[flar]

I honestly don't think I've ever met a tourist in Hamilton (other than friends and family I've brought here!)

[thistleclub]

Connaught saga far from over (http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/412603)
Local investors shop new plan for hotel, Stinson still in the game too
Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Spectator
(Aug 1, 2008)

The race to reopen downtown Hamilton's Connaught hotel may be heating up after a $9.5-million purchase of the gutted landmark fell apart last month.

The local investors who own the hotel are taking a new plan to the potential backers they had been dealing with before Harry Stinson made his $9.5-million offer in February -- an offer that died when he failed to come up with the balance of the purchase price in time.

At the same time, Stinson remains optimistic he can put together a new offer, and a city development consultant on the Connaught file says private financing could materialize to support such an offer within two weeks.

The owners say Stinson will have to wait at least a month if he does want to make a new proposal.

They are asking an unnamed investment company specializing in hotels to back their new plan to renovate and reopen the hotel under the flag of a high-end chain, and don't expect an answer for at least 30 days.

They have scaled back their plan from the ambitious five-star, full-service concept they had tried to finance before accepting Stinson's offer.

"There are very few lenders out there right now who do that type of financing at all," said Tony Battaglia, who represents the owners. "That had been our biggest struggle -- along with the belief that downtown Hamilton can't support that kind of a hotel."

Battaglia and his four fellow owners -- LIUNA's Joe Mancinelli, investment banker Mario Frankovich, builder Ted Valeri and hotelier Oscar Kichi -- confirmed this week they had abandoned the Stinson offer.

Battaglia said yesterday his group hopes its scaled-back plan will be seen as a safer, more attractive investment than the versions his group and Stinson had been unable to finance.

Hotel construction is an especially complex area of property development. Hotels are expensive to build and furnish, typically take years to make money and only produce profits if they correctly tune their room rates to their markets.

Hamilton is a tricky market to measure, with multiple forces at play, including:

* A downtown starting to emerge from decades of hard times but which few lenders consider ready to support a large, luxury hotel.

* Fewer rooms overall than cities of comparable size.

* Several other hotel projects in various stages of potential development.

* Few precedents for lenders to use for comparison.

Complicating the entire scenario is a tight credit market overall, influenced by the U.S. mortgage crisis.

The Connaught remains a hot file because of its keystone location in the core, where the property spans almost the entire block between King, Main, John and Catharine streets.

A successful redevelopment is critical to downtown momentum, say city Councillor Bob Bratina and consultant Gord Moodie from the city's downtown renewal office.

"We all want to see it completed," Bratina said. "The Connaught, to me, is a bigger issue than the Lister Block. There it sits in the middle of everything."

Moodie says a small group of local and out-of-town investors he has been dealing with may step forward within the next two weeks to support a new bid from Stinson.

If Stinson can't make it work, Moodie said, he'll go to the current owners.

"I work for the city in downtown renewal and, if that's not conducive to Harry and it is to the group that currently owns it, great. I'd just like to see it get done."

Stinson said he and Battaglia were talking yesterday and "commiserating" over how challenging it is to finance the project.

"It's no slam dunk, and it is a large project," Stinson said. "They (the owners) certainly have more collateral than I do. I have, I think, probably more passion for it. Maybe we can hammer together a compromise."

If a new Stinson bid does come forward, Battaglia said, he and his group would likely hold off on dealing with it until they hear whether they can get about $26 million in backing for their own $36-million plan -- an answer he estimated would take 30 to 90 days.

"Once we start that process, we have to carry on with that process until we have a 'yes' or a 'no,' " he said.

Battaglia's group bought the hotel for $4.5 million in 2005, and put several million dollars into the first stages of renovations, he said.

Perceptions of the property's current value range from $4 million to $9.5 million or more, depending on future use. Moodie estimates the current value of the Connaught property at about $7 million.

[SteelTown]

So how scaled back will this be? Sounds like a different chain.

[BrianE]

An upscale hotel might do well.
In a few weeks the missus and I are going to Toronto for the weekend. We'll cram ourselves into a small hotel room and have dinner at the CN tower. If I could get a large suite with jacuzzi tub here in hamilton for the same price I would certainly consider taking a local vacation.
Hamilton could become a destination for budget minded people looking for a weekend getaway.

[ryan_mcgreal]

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/1075

Harry Stinson just sent out an email to around 200 people who had expressed interest in his now-defunct Royal Connaught plan to provide an update on the deal and his desire to see it - or something similar - come to fruition.

He acknowledges that the vendors who own the Connaught are "concurrently considering other options" but that Stinson is still "in regular communication with them" and "working constantly on securing the funding."

Citing "an enormous pent-up market for well-designed, multi-use development in the centre core", Stinson also suggests that he may end up "creating a similar scale and flavour of project, even if on an alternate site."

Here is the letter in full:


No doubt you have seen and/or heard media reports on the status of the Connaught project. It is true that our purchase has not closed yet, and that the vendors are concurrently considering other options.

It is also true that we remain in regular communication with them and that I am working constantly on securing the funding.

During the months that we have been working on this project we have become even more convinced of the potential for not just the redevelopment of the Royal Connaught, but the potential for downtown Hamilton.

There is an enormous pent-up market for well-designed, multi-use development in the centre core. We very much hope that the Royal Connaught itself will be part of such a development, given its heritage and architecture.

However, I am committed to creating a similar scale and flavour of project, even if on an alternate site.

We appreciate your interest, and would encourage your comments and ideas.

As the saying goes, "stay tuned for further details!"


Thanks to the RTH reader who forwarded the email to us.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Well...presumably it sounds like a slightly scaled back plan--in other words, if they stayed in the Marriott realm, the project would move down a rung from Renaissance to plain-old Marriott, if it was Fairmont it would be a Delta, etc etc. Sounds to me like it's just as workable--if not more so, than they orignal plan...financing dependent, of course.

[SteelTown]

Stinson emailed me too.

[SteelTown]

A good alternate site for the condo tower would be any of those parking lots at King William and John. Possibly beside the park that the city intends to build next year.

[woreg75]

Well…
I'm hoping he gets to live his dream…

I actually feel Hamilton needs him, as we haven't had many visionaries lately… Regardless of the reasons that made him leave Toronto… I do think he has a vision for this town and understands the potential.
I think it would be a blessing if he lost the idea of the Connaught project, and would secure development in the areas that was mentioned by email to StealTown…
As I only wish that someone would do something with all this bulldozed land…

His idea alone needs its own canvass.
This vision alone would spark an area overlapping the downtown…
Why bring the downtown grocery store, when someone else will pick up that demand in a newly invested venture!
At least in this area there is room to grow without worries of destroying the already departed from the history books…
One thing that Hamilton has that most cities I’ve lived in or have been too… Is character!
The view coming down the Wentworth stairs regardless of season with the setting sun sums it up! It’s golden!

