[raisethehammer]

done.

[SteelTown]

Got it! Holy crap these are good renderings lol

[SteelTown]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/Hamilton-Ed-Square-aerial-10801.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/Hamilton-Ed-Square-Bay-King-10801.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/Hamilton-Ed-Square-Bay-Main-10801.jpg

[DC83]

^^ Sweet! Awesome pics!!

I think everyone should find their trustee and email them letting them know your feelings about their most important decision ever: http://www.hwdsb.on.ca/about_us/trustees/index.aspx

[raisethehammer]

did you guys read the piece on RTH?? you see those other options?? Wow! How lame is that eh?? Imagine this very real scenario - Hamilton city hall being located in a mall and our main school board being located in a building almost as ugly, and with as much parking, as a Walmart out in the middle of suburbia.
Wow...what a message that would send to the Canadian business/retail industry. Yep, we are alive and well in the Hammer!!

Let's hope to heck that the school board does the most obvious thing here.

[raisethehammer]

I'm assuming everyone can read these drawings ok?? The shorter buildings (institutional ones) are facing Bay St between King and Main.
I asked them why the surroundings aren't 'Hamilton' and they said they were short on time in trying to put this together so they focused on the actual site instead of the surroundings.

[SteelTown]

I emailed Wes Hicks to support the city's proposal. I hope he'll reply.

[raisethehammer]

I emailed Judith Bishop...we'll see what she says. I directed her to the article on RTH too.

[matt602]

Those renderings are amazing. Something like that would instantly transform that entire area of the downtown for the better. The Hilton/condo's are the HMP/Federal site would go up right after.

[SteelTown]

On CH Judith seemed to support staying in the downtown core.

[beanmedic]

Green is an interesting choice for roof colour.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I love this project and the fact that it erases that damn empty lot across from the Standard Life Centre. Nonetheless I hate that we have to dispose of the existing Board of Ed building in the process. It's a beautiful piece of modernist architecture--years down the road people are going to be bemoaning the fact that it was disposed of.

[SteelTown]

Green is an interesting choice for roof colour.

Probably is grass. It's a new thing to help reduce the use of air conditioning by keeping the heat out.

[raisethehammer]

yup, I agree with fastcars, and yes green symoblizes the green roofs they are going to develop.

[realcity]

White roofs are also an option. They are cheaper but better than an asphalt/gravel roof for the enviro.

Look at this location!! It's about as good as it can get, everything is within a short walk. Why would anyone prefer to work on the mountain wasteland? So they can drive to Upper James and spend 35 minutes getting a coffee in traffic.

[realcity]

I would prefer those hotels to taller, maybe 5-6 floors each with at least 250 rooms. Who knows when the Connaught will be finished. Downtown needs more hotel rooms.

[raisethehammer]

I think this would look great next to AGH and a restored city hall. Also, the rendering for the 15 storey Hilton across the street looked pretty good too...green glass.
And right now there are plans in the works for 2, 14-storey hotels on southwest corner of Bay and Main behind BofMontreal.

I love the 2 rooftop restaurant/cafe's proposed for the hotels. According to city hall sources there is huge interest in doing this hotel component by various hoteliers.

[BCTed]

I love this project and the fact that it erases that damn empty lot across from the Standard Life Centre. Nonetheless I hate that we have to dispose of the existing Board of Ed building in the process. It's a beautiful piece of modernist architecture--years down the road people are going to be bemoaning the fact that it was disposed of.

I agree. That is a very nice building. I will never miss the HMP dealership/garage a block away, which was nothing but a box, but I will certainly miss this one if it comes down.

[raisethehammer]

I agree. That is a very nice building. I will never miss the HMP dealership/garage a block away, which was nothing but a box, but I will certainly miss this one if it comes down.

you know this building is in downtown Hamilton right??

[BCTed]

you know this building is in downtown Hamilton right??

??

[raisethehammer]

Here's my response from Judith Bishop:

Thank you for sending me this article.

Trustees are very interested in staying down town if this is possible, and the City's proposal is eliciting a great deal of interest. We expect a major report from staff in April.

There are also comment in the article about the closure of schools. Like most school boards, we are experiencing declining enrolment , and so have schools with empty spaces. On top of this many are in need of repair. Currently HWDSB has the fifth amount of empty spaces in schools in the province. At the same time we will have to build new schools in the new suburbs, where there are accommodation problem such as Waterdown, Binbrook, Meadowlands, and Winona. We have received little provincial funding to build new schools and all the work we have accomplished to this point has been achieved by selling our assets: land, and buildings we do not need. Indeed on e of the drivers for a new Education Centre is the fact that the sale of sites currently being using for non-instructional uses would probably pay for one new elementary school. So we are proud that by 2010 we will have built 5 new schools in the lower city, Hillcrest, Cathy Wever, a new Prince of Wales, a new Queen Victoria, and a new Dr Davey, which replace and consolidate schools. A solid contribution to the down-town.!

It is good to hear how much support there is for us to remain down town, and to find that others , apart from ourselves, see that we have a contribution to make there.
Regards

[chris k]

Just emailed my trustee Wes Hicks. hopefully they make the right deciosion. I'm optimistic to say the least.

Those buildings are so beautiful:rolleyes:

[SteelTown]

I have a feeling Wes is for the Mountain location, he represent West Mount. People should bombard the crap out of his email account. He hasn't replied back, I don't expect a reply until Tuesday.

[raisethehammer]

and you have correctly identified one of the biggest problems in Hamilton politics (aside from the constant corruption) - people only representing their own wards or districts, even to the point of hurting the entire city (and thereby, their own ward).
I was stunned the other day to hear Lloyd Ferguson talk about the importance of downtown Hamilton. He said it's just as important to the image and success of Ancaster or other suburban areas.
He's right...I just don't think he believes it. Regardless, it was nice to hear a suburbanite say it, even if it was just to look good on the radio.

