[SteelTown]

Best face forward
What do investors see in our downtown? Does the core attract or repel?

BY WADE HEMSWORTH
Hamilton Spectator

Through the objective eyes of outside business people, Hamilton is two places at the same time.

One is a blighted place of neglect and decay. The other is place of unrealized opportunity and potential.

Perceptions count. Hard facts such as square-foot costs for buildings are critical in deciding where to invest, but businesses must also consider what customers, employees — and bankers — will think when they announce they’re planning to set up in a new place.

When it comes to perception, it seems Hamilton could use a good scrubbing — quite literally.

Last month, Toronto developer Harry Stinson, sometimes called that city’s “Condo King,” came to Hamilton for a stroll around downtown. He ended up walking for nearly six hours — from the bay to the foot of the escarpment, from Wellington Street to Hess Village — fascinated, as he tried to figure out what was wrong and what was right.

Stinson had come at the invitation of Hamilton architect John Mokrycke, who was wanting to talk to him about speaking at an industry function.

Stinson’s most recent project, the redevelopment of a bank building and adjoining condo-hotel tower at King and Yonge streets in downtown Toronto, is wrapped up in receivership and legal snarls. Stinson has been in the news for months over his public battles with David Mirvish, backer of the 1 King West project.

But his trip to Hamilton left him eager to return and test the waters for working here, especially downtown, where a checkerboard of neglected and underused buildings and empty lots, dotted with pockets of success and creativity — he noted King William Street as one — left him intrigued, and somewhat puzzled.

“It’s a far more interesting city than people think,” he said. “It’s got a lot of potential. It’s got a lot of nice features, but I don’t know — it seemed sort of, despondent, if I can put it that way. It’s like people are resigned to it. I thought the downtown core was a bit scary, in the sense that there really was no visible effort by anybody to do anything.”

Stinson thinks the basic structure of downtown, especially King Street from Catharine to Bay streets, is a template for village-style urban living, with a human scale, pleasing vistas, a good helping of history and a potentially productive balance of commercial, office and living spaces.

But the reality of today’s downtown is dirty, dark and forbidding, he said, and it will take courage to mine the potential there. “If you look at the city, it’s like a giant doughnut. The perimeter, which isn’t that far away, is pretty conventional and stable. Then you hit the core, and it’s like you go through a time warp. There’s this malaise. You know how when you’re swimming in the lake and you hit these little cold patches? It’s like you walk into Hamilton and all of a sudden you hit this giant cold patch, and it’s the downtown core.”

Before he goes to City Hall to ask what planning support he might expect, he plans to meet informally with community leaders to test their will to create change. He will need all the support he can get, he said, before he even thinks of bringing lenders downtown and asking for their backing.

But if he and others like him can get broad support, he said, downtown could become a pleasant place to live, work, eat and shop, especially with what he describes as the inevitable westward migration from overcrowded and overpriced Toronto. Like so many, Stinson says the timing and the effect of that migration will depend on establishing all-day, full GO train service to downtown Hamilton.

Ron Adams sees much the same double edge. He has spent half a century in the business of scouting, selecting and leasing commercial sites in Canada.

Now based in Burlington, Adams describes his job as “real estate counsel.”

His experience includes finding the site and helping to develop the White Oaks Mall in London, Ont., selecting sites for seven Holiday Inns across the province, finding sites for 50 Goodyear tire stores across Canada and participating in redevelopment of the Historic Properties in downtown Halifax.

Like Stinson, he sees potential, though he believes the richest area for development is along its highway corridors, especially the industrial lands between The Spectator building near Main and Frid streets and the nascent McMaster Innovation Park at Longwood Road and Aberdeen Avenue.

Like Stinson, he says the potential is obscured as Hamilton has failed to correct old perceptions, which it could easily rectify by creating welcoming entrances, especially where Highway 403 joins Aberdeen Avenue and Main Street — which he refers to as Hamilton’s front door. It would only take a little, he said, to change perceptions a lot.

“Hamilton, it seems to me, is a hell of a lot more than the image of the steel plants that you see from the QEW, but I think that image still lives. The image people have of an area is what they get from a car window or a bus when they’re driving by.”

[SteelTown]

'Condo King' to speak at United Way fundraiser

The Hamilton Spectator
(Nov 20, 2007)

"I thought (Hamilton's) downtown core was a bit scary, in the sense that there really was no visible effort by anybody to do anything."

Toronto's "Condo King," Harry Stinson, doesn't mince words. Nor does he hide his firm belief that downtown Hamilton has good bones in its buildings and lots of potential.

He's coming to town tonight, as the first in the occasional Acclamation Speaker Series, organized as a fundraiser for the United Way of Burlington and Greater Hamilton.

Darrel Skidmore, the United Way's CEO, is delighted and says the evening is also an excellent opportunity to raise the agency's profile.

The event will be held at the Acclamation Bar and Grill, 191 James St. N., from 5:30 to 8:30 p.m.

Tickets are $60 each. Contact Acclamation at 905-523-7269.

Stinson is president of Stinson Properties Inc. His most recent project in Toronto was the development of a bank building and adjoining condo-hotel tower at King and Yonge streets that has become wrapped up in receivership and legal snarls.

[coalminecanary]

I agree about the aberdeen exit. it needs to be really dressed up. However I think that crreating aberdeen as a "Gateway" to the city is part of the inno park plan. Maybe not the site plan, but mcmaster as well as the architects i think have an assumption that the city should/will fix that area up so that it gives a "wow" factor when driving in to hamilton

I attended the seminar by the architects for inno park a couple years ago (it was awesome by the way). The head architect said that in his opinion, the drive in to hamilton on the 403 is the most beautiful approach to a city in all of canada... i think he's right. coming from toronto, you pass cootes and the high level bridge, the cathedral... it's awesome. coming from the west you descend the escarpment with an aerial view of the entire city. pretty amazing when you think of it

then the aberdeen exit is kinda like this throwaway afterthought of a ramp, and it spits you out into an industrial wasteland. or you exit at main east and are immediately thrown into the fray where you have to navigate 6 lanes of one way high speed traffic barreling down on your ass. it sucks.

it would be awesome if aberdeen was actually treated as the main entrance to the city. lots of potential there to dress it up...

[raisethehammer]

interesting stuff here.
What is Stinson up to?? We know the guy is hurting financially...would he, by chance, be eyeing Hamilton for a possible project in an effort to start making some coin again??
could a guy like him even make money in a city like this?? I don't know much about him other than his attempt to 'trump Trump' in TO, and then got into receivership trouble etc....
suddenly the guy seems to be keen on making a name for himself in the Hammer.

[SteelTown]

Stinson needs to make money especially with court cases and so on. So he's probably looking at Hamilton as a great way to make a good profit. It's cheap to build at Hamilton compared to the GTA and he'll probably sell his units for his asking price and therefore made more money than he would in the GTA.