Yesterday is tragically gone, but left is a new slate to bring Hamilton to the future… I mourn the loss of the past…
But I mourn not the loss of all that unsightly paved space that is the true shame of downtown.

I think Harry has opened some eyes… I feel that the Connaught will be developed regardless, as others now want to prove their name…
For Hamilton’s best interest we should want this Stinson guy to make a new mark… Hey if he’s determined enough I think he will do it… Man certainly has this forum alive regardless of what position you take… It’s drawn an interest and that’s what really matters! Not just here… but all over!

<lol>
Maybe in some silly way he’s Hamilton’s new Messiah!!
But he’s got my support…
He’s here and he still hasn’t given up!

I’ve been holding out on moving back to Toronto. There’s a buzz happening around here… I’m actually curious to watch it for a while! I have patience, as this city moves as fast as paint peels in the Lister block…
Even with the mention of an LRT? Which I feel even further adds to a new beginning! Awesome Idea!
I was willing to buy into the tower if it got that far… I am even more willing if it’s on the King William Side!

Just think Hamiltonians need to support and believe in themselves, and allow an outsider to have a dream! Hey fan the flames a little!
He and Hamilton both win when you think about it… Support it! Let him and us have that! Don’t see many others stepping up to the plate!
Guess I’m a dreamer too, and that is why I am here!
Go figure!

Been following for I think two years now… This and the LRT are the most exciting things right now!
It’s nice to see Hamilton try to unknowingly embrace itself self as it grows up!

[adam]

Hey woreg75.... nicely said. I chose Hamilton as my home for similar reasons. We really are on the cusp of a turnaround. I like the way you put it, we need to fan the flames a little!

[flar]

I think Stinson would be wise to start with some smaller projects and build up his reputation and portfolio. With a couple successful small, more manageable projects he would be in a much better position to pull off his mega project.

[highwater]

I have patience, as this city moves as fast as paint peels in the Lister block…

Actually, paint peels pretty quickly when you leave the windows open to the elements. If our local developers applied the same kind of ingenuity and perseverance to creating something as they do to demolition by neglect, we might just be on our way! ;)

[hammergirl]

Thought everyone would be interested to know that on a visit to one of our local Ontario Travel Information Centres I obtained a nice, glossy brochure for the Royal Connaught Howard Johnson Plaza Hotel. I'm guessing it was the last pamphlet produced as it refers to the restaurant as the "Connaught Cafe" as opposed to Fran's. Still, seems to me Tourism Hamilton ought to be doing some better outreach.


YIKES! Sort of like the time 6 years ago when a poster on another board was looking for a place to stay in Hamilton and asked me if I was familiar with the Red Lion Inn. It was listed on the Hamilton Tourism site under accomodations. The poster was so excited as it was right across the street from Copps where they were attending a figure skating competition.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Geez Hammergirl--I hope you set them straight.

woreg75 - interesting post - that's the first post I've seen here that's bordering on "stream of conciousness"...I do agree that Hamilton has character--again, as I've said before, the 'outside' world doesn't look down on Hamilton nearly as much as it's own citizens.

[BCTed]

again, as I've said before, the 'outside' world doesn't look down on Hamilton nearly as much as it's own citizens.

I'm not really sure if I agree with this comment. In my experience, people from outside of Hamilton either have a very negative opinion of the city or are not familiar with it and thus have no opinion. I find that people within Hamilton have a more diverse set of attitudes --- some people are very down on the city for sure, but others are not.

One interesting thing that I have noticed in a couple of instances from people who have come to the GTA from outside the country over the last couple of years is that when Hamilton is mentioned, the first (and possibly only) thing that they think of is the airport. I am not sure if that is due to the radio ads from flyglobespan or if it has to do more with the fact that people generally try to find out about alternatives to Pearson when they are arranging flights.

[BCTed]

I'm not really sure if I agree with this comment. In my experience, people from outside of Hamilton either have a very negative opinion of the city or are not familiar with it and thus have no opinion. I find that people within Hamilton have a more diverse set of attitudes --- some people are very down on the city for sure, but others are not.

One interesting thing that I have noticed in a couple of instances from people who have come to the GTA from outside the country over the last couple of years is that when Hamilton is mentioned, the first (and possibly only) thing that they think of is the airport. I am not sure if that is due to the radio ads from flyglobespan or if it has to do more with the fact that people generally try to find out about alternatives to Pearson when they are arranging flights.

Am I banned or something? I can only see the above post when I am logged in. When I am logged out, I cannot see it.

[the dude]

hotel hamilton on james north has also been listed in tourist guides. what a shocker that would be! hopefully we'll rectify this lack of decent, vermin-free hotel space in the near future.

incidentally, regarding tourists in hamilton, it's kinda fun to play tourist in your own city...especially if you don't live downtown. book a room somewhere, go out for dinner - it gives you a completely different perspective of your city. several of our city councillors should try this!

[hammergirl]

Geez Hammergirl--I hope you set them straight.



I really had to think about where the Red Lion Inn was. Recognized the name but couldn't place it. Not exactly a place I frequent.

There were two posters looking to share a room. One poster I couldn't stand and one I was neutral on. It was tempting :haha: but I decided to be the gracious host and told them to avoid the Red Lion like the plague. I think they ended up at the Budget 2000 motel on King or Main East which was slightly better. Not a place where I would have sent two women. They refused to stay in Burlington though where there were rooms available.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Burlington and Brantford are often the only options--if there's the slightest hiccup of a convention/conference/tournament in Hamilton the room inventory is booked up in a heartbeat.

Have played tourist in Hamilton a few times--it is great. Years back stayed at the Sheraton on the 17th floor with a fantastic view across to the mountain--and some years later with the wife at the less illustrious Holiday Inn Express in Stoney Creek--fantastic view of SWARU if I recall correctly. Stayed at the Connaught on my prom night.

Is the City Motor Hotel still kicking out at the traffic circle? I remember inquiring about it when I was a kid--fascinated by the old Holiday Inn-esque knock-off of a sign--my dad--who grew up in Rosedale would always frown and change the subject...same when I would ask about the equally illustrious Town Manor on Main Street--same reaction. I think he'd sometimes mumble something about "ladies of the evening..." not that I had a clue what that meant.

[MsMe]

City Motor Hotel and Restaurant are still open. It did close a while ago for a bit, till it changed hands and re-opened.

[realcity]

So how scaled back will this be? Sounds like a different chain.