[BCTed]

and you have correctly identified one of the biggest problems in Hamilton politics (aside from the constant corruption) - people only representing their own wards or districts, even to the point of hurting the entire city (and thereby, their own ward).
I was stunned the other day to hear Lloyd Ferguson talk about the importance of downtown Hamilton. He said it's just as important to the image and success of Ancaster or other suburban areas.
He's right...I just don't think he believes it. Regardless, it was nice to hear a suburbanite say it, even if it was just to look good on the radio.

Why does everything have to be so "us vs. them" with you? Your mindset is bizarre. Their interests may not always be perfectly aligned, but it is not as if downtowners and suburbanites come from different planets.

The fact that this guy represents Ancaster does not preclude him from considering downtown Hamilton to be important.

[SteelTown]

Got a reply from Wes Hicks......

Andrew,


Thank you for your input and I am still gathering data to help me make an informed decision in April. I do recognize the value in staying in the downtown core.


Wes Hicks

[realcity]

read Judith Bishop "If possible"

Re closing schools: And what is ever to become of those neighbourhoods without a school now. Do they just continue to hollow-out? Because new families won't move into the neighbourhood if there is no school.

This is the result of poor planning and not mixing a neighbourhood with enough types of housing and land uses. If a builder just builds one type of home -- for the intended market -- ie large family homes with parents in their 40s or established 30s and 2.2 school aged children.... of course the neighbourhood schools will be half empty in 25 years. The City Planning Dept lets builders do this. It is short sighted planning, a quick injection of cash but not a long term sustainable/livable city. Selling half empty schools is not a sustainable funding model either.

[chris k]

Wes Hicks replied to me aswell.

Hi Chris,


You present some strong rationale for a joint partnership with McMaster and the private sector, which I agree with completely.


I will continue to gather data, and make an informed decision in April.


Wes


Hopefully he sees these letters as positive influence and not some sort of propaganda.

[raisethehammer]

In Hamilton, anything other than the status quo IS propaganda.

[SteelTown]

When it gets closer to voting time in April we should create a simple letter perhaps someone with time could type one out and we'll copy that and each person will email them out, did the same for the possible transit increase and it worked in the past.

[raisethehammer]

good idea Steeltown.
it is kind of sad that we have to petition our local school board to stay downtown.
I'm not familiar with other cities...does anyone know of a big-medium city who's schoolboard is in the suburbs?

[DC83]

^^ I don't know about Canadian cities... but they're weird in America. Every suburb has it's own school board for some reason, and people choose where they want to live based on which school board they want their kids in. And heaven forbid they put their kids into the inner-city school board!

Wow. I watch too much HGTV! haha

[raisethehammer]

yea sorry..I meant in Canada. Most of the States is a suburban hell-hole.
thats why places like Portland, Seattle, San Fran and Boston are such great examples to learn from. They're practicing livability and sustainability in the most unsustainable nation on earth.

[flar]

In St.Catharines, the Niagara BoE is along the QEW.

[hamiltonguy]

^^ I don't know about Canadian cities... but they're weird in America. Every suburb has it's own school board for some reason, and people choose where they want to live based on which school board they want their kids in. And heaven forbid they put their kids into the inner-city school board!

Wow. I watch too much HGTV! haha

Mostly cause the suburbs are in different counties. I think it's Similar to how the Halton, Peel, and Toronto School Boards are separate.

[raisethehammer]

I'm thinking of cities...Hamilton's size or bigger. I realize places like Halton or Peel might have theirs in the suburbs...well, the entire area is suburban so I guess it's a no-brainer.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote

Most of the States is a suburban hell-hole

You lived in the U.S.--I'm calling you out on this because it's a flippant argument laced with the typical dose of Canadian Anti-Americanism. It's also factually inaccurate considering "most" of the U.S. is actually rural.

[fastcarsfreedom]

LONDON, ONTARIO
The Thames Valley Board of Education operates three HQs--in London, Woodstock and St. Thomas. The London Education Centre is not downtown but on the eastside of the city in the Highbury Avenue/Dundas Street area.

WINDSOR, ONTARIO
The Greater Essex Country District School Board maintains it's headquarters in central Windsor. It is west of the immediate downtown core, but well within the central urban area of the city.

The Windsor-Essex Catholic District School Board left downtown Windsor for new facilities on the far west side of the city recently--the new HQ was built on surplus land at an exisiting high school.

OTTAWA, ONTARIO
The Ottawa-Carleton District School Board headquarters are in the suburbs--specifically the Hunt Club district of Nepean.

Those are a few of the example of urban school boards I can think of--sort of a mix I guess--suprised to learn that of those listed Windsor is the only one with an HQ near downtown.

[Jon Dalton]

The Barrie school board (Simcoe County Board of Education) is way out in the sticks.

[raisethehammer]

Quote

Most of the States is a suburban hell-hole

You lived in the U.S.--I'm calling you out on this because it's a flippant argument laced with the typical dose of Canadian Anti-Americanism. It's also factually inaccurate considering "most" of the U.S. is actually rural.


yes, you're right...most of the US is rural...most of their population (that I encountered) live in suburban hell-holes.

[realcity]

^ most of the US is anti-urban-city. Living in a city does not comply with their libertarian views. City life requires too much cooperation for most Americans, so they prefer a sprawling ranch, only accessible by a SUV, that they can protect with their own firearms and do what they please on their private property.


I hope Hamilton isn't aspiring to be a Barrie......

[Jon Dalton]

I hope Hamilton isn't aspiring to be a Barrie......

What? Why on earth not?

[Jon Dalton]

yes, you're right...most of the US is rural...most of their population (that I encountered) live in suburban hell-holes.

Canada is 60% suburban by population (according to "Creeping Conformity: How Canada Became Suburban, 1910 - 1960"). I'd be interested to see how the US compares.

My gut feeling, from the impressions I've had through various travels, is that the number is about 10% higher in most places but New York, Chicago, etc. would offset the national figure.

