[LikeHamilton]

The Spec, 17 November 2007

City courting big retailers for core

BY LISA GRACE MARR
Ron Marini is actively recruiting bigbox retailers to the downtown with a letter campaign. It’s the vision of the city’s director of downtown renewal to restore the core to its glory days when department stores and their mega window displays brought glamour to the streetscape. “It’s a way to be more proactive with getting business downtown,” he said.
Mayor Fred Eisenberger is signing many to ratchet up the tone of the letters. “Business leaders have reacted positively to our approach … and (they say it) shows Hamilton is serious about building our local economy,” said Eisenberger.
One of those responses includes a letter from Peter Robinson, CEO of Mountain equipment Co-op, who ultimately decided to locate in Burlington, but didn’t rule out considering Hamilton in the future.
It was that miss and the four planned new hotels in or near the downtown which encouraged Marini to start formally inviting retailers to visit. Marini wouldn’t say who is targeted in the letter campaign, but he did say he’d love to land a big grocery store such as Sobeys and other national retailers such as Winners, Staples, or Smart Centres (developers for Wal-Mart and other big-box retailers).
“It’s just a chance to open their eyes to what’s happening here … people are living in the downtown now and with the growth projections here we’re asking, ‘Do you want to be a part of that?’” Marini said the city has a number of locations in and around the downtown in mind. “There are a number of retailers with urban storefront models. I was in (downtown) Winnipeg and there was a Staples that was in a two-storey building. You have to adapt to each environment.”
Sid Leon, owner of Irving’s Famous Clothes on James Street North, said business has improved dramatically since condos went up behind his store.
Competition from big-box stores? No problem. “We need to have destination stores. We need the mix.” Kathy Drewitt, executive director of the Downtown BIA, agreed, pointing out that only 15 per cent of members are retailers. “There’s a need for more stores in the core.”

[flar]

If this will bring people downtown, just don't invite Wal-mart and and don't let them build new big boxes. Make them adapt to existing buildings.

[raisethehammer]

while I like the idea of courting retailers who would otherwise be fixated on farmland, I have NO USE in seeing Walmart downtown.
It would suck the life out of surrounding retail similar to what Jackson Sq did when it was built.
I don't mind some specific stores - grocery, office supplies, home decor etc....
but it has been proven time and time again in small towns and big cities that Walmart does not add anything to surrounding neighbourhoods. It only takes.
And at this point, downtown can't handle a huge vacuum coming in and sucking the life out of the place.

Other than that, I like Mr Marini's pro-active approach. They really got MEC attention, and will certainly gain the attention of other retailers with that approach.
It's about time we started banging down the doors of these businesses to locate here....of course, another whole issue is the design.
I have no use for any of them locating here if they are going to build their usual, stand-alone crap. Add in some office or residential space and build to the sidewalk and it would be a great addition to the downtown.

[the dude]

i'd like to see a small'ish grocery store locate downtown, not something massive like sobey's or S.O.B.'s as i like to call it. when i lived in ottawa my neighbourhood grocery store was a great example of a mixed-use building. a former bank with grocery on the main level and affordable housing above. i don't have a photo but found this sketch.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/hartman.jpg
there are similar examples in other cities but not here...naturally.

[raisethehammer]

yea, Portland has a pile of grocery stores like that...if you look at their development thread you see them all over the place.
Hamilton still refuses to mandate proper development like that.

[miketoronto]

Not so great an idea. Any stores that open downtown need to be unique and offer something you can't get at Limridge.

The reason downtown Hamilton fell in the first place, is because all the stores you could find downtown opened branches in the malls.

Downtown Hamilton also has a large number of chain stores as it is, in the City Centre and Jackson Square.

I think Hamilton should look at other cities like Pittsburgh and Cincinnati to see that courting chain stores does not always work, as people are not going to come down unless the store offers something different from its suburban counterpart.

[raisethehammer]

good points Mike.
You're right - people from other parts of the city won't come downtown to shop at a Winners or HomeSense since they are surrounded by them in their suburban areas.
However, a big problem right now is that many downtown residents go out to those suburban areas to shop since the choices downtown are pretty slim.
Downtown Hamilton actually has a good number of neat, niche stores. It's one of the things I love about living downtown.
But I think we'll need to get some more of those 'basics' and department store types in order to keep local residents downtown to do their shopping instead of leaving for the burbs.
The great dining, nightlife, culture, arts and neat indy stores are what will draw suburban folks downtown....but they'll also browse their 'chains' while downtown too I would think, just like people do in other cities. Although at this point the focus is on the local residents and new residents moving downtown. There's a huge market of local residents who would love to do all their shopping downtown. Whether suburbanites come down is really irrelevant (in fact, I prefer if many of them don't).

[HAMRetrofit]

^these are some good points. Design will be key to weather or not this development will be a success. The stores should try to develop flagships in their downtown locations that offer unique experiences over the suburbs.

[SteelTown]

I don't mind if we get some big box to the downtown. Though I would perfer it be all along a street with streetfront instead of what Toronto did with putting them all in one new mall, Toronto Life Square (mini Time Square version).

And yes a grocery store is aboustely mandatory definitely needed!

[raisethehammer]

I agree with above references to flagship stores as opposed to TO's big mall.
Boston, Montreal, New York all have flagships at street level on their downtown streets.
That would be great.

[flar]

I don't think downtown stores need to be unique or independent. We have as much of that as the city can support already in Westdale, Dundas, Concession, Locke, Ottawa, James North and Barton. Get the big draws downtown. Look at all the highrises in Durand and Corktown. People live downtown and go out to the Meadowlands, Limeridge or Burlington for big box shopping, why not have it downtown. Again though, no big box format buildings, use existing structures.

[raisethehammer]

I don't think downtown stores need to be unique or independent. We have as much of that as the city can support already in Westdale, Dundas, Concession, Locke, Ottawa, James North and Barton. Get the big draws downtown. Look at all the highrises in Durand and Corktown. People live downtown and go out to the Meadowlands, Limeridge or Burlington for big box shopping, why not have it downtown. Again though, no big box format buildings, use existing structures.

bang on.

[theman23]

More coffee times and tim hortons please!

[DC83]

Exactly! As a downtown resident myself, I often find myself shopping at malls or suburbs for things I KNOW I need (ie Homesense, etc).
However, if I want to browse, I tend to walk along KingW, Locke, etc. And I usually end up buying, too.

Miketoronto stated that Pittsburgh's core isn't working b/c it has chain stores?? This is totally false. Downtown Pittsburgh is BUSTLING (much to my surprise, actually)!!! And they have Macy's, Saks 5th Ave and a bunch of other chain stores. They're concentrated along one street (I 4get the name) making IT a shopping destination.

As for WalMart, I'm sure everyone in this forum would agree that it would be the worst mistake Marini could make re: downtown retail.

I would LOVE to see:
Winners
HomeSense
HMV
The Bay (in my dreams), or I'd even settle for a Zellers!

EDIT: downtown Hamilton needs more bakeries! Another thing I love about Montréal is that they have this chain "Le Pain D'Oré" everywhere in the city. And they make awesome fresh breads and pastries etc. So I have to add Le Pain D'Oré to my retailers wish-list.

[matt602]

I think that downtown we already have a fair offering of independant, unique stores. A mix of chain stores downtown would compliment this well as it would get a new audience downtown who would see the unique stores they never notice and maybe open up their wallets. They'll come for the stuff they know, but discover something new. When they go up to Limeridge, there is nothing to discover. They always come back with the same bags in their hands.