If the current owners have to build with their own money/investment this will be their 'scaled-back' building.
http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/cityview_terrace_rendering.jpg

[flar]

From the Realtors Association of Hamilton-Burlington:


Residential properties sold during June totalled 1,325 which included 1,052 freehold properties and 273 condominiums. Commercial sales for June, including industrial, farm, vacant land and business, totalled 49 units.

The average price of freehold residential properties sold in the month of June was $307,203, an increase of six per cent over last year. The average sale price reflects the dollar volume of residential sales divided by the number of total residential units sold.

In the condominium market the average price of condominiums in June was $210,358, an increase of 3.6 per cent over the June 2007. June’s total residential average sales price increased six per cent over the same month in 2007.

About 20% of residential properties sold in June were condos.

[thistleclub]

From the Realtors Association of Hamilton-Burlington

The numbers show promise. Thank heaven for hyphenates (http://www.burlingtoncondominiums.ca/burlington_condo_apartments.asp).

[matt602]

Yup, the City Motor is still going at it, weirdly enough. The place looks so dated though. I guess that's part of the "charm" or something. I stayed there for a night or two back about 6-7 years ago. It was pretty bad. A 1970's decor hotel room with a view of steel mills. So depressing.

[fastcarsfreedom]

It would make great movie location matt602, that's for sure. It's a classic, and fairly large at over 100 rooms. I've long wondered exactly how and why it stays in business, in it's benign state of neglect--I would guess long-term residents and short-stay clients--as in, by the hour. I mean, if we had to lose it or the much-loved Gulliver's--I know what one I would've chosen. Alas, Gulliver's was on the better real estate.

[matt602]

Funny you should say that, I've seen at least 2 different movies being filmed inside the courtyard area. Apparently someone else high up agreed with you. The last movie I saw being filmed was about a year ago, I would guess.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Cool--I suspected it would be a ripe spot for the locations scouts. Unadulterated "motor hotels" from that era are tough to find--they still exist in some abundance in warmer climates--but up here, where they were rare to begin with, most are long gone. The old Riveria Motor Courts on the Lakeshore in Burlington was impressively vintage also--but if I recall was ultimately sacrificed in the name of the condo.

[thistleclub]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP_4aIenueM

[MatchstickMan]

I have read through much of this thread with great interest and what I have to say is....wow. Just wow.

Through probably nothing more than sheer dumb luck, this city was able to land one of the greatest Canadian visionaries of our time, and most people on this board railed against him from Day 1 and are congratulating themselves now that he has apparently failed. Wow.

The only reason why Harry Stinson's previous projects were not tremendous successes is the fact that the people with money pushed him around and tried to capture all of the glory for themselves. They saw Harry as expendable, but were very wrong, as evidenced by the wrong turns that the projects took once Harry was out of the picture.

A project of the type that Harry proposed would not only have been an unqualified success, but it would have served as a catalyst for the tranformation and revitalization of the downtown and the city as a whole. The only reason why it did not happen was because of the screw-ups of his money men in the past. He wasn't able to pull everything together in a couple of months and people on this board were only so happy to jump on it as another "failure." Give me a break.

This city is not likely to see another talent like Harry Stinson any time in the near future, so let's hope that he is not too disgusted by his treatment here and sticks around. I have every expectation that he will continue to do great things in the future, and I can only hope that these great things happen here. Let's hope that he does not hear the people on this board who are trying to run him out of town.

I hope that those of you who predicted Harry's failure are happy. I bet you have ridiculous, smug, self-congratulating smirks on your faces. Enjoy.

[MatchstickMan]

Cool--I suspected it would be a ripe spot for the locations scouts. Unadulterated "motor hotels" from that era are tough to find--they still exist in some abundance in warmer climates--but up here, where they were rare to begin with, most are long gone. The old Riveria Motor Courts on the Lakeshore in Burlington was impressively vintage also--but if I recall was ultimately sacrificed in the name of the condo.

The City Motor Hotel recently appeared in the movie "Clean" with Nick Nolte and I believe it was also prominent in a Samuel L. Jackson/Eugene Levy movie called "The Man" or something like that. It has been used in other movie shoots over the years as well.

[FairHamilton]

I hope that those of you who predicted Harry's failure are happy. I bet you have ridiculous, smug, self-congratulating smirks on your faces. Enjoy.

Yes, we do have smirks. Though we are still hoping for someone who has two matchsticks to rub together comes along.

[ryan_mcgreal]

It seems to me that Stinson's got great instincts when it comes to the projects themselves but can't seem to stay on top of the financial side.

As a commenter on RTH put it not long ago, Stinson's failures turn out better than most people's successes. Look at Candy Factory and 1KW. As financial projects they were disasters but as architectural projects they were exactly the right thing at the right time (or perhaps a little before their time): urban, stylish, elegantly fusing the classic and historical with the hip and modern, and very popular with their tenants.

I think it's both naive and premature to dismiss Stinson as either a lightweight or a scammer. For both good and ill, he's a visionary working in a world of bean counters.

[markbarbera]

Rumour has it that Kichi vetoed the sale because one of Stinson's investors was a rival hotelier (figure out who yourself) that Kichi did not want operating so close to Kichi's Crown Plaza, and Stinson was not able to find a replacement backer before the clock ran out. Can anyone confirm?

[raisethehammer]

Rumour has it that Kichi vetoed the sale because one of Stinson's investors was a rival hotelier (figure out who yourself) that Kichi did not want operating so close to Kichi's Crown Plaza, and Stinson was not able to find a replacement backer before the clock ran out. Can anyone confirm?

I can't confirm those details, but I can confirm that Kichi is a jerk who would certainly do that.

[fastcarsfreedom]

A jerk perhaps--a jerk who also just sunk several million dollars into a ratty, mostly forgotten hotel that has been brought into the new millenium and up several rungs on the hotel scale.

As for the veto--who knows--but considering Stinson's hotel proposal kept shrinking, I highly doubt Kichi would've been threatened by a small boutique hotel of the ilk Sintson was proposing.

1KW is a stunning success from the vantage point of the person standing on the street looking at the structure--as in, those people without vested interests in the building. To those who's money is tied up in the project, it's an abject train-wreck. I don't dispute the grandeur and boldness of Stinson's vision--I also know I drew some pretty impressive buildings in the back of my school notebooks--the world is full of great ideas.

[raisethehammer]

A jerk perhaps--a jerk who also just sunk several million dollars into a ratty, mostly forgotten hotel that has been brought into the new millenium and up several rungs on the hotel scale.

As for the veto--who knows--but considering Stinson's hotel proposal kept shrinking, I highly doubt Kichi would've been threatened by a small boutique hotel of the ilk Sintson was proposing.