I see the whole area from Longwood to Cooste Dr in West Hamilton becoming a hot spot for residential development because it has easy access to the 403 and the closest to the GTA.

[raisethehammer]

I met a friend for coffee tonight at Acclamation and he was in there giving his speech.

[SteelTown]

Fresh vision for the city of steel
'Condo King' sees potential behind bad designs, brick walls; Hamilton Next

http://www.thespec.com/images/assets/392359_3.JPG
Toronto developer Harry Stinson has been walking around Hamilton. There's a lot of potential here, he says. Don't hide your light, he says of Hamiltonians. Be confident, and where it's dark (old Eaton Centre), open it to the light.

November 21, 2007
John Burman
The Hamilton Spectator

Thoughts on Hamilton from Toronto developer Harry "The Condo King" Stinson:

* Hamilton's future lies in intellectual property, not steel.

* Steel will not be here forever. The land Dofasco and U.S. Steel sit on will always be in Hamilton and it has great value. The death of steel could be a new beginning.

Stinson was brought to Hamilton last night by architect John Mockryke, president of Stinson Properties Inc., to address a fundraiser for the Burlington and Greater Hamilton United Way

His most recent project in Toronto was the development of a former bank building and adjoining condo-hotel tower at King and Yonge streets which has gone into receivership amid legal wrangling with investors that had Stinson musing about leaving Canada for the United States.

But Stinson -- who founded the Groaning Board restaurant in Toronto, picked up kids in red hearses for birthday parties at his Mad Hatter party warehouse, got into real estate and then development -- instead began walking around downtown Hamilton.

"I didn't understand why my brother moved here three years ago," he said.

Now he's looking at houses himself.

Between snatches of Monty Python skits and deadpan impressions of Donald Trump, Stinson offered short, sharp snapshots of Hamilton:

* * *

"We are intrigued by the potential of the city, the opportunities to do something and the opportunity to make a difference."

* * *

"If the steel companies close down, it could be the birth of the city. I suspect those companies bought Hamilton steel companies to shut them down, but the land is fixable."

* * *

A handful of families control much of the downtown property with potential.

They are waiting to make a lot of money, but will not make a dime more if redevelopment isn't given a chance to begin.

* * *

Individually, Hamiltonians are optimistic about the future of the city and the downtown.

Collectively they shrug and say, "Oh well."

* * *

Lloyd D. Jackson Square and the Eaton Centre (now Hamilton City Centre) didn't kill the downtown core.

"It's just a badly designed mall that needs to be opened up. Do that and these streets will fill up with people.

* * *

If you believe in your community, invest in it. Hamilton needs a development fund so the money is ready when someone finally decides to sell a piece of property with great potential to start a renaissance. Until then everything seems "totally inert."

* * *

"I just keep walking around. The right property will come along. I believe the Connaught Hotel could be that property which starts things off. I was interested in doing something there before."

* * *

The Connaught sits in "a perfect civic square."

* * *

The Pigott Building (condos) is dark. "It needs lights. It doesn't look like anyone's there. LED lights are cheap."

* * *

The Hamilton City Centre: "It's dead. Needs windows. All you see are hundreds of feet of buff brick walls. It looks like a dentist got into the development business."

* * *

People want interesting ideas. they will buy them and live in them.

* * *

Hamilton is plagued with a "'Why try?' feeling."

[matt602]

As much as I feel he is toying with Hamilton just because he's having problems in Toronto, he really is correct on a lot of his thoughts and suggestions for the city.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see if he puts his money where his mouth is and helps out the situation here personally.

[raisethehammer]

yup, he is bang on in his assessment of the Hammer.
I didn't know his brother moved here....i'm sure this guy has good connections with banks, developers etc.... he very well might try to do a few projects here in order to help himself financially.
Heck, look at the other guys developing downtown right now - one group alleged to be associated with the mob, another couple with criminal backgrounds, others who got into financial messes just like Stinson, another guy raping girls in Hess.
Safe to say this industry doesn't have a whole lot of wholesome characters (at least in the Hammer).
Stinson would be a nice change since he's done bigger and better things than these other guys in the city. He knows how to design/build something that would be completely new and unique to the Hammer (no more City View Terrace or Chateau Royale 80's condos)

[DC83]

I wish Chateau Royale was done more 80's structure-wise.
Their walls are figgin paper thin... I wldn't be surprised if the units were seperated by drywall alone.
My bldg's walls are like a half foot thick and is pure cement! I've NEVER heard any noise from any of my neighbours. My friend in CR, however, gets noise complaints a lot.

I dunno about this Stinson guy... I'm very hesitant to trust any developer in this city. HOWEVER, if he wanted to take over the Connaught project with financial guarantees, then he'll be my #1 new hero!

[the dude]

ya, there's something about him i don't like but he's better than the rapists and mobsters we've got developing properties in this town today.

[raisethehammer]

heck, Trump is a class-A jerk too. seems to be the norm in this industry.

[DC83]

heck, Trump is a class-A jerk too. seems to be the norm in this industry.

I think you have to be or else people will walk all over you.

Ever watched Brad Lamb on HGTV? OMG he's an a**hole!!!

[SteelTown]

Wonder if Stinson ever thought about building a condo at John and Main, former gas station. Perfect spot for a condo, close to Gore Park and steps away from GO Station. Plus it's at a busy intersection so it'll get the exposure.

[DC83]

Wonder if Stinson ever thought about building a condo at John and Main, former gas station. Perfect spot for a condo, close to Gore Park and steps away from GO Station. Plus it's at a busy intersection so it'll get the exposure.

Plus it's at a super-important transit hub (King, Beeline, all Delewares)...
It'll be even more important once our LRT is built.
That lot is a GOLDMINE!!

[raisethehammer]

he's probably thought about a lot of ideas.
he's so right about Connaught and it's setting in Gore Park.
He'd probably do a great patio out front facing all of Gore Park and surrounding streetscape. we need someone with fresh ideas and vision instead of the tired old 'demolition by neglect' routine we see from LIUNA/HiRise or the outright 'demolition' we see from so many other pea-brained groups in town.
He did an awesome job with 1 King West in TO. One of the few (new) buildings in that city that I admire.

[DC83]

^^ 1KingW is one of my favourite bldgs in TO! It's so sleak n sexy and makes so much sense (re: incorporating old bldgs into new architecture).

Toronto, however, have a by-law protecting all heritage bldgs. Hamilton City Hall doesn't give a crap about heritage anything. Sometimes it seems our Heritage Committee doesn't either.

Our core would have been in MUCH better shape had we kept the majority of lost bldgs: old market at market square, old City Hall, Birks Bldg and the list goes on.