[raisethehammer]

NY and Chicago might offset the figures, but places like LA and Phoenix will help balance them. Phoenix was the worst city I've ever been to hands down. It was horrible. Why anyone would retire there is beyond me. It makes Upper James and Rymal feel like Kensington Market in Toronto.

[markbarbera]

Quote

Most of the States is a suburban hell-hole

You lived in the U.S.--I'm calling you out on this because it's a flippant argument laced with the typical dose of Canadian Anti-Americanism. It's also factually inaccurate considering "most" of the U.S. is actually rural.

If you are speaking stictly from a geographic land-mass point of view, then you could say that most of the U.S. is rural. However, from a geo-political point of view, it is not. According to a US statistical survey in 2000 (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/census/cps2k.htm), nearly 80% of the US population lives in an urban setting. So it is all perspective. From the perspective of a human being living and working in the US, then it is mostly urban. But from the prespective of an annoying gnat gad-flying about the country aimlessly, then it is mostly rural.


So, this entire conversation is related to the Family Medicine Centre how?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote

^ most of the US is anti-urban-city. Living in a city does not comply with their libertarian views. City life requires too much cooperation for most Americans, so they prefer a sprawling ranch, only accessible by a SUV, that they can protect with their own firearms and do what they please on their private property.

This is perhaps the least surprising post I've ever read here. It consistently amazes me how Canadians paint themselves as idealistic and worldly people and then support the image they paint for themselves by making ridiculous generalizations about others (particularly the U.S.). Property rights?--the heathens!!! I live in the suburbs, drive a pickup and own firearms--what does that make me? Uncanadian? American? Stateless? What about the significant portion of the U.S. population that are not gun owners? That own Priuses?

Start making arguments that stand on their own merit and I'll start cutting you some slack.

As neo-urbanists I would be curious to know what the mindset is as far as growth (particularly explosive growth) in places experiencing population booms--Phoneix is a fantastic example because it has grown so quickly. I suppose Barrie would be a good example more locally. What sort of growth does the neo-urbanist ideal propose for areas such as these? The truly vibrant urban areas of places like Chicago and NYC are the result of decades of organic growth--something that is hard to replicate.

As for school boards, my suspicion is that most probably moved as a result of a need for new facilities and the cost-effectiveness of doing so by building on (at least what I suspect in most cases) land that is already board-owned. For the record I don't want to see the HWDSB leave downtown--I want those jobs in the core. Nonetheless, boards have a fiscal responsibility to both the taxpayers and the students they serve--when public money is in play fiscal oversight is crucial (and frankly, not practised enough).

RTH, people move/retire to Phoneix because the weather is better than it is in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. Same for Albuquerque, Santa Fe, Palm Springs and any number of desert locales that are not called Las Vegas. The Rio Grande Valley in South Texas is a retirement hotspot now also. I guess FL has gotten too expensive and/or too humid for some. I'll take the sugar white sand and salty breezes on the Gulf coast of FL anyday over the desert. To each his own.

[markbarbera]

^^^^^
Again I ask, what does this have to do with the proposed Family Medical Centre?

Quote
Start making arguments that stand on their own merit and I'll start cutting you some slack.


Start posting comments directly related to the thread's subject matter and you'll improve your credibility here.

[realcity]

you'll notice i never said anything was wrong with it. I just said what they value. Without judgement, they simply prefer personal Liberty over cooperation.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Actually markbarbera credibility is measured here by how closely one's political views align with the majority of contributors.

It appears to me that this discussion, about School Board HQs, devolved into the typical 'argument' here where everyone gets together and talks about how terrible the suburbs are. Each of my posts addresses the issue of the location of the HWDSB headquarters. You don't have to agree with the points I make or my view of the world--but if posters are going to come on here and make comments that are baseless generalizations, I have every intention of defending my points--and to be frank, I don't care what thread they appear in. If every thread on this forum can turn into a Noam Chomsky lecture then I think it's acceptable that I defend my viewpoints alongside those of others. Lots of posts here have been off-topic--interesting that you chose mine to single out.

realcity knows how all 300 million Americans feel--apparently life and politics are far less complicated than I believed.

[hamiltonguy]

I'm thinking of cities...Hamilton's size or bigger. I realize places like Halton or Peel might have theirs in the suburbs...well, the entire area is suburban so I guess it's a no-brainer.

I was actually talking about different school boards for the suburbs and the cities in reference to something someone said about school boards like that in the states.

[Goldfinger]

^^^^^
Again I ask, what does this have to do with the proposed Family Medical Centre?



Start posting comments directly related to the thread's subject matter and you'll improve your credibility here.

Mark, give it a rest.

[markbarbera]

With respect to the renderings, I suspect the project is envisioned to be done intwo phases, with the first phase being the hotel and the Board of Ed building along King Street. Since they will be located in the empty parking area, the buildings could be finished, then the board can move prior to demolision of the current Board of Ed building (sigh), thereby allowing the second phase to be built soo after the deed is done.

I have to admit the renderings look good. Experience tells me though that what ends up here will bear little resemblence to those drawings. After all, they are simply conceptual.

[SteelTown]

Remember the Family Medicine Centre needs to open by 2010 so the School Board will be demolished well the new School Board is being built. Basically everything facing Bay St will likey be phase 1.

That rendering is not a conceptual plan it's an actual rendering, I've seen other conceptual plans before this was developed. Of course a few things may change but the whole idea, material, footprint, landscape, etc, will remain the same. If the School Board approves the City's plan than the architects will take this rendering and develop the blueprints.

[markbarbera]

If the School Board approves the City's plan than the architects will take this rendering and develop the blueprints.

Exactly, and it is this stage where the big changes usually occur (when final costing realities and construction limitations become clear). Look at the original drawings for the ROM expansion in Toronto, then look at the final product - not exactly as shown.

Of the buildings in the drawing, teh one identified as "City Hotel' gives me concern. Certainly the least attractive building of the lot, and it being the one being planted upon the grave of the existing architectual beaut is a bit of salt on the wounds...

