[raisethehammer]

exactly my point fastcars....it's something to be dealt with in the medium term. In fact, it's something that will be dealt with on it's own as the downtown revitalizes. They'll move somewhere else and use that space more wisely.
Earlier someone said it needs to be dealt with and soon...I just don't agree. It will be dealt with in due time.

[RePinion]

^ I did say at one point that Delta had to be gotten rid of ASAP but I wasn't really serious ...

It is far from being the most desirable occupant for that building but it is better than abandonment.

[oldcoote]

Bingo Halls and Dollar Stores should be done away with.

Sorry if it offends anyone, but I feel strongly about this.

[Millstone]

Bingo Halls and Dollar Stores should be done away with.

Sorry if it offends anyone, but I feel strongly about this.
Give me your rationale.

[Millstone]

words

The Smoke-Free Ontario Act ("SFOA") did a lot of damage when it came out. Everybody lost money. One year prior to the SFOA, halls (and bars, etc.) were required to spend $$$ to put up barriers between smoking and non-smoking sections, only to tear them back down because they were needless after the SFOA. Some places just left them up. What we're left with now is a congregation of people smoking outside the entrances to the buildings -- and technically even that's illegal!

Delta Hamilton may not be in a good spot for downtown revitalization (unless you can tack something on the roof), but it's decent inside as far as bingo goes, and isn't abandoned. If the building can be bought for something better, well then, so be it.

[oldcoote]

Give me your rationale.

They attract the wrong clientele if you're serious about neighbourhood revitilization.

And dollar stores in particular are like a bad virus. They tend to split and multiply in short order.

[Millstone]

They attract the wrong clientele if you're serious about neighbourhood revitilization.

And dollar stores in particular are like a bad virus. They tend to split and multiply in short order.

What is the "wrong clientele"? And what is wrong with a business expanding?

[RePinion]

I agree that it is difficult to make any argument in favour of doing away with bingo halls and dollar stores unless it includes replacing them with more desirable businesses.

A downtown full of bingo halls and junk shops is certainly depressing, but so is a downtown where every storefront is boarded up and every building vacant. Rather some commerce than no commerce at all.

That being said, I personally consider bingo halls and junk shops to be only slightly higher on the desirability ladder than strip clubs and sex shops. I truly hope Delta is gone from the downtown within the next 5 years, replaced by something better. Its presence is seriously detrimental for the image of the downtown, and as others have pointed out (and as a cursory drive past the building can confirm) it has been a poor citizen in terms of maintaining its building and contributing to the aesthetic of the Gore.

[RePinion]

^ Perhaps "wrong clientele" means senior citizens. A lot of people are concerned to make downtown a place for "young professionals" and a disproportionate number of seniors can only detract from this goal.

I certainly would hope for a revitalized downtown which would welcome both seniors, young professionals, and anyone in between.

That being said, I think a more upscale, gentrified downtown is desirable for the city in general, and that may unfortunately make the area less inclusive to certain segments of society. Just a fact of urban living ...

[RePinion]

As for dollar stores and their proliferation, an argument can be made for a chain reaction in terms of the erosion of property values and the fleeing of quality retail

[raisethehammer]

I'm a little confused.
I understand the angst towards dollar stores, pawn shops, strip clubs, sex shops and boarded-up buildings. But 1 single bingo hall??? many of you are taking an 's' onto the end of hall which makes it sound like there are several bingo halls downtown. There's 1. The cabs get great business because of it. Many of the old folks come and go from JS and also pump serious coin into nearby Hortons. lol.
I understand and personally desire to see a younger, hipper crowd downtown but not at the expense of all others. A mixture should be the goal.

[RePinion]

I personally was speaking in general about bingo halls ... hence the plural.

[oldcoote]

What is the "wrong clientele"?
Cheap people who stand around smoking all day is a mark of death for retail, imo.
And what is wrong with a business expanding?
Not so much expanding. More like duplicating. Look at Jackson Square. Once a dollar store is established, 6 more just like it pop up.

[RePinion]

Again, I think the major issue with Delta is its very prominent location the core.

[raisethehammer]

I'm only aware of one dollar store in JS. Dollarama. It was the first one to ever locate in the mall.

[matt602]

There is another one by the Sheraton in JS.

[oldcoote]

Again, I think the major issue with Delta is its very prominent location the core.

Yes, I think you're right. And the fact it is streetfront retail.

[oldcoote]

There is another one by the Sheraton in JS.

And another one in the basement of the City Centre.

Not to mention Liquidation World, etc.

[RePinion]

Hart, too, is almost like a big dollar store ... a little less classy than traditional low-end department stores like Zellers, Kresges, etc.

[RePinion]

Yes, I think you're right. And the fact it is streetfront retail.

Yeah, if Delta were upstairs somewhere downtown and not so visible from street level, its presence would be much less offensive ...

[Millstone]

Hart, too, is almost like a big dollar store ... a little less classy than traditional low-end department stores like Zellers, Kresges, etc.
Everything in City Centre is pretty second-rate. It really needs to be put out of its misery.

Cheap people who stand around smoking all day is a mark of death for retail, imo.Er, I don't think there are a lot of crack-smoking grannies playing bingo. I've seen a lot of odd people playing bingo, but not too many crackheads. :) There is always a lot of people outside that building at night though, with really dim lighting. Hughson and King William is not a very inviting place at night.

[Millstone]

^ Perhaps "wrong clientele" means senior citizens. A lot of people are concerned to make downtown a place for "young professionals" and a disproportionate number of seniors can only detract from this goal.



You're right on that point, however it may be offset by:

- It contributes to the 'something' happening downtown
- Puts more people downtown, especially at night
- Cabs get business
- Creates jobs
- Generates revenue for charities

If I had any say, I would do something with the exterior. But of course that costs money...

[raisethehammer]

Hart is fine to me....just like Walmart, Zellers etc....
I'll have to pay attention next time I'm in JS. I've never seen another dollar store by Sheraton.
JS and City Centre are two separate malls...City Centre friggin sucks...no doubt about it. It needs to have some serious work done on it, starting with building a 40+ storey tower at York and James with a couple street-facing cafes/shops. It would add to the density downtown as well as remove some of the inside floor space of the mall. Less floor space means less vacancy! Imagine a 40+ storey condo tower built at the same angle as the corner of York and James...very cool and sharp.