Instead they pretend to incorporate these heritage bldgs and then decide that it's
unsafe for development" b/c it's sat empty for 1.5yrs. Last time I checked, Connaught is still standing (4yrs later)... Lister is still standing (15yrs later), Trebble Hall... and so on...

[miketoronto]

Wonder if Stinson ever thought about building a condo at John and Main, former gas station. Perfect spot for a condo, close to Gore Park and steps away from GO Station. Plus it's at a busy intersection so it'll get the exposure.

Do you really want Stinson developing in Hamilton? There is no doubt that One King West is an amazing building the way it fits into its site, etc.

But Stinson really cheaped out on the details and did not fully think everything through.

I got to stay in One King West in one of the hotel rooms. And while the building is impressive, Stinson did a lousy job in many regards. He left exposed breaker panals in the rooms, the hot tub is shoved in a corner not taking advantage of any views or anything. The lobby is not grand like the old building use to have, and he left lots of details unfinnished, like walls not fully painted, etc. His opening I feel because of these things was very unprofessional. You don't open a hotel when you are still painting the hallways, and have plywood on the floors, etc.
He has good ideas, but does not pull in the details.

[raisethehammer]

Stinson's definitely up to something. He wrote a letter to the Spec today.

[SteelTown]

Hamilton is more than just steel mills

Harry Stinson
The Hamilton Spectator
Toronto
(Nov 26, 2007)

Re: 'Fresh vision for the city of steel; 'Condo King' sees potential behind bad designs, brick walls; Hamilton Next' (Nov. 21)

I understand there has been a substantial -- in some cases, angry -- reaction regarding my comments on the role of the steel industry in Hamilton's future. Please allow me to clarify what I meant.

My intent in commenting on the future of the steel mills was to suggest that Hamilton should not disproportionately rely on the immortality of two major steel mills as the linchpins of the local economy. It is significant to note that health sciences and academic activities are already far larger local employers, with strong growth momentum.

The comparative positive image of nearby Kitchener-Waterloo is significant, although Hamilton itself enjoys a geographically superior location from a transportation perspective as well as a visually appealing landscape.

While steel is certainly important, it should also be noted that one of the best possible "industries" for a contemporary city to encourage is high-density residential accommodation. In addition to the initial benefits of construction employment and residual spinoffs, urban housing brings enormous lasting employment growth in service, retail, and entertainment sectors.

Significantly, communities that are seen as attractive places in which to live also enjoy superior related growth in technology businesses, because people who work in such fields are very sensitive to "quality of life" factors.

In summary, the objective is to achieve a more broadly based economy for Hamilton, in which there is room -- and equal support -- for more than just the steel industry.

Furthermore, the debate itself is healthy for the community. I offered the comments in good faith because I am seriously intrigued by the opportunity to become involved in Hamilton's future.

[raisethehammer]

Take that last sentence and connect it with the paragraph about 'high density residential accommodation'.
I think he's dropping a big hint here.

[SteelTown]

Writing a letter to the editor proves he's reading our local paper, studying the city with his walking tour and learning the ins and outs of the city.

[raisethehammer]

you're right Steeltown. It's one thing to show up and speak at Acclamation when you're supporiting the United Way. It's a different story to write letters on your own accord.

[DC83]

Writing a letter to the editor proves he's reading our local paper, studying the city with his walking tour and learning the ins and outs of the city.

Yikes... that's scary! Let's hope he's not watching CHCH Action News!! haha

I think the only good thing that could come out of his current interest in Hamilton would be fellow developpers thiking, "Well if HE'S interested... why aren't WE?"... which would hopefully *crosses fingers* open a floodgate of Toronto (aka efficient) developpers!

[raisethehammer]

I'm not sure that we'd see that happen until he actually builds something. If he does, and if it's successful, then watch out.
Hamilton's builders can just step the heck out of the way and allow the guys from TO (who actually know what they're doing in urban projects) to revitalize this city.
This is big news IMO.
Remember, this guy was a sort of cult hero in TO until his financial troubles.
People loved this quirky, little guy standing up to Trump and actually getting something built.
Despite his troubles, he's still very well connected in TO.

[SteelTown]

By now he probably know all the average income of certain areas he's interested, know the bylaws of certain areas (height), knows his range of asking price, etc.

[flar]

Here's what I'd do in Hamilton if I were a greedy developer. I'd build high density low income housing while buying up cheap victorian houses, concentrating on certain streets. Then once all the low income people were moved out of the victorian houses and into slab apartments I'd have a gentrification field day.

[vid]

Here's what I'd do in Hamilton if I were a greedy developer. I'd build high density low income housing while buying up cheap victorian houses, concentrating on certain streets. Then once all the low income people were moved out of the victorian houses and into slab apartments I'd have a gentrification field day.

Shoving poor people into high density homogeneous (as in all poor) environments breeds crime. Sure, you'd have a nice street with gentrified Victorian homes, but crime rates will increase. Something people generally look at before moving to a city, no?

[flar]

^^I know it's a recipe for disaster, I'm just thinking about what someone who only cares about money might do.

[DC83]

^^ Amen!

This city has actually done a pretty good job w/ integrating different "classes" with eachother... even in the suburbs.
I know I talk about upper stoney creek (aka Heritage Green) a lot, but this area has a lot of big rich houses, big normal houses, medium income townhouses, and low-income co-op housing. And it works very well.
That WOULD make a lot of moeny... but I don't think the city would allow it to happen.

Toronto created ghettos in it's past: St Jamestown, Regent Park, etc... and all it did was create crime-zones. Hamilton doesn't really have any (with the slight exception of the townhouse complex at JamesNorth & Strathcan. But I don't think the North End's problems are primarly due to this particular housing block.

[matt602]

Don't forget Oriole Crescent (literally my backyard), Congress, Kenora and Granville in the East end. A lot of Toronto's "thugs" have friends in these areas and "visit" often. What do they all have in common? Higher density low income housing.

[SteelTown]

I heard a rumour that a wealthy investor just bought that house on Queen St, was on the market for like $4 million. I saw the sold sign go up this week. Perhaps Stinson is moving here?

[raisethehammer]

yea, I noticed that house had sold.
Pretty noisy street though.

Check out todays Spec. According to architect John Mocryke, Stinson is working on FOUR projects downtown!!

[SteelTown]

When Harry met Hamilton

The Talk
Suzanne Bourret
The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 13, 2007)

Lots of glitter at last week's PowerGroup Communications party. And lots of twitter about Harry Stinson, the new guy in town who blew in last month with some bon mots about Hamilton's downtown. In fact, the musicians should have been blasting out, I'm Just Wild About Harry.

For those who haven't read their Spectator recently, the tower power, known as The Condo King, was invited to expound on what Hamilton needs and doesn't need. Credit architect John Mokrycke for bringing the Toronto developer here as the first in the Acclamation Speaker Series, a fundraiser for the United Way of Burlington and Greater Hamilton.