Downtown defnitely NEEDS a grocery store. The Farmers Market is fine for speciality things such as meat, vegetables/fruit, breads but it's not a quick one stop shop. It's more of an "experience" shopping. If you live right in the core and want a normal grocery store, you've got quite the walk or even drive ahead of you, either to Fortinos at Dundurn in the West or No Frills at Tisdale in the East. Both too far to walk if you'll be carrying heavy bags as well.

Where I live in the Barton/Woodward area I've got a selection of 2 grocery stores within fairly easy walking distance (Price Chopper at Barton/Strathearne and Sobey's at Nash Queenston). One of them is even 24hrs. Both of these stores are crowded on any day of the week, too.

[DC83]

^^ I think they're courting Sobeys (for a downtown store) b/c it's open 24HRS.

And ya, grocery shopping downtown sucks. I usually go to the market to buy my meats/cheeses/some veggies. But you're right, when it comes time for a good grocery shopping trip, I have to walk to Dundurn for Fortinos/Zarkey's. It's a good 45min'ish walk from my place. Plus the market's hours aren't reflective of most poeple's schedules anymore.

If they were to open a Sobey's downtown, I'd more than likely still shop at Fortino's however at least I would have an option. I mean, if I ever wake up and want fresh bread I would have to walk to Fortino's/No Frills. But if they were to open a Sobey's at say John/Wilson, it would knock a good 25mins off my walk time.

[matt602]

I think Sobey's could be a very nice thing for downtown. There are some Sobey's stores in downtown Toronto that are very tasteful. Not the standard big box, stucco cubes that you usually see but actual market style stores with mixed use on other levels.

Much like this building on Front St. which Sobey's bought and is turning into a store. Those huge garage doors will probably be incorporated into some kind of indoor/outdoor fruit market.

http://www.thefurnishedstay.com/images/blog/sobeys_front.jpg

And this one in downtown Edmonton:

http://members.shaw.ca/vincentwansink/Renderings/sobeys%20new.gif

[DC83]

Where is that on Front?
They already have one at Front/Church which is in the main level of a condo/apt bldg of some sort.

There's also a GREAT one at Gould/Mutual in the old Sears Warehouse bldg... gorgeous gorgeous Loft Conversion.

[the dude]

this city doesn't understand mixed use, so i'll believe it when i see it. those parking lots are perfect for a big box store.

[raisethehammer]

sadly, I think dude is right. those pics above would be great in the Hammer.
I bet we'll end up with little 'box nodes' around downtown - Ferguson/Barton, Main/Hess, Barton/Queen etc....
this city is clueless with this kind of thing.

[raisethehammer]

looks like a new clothing store opening next to the internet cafe at King and Caroline area.
Also, Green Monkey has moved into their new location on Locke...cool sign too.

[markbarbera]

So is Barton/Ferguson the new Canadian Tire site? CTC has a deadline for all small format stores to move to the new format (like the Queenston Road store), and the clock is ticking. That's why the Aldershot shop relocated to its new Waterdown road location. I don't think there's enough land to redevelop at Main and Victoria, which makes me wonder about Barton and Ferguson. Personally, I would love to see it on Wellington between King and Main. There is enough land provided the parking be placed underground, like they have done for some new locations in central Toronto.

[SteelTown]

I think Canadian Tire is deciding on what to do currently, why else explain why they haven't fixed the gas station.

[raisethehammer]

they won't put underground parking, I'm pretty sure of that.
They WERE going to go on Ferguson North, but got scared away by the unsavoury crowd.
Not sure what they're doing now.

[SteelTown]

Rendering of the Sobey's at Toronto

http://www.montglenproperties.com/images/Front%20St.%20Lge%20Rend.JPG

Sobey's lately have lately been opening stores at downtown areas across Canada. Here's one hoping!

[miketoronto]

Downtown Hamilton had and still does have chain stores already. Infact the Jackson Square Hamilton Eaton Centre had all the big name chains, and most closed down.

There were tons of people living near and in downtown Hamilton when it was a busy retail area, and the stores still closed down.

And this touches on the fact that Hamilton is not that big a city. With a metro pop of about 650,000, you can't support a big downtown shopping district, and then malls in every corner of the city. That is what smaller cities have done like Edmonton, Winnipeg, and their circumstances are the same as Hamilton.

I agree, downtowns need chains, local stores, and everything inbetween.

But opening a WINNERS or Homesense, is not going to do anything unless it is some sort of flagship, and it attracts people region wide.
The local downtown residents themselves can not support an entire downtown shopping district. The worst thing ever to happen to Hamilton was Limeridge. A city the size of Hamilton like I said, can only support so much retail. And Limeridge really was not need. If it was not built, downtown would probably still be the centre of retail in the city.

So that being said, even if its chains, you gotta create something unique. Do you really want downtown Hamilton to be nothing but Best Buy's and Winners?

DC83 about Pittsburgh. Have you been downtown on a Saturday or Sunday? VERY VERY QUIET. And two of the department stores the city paid to open have closed down, and not many other chains are still there. Actually the streets, Fifth and Forbes were in pretty bad shape when I was there a month ago, and the city is trying to do something to get people back downtown to shop. But they are in the same issue Hamilton is in. There is a huge mall just 10min from downtown, about the size of Limeridge.

I remember visiting downtown Hamilton when EATONS was still open, and I remember the Hamilton Eaton Centre actually being full of all the chains everyone wants back downtown and stuff.

To bring that back, you gotta find out why those chains failed not that long ago. And also look at the ones that are still there and doing fine. Hamilton is not as under chain stored as you might think :)

[LikeHamilton]

Is not the HART store in the Hamilton Centre a chain store? And is it not very well?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Actually Downtown Hamilton has a good population base--it's growing and growing in affluence. Downtown also continues to be a destination for the Mac crowd and for a lot of folks who get around primarily via HSR. The city also has it's 9-5/Monday-Friday crowd working in the core. That is plenty of a base to support expanded retail.

As for Miketoronto's post...well...yes, some chains closed downtown--true enough--but the early 90s recession happened to wipe out a lot of said chains completely--well others left for greener pastures...or...simply, chose not to deal with Yale any longer.

Lime Ridge (it's two words in the case of the mall) wasn't needed? How much of a grasp do you have on the Hamilton retail scene of 1983? If it wasn't needed--why has it had an almost 25 year run as one of the most successful super-regional shopping centers in Canada? The truth is, if Lime Ridge hadn't been built...well...someone just would've built something similar somewhere else...Lime Ridge didn't kill downtown Hamilton anymore than Polo Park did Winnipeg--changing demographics, changing shopping habits...these are the things that "killed" downtown.

[raisethehammer]

yes, let's not forget the student population downtown....check out the buses on a Saturday. TONS of students all getting off with their Limeridge and Eastgate bags.
Downtown Hamilton could easily support a winners, H&M, etc.....
maybe not the expensive high end stuff though...I can't name any since I don't know what they are. Birks is the only store that comes to mind.

[flar]

The period when Hamilton's Eaton Centre suffered a lot of closings was a time of recession (particularly bad in Hamilton) and retail restructuring. Eaton's was gonig out of business, the Bay was drastically reducing the number of stores, a number of chains went bankrupt or reduced stores, while Wal-mart was expanding like crazy. In London at the time, there were 4 big malls, Galleria, Masonville, White Oaks and Westmount. Galleria is now mostly converted to other uses just like Hamilton City Centre. Westmount has been in dire straits for years. But things have now turned around in retail, in the power centre format rather than huge supermalls. In the new circumstances, the downtown area in Hamilton, which is denser and more populous than most downtowns in Canada, could support more retail.

