[Cambridgite]

I decided to start a thread because I was curious to see what the population of Canadian downtowns are and how many people work in them. I know it varies a lot from one city to the next, as does the definition of downtown. I know there will be a lot of inconsistencies here because some downtowns are defined more generously than others. Some have an uptown/midtown/suburban downtowns. Some have more than one single historic downtown core throughout their metro region.

This is not a dick measuring contest, so please recognize these differerences and that not all comparisons are valid. I'm curious though, how many people live and work in your downtown? Provide a source and also show by a map how your downtown is defined. You can also include things like mid-town, uptown, other core areas. Just make sure they are separate and the methodology is consistent.

[Cambridgite]

In 2006:

- 1,842 lived in downtown Kitchener

- 12,445 worked in downtown Kitchener

http://www.kitchener.ca/pdf/downtown_monitoring_report_2006.pdf



Boundaries defining the downtown area.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/DowntownKitchenerProjects.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/DowntownKitchenerProjects.jpg

[Cambridgite]

For Cambridge in 2005. (secondary downtowns within region)

Population:

Galt - 2149
Preston - 1760
Hespeler - 561

Employment:

Galt - 1854
Preston - 1518
Hespeler - 484

http://www.city.cambridge.on.ca/planningdoc/Monitoring_Report_2005.pdf

Pages 13-15 in report show boundaries of each core area.

[Jimby]

Calgary's downtown commercial core has a population of 7,557 as of 2006. This doesn't include the East Village (2,032), West End (2,681), or Beltline
(16,662) populations. The Beltline population is increasing.
The daytime population downtown is substantially more at around 110,000.
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cns/community_social_statistics/downtown_commercial_core.pdf

[Boris2k7]

^ The 2007 population counts (from the census)

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9606/centralcalgarymapdf1.jpg

"Downtown"
Beltline (17,794)
CBD (7,523)
Chinatown (1,308)
East Village (2,201)
Eau Claire (1,645)
West End (2,635)

Downtown Total: 33,106


"Non-Downtown Adjacent Communities"
Bankview (5,251)
Bridgeland/Riverside (4,974)
Cliff Bungalow (1,845)
Crescent Heights (6,118)
Erlton (1,263)
Hillhurst (5,215)
Inglewood (3,291)
Lower Mount Royal (3,254)
Mission (4,448)
Ramsay (2,037)
Sunalta (3,241)
Sunnyside (3,731)

NDAC Total = 44,668


"Rest of Central Calgary"
Altadore (8,442)
Alyth/Bonnybrook (41)
Banff Trail (3,738)
Belaire (461)
Britannia (743)
Burns Industrial (0)
Cambrian Heights (2,060)
Capitol Hill (3,939)
Elbow Park (3,472)
Elboya (1,707)
Highfield Industrial (0)
Highland Park (3,660)
Highwood (2,158)
Hounsfield Heights/Briar Hill (2,940)
Killarney/Glengarry (6,528)
Manchester (597)
Manchester Industrial (0)
Mayfair (469)
Meadowlark Park (626)
Mount Pleasant (4,901)
Parkdale (2,064)
Parkhill/Stanley Park (1,545)
Point McKay (1,348)
Queens Park Village (428)
Renfrew (5,596)
Richmond (3,920)
Rideau Park (649)
Rosedale (1,586)
Rosemont (1,270)
Roxboro (415)
Scarboro (936)
Scarboro/Sunalta West (389)
Shaganappi (1,596)
South Calgary (3,517)
St. Andrews Heights (1,512)
Tuxedo Park (4,616)
Upper Mount Royal (2,588)
West Hillhurst (5,568)
Winston Heights/Mountview (3,684)
Windsor Park (3,772)

ROCC = 93,431


Total Population for Central Calgary area (2007) = 171,205
Total Employment for Central Calgary area (2005) = 209,044

While I do not have employment stats for each of the communities, it is safe to say that at least 70% (> 146,000) of them are located in the Downtown Area, as was alluded to by LFTC. It is interesting to note that Central Calgary's workforce accounted for 47% of the entire city's employment in 2005. This area is roughly the same size as the City of Vancouver IIRC.

[1ajs]

wow ^

i know winnipegs downtown pop is around 13,000 or so anyone got the rest of the stats for winnipeg

[LordMandeep]

around 700k for central Toronto and around 200k for the downtown downtown area, is the population figures.

Don't know employment.

[CCF]

Downtown Regina

1100+ people live in the immediate downtown, another 11,000 live in the immediate surrounding area.
25,000+ work in downtown Regina

Below is what constitutes as downtown Regina
http://reginadowntown.ca/images/downtownmap_large.gif

[Cambridgite]

^ The 2007 population counts (from the census)

How did you go about getting all of that neighborhood level data from the census?





Uptown Waterloo in 2006, from Census data.

Population: 2,658

Source

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/ct/CTdata.cfm?Lang=E&CTCODE=1651&CATYPE=CMA

Boundaries

http://geodepot.statcan.ca/Diss2006/Maps/Maps_Cartes/CTDA/ON/541/CTDA541-B-0102.00.pdf

Employment: Appox 8,000

Source - Bottom right of page 4.

http://www.city.waterloo.on.ca/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/DS_COMMUNITYPOLICY_documents/PS_DP_071006.pdf

[Boris2k7]

^ It's from the civic census data from 2007.

Added map to post.

[raggedy13]

From a couple different sources I've come up with these numbers and projections. Still a lot of holes though.

Downtown Peninsula...

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/raggedy13/downtown.jpg

1996...Pop.......61,899
.........Emp......132,095

2001...Pop.......70,030
.........Emp......140,000 (estimate in 2001)

2006...Pop.......87,973
.........Emp......149,000 (projected in 2001)

2011...Pop.......90,000 (projected in 2001)
.........Emp......158,000 (projected in 2001)

2016...Pop.......95,000 (projected in 2001)
.........Emp......167,000 (projected in 2001)

2021...Pop......100,000 (projected in 2001)
.........Emp.....175,000 (projected in 2001)

From the looks of it the 2001 population projections need some major revising.

