[Jeffsey500]

I'd like some feedback on my map (to be released when McKnight-Westwinds opens in Calgary). I know I already posted to the Calgary Transit thread, but with the West LRT line routing war, it got lost fast. I welcome any and all feedback. Death threats are asked to be re-direct to random people in the phonebook.

If you ride Calgary's LRT, you'll see why I'm triying to make better decent maps. (Bad maps, random line colours that change with each new map, lack of info, particularily for one-way stations) See it here --> http://www.calgarytransit.com/Routes/lrt_stop.html

Eventually, I plan to start making more of these for other cities, and it is important to me to perfect this design first (Series501 Maps).

Next on the list is Edmonton, Toronto, and Montreal (Vancouver is already done although a slightly older design/Series449).

-----------------
Added December 9, 2007
Vote on how you want the train map to look!
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=142588
You can also see all incarnations of the map there.



---

http://peopledumb.com/Calgary%20LRT.jpg
See Vancouver Here --> http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/vancouver/skymap.html

[feepa]

When did this become the Calgary Section?

Can we please name the topics appropriately? Kinda confusing "LRT Map" and "Lrt Downtown Underground"

sorry - not trying to be an ass - just something that annoyed me

[IKAN104]

When did this become the Calgary Section?

Can we please name the topics appropriately? Kinda confusing "LRT Map" and "Lrt Downtown Underground"

sorry - not trying to be an ass - just something that annoyed me

I second that.

[Beltliner]

You realise, of course, that all of these labels should be in Russian (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/4/4d/%D0%A1%D0%A5%D0%95%D0%9C%D0%90.PNG).

[Jeffsey500]

You realise, of course, that all of these labels should be in Russian (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/4/4d/%D0%A1%D0%A5%D0%95%D0%9C%D0%90.PNG).

Are those real station names? That's so randomly cool, yet somehow iconic of our system... :D

[Beltliner]

Are those real station names? That's so randomly cool, yet somehow iconic of our system... :D

Some of the station names, for which obvious Russian language terms exist (Zohohparkskaya for Zoo, Sorokpyataya Oolitsa for 45 Avenue), are translated directly, but Shinuk and Vaytkhorn are two of the more obvious Cyrillic transliterations.

[The Chemist]

sorry - not trying to be an ass

But succeeding all the same. :rolleyes:

Seriously, you sound just like Malek used to behave in the Canada section.

[Xelebes]

You realise, of course, that all of these labels should be in Russian (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/4/4d/%D0%A1%D0%A5%D0%95%D0%9C%D0%90.PNG).

Tak! My Edmontonska rozkleyuvach afish chytaty bil'she scho doroha!

[vid]

Tak!

Tak ah lah!

Sorry. :(

What did you use to make the map?

[governorgeneral]

Looks good, pretty clear! What's it for - a school project? A transit campaign? Just some style nitpicks:

- stations: could be simplified to little bumps along each coloured line, instead of white circles - save that for transfer stations. (See the London Underground map)

- single-direction-only stations in the Free Fare Zone: you indicate these with an arrow, which is clear, but could have an explanation in the legend for people who wouldn't know what it means

- transit bus connexions: very nice icons! The text could be consistent though, eg "[destination] via bus [number]"; right now your maps says "Via Routes" and "Bus Route", which could be confusing. Also, the dotted line stemming from the relevant CTrain station makes the text "... from [station]" unneccesary.

- walking instructions: genius putting that in there too. Again, don't need to say "... from [station]" if the dotted line is there.

- can you indicate stations with bike lockers too? (Do Calgary stations have bike lockers?) Just a bike pictogramme is enough.

- (Edit) Be consistent with double station names: dash between if it's actually a hyphenated name, slash if it's actually two separate stations (like Vancouver's B'way / Commercial)

- Free Fare Zone: you don't need the caption "City Centre..." on the map if it's in the legend; just put the highlight so it's cleaner.

- simplifying "nth Street West" to "n St W" will also save on clutter

- Capitalising Every Word In A Sentence Also Takes Away From A Clean Look

- Something less generic than Arial would be nice too

- For people unfamiliar with the city layout/geography, cues like the river or parks or major roads are nice to have

Overall, I like! Way nicer and more useful than the one on the Transit website.

[vid]

The font I used on my Thunder Bay transit map is called Communist, I got it from a free font site. Another nice looking font is Collegiate, from that same site. The first is sans serif, the second is serif.

[governorgeneral]

The font I used on my Thunder Bay transit map is called Communist, I got it from a free font site. Another nice looking font is Collegiate, from that same site. The first is sans serif, the second is serif.

Hey, those are nice, thanks. Though I thought both would be called sans serif?