John, who helps the United Way raise money, has long been an admirer of Harry's Toronto condo development work. He put in a cold call to see if Harry would talk about urban design issues and never expected to hear from him. But he did.

John's first words to him? "Don't go to the States, come to Hamilton." (A recent article in a Toronto newspaper, says John, described Harry as being fed up with Toronto and suggested he might move south.) "He was silent and then he said, 'I hadn't thought of that,'" says John. "He's all over town now and he knows more people than you and me," John chuckles.

Harry has impressed some of Hamilton's bright lights, including former MPP Judy Marsales, owner of Judy Marsales Real Estate and Bob Crockford, chairman of Valley City Manufacturing in Dundas.

"It's the biggest buzz around town. We actually have action instead of words. He sees opportunities. Within 24 hours he had momentum brewing," Judy told The Talk at the party. Her take? He's eccentric.

Bob, who lives in Corktown, sees him as the right combination to add to the mix. "This (buzz) isn't about Harry as saviour, but as new energy with a different perspective and new ideas."

Stinson is the grandfather of the loft movement in Toronto. He got the Candy Factory (one of Toronto's first loft developments) going, says Bob. "There are old buildings that need refurbishing. I've been concerned for 30 years. This city deserves better."

Harry, president of Stinson Properties Inc., showed up at the recent 80th anniversary celebration of United Way, says Darrel Skidmore, United Way CEO, who finds him an interesting guy and one of the brightest concept guys he has met. "He's genuinely interested in Hamilton."

It seems he is. Harry is apparently looking for a house in Hamilton. And he's already working four potential development projects in downtown, says John, who deserves a bow. Maybe Harry should run for mayor.

[raisethehammer]

lets hold off on the mayor stuff...but downtown condos and lofts?? go for it big guy!

[SteelTown]

Yesterday he just sold off a property at Toronto for I think around $25 million, was suppose to be the location for Sapphire Tower. He's selling off more properties in Toronto as well, looks like he's abandoning Toronto.

[raisethehammer]

he could buy much of downtown Hamilton for $25 mil. I really want him to get a hold of the Connaught. I love the way he spoke about it and the respect he paid to the "perfect city centre" it faces (Gore Park).

[matt602]

I think Harry is gonna make 2008 VERY interesting.

I'm very excited about this. I didn't expect him to put his money where his mouth is, but now he is definitely doing that. I also agree, it would be awesome if he bought the Connaught off of LIUNA. I'm sure he would not let it sit for any amount of time. Workers would be in there within a week working round the clock.

I'm assuming the 4 projects he is working on will be leaked within the next 2 months.

[SteelTown]

That house on Queen St is listed under Judy Marsales Real Estate, which she's mentioned in the latest article as well. So I guess he did in fact buy that house.

Looks like Marsales and Stinson might be working together on something.

[SteelTown]

Just did a quick search on the house that was sold at Queen St, listed as $2,250,000

http://www.judymarsales.com/listings.php?f=yes&fn=ham_properties.htm

[raisethehammer]

What! 2.2 million?? Who would pay that to live in slummy downtown Hamilton!?!?;)

[matt602]

A lot more people than there were 5 years ago...

[raisethehammer]

lol...I was kidding. Humour can be so hard to convey in writing (as BC Ted always reminds us).

[matt602]

I know, I was just being Captain Obvious :)

[LikeHamilton]

What! 2.2 million?? Who would pay that to live in slummy downtown Hamilton!?!?;)

Two blocks away is Ravenscliffe. I was in a house being renovated. The owner had bought it for $2 million and is spend $1 million to renovate. He thought he got a deal. There are a lot of homes in that area going for over $1 million. It is as far away from a slum as you can get.

Check out Flar’s pics on the Durand Neighbourhood.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140252

I wish I could afford to live in this area.

:yes:

[raisethehammer]

people! it's me - RTH! I was JOKING.
I probably love downtown more than anyone....was just being a smart aleck imitating people in suburban Hamilton who think downtown is slummy.

I hope Harry moves in.

[LikeHamilton]

people! it's me - RTH! I was JOKING.
I probably love downtown more than anyone....was just being a smart aleck imitating people in suburban Hamilton who think downtown is slummy.

I hope Harry moves in.

I saw the name and knew you were not serious. I wrote it for all of the people who have not read your other 2300 posts.

[BrianE]

That house on Queen St is listed under Judy Marsales Real Estate, which she's mentioned in the latest article as well. So I guess he did in fact buy that house.

Looks like Marsales and Stinson might be working together on something.

Woah there... don't be jumping to conclusions. Nobody knows for a "fact" that this Harry Stinson guy is doing anything at all in Hamilton besides walking around downtown and giving talks at a charity.

Not trying to be a party pooper or anything but... all the "facts" in that article are all second hand and third hand rumours.

[DC83]

^^ I think we all just get really excited really easily in this city. haha

I think he IS doing something just by walking around and causing a stir in the local real estate market. People are talking Downtown. And that's a positive!

[SteelTown]

I got excited because I heard a rumour that Harry was looking for a house in Hamilton.

Then RTH said go look at this article in the Spec and ta da sure enough the article mentions that Harry is in fact looking at a house in Hamilton. Then a route I drive every day, Queen St, I see a $2 million mansion just got sold by Judy Marsales Real Estate so it's like this plus this equals this haha.

[raisethehammer]

let's keep in mind, John Mockryke is the guy who brought him to Hamilton. He's the one who said that he's involved in 4 projects already. To me that's a pretty good source. I don't think John would start making things up about Harry in the local media.

[WhipperSnapper]

Condo King?!? .. now that's funny.

Stinson can't even afford a decent pair of pants let alone buy a 2.2 million dollar house or build a condo. The creditors sold off the Sapphire property for 24.5 million at auction which is far below the roughly 35 million they are owed.

I'm sure he will have some creative ideas and maybe even begin to market them but like the half dozen projects before One King, someone else will have to step up to complete them.

[SteelTown]

Outspoken T.O. developer eyes Lister

Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 19, 2007)

The man once dubbed the "Condo King" of Toronto is looking at getting involved in Hamilton's two most significant but stalled downtown redevelopment projects -- the Lister Block and the Royal Connaught Hotel.

High-profile developer Harry Stinson says he wants to buy the Lister and convert the vacant eyesore in the core into a retail and residential showcase.

"I'm interested in it certainly as a potential project, if it's available," said Stinson.

"My preference is ownership. My preference is to say, 'What's the number, guys?'"

Stinson says he's already had "informal" talks with Joe Mancinelli of Labourers' International Union of North America, which bought the decaying landmark at James and King William for $1.6 million in 1999.

"I would say they're cordial and he's open to discussion," said Stinson, "and I would say the conversations have been far more constructive than I expected."