"Central Area"/"Metropolitan Core" (Main St as eastern boundary)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/raggedy13/metrocore.jpg
9 sq. km

1996...Pop.......?
.........Emp......172,000

2001...Pop.......82,196
.........Emp......?

2006...Pop.......101,088
.........Emp......?


www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/dtp/pdf/DTP_presentation_fall_2001.pdf
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/commsvcs/planning/census/2006/index.htm
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/commsvcs/cityplans/employment/insightintoemployment.htm

[flar]

For Hamilton, the area bounded by Cannon, Queen, Wentworth and the Mountain Brow has a population of 31,595. This is an area of 4.08 square kilometers with a density of 7743.87 persons per square kilometer. According to the Downtown Hamilton BIA, there are approximately 30,000 jobs downtown.

EDIT: here's a picture of Hamilton's central business district:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/bwham/f1010008.jpg

[softee]

According to the 2006 census, 1439 people lived within the boundaries of North Bay's downtown business area. Adjacent downtown neighbourhoods would add several thousand more. I don't know how many people work downtown, I'll look into it.

Downtown census tract: http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/ct/ctdata.cfm?Lang=E&CTCODE=3631&CACODE=575&PRCODE=35&PC=p1b2t6

Map: http://geodepot.statcan.ca/GeoSearch2006/GeoSearch2006.jsp?resolution=H&lang=E&otherLang=F&census=Yes&DisplayData=Yes&NewImage=yes&layer=ct&IdentName=0005.00&IdentUID=3631

[O-Town Hockey]

....awaiting Thunder Bay stats, charts, graph, map, and photos.

[someone123]

If this area is considered "downtown" Halifax:

http://www.pbase.com/halifaxphoto/image/41083779/medium.jpg
(this aerial was assembled by me from some old satellite photos and is quite out of date)

The population was a little under 8,000 in 2006 (census tracts 008, 009, 004.1). There are about 20,000 people who work in this area.

[Cambridgite]

....awaiting Thunder Bay stats, charts, graph, map, and photos.

:haha:

Yeah, I'm actually surprised Vid hasn't said anything yet. If not providing us with Thunder Bay data, at least making some kind of vague Thunder Bay reference.

[PhilippeMtl]

Arrondissement Ville-Marie.

Pop: 78 876
Area: 14,49 km2

[rapid_business]

Boris. Are you sure you don't have the employment figures backwards? I'd think there are more people work DT now as opposed to '05.

[204]

around 700k for central Toronto and around 200k for the downtown downtown area, is the population figures.

Don't know employment.

The downtown population stood at nearly 169,000 last year, up from 102,000 five years earlier.

http://www.thestar.com/article/270694

[1ajs]

Boris. Are you sure you don't have the employment figures backwards? I'd think there are more people work DT now as opposed to '05.
your reading it wrong one is pop of the central area from this year and ones the number of workers from 2005

[Boris2k7]

Boris. Are you sure you don't have the employment figures backwards? I'd think there are more people work DT now as opposed to '05.

I only provided the employment figures for 2005... the other number is the population.

EDIT: Adrian beat me to it.

[1ajs]

map of the downtown the parking map from destination winnipeg is a little over kill in size to use so heres mts centers smaller version witch is more up to date aswell


http://www.mtscentre.ca/location/parking.jpg

almost all that area is cover in the photo
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/202/497269544_f89cc6fc1c_o.jpg
source google images from this blog http://iectomorph.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html

[Rico Rommheim]

^Yikes. Notice how the historic district is completely empty and peppered with empty lots, and then quickly turns into a low density residential area!

[Cambridgite]

^Yikes. Notice how the historic district is completely empty and peppered with empty lots, and then quickly turns into a low density residential area!

And I'm guessing this is where the thread takes a big downturn as these threads usually do...

Honestly, was it really necessary to point that out?! :rolleyes:
Most of us have eyes.

[Rico Rommheim]

Thanks for the concern and pointing it out even more.

What I was hoping to hear was someone (not from waterloo) to tell me why and how the historic district has gone to the dogs (if it has) or to simply tell me that I'm wrong. But based on my only and brief visit downtown winnipeg, my concern is legitimate. Winnipeg, like most NA cities has had its old districts destroyed in order to build parking lots and taller, uglier skyscrapers.

[Coldrsx]

I will try to find actual numbers tomorrow, but i believe 65,000 work downtown edmonton, 12,000 live and there are 25,000 students a day.

ill confirm shortly

[Andy6]

Thanks for the concern and pointing it out even more.

What I was hoping to hear was someone (not from waterloo) to tell me why and how the historic district has gone to the dogs (if it has) or to simply tell me that I'm wrong. But based on my only and brief visit downtown winnipeg, my concern is legitimate. Winnipeg, like most NA cities has had its old districts destroyed in order to build parking lots and taller, uglier skyscrapers.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. There don't really appear to be an unusual number of parking lots in that photo. Virtually none are in the "historic district" which, being full of various buildings, is somewhat misdescribed as "completely empty" (otherwise it would be a very strange "historic district").

[ScottFromCalgary]

Good quality photo of Winnipeg. Not flattering, just a good photo. BTW, I don't see many parking lots or single family homes.

[Cambridgite]

I'm not sure what you're referring to. There don't really appear to be an unusual number of parking lots in that photo. Virtually none are in the "historic district" which, being full of various buildings, is somewhat misdescribed as "completely empty" (otherwise it would be a very strange "historic district").

I'm assuming the historic district is not in the immediate foreground of the photo, but in between the CBD (Main/Portage) and the parking + low-rise zone in the immediate foreground.

