[WaterlooInvestor]

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[Cambridgite]

Has ANYTHING happened with this development? ANY news at all? It's been sitting at the bottom of the downtowns section for an awfully long time.

[rapid_business]

Did these sell off yet? (sorry, always have a vested interest)

[vid]

You're like a walking advertisement. :rolleyes:

And real renderings?

[Cambridgite]

You're like a walking advertisement. :rolleyes:

And real renderings?

What's wrong with advertising a potential condo development in your SSP:Local section? I don't see you lecturing the Toronto or Vancouver forumers about this. :rolleyes:

Don't be such a jealous hater. ;)

[vid]

Well, only two of those pictures actually needed to be there. He is wasting the internets! It's a series of tubes, not a truck you can dump stuff on!!

Seriously, though, where are the real renders?

[ScottFromCalgary]

The worst models that I have ever seen in a condo advertisement, and is it too hard to throw a fucking colour rendering in?

[vid]

I didn't even bother saying anything about the models. But yes, they are pretty odd looking.

[rapid_business]

Yeah, pretty amateur.

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[vid]

"even small things can be posted/discussed here"

They spelled its name with all miniscule letters.

To me, this implies inferiority. How does "icon" stack up to, say, "Limbrick Social Housing Co-Operative"? :shrug: LSHO has more majuscule letters than icon has letters at all!!

[jcollins]

I know there's been little to no discussion about these lately. I dont know where the project stands in terms of approval and what not. But I drove past the site today and got to thinking, will it be built just over top of the building that is there (the old howl at the moon I think) or on the corner lot where there is just a parking lot now?

[Cambridgite]

I know there's been little to no discussion about these lately. I dont know where the project stands in terms of approval and what not. But I drove past the site today and got to thinking, will it be built just over top of the building that is there (the old howl at the moon I think) or on the corner lot where there is just a parking lot now?

I think the old Howl at the Moon is being torn down and redeveloped along with the parking lot. If you look at the photos at the top of the thread, you'll see where the proposed building starts.

[jcollins]

I think the old Howl at the Moon is being torn down and redeveloped along with the parking lot. If you look at the photos at the top of the thread, you'll see where the proposed building starts.

Ya I saw those, but they almost look as if there are arch shaped windows at the bottom, just like the ones at howl at the moon. Maybe it's just me haha.

[kitchener-lrt]

I have to admit it. For some reason, this is my favourite proposal in Kitchener. I don't know why, but I just like it :).

[jcollins]

I like them a lot too. The only thing I dont like, is that from the drawings that are available so far, it looks like the building comes almost all the way to the road rather than sitting flush with the rest of the buildings already there.

I would expect that that'd be something that would be addressed

[rapid_business]

/\ I'm sure it would. I'd like to see it in colour to get a better perspective of it. (Not to mention a better representation of what is actually glass)

[jcollins]

Has there been any word on where this project is at?
It's been in discussion since last summer I thought

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[KitchenerBitcher]

I think this is almost the coolest thing planned for downtown Kitchener. Does anyone know if they're making any progress on it? I just hope they can sell enough units to make it a go.

[jcollins]

Im not sure where they're at. But if the selling of units at the 42 in uptown can predict anything, im thinking sales shouldnt be too big of an issue

[Cambridgite]

^ For all intents and purposes, uptown and downtown are different places and should be treated as separate markets. Nevertheless, it didn't take too long to sell Kaufman lofts, so I think you're right. I don't know what it is about this development or Arrow lofts, but it seems like nothing is happening at all.

[rapid_business]

Kaufman was also a lone ranger in the area. The next to go up will have an easier time. But yes, uptown and downtown = two different markets.

[kitchener-lrt]

Like Cambridgite mentioned, wtf's up with Arrow? It's been the same for about a year now.

[KitchenerBitcher]

I hope now that the warm weather is arrived, some progress will be made on Icon.

[KitchenerBitcher]

I e-mailed the Icon developer yesterday asking about when construction. It's probably foolish to expect a response as I specified that I am not interested in buying one, but just interested in the benefit that the development will bring to downtown.

[brian519]

I emailed them and got this response back from Jim Hallman:

things are kind of at a standstill as other projects have taken more of our time. We would anticipate another year until preselling and building begins.

[rapid_business]

A year until pre-sales, eh? wow....

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[kitchener-lrt]

If we all e-mail him, pretending to have an interest in purchasing a unit, he might think differently about waiting another year.

[KitchenerBitcher]

Crap! This sounds like it will be a GREAT project for the downtown. It's in a great location and I think it could probably have the same success as the 42, as far as unit sales. Mr. Hallman would be making a mistake by delaying the project, as the condominium is pretty hot right now.

[Cambridgite]

If we all e-mail him, pretending to have an interest in purchasing a unit, he might think differently about waiting another year.

That's a little dishonest, don't ya think?

[rapid_business]

If we all e-mail him, pretending to have an interest in purchasing a unit, he might think differently about waiting another year.

I doubt it. I assume he's waiting for the right market, and the price (profit margin) to get to a level he is more comfortable with. (AKA, more expensive downtown condo market) I would also think the number of resale units in Kaufman has him worried about initial competing interests, as does the potential future of projects like Centre Block, etc.