Stinson toured the inside of the Lister yesterday.

But in an interview, Mancinelli insisted the building is not for sale.

Mancinelli says the issue with the Lister is not ownership. It's whether the city, which is supposed to be the anchoring tenant, will sign a lease that's more expensive than anticipated because of the high cost of renovating the heritage building.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger has said a higher lease could be "problematic" for the city's continued participation.

"A change in ownership won't change those numbers," said Mancinelli. Nonetheless, Mancinelli is meeting with Stinson today.

Mancinelli says if the city walks away from the Lister project, he might consider bringing Stinson on board in an expanded partnership to find a new solution. But Mancinelli says the focus of today's meeting is to talk about the possibility of Stinson helping the consortium that's renovating the Connaught on King East, in which LIUNA is a key stakeholder.

That project has fallen on hard times since a group of local investors bought the 1916 landmark hotel for $4.5 million in 2005.

Mancinelli says the Connaught group is changing its plans because it's been unable to find financial backers to pay for the massive renovations.

"The financial institutions will not fund a five-star hotel in Hamilton, that's the bottom line."

Instead, the consortium is looking at redesigning the project and pitching it to a more realistic market.

"Financial institutions want to see new numbers, a new plan. And I'm sure with the new plan we're coming out with, including two condo towers on the southeast corner of the property ... financing won't be an issue anymore."

Mancinelli says Stinson could play a "significant role" because of his own experience in creating the landmark condo-hotel, 1 King West, in downtown Toronto.

That building is now entangled in receivership and legal battles. Stinson, 54, is embroiled with theatre baron David Mirvish, who largely financed the project.

The conflict has not only tarnished Stinson's golden reputation, it's taken a financial toll.

In March, he filed for bankruptcy protection as a result of the $12-million dispute with Mirvish.

In September, a Toronto Star reporter asked Stinson if he was broke.

"Of course I am, but so is the United States," he replied.

Last month, the successful realtor turned visionary developer made a splash in Hamilton when he was invited by local architect John Mokrycke to address a United Way fundraiser.

Since then, Stinson hasn't been shy about sharing his impressions or interest in downtown development.

He maintains the Lister and Connaught are crucial "bellwether buildings" for what is or is not happening in the core.

He sees momentum downtown, grass creeping through the stones.

"But I think it needs some catalytic event that people will say, 'OK, now it's really worth thinking about fixing up my facade, or selling my building, or converting my parking lot.'"

Stinson says a redeveloped Lister and Connaught have the potential to send an "enormous message."

Given his own financial difficulties, it's not clear whether Stinson pictures himself as a creative spark, a magnet for other investors, or a hands-on visionary.

Regardless, Mancinelli argues the Connaught is still a "blockbuster" project. And that the plan for Lister -- which would see the city move a department into the restored building and access a $7-million provincial grant in the process -- remains the best proposal.

"I'm still convinced that the project we have is viable. All we need to do is fine-tune the numbers to make sure it works for us and the city."

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/298465

[SteelTown]

Harry Stinson turns to Hamilton, and vice-versa

Posted: December 20, 2007, 7:14 PM by Rob Roberts

Harry Stinson, Toronto’s dethroned condo king, has resurfaced in Hamilton, where he is in negotiations involving two of Steeltown’s most significant downtown properties.

Mr. Stinson said today he has had discussions with the Labourers’ International Union of North America, which bought two landmark Hamilton properties, the Lister Block and the Royal Connaught Hotel for $1.6-million in 1999, and was interested in getting involved in the stalled redevelopment project.

But Mr. Stinson stressed discussions with Joe Mancinelli of the labourers’ union were in a very early stage.

“As far as I’m concerned [it’s] Joe’s property and I respect his rights,” Mr. Stinson said. “[It’s] a very tentative and early relationship. We’re many months off.”

In the past Mr. Stinson has been called Toronto’s answer to Donald Trump, but he has recently fallen on hard times. In March, Mr. Stinson’s two companies, Stinson Hospitality Inc., and Dominion Club of Canada Corp., had accrued $20-million in debt. He later filed for bankruptcy protection after a $12-million dispute over the condo hotel at 1 King West with prominent theatre producer David Mirvish, who largely financed the project.

Mr. Stinson conceded the Hamilton properties were appealing, given their central location and iconic status in the city, but because of his financial difficulties it’s not clear what role he would play in the redevelopment.

“I and many many people have looked at the properties and thought these would be great developments. I’m intrigued by Hamilton but I have other things to sort out first. It’s certainly more interesting to me than Toronto at least on an emotional level,” said Mr. Stinson.

As it stands, the city of Hamilton is slated to be the anchoring tenant in the Lister Block once it is renovated, but Mayor Fred Eisenberger said they “have a long way to go” to reach an agreement on a lease price. If the deal between the union and the city falls through, Mr. Mancinelli told the Hamilton Spectator he might consider bringing Mr. Stinson on board in an expanded partnership in order to find a new solution.

Mr. Eisenberger said he has met with Mr. Stinson to discuss investing in the city, but had not heard of any specific agreement between him and Mr. Mancinelli.

“I am aware that they have met, yes. We could all hope that they get together to do something,” said Mr. Eisenberger. “The city has put all the programs in place to encourage investment from the private sector into downtown.”

Mr. Stinson said an article in Wednesday’s Hamilton Spectator, which reported he plans to purchase and redevelop the two Hamilton properties, was “speculative” and “premature.”

“[The Spectator] wrote a story much to the astonishment of myself and others,” he said. “Are we talking about things? Sure. Life consists of people talking about things.”

In the article, Mr. Mancinelli said Mr. Stinson could play a “significant role” in the redevelopment of the Connaught Hotel, given his experience and high-profile as a developer in Toronto.

— Story by Ben Shingler, photo by Peter J. Thompson, National Post

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2007/12/20/harry-stinson-turns-to-hamilton-and-vice-versa.aspx

[SteelTown]

Ding Ding!

Short term plan for Stinson is to reslove a site within 30 days. What site? I dunno.

[raisethehammer]

as best as I can remember here are some highlights from his hour-long interview with Bill Kelly:



- he wants to do something 'outrageous' that will gain attention from all over the place and signal that "something is happening in Hamilton". Those hoping for a 'new tallest' might be in luck.
- he specifically mentioned 1 King West and said he'd like to do the same thing with Connaught and surrounding parking lots.
- he talked about high quality, high density residential downtown - Stelco Tower, Lister, endless parking lots etc...
- he said Hamilton has a strange obsession with parking lots (no friggin kidding)
- he believes downtown is about to explode and it will only take one or two big catalysts to kick start it.
- he mentioned Starbucks, Dominion's new store near St Lawrence Market (as a possibility for Jackson square) Kinko's etc....
- he says that he will finalize his first building location downtown in the next 30 days and it MUST be on the Gore. He said it starts at the Gore...get that kickstarted and watch out..in other words, he's about to seal the deal for a Gore Park property...probably Connaught if I had to guess.

