.

Yes, pretty small, but they certainly have the basics, and they're open 24hrs.

Goldfinger
Mar 22, 2008, 6:26 PM
As a Downtowner myself, it depends on the type of grocery shop we're doing?
For us, it's:
Big Grocery Shops = drive to either Dundurn Fortinos or No Frills at the Delta (usually NF) ... and we drive to the Delta b/c we HATE Tisdale!

Why do you hate that NF?

flar
Mar 22, 2008, 6:41 PM
Is that a No Frills at Main and Tisdale? I called it a No Frills in my post above but for some reason I keep thinking it's a Food Basics. No matter, it can be a harrowing experience shopping there. I went in once to pick something up because I was in the neighbourhood. The lady ahead of us, who was about 4 feet tall and 200 lbs with a loud cackling voice, five layers of sweaters and flip flops in the middle of winter, was trying to force the cashier to accept a cheque. The cheque for $120.00 was gigantic, about ten by four inches, it was written in a foreign language--possibly polish--and it was dated sometime in the 1970's. The manager was trying to explain that they couldn't cash such a strange cheque, but she would have none of it! After ten minutes of arguing, she threw her groceries all over the floor and stormed out. I can see why you pass on that store DC83.

DC83
Mar 22, 2008, 6:59 PM
^^ hahahaha That's an awesome, story Flar! And yes, this is the reason why we avoid it (well, not JUST for that one lady).

People there are (in general) trashy, rude and disgusting.

Staff are unfriendly, unwilling to help and rude as well.
The management does not seem to care much at all. Once I was there on a Sat afternoon and they were playing a Missy Elliot song which contained un-edited lyrics (there's a reason why there's a Perental Advisory on those albums). Now I love and appreciate all music that isn't country... but I mean c'mon. There are kids in that store! And kids with kids (LOTS of kids with kids)!

But if you want a fun/funny experience... take a mission down to Main/Tisdale! hahaha

flar
Mar 22, 2008, 7:08 PM
I guess they don't have to care much, that store is always jam packed and busy. Though they probably lose a fair amount to theft and various damages.

Goldfinger
Mar 22, 2008, 7:17 PM
I guess they don't have to care much, that store is always jam packed and busy. Though they probably lose a fair amount to theft and various damages.

It must be because Loblaw just purchased the whole plaza a few months ago.

raisethehammer
Mar 22, 2008, 7:37 PM
I guess they don't have to care much, that store is always jam packed and busy. Though they probably lose a fair amount to theft and various damages.

while I can appreciate what you're saying about 'that part of town', I know folks who work at Limeridge Mall and they tell me their stores have a HUGE theft problem. That plaza is quite a nice piece of real estate in the centre of town. The revitalization that has been slowly creeping east down King St in International Village and through Corktown and Stinson will soon make it to this area. Smart purchase by Loblaws.

BCTed
Mar 22, 2008, 8:15 PM
while I can appreciate what you're saying about 'that part of town', I know folks who work at Limeridge Mall and they tell me their stores have a HUGE theft problem. That plaza is quite a nice piece of real estate in the centre of town. The revitalization that has been slowly creeping east down King St in International Village and through Corktown and Stinson will soon make it to this area. Smart purchase by Loblaws.


I don't think that the suspected theft problem is the main thing that turns off flar and DC83.

And what is with your obsession with Lime Ridge Mall? What did it ever do to you?

realcity
Mar 22, 2008, 10:01 PM
but the hours do suck at the Farmers Market. It should at least be open the same as the Mall hours.

ihateittoo
Mar 23, 2008, 2:41 AM
Compared to other cities I find our market has quite good hours.... sure for most 9-5 workers they would have to go on saturday or very early before there shifts but I think being open 4/7 days is pretty convenient.

Halifax's market is open only on saturdays. But it's also a need destination because it is a maze and full of a variety of vendors.

FairHamilton
Mar 23, 2008, 6:22 AM
I'm looking forward to the weekly shopping experience, less than 1 week................

markbarbera
Mar 23, 2008, 4:42 PM
It must be because Loblaw just purchased the whole plaza a few months ago.