[HAMRetrofit]

^ excellent idea for a project

[Millstone]

Imagine a 40+ storey condo tower built at the same angle as the corner of York and James...very cool and sharp.

I'm imagining my property value soaring already! Keep talking! :)

[RePinion]

Hart is fine to me....just like Walmart, Zellers etc....

C'mon ... Hart is a hallmark of failing cities in Quebec and the Maritimes. When your premier downtown retail establishment is a Hart, you know your city's in trouble - not even good enough for Walmart or Zellers, let alone Sears or the Bay.

It's a terrible symbol, almost as bad as a bingo hall, and Hamilton can do better.

[HAMRetrofit]

Its a symbol of nothing as the Hamilton retail market strengthens it will be gone.

[RePinion]

It needs to have some serious work done on it, starting with building a 40+ storey tower at York and James with a couple street-facing cafes/shops. It would add to the density downtown as well as remove some of the inside floor space of the mall. Less floor space means less vacancy! Imagine a 40+ storey condo tower built at the same angle as the corner of York and James...very cool and sharp.

I'm afraid this is unrealistic. I'd sooner start filling in our overabundance of parking lots which give such a terrible gap tooth image to our downtown and do more to detract from the density than the City Centre, which at least has shown that it can function somewhat productively as an office location.

[RePinion]

Its a symbol of nothing as the Hamilton retail market strengthens it will be gone.

A symbol of nothing? I hardly think. It is a symbol of how pathetically weak the downtown retail market is, and the degree to which the downtown has been forsaken by people with disposible income.

That's not to say that Hart won't eventually be replaced with something better. But it's existence certainly isn't anomalous or devoid of meaning.

[Millstone]

I'm afraid this is unrealistic. I'd sooner start filling in our overabundance of parking lots which give such a terrible gap tooth image to our downtown and do more to detract from the density than the City Centre, which at least has shown that it can function somewhat productively as an office location.

Doing something with the parking block of Hughson/Wilson/John/Rebecca is a good start!

[raisethehammer]

Doing something with the parking block of Hughson/Wilson/John/Rebecca is a good start!

heck yea!! We could build a city within the city back there!

[DC83]

I actually like the Hamilton City Centre. I think it's got great bones and amazing potential to be as successful as the Toronto Eaton Centre.

If I ran the whole show (and I totally know it's a big, big dream), I would tear down Jackson Square and create an actual street-level public Square (with trees, and ice rinks, and water features, and little cafe stalls). Then put all the 'big name' retail into HCC opening up the stores to James St. I would then offer grants & tax breaks for those smaller or indy businesses to locate in the empty storefronts along James and offer incentives to the property owners to redevelop their bldgs to accomodate these businesses.

HCC would need a reno, no doubt. And I think the 3rd level should stay as offices.

I think this would create a buzz about Downtown retail and that the city is seriously committed to helping retail and seeing it succeed. This (along with the already growing downtown population) would see retail spill out from the HCC onto King St & James St and who knows from there!

Even if the Core doesn't land The Bay or anything that major, I still know we can land some great stores like Winners, SportsChek, or Inidgo/Chapters.

Oh ya, and once JS is gone, I'd like to see a movie theater complex development such as John/Richmond in TO in the Beasley Parking Lots (Wilson/John/Rebecca/Catherine area).

[RePinion]

A Winners or Indigo are both reasonable prospects for the downtown. A Winners however doesn't tend to contribute much in terms of anchoring for other retail. An Indigo very much does. Look at the Indigo at the Eaton Centre in Toronto, or the Manulife Centre. These stores are destinations and meeting places in themselves, and the customers often filter out into the malls after browsing/relaxing in the Indigo. Further, an Indigo would provide a solid upper-middle image for the downtown, which I believe it is sorely in need of. If we were to secure an Indigo for downtown - JS or in HCC - that would be a true turning point for Hamilton.

[fastcarsfreedom]

RTH--back when the Hamilton Eaton Centre was built, Cadillac Fairview was very much musing about high-rise development--either at the clock tower corner--or across the street on the T.M. Spratt site. Of course retail went in the tank with the rest of the economy in the 1990s, and with Commerce Place II just online, the demand for Class A space downtown was too soft to proceed.

RePinion--in one sense you are right--Hart represents weakness in the downtown retail market. However, it is fair to balance this out by saying that at the time of it's second (and final) trip to bankruptcy court, Eaton's internal sales figures showed that it's downtown location was profitable, and very much "middle of the pack" in terms of raw sales figures among the 75 or so stores that were left operating in 1998. Eaton's of course drove a considerable amount of traffic into the core--and into the HEC--and it's closure had a huge impact on the downtown retail market. Once it once gone--it was gone--and no one was willing to come along and take the risk of trying to recapture what market was there prior.

DC83, although I disagree with your plan to demolish JS (although you could convince me that some heavy alterations and selective demolition are in order)--you may want to check out the current redevelopment of downtown Salt Lake City. The LDS church's real estate division has hooked up with mall developer Taubman Centers to tear out two aging 1970s era malls--Crossroads Plaza and ZCMI Center along with an existing Macy's store to build an open-air combination retail/commercial/entertainment/residential complex to the tune of $1 Billion US. Along with a new Macy's they've also signed up Nordstrom and are working on a third anchor--if you read up on it it sounds like an attractive and innovate reworking of a downtown 'mall'.

[BCTed]

Hart is fine to me....just like Walmart, Zellers etc....

I guess you and I are destined to never agree. I do not particularly like Hart, but I do like the Hamilton City Centre. Too bad it is almost empty and the stores that it does have are mostly crap.

[ihateittoo]

not sure how many will agree, but i think the HCC food court is one of the best places to get lunch in downtown. Ma and Pa type shops all types of food: Mexican, Persian, Caribbean, Chinese, Italian and Greek and a Breakfest/diner type joint.

I agree that Hart is a neutral addition to downtown. It's better than empty space of course but in combination with liquidation world and the discount electronics shops it tells the tale of the mall and downtown retail in general.