I used a cover of the British highway font (http://www.triskele.com/roadgeek-fonts) for some signs at the hospital I work at. We were having "problems" with people using the showers. Being a road sign font I thought it would be nice and clear even at a distance:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/ggphotographs/63-R1-2/DSCF3429.jpg

[Jeffsey500]

Looks good, pretty clear! What's it for - a school project? A transit campaign? Just some style nitpicks:

- stations: could be simplified to little bumps along each coloured line, instead of white circles - save that for transfer stations. (See the London Underground map)

- single-direction-only stations in the Free Fare Zone: you indicate these with an arrow, which is clear, but could have an explanation in the legend for people who wouldn't know what it means

- transit bus connexions: very nice icons! The text could be consistent though, eg "[destination] via bus [number]"; right now your maps says "Via Routes" and "Bus Route", which could be confusing. Also, the dotted line stemming from the relevant CTrain station makes the text "... from [station]" unneccesary.

- walking instructions: genius putting that in there too. Again, don't need to say "... from [station]" if the dotted line is there.

- can you indicate stations with bike lockers too? (Do Calgary stations have bike lockers?) Just a bike pictogramme is enough.

- (Edit) Be consistent with double station names: dash between if it's actually a hyphenated name, slash if it's actually two separate stations (like Vancouver's B'way / Commercial)

- Free Fare Zone: you don't need the caption "City Centre..." on the map if it's in the legend; just put the highlight so it's cleaner.

- simplifying "nth Street West" to "n St W" will also save on clutter

- Capitalising Every Word In A Sentence Also Takes Away From A Clean Look

- Something less generic than Arial would be nice too

- For people unfamiliar with the city layout/geography, cues like the river or parks or major roads are nice to have

Overall, I like! Way nicer and more useful than the one on the Transit website.

I'll look into some of those suggestions. I prefer Arial because it is fairly easy to read and is the only Sans Serif font used on transit. I know the dash and slash station names are horrible, but thats what they are in real life here. Confusing and Disjointed (Sadly just like our transit system).

Added: For changing the station circles to the "bumps" like the London Underground. I think not. Whenever I read it, I have a lot of trouble finding stations. I see the name, but where is it... Perhaps necessary for large networks, but definitely not for smaller ones. I was thinking of making the circles outlined in the same colour as the line, except transfer stations will still be black.

Adding rivers, probably not. That would add confusion. Particularly since we have 2 rivers that run around downtown at random angles, then meet and join at the edge of downtown, then run east wards along the 202 for a while, the abruptly turn south. Not to mention the not to scale nature of everything, the river will become really weird or will end up looking like it is near to things it obviously is not. Just like the existing maps, but even worse.

Bicycles, I'll look into. I wonder how many what station lockers? hmmm.

Font, the road one suggested by somebody above is nice. Perhaps.

Major Roads: We love cars, so many its not even funny. And all the lines run along or very near major roads. The line's own footprint will eventually cover itself.

Perhaps major museums and shopping malls adjacent will be added, but these will definitely be faint background images. If this happens, major parks and bike paths will likely follow.

[HomeInMyShoes]

I like the Arial/Helvetical font genres. Clean and reasonably easy to read. I'm understanding the arrows in the middle (overlapped section), but I think it could be clearer. It's a bit muddled from a readability point there and as an outsider to the city or infrequent user it would be confusing to me. Maps are most important for casual users.

[Jeffsey500]

I like the Arial/Helvetical font genres. Clean and reasonably easy to read. I'm understanding the arrows in the middle (overlapped section), but I think it could be clearer. It's a bit muddled from a readability point there and as an outsider to the city or infrequent user it would be confusing to me. Maps are most important for casual users.

Any specifics you'd like to suggest? (The Intercity bus boxed will be shrunk to something a lot smaller.)

Added: For the arrows, would the words "ONE WAY" in the bubble help? I'm not all too keen on putting that into the legend.

[Rusty van Reddick]

I don't think feepa is being an ass at all. At Chowhound, in the western Canada section, posters from Vancouver would always write threads with titles like "downtown sushi recs?" and the the post would say, "I'm visiting for a few days- what are the best sushi places near the Sheraton?" They ALWAYS meant "Vancouver" but would post as if it was their own section. As a Calgarian who was at the time one of a cadre of maybe four people from Calgary who posted there, it really pissed me off and I would comment on it whenever it happened. It's stopped, and good thing.

It's not difficult to title a thread more clearly.