And really, there are much worse cities than Winnipeg for excessive parking. Pretty much every core area in Waterloo Region has excessive surface parking, as much or moreso as Winnipeg.

If you want to see something really offensive....here's Houston, TX. I'm not sure if it's still like this.

http://static.flickr.com/54/119172270_834daaec77.jpg

All of a sudden, Winnipeg's parking problem isn't so bad.

[trueviking]

while i wont argue the existence of parking lots in downtown winnipeg, your assessment is not really correct...the photo is misleading

winipeg's exchange district is one of the most historically intact turn-of-the-century commercial districts on the continent.....it is actually a national historic site and is looking for world heritage status....the area has approximately 150 buildings, 120 of which predate 1914.....50 were erected before 1900.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3506/wpgballoon3cc8.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1707/24576427js4.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2096/41133436kx4.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5098/61731397xh3.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3600/111pk5.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3134/wpgballoon4bz8.jpg


winnipeg's exchange district was an industrial area....what you see in the foreground of that photo is the periphery of that district....i think the image is misleading because it it an area that transitions from the old warehouses to the century old residential neighbourhoods....its likely that those blocks were always marginal development....the majority of the area is intact.

the red is the exchange...to the left of it is what you see in the photo.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7431/37479386zb3.jpg



i also dont think that i would qualify the adjacent neighbourhood as 'low density'

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2143/86954161or0.jpg

[Coldrsx]

^anyone who argues differently just naive. However, it is the relative lack of use of the exchange that makes me sad. But i do see that changing and im hopeful of more.

[joelpiecowye]

good point,

there will always be something worse that you, but there will always be something better

as for Saskatoon Remax says Saskatoon has 2,470 people living in the downtown. City population is 202,340 and metro is 233,923

http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/19986/2585799060101335060S500x500Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2585799060101335060brKQTu)

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/pawly2099/Saskatoon2.jpg

http://www.saskatoon.ca/dtp/images/maps/downtown_area.jpg

[SteelTown]

For Hamilton, the area bounded by Cannon, Queen, Wentworth and the Mountain Brow has a population of 31,595. This is an area of 4.08 square kilometers with a density of 7743.87 persons per square kilometer. According to the Downtown Hamilton BIA, there are approximately 30,000 jobs downtown.

I never really knew the downtown Hamilton population but if that's accurate, 31,595, that's quite impressive.

[miketoronto]

According to the report done for the City of Toronto on downtown's future, Downtown Toronto has approx 400,000 workers. This stat has gone up and down over the years. During the early 90's downtown had as much as 418,000workers. It then declined to under 400,000, and is now back at the 400,000 mark, and hopefully growing :)

The area counted as downtown offically by the city of Toronto, is the area bounded by the lake, Bathurst Street, The Don Valley, and Dupont Street.


I don't have the exact number, but coming in second is Downtown Montreal with somewhere close to 300,000 jobs downtown.

[trueviking]

^anyone who argues differently just naive. However, it is the relative lack of use of the exchange that makes me sad. But i do see that changing and im hopeful of more.

i agree, but things are improving...

winnipeg has finally woken up and realized the gem that it has.....it is by far the fastest growing downtown area now.

i started working in the exchange 8 years ago and there was nothing there...it was so sad...all these beautiful buildings with empty storefronts and vacant floors...the population was something like 300.

today i hardly recognize the place....it surely has a long way to go to reach its incredible potential but this are changing quickly now.

there are 5 new condominium buildings being constructed that will eventually create a total of 350 new units....a number of the old buildings have undergone loft conversions.

on the retail side, in the last few years several trendy shops have finally started to move into the area....it has become quite a success story....several clothing stores, some great restaurants, furniture, jewlery, art shops and galleries, antiques, a music store, a new sneaker boutique....exactly the type of retail that you would want in a neighbourhood like that.

it has a long way to go, but the exchange has really made huge strides in the past few years...it no longer depresses me....i actually get excited when i walk around there now because there is something new every time.

[Andy6]

it has a long way to go, but the exchange has really made huge strides in the past few years...it no longer depresses me....i actually get excited when i walk around there now because there is something new every time.

I agree. The city as a whole seems more prosperous than at any point in my lifetime and the Exchange District is really starting to have more than just vague "potential".

[trueviking]

anyways, back to the topic of the thread....

winnipeg has 13 000 downtown residents (this was from 2001 and has likely grown since) with 70 000 downtown employees.

it is a difficult thing to compare though....the definition of 'downtown' can vary greatly....as an example of course is the great calgary beltline debate....it is certainly an urban neighbourood but it is geographically a huge area and is generally not considered 'downtown'.....if it is to be included then neighbourhoods like winnipeg's osborne village and edmonton's boyle street also need to be included.

[Cambridgite]

.....it is by far the fastest growing downtown area now.

I can agree with most of your post after checking out your development thread. Winnipeg is no doubt turning the corner and accelerating forward. However, I'm a little skeptical about this one statement. I'll believe it when I see the stats that prove it.

[Boris2k7]

it is a difficult thing to compare though....the definition of 'downtown' can vary greatly....as an example of course is the great calgary beltline debate....it is certainly an urban neighbourood but it is geographically a huge area and is generally not considered 'downtown'.....if it is to be included then neighbourhoods like winnipeg's osborne village and edmonton's boyle street also need to be included.

I knew that you would eventually say that... :D

I made my choice based primarily on character.

As little as 5 years ago, I would probably have agreed with you Trueviking, but now there are parts of the Beltline that are nearly indistinguishable from Downtown, and certainly will not be in a few years. It is also fundamentally different from surrounding areas like Mission or Inglewood, to the point where it is included in the Centre City Plan alongside the traditional downtown. The Downtown Business Association also includes the areas south of the tracks to 11th Avenue.