1KW is a stunning success from the vantage point of the person standing on the street looking at the structure--as in, those people without vested interests in the building. To those who's money is tied up in the project, it's an abject train-wreck. I don't dispute the grandeur and boldness of Stinson's vision--I also know I drew some pretty impressive buildings in the back of my school notebooks--the world is full of great ideas.


true enough about Kichi...but why would he NOT want the Stinson project to go ahead?? 80 stories of people living next to his Crowne Plaza. A huge boost to the area. Spinoff construction. Conventions for his agonizingly slow 'under construction' conference centre etc.....
makes no sense. he should be salivating at the prospect of someone building something like this across the street from him. Isn't that what someone would hope for when investing their own money?? or does he hope for a future of Maxims strip club, Buttinsky's and a never-completed conference centre???

[matt602]

Well said, fastcars. Why call a guy a jerk that invested millions of dollars into properties downtown? The Crowne Plaza is gonna be a beauty once it's done, which is saying a lot because it was very ugly before. He took a huge risk by doing all of this and he's owed some recognition.

[raisethehammer]

let's keep in mind that someone can be a jerk and still do good things in the city.
Ahem, Darko and Dennis???

[matt602]

Darko maybe but what good things can we attribute to the other? I know I'm beating a dead horse but his sexual harassment incident keeps popping up in my mind whenever I see his name mentioned.

[highwater]

More like Sexual ASSAULT. He's a total creep.

[DC83]

So I saw Harry with two business-type guys with clipboards taking notes and walking around the Connaught on my way home from work tdoay. This was around 4:00-4:15pm.

Ready... Set... SPECULATE!

[adam]

Did they look like this?? ----> :deal: :) :deal:

Remember any publicity is good publicity!

[DC83]

^^ pretty much, yep! hahaha

Well my question was answered with THIS THREAD (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=156650) anyway. Interesting stuff!

[matt602]

They weren't the only suits poking around the Connaught in the last week. Battaglia (I would assume) was also showing around some people. They ended up going into the building (and of course I followed, being the nosey shmuck I am) paying close attention to the lobby and ball room.

[DC83]

^^ fun. I bet those are the 'potential developers' he was referring to in that Spec article today.

Thanks, Harry. Your craaaazy ideas certainly did a LOT more for the Connaught in 6 months then the Bataglia&Co has done since 2003! Remember, it wasn't them who showed Harry the Connaught. He found it himself!!

[realcity]

There is one huge benefit from this proposal.... even tho it died.

It got Hamilton more national *positive* press then any story *good or bad* since Plastimet.

[matt602]

The place sure is dead now... sitting, rotting away some more. They're also getting lazy about securing it again, so more damage is being done on the inside. The poor old building is being raped.

[bornagainbiking]

Those who don't study their past are bound to repeat it. or close.
Is this the sequel to the Lister Block and all the recent decay ot that entire area with building either falling down or demolished for safety.
Will the city buy it for a huge cost from LUINA and let them renovate it.
Will this be like the old theatre and we wait for the roof to collapse?:koko:
Why do we let people buy properties and sit on them for decades and let them rot? It should be against some bylaw.

[emge]

Or the city should at least charge property taxes on vacant properties. Seriously, it's insane. You buy a building, you take up the costs associated with it, not make a profit without paying costs until it's super-profitable.

[FairHamilton]

I don't think that LIUNA owns that property, though I believe that LIUNA honcho Joe Mancinelli is part of the group called Hi-Rise that owns the Royal Connaught.

[matt602]

Close but your facts are a bit mixed up. Joe Mancinelli is indeed of LIUNA but they have nothing to do with Hi-Rise. That's another group separate of LIUNA that has something to do with the Lister project. The Connaught is owned by a consortium of different people including Joe from LIUNA, Tony Battaglia, Mario Frankovich and Oscar Kichi. They all represent various big deal firms and all hold some kind of stake in the property.

[SteelTown]

It's really Tony Battaglia that's running the show with the Connaught. The rest are just guys with money.

Hi-Rise is a Toronto company.

[DHLawrence]

We need to make him an offer he can't refuse!

[SteelTown]

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/D5A69D62-38AA-4F7F-8519-241817EBDCC0/0/Sep09Item85CS09061COAHPConstructionReadyRental.pdf

There's the deal to have a mixed used building with market rate suites with affordable housing.

The proposal submitted by the Grand Connaught Development Group Inc., In Trust, for the former Royal Connaught Hotel is particularly attractive. COAHP (Canada-Ontario Affordable Housing Program) funding of 100 rental units will be the catalyst for the creation of an additional 106 market-rate rental units (for a total of 206 rental units), 20,000 square feet of commercial space and the reuse and revitalization of a significant community landmark in downtown Hamilton.

[realcity]

BS

all the units will end up being affordable. This is what Spallacci said too.

and what's downtown going to do with 20,000 sq ft off more retail? Unless it's one big SHoppers Drugmart, it'll sit as empty as the new King East at John retail space.

[SteelTown]

100 units for seniors so think of First Place with 106 market rate suites.

But seriously $129,000 per unit is kinda high for an affordable unit. Must be spacious units for that high price.

[Millstone]

100 units for seniors so think of First Place with 106 market rate suites.

But seriously $129,000 per unit is kinda high for an affordable unit. Must be spacious units for that high price.

I just sold my 570 sqft unit at the Annex for about that.

[matt602]

Don't like it. Don't like it at all.

[Hammer Native]

Agreed, this is not the way I want to see historical old buildings of this calibre saved. This was our only grand old hotel, lets keep it that way. Some offices above, maybe. But a building with this beauty should be kept public for all to see. There has to be investors in the hospitality business somewhere in this whole wide world that would be interested in having a look at it. I can't believe there's not the money out there, be it offshore, or wherever, that could be a potential investor. I hope people be very vocal about this if they think it's a bad idea. I say call in some bright minds to market the property.

[drpgq]

What a sad state of affairs. Not just seniors housing, but also disabled, meaning even more scooters downtown. I have to say as a renter myself, I am not sure how keen I would be on renting a unit in such a large building with half of the units as affordable housing. Basically we are accepting federal money to facilitate the ghettoization of the downtown.

At least they were honest with this line:

Do the options you are recommending make Hamilton a City of choice for high performance public servants? No

[Rico Rommheim]

Hi all, I haven't been keeping track of this project but I just happened to stumble upon this thread and caught a few posts...so let me understand this. The Royal Connaught is being converted into a seniors home? What the hell happened to Stinson?

[Jon Dalton]

This is garbage.

[SteelTown]

Hi all, I haven't been keeping track of this project but I just happened to stumble upon this thread and caught a few posts...so let me understand this. The Royal Connaught is being converted into a seniors home? What the hell happened to Stinson?