[chris k]

I beleive that its not the shops downtown that make it look as a weak retail market but the lack of shops.
Having a hart imo doesnt prove to me that the downtown market is weak, but the absence of larger chains that generally locate in downtowns prove that the market is weak.
I dont see a reason why cant have a hart aswell as high class shops downtown?
There is plenty of vacant space and space that can be expanded to accomodate all these shops.
Once there is no vancant space and a bit of every type of shop, thats when i will think the retail market downtown is strong again.

[HAMRetrofit]

Lets get this straight, demand is strong but supply is dismal. The owners/leasers of these properties are doing a piss poor job of marketing their businesses. As usual, the citizens have to pay the price with sub par retail amenities.

[RePinion]

I beleive that its not the shops downtown that make it look as a weak retail market but the lack of shops.
Having a hart imo doesnt prove to me that the downtown market is weak, but the absence of larger chains that generally locate in downtowns prove that the market is weak.
I dont see a reason why cant have a hart aswell as high class shops downtown?
There is plenty of vacant space and space that can be expanded to accomodate all these shops.
Once there is no vancant space and a bit of every type of shop, thats when i will think the retail market downtown is strong again.

Of course you're right in some regard. Complete absence of shops certainly is a stronger indication of weakness than the presence of low end shops like Hart, or dollar stores, or what have you ... The problem with a place like Hart is that it operates on a very low overhead model and will only set up a shop where the property values are at rock bottom. That is why it is, indisputably, an indicator of a weak retail market. If the retail market were stronger, property values would be higher and Hart would look elsewhere for suitable real estate.

I tend to agree that its presence is better than complete absence. I only worry that its might send the wrong signal to fickle developers who might otherwise think about investing in the downtown - i.e. it tells them that our downtown is an exclusively low income area. But would an empty HCC send a better signal? Probably not.

[RePinion]

I really question a lot of the assumptions on here about the current strength of the downtown retail market. I think there is some demand now for improved retail options, but there probably won't be sufficient demand to induce developers to act until there are more people living in the core with considerable disposible income.

Let's face it - consumer dynamics have changed over the last 20 years and we just can't expect people to travel from all corners of the city to shop downtown as they once did. People from Ancaster will probably never bother to make the trek to the core unless there is a true retail destination which will draw them. The downtown will need to support its retail facilities through local resident spending before such destination stores are likely to open.

[oldcoote]

Of course you're right in some regard. Complete absence of shops certainly is a stronger indication of weakness than the presence of low end shops like Hart, or dollar stores, or what have you ... The problem with a place like Hart is that it operates on a very low overhead model and will only set up a shop where the property values are at rock bottom. That is why it is, indisputably, an indicator of a weak retail market. If the retail market were stronger, property values would be higher and Hart would look elsewhere for suitable real estate.

I tend to agree that its presence is better than complete absence. I only worry that its might send the wrong signal to fickle developers who might otherwise think about investing in the downtown - i.e. it tells them that our downtown is an exclusively low income area. But would an empty HCC send a better signal? Probably not.

When Eaton's left, the major anchor retail was gone.

What York should have done was rolled out the red carpet for another major upscale retailer, helped them build to suit, favourable rent etc.

The worst thing they could have done is the path they followed. When Liquidation World becomes your anchor tenant, it sets the standard.

In this case, an empty store would have been better.

[RePinion]

^ You might just be right ...

[fastcarsfreedom]

Important to remember that things got extraordinarily complicated not only with Eaton's departure--but also with a number of ownership changes of the complex in short order...which didn't help the leasing/releasing situation. Cadillac Fairview brought a significant number of top-line tenants to the complex when it was initially developed--few of the originals, if any--remain.
(Is Fairweather still there--if so, they may be the prize winner).

[thistleclub]

Important to remember that things got extraordinarily complicated not only with Eaton's departure--but also with a number of ownership changes of the complex in short order...which didn't help the leasing/releasing situation. Cadillac Fairview brought a significant number of top-line tenants to the complex when it was initially developed--few of the originals, if any--remain.
(Is Fairweather still there--if so, they may be the prize winner).

Here again, I think that you see the influence that property owners and developers can have on perception of demand. In the case of downtown Hamilton, I think that the softness and mediocrity that some people talk about resides in mall management rather than the retail ecosystem of the core.

As far as City Centre goes, the departure of Cadillac Fairview was as much of a blow as the loss of Eatons. Whatever your stand on malls, you'll probably concede that CF has a successful track record when it comes to operating shopping centres, possibly the best in Canada. The corporation owns own dozens of shopping centres across Canada and have big stakes in dozens more in Canada and the US, which is why you'll find them listed on the NYSE. CF invests millions of dollars in their properties on a regular basis in order to stay competitive and and build them as components of a brand. CF goes after awards an recognition – its RBC Centre was the first major office tower in Canada built to LEED Gold NC Standard – and seeks recognition as a great landlord. It promotes synergy among its holdings with the shop! card, a universal gift card usable in CF properties across the country. They have websites for their shopping centres. Not for nothing is Cadillac Fairview known as a retail developer.

Fercan Development Inc., the current owner of Hamilton City Centre, is another story. Google the company's name and you'll get a sense of the complexity of the mall's PR dilemma. (One description of the company's expertise (http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_l0wd2l) is particularly disconcerting.)
Yet amazingly, Fercan is still bullish on the potential of downtown. Downtown Windsor, that is (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3374652&postcount=748). Yale (http://yalecanada.com/) has a more favourable corporate profile on the web than Fercan, but Jackson Square looks like it could be Yale's only shopping centre holding among a passel of office towers and industrial condos. For both City Centre and Jackson Square, substantial and visible investment from the property owners -- a streetfront facelift, for example -- might inspire major retailers to look at the facilities in a new light. What are the odds on that level of heroism?

[thistleclub]

In case the above seems like rosy or blinkered as far as Cadillac Fairview goes, I should add that CF's publicly traded status is probably not without consequence -- stockholder ROI is likely a factor in their hold-or-fold decisionmaking regarding retail properties.

[RePinion]

^ Actually Cadillac Fairview is not publicly traded but rather a wholly owned subsidiary of the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Board, which, I believe, has held a controlling stake in CF from as far back as 1995. Stockholder ROI is very much a factor in their hold-or-fold decisionmaking regarding both office and retail properties. They can basically be thought of as the commercial real estate arm of the OTPP, and no doubt their decision to back out of a property like the Hamilton Eaton Centre was motivated by a desire to preserve value for their parent. Institutional investors OTPP tend to be very conservative ...