[trueviking]

^ i knew that you knew i would eventually say it.

i am not making a judgement about whether the beltline is downtown calgary or not...i am just saying that as an example that is what makes it a difficult comparasin....there are urban areas in most cities that you could argue are downtown.

[flar]

The 4 sq. km area that I quoted for Hamilton includes the high density Corktown and Durand neighbourhoods. I think Osborne Village should be included for Winnipeg's downtown population.

[Rico Rommheim]

while i wont argue the existence of parking lots in downtown winnipeg, your assessment is not really correct...the photo is misleading

winipeg's exchange district is one of the most historically intact turn-of-the-century commercial districts on the continent.....it is actually a national historic site and is looking for world heritage status....the area has approximately 150 buildings, 120 of which predate 1914.....50 were erected before 1900.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3506/wpgballoon3cc8.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1707/24576427js4.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2096/41133436kx4.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5098/61731397xh3.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3600/111pk5.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3134/wpgballoon4bz8.jpg


winnipeg's exchange district was an industrial area....what you see in the foreground of that photo is the periphery of that district....i think the image is misleading because it it an area that transitions from the old warehouses to the century old residential neighbourhoods....its likely that those blocks were always marginal development....the majority of the area is intact.

the red is the exchange...to the left of it is what you see in the photo.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7431/37479386zb3.jpg



i also dont think that i would qualify the adjacent neighbourhood as 'low density'

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2143/86954161or0.jpg

Thanks viking, that's what I was hoping to see. The density in the exchange district is staggering!

But I do certainly call these pics of the residential area as low density. Any neighbourhood made up of single family homes is low density in my book.

Thanks
see Cambridgite? Wasn't so bad was it?

[matt602]

The area counted as downtown offically by the city of Toronto, is the area bounded by the lake, Bathurst Street, The Don Valley, and Dupont Street.


Of course this would be the more "traditional" downtown area. Presently, the areas of Yonge/Eglinton, North York and even parts of Scarborough are incredibly dense and have fair amounts of workers within them. They could be considered downtowns in their own rights, I think. I wonder if there are numbers available on population/workers in those areas. Should be pretty interesting, especially for Yonge/Eglinton and North York Centre. Theres a TON of high rise condo's in both those places with a large amount of office buildings to match.

[Cambridgite]

see Cambridgite? Wasn't so bad was it?

No, not at all.



Also, I should be more specific about downtown Kitchener's boundaries and state that that's only the IMMEDIATE downtown area, which includes the city centre district, the warehouse district, the civic district, and the market district. There are few single family homes in this area and it most certainly is urban in nature.

There are another 10 "inner-city" neighborhoods outside of this which all have a stake in the recently built downtown community centre. Some of you may not consider them "inner city", since they are mostly single family homes built at lower densities than the outer suburbs, but that's okay. They were still built before the mass movement to the automobile after WW2 (with the exception of some minor infill) and enjoy a relatively grid-oriented street network (by KW's standards).

In the 2006 downtown monitoring report, the city states that downtown and the adjacent neighborhoods have a population of around 18,500. However, this doesn't include all of the inner city neighborhoods. So I still can't find what the population of central Kitchener is.

Here is the map of downtown, surrounded by its "inner city neighborhoods.

http://www.downtownkitchener.ca/sites/cityofkitchener/images/photos/1.1_map_large.jpg

http://www.downtownkitchener.ca/living_downtown/neighbourhoods

^In the above link, it lists out all of the neighborhoods, but it doesn't include them on the map (Auditorium is southeast of Central Frederick and Mill-Courtland is south of Cedar Hill and King East). In the same way, the downtown monitoring report doesn't include all of them either.

[trueviking]

just for interest sake, i was checking out the community profiles of winnipeg:

the official designation of downtown (west and east) has a population of 60 000, although i think few would argue that it is a true representation of 'downtown.' (eventhough it is geographically similar in size to calgary's CBD and beltline ;) )

if i were making the boundary of downtown winnipeg for the sake of comparasin to other cities, i would include these neighbourhoods, which have a total population of just under 37 000.....most winnipeggers would consider themselves to be downtown if they were in these areas.

an argument could be made to remove the 2000 people in the centennial neighbourhood between the health sciences centre and the exchange...and possibly the 400 people in armstrong point, but the 2000 people in point douglas could also be counted.

the grey map shows the size compared to the rest of the city....its about 6 sq. kms.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7473/94265573ei6.jpg

http://winnipeg.ca/census/2001/

[Boris2k7]

I should make a note that the size of what could be considered the "innercity" and "downtown" in Calgary is also a function of the city's girth and it's relatively unchanging suburban landscape. Stick 10 buildings of 3 storeys each along a street, put retail on the bottom of half of them, and suddenly you have an "urban" neighbourhood.

[Tarsus]

just for interest sake, i was checking out the community profiles of winnipeg:

the official designation of downtown (west and east) has a population of 60 000, although i think few would argue that it is a true representation of 'downtown.' (eventhough it is geographically similar in size to calgary's CBD and beltline ;) )

if i were making the boundary of downtown winnipeg for the sake of comparasin to other cities, i would include these neighbourhoods, which have a total population of just under 37 000.....most winnipeggers would consider themselves to be downtown if they were in these areas.

an argument could be made to remove the 2000 people in the centennial neighbourhood between the health sciences centre and the exchange...and possibly the 400 people in armstrong point, but the 2000 people in point douglas could also be counted.

the grey map shows the size compared to the rest of the city....its about 6 sq. kms.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4553/winnipeg2np5.jpg

http://winnipeg.ca/census/2001/

TV, I'm not sure the comparison of Winnipeg's East and West downtown communities (the official designation of downtown (west and east) has a population of 60 000,) is an accurate comparison to Calgary's beltline and CBD as far as area goes.