[markbarbera]

Recent posting on CHML.com:


Toronto Developer eyes Lister and Connaught

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - There may be a new catalyst in the redevelopment of downtown Hamilton.
A high-profile developer, once known as Toronto's condo king, has expressed an interest in purchasing both the Lister Block and the Royal Connaught Hotel.

Harry Stinson says there have been informal meetings, even though the current owners insist that the building's are not for sale.

Stinson says "the tide is just about to turn" in downtown Hamilton.

He adds that it simply needs a catalyst.

Stinson is taking aim at Hamilton for his comeback after a difficult year in Toronto, during which his company went bankrupt and he became embroiled in a legal battle with David Mirvish.
- Ken Mann

[SteelTown]

It's very obvious when listening to Stinson on CHML that he would like to work with the Royal Connaught Hotel. Kept mentioning parking lots (Connaught surrounds a parking lot), near Gore Park (Connaught faces Gore Park), likes to work with old and historical buildings (duh Connaught), wants new high high density residential (again parking lot next to Connaught), previous experience with 1 King West (hotel, historical base and residential) and finally 30 days to reslove a site (who's Stinson currently talking with? LIUNA and what property do that own with a group of other investors? Connaught). Also he stressed how important it is to do it with private money, not public money.

Though personally I don't think he'll take over the Royal Connaught on his own, he'll probably be like majority owner and have investors helping him like 1 King West.

[markbarbera]

Stinson has more on the go than just his Connaught talks. He has four potential projects in his sights. His talk about locating right in the Gore, his disdain for parking lots, and his 30-day resolution timeline could apply just as easily (even better) to the empty lot adjacent to the Pigott building, which is a privately owned empty parking lot facing Queen Victoria at the head of the Gore. The owner is ready to sell, and this would be a prime location for Stinson to do something 'outrageous', like add a new landmark tower to our skyline. Connaught and Lister may be on his list, but that doesn't mean they are first on the list. The arrangements at both buildings would be a bit too complicated to pull it all together within a 30-day timeframe, given that LIUNA is one of the parties involved. However, closing a deal with an investor to develop on an empty site with no historical designations or multiple parties of interest complicating negotiations can easily fit into a 30-day timeframe.

[raisethehammer]

hmmm, you might be right mark. How do you know that the owner of that lot is willing to sell??
That would be quite the spot for a huge tower with retail at the ground floor.
He spoke about mixed use constantly today - retail/dining at grade, then commercial, then tons of residential on top.
Obviously this guy is already speaking with the folks at city hall about their height restrictions. He talked about that today too...saying that it might sound nice to keep a 'village feel' but a proper downtown needs tons of people walking around. He obviously likes towers. I think he wants to make a statement.

[realcity]

Harry is going to transform Hamilton. He's going to do what everyone has been saying can't be done. That's his personality. I think he's driven to prove people wrong. LIUNA/Hi-Rise are full of crap. I had total respect and confidence in LIUNA since the CN Station reno but now it's all gone. The shame is it should've remained a train station. Perhaps one day it can be a station again. Lister and Royal Connaught have all but erased all the confidence i had.

[fastcarsfreedom]

This interest in development downtown is awesome news--I'm thrilled--whether it's Harry Stinson or not. As for the lot at the head of the Gore--I'd be interested to see how that unfolds--seems to me that much of that land is owned by Yale--I'd be downright shocked if they'd be willing to sell.

[raisethehammer]

This interest in development downtown is awesome news--I'm thrilled--whether it's Harry Stinson or not. As for the lot at the head of the Gore--I'd be interested to see how that unfolds--seems to me that much of that land is owned by Yale--I'd be downright shocked if they'd be willing to sell.

me too...if Yale owns, he'd have to offer a pretty penny to snag that site.

[markbarbera]

me too...if Yale owns, he'd have to offer a pretty penny to snag that site.

Well, the current property owner is willing to sell. Back in 2006, when the site was included as part of the option to redesign the McNab terminal, the city made enquiries about the availability of the land and anticipated cost to acquire the land. The terminal assessment report indicates the land could be purchased from the current owner at a cost of about $2 million.

Why would anyone be surprised that the land would be available for purchase? The property's original buildings were bulldozed even though structurally sound, then the land was paved as a parking lot. This is a tell-tale sign of a speculative landowner who has no intention of putting down development cost, and is just holding on to the land to flip it once the price is right. For this property, $2 million is the right price. If the owner had any intention of developing the site, this would have been done a decade ago.

[raisethehammer]

cool...I hope you're right. Imagine a nifty signature tower overlooking the Gore? Light it up at night and it would be visible from everywhere...heck, if he goes tall enough, it'll be visible from everywhere in the daytime.

[fastcarsfreedom]

That land was initially assembled as part of a plan by Royal Bank to build a complex similar in scale to what CIBC did. Before that came to pass Royal got out of the real estate development business altogether and is now comfortably at Stelco Tower.

As for Yale--and why I'd be surprised to see them sell--frankly mark, they've owned plenty of land around downtown for years that they have no intention of developing--it seems to be there modus operandi.

[raisethehammer]

Stinson spoke about this in his interview yesterday as well (apparently CHML is repeating the whole thing today on-air).
He said that he's spoken with many landowners and some are interested in selling, but most say "no way. This land will be worth something someday". He says back to them "are you content to wait and maybe your child or grandchild might see the payback? Why not do it now?".
He says most are going to start developing themselves if someone can really kickstart the whole area - that's what he wants to do. That's another reason he wants to do something right at the Gore. And I agree with him....so far we've seen some great things starting to happen in all 4 directions out from the Gore, but not right in the Gore itself. A new signature tower with a well-known cafe/restaurant on the ground floor (geez, I'm starting to sound like the rest of ya!) would really send out a strong message that downtown is back.

[markbarbera]

Exactly, fastcarsfreedom. They are holding onto the land until the right price comes along. Fortunately (finally), Hamilton is catching up with surrounding real estate and the 'right prices' are starting to pop up.

A more cynical person would suggest they are holding land to prevent others from developing property that would compete with space offered in their current property holdings in the city, or even to intentionally hold back development to punish city hall for percieved wrongs, but that's a little far-fetched, wouldn't you think ;)

[raisethehammer]

yea, there's no way someone is owning property for that reason....they all would like to develop, but don't want to take the initial risk. At least that's what Harry said he found from talking to many land-owners.

[fastcarsfreedom]

What was I thinking--Yale would never try to stonewall development to protect it's own complex (which it invests nothing into).

[raisethehammer]

that's totally different than suggesting that someone has bought up downtown properties for the sole purpose of intentionally doing nothing with no desire and no plans of ever doing anything. I really can't see someone buying up property with that intention.