Stinson couldn't reach an agreement with the present owner of the Connaught, so Stinson's proposal died.

Now the present owner has a proposal to turn the Connaught into a mixed income and mixed used residential building.

[Rico Rommheim]

Stinson couldn't reach an agreement with the present owner of the Connaught, so Stinson's proposal died.

Now the present owner has a proposal to turn the Connaught into a mixed income and mixed used residential building.

Thanks. Doesn't sound like much.

[adam]

I don't like it either, but with all the aging baby boomers, geriatrics is going to be very lucrative in years to come. If they want to maximize their investments, this is probably a safe bet.

[FairHamilton]

I've said this to many on this board one-on-one. Downtown Hamilton is now being used as a dumping ground for seniors.

Off the top of my head, proposals I can name for seniors residences are, next to Lister, Staybridges conversion, Gibson School, Royal Connaught. And there may be additional.

People this is a very disturbing trend. In downtown Hamilton, first it was shelters, then affordable housing, now seniors. We need mix and diversity, not ghettoization.

[SABBATICAL!]

Was talking to a friend who was working on a film crew doing work inside the Connaught, and apparently they had to cancel work in there because a hazardous mold was discovered to have infested most of the spaces they were using. Yay.

[highwater]

No doubt tax payers will be on the hook for removing the mold caused by years of owner neglect.

[markbarbera]

I've said this to many on this board one-on-one. Downtown Hamilton is now being used as a dumping ground for seniors.

Off the top of my head, proposals I can name for seniors residences are, next to Lister, Staybridges conversion, Gibson School, Royal Connaught. And there may be additional.

People this is a very disturbing trend. In downtown Hamilton, first it was shelters, then affordable housing, now seniors. We need mix and diversity, not ghettoization.

Overall, this is a relatively small number of senior's projects, but I do share concern that this may be a start of a trend that could be detrimental to the core's health. As long as these projects are balanced with a proportionate amount of market-value residences, there wouldn't be a threat of ghettoization of the downtown (if a concentration of seniors residences could truly be considered ghettoization).

I'd like to see more about this Royal Connaught development proposal before casting judgement. It does seem to indicate a 50/50 split between affordable housing and market-rate rental units. From my experience as a former director of a successful downtown Toronto co-op, this is a good mix for residential rental units.

I would think there would be a more suitable use for this building, be it a hotel residential mix or some sort of condo development. The owners obviously have had trouble securing financing for redevelopment for several years now, and are relying on public money to get things going. If it is not redeveloped in this format, it would likely be a couple more years of vacancy before another proposal comes along.

As an aside, could Gibson school really be considered downtown? If this is the school I am thinking about, it's on Barton between Sanford and Sherman.

[adam]

I think you are right. Small steady improvements are the right thing for the downtown right now.. Worst case scenario - no NHL team and no LRT - then we might see an all market-value condo once the new farmer's market and library is finished..? Then I'm thinking a grocery store in the core a year or two after that.... ?

[highwater]

(if a concentration of seniors residences could truly be considered ghettoization).

A concentration of any one demographic is ghettoization AFAIC, if you take 'ghettoization' to mean 'separation' as opposed to the image of poor, crime-ridden neighbourhoods. I would argue Hess Village has become a 'ghetto'.

I'd like to see more about this Royal Connaught development proposal before casting judgement. It does seem to indicate a 50/50 split between affordable housing and market-rate rental units. From my experience as a former director of a successful downtown Toronto co-op, this is a good mix for residential rental units.

I think the problem here is one of trust. It could very well be a good mix, but then you have to have faith that the owners will execute the project as proposed. We've seen enough bad faith development in this town. It's not surprising people are angry and skeptical.

[FairHamilton]

highwater, Both excellent points and exactly to my meaning of ghettoizaton. I highly doubt we'll see a good mix from this proposed development.

For a minute forget all the bad faith development that has happened in Hamilton. Lets just focus on the bad faith development by Grand Connaught, that own and are trying to develop this building. The taxpayers in the City of Hamilton contributed $230K for asbestos removal at this site as part of a 5 Diamond Hotel development that never materialized with these same developers.

No development really meant we should have gotten our money back, but didn't

Also, I doubt there are any timelines on when any market rate units are to be completed, thus allowing for that phase to sit and languish. If any commercial is developed (and I'm guessing it will also languish with the market rate units), it's not needed in Hamilton.

Also, I object to the statement from the city;
The construction of these new rental units would result in community-wide housing, economic, and social benefits to the City, including brownfield redevelopment, residential intensification and would be a catalyst for downtown and neighbourhood revitalization.

First Place has 513 units and does anyone think it has revitalized that neighbourhood/section of King Street? Admittedly, this statement is from an article written 2 years ago, and it doesn't paint a picture of revitalization in an area with a large scale seniors building. I don't think much has changed in the past 2 years for the positive since it was written in The Spec in mid-September 2007.

The vacancy rate for apartments has improved, Murray said, but not for the commercial units at street level. The city's community services department is looking at placing some of its staff in the commercial units, he said.

Finally, as nice as the Terrace on King look, it's done little for the revitalization of the neighbourhood along King Street. The street front retail in the Terraces remains empty, and off the top-of-my head both Three16 & Spoons have closed since that building opened. Catalyst for downtown and neighbourhood revitalization, huh! These people (city staffers) must think we are stupid.

[markbarbera]

Accepting this broad definition of ghettoization, it begs the question - is ghettoization necessarily a bad thing? The ghettoization of Church Street in Toronto has actually made it one of the more vibrant residential and commercial communities in downtown Toronto. Wouldn't the concentration of artists along James North also be considered a form of ghettoization?

There is an assumption being made here that senior residences equates with poverty. That is not necessarily a valid assumption. Seniors do tend to have a fixed income, which on the onset sounds like a bad thing for the core. However, they also tend to spend their funds in close proximity to their place of residence, so that money will flow to businesses in the downtown. It may seem paltry, but it is more cash flow than is currently present.

I think the problem here is the developers have little options available to them, particularly in the midst of the current recession. While the idea of high-end hotel condos might sound great on paper, the fact remains that the owners of this building have been trying for years to secure financing for such a development. And while it is easy to blame these particular developers for failure to secure financing (review my previous posts, I hold no fondness for this group of people), the simple fact remains that lenders are still reticent to invest in condo and commercial development in downtown Hamilton, regardless of who the developer is. Such was the case for this group, so also was it the case for Stinson and for the Spallaci Group (the Terraces was originally envisioned as condos back in 2006, but financing couldn't be secured for that development either).