According to the above map the two yellow areas make the boundary area for Winnipeg's 'official' downtown area of 60,000 people. You can confirm, as I'm not 100% familiar. But it appears that the map below would be the rough area for those two neighborhoods.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7246/winnipegic0.jpg




This is the area that contains Calgary's CBD/Beltline/Chinatown/Eau Claire (~30,000)

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4893/calgaryna5.jpg


Anyhow, as mentioned earlier in the thread, this debate over what consists of a downtown area could go on and on. If you took the area of the two Winnipeg communities, which consists of 60,000 people, and compared the same area in Calgary, Calgary's area would be somewhere around the 45,000 people.

[Stephen Ave]

anyways, back to the topic of the thread....

winnipeg has 13 000 downtown residents (this was from 2001 and has likely grown since) with 70 000 downtown employees.

it is a difficult thing to compare though....the definition of 'downtown' can vary greatly....as an example of course is the great calgary beltline debate....it is certainly an urban neighbourood but it is geographically a huge area and is generally not considered 'downtown'.....if it is to be included then neighbourhoods like winnipeg's osborne village and edmonton's boyle street also need to be included.

The Beltline is considered by everyone in Calgary to be part of downtown. If you want to consider Calgary's CBD only as downtown, then you we should be comparing only the CBD of each city. That would vary the results depending on each city. Vancouver is a good example.

In the end what is considered downtown is an arbitrary thing, no mater how you look at it. You don't want to consider the beltline as part of downtown, that's fine. Most people in Calgary do, that's also fine.

That's why this thread is so useless. We can't compare the downtown of any two cities, because the definition varies. A good example for Calgary is the Calgary downtown association, it considers only the CBD as downtown, but others like CMHC considers the beltine to be part of downtown. The city of Calgary considers downtown as just the CBD in some literature, and includes the beltline as downtown in other literature.

The company I work for (Royal Bank) officially considers the beltline part of it's 'downtown region'

On a side note, the beltline is not a huge geographical area. If you look at the maps in Tarsus' post, you can see it's not actually that big an area.

[Boris2k7]

A note here: the OP did state that this thread wasn't about comparisons between cities directly. He acknowledged these problems and nonetheless made the thread. If anything, I think this thread is more about showing how wildly different the jobs/residents imbalances are, and what kind off factors can contribute to those imbalances.

And uh, Tarsus also lopped off a third of Downtown and the Beltline.

But it is true about the average perception of what constitutes downtown Calgary. The residents there sometimes deny it (I'd know, I worked for them) but I think there are less differences with each new development. We are going up, up, up!

[Surrealplaces]

Yeah, the map created by Tarsus is missing the Victoria park/East village section of downtown. On the other hand though, the Beltline isn't really a huge area as some have suggested, and if you consider the fact that the Victoria park portion of the beltline really doesn't have much population, the Connaught portion (which has 90% of the beltline population) is quite dense, and it really isn't that big of an area.

As far as the whole argument about what constitutes Calgary's 'Downtown' per se. I believe the city government actually considers just the commercial core as downtown, but then again who the fuck cares what the actually invisible boundary is. For all intents and purposes the Beltline is part of downtown.

[Spocket]

Sorry, I hope we can stomach one more comment on the definition of a downtown using Winnipeg as an example.

Personally I would consider TV's cited figure of 37,000 to be the "correct" one for downtown Winnipeg. This is the Eastern zone and the smaller one that Trueviking defined in the close up directly south of it.
As such, I would consider the Beltline as part of Calgary's downtown as well. I suppose we have to draw the line somewhere especially when we start getting into cities of two million or more but basically, if the locals think of it as downtown then it counts.

Sound fair folks ?

[MrChills]

St. John's, Newfoundland has 10,025 people living in the downtown area, with 7,515 people working in this same area

http://www.downtownstjohns.com/images/MAP_revised.jpg

[Cambridgite]

A note here: the OP did state that this thread wasn't about comparisons between cities directly. He acknowledged these problems and nonetheless made the thread. If anything, I think this thread is more about showing how wildly different the jobs/residents imbalances are, and what kind off factors can contribute to those imbalances.

Thank you. You get it. :yes:

And uh, Tarsus also lopped off a third of Downtown and the Beltline.

But it is true about the average perception of what constitutes downtown Calgary. The residents there sometimes deny it (I'd know, I worked for them) but I think there are less differences with each new development. We are going up, up, up!

Yep, this is true. In such fast growing cities, the whole definition of downtown can change over time. In the "50 years ago" thread, a picture of today's downtown Edmonton was shown, and it was a neighborhood of single-detached houses.

[Deepstar]

Sorry, I hope we can stomach one more comment on the definition of a downtown using Winnipeg as an example.

Personally I would consider TV's cited figure of 37,000 to be the "correct" one for downtown Winnipeg. This is the Eastern zone and the smaller one that Trueviking defined in the close up directly south of it.
As such, I would consider the Beltline as part of Calgary's downtown as well. I suppose we have to draw the line somewhere especially when we start getting into cities of two million or more but basically, if the locals think of it as downtown then it counts.

Sound fair folks ?

That would seem about right. The city of Calgary actually defines a "downtown" neighborhood as being pretty much the CBD, and doesn't even include Chinatown or Eau Claire, but of course that makes for a pointless comparison. If you're discussing residential populations of "downtowns" you really have to include the beltline.

[Mille Sabords]

Latest population estimates for downtown Ottawa (Central and Inner Areas) as the City defines it: 96,156 (mid-year 2007).
Latest employment estimates for downtown Ottawa (Central and Inner Areas): 153,940 (mid-year 2006)

[trueviking]

TV, I'm not sure the comparison of Winnipeg's East and West downtown communities (the official designation of downtown (west and east) has a population of 60 000,) is an accurate comparison to Calgary's beltline and CBD as far as area goes.