[raisethehammer]

realcity will get a kick out of this. The website for Sapphire Tower Toronto:

http://www.sapphiretower.com/

...will continue where?? In the Hammer??

[SteelTown]

I would love to see Stinson build a high rise tower at the parking lot beside Pigott and CIBC. I would personally be interested in a condo on that site especially if my front window is facing Gore Park. It would be the hottest piece of property in Hamilton.

Maybe Stinson and the City could work together and have a bus terminal at the back of the building facing MacNab like the Transportation building at St. Kitts. That would be another sweet bonus of living in the building, a main transit terminal in your building! lol

[realcity]

If Stinson builds the Lister into Condos or a Sapphire somewhere in Hamilton, I'm personally buying three units, this is where people -- retiring boomers -- want to be. Close walking distance to doctors, theatres, hospitals, markets, it will totally be the hottest property.

[raisethehammer]

3 units?? wow...must be nice. How about loaning me some coin?? lol.
Maybe he'll try to put Sapphire next to Pigott?? I think the final version of Sapphire was 60-62 floors...maybe a little tall for here...I'd think that 50-55 would work in the Hammer.

[SteelTown]

Well to beat the current tallest it's gotta be 44 stories or more. I like to name the building as Renaissance Tower.

[realcity]

sorry Steel but i think Renaissance is too generic. Every city has a renaissance building. I would like it be named Sapphire. Or something symbolic to the apex of the Golden Horseshoe.

It could be 55 - 60. It doesn't mean it will be the only thing built. If downtown experiences a post mod version of the early to mid 70s, there could be cranes building a dozen 300+ footers.

[chris k]

3 units?? wow...must be nice. How about loaning me some coin?? lol.
Maybe he'll try to put Sapphire next to Pigott?? I think the final version of Sapphire was 60-62 floors...maybe a little tall for here...I'd think that 50-55 would work in the Hammer.

I like the idea of having our tallest building in the very centre of our city but i think that that space would be more suited for parking. (Just kidding lol)

I actually think the having more residential condos then hotel/condo mix would be more suitable for that area as you are next to class A office towers and this would be a good balance of space.

This is saying that Stinson gets control of the royal connaught and transforms that into a good res/condo mix.

These plans would bring tons of people back downtown and directly around the gore and make that area thrive as Stinson originally siad it one day would be.
:cheers:

[matt602]

Let's call the building "The Hammer".



.... whaaat? It's original!

[GreatTallNorth2]

Do you guys believe in Santa too? Just kidding.

What is the current rail transportation situation like in Hamilton? Is there a train to Union, either GO or Via? That is really what is needed if you don't already have it. A fast link to Union would send land prices soaring and it would make tall buildings a reality. I hope it happens.

[BCTed]

sorry Steel but i think Renaissance is too generic. Every city has a renaissance building. I would like it be named Sapphire. Or something symbolic to the apex of the Golden Horseshoe.

It could be 55 - 60. It doesn't mean it will be the only thing built. If downtown experiences a post mod version of the early to mid 70s, there could be cranes building a dozen 300+ footers.

You guys are insane to even entertain the idea of anything close to a 60 foot tower just because Harry Stinson came into town a couple of times. He is just trying to get a whiff of Hamilton because of his miserable failures in Toronto. He is like a snake oil salesman who was exposed as a fraud in another town, but has not yet been in this one.

If he could not get a 70 story tower built in Toronto, you can bet that a 50+ story job will not happen in Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

Do you guys believe in Santa too? Just kidding.

What is the current rail transportation situation like in Hamilton? Is there a train to Union, either GO or Via? That is really what is needed if you don't already have it. A fast link to Union would send land prices soaring and it would make tall buildings a reality. I hope it happens.

There is GO service downtown, but trains only run at certain times. Buses run nonstop to Union.
The powers that be tell us that improved train service is coming, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[flar]

I'm not getting excited yet, remember Stinson is bankrupt. But it's nice to dream, I put whole bunch of skyline views in the latest Hamilton photothread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=142657) that would look a lot sweeter with a building to match the height of Landmark Place.

[BCTed]

You guys are insane to even entertain the idea of anything close to a 60 foot tower...

Oops! Maybe something close to a 60 foot tower is possible.

[realcity]

Stinson didn't just come to town a couple of times. He wants to buy land. He will announce his project in 30 days. read about the interview on www.raisethehammer.org or CHML might have it.

He also said he won't build a measly 50 unit building, they are as much hassle as 500 unit buildings. He wants the Lister and/or The Connaught he specifically mentioned a project like 1KW for the Connaught site. These are his words.... not mine.

Wouldn't that be great if Stinson proves everyone wrong. That's usually what he likes to do. He still has money believe me. When people go bankrupt its to protect their money not give it all away.

[raisethehammer]

yup, realcity is right.
Stinson's response to the question "are you broke?" was awesome - "yea, and so is the United States".

Trump has had money problems over the years...all of these guys know how to "go broke" and still have millons. He's just about done paying off his creditors with the sale of Sapphire site. CHML should post that interview (even though none of them ever work on my computer). Anyone who thinks we're on here blowing smoke for no reason needs to listen to that interview. He was VERY clear. He wants to do 1 King West again at Connaught. And he's interested in 500 unit projects, not 55 units. Read the summary report on RTH.com. It's a good recap. I heard most of the interview and that summary does good at presenting the highlights.
By the way, 1 King West is 51 stories so I don't think it's fair to say that he could never build a building approaching 60 floors (or feet. lol). He already did.

[BCTed]

yup, realcity is right.
Stinson's response to the question "are you broke?" was awesome - "yea, and so is the United States".

Trump has had money problems over the years...all of these guys know how to "go broke" and still have millons. He's just about done paying off his creditors with the sale of Sapphire site. CHML should post that interview (even though none of them ever work on my computer). Anyone who thinks we're on here blowing smoke for no reason needs to listen to that interview. He was VERY clear. He wants to do 1 King West again at Connaught. And he's interested in 500 unit projects, not 55 units. Read the summary report on RTH.com. It's a good recap. I heard most of the interview and that summary does good at presenting the highlights.
By the way, 1 King West is 51 stories so I don't think it's fair to say that he could never build a building approaching 60 floors (or feet. lol). He already did.

I am very familiar with One King West and the disaster that it has turned out to be --- Stinson has been forced out of that project by Mirvish. When I said that Stinson could not put up a 70 story building in Toronto, I meant that he can no longer put up such a building, as evidenced by the Sapphire debacle.

[markbarbera]

Sapphire debacle? That property development was stalled by his bankruptcy application back in March. He has sold it at a price that covers practically all of his debt identified in the bankruptcy file. Once closed, he will have sold that property, settled the bankruptcy and starting his new Hamilton developments. Looks like he's landing on his feet, and ready for new projects, and Hamilton is the beneficiary.