As far as the city funding of the asbestos removal in Connaught goes, I don't recall the funding being contingent upon its redevelopment specifically as a hotel. At least the city can recoup some of this monies once it is redeveloped as a residential apartment and is paying taxes back into the city coffers.

[FairHamilton]

Do you care about downtown? Put your body and view, where your keystrokes are on this board.

The Honorable Jim Watson, Minister of Municipal Affairs and
Housing, is coming to Hamilton as part of a province-wide
consultation on a long term affordable housing strategy.
Join In The Discussion and Have Your Say!
Thursday, September 10
6:30 - 9:30 pm
Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Resurrection
821 Upper Wentworth St, Hamilton

Bus from downtown: #25 Upper Wentworth to Mohawk Rd
To register for the session, http://www.mah.gov.on.ca and
follow the links for Affordable Housing Consultation.
You can also phone 1 877 224 7271.

THE MINISTER WANTS TO KNOW YOUR VIEWS ON
AFFORDABLE HOUSING
SOLUTIONS
BUS TICKETS AVAILABLE
LIGHT REFRESHMENTS WILL BE SERVED

[SteelTown]

Connaught: From high-rent to affordable
Developers seeking government money

September 10, 2009
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/631894

The city is recommending the historic Royal Connaught be redeveloped for affordable housing.

The hotel's owners are seeking more than $18 million in government assistance for the $27-million mixed-use project that would feature 100 units with rents 20 per cent below market value, another 106 market-rate units and 20,000 square feet of commercial space.

Downtown Councillor Bob Bratina admits he's conflicted about the proposal, saying it wouldn't be his first choice for the 1916 landmark.

"But we can't leave that building empty forever."

The city recently asked developers to submit proposals that could be considered for funding under the Canada-Ontario Affordable Housing Program. Six projects were selected and prioritized by city staff. The Connaught got top ranking. Councillors signed off on the recommendation yesterday, but it must still be approved by council next Wednesday night.

If selected by the province, the project would receive $12.9 million from the housing program and $5.6 million in tax and fee breaks from the city. The units would be geared toward seniors and the disabled.

Tony Battaglia, spokesperson for Grand Connaught Development Group Inc., said the plan represents the best chance of redevelopment.

"The reality is the market place is not very strong in the hotel sector," he said, noting a lack of financing. "We don't want to keep the project sitting there without money."

The property is large enough that there could still be a hotel portion if the market changes, said Battaglia.

The local consortium bought the hotel for $4.5 million after it went into receivership in 2004.

Battaglia declined to discuss the group's ownership structure yesterday. Originally it included local investors, such as Battaglia, LIUNA international vice-president Joe Mancinelli, hotelier Oscar Kichi, builder Ted Valeri and investment executive Mario Frankovich.

In the five years the hotel has sat vacant, there have been several failed revival attempts. Most recently developer Harry Stinson proposed a large condo project, but couldn't find financing.

Yesterday he called the affordable housing proposal a "sad evolution" for the building, but noted there have been successful mixed-rental projects in Toronto.

"It will be positive to have the building alive and occupied," Stinson said. "Clearly I would have had grander visions."

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said the plan achieves the city's goal of bringing more people to the core.

"I think it's time to get something happening at that location."

But Councillor Chad Collins said he needs to hear more about the project's merits, noting he and others have a different vision for the symbolic property.

"I bet the last thing on people's list is affordable housing."

Battaglia said people's opinions will depend on how they view affordable housing. The units will be targeted toward the working poor.

"Downtown cores are made for all kinds of people," he said.

The development group is working with Rudi Spallacci, who recently finished another affordable housing project, Terraces on King.

The city's downtown renewal office has been talking with the group about other funding opportunities, such as the residential loan program, said director Ron Marini, who fully supports the project.

"I don't see a downside to it."

[flar]

"Downtown cores are made for all kinds of people," he said.

Apparently downtown Hamilton is for the poor.

I've said this again and again, with all due compassion to the poor, disabled and downtrodden of our society, but the very harsh reality is that most middle class people with cars and homes and good jobs will not mingle with the kinds of people who will live in this building. People don't think the lower city is the ghetto because the buildings are old, they're passing judgement on the kinds of people who live there.

Some people are able to leave this kind of social prejudice behind them after high school, but the unfortunate reality is that most do not.

[adam]

Very few middle class are willing to raise a family in an area that is predominantly welfare and unemployed. it has been said many times before, the downtown core needs diversification. This will be a step backwards to that goal.

[FairHamilton]

Success, breeds success. Positive energy feeds off positive energy. The flip side of that is also true.

Interesting points from The Spec article;
The property is large enough that there could still be a hotel portion if the market changes, said Battaglia.

There's a carrot, lol. If you pay for the first part, we might give you a hotel. I don't believe it for a millesecond.

Battaglia declined to discuss the group's ownership structure yesterday.

Nothing like being transparent when siding up to the public trough.

The units will be targeted toward the working poor.

Hmm, where did the seniors and disabled from the City's report go? Small hotel rooms, converted to apartments. Do I read single men (i.e. flop house) between the lines in that statement.

"Downtown cores are made for all kinds of people," he said.

He's right, there's City Housing across the street, Terraces down the street, oh wait a second.........

The city's downtown renewal office has been talking with the group about other funding opportunities, such as the residential loan program, said director Ron Marini, who fully supports the project.

So the $18M is only the start, there's more government support in the form of a residential loan.

City of Hamilton, run from this now!!! City of Hamilton when it cost tens of millions of taxpayers dollars and the downtown core is forever changed it will too late.

[realcity]

All good comments Fair


"the hotel's owners are seeking more than $18 million in government assistance.."
-- like thats a big surprise. they don't put there own money on the line, just Lister


"No market for hotel rooms"???? maybe right this second, but if they started building a hotel now the economy would be different by the time it was completed. They talk like this recession will last forever. Same garbage was heard from Darko re: his mythical hotel too.

[thistleclub]

Now the Delta Bingo facelift is starting to make sense.

Anyone have any idea how much commercial uplift spins off of the Gore and the Spallaci? Or how many of the vacant storefronts along King between John and Wellington would fit in the proposed 20,000 square feet of commercial space?

[emge]

We don't have enough hotel space to attract major events and conventions, but without those, there's no incentive to build hotel space. What terrible myopia and circular reasoning... you'd think there would be some city incentive to build hotels and attractions in the core and change the economics of downtown a bit.

[Hammer Native]

This city lost out on a lot of conventions because of a LACK of adequate hotel space, so the events went elsewhere that did.

We're just starting to hear from the councilors. Chad Collins doesn't like it, Bob Bratina mixed feelings, (he didn't like the Lister deal). The Mayor, -- what is he thinking? Time they heard from us.

