[Jamaican-Phoenix]

An article from the Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/275075

Nov 09, 2007 04:30 AM
Robert Benzie
Rob Ferguson
Queen's Park Bureau

Premier Dalton McGuinty took a message from the cities to Prime Minister Stephen Harper yesterday: Please help.

Harper's reply: Don't bother asking.

The two leaders met privately for 45 minutes yesterday at a downtown hotel, with the premier suggesting federal funding could help cash-strapped Ontario municipalities.

"I raised the issue directly with Mr. Harper as to whether his government had any interest whatsoever in lending direct support to our municipal partners," McGuinty told reporters later.

"It would be fair to say that he is not particularly receptive to that approach."

McGuinty also asked Harper about cutting interest rates in an effort to cool a red-hot loonie that has been hurting Ontario's manufacturing sector.

Toronto Mayor David Miller has been asking that one percentage point of the federal GST be given to municipalities, which would mean $410 million a year to help the city build and maintain roads, bridges and expressways.

And this week, Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion launched her own campaign to get federal funding for infrastructure costs after council voted to impose a 5 per cent levy on property taxes to pay for repairs and replacement of aging bridges, roads and sewer and water systems.

But sources say the Prime Minister emphasized in the meeting that he had "no plans to transfer tax to another level of government" and noted municipalities are creatures of the province – not a federal responsibility.

McGuinty didn't buy the argument that funding of cities should be simply a provincial responsibility.

"The way I see it is that our cities and towns are centres of innovation and wealth creation and we need to do more together to lend direct support to them," he said.

"It's great to get Mayor McCallion publicly speaking to this important issue.

"If we're going to enjoy any success ... we need more mayors of small communities and large communities speaking out across the country and saying to the federal government, `You find yourself in a wonderful position, where you're running surpluses on a continual basis. Why can you not come to the table and lend direct support to Canadian municipalities?'"

McCallion told the Star after hearing what Harper said to McGuinty that she expects other mayors across the country to take up her crusade and take it to the people – especially if there is a federal election next year.

"The citizens have a choice," said McCallion, mayor since 1978 and one of Canada's most popular and influential civic leaders. "They can press the federal government or they pick up the tab on their property taxes. They can't sit back and do nothing."

The surtax will cost Mississauga homeowners an average of $50 a year.

McCallion said she's not surprised Harper and federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty aren't listening to cities given that the former Ontario Conservative government – of which Flaherty was a part – downloaded social housing, ambulance and other costs on municipalities.

"We got shafted. You think he's going to change his colours when he gets to Ottawa? We've got a fight on our hands," she said.

Flaherty was unfazed by the criticism.

"We're different orders of government and I know them both well. I've known Hazel for a long time (from) when I was in provincial politics," said Flaherty, who was Ontario finance minister under former premier Mike Harris.

"We believe in lowering taxes. We believe in being very careful on the spending side as well."

Flaherty noted that Ottawa is giving the provinces $33 billion in infrastructure over the next seven years, which will help municipalities.

"It's not a drop in the bucket," he said.

Beyond the impasse on municipal funding, Harper and McGuinty's "high-level" discussion centred on the impact of the soaring Canadian dollar on Ontario manufacturers.

"I made my pitch, I expressed my concerns once again about the effect the high dollar is having on our manufacturers and our exporters," he said.

"The Prime Minister, I can say, listened intently."

Harper did not meet reporters after his meeting with McGuinty nor after a speech to the Canadian Club at the Royal York Hotel, in which he said the fundamentals of the Canadian economy were sound, and that tens of thousands of new jobs were being created each month.

"It's worth noting that our economy has been showing tremendous resiliency against a range of economic changes," Harper said.

[Rico Rommheim]

stupid stupid stupid! How many canadians live in cities? 75-80%? What a jerk that Harper.

[vid]

What a jerk that Harper.

Yes!! He has really spoiled our pudding! Bad Harper! Bad!

This still isn't as absurd as the Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario giving $300,000 to Chatham. :rolleyes: But hey, at least it got something.