[Goldfinger]

Correct, CF is indeed controlled by the OTPP much like Oxford is controlled by OMERS. The institutional Pension funds are a VERY conservative group of investors. They must be more careful than the private equity syndicate due to the fact that they are mandated to produce minimum returns for members.

CF could work downtown, but I think they would need to buy both complexes. They could pick them up cheap and sink what they should have spent into capital improvements.

The only problem here is that I have never seen any studies or reports on traffic numbers, sales, etc. for the malls. It's difficult to speculate what came first, the drop in people going to the core or the stores leaving.

[Goldfinger]

Fercan Development Inc., the current owner of Hamilton City Centre, is another story. Google the company's name and you'll get a sense of the complexity of the mall's PR dilemma. (One description of the company's expertise (http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_l0wd2l) is particularly disconcerting.)
Yet amazingly, Fercan is still bullish on the potential of downtown. Downtown Windsor, that is (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3374652&postcount=748). Yale (http://yalecanada.com/) has a more favourable corporate profile on the web than Fercan, but Jackson Square looks like it could be Yale's only shopping centre holding among a passel of office towers and industrial condos. For both City Centre and Jackson Square, substantial and visible investment from the property owners -- a streetfront facelift, for example -- might inspire major retailers to look at the facilities in a new light. What are the odds on that level of heroism?

Fercan is probably the biggest bottom feeder in the real estate industry. They picked up the City Centre for nothing more than goodwill, $3.75M in 2000 that cost $70M just 10 years earlier. At that price he is probably making a killing on the City lease alone. Windsor is in such terrible shape right now, bargains are everywhere, and that's what they want.

They wont bother with the big name retail because it's easier to keep what they have and not spend a dime on the place.

[RePinion]

Fercan is probably the biggest bottom feeder in the real estate industry. They picked up the City Centre for nothing more than goodwill, $3.75M in 2000 that cost $70M just 10 years earlier. At that price he is probably making a killing on the City lease alone. Windsor is in such terrible shape right now, bargains are everywhere, and that's what they want.

They wont bother with the big name retail because it's easier to keep what they have and not spend a dime on the place.

This may indeed be the biggest obstacle to downtown renewal. Not poor planning. Not inefficient government and bureaucracy. The fact that the downtown is almost wholly in the hands of bottom-feeding, do-nothing "developers" and speculators who scored such ridiculous bargains in the decade past that they have no real incentive to risk capital on improvements.

[RePinion]

$3.75m is a joke! I have colleagues in Toronto who've purchased single family houses for considerably more.

[thistleclub]

RePinion/Goldfinger: I'm living in the past, obviously. Hadn't realized OTPP had locked up CF, but yes, as investors they're quite conservative. Agreed that CF'd need both malls to make it worthwhile, and even then, it's an open question as to whether they'd hang onto it. As far as Fercan/Yale goes, the lack of investment in the properties is ominous, at least compared to the millions being pumped into Centre Mall, Lime Ridge, Mapleview, Eastgate (even Mountain Plaza Mall), but at least it's no threat to downtown's independent retailers.

[RePinion]

RePinion/Goldfinger: I'm living in the past, obviously. Hadn't realized OTPP had locked up CF, but yes, as investors they're quite conservative. Agreed that CF'd need both malls to make it worthwhile, and even then, it's an open question as to whether they'd hang onto it. As far as Fercan/Yale goes, the lack of investment in the properties is ominous, at least compared to the millions being pumped into Centre Mall, Lime Ridge, Mapleview, Eastgate (even Mountain Plaza Mall), but at least it's no threat to downtown's independent retailers.

Quite right. The longer these two hollow giants continue to sleep, the longer the incubation period for new independent retail in the core will continue.

Many cities are able to support quality independent retail vastly superior to chain retail both in terms of product offering and service. I do hope Hamilton will evolve these sorts of operations. The potential certainly seems to be forming at a steady pace.

[HAMRetrofit]

I know people are up in arms about these malls and are pipe dreaming about them coming back in a major way. I think now would be the best time to demolish them (at least the small retail and interior gallery portions). Most malls that go down usually are not resurrected unless they are heavily reinvested in. It is not because the market for retail is not there. It is because the owners of them failed to change with the times and lost tenants over the years, perception of vacancy lingers for a long time. In a mall this is difficult to overcome. Either convert them to other uses or eliminate them. Perhaps keep the large retail spaces to attract anchor tenants. They are creating excessive and unnecessary retail space and driving up vacancy figures for the entire downtown.

Are there any examples of failed malls that have successfully been resurrected?

[RePinion]

I presently incline towards the idea of demolishing both the malls, perhaps leaving whatever useful portions which might be salvaged intact.

US cities like New Haven have seen positive results after demolishing centrally located malls in formerly depressed downtowns.

I suppose we should wait until serious developers are clamoring to use the land for other purposes, though. There are just too many gaps in the downtown cityscape at present.

[flar]

I wouldn't necessarily miss the malls if they were demolished, but Jackson Sq. at least is not a typical dead mall: every day its halls are packed. So I think there's hope. City Centre is another story in that regard. Downtown malls have died in many Ontario cities and I don't know of any that were successfully resurrected as retail centres. Old Quebec Street in Guelph has come closest, but is far from an unqualified success. All the other dead downtown malls have little foot traffic.

Interestingly, Jackson Square already has the features that were not added to some other dead malls until after they had died: Galleria London for example houses the main public library, office space and UWO continuing education, Old Quebec Street has a large arena attached plus office space.

As an aside, in a rare case the Downtown Chatham Centre survived while the North Maple Mall on the outskirts of Chatham died (and was mostly demolished). They really are backwards in Chatham-Kent.

[go_leafs_go02]

I know people are up in arms about these malls and are pipe dreaming about them coming back in a major way. I think now would be the best time to demolish them (at least the small retail and interior gallery portions). Most malls that go down usually are not resurrected unless they are heavily reinvested in. It is not because the market for retail is not there. It is because the owners of them failed to change with the times and lost tenants over the years, perception of vacancy lingers for a long time. In a mall this is difficult to overcome. Either convert them to other uses or eliminate them. Perhaps keep the large retail spaces to attract anchor tenants. They are creating excessive and unnecessary retail space and driving up vacancy figures for the entire downtown.