[coalminecanary]

Winners, Value Village, Food Basics

Those are my "top 3" for bringing chains to the core. They need to be within 2 blocks of Jackson Sq.

I would also like to see an IMAX theatre incorporated into the AGH or maybe the convention ctr

[fastcarsfreedom]

Sobeys or Fortinos doing a nice downtown market would be great--as they have done in other cities in Canada--a few of you may remember that the lower level of Terminal Towers (Effort Square) housed a Loblaws at one time--in it's later years I believe it was a Valu-Mart.

The concept of attracting some of the big-box chains to downtown makes sense--it's these retail businesses that are growth driven right now--and many are quickly eating up the suburban and exurban markets and looking for new growth opportunities. If some of these chains come downtown and manage to capture and hold more of the local shoppers--that will drive further traffic downtown, increase retail demand and make it more attractive for other businesses to follow suit. It's important to point out that many of the retailers in this country who are mostly mall-based are growth-hungry and growth-starved because there hasn't been significant traditional mall developement for over 15 years. Some of these retailers--whether they are past downtown merchants or not, would follow the increased demand and open up in the core.

As for The Bay--my understanding is that they looked fairly seriously when Eaton's closed--but ultimately the deal didn't get done. When downtown was at it's "worst" 10 years ago or so, Eaton's was still doing okay business in a 4 level store--when their financials were revealed in their insolvency filing--the Hamilton Eaton Centre store was middle-of-the-pack in terms of sales--if The Bay came in in a smaller format I'm sure they'd make a tidy profit--and whether you consider traditional department stores dinosaurs or not--they STILL drive a heck of a lot of foot traffic.

Seriously, if you think about it, a few big-box stores and/or a supermarket and/or a department store would wipe out almost all the vacant retail in JS/CC in one swoop. Yale however, has to be on board for this to work.

[coalminecanary]

the face of city ctr along james would need to be opened up as well. give these stores an inward AND outward facing storefront....

[raisethehammer]

not to mention they have just hacked up the city centre for city office space that will leave in 3 years.
then what?? demo the place.
I think Bay would do great dowtown...my wife would love it, I'll tell you that.

[DC83]

the face of city ctr along james would need to be opened up as well. give these stores an inward AND outward facing storefront....

Much like Toronto Eaton Ctr did.
Streetfront stores don't do as well as mall stores. But if you had an entrance from both inside AND out, the it would do very well. However, the Hamilton Eaton Ctr is designed in a way where the stores' storage areas are blocking them to open up onto the street.
What they could do as an alternative to completely gutting all stores to rearrange them in a way to open up onto James is to open NEW retail (ie: restaurants) in the few vacant streetfront stores it currently has.

Once Lister is open (let's wait for it to start 1st)... then this stretch of James WILL be bustling (at least 9-5). So opening restaurants/cafes/delis/etc in these few storefront and adding patio space (omg there is SO much sidewalk room) would make this stretch a vibrant area and people wont be afraid to walk up and down it. They will most likely walk into the CC via the James St entrance and start shopping again. imo anyway.

[fastcarsfreedom]

If you really want to think big--the street front side of the HCC could be completely redeveloped--storage space can move pretty easily (the building is a steel and concrete shell--everything inside is moveable)--even multi-level spaces could be created on the James Street side--with interior and exterior access and space on what are Level 2 & 3 of the HCC.

RTH, you are absolutely spot-on about The Bay...they would do well downtown even if they went for a suburban format store (what I mean by this is 100,000 - 150,000 sq ft)--you have the often-mentioned downtown population and the 9-5 population--all of whom have no access to whole sectors of merchandise downtown since Eaton's closed (think brand-name cosmetics/fragerences, giftware, whole brands and lines of apparel). The downtown Eaton's (the 'new' circa 1990 store) was obviously profitable (and it was big) as it was never included in any of the rounds of store closing Eaton's planned in it's final years. As I said, it was decidely middle-pack chain-wide in terms of sales--below Lime Ridge & Burlington but miles ahead of Eastgate. If Zellers ever gets into the inner-city store game (there is a decent one in Montreal near the old Forum at Place Alexis Nihon) they would do fine downtown too. Clearly once the city exits the HCC something will need to be done--pretty sure those escalators are still there (just boxed in)--why not fire 'em back up?

Anyway, this is all very positive--a full-court press to attract more retail downtown is a great initiative.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I keep forgetting to mention that the JS Coles could easily be upgraded to an !ndigo.

[matt602]

I recalled earlier on this forum that theres already a perfect space for an Indigo Book store. Right on top of the main entrance of Jackson Square with the large windows overlooking James, King and the rooftop square. This space has been empty since the Bank of Montreal left I believe. It's perfect for an Indigo or large format Cafe with the large windows looking out over downtown.

[raisethehammer]

yes, sweet idea for an Indigo and cafe at King/James.
A friend of mine at city hall told me today that the Spec reporter was the one who spoke about 'big boxes' in this article..not the city staffer who was interviewed.
They were merely talking about larger chain stores, not necessarily big box.
The spec added in the big box part on their own (big shocker).

[markbarbera]

Personally, I think the old podium would make a great location for downtown H&M flagship store, and the old Kresge's spot (that wretched bingo hall) would be a great spot for a Winners.

Unfortunatley the Bay is in no shape to expand anywhere in the near future. I would like to see a downtown department store return to the Gore Something a tad more upscale than Hart would definitely be nice.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Unless you have some specific insider info, it would be impossible to make any statement or judgement about what "shape" The Bay, or HBC for that matter are in, considering they are privately held business and haven't released financials publically since fiscal 2005. They currently have a store renovation/restoration program underway (Downtown Montreal, the former Morgan's flagship, is completely shrouded in scaffolding) and there is currently one new full line Bay store under construction--a replacement location--in Waterloo, Ontario.

[raisethehammer]

yea, I haven't heard of a new Bay store opening in a long time.
anyone know when their last new opening was??

[miketoronto]

The newest Bay store was the Polo Park store in Winnipeg. This is sort of a sad opening, as they opened the Polo Park store a couple years ago, and downsized the downtown store which is only like 10min down the road, at the same time.

The Bay I am very proud of for renovating the downtown stores. They really are putting a lot of energy into the downtown flagships. I was just at Christmas Street in the Queen Street store, and they did a great job. Much better then years past. So they are upping their style again.

How large was the downtown Hamilton EATONS?

I wonder why The Bay pulled out of places like downtown London and never built in Hamilton? They go on how these downtowns are dead and all that. Yet if you go to London, they have a family owned department store downtown that is going strong for over one hundred years, and even expanded a couple years ago with a whole new department. The store is even complete with an old fashioned elevator with an operator. So they can make a go of it, why can't the chains????????

Anyway I understand you want your chains. But also remember that downtown needs some unique stuff also, otherwise Hamilton will be no different then a mall, or any other corporate downtown street in another city. You need the chains, but also a good dose of local.

[fastcarsfreedom]

On that point Miketoronto--we agree. There absolutely needs to be a blend of chain stores and unique destination stores.