According to the above map the two yellow areas make the boundary area for Winnipeg's 'official' downtown area of 60,000 people. You can confirm, as I'm not 100% familiar. But it appears that the map below would be the rough area for those two neighborhoods.
.

i am certainly not getting sucked into a debate about this...as i have said, i am not claiming the beltline is downtown or isnt...its a pointless discussion.

i was just teasing boris, but if you want to get into it, the beltline overlaid on winnipeg would stretch from portage and main to polo park shopping centre...about 4kms....which is the boundary of the 'west downtown' neighbourhood on the city of wpg website.

not saying anything good or bad about that....just presenting the fact.

[mmmatt]

Downtown Moncton is home to about 1,000 people and 13,000 work there.

[Deepstar]

i am certainly not getting sucked into a debate about this...as i have said, i am not claiming the beltline is downtown or isnt...its a pointless discussion.

i was just teasing boris, but if you want to get into it, the beltline overlaid on winnipeg would stretch from portage and main to polo park shopping centre...about 4kms....which is the boundary of the 'west downtown' neighbourhood on the city of wpg website.

not saying anything good or bad about that....just presenting the fact.

I don't want to get into a debate over this either. I'm not saying anything about anybody's neighborhood or anyone's population counts, but I do want to clarify something. You're saying the beltline is 4 km wide? Where are you getting that number from? The beltline from 14th street to Macleod trial is 2.4 km, and if you include the Victoria park portion, it adds another .6 km to that. It's also only about 1 km wide (3 sq km). Not exactly a 'huge geographical area'.

[Mister F]

Of course this would be the more "traditional" downtown area. Presently, the areas of Yonge/Eglinton, North York and even parts of Scarborough are incredibly dense and have fair amounts of workers within them. They could be considered downtowns in their own rights, I think. I wonder if there are numbers available on population/workers in those areas. Should be pretty interesting, especially for Yonge/Eglinton and North York Centre. Theres a TON of high rise condo's in both those places with a large amount of office buildings to match.
The city does an employment survey every year and keeps track of employment in all the centres (SCC, Yonge-Eglinton, Etobicoke Centre, NYCC). Downtown had 397,000 jobs last year and the centres had 85,000 between them.

2006 report (http://www.toronto.ca/demographics/pdf/survey2006.pdf)

According to the report done for the City of Toronto on downtown's future, Downtown Toronto has approx 400,000 workers. This stat has gone up and down over the years. During the early 90's downtown had as much as 418,000workers. It then declined to under 400,000, and is now back at the 400,000 mark, and hopefully growing :)

The area counted as downtown offically by the city of Toronto, is the area bounded by the lake, Bathurst Street, The Don Valley, and Dupont Street.


I don't have the exact number, but coming in second is Downtown Montreal with somewhere close to 300,000 jobs downtown.
Downtown Toronto's employment is growing by about 2% a year.

The downtown population stood at nearly 169,000 last year, up from 102,000 five years earlier.

http://www.thestar.com/article/270694
Actually that was a misprint that was corrected. It went from 102,000 to 169,000 in 30 years, though the pace has been faster the last few years gonig by the number of units that have been built. That kind of growth in 5 years would be insane.

[MonkeyRonin]

But I do certainly call these pics of the residential area as low density. Any neighbourhood made up of single family homes is low density in my book.

Don't be fooled by seeing houses. Similar looking neighbourhoods in Toronto regularly have 5,000-10,000 people/sqkm.

(alot of those houses also appear to be rows, am I correct?)

[someone123]

5,000-10,000 people per square kilometer is just an average, fully built out single family dwelling neighbourhood. You can find similar areas in any Canadian city and probably many towns, although many census tracts would not accurately reflect this since they tend to include adjacent empty land, parks, gaps and/or water, industrial lands, etc.

[Bassic Lab]

5,000-10,000 people per square kilometer is just an average, fully built out single family dwelling neighbourhood. You can find similar areas in any Canadian city and probably many towns, although many census tracts would not accurately reflect this since they tend to include adjacent empty land, parks, gaps and/or water, industrial lands, etc.

I can't think of any neighbourhoods comprised of single family units that would aproach any thing like 10 000 pp/Km^2. That is more than 25 000 ppsm, which is quite dense.

[someone123]

At the low end, assuming a modest 2.5 people per lot, it would only be necessary to fit 2000 lots into one square kilometre to obtain a density of 5000 per square kilometre. Assuming the lots themselves can only cover about 2/3 of that area, this leaves about 3600 square feet per lot, which is definitely not out of the question in an urban setting.

If you throw in things like commercial areas or industry the share of land devoted to residential goes down, but that is exactly what I was talking about earlier.

[Doady]

5,000-10,000 people per square kilometer is just an average, fully built out single family dwelling neighbourhood.

LOL, not even close... the average is more like 2,500-4,000

[aastra]

5,000-10,000 people per square kilometer is just an average, fully built out single family dwelling neighbourhood.

I don't know if I agree with that. By my estimation, 5,000 per square KM would actually be fairly high, whereas 10,000 per square KM would be extremely dense if not the densest area in any Canadian city outside of the big three. Consider this selection (and please mention any errors you might catch):

Densest Tracts - Calgary:
#1: 12,230
#2: 9,828
#3: 8,285
#4: 8,262
#5: 5,728

Densest Tracts - Halifax:
#1: 8,766
#2: 7,137
#3: 6,774
#4: 5,666
#5: 5,276

Densest Tracts - Victoria:
#1: 7,259
#2: 7,084
#3: 6,126
#4: 5,978
#5: 5,882

Densest Tracts - Kelowna:
#1: 3,707
#2: 3,418
#3: 3,379
#4: 3,276
#5: 2,773

Densest Tract - Nanaimo, BC:
#1: 2,308

Densest Tracts - Vancouver (west side, excluding downtown peninsula)
(the densities on Vancouver's downtown peninsula range from 6,506 all the way up to 28,272 per square KM)
#1: 13,544
#2: 12,630
#3: 11,471
#4: 11,199
#5: 11,138