It's a calculated risk that developers measure, but I don't think he fully understands the potential demand for said product in the region.

[kitchener-lrt]

That's a little dishonest, don't ya think?

Just a tad :P.

[WaterlooInvestor]

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[Ktown4ever]

Now that Andrin has the green light to develop Kitchener's so called 'Centre Block' i suspect the developers of the ICONS will be keen to start moving on their project and capitalize on the excitment and promise of downtown Ktchener. It would be a good strategy to come out of the gate ahead of Andrin, or at least in and around the same time as they start pre selling their first phase of condos. Also with the transformation of the Lang Tannery coming, the time is now!

[KitchenerBitcher]

I agree with you Ktown4ever! Now is the time Icon should be trying to get approval and presell units. They would also appeal to the same type of buyer that would buy a condo in the Centre Block development. I also just want Icon to start because I think it looks like another high quality development, and with the Kaufman lofts on that corner and that nice little green space, it would create a nice street scene coming down King Street.

[jcollins]

The one thing I'd be worried about if they both came on the market at the same time would be that there'd be too much competition and that could hurt their ability to reach the minimum number of sales to start construction.
Is downtown kitchener ready for this?
Or am I being dumb by even mentioning the thought of "too much competition"?

[rapid_business]

More then 1 is never a bad thing...

[Ktown4ever]

I believe competition will help both developments. When consumers have choice, everyone wins.

[Cambridgite]

I don't think it will be too much competition so long as Arrow Lofts doesn't come onto the market at the exact same time. I know it's easy to forget that project is going on, with the snail's pace it's moving at.

[jcollins]

I totally agree with both of you, that competition helps, better prices, etc.

The only thing that concerns me, is if there are enough people right now to fill them both, maybe the better prices would fuel people making the move

[Ktown4ever]

Condominiums are very hot right now across the region and the country, and will only be getting more popular.

The fact that both these developments will be offering underground/covered parking will attract a whole new audience who did not even consider the Kaufman Lofts becuase of the surface parking.

[notmyfriends]

So, ummm, did this get built yet?

[rapid_business]

Negative.

[notmyfriends]

Really? I expected it would be done shortly after the Arrow Lofts were finished.

[Cambridgite]

Really? I expected it would be done shortly after the Arrow Lofts were finished.

The Arrow Lofts are nowhere near finished. In fact, construction stalled months ago and we're all trying to figure out what's going on with the thing.

[notmyfriends]

At least I think I'm funny.

[Cambridgite]

At least I think I'm funny.

Oh....lol

It's hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic on the internet.

[BusyBerliner]

The Arrow Lofts are nowhere near finished. In fact, construction stalled months ago and we're all trying to figure out what's going on with the thing.


I heard very recently that the stall was largely due to contamination issues and that they should be starting up again shortly... I'll believe it when I see it though.

[KitchenerBitcher]

I heard very recently that the stall was largely due to contamination issues and that they should be starting up again shortly... I'll believe it when I see it though.

I heard the same thing from a friend down at city hall. I thought it should have been dealt with by now though. I also heard that the design was possibly changing for the project, and that new renderings were being made. That was purely heresay though. Though don't get excited about Icon Condiminiums, we are kind of getting off topic with Arrow here. I have heard nothing about Icon Lofts since they put up that sign and had an ad in the paper like once. That must have been over a year ago.

[Ktown4ever]

Terry Pender
RECORD STAFF

KITCHENER

The City of Kitchener is selling Centre Block land too cheaply compared to the recent sale of another downtown property, two critics of the city deal say.

But Kitchener officials defend the price, saying the two property sales are "an apples-and-oranges comparison."

Last June, city councillors agreed to sell 2.64 acres on Centre Block to Andrin Ltd. for $3.1 million -- or about $1.2 million an acre. The land is for a $90-million redevelopment, including 385 condos, an underground parking garage, four buildings and a parkette.

In November, the Cora Group sold 3.3 acres on the block bounded by Duke, Frederick, Weber and Scott streets for $10.7 million -- or about $3.24 million an acre -- to the Ontario government to build a new provincial courthouse.

Retired banker Hans Pottkamper, a former chair of the Centre Block steering committee, thinks the Cora deal -- for land only 2.5 blocks away from Centre Block -- shows the city is getting shortchanged.

The two locations "are similar in accessibility and development potential, so the value per square foot should be about the same," said Pottkamper, who does consulting work for Tony Dibattista, owner of several properties in the core.

Centre Block is bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets.

Jack Redmond, a retired developer, surveyor and real estate broker, agrees with Pottkamper. He said the city should stop negotiations on a development agreement with Andrin until the two parties agree on a higher price.

"I think, basically, the Cora sale reflects the true market value," Redmond said.

Kitchener Mayor Carl Zehr defends the price the city is getting for the land on Centre Block. Each real-estate deal is based on the circumstances around that deal, Zehr said in an interview.

"Just making a strict dollar-for-dollar, acre-for-acre comparison without knowing the details is not a reasonable approach," he said.

Negotiations between the city and Andrin for the Centre Block development won't be stopped in light of the complaints.