[SteelTown]

Mac mulls Plan B for downtown med centre

March 03, 2008
Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator

Time is running out on McMaster University's proposal to build a multimillion-dollar family medicine centre downtown.

Unless the university can be assured that the board of education site at Main and Bay streets can be bought and the health centre up and running three or four years from now, the "fallback plan" is to build the new med school at the McMaster Innovation Park in the west end.

And if the centre is built at the education site, the university wants the city to kick in at least $10 million worth of assistance.

John Kelton, the university's dean of health sciences, says he's worried that if it takes too long to secure the downtown board site, the $15 million Mac is asking from the province to help build the medicine centre will be lost.

Though the province hasn't committed the money, Kelton says it's "unofficially interested" because it wants to train more family doctors and have them set up practices in Ontario, a key component of the planned centre.

"If we put it downtown and we couldn't get it done in time, the province is going to appropriately say, 'Let's build this in some other city,'" said Kelton.

"The most important thing for me is to secure provincial funding and to know that the province wants us to go ahead with this."

Kelton says the McMaster Innovation Park, at the former Camco site at Longwood Road, is a strong alternative.

"It's near highway access. We own the land. There's land ready to develop and dig this summer."

Kelton said the board site is still the preferred option. But because the university would have to buy and develop the land, it has already put together a "back of the envelope" request asking the city to kick in about $10 million to help offset those and other costs.

"Part of the reason we would like the city to come to the table is to even the playing field."

Kelton says he's aware the city has serious fiscal challenges, so if helping foot the bill doesn't fit into its vision, "it would be appropriate for the city to say they can't support it."

The university's decision to go downtown is not contingent on the $10 million in help, but it is a consideration, he said.

The university hasn't formally asked the city for assistance, but Mayor Fred Eisenberger and some senior city staffers have been briefed.

Eisenberger says it would be "problematic" if the university was looking for hard cash, but council and staff are ready to discuss other ways of helping.

Businessman and philanthropist David Braley has already donated $10 million in startup money to the centre, which could end up costing as much as $100 million.

Gord Moodie, co-ordinator of downtown incentives for the city, acknowledges that timelines and provincial money are now a factor for the university.

But Moodie, like the mayor, still sees them as a player in the city's ambitious plan to redevelop the entire block where the board now sits.

"Basically, I think they don't want to be stuck in one spot and if this falls off the rails for whatever reason, they have a Plan B."

If McMaster's family medicine centre lands elsewhere, Moodie isn't worried about the overall redevelopment.

"If they pull out, we could have another user without a problem."

The city's just-released business plan proposes locating the school board's administrative office, the city's public health department, two private hotels, and McMaster's family medicine school or "other users" at the site.

The plan envisions a potential commitment from the city of $41 million in grants, interest-free loans and leasing arrangements.

The city would also be responsible for constructing a $17.8-million parking facility.

Moodie says the grant and loans would eventually be recovered through new tax assessment. The parking facility would be paid for by parking revenues.

Though it's not clear how long the school board will take to decide whether to buy into the plan, Eisenberger is confident it won't drag on.

"I would think sometime by June we'll have some clear direction where this project is going."

[raisethehammer]

FYI....I should have mentioned this sooner, but didn't see the relavence...until now!
I was chatting with a city hall source the other day about stinson.
At the end of our chat this person said to me "oh by the way, no matter what you read or hear, Mac is still on board with the downtown project and things look good".

I didn't pay much attention to the comment since I hadn't heard anything contrary about the project. Until today.

[flar]

^^just trying to get the school board off their butts?

[raisethehammer]

yep...good luck!

[RePinion]

Are these two hotels for the site in addition to the Hilton proposed for the HMP site? I know there's a shortage of hotel rooms in the city, but it sounds like we're setting ourselves up for a glut ...

I am very fond of the Board of Education building but I do hope this project succeeds ... having a branch of the med school downtown will certainly bring up the core's prestige and credibility - and besides, it just makes sense for our most important institution to have a major facility downtown

[raisethehammer]

Are these two hotels for the site in addition to the Hilton proposed for the HMP site? I know there's a shortage of hotel rooms in the city, but it sounds like we're setting ourselves up for a glut ...

I am very fond of the Board of Education building but I do hope this project succeeds ... having a branch of the med school downtown will certainly bring up the core's prestige and credibility - and besides, it just makes sense for our most important institution to have a major facility downtown


try telling that to the school board. lol.

yep, these 2 hotels are in addition to the Hilton across the street.
Also, the Vranich clan is looking to build 2, 14 storey hotels on the south side of Main in the old HMP used car lot.
That's 5 new hotels in the Bay/Main area.

[RePinion]

Is the Hamilton market really that starved for hotels?

[raisethehammer]

they say it is....I'm no expert, but I do recall hearing some stats showing how few hotels we have even compared with small cities like London and Oakville.

[oldcoote]

Is the Hamilton market really that starved for hotels?

Yes.

[DC83]

they say it is....I'm no expert, but I do recall hearing some stats showing how few hotels we have even compared with small cities like London and Oakville.

Well London is far from small hahahaha But YES, they have WAY more hotel rooms than Hamilton does (or did even b4 Connaught closing).

The problem isn't with room space, but rather convention facilities. The city cries every year b/c we lose key conventions to our competitors such as London and Toronto. We currently have ONE convention centre. (why LIUNA doesn't court conventions to LIUNA Station is beyond my understanding).

With the increase in convention centres, we will infact see an obvious increase in conventions coming to town, and therefor need rooms to house those involved in the show and all those coming to visit.

But to be honest, I don't think we need THIS many hotels! Concentrate on getting people living downtown before anything.

[RePinion]

But to be honest, I don't think we need THIS many hotels! Concentrate on getting people living downtown before anything.

That was certainly my bent on the subject. Clearly some hotels are needed, both for accomodations and convention purposes, but five in that one area? Plus the ones slated for elsewhere in the city? I didn't know Hamilton was that much of a destination.