[Jeffsey500]

I don't think feepa is being an ass at all. At Chowhound, in the western Canada section, posters from Vancouver would always write threads with titles like "downtown sushi recs?" and the the post would say, "I'm visiting for a few days- what are the best sushi places near the Sheraton?" They ALWAYS meant "Vancouver" but would post as if it was their own section. As a Calgarian who was at the time one of a cadre of maybe four people from Calgary who posted there, it really pissed me off and I would comment on it whenever it happened. It's stopped, and good thing.

It's not difficult to title a thread more clearly.

I realize my thread title isn't the best, and I wish I could change it. But there isn't much of a point arguing over the stupid thread title. It looks like it will have to wait for a moderator, so stop arguing about it. This is absolutely pointless and the cause for a lot of society's problems. Arguing and getting hung up on little insignificant things and end up forgetting the big picture.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Any specifics you'd like to suggest? (The Intercity bus boxed will be shrunk to something a lot smaller.)

Added: For the arrows, would the words "ONE WAY" in the bubble help? I'm not all too keen on putting that into the legend.

I don't think you need the words. I'll try and explain the confusion I think could result from the map itself. If I needed to go from 8th Street West to Olympic Plaza, what do I do as a passenger? Looking at the map, I'm thinking I have to take the 201 and get off at Center or City Hall and then walk. Is that correct? Does the 202 when heading that way also work because it's unclear from the map. That's the kind of interepretation that can come from the map that are unclear. I'm understanding one-way, but not how that relates to each line. Again, it is probably perfectly clear to those that use the system frequently, but it's better to test against those that don't know the system for legibility. People that use an LRT map are those that use it once every few months to head to a game or are in town for a conference and want to check out a few sights in some down time. Frequent users only want to know the schedule because they already know the routes and how to get around.

[Jeffsey500]

Well each one way station serves both lines in the direction shown by the arrow.

Would two arrows help? One arrow over each line; ie: (ignore the blue dots if you can see them)
....... / --\
=== | -> | ====
=== | -> | ====
....... \ --/

[HomeInMyShoes]

That was my reading, but it wasn't completely clear and I can definitely see people misreading it. I think actually writing that out somewhere on the map would make it more understandable. I actually don't think the problem is the map, but Calgary's LRT routes that are the legibility problem here.

Try going from Anderson to the Zoo and you need to read and then infer that you're either riding all the way through downtown and then catching the same line the other way and then transfering to the other line at one of the one-way downtown stops or doing a bit of walking in the core, but that's not the discussion of this thread. So I'll leave it.

Two arrows might help. Single dots for each line with the arrows maybe. The only way to know for sure is to find random people some who know the system and some who don't and show them one of the map options, then ask them how to get from A to B. That should tell you what is more readible for more people. Assuming a large enough sample size. Useability is tough because in the end, using LoFi design to hash through it and then sampling the poplulation is the best way to guarantee the best design. And best does not mean good for all people either. But then, almost no one pays for that process and we end up getting crappy websites, and unuseable guidebooks. You've hit a subject matter I care about a lot.

[governorgeneral]

As HomeInMyShoes said, the best way to tell if your maps works is to run it by people who aren't familiar with the system.

I'll look into some of those suggestions.

You're welcome.

I prefer Arial because it is fairly easy to read and is the only Sans Serif font used on transit.

I'm with you on the easy-to-read part, but Arial having a monopoly on transit? Look at almost every major transit system in the world, they steer clear of Arial! Some even come up with their own proprietary fonts precisely because it's easier to read than Arial (as well as being image-conscious).

Adding rivers, probably not. That would add confusion. Particularly since we have 2 rivers that run around downtown at random angles, then meet and join at the edge of downtown, then run east wards along the 202 for a while, the abruptly turn south. Not to mention the not to scale nature of everything, the river will become really weird or will end up looking like it is near to things it obviously is not. Just like the existing maps, but even worse.

Like the suggestion to include major roads, this is mostly for people who don't know Calgary and would need some way to orient the map around landmarks.

Major Roads: all the lines run along or very near major roads. The line's own footprint will eventually cover itself.

Maybe you could just add the name of the road to the line running along it? Like the TTC map. Also, do the station names in Calgary correspond to the cross streets? If not, that could also be useful for non-Calgarians.

That was my reading, but it wasn't completely clear and I can definitely see people misreading it. I think actually writing that out somewhere on the map would make it more understandable. I actually don't think the problem is the map, but Calgary's LRT routes that are the legibility problem here.

Two arrows might help. Single dots for each line with the arrows maybe.

Yes, it's hard to tell that there's really just one track on either side of the street downtown, and both "lines" use it. (Though if they were really separate lines on separate tracks, presumably there'd be a space between the colours instead of them touching each other, so it should be reasonable as-is.) I think the double-arrows will make it more clear that both lines stop at each station, but something in the legend like "<- westbound trains only" and "-> eastbound trains only" is definitely necessary.