If Loblaw has bough this plaza, that can only mean good news. This area is seriously underserviced by groceries and if Loblaw has bought it I'd say a redevelopment is not far down the road. There has been rumours of an expanded No Frills or even a Fortinos at this spot for some time now. If Loblaws actually owns the property now that puts more credence to those rumours.

As for all the trashing of the customers at the Tisdale shop, I have been here and to the Delta No Frills, and there really is little difference in clientele. The main issue is Tisdale is way too packed because there are so few grocery store options in this area. You would think other operators in the area would notice this and open up shop in this part of town...

the dude
Mar 24, 2008, 3:47 AM
if you want an exciting shopping experience try the food basics at barton and mary. it's a little wacky but it's so much cheaper than fortinos it's mental.

i really hope they expand the hours of the market when it reopens. i'd be happy with 5 days a week. close it sundays and mondays. you can get just about everything you need if you look hard enough.

hopefully we'll see a smaller urban-format grocery store in the connaught restoration. i hate the vacuous spaces of today's monster stores.

fastcarsfreedom
Mar 24, 2008, 6:40 PM
the dude--I think past discussions have revealed that there are already "smaller format" urban retailers--Food Town, Big Bear, etc--that exist in the core. Though you may not like the large-format stores--that is precisely what is missing from downtown.

Hammer Native
Mar 24, 2008, 6:42 PM
Is that a No Frills at Main and Tisdale? I called it a No Frills in my post above but for some reason I keep thinking it's a Food Basics. No matter, it can be a harrowing experience shopping there. I went in once to pick something up because I was in the neighbourhood. The lady ahead of us, who was about 4 feet tall and 200 lbs with a loud cackling voice, five layers of sweaters and flip flops in the middle of winter, was trying to force the cashier to accept a cheque. The cheque for $120.00 was gigantic, about ten by four inches, it was written in a foreign language--possibly polish--and it was dated sometime in the 1970's. The manager was trying to explain that they couldn't cash such a strange cheque, but she would have none of it! After ten minutes of arguing, she threw her groceries all over the floor and stormed out. I can see why you pass on that store DC83.

My dad worked in that store back in the 1970's. It was a Loblaws and no less of a freak show even back then.:koko:

LikeHamilton
Mar 24, 2008, 7:19 PM
Sorry again. I love this discussion on the need for better shopping downtown including food, but can we get this into it’s own topic instead on of the Connaught one? I get excited only to find it is not about the Connaught.

coalminecanary
Mar 26, 2008, 12:34 AM
Hey, does anyone have a downloaded copy of stinson's interview? I started listening to it and got interrupted and not it seems like CHML's interview site is completely down (and has been for a while)

thanks!

raisethehammer
Mar 26, 2008, 5:22 PM
just chatted with Mocryke. He says things are fine with Harry and this project is a go.
He thinks that Harry will try to do most of this project at the same time and have it all complete by 2010-11. I'll post more later, but it sounds fabulous....by the way, look for an earlybird special on the Connaught condos - half price for a very limited time is the rumour.

SteelTown
Mar 26, 2008, 11:17 PM
"have it all complete" including the condo tower?

chris k
Mar 26, 2008, 11:57 PM
just chatted with Mocryke. He says things are fine with Harry and this project is a go.
He thinks that Harry will try to do most of this project at the same time and have it all complete by 2010-11. I'll post more later, but it sounds fabulous....by the way, look for an earlybird special on the Connaught condos - half price for a very limited time is the rumour.

well that didnt get me excited:D

raisethehammer
Mar 27, 2008, 1:51 AM
"have it all complete" including the condo tower?

believe it or not, yes. He wants the whole thing done by 2010. 2011 at the latest.

matt602
Mar 27, 2008, 1:53 AM
That's kinda concerning. Now it's starting to seem like a rush job. You do NOT want to rush a building like that.