Are there any examples of failed malls that have successfully been resurrected?
London's galleria was alot like CC, with Eatons, the Bay, which all left before I moved there. The mall was quite empty and quiet, but the central library was relocated to the former Bay site, and now is a modern 3 story library that attracts alot of people. A movie theatre (Rainbow Cinemas) moved in, and shows cheap matinee movies and discounted older movies (that have passed through the main theatres)

UWO has moved a business school in there, so part of the mall is now institutional, and in the past month, a major retail tenant is moving in, Suzi Shear. London's downtown population is growing quite quickly, now all that needs to be placed there is a grocery store so that downtown population can live efficiently without a vehicle if need be.

The mall used to encompass two complete blocks, with walkways going over top of a road to connect the two sides (it was set up like a large loop) The one side is where the library and retail is located, while the other side is under renovation, being converted into offices and the like, and the theatre is located there as well.

I also lived in chatham for 7 years, (1993-2000) and that mall is an exception. It's still thriving quite well, considering Chatham isn't really that strong economically, and the other mall, listed above, was converted from a mall, to a Walmart, to a Winners, and to a grocery store, and I believe the Walmart has moved down the road to form a SuperCentre, I haven't seen the place since 2004 or so, so I can't give feedback on its current status.

[flar]

Also of note, most of the downtown malls were anchored by Eaton's, (eg: Brantford, Sarnia, Guelph and Hamilton). Downtown Chatham Centre has always had Sears. There was also a Consumer's Distributors there. North Maple Mall had Woolco before Wal-Mart, and also thrived before Wal-mart.

[oldcoote]

Interesting comparison.

I'm sure newer malls away from the city core (Masonville in London and Limeridge here), also helped pull people away from the downtown.

[go_leafs_go02]

Fact is though, at least in London's case. Masonville mall was built well before Galleria in downtown was created. I'm not sure on the exact years, but Galleria opened in 1990ish, Masonville, along with several other London malls opened 10 or so years before that.

If anyone wants to correct me on that, go ahead, flar might know more.

[FairHamilton]

I'm not sure on the exact years, but Galleria opened in 1990ish.

If anyone wants to correct me on that, go ahead, flar might know more.

I don't know when The Galleria was built, but is was there in 1986. I think it was owned by Robert Campeau at that time. But I could be wrong. There was something in downtown London at that time, or maybe it was just being built around that time. Memory gets a little fuzzy from the 80's.

[FairHamilton]

Just found this, so they must have been building it when I was hanging around London in the late 80's. But, I was right about being Campeau.....

http://lfpress.ca/specialsections/downtown.html

[highwater]

Good Lord, Campeau. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a while. One for the "Where are they now?" file.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Galleria London was formed by expanding/renovating a small, existing downtown mall called Wellington Square. Wellington Square was attached to the London Eaton's which was built in the 1960s. The Galleria was conceived as a way of expanding the retail space dramatically and allowing for a connection over to the Hudson's Bay store--which had previously been a Simpsons location.

Indeed very little remains of North Maple Mall in Chatham. Wal*Mart moved to a new a site and has subsequently expanded that into a Supercenter. The Zehrs that was at NMM was expanded and converted to a Real Canadian Superstore.

The number of midsized downtown malls which were anchored by Eaton's was the result of a provincial government program launched in the 1980s called The Downtown Urban Renewal Programme. Eaton's and Cadillac Fairview were part of the venture and it resulted in the construction of Eaton's stores and associated malls in Guelph (Eaton Centre Guelph), Brantford (Eaton Market Square), Sarnia (Sarnia Eaton Centre) and Peterborough (Peterborough Square). Eaton's also got involved in downtown redevelopment in a few other cities including Kitchener and Thunder Bay. In some form or another all of these malls have had difficulty--and did so prior to Eaton's departure. The whole thing was wrong-headed, it severly hurt T. Eaton Co, which was saddled with badly underperforming locations (although their initial investment was next to nil), Cadillac wrote off and sold the real estate and the municipalities had greyfield retail buildings left to deal with and debt related to the loans which financed the original construction. The leasing deals were complex enough that it took Eaton's first trip to the Companies' Creditors Arrangements Act to get out of them--and I believe all 4 of the DURP locations were on the first round of closures list. As an aside I was inside the old Kitchener Market Square earlier this week--and it is downright miserable--a few chains are left in the upper level food court, and there is one branded retailer left--Carlton Cards.

[flar]

Fairhamilton, there was another mall before Galleria, you're probably thinking of that. Masonville came in the 80's, White Oaks and Westmount were built in the 70's.

edit: looks like you have your answer!

[FairHamilton]

Good Lord, Campeau. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a while. One for the "Where are they now?" file.

On another thread (sapphire thread perhaps), there was mention about the height of buildings in Ottawa not being higher then the Parliament buildings.

On a university trip to Ottawa (I went to Laurier) we had a talk from a Carleton Urban Geography professor who ranted about how Campeau ignored that rule and broke all kinds of height bylaws. Once the seal was broken there was no stopping buildings from being higher than the parliament buildings.

[fastcarsfreedom]

What building would that be FairHamilton?--although there are a few buildings in Ottawa that are higher than the peace tower--the vast majority of the buildings downtown are midrise--geez--what's the tallest building, Place Bell, I assume?

Campeau also laid waste to a huge swath of the department store business in the U.S. and once mused about bringing Bloomingdale's to T.O.

[markbarbera]

There are several buildings in Ottawa-Hull that have a height taller than the Parliament's 92m-tall Peace Tower, such as the following:

Place de Ville III
Minto Metropole
Le Parc
Marriot Hotel
World Exchange
Place Bell

While these buildings have a height greater than the actual parliament buildings' height, the actual elevation of their peaks fall below the elevation of Parliament's peak once the height of the hill is factored into account. While the buildings above all are technically taller when measuring from the foundation to the peak, none of their peaks stand as tall as the tip of the flagstaff on Parliament Hill's Peace Tower.

[DC83]

So I was walking thru Jackson today, and noticed a huge section hollowed out with a "LEASED to Hangers" sign up?

It's in the hall with Payless/The Source and that. Anyone heard of Hangers? I can't find a website for them either, but the section they leased is pretty big! Probably along the lines of Urban Planet.