The "original" downtown Eaton's was enormous--I recall it having 6 above ground levels and one below--though my math maybe off. The bulk of the store was early 20th century and was originally a department store called The Arcade before Eaton's bought it...I believe in the 1920s (again, my timelines are weak). There were a couple of significant additions to the building in the 1960s (replacing the demolished City Hall) and in the 1970s (to connect the store to Jackson Square.) You're guess is as good as mine on square footage as it was a hodge-podge--but a big, beautiful store with a ton of character. Downtown Eaton's V2 opened in 1990 as part of the Hamilton Eaton Centre (now HCC) development. It was 4 levels--really looked a large version of a suburban store with 4 levels--based on that I'd ballpark the square footable at 300,000...but that's an uneducated guess.

London, Ontario is by my estimation as wiped-out in terms of downtown retail as Hamilton. When Eaton's folded it hit the Galleria very hard--and then The Bay left for greener pastures (the former Eaton's location at Masonville) and the downturn worsened even moreso.

As for why The Bay never appeared in downtown Hamilton--who knows for sure, but The Bay's presence in Hamilton is relatively recent. The major downtown department stores having been Eaton's, Hamilton-based Robinson's, and The Right House--owned by U.S. chain Mercantile Stores. The Bay broke into the Hamilton market in the early 1990s by buying up the bulk of the Robinson's chain--Centre Mall and Burlington Mall became Zellers--Lime Ridge and Eastgate became The Bay--and the downtown Robinson's was simply closed. Agreed also that The Bay's work on it's downtown flagships is admirable--Queen Street in Toronto (let's call it Simpsons for good measure) is impressive indeed.

[coalminecanary]

i'd also like to see a bulk barn

[miketoronto]

Maybe Hamilton should have talks with Kingsmill Department Store in Downtown London, Ontario on opening a branch in downtown Hamilton.

I think Kingsmill shows that a business can survive in our smaller downtowns and do well.

Kingsmill is a department store that has been operating in downtown Longon since 1865, and is still run by the family of the founder.

Instead of folding, the store has grown with the trends, and shows department stores can survive, by updating themselves.

Just think if a local store like this was opening in Hamilton. Not only would it provide goods to inner city residents, but it could also be a local destination at that.

http://www.heritagelondonfoundation.org/~doors_open/Images/Kingsmills.jpg
Photo courtesy of Heritage London.

To take a tour of the store click on
http://www.kingsmills.com/tour/kitchen.html

Just think if even a local business person opened a store like this again in downtown Hamilton.

[flar]

I went to Kingsmill's occasionally when I lived in London, mostly to admire the building and go for a ride on the manual elevator. It's an elegant store and a bit pricey. I always saw rich old ladies shopping in there, I hope it can survive after they're gone. I doubt they would expand anywhere. I think they actually used to have a second store in London.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Ahhh...but the BANK of manual elevators in the old Eaton's really kicked ass.

[DC83]

Ahhh...but the BANK of manual elevators in the old Eaton's really kicked ass.

That's the only thing I remember about the old Eaton's downtown (Ham).

re: dept stores, I would LOVE to see a Sporting Life open up downtown! But it's kind of pricey/posh for downtown Hamilton. So I'm just dreaming I guess.

[miketoronto]

A downtown needs a mix of everything, including posh and regular stores. So bring in the posh stores to :)

One thing to remember is to make downtown for everyone and not just the rich. Some downtowns like Pittsburgh and Cincinatti are trying just to attract the super rich stores, and I think that is one problem they are having problems. Because they are not trying to serve all shoppers.
So keep the mix.

[DC83]

Problem with Hamilton, Mike, is that the super-rich will most likely never shop downtown Hamilton.
They'd be more likely to drive the extra 45 mins to shop/play downtown Toronto.
It makes me angry b/c some people I know (who aren't "rich") will choose to go to the same event in downtown TO rather than downtown Ham simply b/c they're scared of downtown Ham.

This is what someone I know said to me the other day when I was telling them about the Trans-Siberian Orchestra:
"Why don't u just go see them at the ACC?"
"Ummmm, b/c Copps is a 10 min walk from me?!?!"
"Ya... but that's downtown..."

Sadly this is how most Mountaineers think.
ps: she was from the Mtn! haha

[raisethehammer]

Problem with Hamilton, Mike, is that the super-rich will most likely never shop downtown Hamilton.
They'd be more likely to drive the extra 45 mins to shop/play downtown Toronto.
It makes me angry b/c some people I know (who aren't "rich") will choose to go to the same event in downtown TO rather than downtown Ham simply b/c they're scared of downtown Ham.

This is what someone I know said to me the other day when I was telling them about the Trans-Siberian Orchestra:
"Why don't u just go see them at the ACC?"
"Ummmm, b/c Copps is a 10 min walk from me?!?!"
"Ya... but that's downtown..."

Sadly this is how most Mountaineers think.
ps: she was from the Mtn! haha


yea, I know people like that too. just laugh at them and don't worry about it.
folks like us are the ones who can do the opposite - I buy/do EVERYTHING downtown. If more downtown area residents do this, we'll be fine.

[DC83]

yea, I know people like that too. just laugh at them and don't worry about it.
folks like us are the ones who can do the opposite - I buy/do EVERYTHING downtown. If more downtown area residents do this, we'll be fine.

Well the demographics are changing, and more and more young people such as ourselves are moving downtown for the Convenience Factor.
There's actually another guy my age from upper stoney creek (where I grew up) who lives in my bldg too. He moved downtown for the sake of living in an urban environment, which imo, is the way most people my age going.

It's the boomers/elderly who still see downtown as a craphole b/c they were sold suburban homes when they 1st started developing 50 years or so ago. ie: my mom and her ignorant views towards the city's centre. They were brainwashed by developers years ago, and sorry to say, but I don't think people now-a-days are as easily persuaded. Especially the young, affluent, educated crowd! THESE are the ones moving downtown these days! And it will be them (us) who turns this core around.

[the dude]

perhaps, though none of my friends live downtown. they're scared shitless of it. i have a friend in westdale, a friend in dundas and the rest are scattered around ancaster [gag], burlington [yawn] and grimsby [yuck]. and they all live in the same type of house: cookie-cutter, faux column mcmansion. young people are still very drawn to the burbs, at least among my friends. for most people it's a natural thing to live in these places, so it's tough to break the habit.

[raisethehammer]

yea, the younger ones are the ones flocking back downtown...I can't believe how many people have moved into my neighbourhood in the past 4 years who are young marrieds or single...small children all over the place now. it wasn't like that when we moved in.
Young people are bored with the suburbs.

[DC83]

yea, the younger ones are the ones flocking back downtown...I can't believe how many people have moved into my neighbourhood in the past 4 years who are young marrieds or single...small children all over the place now. it wasn't like that when we moved in.
Young people are bored with the suburbs.

Everytime I walk thru Strathcona, I see more and more houses being reno'd/flipped.
Corktown is also in a similar boat. Infact, some guy bought 4 of the 6 houses along Patrick St (behind the Olympia) last year and flipped them all and sold them w/in the year!

Most people doing these renos/flips are younger, more affluent families or ppl planning on starting families.

So despite the majority of suburanites having this preconceived notion that downtown is evil/dirty, there's still a growing # of people who see otherwise... and those are the poeple we see moving into our urban hoods. Well, them and some GTA yuppies!

and getting back on subject, it is THEM (US) that will demand new retail in our city's centre!

[raisethehammer]

yup....that's why the guy bought up the Corktown and did the huge reno. He even made the comment in his Spec interview that "people don't have any clue what's going on down here".
Same with the guys from Honest Lawyer, same with the guys from London Taps...the momentum is growing for sure. One house and building at a time.