That being said, I have no problem with a bunch of hotels. They probaby won't interfere with the more important project of increasing full-time residents in the core. And if they're moderately high end hotels, they project an image of quality for the city. The presence of a Hilton is something of a confidence vote for the city, as is a Crowne Plaza - I just wish the Hilton were slated to be a city Hilton and not the suburban Homewoods Suites variation.

[BrianE]

My wife used to work at the Admiral Inn, (Dundurn and York) She can attest that back in 03- 04 this city was terribly under serviced in the decent hotel market. Aside from the Admiral, Sheraton and the one near Main St and the 403. She was of the opinion that the other hotels downtown were disgusting and not worth staying there at any price. She would routinely take in customers who mistakenly booked at the Ramada, or that roach motel on Main and Catharine (or Caroline, i forget) or the Airport Inn attached to the Hooters on upper james.

And on nights when there were concerts or sports tournaments... forget it. Burlington has more hotels that we do and a lot of their business is spill over from people wanting to stay in Hamilton but cant' because of lack of room. (As a side note, visiting Americans routinely get completely confused by the 403/QEW interchange. "Just give me an exit number damnit! What is all this QEW Hamilton, 403 Hamilton? Just tell me exit number!!!")

However, there are a lot of proposed hotels at the moment, if they all get built I think there is a serious posibilty of there being too many rooms and not enough people. (except for maybe a few times during the year)

[HAMRetrofit]

I think the hotels are needed. The ones there already are crap. What is with people in Hamilton, there is an obvious market for these things there and people constantly are like "we don't need x...we need y". This type of thinking is what holds things back. Because a lot of x and y are needed to bring people downtown. You need a critical mass of projects whether they be hotels, condos, retail, or seniors homes. So just accept people testing the waters for a while to get the ball rolling. The stronger the market gets the better the projects will get. The crappy ones will be the first ones to be redeveloped.

[RePinion]

I think the hotels are needed. The ones there already are crap. What is with people in Hamilton, there is an obvious market for these things there and people constantly are like "we don't need x...we need y". This type of thinking is what holds things back. Because a lot of x and y are needed to bring people downtown. You need a critical mass of projects whether they be hotels, condos, retail, or seniors homes. So just accept people testing the waters for a while to get the ball rolling. The stronger the market gets the better the projects will get. The crappy ones will be the first ones to be redeveloped.

I think it's utterly stupid to suggest that we just sit back and tacitly approve everything which the developers propose. First and foremost, because most of us have a fairly specific notion of how we would like the downtown to evolve (which often doesn't correspond with the very short term and narrow visions endemic to developers in this city). I don't doubt that there are some developers who would readily fill the downtown with cheap seniors homes if it were economically viable to do so - because the land is cheap downtown and there is a constantly growing need for inexpensive elder housing. But what sort of critical mass would this be? What sort of energy and economy could a downtown full of infirm people on fixed budgets support? I simply cannot bring myself to believe that most of the developers in this city truly have the wellbeing of the downtown at heart. History has shown quite unequivocally that they do not. I think it has also shown that they lack the intelligence and foresight to turn this city's fortunes around.

Regarding the hotels, the point is that the existence of a market to support the number of hotels proposed isn't OBVIOUS. Such a market may in fact exist, I don't know - that's why it's worth discussing.

[SteelTown]

Right now the hotel situation is sort of a monopoly market, no competitive hotel rates. With more hotels the hotel rates will go down.

HEFCI at majority of the time lose big conference or convention needs because the lack of hotel space. During the last Grey Cup in Hamilton there were no hotel space, tt was an embarrassing moment. The last World Cycling all the hotel space was sold out a year before the event, had to shuttle some athletes from Niagara Falls to Hamilton.

So obviously yes Hamilton is in need of more hotel space. More hotels doesn't hurt. If the hotel goes down some developer will instantly buy the building and covert it into condos, pretty simple to do.

Oh and for the Medicine Centre Dave Braley is the BIG push to force this into the downtown core. He'll be pissed if they can't do it in the downtown core and McMaster doesn't wanna upset its largest donator.

[HAMRetrofit]

^ RePionion you completely missed my point. I was saying that you need not discriminate in the beginning by imposing restrictions on the above mentioned building uses. I am not saying that the city should approve everything. There has yet to be construction of any of these things. No new construction is happening. The proposals that I am seeing on this site all seem reasonable. They should be approved. If there was to be a flood of 100 retirement homes I would say okay there needs to be some restrictions (this will not ever happen). Three to four would be fine. Five new hotels is only going to be a boost to the city. Reality is not all 5 will be built. The critical mass of these five proposals is the promising thing. This is private investment so the persons developing them know what market is viable to a certain amount of risk.

[DC83]

Oh and for the Medicine Centre Dave Braley is the BIG push to force this into the downtown core. He'll be pissed if they can't do it in the downtown core and McMaster doesn't wanna upset its largest donator.

I was under the impression that the money was only available IF the centre locates downtown? Do you think he'll pull his funding if they decide to locate at MIP instead?

Hopefully rth is right and this is all just a ploy to get the HWDSB off their ass' and wake up re: downtown.

[RePinion]

So obviously yes Hamilton is in need of more hotel space. More hotels doesn't hurt. If the hotel goes down some developer will instantly buy the building and covert it into condos, pretty simple to do.


This is certainly possible, but I don't think it's as easy as you suggest. It's not like a hotel provides a turnkey conversion opportunity for a condo. The buildings are set up very differently. When hotel to condo conversions first started happening, in places like Manhattan where the Waldorf and the Pierre converted some of their floors, these were usually with the intention that the owners would not occupy the units as primary residences and wanted access to the hotel services. I don't really know what's been going on in the conversion market since then, but it's not as though hotels are being converted to condos left, right, and centre.

But as I say, it is possible - I just don't think it's going to be case of "Oh, my hotel idea really crapped out, so I'll just take down the Hyatt sign and put up a condos for sale sign instead".

[RePinion]

HAMRetrofit, if I missed your point I apologize.