[Rico Rommheim]

Yes!! He has really spoiled our pudding! Bad Harper! Bad!



Our? This concerns people who live in cities, vid, not Thunder Bay...:rolleyes:

[Cambridgite]

stupid stupid stupid! How many canadians live in cities? 75-80%?

Didn't this rural-loving hick grow up in Etobicoke? He should show a little respect to the provincial 'creatures' who create his precious surpluses.

[shreddog]

He should show a little respect to the provincial 'creatures' who create his precious surpluses.
Actually, there is only one creature in Canada who can create those precious surpluses. It's called the taxpayer. You may not be familiar with this creature, but there are about 33 Million of them in Canada - and surprisingly, Harper did just show them a little respect all the while contributing 33 Billion to infrastructure across Canada.

But why let the truth get in the way of a good leftist rant.

[vid]

Our? This concerns people who live in cities, vid, not Thunder Bay...:rolleyes:

I forgot, the only cities are Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver! :rolleyes:

[Rico Rommheim]

I forgot, the only cities are Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver! :rolleyes:

Eeeeeeeeexactly!

[Greco Roman]

Alright. Here we go with the city vs. city regionalism bashing, woohoo !

:rolleyes:

[Rico Rommheim]

^ Hey only if you say so, so far there aint any animosity :rolleyes:

[HomeInMyShoes]

No regionalism here. Harper can shove my tax dollars up his ass. He can give to whichever region he wants after that.

[ScottFromCalgary]

This thread may just set the record for :rolleyes: smilies. That said, while I might like to see some federal money go to cities because I live in a city, I'm not confident that the idea makes a lot of sense. If the feds cut taxes to eliminate their surpluses, then provincial governments will have room to increase their own tax rates to pay for cities. This truly isn't a federal responsibility, there is no reason for the entire nation to cough up money that will surely be unequally distributed. McGuinty just doesn't want to take any shit over a tax hike.

[vid]

"McGuinty just doesn't want to take any shit over a tax hike."

That didn't stop him 3 years ago. :rolleyes: Cities don't want to raise taxes, either, but every year, they have to, because the upper levels of government keep piling up new responsibilities and refuse to give them more taxing power. There is no way they can handle those responsibilities. Even cities like Toronto, which has a GDP over 500 billion dollars, can't make ends meet, because of the upper levels of government!

Oh, ":rolleyes:"

[ScottFromCalgary]

"McGuinty just doesn't want to take any shit over a tax hike."

That didn't stop him 3 years ago. :rolleyes: Cities don't want to raise taxes, either, but every year, they have to, because the upper levels of government keep piling up new responsibilities and refuse to give them more taxing power. There is no way they can handle those responsibilities. Even cities like Toronto, which has a GDP over 500 billion dollars, can't make ends meet, because of the upper levels of government!

Oh, ":rolleyes:"

Toronto has gotten a raw deal by having services downloaded on them from other levels of government. Changes in responsibilites should be accompanied with appropriate funding levels. But has it been the feds piling more on them or the provincial government?

:rolleyes:

[HomeInMyShoes]

^Well, it might be that the feds piled more responsibilities on the provinces first who had to offload to the cities because the feds never gave the provinces any extra money to deal with the added responsibilities.

[Paper Boy]

"McGuinty just doesn't want to take any shit over a tax hike."

That didn't stop him 3 years ago. :rolleyes: Cities don't want to raise taxes, either, but every year, they have to, because the upper levels of government keep piling up new responsibilities and refuse to give them more taxing power. There is no way they can handle those responsibilities. Even cities like Toronto, which has a GDP over 500 billion dollars, can't make ends meet, because of the upper levels of government!

Oh, ":rolleyes:"

Sorry, your GDP statement is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off and unsubstantiated.

[vid]

Sorry, your GDP statement is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off and unsubstantiated.

But.. But... Toronto is the biggestest and most importantest city in Canada... :(




:rolleyes:

My post wasn't entirely serious. You know me. A Torontonian pissed me off and I'm taking it out on you by exaggerating Toronto's GDP.