The only way to know for sure is to find random people some who know the system and some who don't and show them one of the map options, then ask them how to get from A to B. That should tell you what is more readible for more people. Assuming a large enough sample size. Useability is tough because in the end, using LoFi design to hash through it and then sampling the poplulation is the best way to guarantee the best design. And best does not mean good for all people either. But then, almost no one pays for that process and we end up getting crappy websites, and unuseable guidebooks. You've hit a subject matter I care about a lot.

The easy way is to take a proven map (eg London Underground) and copy its technique to fit the local system. I found a TTC map done London-style, including the both the subway and streetcar lines (the TTC map doesn't even show the streetcars), and it definitely made those first days getting used to living in Toronto easier:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/1650954771_3f82776754_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93159238@N00/1650954771)

(Photo: me)

[Jeffsey500]

For other transportation connections, should I even bother to leave the "Via bus route _______" or would the simple icons and name be sufficient? See the Inter-City bus boxes on the image below to compare.

http://peopledumb.com/Calgary%20LRT3.jpg

[Cambridgite]

Just out of curiousity, why did Calgary make travel WITHIN the downtown area free? I've never seen that before.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Just out of curiousity, why did Calgary make travel WITHIN the downtown area free? I've never seen that before.

In Portland there's a "fareless square" which is about 1 sq mi downtown in which ALL transit is free, not only the LRT but buses and streetcars as well. And it's been expanded to include neighbourhoods adjacent to DT (inner NW and NE) as well. Calgary's is okay but not nearly as comprehensive as Portland.

I'm pretty sure the monorail peoplemover thing in Miami is free DT too.

I can't say why these free fare zones exist but it's not unique to Calgary.

[mersar]

Just out of curiousity, why did Calgary make travel WITHIN the downtown area free? I've never seen that before.

Makes it an attractive option for just hopping around the core. It's been like that for as long as I can remember, and while there have been some calls to remove it (it would make changing to anything but a proof of fare system difficult if it was left) I don't think it will go anywhere any time soon.

[frinkprof]

The free fare zone was originally introduced back in the 80s to encourage downtown office workers to use the LRT during lunch hour rather than getting in their car and driving to restaurants. Also, since there are much travel between office buildings, they wanted to encourage people to use the LRT for this as well.

There has been talk over the past few years of expanding the free fare zone to include the Zoo on the northeast-bound line and to Sunnyside station in the northwest. Also, there as a proposal by one alderman a year or two ago about expanding it to Victoria Park-Stampede station to help deal with the "parking problem" downtown. The idea was that people would park at the Stampede grounds and ride the LRT the rest of the way into downtown. The proposal was defeated in council.

[Boris2k7]

For other transportation connections, should I even bother to leave the "Via bus route _______" or would the simple icons and name be sufficient? See the Inter-City bus boxes on the image below to compare.

I think it would be sufficient to put a label for connections in the legend, and then remove the redundant text from the map.

[Corndogger]

The free fare zone was originally introduced back in the 80s to encourage downtown office workers to use the LRT during lunch hour rather than getting in their car and driving to restaurants. Also, since there are much travel between office buildings, they wanted to encourage people to use the LRT for this as well.

There has been talk over the past few years of expanding the free fare zone to include the Zoo on the northeast-bound line and to Sunnyside station in the northwest. Also, there as a proposal by one alderman a year or two ago about expanding it to Victoria Park-Stampede station to help deal with the "parking problem" downtown. The idea was that people would park at the Stampede grounds and ride the LRT the rest of the way into downtown. The proposal was defeated in council.

Didn't Edmonton get rid of their free zone about a year ago? Not sure how that is working but Calgary has considered doing the same thing along with what you've mentioned. Free fare to the Stampede facilities for convention delegates would be great but I'm not sure I would support free for everybody or to anywhere else.

[Greco Roman]

Didn't Edmonton get rid of their free zone about a year ago? Not sure how that is working but Calgary has considered doing the same thing along with what you've mentioned. Free fare to the Stampede facilities for convention delegates would be great but I'm not sure I would support free for everybody or to anywhere else.


I've been in Edmonton for over 3 years now, and I don't recall a "free fare zone" in the downtown.

[governorgeneral]

For other transportation connections, should I even bother to leave the "Via bus route _______" or would the simple icons and name be sufficient? See the Inter-City bus boxes on the image below to compare.

The icons are sufficient, on both the connexions to the bus stations and the airport.