[matt602]

Seeing how I've never heard of them before it's probably another crappy no-name clothing store that won't last longer than a year.

[miketoronto]

Fact is though, at least in London's case. Masonville mall was built well before Galleria in downtown was created. I'm not sure on the exact years, but Galleria opened in 1990ish, Masonville, along with several other London malls opened 10 or so years before that.

If anyone wants to correct me on that, go ahead, flar might know more.

I do not know the exact dates, but I do know that Masonville Mall is considered the main reason downtown London almost died. Masonville is the "downtown" of London now. Its the place all the stores want to be in and where people go to be seen.

I use to work with someone who had lived in London Ontario, and I would ask her about the city, and all she woud talk about is Masonville.

These smaller Ontario cities never got the message that such small cities do not need regional malls and that downtown was really the only major retail centre that was needed. These cities sadly wrote the death of their downtowns themselves, Hamilton included for allowing Limeridge Mall.
Even look south of the border to Columbus, Ohio. Columbus was one of the last major American cities where suburbanites went downtown to shop, and downtown was the place to be.
They even had a very busy downtown shopping mall. That all came to an end around the year 2000 when Columbus alowed huge new regional malls to be built within their city limits.
Now the downtown mall is dead, all the department stores have closed, and downtown is no longer a destination.

These cities have no one to blame but themselves for the most part. Ottawa is the only smaller city that put a stop to suburban expansion before it fully killed downtown Ottawa(Downtown Ottawa still has its problems with lack of retail downtown). The Region of Ottawa-Carlton had a ban on suburban malls till the 1990's. The suburban mall ban is credited for making the Rideau Centre in downtown Ottawa, the main shopping destination in Greater Ottawa.
Hamilton, London, and other regions could have inacted similar suburban mall bans if they had wanted to.

[flar]

But I do know that Masonville Mall is considered the main reason downtown London almost died. Masonville is the "downtown" of London now..


That is completely false.

[fastcarsfreedom]

miketoronto--if Ottawa-Carleton had a ban on regional shopping malls until the 1990s, can you please elaborate on the existence of Bayshore, Place d'Orleans, St. Laurent Centre, etc? All date to the 1970s or 1980s. Rideau is healthy only because of the huge influx of Monday-Friday workers in the city, with an additional boost from both uOttawa and tourism. The Ogilvy's location in downtown Ottawa has been vacant since the mid 1980s, sprawl west of the city is absolutely explosive--and for all the complaints I hear on this Forum about big-box developments--Ottawa has Hamilton outgunned 2 to 1 on that front.

Your points about city's and whether or not they "needed" regional shopping centres is an interesting one. If all that was "needed" was downtown shopping, why didn't the "unneeded" regional malls fail?

As for Columbus, the situation there really isn't as different as you make it out to be. Suburban malls have been a fact of life there since the 1960s and 70s, just like everywhere else. As opposed to "thriving" as you suggested, the downtown retail scene in Columbus was in steep decline--which is why the mall you mentioned--Columbus City Center was built in the first place...just as similar developments popped up in urban areas across North America. Like most of it's counterparts, CCC had a short period of success followed by a precipitous decline. Macys, which now owns a huge share of the moderate-to-better department store business in the U.S. already made it clear it had no interest in operating in downtown Columbus--it closed the flagship Lazarus store several years ago--and just closed CCC's last anchor, a Kaufmann's it inherited when it bought May. If you want to talk about downtown retail that works ALONGSIDE suburban retail--Indianapolis--which I've mentioned before, is the place to direct your attention. Pittsburgh has had some limited success also.

I don't want to discourage anyone from sharing their ideas here--but your posts on the downtown/suburban issue are often disjointed and unrealistic.

[raisethehammer]

So I was walking thru Jackson today, and noticed a huge section hollowed out with a "LEASED to Hangers" sign up?

It's in the hall with Payless/The Source and that. Anyone heard of Hangers? I can't find a website for them either, but the section they leased is pretty big! Probably along the lines of Urban Planet.

never heard of it either.....hopefully it's decent. I'd also never heard of Urban Planet until they came here. And I've been pleasantly surprised.

[DC83]

never heard of it either.....hopefully it's decent. I'd also never heard of Urban Planet until they came here. And I've been pleasantly surprised.

I have asked around, to my friends who work in malls, and still no word. hahaha
But it's space is huge (esp compared to most stores in JS). I'm so curious!!
I'm going to assume it's an old lady'esq type of shop (like Northern Reflections). I bet they heard about the potential seniors tower at Lister and jumped right on! hahahaha 'Free Bingo Ticket with Every Cardigan'

Ya, I only knew of Urban Planet b/c it took over the awesome two-level Caban (Club Monaco's Home Store) on Queen West in TO. The clothes, however, are crap. But at least it's 'mainstream'.

[SteelTown]

'Free Bingo Ticket with Every Cardigan'

:haha: but but I like cardigan as well, I'm I old or too feminine?!? lol

[block43]

There's also a new shoe store opening in the old "English Butler" store in JS.

Cardigans can be cool.

[block43]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2157/2081760257_1efb40357e.jpg
Image from flickr.com

[DC83]

:haha: but but I like cardigan as well, I'm I old or too feminine?!? lol

Ummm, I'm going to say 'old school', not OLD! ;)

Cardigans can be cool.

Indeed... but there's a better selection for the 'cool' cardigans at our cpl vintage clothing shops along King W.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Hangers?

If I was to guess by the name I would think it's an off-price apparel store in the vein of Winners, Labels and Designer Depot. However, it's either an upstart or an independent--something about it just sounds like a play on/rip-off of Labels--not sure why.

[DC83]

Hangers?

If I was to guess by the name I would think it's an off-price apparel store in the vein of Winners, Labels and Designer Depot. However, it's either an upstart or an independent--something about it just sounds like a play on/rip-off of Labels--not sure why.

Ya, definately! But from the size of the space their leasing, it can't really be indy. I'm thinking it's along the lines of Talize... 'new' meets used.

[ihateittoo]

any one know anything about the rezoning of St Andrews church (I believe that the name?) THe abandoned church at Hunter and Bay... On the apllication notice it said restaurants and jazz like that. Curious... oh so...