HAMRetrofit
Mar 27, 2008, 2:08 AM
That is not a rush job. The faster the project moves ahead, the more economically feasible it is, and more likelihood of spin off development. Please guys try to do some reading up on the real estate market before posting these things.

raisethehammer
Mar 27, 2008, 2:13 AM
he says it's not rushed....they have the money, the backing and will do it in 'phases' in terms of sales. hotel first, 7-8 storey loft building next and tower after that.
One great point that was made is that Harry made a lot of people a lot of money in Toronto. Despite troubles that occured with some others, he had absolutely no problem getting backers and finances because these people have already reaped the fruits of his prior projects. John said it was incredible how quickly people lined up to support this project.
They've put the money on the table and want to see the project built. John is like the rest of us Hamiltonians with that 'but, we'll see' mentality in the back of our minds, but he's 100% confident in the entire project now that he sees how quickly the pieces have come together. He says this will won't be an on again, off again, delay after delay hamilton project. it will proceed and get built.
Here's hoping.

HAMRetrofit
Mar 27, 2008, 2:17 AM
Harry will get it done. That is what he does. The only possible road block is the city and its citizens.

raisethehammer
Mar 27, 2008, 2:21 AM
Harry will get it done. That is what he does. The only possible road block is the city and its citizens.

I don't think so this time. People seem to like him. the media, council and public have received him well since he arrived.
I think it's our time, finally.

matt602
Mar 27, 2008, 3:47 AM
I agree. I can't see the city or the citizens getting in the way of this one. I didn't mean to talk badly of the project, it just seemed like that timeline is really tight. Really though I don't know the first thing about constructing super tall buildings, so I'm up for any surprises.

HAMRetrofit
Mar 27, 2008, 4:44 AM
You never know, Joe Blow with a house on the edge of the escarpment might find out the condo will block his view of the harbor. What if he calls his city counselor friend who he went to high school with and a city planner that his wife knows and they sabotage the project?. :haha:

SteelTown
Mar 27, 2008, 9:10 AM
If Stinson wants a 2010 opening he better start working on the condo tower this year. Trump Tower (57 floors) in Toronto started construction this year and it won't open until 2010.

raisethehammer
Mar 27, 2008, 11:07 AM
You never know, Joe Blow with a house on the edge of the escarpment might find out the condo will block his view of the harbor. What if he calls his city counselor friend who he went to high school with and a city planner that his wife knows and they sabotage the project?. :haha:

haha...yep, that pretty much sums up Hamilton politics.

don't quote me, but I get the impression that he wants to start construction this year.
Personally, I'd expect the the tower to be done by 2011, but i guess we'll find out more soon.

realcity
Mar 27, 2008, 12:25 PM
Great News. All In Harry....

Just curious question for everyone here. We've watched Ontario and NA have a building boom for the past decade, while our downtown missed out. I knew we'd turn it around and get some nice new towers eventually. I never would've guessed this... an 70 storey.

How many people would've preferred to see one new tallest like this or say 4 Stelcos dotting the skyline?

My choice is one new 70-storey tallest, even tho the skyline would've been greatly more improved with 4 more Stelcos. Because I think this will seed development for more to come. Our skyline is going to change a lot in the next decade.

SteelTown
Mar 27, 2008, 12:27 PM
New tallest. Hopefully please please come with an observation deck.

A new tallest will set the standards for new towers after that.

DC83
Mar 27, 2008, 1:04 PM
How many people would've preferred to see one new tallest like this or say 4 Stelcos dotting the skyline?

Well, I'm all about infill and love that Montreal has been more concerned w/ this issue over high rise the last decade or so. Just now they're starting to worry about highrises.

So I would have rather of seen several taller buildings placed in the dozens of empty lots we currently have. Would have given our skyline an update look.
BUT I love highrises in general and am not complaining one bit about Stinson Tower hehe I hope it's a more moderate 60-or-so-storey though!

raisethehammer
Mar 27, 2008, 1:19 PM
I'd prefer a 70-80 storey tower. it will lead to other 'stelco' sized condo towers being built nearby and it pushes the height envelope right off the bat.
doing smaller buildings, like vancouver, for decades makes it a huge battle to finally up the height limit.
70-80 floors would help pave the way for some other folks to do 40-50 storey condos downtown without upsetting anyone.

Hammer Native
Mar 27, 2008, 1:25 PM
Great News. All In Harry....

Just curious question for everyone here. We've watched Ontario and NA have a building boom for the past decade, while our downtown missed out. I knew we'd turn it around and get some nice new towers eventually. I never would've guessed this... an 70 storey.