[theman23]

Rico Rommheim is from Montreal. It says to the right of his name. Torontonians like Thunder Bay. Where else would we get our new subway cars from (that IS Thunder bay, right??)

[Boris2k7]

^Well, it might be that the feds piled more responsibilities on the provinces first who had to offload to the cities because the feds never gave the provinces any extra money to deal with the added responsibilities.

Well, they both dumped it on the cities at about the same time (mid-90's). Now I'm pretty pissed at Harper. Instead of coming up with real solutions to urban problems, like a National Transit Strategy (we are the only G8 Country without one) it is back to the same old pissing match over jurisdictions. It is a shame that the Constitution has never been updated to take into account that we are no longer the little bumpkin rural nation of 1867.

[vid]

It is a shame that the Constitution has never been updated to take into account that we are no longer the little bumpkin rural nation of 1867.

It's a shame that the provinces haven't had the initiative to do so. Urban MPs make up a considerable portion of Parliament, and if there is a referendum, it would certain pass - 80% of us live in cities! It is out of date. We finally brought it home. Let's update it.

Rico Rommheim is from Montreal. It says to the right of his name.

I know. That's why I left Montreal out. ;)

Torontonians like Thunder Bay.

You should have seen what they had to say about this city in the early 1900s! Of course, back then, they owned it. If only that sentiment still existed.

Where else would we get our new subway cars from (that IS Thunder bay, right??)

We built the GO Transit Cars, the street cars (Which, being old as they are and still running, shows it is a quality product.) and besides, do you really want a made-in-China transit system? At least the people building these are ONTARIANS paying ONTARIAN taxes.

[Paper Boy]

But.. But... Toronto is the biggestest and most importantest city in Canada... :(




:rolleyes:

My post wasn't entirely serious. You know me. A Torontonian pissed me off and I'm taking it out on you by exaggerating Toronto's GDP.

:previous: I knew that....touche......just dont want Toronto getting too much credit on this forum :cheers:

[shappy]

:previous: I knew that....touche......just dont want Toronto getting too much credit on this forum :cheers:

keep up the good work, son... we're counting on you.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Well, they both dumped it on the cities at about the same time (mid-90's). Now I'm pretty pissed at Harper. Instead of coming up with real solutions to urban problems, like a National Transit Strategy (we are the only G8 Country without one) it is back to the same old pissing match over jurisdictions. It is a shame that the Constitution has never been updated to take into account that we are no longer the little bumpkin rural nation of 1867.

Some parts are still remarkably bumpkin. :)

[LordMandeep]

well its strange, why does he not help cities...

rural people may get mad, but who the hell they are going to vote for anyway....

[Doug]

Beyond funding infrastructure that is of national importance (ex. ports, border crossings), the federal government should not transfer any money to municipalities. Transfers between levels of government blur accountability as one level of government collects taxes while another spends.

[flar]

Downloading was the name of the game back in the 90's. The Feds downloaded stuff to the provinces, then the provinces downloaded stuff to the municipalities. Everywhere in Ontario especially was slammed with downloading, for example tons of provincial roads became the responsibility of municipal governments. Schools and hospitals were hit hard. Municipalities were forcefully amalgamated, services were cut like crazy. Now the feds won't give anything back, despite their surpluses. They wouldn't have those surpluses if they hadn't passed the buck to lower levels of gov't.

[LordMandeep]

Beyond funding infrastructure that is of national importance (ex. ports, border crossings), the federal government should not transfer any money to municipalities.

the thing is that the federal govt has more money then every before and is in charge of less and less every year...

[Beatrix]

Are the Liberal still looking for an issue to defeat the government on?

I was considering voting Conservative in the next election, but after this, I highly doubt I will.

[kitchener-lrt]

Are the Liberal still looking for an issue to defeat the government on?

I was considering voting Conservative in the next election, but after this, I highly doubt I will.

We'll see what the Liberals will propose during the next election. The Liberals are now focusing in on Poverty, the Environment and the Economy/Infrustructure. I think the Grits will take down the government on exactly those issues, considering the Tories did nothing about them. Dion has a different way of being leader of a party. Call him weak, but he's the one making parliament work. I can see many mayors/premiers publicly supporting Dion, or discouraging Harper (Danny Williams).