Note: the following maps are not to scale...

http://www.therealvictoria.ca/images/VancouverDensity-2006Census.gif

http://www.therealvictoria.ca/images/VictoriaDensity-2006Census.gif

http://www.therealvictoria.ca/images/CalgaryDensity-2006Census.gif

http://www.therealvictoria.ca/images/HalifaxDensity-2006Census.gif

http://www.therealvictoria.ca/images/KelownaDensity-2006Census.gif

http://www.therealvictoria.ca/images/NanaimoDensity-2006Census.gif

[someone123]

I don't know if I agree with that. By my estimation, 5,000 per square KM would actually be fairly high, whereas 10,000 per square KM would be extremely dense if not the densest area in any Canadian city outside of the big three. Consider this selection:

You are missing my point, which is that census tracts are drawn up in a way that often makes no sense or, at least, mix industrial and commercial uses with residential in almost all cases. Many tracts that appear more densely populated than the rest appear so simply because of how they are drawn and don't really include uniquely built up areas. I may have been exaggerating somewhat but I don't think your examples do a great job of disproving what I said.

A lot of the Vancouver outside of the peninsula is single family dwellings, for example. It's not hard to imagine removing the small apartment buildings or mixed industrial/parkland in some of those tracts and replacing them with houses to end up somewhere in the over 5000 range.

The census tracts in central Halifax in every case include either large parkland, industrial, or commercial uses. Some of the densest tracts are mostly just houses, though many are rentals.

As for Calgary and Victoria, I can't comment.

[aastra]

Many tracts that appear more densely populated than the rest appear so simply because of how they are drawn and don't really include uniquely built up areas.

The census tracts in central Halifax in every case include either large parkland, industrial, or commercial uses. Some of the densest tracts are mostly just houses, though many are rentals.

Actually, I could counter that you're the one who's missing the point. The caveats of census tracts apply to every city, so as long as we're aware of the issues (as everyone here is), what's the big deal? The point here is to get a sense of the density in a particular area and the census tract data is very valuable in this regard. Do you think it's coincidence that the top five densities in Calgary, Halifax and Victoria are so similar? Of course not; things even out. Obviously you're correct that the density of a particular tract would be higher if you were to remove the unpopulated spaces within it, but then just about every tract includes an assortment of those very same unpopulated spaces. Excepting extreme cases, methinks it's perfectly reasonable to compare tracts with the parks and such included.

Here's an example of an extreme case: in the lower part of Victoria's map there's a tract with a density of 2,481. Every Victorian knows that a very large park takes up about half of that tract, so we can assume the actual density of the neighbourhood beside the park is something on the order of 5,000. Nobody should be bummed out that the park is included in the tract and the density shows at a measly 2,481 because of it. We're informed, we know the score. The other adjacent tracts tell the whole story, anyway.

Everyone here also knows that the stunningly high densities on Vancouver's downtown peninsula would average down if it was all one big tract or maybe just a couple of tracts. Again, so what? The numbers still tell us that Vancouver's downtown peninsula is extremely densely populated for a Canadian city, and that the dense neighbourhoods there are about twice as dense as the dense neighbourhoods in Calgary. That's all we wanted to know.

Aerial photographs can help us visualize the numbers. Here's what 7,000+ per square KM looks like in Victoria:
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9396/beaconhillparkte9.jpg

And here's what 10,000+ per square KM looks like in Kerrisdale in Vancouver:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7973/kerrisdalett6.jpg
http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Vancouver/Central/2005/183/2

[flar]

Parts of Toronto and Montreal have much higher densities (>25,000) than Vancouver. Hamilton has densities of >15,000 too.

[rapid_business]

Hamilton? What, combined two city blocks of condos and multiply to get the per km ratio?

[flar]

Why don't you come for a visit now that you live close by onishenko? Hamilton's unique geography caused the lower city to develop in a dense way.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/oddstuff/west-central-hamilton.jpg
(not my picture, not sure who took it)

The parts of the lower city that aren't apartments developed around streetcar routes with rowhouses or houses built about 6 inches apart and right up to the street.

[softee]

Don't forget that in many cases what look to be neighbourhoods of old single family homes adjacent to the downtown are actually houses that have been converted into apartments with 3 or 4 units. This is the case with many of the old houses close to downtown North Bay.

[Cambridgite]

Hamilton? What, combined two city blocks of condos and multiply to get the per km ratio?

Hamilton is actually surprisingly dense. It may be comparable to KW in size, but it feels 10 times bigger. A large downtown and tons, lots of row houses and plenty of inner city retail strips (although some could use some work). It's actually quite a surprise from what you'd expect if you haven't been there.

[miketoronto]

Don't forget the old City of Hamilton has over 330,000 people in about 40 sq miles. Not as low density as people think :)

[wild wild west]

Some parts of inner-city Ottawa appear to be very dense. I would bet there would be tracts over 15,000 per sq. km.

[someone123]

Actually, I could counter that you're the one who's missing the point. The caveats of census tracts apply to every city, so as long as we're aware of the issues (as everyone here is), what's the big deal?

Perhaps you should go back and read the post I was replying to. The post itself was about how some unspecified areas of single family dwellings have densities in the 5,000-10,000 range. I said this is not highly out of the ordinary if boundaries happen to be drawn in just the right way, as they can be for census tracts in some cases, or as they are often drawn by people who simply want to get the highest density numbers possible. I did not say that this holds true for census tracts in general. In fact, I specifically said that it usually doesn't. Your figures disprove a straw man argument I was never trying to make.

[rapid_business]

Why don't you come for a visit now that you live close by onishenko? Hamilton's unique geography caused the lower city to develop in a dense way.