How many people would've preferred to see one new tallest like this or say 4 Stelcos dotting the skyline?

My choice is one new 70-storey tallest, even tho the skyline would've been greatly more improved with 4 more Stelcos. Because I think this will seed development for more to come. Our skyline is going to change a lot in the next decade.

Another thought as well, something that height would help change the view from the Skyway.

realcity
Mar 27, 2008, 3:02 PM
very true. super talls would signal to Skyway traffic that there is more to hamilton than stacks.

flar
Mar 27, 2008, 3:10 PM
I like clusters of skyscrapers, but the placement of this building will really help balance out our skyline. Landmark looks really lonely around its 10-14 storey neighbours.

matt602
Apr 4, 2008, 3:58 AM
Well, I'll bring news since you guys seem more interested in bickering.

I was just in the Connaught an hour or so ago. They've been working inside sort of. The power is now off throughout the building (or at least a "Ground Fault" occured according to the main power room in the basement, which is still humming) and they put a ton of yellow caution tape all over the place in the basement, first, second and third floor. There's also a generator hooked up and a bunch of flood lights in different places in the basement and first floor.

I doubt the current owners would have spent any money on that stuff, so I'm going to assume Stinson now owns the building.

With all that said, the building is horribly un-secured still. You can literally walk right in off of John St. by opening a door, as easy as you could when the place was in operation. There's about 3 other ways in as well, with varying degrees of difficulty.

Tony
Apr 4, 2008, 10:58 AM
BCTed, Dude & RTH:

Cut the crap or I'm giving out warnings and suspensions.

matt602
Apr 4, 2008, 8:27 PM
Popped inside the hotel again today and now it's looking more like another freaking movie shoot is going on in there. The equipment they brought in today doesn't look anything like construction equipment and the people inside were wearing headsets and such.

I'm sick of movie shoots in this building, they seem to just rape and pillage the building every time. The last shoot they punched a bunch of holes in the walls and left shit loads of garbage. I guess Battaglia et al are trying to leech the last couple of bucks out of the place before getting rid of it.

matt602
Apr 10, 2008, 2:44 AM
Movie people gone, no work happened on the hotel. The place is still wide open and people (vandals, copper thieves) are coming in and out daily. A lot more stuff is getting smashed up now as well.

I hope Stinson closes on the deal soon cause the hotel really needs somebody now.

beanmedic
Apr 10, 2008, 5:34 AM
why not call the police?

coalminecanary
Apr 10, 2008, 12:35 PM
why not call the police?

Good question for the current owners. A better question might be "why not seal the entrances?".

I suppose their answer would be silence. But the real answer is probably "who cares, we were just waiting til it was destroyed enough to justify demolition anyway! vandalize away!"

matt602
Apr 10, 2008, 7:31 PM
They've never actually done a proper job of sealing the place up. They "sealed up" the back doors by sticking a broomstick across the door bars. Now they don't even bother with that. I'm convinced they don't actually acknowledge the property as theirs any more. They even said they had no plans for it other than selling it to Harry anyway.

Calling the police about it would have pretty much no effect, because all the police can do is give a trespassing ticket to anyone they see in there. It's not actually gonna get the place closed up.

chris k
Apr 26, 2008, 2:35 PM
Just curious about the status on this project.
Is it the end of the month the money needs to be submitted by?
The media has been pretty quiet about him lately so i was wondering if any of you heard any rumours about the progress.


Cheers:cheers:

raisethehammer
Apr 26, 2008, 3:04 PM
as far as I know the deal closes in June.

Mack297
Apr 26, 2008, 4:51 PM
Well ... I'm old (ish) and as such I am expected/permitted to be skeptical.

That said ... first of all, you gotta be some sort of crazy or have real big gonads to screw with the Mirvish family in that place down the Quick and Easy ... secondly .. Stinson's dreams and a buck twenty eight will get you a regular sized coffee at Tim's.

I believe the money for the Connaught was supposed to be in place by March 29/08 ...

As for the insecure property thing .. well .. The Ontario Fire Marshal's Act permits the fire dept. access to any property, without warrants. The local fire prevention officer has the authority to order a building to be made secure and safe from unauthorized entry.