I hope people will finally realize that tax cuts aren't the solution to all of our problems. We need to invest in our cities, not cut our own taxes just because we want a few hundred dollars each year.

[RWin]

I forgot, the only cities are Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver! :rolleyes:

And Dawson City. It's even got city in the name.

[CC420]

Downloading was the name of the game back in the 90's. The Feds downloaded stuff to the provinces, then the provinces downloaded stuff to the municipalities. Everywhere in Ontario especially was slammed with downloading, for example tons of provincial roads became the responsibility of municipal governments. Schools and hospitals were hit hard. Municipalities were forcefully amalgamated, services were cut like crazy. Now the feds won't give anything back, despite their surpluses. They wouldn't have those surpluses if they hadn't passed the buck to lower levels of gov't.

Well said. The federal government through the years has increased its power to tax while reducing its responsibility to govern. I myself support the idea of giving the local governments more power, but you have to give them the money as well. All of these Federal subsidies are a joke. It is bad economic policy to have a large government surplus since that surplus goes to rich bankers who organized the banking system to incur debt in the first place. I say stop the federal government's power to collect income tax and give it back to the provinces where it used to be. According to the BNA which is half of our constitution, the federal government is allowed to collect money in any form possible except for those powers given to the provinces. The BNA states the provinces can collect personal property tax. Since your income is your property (remember income tax didn't exist when the BNA was written), it should be illegal for the federal government to collect income tax. If you disagree with my legal definition, then listen to reason. Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a smaller provincial government deal with all income tax thus giving them and therefor the cities much, much more money to distribute all around? I'm sick of my tax dollars going towards the rich central banks while my cities infrastructure is crumbling.

[MolsonExport]

Where is Eddy_A when we need him? ;)

Note to Conservative party: Please stop those ads with Dion crying "Do you know how difficult it is to make priorities?!?" This negative campaigning starts becoming very tedious after awhile.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^Agreed. Yesterday I was thinking, did I miss the election call?

[ScottFromCalgary]

that surplus goes to rich bankers who organized the banking system to incur debt in the first place.

I'm not sure how you came up with this. Maybe you know something that I don't.

[flar]

Things seem to be gearing up for an election, now the Conservatives are having to deal with scandal (Mulroney airbus again). As much as I want to see corruption punished (and the Conservatives brought down), I'm quite sick of Canadian politics being dominated by scandals, and increasingly negative campaigning.

[MolsonExport]

Canadian politics is often characterized by hauntings.

Trudeau haunted every Prime Minister that succeeded him (even does now, from his grave).

Mulroney haunted Kim Campbell's brief tenure, and is now haunting Harper and his gang.

Chretien haunted Mr. Dithers.

Jacques Parizeau, however is the monster haunter. The PQ is so haunted, it is really quite scary. Seems as though whenever a PQ leader deviates from a hard-line philosophy, Parizeau says something that sends Quebec media into a real tizzy. Case in point, of course, is what happened during Landry's tenure (and subsequent election loss to Jean McCharest).

[waterloowarrior]

Downloading was the name of the game back in the 90's. The Feds downloaded stuff to the provinces, then the provinces downloaded stuff to the municipalities. Everywhere in Ontario especially was slammed with downloading, for example tons of provincial roads became the responsibility of municipal governments. Schools and hospitals were hit hard. Municipalities were forcefully amalgamated, services were cut like crazy. Now the feds won't give anything back, despite their surpluses. They wouldn't have those surpluses if they hadn't passed the buck to lower levels of gov't.

Which federal responsibilities were downloaded? IIRC, wasn't most of it funding cuts to programs/transfers (social services, healthcare, education) that were provincial responsibilities anyways?

[flar]

Which federal responsibilities were downloaded? IIRC, wasn't most of it funding cuts to programs/transfers (social services, healthcare, education) that were provincial responsibilities anyways?