"I am satisfied the appraisal process that we had was valid," Zehr said.

Zehr is supported by Rod Regier, the city's director of economic investment.

"It's kind of an apples-and-oranges comparison," Regier said of the two downtown land sales.

The price paid by the province reflects the cost of relocating existing businesses on the block, he said.

"That's quite an expensive proposition to take fully occupied buildings and shut them down," Regier said.

In fact, the Ontario Realty Corp., which handles land deals for the province, had to help only one organization relocate.

The Kitchener Downtown Community Health Centre will move into the Tannery District later this year.

Julia Sakas of Ontario Realty said the price for the courthouse land was reached after each party got independent appraisals. The realty corporation and Cora then negotiated a price in between the two appraisals, taking into account similar transactions.

In deciding on a price for the Centre Block land, two appraisals were done -- one by the city and one by Andrin. A third-party review was also done by a York University business professor, Regier said in an email.

City officials and Andrin ultimately agreed to have an independent expert estimate the residual value of the land -- a method of analysis that takes into account the cost of constructing the buildings that will eventually occupy the site.

The end result -- the city proposes to sell downtown land for $1.2 million per acre, while a short distance away, the Cora Group sold downtown land for $3.24 million per acre.

"Without the valuation for the land from the province, I can't say what the explanation for the difference is," Regier said in the email.

Regier said the city remains confident in the process used to determine the price for the Centre Block parcel.

The city paid out about $12.5 million -- which includes land costs, legal fees, buying out businesses and interest payments on the debt -- to assemble the property.

The city and Andrin were to have an agreement by Dec. 10 for the redevelopment of Centre Block, but things have been delayed.

The city doesn't know when the agreement will be ready.

"We are chugging away at it," Regier said of the negotiations. "We are in the thick of dotting i's and crossing t's. Andrin is still very determined to move forward with it, even considering the market conditions."

Pottkamper now works for Dibattista, who partnered with developer Jim Hallman to pay more than $2 million for some properties on King Street West, between Francis and Water streets-- once known as the Block that Rocked.

Pottkamper, a former chair of the city's economic development advisory committee, said the partnership explored the idea of building condos on the site. The project is now on the back burner after the city decided to pursue the development agreement with Andrin.

Pottkamper said construction of condos can't be justified on that stretch of King Street when Andrin proposes to build hundreds of condos on the Centre Block land.

[rapid_business]

In due time. The problem is, they have speculation without having product on the market to measure it by. The last condos in the area to sell were the Kaufman Lofts starting several years back now. Good product, marketed at a good price point and layout, sells. I have no reason to believe the demand isn't there in KW. What isn't there is the supply.

[metropolis]

In due time. The problem is, they have speculation without having product on the market to measure it by. The last condos in the area to sell were the Kaufman Lofts starting several years back now. Good product, marketed at a good price point and layout, sells. I have no reason to believe the demand isn't there in KW. What isn't there is the supply.

Agreed. The Toronto market continues to prove this as many new well priced condo projects sell out like they did a year ago.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090116.reBelford0116/REStory/RealEstate/home

[Ktown4ever]

And in the meantime the former Sammy's Gararage building sits there rotting away, and the retail storefronts are either half empty, or tenanted by really crappy stores.

The 'Block that Rocks' is more like: The Block that Rots.

[Ktown4ever]

Work has been done in the last few weeks on the outside of the old Sammy's Garage. Amost looks like a restaurant or pub might be going in there---but progress has been slow.

[kitchener-lrt]

Is the development still going to go through?

[jcollins]

Is the development still going to go through?

I wouldn't hold your breath. I have a feeling we won't see any residential developments start until Centre Block gets going. I think that's going to be a real gauge of the market for some of these developments.

[bauer123]

Ya the company said awhile ago that since Center Block was going ahead they didn't think there would be enough demand.

Like Jcollins said if Center Block sells real good they would probably go though with it.

On a side note I would think they would want to build Center Block sooner then later due to Barrel Yards starting at some point. Although they are both delayed projects I think they are both targeting the same price point.

The lack of sales at 144 Park isn't helping anything. I know 144 Park is more high end but still.

[jcollins]

Ya the company said awhile ago that since Center Block was going ahead they didn't think there would be enough demand.

Like Jcollins said if Center Block sells real good they would probably go though with it.

On a side note I would think they would want to build Center Block sooner then later due to Barrel Yards starting at some point. Although they are both delayed projects I think they are both targeting the same price point.

The lack of sales at 144 Park isn't helping anything. I know 144 Park is more high end but still.

Do you think Barrel Yards will actually get going any time soon? The residential part at least?

I think the phase numbers for that project are now meaningless. The hotel was supposed to be part of phase two, that's being started in the spring. The residential part that is phase one isnt happening before the hotel obviously.

[bauer123]

Ya good point... Who knows with that project. They might start the Apartment phase before the condo phase...

[jcollins]

Ya good point... Who knows with that project. They might start the Apartment phase before the condo phase...

Its really hard to say. By doing the condos first they would have money up front from buyers, but doing the rentals would provide steady money coming in, rather than all up front, but it does not provide money to get going before construction.