Is the new font Trebuchet? Any particular reason for that font? I think Arial looked cleaner (esp the lower-case "g"s), but if you're making the change, you should be consistent with the top title and small print in the lower right corner too.

The "Bridgeland / Memorial" name is cut off.

If you're going to keep the explanatory text (why?) in the City Centre Free Fare Zone in the highlighted area on the map, you should at least be consistent with the text on the legend. "Travel Within This Area Is Free" vs "No Charge For Travel Within This Area" - why the difference in text?

The main readability/useability issue (esp for people not familiar with the CTrain) is still how to illustrate the one-way stations downtown. Again, double-arrows as you mentioned will make it clear both lines do serve each stop; and a "westbound trains only" text or somesuch in the legend will explain the meaning.

[MichaelS]

I've been in Edmonton for over 3 years now, and I don't recall a "free fare zone" in the downtown.

Edmonton used to have a free fare zone downtown, but I think it has been gone since 2004.

[Greco Roman]

Edmonton used to have a free fare zone downtown, but I think it has been gone since 2004.

Interesting; must have phased it out before I got to town. Oh well.

[Jeffsey500]

The icons are sufficient, on both the connexions to the bus stations and the airport.

Is the new font Trebuchet? Any particular reason for that font? I think Arial looked cleaner (esp the lower-case "g"s), but if you're making the change, you should be consistent with the top title and small print in the lower right corner too.

The "Bridgeland / Memorial" name is cut off.

If you're going to keep the explanatory text (why?) in the City Centre Free Fare Zone in the highlighted area on the map, you should at least be consistent with the text on the legend. "Travel Within This Area Is Free" vs "No Charge For Travel Within This Area" - why the difference in text?

The main readability/useability issue (esp for people not familiar with the CTrain) is still how to illustrate the one-way stations downtown. Again, double-arrows as you mentioned will make it clear both lines do serve each stop; and a "westbound trains only" text or somesuch in the legend will explain the meaning.

Those problems are getting fixed. Still picking fonts, not decided. The Free Fare bubble text on the map has been replaced with text describing the directional arrows.

[frinkprof]

Are you planning to pitch this map to Calgary Transit, or is it for some other purpose?

[Jeffsey500]

Are you planning to pitch this map to Calgary Transit, or is it for some other purpose?

This map is intended to keep me from being bored out of my mind and as a reason to procrastinate term papers... Such a great endeavour isn't it.... :P

[governorgeneral]

Are you planning to pitch this map to Calgary Transit, or is it for some other purpose?

If you can come up with a more useful and better-looking map than the existing one (and I think you have already) you absolutely should pitch it to Calgary Transit. If not to adopt it outright, then to at least make changes to the current one to make it user-friendly.

[MalcolmTucker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/PortlandTriMetMAXSystemMap.png From Wikipedia

Maybe this would be a good system map to model off?

Even if all the stations are on the same street, maybe for clarity the map (the Calgary map that is) should be split like the free fare zone on this map.

[governorgeneral]

That's Portland, right? Where the split appears on the map, the lines actually do split to either side of a block (eg Pioneer Square), on different streets. So westbound trains board on on the north side, eastbound on the south side. To change directions, you walk across the square to the next street.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/ggphotographs/65-road%20trip-2-portland/DSCF3049.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/ggphotographs/65-road%20trip-2-portland/DSCF3050.jpg

(Photos: me)

Whereas Calgary's are on either side of the same street, aren't they? When you want to change, you just cross the road. I think splitting the line would make it more confusing, it will make you think you have to go to the next block. (Though it should be obvious in real life, seeing the tracks (and maybe even the actual stations?) right across the street, right?)

[Arch26]

In Portland there's a "fareless square" which is about 1 sq mi downtown in which ALL transit is free, not only the LRT but buses and streetcars as well.

Seattle also has one and it also includes all transit. Actually, I don't think it's all that uncommon at all.

[You Need A Thneed]

I think its confusing to have the bend on the NE lone between Franklin and Barlow instead of between Franklin and Marlbourough, like it is. If people weren't familiar with the system, they might think, "first station after the curve" or something like that, and then miss their station.

[Beltliner]

I think its confusing to have the bend on the NE lone between Franklin and Barlow instead of between Franklin and Marlbourough, like it is. If people weren't familiar with the system, they might think, "first station after the curve" or something like that, and then miss their station.