Federal transfers to provinces for health and education were big ones, which forced the provinces to allocate more of their own limited funds for these things. Provinces were blamed for the health care crisis and rising university tuition (for example), but it was really due to Paul Martin trying to balance the federal budget. The feds don't really manage much directly, but they have the powers of taxation. The provinces run most things and depend on money from the federal government. So you're right, the feds didnt' download responsibility for managing programs, but they did download the costs.

[big W]

In other words the feds decided to cut back on spending in areas that are not their responsibility, which I think its a good thing as you have greater accountablility. By the way the lack of funding in cities can and should be put squarely on our provincial governments. It is their responsibility and if they do not fund them, we as taxpayers should hold them accountable. I have no problem with the feds not funding municipalities. It is up to the provincial goverment in each province to either give greater powers of taxation to their municipalities or give them greater transfers of money to pay for things. I am also writing this from a City that has just announced a potential 10.8% increase in taxes for the upcoming year do pay for continued expansion of infrastructure. In other words provinces if you need the money increase your sales taxes by the 1 or 2% that the feds no longer collect (if you need the cash) and pay for what you want or need.

At least this way if I have a problem with a lack of hospital beds in my city I can blame it on the Stelmach government and not have them pass the buck on the feds in Ottawa. "Big Bad Ottawa" is why we don't have these things will not fly.

[flar]

In other words the feds decided to cut back on spending in areas that are not their responsibility, which I think its a good thing as you have greater accountablility. By the way the lack of funding in cities can and should be put squarely on our provincial governments. It is their responsibility and if they do not fund them, we as taxpayers should hold them accountable. I have no problem with the feds not funding municipalities. It is up to the provincial goverment in each province to either give greater powers of taxation to their municipalities or give them greater transfers of money to pay for things. I am also writing this from a City that has just announced a potential 10.8% increase in taxes for the upcoming year do pay for continued expansion of infrastructure. In other words provinces if you need the money increase your sales taxes by the 1 or 2% that the feds no longer collect (if you need the cash) and pay for what you want or need.

At least this way if I have a problem with a lack of hospital beds in my city I can blame it on the Stelmach government and not have them pass the buck on the feds in Ottawa. "Big Bad Ottawa" is why we don't have these things will not fly.

Ultimately responsibility lies with whoever controls the funding. It's a zero sum game and the bottom line is that municipalities ended up with more responsibility and less money.

[wild wild west]

Beyond funding infrastructure that is of national importance (ex. ports, border crossings), the federal government should not transfer any money to municipalities. Transfers between levels of government blur accountability as one level of government collects taxes while another spends.

I agree. I see no advantage in the Federal government spearheading municipal infrastructure initiatives. Getting the Feds involved in municipal infrastructure makes about as much sense as having the Municipal governments involved in the deployment of the Canadian Armed Forces. What the Feds should do (and are doing) is cut federal taxes so that provincial and municipal governments can take up the tax room, and of course cities need the legislative powers to implement other means of fundraising.

Provincial and municipal governments don't like to be put in the position of having to raise taxes, but if a situation exists where the federal government is increasingly sticking to its constitutionally granted responsibilities while at the same time surrendering tax room, it seems quite obvious that in order to be better able to carry out their responsibilities they need to take up that tax room. For example, David Miller was asking for one percentage point of the GST to go to cities. Well, guess what just got reduced by 1% and is about to be reduced by a further percent. Could he not, with the new taxing powers under the City of Toronto Act, increase sales taxes within the City Limits by a percentage point? Conversely, if Premier McGuinty is committed to more funding for cities, why not raise the PST by a percentage point to coincide with the GST reduction and apply the revenue to Ontario's cities?

[sync]

For example, David Miller was asking for one percentage point of the GST to go to cities. Well, guess what just got reduced by 1% and is about to be reduced by a further percent. Could he not, with the new taxing powers under the City of Toronto Act, increase sales taxes within the City Limits by a percentage point? Conversely, if Premier McGuinty is committed to more funding for cities, why not raise the PST by a percentage point to coincide with the GST reduction and apply the revenue to Ontario's cities?

but this is politics.

what you're suggesting makes sense, ergo, it will never happen.