Of course, the papers have to be served on the building owner(s) and I'm betting that the paper trail for the Connaught reads like a cheap pulp fiction.

If a private citizen finds that a particular property ( The Connaught as an example ) is open to unauthorized entry, contact the Hamilton Fire Dept. Fire Prevention Bureau.

The city can be ordered to secure the building(s) and the cost will be added to the tax bill.

When I was in 'da racket' ... I considered a building open to unauthorized entry as long as I could gain access without pulling a 'Spiderman'.

I found serving an order under Sec 19 of The Fire Marshal's Act was quite effective and we were directed to act on public complaints without haste.

If properly used, it's a very effective piece of legislation.

With Glen Peace being the City Manager and he having served in all ranks of the fire service, including a stint as Fire Chief in both Burlington and Hamilton, I am a bit surprised that any building as high profiled as The Connaught would be left open.

Unless ... oh damn .. there goes my skepticism thing again.....

Mack

BCTed
Apr 26, 2008, 5:27 PM
Well ... I'm old (ish) and as such I am expected/permitted to be skeptical.

That said ... first of all, you gotta be some sort of crazy or have real big gonads to screw with the Mirvish family in that place down the Quick and Easy ... secondly .. Stinson's dreams and a buck twenty eight will get you a regular sized coffee at Tim's.

I believe the money for the Connaught was supposed to be in place by March 29/08 ...



I believe that your skepticism is very much warranted. If Harry Stinson really does have some kind of financial backing, I wonder where it could be coming from. Goodness knows that the banks do not want anything to do with him.

raisethehammer
Apr 26, 2008, 5:44 PM
I believe that your skepticism is very much warranted. If Harry Stinson really does have some kind of financial backing, I wonder where it could be coming from. Goodness knows that the banks do not want anything to do with him.

are you a banker?

BCTed
Apr 26, 2008, 5:49 PM
are you a banker?

Let's not worry about what I am. It is very well known and well documented that the banks have wanted nothing to do with Stinson for some time now. Your repeated past suggestions to the contrary carry no weight. Why do you think he did those ridiculous infomercials and hung around at financial forums to get everyday Joes to put money into his projects?

Mack297
Apr 26, 2008, 6:06 PM
I have the utmost respect for the entrepreneurial spirited individuals like Harry Stinson, Donald Trump and David Mervish et al ... their ideas and visions are what we need ... they give hope to a city like Hamilton, facing the type of struggles that are being faced by many large cities with infrastructure and realestate nightmares.

Damn .. I wish I had half the 'Shutspah' that Harry Stinson has.

Ther's nothing I would like to see more than Harry Stinson, mounted on a white steed, all decked out in a knights finest armour ....riding up to the front of the Old Connaught with a bucket filled with 9.5 million loonies ...

But ... I got a bad feel'n bout dis one .... Ollie!

If nothing else, Harrry Stinson is not a shy person. If he was even close to having the backing ... we would know about it.

Mack

JT Jacobs
Apr 26, 2008, 7:57 PM
Didn't someone on this list mention that Stinson has backing from deep pockets in Dubai (or am I halucinating once again)?

Also, to reiterate what we've discussed before, Stinson was forced out of the 1 King ST W project after he'd already made buckets of money for others. I'm confident that he still has great contacts who would back his Hamilton efforts.

matt602
Apr 26, 2008, 11:37 PM
I'm starting to lose enthusiasm simply because I haven't heard anything for months now. The building is still wide open and frequented by "unauthorized persons" who are also using the building's hydro.

chris k
Apr 27, 2008, 2:28 PM
I'm starting to lose enthusiasm simply because I haven't heard anything for months now. The building is still wide open and frequented by "unauthorized persons" who are also using the building's hydro.

Exactly the same for me.
I was hoping someone here would have some inside knowledge the media didnt know about ( or deemed unimportant:koko: )

SteelTown
Apr 27, 2008, 3:21 PM
Once June comes Harry has to finalize the deal. If he can't pull it off, than the current owners will proceed with plans, if ever.

realcity
Apr 27, 2008, 3:36 PM
Please.... BCTED is so hoping that Stinson doesn't build anything in Hamilton. And don't forget that Ted knows all the bankers and what they say about Stinson. And who says he's going to one of the big five banks for investment?