[miketoronto]

Suburbanites still go downtown though. Whenever I am in Hamilton and ride the HSR, the buses from the mountain are packed with people going into downtown. So I don't think it is easy to paint all suburbanites as scared :)

The thing that bothers me sometimes is that we basically are counting on residents right in downtown and the surrounding neighbourhoods to keep downtown healthy. And we are sort of almost putting the verdict down, that downtown will never be a true centre of the region anymore, and just a local area for downtowners who live there. I still have a problem with reducing a downtown area to that of just a local neighbourhood. I would still like to see our city centre's reclaim the status of the "centre" they should be.

[flar]

Decentralization seems to be a peculiarity of Hamilton. I've mentioned it before, but there's never any buzz about citywide events. Everyone sticks to their local area. Every BIA in Hamilton has their own festivals, etc. They are usually well attended but the ones that are "Hamilton wide" are often not. Nobody usually even knows about them. Back in London, every major event was downtown, and everyone knew about it, and they were always well attended. But that city didn't have as many well defined independent neighbourhoods and suburbs like Hamilton does.

[coalminecanary]

re: dept stores, I would LOVE to see a Sporting Life open up downtown!

Funny just this week I proposed sporting life to ecdev as a possible retailer to target for moving into the fed building since it seems mec is blind to this opportunity :-p

[raisethehammer]

Suburbanites still go downtown though. Whenever I am in Hamilton and ride the HSR, the buses from the mountain are packed with people going into downtown. So I don't think it is easy to paint all suburbanites as scared :)

The thing that bothers me sometimes is that we basically are counting on residents right in downtown and the surrounding neighbourhoods to keep downtown healthy. And we are sort of almost putting the verdict down, that downtown will never be a true centre of the region anymore, and just a local area for downtowners who live there. I still have a problem with reducing a downtown area to that of just a local neighbourhood. I would still like to see our city centre's reclaim the status of the "centre" they should be.


yes, you're right...lots of folks from the burbs come downtown and LOVE it. Sadly, the deadbeats get all the airtime, and happen to run our media outlets.

[DC83]

Funny just this week I proposed sporting life to ecdev as a possible retailer to target for moving into the fed building since it seems mec is blind to this opportunity :-p

*droooools*
Man, I'd be there at least once a week. I love that store. I purposely make the trip all the up to Yng/Eg in TO for the two stores up there. It has everything I need (clothing-wise).
EDIT: and I don't drive... so I take GO downtown TO, then the TTC up there. It's quite the trek... but totally worth it!

And Mike, the mountain isn't a "suburb" at all. It's part of the inner-city. It's full of mixed-residential (low, med, & high income). So just b/c you live at upper wellington/stonechurch doesn't mean you're a wealthy suburbanite. There are actually several co-op housing complexes in that area alone.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I guess we can't say anything positive about downtown without taking a big old dump all over everyone else (the suburbs).

Personally I am attracted to suburban living--it suits me--but that doesn't mean I shun downtown as a destination--growing up we did the vast majority of our Saturday shopping downtown at Jackson Square/Eaton's/Market. You cannot deny however that the "changes" downtown have had an affect (negative) on perceptions of downtown. On numerous visits downtown over the past 10 years I have hassled/heckled by panhandlers...you know what, you can brand me whatever you wish to--it's one thing I cannot stand--I don't care where or when--I just don't like it--and it detracts from my enjoyment of downtown. It never stopped me from going--but it tainted my view--as it did the views of many others. If it doesn't bother you--more power to you--seriously.

Nonetheless, it's happened to me just as often in Toronto--so saying that a trip to the ACC is preferable is ridiculous--the underside of the Gardiner isn't exactly a walk in the park.

[raisethehammer]

I guess we can't say anything positive about downtown without taking a big old dump all over everyone else (the suburbs).

Personally I am attracted to suburban living--it suits me--but that doesn't mean I shun downtown as a destination--growing up we did the vast majority of our Saturday shopping downtown at Jackson Square/Eaton's/Market. You cannot deny however that the "changes" downtown have had an affect (negative) on perceptions of downtown. On numerous visits downtown over the past 10 years I have hassled/heckled by panhandlers...you know what, you can brand me whatever you wish to--it's one thing I cannot stand--I don't care where or when--I just don't like it--and it detracts from my enjoyment of downtown. It never stopped me from going--but it tainted my view--as it did the views of many others. If it doesn't bother you--more power to you--seriously.

Nonetheless, it's happened to me just as often in Toronto--so saying that a trip to the ACC is preferable is ridiculous--the underside of the Gardiner isn't exactly a walk in the park.


well said. this is what perplexes me the most about some Hamiltonians. They don't like being asked for change in front of the Farmers Market or Copps so we'll go to TO??? I've actually felt threatened for my safety by some of the panhandlers in TO. Never here.
I know someone who won't come to downtown Hamilton, but they go to Buffalo all the time.
Pretty amazing if you ask me.

[DC83]

Sadly, I've been desensitized to panhandlers. Living in Hamilton, Toronto, and Montréal I've learned how to ignore them.
I've never encountered an aggressive panhandler in either city, or any city I've visited. So I guess I'm lucky??

I grew up and spent my first 20 years in the suburbs. It didn't suit me. Just like the inner-city wouldn't suit fastcarsfreedom. To each their own.

When I made my point about people I know choosing to go to downtown Toronto for the exact same entertainment rather than downtown Hamilton, I was only using people I know as an example. I know it's not EVERYONE in the suburbs, just people I know. So I didn't mean to dis any suburbanites.
Infact, I happen to really like the Heritage Green hood where I grew up (EXCEPT the Mud/Paramount intersection... there are accidents there weekly).

But this forum is about bringing big business (back) downtown after years of abandonment.

As a suburbanite, would you be more prone to shopping back downtown if Winners, The Bay, Zellers, Homesense or even *wishes really hard* Sporting Life were to open?

[Berklon]

I get approached by panhandlers in Toronto twice a day almost every single day. It happens in my 5 minute walk from Union Station to work, or from work to Union Station (whether I walk outside or use the underground path).

It happens to all the GO commuters and many of them are from the Hamilton/Burlington area. Some of these panhandlers are down-right scarey too, yet it doesn't phase these commuters as they just ignore them. If they can handle these characters in Toronto, then downtown Hamilton shouldn't be a problem.

[fastcarsfreedom]

It's tough to say if I would be more attracted downtown if those retailers were downtown--but it would give some incentive to go downtown. My folks were stalwart downtown shoppers--when I was a kid we were down there every Saturday for the day--and there were multiple choices. Slowly but surely that all fell away. Of course, I no longer live in the area--but I know in the folks' case they held out for quite a few years--but once Eaton's was gone there were simply too few options to meet their needs. The market probably still pulls them in once-in-a-while, but that's it. For them it was simply a case of downtown no longer being able to meet their specific needs (not making judgements about others)--it wasn't strictly about convenience or the need to pay for parking.

Getting back to what you said DC83--I suppose in my case I would say having some more retail choice downtown would get downtown 'back on the list' of options.

I remember the days of doing all the Christmas shopping downtown--do any of you remember a Saturday at Jackson Square in the 80s..? It was always packed...it saddens me quite a bit to have witnessed the decline.

[miketoronto]

Open those stores mentioned could help, but would probably not do much to attract people from the suburbs, unless the downtown stores are flagship stores and offer better selection then the suburbs. And even then, only some suburbanites will come down for that. Overall though downtown has got to offer the best selection and stores to attract people from the burbs.