My point is that I wasn't pessimistically trying to claim that a proposal for 5 hotels was outrageous. It just seemed, prima facie, a little excessive to me and I wanted to sound it out. I think as many proposals as possible should be encouraged for the downtown. I would want them to be serious proposals, however.

[SteelTown]

So I'm reading over the business plan that the city has created for the School Board and well the School Board would be complete idiots if they don't agree with this plan. Basically they'll only have to pay $5 million but the School Board will request funding from the province so the School Board could end up paying ZERO for this whole development.

The city is making a sweetheart deal for them, they are going to pay for the underground parking, parking revenue will be used to cover the cost. Paying zero is a lot better than getting no sweetheart deals from the city if they build up on the Mountain.

I'll post the whole business plan tomorrow.

[SteelTown]

So here's how it's going to go.....

The School Board sells the land to the Hamilton Realty Capital Corporation for $5,750,000 and of course a set of land will be made for the School Board. With the Hotel tax (from the two prposed hotels) the city will transfer all revenue from the tax over the 5 years to the School Board, they'll collect $4,724,000. So that's a total of $10,474,500 that the School Board will generate. Total cost of construction of a new School Board is determined to be $15 million. So that's $4,525,500 that the School will end up with. The School Board will request the province pay for it.

The city will pay for the underground parking as well. Funny the underground parking cost more than construction of the School Board building ($17.8 million for the underground parking to have 792 spaces)

[HAMRetrofit]

^ this is why transit use is so important. Policies requiring huge amounts of parking on downtown properties is what really kills residential development. Underground parking is very expensive and can turn what seems to be a simple straight forward development into something that needs to be extremely large to become profitable. The lower the vehicle count for people living in a building the more profitable the construction can become.

[SteelTown]

More information....

School Board building 75,000 sq ft
75,000 @ $200 per sq ft = $15,000,000

Hotel A - Main St 150,000 sq ft
Hotel B - King St 200,000 sq ft
Total square footage 350,000 sq ft

4 star hotel typical cost $185 sq ft, creating approximately 450 rooms.

350,000 @ $185 per sq ft = $64,750,000

Underground parking

792 parking space @ $22,500 per space = $17,820,000

The city would lease 60,000 sq feet for Public Health department over 15 year period. Lease cost $20 per sq ft = $18,000,000.

[hamiltonguy]

What isn't mentioned is that the school board could raise even more money by selling the properties that would be made surplus by this proposal.

[chris k]

What isn't mentioned is that the school board could raise even more money by selling the properties that would be made surplus by this proposal.

I mentioned that to my trustee when i sent him an email.
It didnt sound like it was his favourite option but made it sound like he considered it.
:cheers:

[JT Jacobs]

Is the Hamilton market really that starved for hotels?

As a frequent out-of-town visitor to Hamilton, and someone who works in the academy, I can attest to the lack of quality hotel rooms in town. All it takes is one single conference for the prime rooms to be soaked up. If you haven't had the foresight to book early, you'll be staying at the Airport Inn, something I did a few years ago that I'm still recovering from.

McMaster University, as a major medical-doctoral institution, has conferences all the time. Add our second-to-none health industry--the number one employer now in the city--and you have the potential for a lot of visitors who require decent rooms at any given time. Hamilton will increasingly become a conference destination, too.

Last spring, my wife and I decided to drop into town and surprise her family for their anniversary. There was one conference in town that night, and we spent the night in the pre-renovated Ramada: an experience I can only recount as, to borrow from Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, "the drizzling shits."

So, yeah: let 'em build tall, glitzy hotels in Hamilton!

[raisethehammer]

As a frequent out-of-town visitor to Hamilton, and someone who works in the academy, I can attest to the lack of quality hotel rooms in town. All it takes is one single conference for the prime rooms to be soaked up. If you haven't had the foresight to book early, you'll be staying at the Airport Inn, something I did a few years ago that I'm still recovering from.

McMaster University, as a major medical-doctoral institution, has conferences all the time. Add our second-to-none health industry--the number one employer now in the city--and you have the potential for a lot of visitors who require decent rooms at any given time. Hamilton will increasingly become a conference destination, too.

Last spring, my wife and I decided to drop into town and surprise her family for their anniversary. There was one conference in town that night, and we spent the night in the pre-renovated Ramada: an experience I can only recount as, to borrow from Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, "the drizzling shits."

So, yeah: let 'em build tall, glitzy hotels in Hamilton!


this is so accurate it's not even funny.
Our company has brought in speakers and teachers from time to time over the years and we realized a long time ago to book waaaaaay early.
It doesn't just take one conference. It can be one kids hockey tourney, one concert, one movie shoot. Believe me, we know from experience after having times where we missed out on hotel rooms because a minor hockey tourney was going in town. How can a city our size have all good hotel rooms booked due to one event?? crazy.
I say bring on the hotels.

Not to mention, it really boosts the city's image. We had a couple come from Ohio and another from NYC. They absolutely loved Staybridges. Said it was the best nights sleep they'd ever had in a hotel. Those are the good memories we want people to have when they visit us.
Not the 'Hooters Inn' or old Ramada.

[SteelTown]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Hotel facing King St is Darko himself. It would make sense as he's trying to take over the Sheraton Hotel. That way the two hotels facing each other won't have direct competition during a convention or special events, both will have the same hotel rates. Plus from what I heard the hotel facing King could possibly be a Westin, which is part of Starwood Hotels, they also own the Sheraton franchise.

[thistleclub]

The problem isn't with room space, but rather convention facilities. The city cries every year b/c we lose key conventions to our competitors such as London and Toronto. We currently have ONE convention centre. (why LIUNA doesn't court conventions to LIUNA Station is beyond my understanding).

With the increase in convention centres, we will infact see an obvious increase in conventions coming to town, and therefor need rooms to house those involved in the show and all those coming to visit.