[fastcarsfreedom]

Perhaps--I don't read the Canadian Business papers as much as I probably should--so I wouldn't know if it's some sort of upstart. Last I heard on that front HBC was trying to unload Designer Depot and it looked like Labels--which is part of the Fairweather Group was the likely buyer. Winners, part of the much bigger TJX Corp, continues to thrive and expand of course.

For the life of me I can't think where this space you're describing is?...Phase I? Unless Yale has drastically changed course recently, the lease rates for retail in JS were still high.

[DC83]

For the life of me I can't think where this space you're describing is?...Phase I? Unless Yale has drastically changed course recently, the lease rates for retail in JS were still high.

it shares the hall with Japan Camera, Radio Shak (aka The Source), Payless, Carol Baker Visage, etc... I believe it's the hall that goes out the old BMO bank doors (out onto King William).

This space is pretty much the whole South side of the hall taking up the space between Japan Camera & The Source.

[miketoronto]

miketoronto--if Ottawa-Carleton had a ban on regional shopping malls until the 1990s, can you please elaborate on the existence of Bayshore, Place d'Orleans, St. Laurent Centre, etc? All date to the 1970s or 1980s.


It was just after these malls were built, that Ottawa-Carltone inacted a ban on the expansion and construction of further suburban shopping. I don't have all the details infront of me at the moment, but the ban had a goal that downtown had to recapture a certain % of regional retail sales back from the suburbs. This happened in the 1990's, and the ban was lifted. Rideau Centre was the only mall allowed to be constructed or expanded during this time, as it was downtown. It has been a success and is a regional destination because it has stores that can't be found in any other mall in Ottawa.

As I said now, the ban has been lifted.


The Ogilvy's location in downtown Ottawa has been vacant since the mid 1980s, sprawl west of the city is absolutely explosive--and for all the


Ogilvy's closed all their Ottawa stores. And just for reference, they were not connected Ogilvy in Montreal. Two totally different department stores.


Your points about city's and whether or not they "needed" regional shopping centres is an interesting one. If all that was "needed" was downtown shopping, why didn't the "unneeded" regional malls fail?


My point is that these smaller cities did not need regional malls, because they are only large enough to really support one huge regional retail centre. By building these malls, all they did was divert the retail dollars going downtown, to these malls. It is not like these cities had huge amounts of new residents to serve, etc. For the most part, all these malls do is move the retail spending around. You even see this when another mall opens on the scene, and an older mall closes down or falls into decline. That is because there really is no new retail dollars to go around. All you are doing is moving the retail dollars to a different location.
Malls were a new invention and cool, and sadly they sucked life from the downtowns, and killed off the downtowns by the time the novality of the mall was over.


[img]
downtown retail that works ALONGSIDE suburban retail--Indianapolis--which I've mentioned before, is the place to direct your attention. Pittsburgh has had some limited success also.
[/quote]

Indianapolis works, because their downtown mall has stores unique to the region. Infact many downtown supporters are worried, because Nordstroms the anchor department store in the downtown mall, is thinking of opening a second location which would be in the suburbs. If this happens, peopel predict the downtown mall will fall into decline, as many people have said the only reason they go into downtown Indy is to go to Nordstroms.


I don't want to discourage anyone from sharing their ideas here--but your posts on the downtown/suburban issue are often disjointed and unrealistic.

I don't think I get my ideas across that clear on this forum :) But its not that hard. These cities are small and do not need a massive amount of regional shopping malls. And all we are doing is moving retail dollars around and killing off downtown and other malls, by allowing uncontrolled suburban retail growth(I am not talking about local milk and food stores, I am talking regional retail stores).
There are plenty of places that limit suburban retail, and a business has to prove that opening a store in the suburbs will not just eat retail dollars away from established stores in the city.

We are over retailed in North America, and our downtowns have suffered because of it, and now malls are starting to suffer from it. Not so much in Canada, but in the US for sure.

If we are going to change things, then cities like Hamilton are going to have to get tough. If we do not raise the bar high then we will not even get half of what we want to happen. So Hamilton has to go in their and fight for their downtown. The city covers the entire metropolitan area except for Burlington. So the city has it easy in imposing limits of suburban retail expansion, and promoting downtown, etc. Yeah the suburban areas will yell a little, but in the long run you will have a city that is much better off.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Interesting point on the Ottawa-Carleton situation mainly because the ban--if it was enacted when you said it was--was a complete wooden nickel. The regional centre building boom was essentially over by the time the three centers I mentioned were built. Bayshore was extensively rebuilt several years ago--I would have to check with Cambridge Leaseholds website to confirm the year--but the short story is an entire third level was added--and I can't think of two many retailers that are at Rideau that aren't at Bayshore. I'm taking you to task because it's an over-simplifaction of fact--Rideau's success can be attributed to a number of factors--the least of which is a perceived lack of competition (let's not forget there are regional centres in the Gatineau region also).

The downtown Ottawa Ogilvy's closed many years before the rest of the locations (If memory serves me correctly, Billings Bridge, Place d'Orleans and St. Laurent). In fact, Ogilvy's merged with Hamilton's Robinson's chain and briefly took the name Robinson-Ogilvy--before reverting to simply Robinson's. The Hamilton-area Robinson's stores (with the exception of Burlington Mall) were actually gone long before those in Ottawa. And yes, Montreal is an entirely different Ogilvy (heaven forbid don't use the apostrophe)--the Montreal Ogilvy('s) is peerless and upscale--perhaps Holt-Renfrew is in the same league, but that's it.

[RePinion]

And yes, Montreal is an entirely different Ogilvy (heaven forbid don't use the apostrophe)--the Montreal Ogilvy('s) is peerless and upscale--perhaps Holt-Renfrew is in the same league, but that's it.

The Montreal Ogilvy's (Bill 101 be damned!) is a mere shadow of its former self. I was in there last summer (or was it two summers ago? I can't recall) and was dismayed to see worn carpets, stodgy product selection, and enervated staff. It certainly did not seem up to par with Holts, which has a much more current selection, more fashionable sales staff, etc. However, I do know that the two stores were for much of their history in direct competition, with Ogilvy even being considered the slightly more prestigious of the two; I suppose in a way they still are ...