Not sure what you mean--the official line map (http://www.calgarytransit.com/Routes/lrt_stop.html) has the turn between Franklin and Marlborough, while the current Wikipedia map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CTrain_Route_Map.svg) has Franklin somewhat less accurately in the middle of the turn. Though realistically, the turisti are in far greater danger of falling prey to operator indifference:


Turist: Izzat dere Pacific Place up bah Mahrl-burra, Ellie-Mae?
Turistka: Shurr is, Jimmy-Bob!
Recording: Bing, boo-oop. Franklin.
Turist: Almost they-ur, Ellie-Mae!
Turistka: But Jimmy-Bob, thuh sigh say-uz--
Driver: Mzzrlbzzrzz Stzztzzn. Mzzrlbzzrzz. Nzzt Frzznklzzn! Mzzrlbzzrzz!
Turist: Cain yuh git the doh-ur, Eliie-Mae?
Turistka: Aww, shucky-darn, Jimmy-Bob! Thuh lai-ut waint out!
Nelson (pointing): Ha-ha!

[You Need A Thneed]

Not sure what you mean--the official line map (http://www.calgarytransit.com/Routes/lrt_stop.html) has the turn between Franklin and Marlborough, while the current Wikipedia map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CTrain_Route_Map.svg) has Franklin somewhat less accurately in the middle of the turn. Though realistically, the turisti are in far greater danger of falling prey to operator indifference:

what I'm saying is, shouldn't the map reflect what is reality? The actual line turns north between Franklin and Marlbourough, shouldn't the map show that?

[Champion3]

/\ I second that.

[Jeffsey500]

How close can we get? Schematic maps will always have this problem in order to be easy to read. I mean look at the size of downtown on the map. Its huge compared to the others, especially the south.

I can try to move that station, but space is very very limited. I've already blown by original dimmension restrictions several times.

Side-> Heres a more recent working copy of the map. I've tried to add more imprtant bus lines and I'm about halfway through. The shape of the map is not making it easy at all and its looking like a horrible mess (hence I've stopped halfway through).

http://peopledumb.com/Calgary%20LRT4.jpg

[Beltliner]

what I'm saying is, shouldn't the map reflect what is reality? The actual line turns north between Franklin and Marlbourough, shouldn't the map show that?

^^^ Ohhh, that map. Whoops. :rolleyes:

Good point on the overall issue of schematics versus maps, though. A map at true scale shrinks the downtown to illegibility, so you would need an inset, whereas a more legible, evenly-spaced schematic...errm...loses the scale.

[Boris2k7]

Jeffsey500: Unlike what others may be telling you, I don't think you should worry about the shape of the lines. If they are going in the general direction they should it doesn't really matter. Exaggerate the sizes where it matters but otherwise just try to balance compactness and readability.

[WhipperSnapper]

great map but I wonder if it would be easier reading if the city centre stations had a shape more in tune with an eight (two connected circles common on other maps) with an arrow in each circle

[Champion3]

If they are going in the general direction they should it doesn't really matter.
90 degrees is still in the "general direction?"

[Boris2k7]

90 degrees is still in the "general direction?"

Let me clarify, I'm talking about any changes to the shape of the lines. He could make the lines go straight in their respective directions from Sunnyside and from Bridgeland/Memorial, and it wouldn't make a difference in my interpretation.

My observation of people on the CTrain suggests to me that they care more about the name of the next station and figuring out where it is relation to their destination, and don't read much into the shape of the lines on a schematic.

[governorgeneral]

Looking good!

- that font's (on the map itself) more like it! But the Trebuchet on the main title and the Accessibility box, and the remaining Arial "201" and "202" in the legend should be changed to match. Consistency.

- the extra bus routes, where they lead to destinations (like hospitals) look great! Are you planning to add more destinations to the other routes? Otherwise, why are they there? It must be hard to decide on which routes to include... have to balance between being useful and complete, and cluttering the map with unnecessary detail.

The 20/72/73 and 4/5 crossover west of 70 Av Terminal really needs some destination to justify it. (Or do those routes work as express service that extend the CTrain network (like the B-lines in Vancouver)? In which case, including their "stations" would be worthwhile too.)

- the text "City Centre stations are offer travel in one direction only. as shown by arrows." is more confusing than having nothing at all, I think. The simplest way is really just to include the arrows in the legend, and "westbound trains only" / "eastbound trains only". Two arrows over each line within a single circle/ellipse will clearly convey that 1) each stop is really a single station, and 2) both lines service each station.

- "39th Avenue South" should be consistent with the other numbered roads: "39 Avenue South".

- the text "No Charge For Travel Within This Area" should be cleaned up, "No charge for travel within this area". Just type and capitalise as normal writing would. There's A Reason Books And Newspapers That People Have To Read Are Not Written Like This.

- the pictogramme for walking connexions shouldn't be captioned "Bus Connections to Other Services", just the bus graphic.

Save for those details, it's coming together beautifully.