As far as I know, Stinson still controls 1KW, the courts gave administrative control to him.

He'll build don't worry. then we can shut everyone up.

BCTed
Apr 27, 2008, 5:38 PM
Please.... BCTED is so hoping that Stinson doesn't build anything in Hamilton. And don't forget that Ted knows all the bankers and what they say about Stinson. And who says he's going to one of the big five banks for investment?



I am in a no-win position with you people as usual. If Stinson does get something done, it will be shoved down my throat. If Stinson gets nothing done, I will get a big "Are you happy now, Mr. Hamilton Hater?"

I don't know all of the bankers, but I do know that Stinson very likely cannot get any money from them on his own. Nobody said that he is going to one of the big five banks for investment. I did say that he has looked to average Joes for money in the past.

coalminecanary
Apr 27, 2008, 6:40 PM
who people? me people?

No one shoves things down your throat (though I think you meant something more like "rubbed in my face" which also rarely happens here).

People do however complain vocally about your complete lack of optimism when it comes to Hamilton development. Consistent negativity similar to yours on the part of many Hamiltonians is one of many reasons this city has stagnated. Don't be surprised when the majority of users on the Hamilton section of a forum discussing development in cities gets defensive about such negativity.

I really wish there was more of a "play by play" in the news about the status of this deal, but I'm sure a lot of the process happening right now (especially when it comes down to financing and large chunks of money) is going to happen rather quietly. Stinson is a vocal guy, but I'm sure he knows better than to turn around after securing each investor and blab to the media about the deals he's just signed. Once it's all finalized I'm sure we'll hear all about it.

I'm remaining optimistic because this project will be a real boost for the downtown. The next year could see this reno finally get underway, and the following year could see rails being laid through the core for LRT.

This is a good time to maintain a positive outlook and keep up the momentum :-)

matt602
Apr 27, 2008, 6:45 PM
He'll build don't worry. then we can shut everyone up.

The fact remains though that up until now all he has been able to do it talk big. That's fine and commendable but he hasn't actually put any cash down or developed any property yet. Ted's cautiousness is more than warranted given Harry's past and the unstable nature of Hamilton's development market. It actually irks me that every time this is brought up on here the poster will get jumped on and called out for "bashing Hamilton". That's not bashing, it's the truth. We don't have to grovel at Harry's feet just because he aspires and has dreams and talks well of Hamilton. He deserves attention for it, yes, but we shouldn't automatically call him Hamilton's savior.

If the deal falls through, the building will sit as it has for the last 4 years. The consortium has no money for the project and haven't really pursued any means to secure that money. Rumors are that other parties are interested, but as usual it's no more than a rumor. No hard facts or statements.

HAMRetrofit
Apr 27, 2008, 7:00 PM
I thought he put down a hundred thousand dollar deposit?

SteelTown
Apr 27, 2008, 8:51 PM
He did and there was an article updating the progress like last month. June is still a month away.

markbarbera
Apr 27, 2008, 9:08 PM
There seems to be some confusion over the status of this purchase. I just wanted to recap a few facts about this project.

Feb 28: Stinson makes an offer $9.5 million offer to purchase, making a $100,000 deposit. Purchase is conditional upon securing financing for the purchase within 30 days.

Mar 22: Stinson secures financing for the purchase and the financing condition is removed from the offer, thereby firming up the offer. Stinson will be taking possession of the Royal Connaught on June 30. In an interview with the Spec, Stinson expresses a desire to negotiate an earlier closing date so he may set up a sales office in June.

Stinson is currently developing architectural and marketing plans and securing further financing to begin restoration of the Connaught when the deal closes at the end of June.

Let's all patiently wait until the end of June to see how Stinson is progressing with this development.

BCTed
Apr 27, 2008, 9:37 PM
who people? me people?



It seems that I have started down the whole "us vs. them" path that many of your people have already taken.

Goldfinger
Apr 27, 2008, 11:50 PM
I thought he put down a hundred thousand dollar deposit?

A hundred grand of his INVESTORS' money.

raisethehammer
Apr 27, 2008, 11:52 PM
A hundred grand of his INVESTORS' money.

which is probably still worth a hundred grand if my math is correct.