[miketoronto]

The Montreal Ogilvy's (Bill 101 be damned!) is a mere shadow of its former self. I was in there last summer (or was it two summers ago? I can't recall) and was dismayed to see worn carpets, stodgy product selection, and enervated staff. It certainly did not seem up to par with Holts, which has a much more current selection, more fashionable sales staff, etc. However, I do know that the two stores were for much of their history in direct competition, with Ogilvy even being considered the slightly more prestigious of the two; I suppose in a way they still are ...

Are you sure it was Ogilvy's? I was just there last August, and it has to be the most classy store in Canada. It looked very well kept, and the selection was amazing. Just to expensive for me :)

[RePinion]

I guess I was there two summers ago then. Maybe they finally renovated it. I hope that they did, as it would be a shame to see such a great Montreal institution go into the gutter. It's not that the store was a dump or anything; I just thought it felt less contemporary than Holt's. It definitely is one of the classiest stores in Canada and I wish Hamilton had something like it too (I guess the Right House was at one time kind of like that, but I wouldn't really know).

[fastcarsfreedom]

RePinion--I certainly didn't see anything worn or outdated when I was at Ogilvy's--but I would concur that they are in a slightly different category than Holt Renfrew is--Holt's has definitely moved in the more contemporary (fashion magazine) direction if you will--while I would say Ogilvy is a little more on the classic/conservative side. Price points are still relatively similar. If there is any disappointment it's Les Ailes, which went out of it's way to outbid Sears for the T. Eaton Co. property and has perennially downsized it's so-called flagship store there (in the burbs it built an outlet at Fairview Pointe-Claire and never even moved in). Price points are still relatively similar. The store looked great when I was in there this past July--looking forward to going back and seeing what magic HBC worked--The Bay was completely covered in scaffolding last summer...not sure what they had planned for the interior.

You're bringing back good memories of last summer in MTL for me--get off the Metro at Miesian masterpiece Westmount Square (is that the Peel station?) and slowly make my way down Ste Catherine...great city, best we've got in this country.

[miketoronto]

You're bringing back good memories of last summer in MTL for me--get off the Metro at Miesian masterpiece Westmount Square (is that the Peel station?) and slowly make my way down Ste Catherine...great city, best we've got in this country.

I agree. I love Toronto(and my day visits to Hamilton), however Montreal really knows how to put together their streets. Toronto's downtown has amazing shopping and stores, and feel, etc. But Montreal one steps us. There is nothing like St Catharine Street. It is a perfect mix of everything. And great architecture, etc. Now I want to go back and go shopping at Maison Simons :)

[raisethehammer]

A Simons in Hamilton would rock.

[hammergirl]

Jackson Square/HCC made it into a blog that documents retail history, primarily in the US. Most of the malls they feature are dead or dying.


http://www.labelscar.com/canada/hamilton-centre

Someone should document Centre Mall before it's torn down.

Just took a look in my closet and there's stuff in there from when I worked at Braemar in JS. I think I also have a dress from Town & Country in JS.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Wow, hammergirl, you brought back memories of two long-gone Dylex-owned mall standards. My mother loved both Braemar and T&C--in fact my mother still wears a silk Diane von Furstenberg scraf I bought her at T&C.

[FairHamilton]

Jackson Square/HCC made it into a blog that documents retail history, primarily in the US. Most of the malls they feature are dead or dying.


http://www.labelscar.com/canada/hamilton-centre

Someone should document Centre Mall before it's torn down.

Just took a look in my closet and there's stuff in there from when I worked at Braemar in JS. I think I also have a dress from Town & Country in JS.

Ah, the memories come flooding back. I guess I'll have to dig in the back of a closet somewhere for a Big Steel Man jacket :cool:

[fastcarsfreedom]

Wow...Big Steel Man...geez...this is like Dylex revisted...I think we've only left out Thriftys and the lone survivor from that business--Fairweather. I was a little young to have anything from Big Steel Man--however my high school prom suit came from Robinsons, with a killer tie from Le Chateau. I may drift out of Jackson Square and downtown a little--but I can remember going into Elks with my dad (Eastgate Square, I think) and I'm reasonably sure that at some point in my past I had a pair of shoes from Maher.

[FairHamilton]

I was a little young to have anything from Big Steel Man

You are very fortunate :)

There were other stores and one which sold casual womans clothes that was particularily bad (not Fairweather).

I can remember buying a girlfriend a horrible cable stitch sweater and skirt (it was the mid-80's). I now shudder when I think of it........... But, I can picture the outfit like I bought it yesterday.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Hahaha...FairHamilton--a few years back my wife was helping me clean up the last of the stuff that I'd left behind at my folks place when to my wife's delight and horror she uncovered my stash of shaker-knit sweaters--I think there were only a couple, and I'm certain they were from Thriftys...I distinctly remember sitting in school--probably Grade 8, sweating to death under that acrylic sweater...scary stuff. Within a couple of years of that I hit high school and went on an Ocean Pacific binge.

[SpongeG]

Perhaps--I don't read the Canadian Business papers as much as I probably should--so I wouldn't know if it's some sort of upstart. Last I heard on that front HBC was trying to unload Designer Depot and it looked like Labels--which is part of the Fairweather Group was the likely buyer. Winners, part of the much bigger TJX Corp, continues to thrive and expand of course.

For the life of me I can't think where this space you're describing is?...Phase I? Unless Yale has drastically changed course recently, the lease rates for retail in JS were still high.

yah HBC sold off designer depot a while back

there was talk that they would sell off Home Outfitters but they decided to hold onto it for now apparently

Winners has plans to open a shoe store chain apparently - they noticed the lack of competition for that market in Canada - unlike the states that has lots of disciount "designer" shoe stores - shoe pavillion, DSW, etc.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Home Outfitters is a near clone of Bed, Bath & Beyond, from store size to layout to product mix. The assumption has always been that if and when HO is sold, it would be sold to BB&B. With Jerry Zucker out of the picture, I think questions remain as to whether HBC will remain intact in its current form going forward.

[hammergirl]

Thinking back to my Braemar days, I could see a store like Winners doing quite well in JS. We used to get a lot of women from the offices, banks etc coming in on their breaks and lunch hour.

Homesense would do well too. I know many women that go to those stores weekly.


eta - my prom dress came from Career Girl Bridal on King Street.