These guys wanted to get into the hotel business and failed. Plain and simple. They should be pressured to put up the property for sale at whatever the market value is for it, in the state they've allowed it to decline to, not have more tax money forked over to them for this ludicrous project.

Yes the recession won't last forever. And now it's looking like an NHL team and hosting international games may not be just pipe dreams anymore. The need for hotel space could be at a premium in the future and we're thinking of depleting it?

I don't know how hard these guys tried to arrange financing aside from our neighbourhood banks who are never any help and maybe some sketchy investors. But I can't believe the money is not out there within the hospitality industry that some company would take a look at it, be it from offshore or U.S. Hell, I bet Paris HILTON would have stood a better chance of getting a hotel going than these guys.

I try to look past the stigma we may have with the image of the smokestacks and the heavy industry, and look for other characteristics of the city I am proud of, and I can. But with events like this allowed to happen it gets harder. Business groups like this are what we have for movers and shakers? Pitiful. And our politicians bow to them. I also try not to be Toronto-centric and think the grass is greener down there. But would they in a million years allow this to happen to the Royal York even if that hotel did run into financial problems?

[SteelTown]

They wanted a higher brand hotel chain, they even talked to Fairmount.

I'm sure if they talked to say Delta, Westin, Hilton, etc. The mid range hotel brand it could work.

There was a report saying Hotel business would boom in Hamilton from the Government of Canada. That's one of the reason Days Inn was able to get a loan to finance the construction of that project.

[emge]

I wonder if we end up getting some of these major things (NHL, Pan Am, etc) before this deal goes through if what's planned will change.

It doesn't make any sense to have downtown (a concentration of skilled jobs and retail) filled with people who aren't working at those skilled jobs or spending money at the retail.

Better to locate seniors near the amenities they need (medical, recreation, community centres and the like), and working poor in neighbourhoods near their workplaces. Unless the Connaught is filled with janitorial staff and Tim's workers from Jackson, that ain't gonna happen.

[flar]

These guys should put the building up for sale. It would sell if it was priced right, but they probably think it's worth $10 million or more.

But yes, the current speculators and property owners in downtown Hamilton are terrible. All they ever do is milk various levels of government for money and never accomplish anything. They'd all do themselves a favour if they sold some of their properties to people who can make things happen. Then the rest of their properties might finally be worth something.

When will they get it through their heads that property and buildings in downtown Hamilton are presently virtually worthless? If there is no demand and no improvement, values will not increase simply by sitting on them and waiting. Milking the government should not be a viable business plan in the interim.

[drpgq]

Hmm, where did the seniors and disabled from the City's report go? Small hotel rooms, converted to apartments. Do I read single men (i.e. flop house) between the lines in that statement.




I think this is a really good point. Is it for seniors and the disabled or for the working poor? What's up with the obfuscation? Honestly the lack of disposable income means that these people might as well not even be there for all the effect their spending would have on the core. Long term disability pays almost nothing.

When the city is examining these proposals, I have to wonder how they look at some of the less direct effects. Obviously, adding a resident to the city such as one intended for the Connaught versus a middle class resident (or god forbid, an upper middle class one) means a huge difference in demand for city services. Adding someone who needs DARTS for example is hugely expensive. And what about the impact on the property taxes of the building? I must admit I am pretty ignorant of the residential tax rates for apartment buildings. Would this qualify for the regular 4.1% rate or the lower one for new buildings? What would be the difference in assessment for the low income housing option versus a hotel or all premium apartments?

Just because there is federal money doesn't mean we should take it. Frankly this is analogous to someone giving you money to buy the noose to hang yourself.

[realcity]

It's like the "shovel ready" tune City Hall is always singing.

Then the next single off their greatest hits was "We need more hotel rooms" for convention business and to help tourism Hamilton. Now they allow this to happen??? just unbelievable

Interesting that Buffalo and Detroit's (#2 and #1 poorest cities in the US) biggest employers are healthcare and education too. something to ponder

[Jon Dalton]

More subsidized housing on King East will also feed the negative feedback cycle of low end establishments in the retail spaces which drive away people with money who to support quality establishments thus weakening the market for such even further, thus opening up the market for more subsidized housing. There is already too much affordable housing downtown. What we need to do is properly manage it and that means more than anything decentralize. What is East Hastings but a concentration of affordable housing?

King Street East, 2025?
http://media.nowpublic.net/images//8f/4/8f494e78ad92b9c122ad3bfb1b03f215.jpg

[matt602]

This "project" disgusts me more and more every day.

The similarities between this and Lister are utterly shocking and yet not at all surprising. Same idiots, same "deal". They won't build anything on their own dime and they won't let the building go unless they can fetch 5 times more than it's worth.

We need to stand up to this shit primarily because if it goes through, it is us tax payers funding it. This is almost worse than the whole Lister demolition issue. I, for one, will not stand by and let this beautiful building get raped any long. It has been abandoned and whored out to movie studios for 5 years now. It deserves a grand restoration and return to high class hotel service.

[drpgq]

There are similarities, but this project disgusts me a lot more. I'm a bit surprised that Bratina compares this to Lister and is on the fence. To me this is much worse. Sure Lister slurped up a ton of government funding, but at least it ends up with government offices and a minor albeit really expensive plus. Imagine if the Lister was renovated and it ended up as affordable housing.

This project is madness. I wonder, is this something that a group of concerned citizens could go to the OMB for? Because frankly, on the internet everyone seems to be dead set against it, but in the Spec there seems to be an element of whatever, which really concerns me.

This "project" disgusts me more and more every day.

The similarities between this and Lister are utterly shocking and yet not at all surprising. Same idiots, same "deal". They won't build anything on their own dime and they won't let the building go unless they can fetch 5 times more than it's worth.

We need to stand up to this shit primarily because if it goes through, it is us tax payers funding it. This is almost worse than the whole Lister demolition issue. I, for one, will not stand by and let this beautiful building get raped any long. It has been abandoned and whored out to movie studios for 5 years now. It deserves a grand restoration and return to high class hotel service.

[SteelTown]

This project is madness. I wonder, is this something that a group of concerned citizens could go to the OMB for?

Nope, the property is zoned for residential so there would be no OMB case.

[SteelTown]

Connaught housing plan met city's 'rigorous' guidelines

September 11, 2009
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/632597

The proposal to redevelop the Royal Connaught for affordable housing received the highest grade in the city's screening process.

Staff pored over a dozen proposals to judge which ones were most viable and should be submitted for government funding, said Keith Extance, the city's director of housing.

"We're fairly rigorous in our ... evaluations."

Six proposals made the cut, with the Connaught project earning the top mark for its overall plan.