Not that the current stock couldn't stand improvement/competition, but there are a number of convention facilities in the market, just not always branded as such. Tourism Hamilton pushes Copps and Hamilton Place as sister facilities to the Convention Centre proper. For organizations anticipating only a few hundred attendees there are banquet hall/convention facilities like Marquis Gardens in Ancaster, Liuna Gardens in Stoney Creek and Carmen's out on Stonechurch. Not to mention similar scale of ballroom/convention facilities in most mid-sized hotels.

I think this is probably visible in Toronto as well: You have big rooms like the Metro Toronto Convention Centre, Direct Energy Centre and Ricoh Coliseum, then suburban/light industrial facilities like Mississauga's International Centre, and meeting/conference facilities of varying size within hotels such as The Fairmont Royal York, Four Seasons or Old Mill Inn.

But there's obviously value in having more of both conference facilities and hotel rooms, and not always the value you expect: It's no coincidence that McMaster's planned expansion in Burlington is sited near a mess of hotels as well as the city's two Convention Centres (Burlington, BurlOak) and the smaller Atrium Conference Centre.

[JT Jacobs]

this is so accurate it's not even funny.
Our company has brought in speakers and teachers from time to time over the years and we realized a long time ago to book waaaaaay early.
It doesn't just take one conference. It can be one kids hockey tourney, one concert, one movie shoot. Believe me, we know from experience after having times where we missed out on hotel rooms because a minor hockey tourney was going in town. How can a city our size have all good hotel rooms booked due to one event?? crazy.
I say bring on the hotels.

Not to mention, it really boosts the city's image. We had a couple come from Ohio and another from NYC. They absolutely loved Staybridges. Said it was the best nights sleep they'd ever had in a hotel. Those are the good memories we want people to have when they visit us.
Not the 'Hooters Inn' or old Ramada.

Exactly: Hamilton is so underserved by the service industry.

Per capita, I'd guess that Hamilton has the fewest standard hotel rooms of any city its size (population: 720,000 according to StatsCan: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo05a.htm ).

Some people might not think a city like Hamilton merits the arrival, say, of the Intercontinental, or other big brands that typically have large tower hotels in major downtown centres. I would argue that Hamilton is more than deserving.

We have to realize that people who use hotels, use them for other purposes than just vacationing. So, while Hamilton isn't necessarily a prime vacation destination at the moment, it is nonetheless still a destination for all kinds of things.

RTH provides a comprehensive list of that kind of event, but let's not forget about such major events like the Junos and the Labatt Brier, and so forth. And what about business travellers (to Stelco, Dofasco, Hamilton Health Sciences, and on and on)?

Why should we shoo these visitors to Toronto's hotel rooms when we can have them stay at our fine hotels? It's great for the local economy to have them spend in our downtown, after all, not Toronto's or Burlington's.

I have an Australian friend who calls this kind of mentality the "cultural cringe." The kind of hand-wringing that suggests that we're not good enough. He claims that Canadians in general suffer from it. I see it a lot in Hamilton, sadly. Hamilton has been mired in that attitude for far too long. It's time for us to leave it behind at least for the simple reason that visitors to our city don't have this mental baggage and are thus frequently charmed by what they find here.

Sorry for maundering.

[Hammer Town]

I have an Australian friend who calls this kind of mentality the "cultural cringe." The kind of hand-wringing that suggests that we're not good enough. He claims that Canadians in general suffer from it. I see it a lot in Hamilton, sadly. Hamilton has been mired in that attitude for far too long. It's time for us to leave it behind at least for the simple reason that visitors to our city don't have this mental baggage and are thus frequently charmed by what they find here.

Sorry for maundering.

I agree 110% on this the biggest problem with Hamilton is the people who live here and have a poor attitude about it. I am slowly getting sick of defending it

[the dude]

ya, i'm tired of having to defend this city to fellow hamiltonians - too many cannibals in this town.

[HAMRetrofit]

Represent your city strongly and more often, eventually the cannibals will realize they should not eat their own.

Tell them not to shit where they eat.

[SteelTown]

Thinking big
City's 'Education Square' proposal includes underground parking lot

March 27, 2008
Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator

The city is willing to spend $17.8 million on a 792-space underground parking lot in its bid to keep the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board offices downtown.

It's one part of a business plan for what city planners call Education Square, an ambitious redevelopment of the entire block bounded by King, Main and Bay.

Education Square would include three public buildings -- housing the school board, a new McMaster University school of family medicine, and city public health -- and two private hotels.

City-funded underground parking would be built on two levels beneath the three-acre site.

City downtown renewal staff submitted the Education Square plan to the board, which is contemplating the future of 100 Main St. W. The board says its 1967 centre needs millions in repairs and is too small for all its non-teaching staff.

"We really want to keep them downtown," said Ron Marini, city director of downtown and community renewal. "It's public policy of the city that we want the major seats of government and governance in the downtown core."

The city says the hoteliers have agreed to funnel to the board five years of city tax breaks they get for building downtown.

The other option the board is weighing is a $33-million plan that would see it build a new headquarters on the Jerome site, a treed plot the board owns near the Linc and Upper Wellington.

The board was originally planning to choose between Education Square and the Jerome option April 14. But a board spokesperson said that because the city plan arrived late, that vote will be delayed.

The city's downtown renewal office estimates the board can pay just $4.5 million for a new headquarters in Education Square, if the province chips in $1.4 million in provincial tax rebates.

The board could make $6.8 million from selling land it doesn't need, and the hoteliers would give them $4.7 million over five years using the tax rebates, the city says.

City council has approved the Education Square business plan, which proposes the board sell its 3.3-acre site to the Hamilton Realty Capital Corporation, a for-profit agency with city ties. The corporation would carve it into five pieces and co-ordinate the sale of each parcel to the agencies and hoteliers. If city public health isn't relocated to Education Square, the city is talking with "other medical" institutions to be part of the site.

"We can't have all of our eggs in one basket, so if anyone backs off, another one steps up," Marini said.