For another perspective, you should consider posting it on the graphic design forum Typophile (either "design" at http://typophile.com/forum/5 or "composition" at http://typophile.com/forum/28). Since they do visual communication with normal people for a living they probably have good feedback on what works and doesn't.

[jeremy_haak]

great map but I wonder if it would be easier reading if the city centre stations had a shape more in tune with an eight (two connected circles common on other maps) with an arrow in each circle

I believe that this would normally indicate two separate stations on two separate lines that permit a connection between them.

As for the map reflecting the actual physical configuration of the network (when the line turns north, for example), don't bother trying to achieve this. Look at the Tube map for London, and then compare it with a tube map that reflects the true location of lines and stations. The two don't mesh at all, except in the most abstract way. Instead, the topological relationship between different stations, lines, destinations, and possibly landmarks (rivers are common ones) is all that is important.

[mersar]

The 20/72/73 and 4/5 crossover west of 70 Av Terminal really needs some destination to justify it. (Or do those routes work as express service that extend the CTrain network (like the B-lines in Vancouver)? In which case, including their "stations" would be worthwhile too.)


The 72/73 are a circle route that run counter to each other and connect to 3 of the LRT stations. 20 runs N-S as a fairly major route (with one of the highest frequencies in the city during rush). They don't really have any other 'stations' beyond the terminals at the LRT stations, and the one additional one at the University. The 20 has a similar terminal at Mount Royal College.

Including them as is works pretty well, the only thing that sticks out to me is how they aren't connected above the legend. Aside from that good work :)

[Jeffsey500]

Looks like the consensus wants the bus lines. So they will stay. It will take time to get all the things corrected. I know the fonts and some of the sentences are still a mess. They're coming along.

What else should I include? I will add Mount Royal College (but I still need an icon).I'm trying to edge away from shopping malls (too many and not transit friendly).

Are there any major non-LRT station terminals in the south? I rarely ever get down there.

Also, somebody did mention pitching it to transit. But in that case, changes need to happen as the main font that's now used is not licensed for that (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

Sidenote: YAY! You can draw things into Google Maps now! If there isn't already, somebody should make a location train map in Google.

[mersar]

Someone had made a CTrain map in Google previously, see http://www.ctrainmap.com/

[WeavedWeb]

Like the map!

A few notes though:

-While I agree that the shape of the map does not have to be perfect, it seems like the south line is way to far over. Just think of where the Southeast line would fit on the map. If it's possible, this should be moved to be more central in the map.

-I like the overall graphics of the map, but I feel like they are crunched together. Are you able to use a larger background so there is more room for the bus routes and a better orientation of the city?

Keep up the good work!

[Jeffsey500]

^^^I'd like to, but moving the entire line will be "difficult" none-the-less. I'd trying to avoid a larger background as the map is already ~30% larger in each dimension than I had originally hoped. I might just go and "screw" my original size boundaries, but thats undecided for now.

Unfortunately not much can get done in the next 2 - 3 weeks as time's short when exams are coming.

But thanks for the compliment!

[Jeffsey500]

Alright, heres the next update of the map. Added a lot more thing. A lot more work to be done still.

PS. I know the line is quiggley by Rockyview and the font in one of the boxes is wrong. I'm also aware of the wording in the legend. You don't have to tell me, I already see it! :P

Large Image (Please wait to load 401KB)
http://www.peopledumb.com/Calgary%20LRT2.jpg

[mersar]

Nice. Aside from the things you mentioned, the only thing that stands out to me is that the 72/73 don't actually go to the Rockyview. Other then that, amazing work on it.

[jeremy_haak]

I know this is probably going to contradict what other people have said, but as an outsider to Calgary Transit, most of those bus routes shown have absolutely no meaning to me; they're just clutter. I'd recommend sticking to how you originally had it: show what bus route goes to important destinations such as hospitals and bus stations and such. Without showing what streets they run on, they mean nothing right now and I'd still have to go to a more comprehensive source for additional information.

[Jeffsey500]

@ Jeremy

I'm actually with you. I don't really like the bus routes that much. Too everywherey (and yes I know thats not a word). I'll post a version with or without to coompare later.

(Can you convert a post into poll?)

[MalcolmTucker]

What about just putting on the BRT route, you should be able to distill it into a number of stations giving the low number of stops.

Plus you could show that the lets say number 72 intersects the lrt and brt and people could extrapolate the routing.

[Jeffsey500]

Theres also the option of putting the 301 routes, and all bus transfers from major outside downtown train stations and the 78 ave terminal.

Maybe I should make a poll... And I think I will

Added: And here it is!