[raisethehammer]

it's kind of funny listening to folks on here who have always come across as 'big business or bust' have no clue about how the finances work for these individuals behind the scenes.
Stinson might be one of the wealthiest men in Hamilton. He's not broke...not even close. And his connections are insane. Much deeper and richer than any of our little, rinky-dink townhome builders.

[go_leafs_go02]

this guy seriously excites me. He understands the potential Hamilton has, but what needs to be done first. I hope he can come a major influence and transform Hamilton into one of the prime places to live

[BCTed]

Sapphire debacle? That property development was stalled by his bankruptcy application back in March. He has sold it at a price that covers practically all of his debt identified in the bankruptcy file. Once closed, he will have sold that property, settled the bankruptcy and starting his new Hamilton developments. Looks like he's landing on his feet, and ready for new projects, and Hamilton is the beneficiary.

It was sold at a price that was several million dollars lower than the debt outstanding --- most of the money from the sale will go to secured creditors. Once they are all paid, people such as those who were gullible enough to put down deposits on units will have to scrounge over what is left and only get a fraction of their hard-earned money back.

[BCTed]

From http://www.thestar.com/columnists/article/244110:

"Unfortunately, I have lost a great deal of money, and I have lost all confidence in Mr. Stinson as a person with whom to do business. Unfortunately, he is not competent to run the businesses operated by SHI and Club Corp."

–Affidavit of David Mirvish

[BCTed]

And let's not forget all of the people who bought units in 1 King West believing that they had surefire double-digit returns coming their way. The whole hotel/condo scheme fell apart when unitholders were taxed with corporate rates rather than residential rates.

I saw Mr. Stinson in action way back when he was peddling the 1 King units to anyone who would listen. He was quick (and, to me, misleading) with the numbers, and made it sound like high returns were guaranteed. Never believe anyone who does that.

[BCTed]

it's kind of funny listening to folks on here who have always come across as 'big business or bust' have no clue about how the finances work for these individuals behind the scenes.
Stinson might be one of the wealthiest men in Hamilton. He's not broke...not even close. And his connections are insane. Much deeper and richer than any of our little, rinky-dink townhome builders.

I don't know who you think suggested that Stinson was broke, but it was not me. I am sure that he has been able to pocket a reasonable amount of money for himself.

Among the wealthiest in Hamilton? I seriously doubt that, even if he actually were a Hamiltonian.

[raisethehammer]

And let's not forget all of the people who bought units in 1 King West believing that they had surefire double-digit returns coming their way. The whole hotel/condo scheme fell apart when unitholders were taxed with corporate rates rather than residential rates.

I saw Mr. Stinson in action way back when he was peddling the 1 King units to anyone who would listen. He was quick (and, to me, misleading) with the numbers, and made it sound like high returns were guaranteed. Never believe anyone who does that.


that would be pretty much every condo developer in Toronto. Thanks for the advice.

[markbarbera]

And let's not forget all of the people who bought units in 1 King West believing that they had surefire double-digit returns coming their way. The whole hotel/condo scheme fell apart when unitholders were taxed with corporate rates rather than residential rates.

I saw Mr. Stinson in action way back when he was peddling the 1 King units to anyone who would listen. He was quick (and, to me, misleading) with the numbers, and made it sound like high returns were guaranteed. Never believe anyone who does that.

Um, David Mirvish's beef with Stinson is strictly about 1 King West. In fact, this is the development that has caused Stinson great pain, and is the only development that was not as successful as was hoped. The lawsuit Mirvish and his co-claimants launched on Stinson was based on the fact that they were not making as much money as they thought they would, but their investments certainly were not money losers. The proposed Sapphire site was subsequently sold off to settle the business bankruptcy, so it really was collatoral damage brought on by the Mirvish suit against Stinson. So, the folks who lost their deposits on it have Mirvish to thank just as much as Stinson.

Let's not forget Stinson had some very successful developments as well. The Pantages Hotel/Condo complex on Victoria Street is highly successful and is filled with happy condo owners. AS far as the quote from Mr. Mirvish, did you think that an affadavit from someone launching a suit against you would sing Stinson's praises? Besides, this is David Mirvish we are talking about. He is a shadow of the businessman his father was, and 1 King isn't the first bad business decision he has made in his career.

[BCTed]

that would be pretty much every condo developer in Toronto. Thanks for the advice.

Ever the smartass, I see.

Harry Stinson advertised high returns from hotel revenues from this project for those people who chose to rent out their rooms.

Typical condos are not explicitly pitched as investment vehicles.

[BCTed]

Um, David Mirvish's beef with Stinson is strictly about 1 King West. In fact, this is the development that has caused Stinson great pain, and is the only development that was not as successful as was hoped. The lawsuit Mirvish and his co-claimants launched on Stinson was based on the fact that they were not making as much money as they thought they would, but their investments certainly were not money losers. The proposed Sapphire site was subsequently sold off to settle the business bankruptcy, so it really was collatoral damage brought on by the Mirvish suit against Stinson. So, the folks who lost their deposits on it have Mirvish to thank just as much as Stinson.

Let's not forget Stinson had some very successful developments as well. The Pantages Hotel/Condo complex on Victoria Street is highly successful and is filled with happy condo owners. AS far as the quote from Mr. Mirvish, did you think that an affadavit from someone launching a suit against you would sing Stinson's praises? Besides, this is David Mirvish we are talking about. He is a shadow of the businessman his father was, and 1 King isn't the first bad business decision he has made in his career.

Stinson probably should never have been selling units in a building that was still at the pie-in-the-sky phase.

I do not know anything about the Pantages complex other than the fact that the Blutrich guy from the article was involved. Do you have any links or other information to share about it and Stinson's involvement?

The bottom line with David Mirvish is that he was probably as involved with Stinson as anybody else has been, and he wound up very unhappy.

And while Stinson may have had past successes, he also has a track record of failures, such as the Candy Factory.

He may well end up being good for Hamilton (if he actually is serious about pursuing anything in Ham), but I am not anywhere near as ready to roll out the red carpet as everyone else on here, nor am I anywhere near as optimistic. And all this talk on here of a "new tallest" just because Stinson offered up a couple of sound bytes just seems insane to me.

[DC83]

^^ I think anyone talking POSITIVELY about Downtown Hamilton deserves a red carpet intro!! It's a rarity around these parts!

[raisethehammer]

Ever the smartass, I see.

Harry Stinson advertised high returns from hotel revenues from this project for those people who chose to rent out their rooms.

Typical condos are not explicitly pitched as investment vehicles.


Yes they are:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2007/11/13/chaos-erupts-in-lineup-for-pricey-condos.aspx

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20071106/condo_lineup_071106/20071106/?hub=TorontoHome