Lets be honest, downtown stores killed themselves off, by opening branch stores in the suburbs. Why are the inner city shopping areas like Westdale popular and attract suburbanites? Because it offers something different then the burbs.
Why does South Side Pittsburgh bustle with people on a Saturday, while across the river, downtown is half dead? Because the South Side offers something different then the mall.

Downtowns as I said killed themselves, because the very stores that made downtown a destination opened branch stores, and killed the difference and unique factor.

I am not saying downtown should not have chains. Downtowns need a mix of everything, just like before.

But the biggest factor in our downtowns decline is the stores themselves for opening so many branches.

I think that is why you see dead downtowns, yet vibrant streetside retail shopping just outside of many of our downtowns.

Even in Winnipeg you see that. Downtown is declining as a shopping destination, because all the stores that made it famous opened branches in the burbs. Yet Osborne Village 5min away is a regional shopping district, because its stores offer something different.

In Hamilton and Winnipeg's case, the downtown was canablized by suburban malls opened to close to downtown and in not a large populated market.
I just did a quick look at Winnipeg, and found that all their major suburban malls are located less then 10KM from downtown. Infact all three of them are located within a 10min drive on local roads from downtown. And then people wonder why downtown is dead.

Same goes for Hamilton. Do you really think Hamilton needed Centre Mall, Limeridge, and Eastgate? These malls did not open to serve new markets. They opened to divert people already shopping downtown to their malls.
That is a major reason for downtown Hamilton's decline.

Same with London, Ontario. What the hell does a city that size need three suburban malls plus a downtown mall? Then they wonder why downtown is half dead? Well its because you built to many malls.

For example, the city my dad comes from in Italy, is about the size of Hamilton with about 340,000 people in the inner city, and a couple hundred thousand in the towns surrounding the city(which are not really suburbs like we have here, but towns that are centuries old). However they only have one major shopping area, and that is downtown. The towns have little downtowns of their own, but major shopping is in the city. They don't have regional malls in every corner of the region. Infact I think they have one mall that was just built a while ago as an attraction to show they are as up to date as the "Americans", but the mall is tiny and does not offer the selection of downtown.

So other then that, its all central. For downtown to become the centre again, people have to want it to be the centre, and stop decentralizing everything.

This is Via Sparano in downtown Bari, the city my dad comes from in Italy, that is about the size of Hamilton. This street does have chain stores, and unique stores. But even the chain stores will not be found anywhere else in the metro region for the most part. So even if you want the chains you gotta come down here. It is an amazing street, and my mom just loved it when they went there. It is closed to cars.
http://static1.bareka.com/photos/medium/47424/sparano-palazzo-mincuzzi.jpg
Photo Courtesy of www.panoramio.com

This is the Italian Department store, that would be like their version of The Bay. This is the store in Bari. Even in the big cities like Rome, they only have one or two stores, and they are in the centre of the city. They don't have branches every 10 blocks like North American stores, with our malls.
http://static3.bareka.com/photos/medium/47466/sparano-palazzo-rinascente.jpg
Photo Courtesy of www.panoramio.com

[flar]

^^You could include Burlington Mall and Mapleview Centre plus all the other big box stuff in Burlington, which are also within 10km of Downtown Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

wow. awesome!
the folks in Italy should just keep things as they are. "keeping up with the Americans" is the last thing they need to do.
I think you're bang on Mike.
Downtown should have a mixture of everything...even people I know in Hamilton who remember the great downtown we once had always talk on and on about the big department stores AND the little local places like the Chicken Roost, the Majestic etc.... downtown can and should be that again.
In fact, I think we've already got a great batch of little, unique shops and eateries that can't be matched anywhere outside of downtown TO...we just don't have the big department stores to lure people from all over.

[raisethehammer]

^^You could include Burlington Mall and Mapleview Centre plus all the other big box stuff in Burlington, which are also within 10km of Downtown Hamilton.

not to mention Meadowlands (5 minutes from King/Dundurn), Clappisons, Queenston Rd, Upper James etc.... it's amazing that downtown Hamilton has the great variety of restaurants, clubs, cafes and shops that it has considering it is literally being surrounded by big boxes and malls.

[SteelTown]

So I had a brief moment with my friend who works at Best Buy at Burlington today and definitely the Future Shop at Meadowlands will be a Best Buy but the interesting part was that she said Best Buy is still determining another Best Buy location in Hamilton, they want two stores in Hamilton.

She said "downtown" and trust me this girl is suburbanite at heart so when she said "downtown" it doesn't roll off her tongue, meaning she heard it from the managers. So yea Best Buy is looking at the downtown core area, possibly a flagship store.

Next time I see her which is this Wednesday, I'm using her employee discount to get a discount on Wii :D haha, I'll pull out some more information.

[ihateittoo]

A lot of people have different conceptions of downtown - I know a lot of people from the mountain that consider whole of the lower city as "downtown".

Is it not possible that Best Buy would be going in to the Centre Mall redevelopment?

[SteelTown]

Could be, I used to call the lower end of Hamilton as in downtown too, cause literally it's down the Mountain.

But I'll check in with her, before she said East End and that got me thinking Centre Mall but now she's more direct and said downtown. Maybe Best Buy got the call from the City to open up a store.

[DC83]

A lot of people have different conceptions of downtown - I know a lot of people from the mountain that consider whole of the lower city as "downtown".

Is it not possible that Best Buy would be going in to the Centre Mall redevelopment?

Ya, ppl from Burlington especially. Hell, they consider downtown Toronto as their "downtown".

Inner-city to most suburbanites IS "downtown". I'm thinking she's referring to Centre Mall.
Could this be the "destination store" they're referring to?

[raisethehammer]

yea, most suburban folks I know call anything they deem dirty, or run down to be downtown. Hess Village is 'Hess', Locke is 'Locke', Westdale is 'Westdale'.
Kenilworth and Barton is 'downtown'.
King and Gage is 'downtown'.
Anywhere where there was a shooting or robbery is 'downtown' etc....

[flar]

yea, most suburban folks I know call anything they deem dirty, or run down to be downtown. Hess Village is 'Hess', Locke is 'Locke', Westdale is 'Westdale'.
Kenilworth and Barton is 'downtown'.
King and Gage is 'downtown'.
Anywhere where there was a shooting or robbery is 'downtown' etc....

so true

[miketoronto]

What downtown Hamilton needs is the following.(note this is just my idea if I were to open a store. The name is my last name :) )

BINETTI'S JAMES STREET
New store opening in the historic Lister Block, occupying the first three floors of the historic building.

BINETTI'S WILL BRING THE BASICS THAT DOWNTOWNERS NEED, AS WELL AS A TOUCH OF UNIQUESS TO ATTRACT REGION WIDE SHOPPERS. LETS TAKE A TOUR.



FOOD HALL, FIRST FLOOR
The Food Hall will feature a selection of all the basic food items downtown residents and workers need, as well as a selection of unique products that make food shopping a delight and an attraction. Aside from the basic food items, focus will be put on locally Ontario made and grown food. Highlight, will be the Bakery department, which will feature pasteries and breads made from 20 of the most popular bakeries in Hamilton, Toronto, and surrounding areas, giving you the best selection of the best pasteries and breads in one area. Binetti's will also partner with the Hamilton Farmers Market to make a downtown market district, with the best food selection in Hamilton.
http://www.paintthis.com.au/skillsEDIT/clientuploads/8/PICT1209.JPG
Courtesy www.paintthis.com.au

Example of how the Food Hall level could look along James Street.
http://www.food-excellence.com/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_7796/2~Entrance.jpg
Courtesy www.food-excellence.com

WOMENSWEAR, SECOND FLOOR AND PARTS OF FIRST FLOOR
The Womenswear department will feature a selection of casual and dressy clothing. A major focus will be on clothing from local Hamilton and Ontario designers. Price points will vary from reasonable to high end, with a focus on reasonable prices for middle class residents.