Vote on how you want the train map to look!
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=142588
You can see all the previous maps there too

[Jeffsey500]

Alright Finally, exams are over. (UC Engineering Calculators are EVIL)

http://peopledumb.com/Calgary%20LRT7.jpg

[srperrycgy]

Clean and Simple. I like it. :cool:

[ummagumma66]

one thing I notice is that you have Foothills General where Rockyveiw General should be, other than that, it looks awsome....

[You Need A Thneed]

one thing I notice is that you have Foothills General where Rockyveiw General should be, other than that, it looks awsome....

yeah, that, and the 72/73 bus doesn't connect up to Dalhousie station.

[stamps]

one thing I notice is that you have Foothills General where Rockyveiw General should be, other than that, it looks awsome....

When did Foothills hospital change their name to Rockyview, and if they did what is the Rockyview hospital called now??

[Jeffsey500]

^^^ Opps =D

Its fixed now. See any other problems?

http://peopledumb.com/Calgary LRT8.jpg

[mersar]

Still the problem that the 72/73 don't go to Dalhousie, both those routes and the 20 are at Brentwood. And Crowfoot opens 2008, not 2009.

[governorgeneral]

Congrats on finishing exams.

Nice map. Very clean.

Maybe just put a space between the airport and hospital bubbles, and the Childrens and Foothills bubbles, so they're not touching - it makes it look like they're in the same place (are they?).

And should the legend "City Centre - McKnight-Westwinds" specify the terminus stations as "10 Street West - McKnight-Westwinds"?

And should the name "39th Avenue South" drop the "th" to match the numbered streets stations (ie, without "st"/"th" after the digits)?

And is the font totally consistent on the whole map? Eg, the numbers on the bus route and walking distance icons: the "72/73" and "57" look different (missing the left-side vertical nick on the top of the 7, compared to the 7s on the rest of the map), and the zeros look different shaped too. And the "North" on the legend, the curl of the "t" looks longer than the other "t"s. Is that still the previous Trebuchet font?

Or maybe it's just my late-night eyes.

[Sean.Perrin]

Hey, those are nice, thanks. Though I thought both would be called sans serif?

I used a cover of the British highway font (http://www.triskele.com/roadgeek-fonts) for some signs at the hospital I work at. We were having "problems" with people using the showers. Being a road sign font I thought it would be nice and clear even at a distance:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/ggphotographs/63-R1-2/DSCF3429.jpg

LOL!!!!!

Great idea on the new transit map though.... looks great. You should sell this to the city. The current map is USELESS!

[Sean.Perrin]

and as a reason to procrastinate term papers...

I thought of a lot of things like this to do for the same reason last week. Funny how that works! Student procrastination is actually a fascinating phenomenon... should be studied... at some point.

[Jeffsey500]

I thought of a lot of things like this to do for the same reason last week. Funny how that works! Student procrastination is actually a fascinating phenomenon... should be studied... at some point.

We should write an article on it. Although, I doubt our procrastination will ever let us finish it.... =D

Happy Holidays!

[Jeffsey500]

finally, I think its done. Ugggggg

http://peopledumb.com/private/Calgary%20LRT3.jpg

[caveat.doctor]

Looks good! In the legend, the "North" still doesn't look like the right font (note the curl of the "t") and the 202 terminal stations could be specified ("10 Street West" instead of "City Centre") - but otherwise, it should be the new CTrain map. Did you do the one on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary_Transit too - maybe you can update that entry.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Please change "offer travel in directions shown by arrows only" to "offer travel only in directions shown by arrows." The first makes it sound as if there is some symbol other than an arrow that users should ignore.

[Tangsan]

good picture

[Wooster]

Very nice, I like the latest iteration.

[Jeffsey500]

^^^ Why thank you!

[srperrycgy]

Don't forget to send the new map to world.nycsubway.org to replace your existing one. ;)

[Jeffsey500]

I tried, but he hasn't responded yet. I'll try emailing him again when I finish my "Accessibility on Transit" project for school.

[JBB]

I gotta say, i think that map is fantastic jeffsey, far better than the LRT maps they have in both Edmonton and Calgary. The one on the trains in Edmonton with the hexagons makes no sense and needlessly complicates things.

There's actually an exhibit on the history of the diagrammatic London underground map at the London Transport Museum. I found it really interesting how it developed and how the current map has largely stayed unchanged since the 1930's. A true testiment to the brilliance of the original creator (Harry Beck).

[lightrail]

I've been in Edmonton for over 3 years now, and I don't recall a "free fare zone" in the downtown.

Edmonton had a fare free zone from when the system opened in 1978 to about a few years ago when it was discontinued. The fare free zoned was for travel between Grandin, Corona, Bay, Central and Churchill stations during the weekday midday only.