The board has sent the city's business plan to consulting firm KPMG for advice. A board spokesperson said that a full report on the Education Square option will likely go to trustees in May.

[drpgq]

I would vote for a school trustee that made it the Board employees' responsibility to find their own parking.

[realcity]

^ me too... good point.

Employers give you a job and say "how you get here or where and how you store your car is your problem, just get to work".

[realcity]

I think the City has covered all angles. So when the Board (whom really wants to move to the mountain) says they want to proceed with the Jerome concept, the City can argue they have no good reason to leave the core and force them to remain downtown. These choices are a no-brainer. The Jerome concept is a piece of garbage to this. And it's a good thing, because when it was up to the Board themselves to come up with options, they set-up all the other options to all fail against the Jerome site. The Board's own alternatives to the Jerome site were pathetic, so as to make an obvious, good, prudent choice when the moved to the mountain. I'll bet the Board is so pissed this City Plan was revealed it put a real wrench in their agenda.

My bet is they choose to not do nothing. The space and aging building issues are phoney. Regular maintainance is all that's required. My roof on my house needed new shingles last year and my basement is leaking, does this mean I tear-down my house? I would, if someone else paid for it.

read the story here
http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?issue=2008/02/14

[raisethehammer]

I like this plan. The city is really on the ball here.
imagine our downtown with all the new hotels, education square, connaught project, King St infill/reno's, new VIA/GO etc....man, we could have a pile of cranes in the sky at once in the next year or two if things come together.

[JT Jacobs]

I like this plan. The city is really on the ball here.
imagine our downtown with all the new hotels, education square, connaught project, King St infill/reno's, new VIA/GO etc....man, we could have a pile of cranes in the sky at once in the next year or two if things come together.

I agree. It certainly seems as though the city has anticipated all of the Board's moves. Let's hope that this latest plan comes together and actually happens. It looks exquisite. That and MAC's Innovation Park will do wonders for the core.

And about having to defend Hamilton to outsiders perpetually: that day is coming to an end. When the big papers like the Post and Star talk about the artist migration to Hamilton and the difference in housing costs between TO and Hamilton, it's only a matter of (short) time before Hamilton reaps the obvious rewards of attracting more immigrants and Torontonians.

When I was in highschool in the 1980s (gasp!), I remember reading some Newsweek (I think) profile of a wealthy couple in Buffalo--I've long since forgotten just who they were--and they remarked about how the rest of the USA had the wrong perception about Buffalo, and how they didn't care. The profile concluded with them laughing it off and not giving a shite about what the rest of the country thought because, to them, they lived in the best city in the country anyway. They concluded by remarking, "let it snow, let it snow, let it snow," as though to revel in the stereotype that they knew more about.

A sage approach, I thought then, and routinely think about now, when considering Hamilton and the rest of our country's view toward it.

Sorry for the verbiage: two Longmorns down the hatch . . .

[LikeHamilton]

I was talking to Sophia Aggelonitis M.P.P. a few weeks ago about this and she said the provinces share of this project would be about 15 mil. The province would like them to stay downtown.

[ikerrin]

What Hamilton is really missing is a good youth hostel. Every two bit town in Europe has them but Ontario has ... maybe 7? Why Hamilton doesn't have one is beyond me. How do you even get something like that going?

The best thing about youth hostels is that they work best in renovated old buildings that have some intrinsic interest. In Ottawa the hostel is in a former jail. What down and out building would you recommend for a hostel in Hamilton?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Not sure how/where the hostel bit fits in--but let me go on the record as saying the serious lack of hostels is one of the things I love about North America.

Poo-poo the parking proposal if you must--but if it keeps the Board downtown, who gives a damn.

[matt602]

Not sure how/where the hostel bit fits in--but let me go on the record as saying the serious lack of hostels is one of the things I love about North America.



Elaborate?

[fastcarsfreedom]

I was too slow to make the connection between the hotel developments and the contributor mentioning hostels.

matt602--you're looking for me to elaborate on why I'm not clamoring for a hostel--or more hostels? Firstly, I don't see the market demand--and secondly, I can't think of a less appealing way way to spend my time or money. Shared accomodation in the first year of university was plenty for me--if I'm travelling I'll gladly take some Motel 6 with a loud ice machine over a hostel. If I'm paying to sleep somewhere, I'd prefer to to not have to fall asleep around people I don't know--and having my own pissoir is a deal-breaker too. I can actually see how these things do well in Europe and Asia--but this is neither of those places.

[ikerrin]

I was too slow to make the connection between the hotel developments and the contributor mentioning hostels.

matt602--you're looking for me to elaborate on why I'm not clamoring for a hostel--or more hostels? Firstly, I don't see the market demand--and secondly, I can't think of a less appealing way way to spend my time or money. Shared accomodation in the first year of university was plenty for me--if I'm travelling I'll gladly take some Motel 6 with a loud ice machine over a hostel. If I'm paying to sleep somewhere, I'd prefer to to not have to fall asleep around people I don't know--and having my own pissoir is a deal-breaker too. I can actually see how these things do well in Europe and Asia--but this is neither of those places.

I should explain a bit too. I was responding to the hotel discussion a page back or so. I wanted to say that its nice that Hamilton is on the business traveller map, but you shouldn't overlook the student traveller option.

Maybe you don't like youth hostels, but 20 year Australian kids backpacking around Canada do. A hostel would draw them to Hamilton from Toronto, or form convenient stop on the way to Niagara. Its not just backpackers. The Ottawa hostel often hosts athletes training for nordic skiing. The Hamilton hostel could host cyclists or visiting grad students doing research at Mac. Its a key segment of the hotel market and its crazy that a city of Hamilton's size doesn't have one.

You need a Mountain Equipment co-op too!

[flar]

You need a Mountain Equipment co-op too!

We're getting one, they decided to put it in Burlington.

It will be accessible to everyone in Hamilton with a car, since the 403 and QEW both lead to it. As far as stores like MEC and Ikea are concerned, the Hamilton market is served, and Oakville too for that matter.