Extance said the proposals are ranked based on the strength of the bidder, site characteristics, readiness of the project, location and the business case. To qualify, private developers must provide financial statements to show they have 10 per cent equity.

Grand Connaught Development Group Inc. wants to redevelop the downtown landmark to build 100 affordable housing units, another 106 market-rate units and 20,000 square feet of commercial space.

The affordable units, targeted toward seniors, the disabled and working poor, will offer rents 20 per cent below market value. Tenants must qualify for city housing.

The consortium is seeking some $18 million in government assistance for the $27-million proposal.

Spokesperson Tony Battaglia confirmed yesterday that the consortium's ownership has changed since the group purchased the historic property shortly after it went into receivership in 2004.

A corporate search lists multiple directors, including Battaglia, hotelier Oscar Kichi, builder Ted Valeri and American businessman Mehran Koranki.

Investor Mario Frankovich and the Mancinelli family are no longer involved. However, LIUNA vice-president Joe Mancinelli said the union is in talks with the consortium about providing financial backing for the project.

"I'm hopeful it works because we'd love to be involved," he said, noting he believes the project can be profitable.

The city requires bidders to demonstrate their ability to complete a project. Extance said it's important to weed out groups that mean well but don't have the backing or experience to make a project happen.

"There has to be the financial wherewithal from these groups."

The Connaught group has failed to secure financing in recent years for a hotel project because of the poor market conditions, Kichi said. Affordable housing wouldn't be his preferred option for the building, but he said it represents the best chance for redevelopment.

"It's unfortunate that it got to this ... There was no choice."

The project's evolution is symbolic of the challenge faced by all investors in the downtown, Frankovich said. Property values are so low that developers require a high level of equity before banks will consider financing, he explained, noting it is cheaper to invest elsewhere.

The only large projects that receive financing often have government backing, Frankovich added.

If selected by the province, the Connaught project would receive $12.9 million from a government housing program and $5.6 million in tax and fee breaks from the city. The consortium is also in talks with the city about further incentives.

The development proposal is already sparking debate, with some observers questioning whether it will help or hurt the core.

"The last thing government money should be used for is a massive project that will inject a huge group of more poor people downtown," downtown advocate Jason Leach wrote in an entry for the online magazine Raise the Hammer.

The city report recommending the Connaught project argues it will be a catalyst for renewal.

Just down the street from the hotel, another affordable housing project, Terraces on King, has generated economic spinoffs, said Mary Pocius, executive director of the International Village BIA.

The Connaught group has hired the Terraces' backer, Rudi Spallacci, as a consultant. His project, which transformed a former eyesore into 123 affordable housing units, has injected new residents and money into the area, Pocius said.

"It's been nothing but positive."

[Lukey]

It has been abandoned and whored out to movie studios for 5 years now.

Indeed, I drove by last night and they were filming inside again.

I was wondering if anyone knew what type of apartments were in the Pigott building. The progression went commercial, apartments and then transformed to condo's in 1996. Were the apartments rented at market value, below or a combination?

While I don't like the proposal for the Connaught and think once apartments are in place, it becomes difficult to transform. I was just wondering if there have been any instances where a conversion has happened in Hamilton.

[bornagainbiking]

Some may be against affordable housing but there will be alot of money involved and anything (as long as it is properly monitored) is better than empty and decaying daily.
One option that may be suggested is a combination of two problems.
When Mac had the fire and students were displaced downtown it helped out the businesses and maybe Westdale needs the relief of studnet housing and regain the affordable family type residental neighbourhoods (YEAR-ROUND).
So I noticed a neat concept in Barrie and I hear McGill in Monreal does something similar.
You set it up as spartan student residence, with Mohawk and Mac not to mention Columbia you could put up students (End Aug to end may or early June) and it would help out the downtown. In the summer affordable hostel or family type basic hotel. Georgian College on Duckworth in Barrie does this. Use it for student nurses on co-op. Lab techs for the new medical centre across from City Hall when it is finalized.
Maybe have a direct school bus to Mac and Mohawk morning and afterschool to ease the load on HSR.
Mohawk as a site downtown and so does Mac.
People need affordable housing but downtown is not the place to raise a kid. :shrug: :shrug:

[highwater]

One option that may be suggested is a combination of two problems.
When Mac had the fire and students were displaced downtown it helped out the businesses and maybe Westdale needs the relief of studnet housing and regain the affordable family type residental neighbourhoods (YEAR-ROUND).

Mac has made it clear time and time again that they will not entertain the idea of a student residence downtown. The students who were displaced after the fire were very unhappy downtown and couldn't wait to get out.

People need affordable housing but downtown is not the place to raise a kid. :shrug: :shrug:

Fear not. This project is intended for seniors and disabled no matter how much Marini and Battaglia blather on about the 'working poor'.

[highwater]

This "project" disgusts me more and more every day.

Well then you'll love this: according to a commenter on RTH yesterday, Battaglia and his shadowy cabal are in talks with the city to locate social services in the so-called retail space.

[FairHamilton]

Just down the street from the hotel, another affordable housing project, Terraces on King, has generated economic spinoffs, said Mary Pocius, executive director of the International Village BIA.

I hope someone challenges her on that statement. Perhaps she has information, not evident to those of us walking past the closed businesses on the street.

I was up early and walked by the Terraces this morning. I particularily like how the use folding chairs in the lobby. Most buildings have little club chair and tables set for those waiting for someone. But not in below market rate apartments, they get folding card chairs...........

[FairHamilton]

There are similarities, but this project disgusts me a lot more. I'm a bit surprised that Bratina compares this to Lister and is on the fence. To me this is much worse. Sure Lister slurped up a ton of government funding, but at least it ends up with government offices and a minor albeit really expensive plus. Imagine if the Lister was renovated and it ended up as affordable housing.

This project is madness. I wonder, is this something that a group of concerned citizens could go to the OMB for? Because frankly, on the internet everyone seems to be dead set against it, but in the Spec there seems to be an element of whatever, which really concerns me.

Anyone interested in a focused opposition to this project please PM me directly. Talking about it on an open forum is not going to move things very far forward.

[oldcoote]

There is already too much affordable housing downtown.

I got lambasted for saying this on RTH, but I entirely agree.

[realcity]

Mary Pocius needs to go. Aren't there terms for these people. Same as Drewitt.

Spallaci was a scam from the beginning. Pitched as condos but construction was never going to start until they got public funding for affordable housing.

It's simple the building sat empty so they don't pay taxes.

The Connaught was an operating hotel before these guys took it over. Then make it vacant so they don't have to pay taxes, in the meantime get $4 million of city grants -- because it was pitched as a redevelopment into a 5 star hotel -- then use the money to remove the asbestos and leave empty for an opportunity like this.