COSMETICS AND JEWLERY, FIRST FLOOR
Will feature top brands with a focus as well on local creations.



MENSWEAR, THIRD FLOOR, AND PARTS OF FIRST FLOOR
The Menswear department will feature a selection of casual and dressy clothing. A major focus will be on clothing from local Hamilton and Ontario designers. Price points will vary from reasonable to high end, with a focus on reasonable prices for middle class residents.


THE HAMILTON SHOP, FIRST FLOOR
The store will feature a special section celebrating Hamilton. Come here for Hamilton themed t-shirts and other gifts. Focus will be on unique designs, and not tourist trap designs.


A view of what the store in the Lister Block could look like.
http://www.simons.ca/DocumentLibrary/UploadedContents/Store/Photo/popupvieuxquebec_0.jpg
Coutesy Simons.ca

[raisethehammer]

frig, you're killing me Mike!
I'm guessing we'll never see something like that here...awesome idea though!

By the way, downtown renewal should pull out ALL the stops to get Simons to locate their first English-Canada store in downtown Hamilton. The place rocks.

yup, so much could be done with Lister...sadly, we're going to see it become filled with little half-walled office cubicles and post-it-notes everywhere.

[DC83]

OMG I LOVE Simons!! It's prolly my favourite "chain" store in Montréal. Are there even any in English Canada at all?

I'll have to email them telling them to locate downtown Hamilton! hahah

[beanmedic]

I got really excited about the bakery department. We need this.

[raisethehammer]

I emailed them once a couple years back.
I don't think there are any in English Canada. Too bad. It kicks the crap out of Sears and the Bay.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Nonetheless it's privately held by an anglo family--and their expansion out of Quebec City and into Montreal has been successful--they're a great tenant in the late Simpsons store on Ste. Catherine Street. Rumors of them stretching out into Ontario have persisted for awhile. They may be a little gunshy from the failure of Les Ailes de la Mode to break into Ontario--they ventured out into the Bayshore Center in suburban Ottawa--and didn't even last 2 years.

[miketoronto]

Do not even tell SIMONS to move to Ontario. I actually emailed them and said I loved shopping at their store in Montreal and to focus on keeping the stores they have so great, and not expanding to much and making it just another GAP style place.

I really do not want them to expand to English Canada as I said. When I go to Quebec it is a treat to go to SIMONS. I don't like every single city having all the same stores, etc. So I say keep SIMONS a Quebec thing. Hell untill like 6 years ago, they did not even have any stores outside of Quebec City.

I really think their success is that they don't have to many stores, and they put energy into keeping those stores great, and offer a unique product. If they become a massive chain, it will lose its luster, and will just become to big.

So I say keep it in Quebec. If you really want something, go to their website, phone them up and order it, and they will ship it to Ontario for free. I have done it a number of times, and I am always impressed with their service even over the phone.

So who can bankroll my store idea for Hamilton :)

BINETTI'S ON JAMES
I think it sounds great to.
Notice I did not make it a full department store, but just a couple departments.

[chris k]

Instead off attracting Quebec stores into "english" Canada, how about attracting some US chains into downtown only and stealing some of the people hopping the border to go shopping and get them downtown. We could not only make it a destination for Hamiltonians that head south but it would also appeal to the Toronto market and essentially bring more outsiders downtown and they will see the "not so bad" side of Hamilton and spread the news aswell as change their perceptions. Also it would be much more conveniant for them as it is only half the drive and accesible by various forms of transportation, not just by car (as the states is). Doing something like this would bring hordes of people back downtown, living and visiting.:cheers:

[fastcarsfreedom]

Great idea Chris K, except they'll do 4X the sales per square foot at Lime Ridge. Eddie Bauer and The Gap both made their initial forays into Hamilton by opening int he Eaton Center...both went to Lime Ridge the moment their leases were up. Retail follows the $, not vice versa. Your idea is good in principle--I'm not going all negative on you--but you have to look at it realistically. There are more people living downtown now, which is great--and more on the way--getting retailers in to service those residents' needs first will be a great start. That, and of course, getting Yale off it's arse.

[markbarbera]

Bit of revisionist history going on in that last post. The Gap opened in Lime Ridge during the same time period that they opened their Eaton Centre location, with both open at the same time for several years. The recession in the late 80's/early 90's took a much heavier toll downtown than up on the hill. However, the recession's effect on retail was not limited to downtown as practically every regional shopping centre went through a major tenant upheaval during the 90's. Unfortunately, council inaction allowed the downtown deterioration to protract, leaving the downtown area among the last affected districts to start recovery.

Retailers are redisovering the business potential downtown. I was in Jackson square on Saturday and was amazed at the amount of people out and about, both in the mall and along King East. Independant retailers are leading the renaissance, and major retailers will follow them to the core shortly thereafter.

If council wanted to aid the downtowen revitalization, they would reevaluate the taxation level on that Lime Ridge property, as well as outlying big box outlets. A lot of open land wasted on free parking needs to be taxed at a much higher rate so to make a more even playing field for retail citywide, especially when you consider the servicing costs related developments with vast expanses of paved surface parking.

[raisethehammer]

yea, I was downtown for the tree lighting on Friday and again on Saturday...I was amazed at the volume of people in Jackson and on King. I think you're right - retailers will discover this very shortly. It's just waiting to boom.

[fastcarsfreedom]

The revisionist history was not intentional. In fact, The Gap operated at Jackson Square YEARS ago--early 1980s, before much of the Canadian operation was closed--only to return after a significant image makeover in the 1990s. In fact, The Gap returned, and opened at HEC--and operated there exclusively well into the 1990s--opening at Lime Ridge thereafter when the space became available for it's store there. Third came The Gap at Mapleview--before the HEC store was finally closed. Eddie Bauer was a straight-up relocation from HEC to Lime Ridge.

I agree downtown has loads of potential--as does Jackson Square. It will just take many years for some retailers to "get over" the fact that they left the property in the past. In truth, the retail upheavels of the 1990s did hurt Jackson Square exponentially more than any other local shopping centre (the city had nothing to do with it--simple demographics did)--but as I've said in the past, Yale's "take it or leave it" attitude toward it's retail tenants made the problem worse than it ever needed to be.

[raisethehammer]

The revisionist history was not intentional. In fact, The Gap operated at Jackson Square YEARS ago--early 1980s, before much of the Canadian operation was closed--only to return after a significant image makeover in the 1990s. In fact, The Gap returned, and opened at HEC--and operated there exclusively well into the 1990s--opening at Lime Ridge thereafter when the space became available for it's store there. Third came The Gap at Mapleview--before the HEC store was finally closed. Eddie Bauer was a straight-up relocation from HEC to Lime Ridge.

I agree downtown has loads of potential--as does Jackson Square. It will just take many years for some retailers to "get over" the fact that they left the property in the past. In truth, the retail upheavels of the 1990s did hurt Jackson Square exponentially more than any other local shopping centre (the city had nothing to do with it--simple demographics did)--but as I've said in the past, Yale's "take it or leave it" attitude toward it's retail tenants made the problem worse than it ever needed to be.


this is a great point about retailers who already left.
It's one thing for a new retailer to come in for the first time, but it will take much longer for one of these retailers who left to return. they'd have to see the place busting and other businesses beating down the doors to get in before they come back for round 2.

[miketoronto]

Forget the American store idea :) First, 90% of the stores in Canadian malls are American now. Going across the border is not some big different culture and shopping experience anymore. Limeridge is already a carbon copy of most malls in the USA.

Second, why must all cities be carbon copies of each other? Making Hamilton full of American places, will not revive the city.
You have to make it "Hamilton".

To be honest, look at MACY'S for example. Now that they own most of the department stores in the USA, some stores are having problems. One of the reasons for this is people on vacation have no need to visit a store they have in their own city.

It is time to nuture homegrown Canadian talent.

Canada use to be such a proud place for shopping institutions. We gotta start supporting our own again, and that includes in downtown Hamilton.

[Goldfinger]

Forget the American store idea :) First, 90% of the stores in Canadian malls are American now. Going across the border is not some big different culture and shopping experience anymore. Limeridge is already a carbon copy of most malls in the USA.



I disagree, when I go to places like NYC or even Florida there are many different chain stores especially chain department stores with tons more selection and different merchandise than we have here. Stores like the GAP and H&M are very similar wherever you go because they are the fast food of retail. I like US retail because I can always get something different.

Places like Lord & Taylor, Nordstrom, Saks, Bloomingdale's, Macy's, Neiman Marcus, Kaufman's, Brooks Brothers, Simms, Burlington Coat Factory etc. are truly special and unique.

[DC83]

^^ Ya, there are tons of stores in the States we don't have here.
Adding a store like Abercrombie & Fitch or Holister in Limeridge or Centre Mall would make it a destination. Currently the only A&F or Holister strs are in Toronto (E.C. & Sherway Gdns).
so rather than people in St Catharines driving allll the way to Toronto, or going thru the hassle of border crossing, they can come to Hamilton (Limeridge, Centre, Jackson) and spend their disposible income HERE rather than Toronto. Adding these stores downtown Hamilton = adding much needed retail $$$s to our downtown retail economy.

So Mike, even though they are EVERYWHERE in the States, they are almost non-existant here making it a destination store. Stores which draw ppl to them... like me when I go to TO.

[chris k]

So Mike, even though they are EVERYWHERE in the States, they are almost non-existant here making it a destination store. Stores which draw ppl to them... like me when I go to TO.

Thats exactly what i mean when i said bring stores that arent available in this area so we could potentially attract people from other cities to unload their cash here. It maked parfect sense and at the same time, help revitalise and bring people downtown.


Going across the border is not some big different culture and shopping experience anymore

I disagree because many people still go over the border to shop. For what, things that are here? No, they have different merchandise and stores aswell as great deals, which is something that could easily be incorporated into downtown hamilton.

[miketoronto]

They go across the border for the cheap outlet stores that sell the same stuff we have here.

I travel to the US alot, and out of huge shopping malls that I have been in, there are maybe 4 stores I can't find at a mall in Toronto.

I went to Chicago for example, and bought one thing on Michigan Ave. All the stores there were carbon copies of ones I can find in Toronto for the most part. Or they were way to expensive chains you can find on Bloor Street :)

Even MACY'S is basically a carbon copy of The Bay. Marshall Fields use to have different merchandise and I enjoyed shopping in there. But MACY'S had all the same stuff as The Bay, when I was there last at the Detroit Store.

The point is not about destination stores that attract out of towners. Its about making downtown a place people go to from within your own city to.
You have to make downtown a great place without relying on tourists.

Cincinatti has payed destination stores to open downtown, and it had hardly done anything to make downtown more vibrant. All that ever happens is the city is left on the hook of having to pay more subsidy to the stores to renovate, or they threaten to flee to the suburbs where all the action is.

[miketoronto]

You buys might find this little newsclip interesting. Just click on the link and play the video. Its about downtown shopping in the other Steeltown.


http://kdka.com/topstories/tradition.shopping.downtown.2.594459.html

[LordMandeep]

The point is not about destination stores that attract out of towners. Its about making downtown a place people go to from within your own city to.
You have to make downtown a great place without relying on tourists.

people always dismiss your comments, but that was a really solid important point...

[chris k]

Not only would attracting outside retail bring tourists down but would help people in Hamilton realize that downtown can once again be the place to be.
These stores would attract people to visit and even live downtown because of the great amenities.
It would also improve the lives of those who already live downtown because who wouldn't want more retail if you lived there?
I agree with your point but i don't see how attracting foreign retailers would not help acheive this for downtwon?
:cheers:

[fastcarsfreedom]

I will comment on macy*s only because it raises a valuable point that "touches" the issue of downtown retail--in terms of options and variety. Your point is valid miketoronto--most of the nameplates that Federated switched over to macy*s (that includes Kaufmann's...for whoever mentioned that chain) have suffered--partly because people miss their "hometown" stores--and partly because Federated drastically repositioned some stores--as you mentioned Marshall Field's was decidedly upper-middle--and is now full of the same schlock (and shopping carts) that macy*s tries to sell everywhere else.

I mention this because one of the things that is tough for Hamilton to overcome is the pure and simple lack of options when it comes to attracting retail downtown. The U.S. market continues to sustain a wide array of full-line retailers--whereas in Canada we are now down to The Bay and Sears--doesn't matter where you go in this country (except Quebec)--every mall will look the same--same inline stores, same anchors. Nearby in the Detroit area (ignoring the lack of downtown retail there)--I could rattle off a list of department stores operating in the area--including Macy's, Sears, Penney, Kohls, Von Maur, Nordstrom, Parisian, Younkers, Elder-Beerman, Saks, Lord & Taylor and Neiman-Marcus. If you look to Pittsburgh as an example--they had an array of operators to approach when they were working to attract more stores downtown...(sadly, Lord & Taylor left Pittsburgh after butchering the interior of a heritage building when the store was built). Another example to look at would be Indianapolis. Think downtown malls are a dead idea? Circle Center in Indianapolis has thrived since opening, and both anchors built with it (Carson Pirie Scott and Nordstrom) are thriving--with Carson's adding space to it's store this year. So while Indy sure benefits from the large number of retailers in the U.S. that are out there to be courted--it's experience with Circle Center should prove that downtown retail--and even downtown malls--can still work.

[Goldfinger]

The U.S. market continues to sustain a wide array of full-line retailers--whereas in Canada we are now down to The Bay and Sears--doesn't matter where you go in this country (except Quebec)--every mall will look the same--same inline stores, same anchors.

Yes, exactly my point. This is a reality because there are only a handfull of major retail property operators in Canada. All the malls in Canada are anchored with the same tenants because those major tenants have good relations with Cadillac Fairview, Smartcentres, etc. When these guys are in the planning stages of a new development, the first clients they pitch space to are Walmart, Hudson's Bay, and the parent companies of small stores like Garbage Clothing, Le Crapeau, etc. They do this because that's all they know, and it becomes routine. A tenant like Hudsons Bay or Sears can provide a AAA long term covenant but will insist that their competion be limited as a condition. Mall operators don't care about quality, they want security and protection of cash flow and investment. The price per square foot will be the same for Sears or Macy's, so they figure, why take the risk? Do what's easier.

It's going to be a big risk to try and lure a large and unproven US anchor like Macy's and shut out the Bay. Risk is something Canadian business tends to avoid not because of complexity but because of fear.