I was out there to visit extended family in early September when we first moved here. Just for an evening and was out in the burbs. See it across that lake while in Burlington a couple times. I'll make a point of visiting soon.

So density in the basin gives streetcar/LRT potential?

[jeremy_haak]

I was out there to visit extended family in early September when we first moved here. Just for an evening and was out in the burbs. See it across that lake while in Burlington a couple times. I'll make a point of visiting soon.

So density in the basin gives streetcar/LRT potential?

Isn't part of that whack load of transit funding supposed to be directed to LRT in Hamilton?

[SteelTown]

$300 million provincally and $100 million federally towards rapid transit in Hamilton.

[rapid_business]

I know this goes off topic, but is there a route chosen for said LRT? link?

[SteelTown]

^ here you go, the fund is towards the solid lines (blue and yellow)
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a382/hammer396/rapid.jpg

For more information go to Local:Hamilton under the transportation section and you'll find the most up to date information. It's still in the early stages.

[MonkeyRonin]

LOL, not even close... the average is more like 2,500-4,000

In a suburban setting, maybe. But looking through census tract data of areas of Toronto made up of predominantly single-family homes, they tend to have densities of well over 5,000 people/sqkm.

[miketoronto]

As for downtowns, I would like to see our cities put more effort into growing downtown jobs.

Toronto should be aiming for the 800,000 mark for downtown workers over the next 20 years say. If not more.

Hamilton should be aiming for 100,000(by becoming a secondary business centre to Toronto, instead of suburban sprawl jobs in the 905 suburbs)

Vancouver, should be aiming for well over 250,000 jobs downtown in the next decade or two. Vancouver's downtown employment levels are very low for a city region that size.

Calgary I think is doing great in the downtown employment growth area.

Montreal could aim to double to say 600,000 jobs downtown.

Winnipeg could set a goal of about 110,000 jobs for downtown.

[rapid_business]

/\
Does Edmonton not exist in your world?

[Reesonov]

/\ He lives in a utopia

[Cambridgite]

As for downtowns, I would like to see our cities put more effort into growing downtown jobs.

Toronto should be aiming for the 800,000 mark for downtown workers over the next 20 years say. If not more.

Hamilton should be aiming for 100,000(by becoming a secondary business centre to Toronto, instead of suburban sprawl jobs in the 905 suburbs)

Vancouver, should be aiming for well over 250,000 jobs downtown in the next decade or two. Vancouver's downtown employment levels are very low for a city region that size.

Calgary I think is doing great in the downtown employment growth area.

Montreal could aim to double to say 600,000 jobs downtown.

Winnipeg could set a goal of about 110,000 jobs for downtown.

Oh god....I think you'd freak if you were to find out only 12,000 people work in downtown Kitchener. And that's way up from what it used to be a few years ago!! :haha:

Our 2006 CMA was 451,000 by the way. That doesn't include students or some of the townships in the region.

[miketoronto]

/\
Does Edmonton not exist in your world?

I don't know much about Edmonton, so I choose not to set a goal for them. You guys can do that though.

[raggedy13]

Vancouver, should be aiming for well over 250,000 jobs downtown in the next decade or two. Vancouver's downtown employment levels are very low for a city region that size.

According to the latest jobs study for the area, our "Metropolitan Core" contains about 200,000 jobs at present. Of course this area goes beyond our current downtown (generally defined as the 'downtown peninsula') but the Broadway Corridor south of False Creek has already become a strong 'uptown' employment centre and the False Creek Flats to the east of False Creek (effectively linking traditional downtown and the Broadway area) is a growing tech hub and soon medical one once downtown's only current hospital is largely (but not entirely) relocated into an expanded facility there. Basically the "Metropolitan Core" will be the limits of our downtown in the decades to come.

http://www.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/corejobs/images/studyareas.jpg
http://www.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/corejobs/index.htm

Here's an excerpt from the study... (dated April '07)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/raggedy13/study1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/raggedy13/study2.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/raggedy13/study3.jpg

[miketoronto]

Oh god....I think you'd freak if you were to find out only 12,000 people work in downtown Kitchener. And that's way up from what it used to be a few years ago!! :haha:

Our 2006 CMA was 451,000 by the way. That doesn't include students or some of the townships in the region.

As a subcentre to Toronto we could set a goal for Downtown Kitchener of 50,000 jobs. And about 30,000 for Uptown Waterloo.

[Cambridgite]

As a subcentre to Toronto we could set a goal for Downtown Kitchener of 50,000 jobs. And about 30,000 for Uptown Waterloo.

That would be really sweet :cool: ...however, really long term. Probably 25-30 years down the road.

On the upside, the Barrelyards office towers (225,000 square feet) have been approved in uptown Waterloo, and more recently, a conversion of a factory into retail and 400,000 square feet of office space has been proposed by some Toronto-based developers. That doesn't include smaller projects and the developments recently completed. These two developments alone should boost Kitchener's downtown and Waterloo's uptown employment to 15,000 and 10,000 respectively. So employment is growing in the core, but office construction is still dominant in the burbs.

[miketoronto]

Why do we have to wait 30 years :) It is amazing to read reports on how even during the first craze of suburb building, downtown Toronto and other downtowns were still able to double their employment levels in 20 years or less.

Lets get Kitchener moving :)

[someone123]

A lot of those "metropolitan core" jobs in Vancouver would be service jobs.

Vancouver in some ways is just different from other cities. It has complicated geography, unlike Calgary or Toronto, so it is harder for people in outlying areas to commute downtown. This tends to encourage employment growth in other areas.

Another big factor is that Vancouver just isn't a corporate sort of city with a lot of office jobs. There aren't many large companies based there.

A third strike for the downtown is that office towers have to compete with residential for land and housing prices in Vancouver are extremely high so condo developers can afford to pay a lot.

[miketoronto]

No excuses. :) Downtown Vancouver is the centre of the region, and if people move out to Surrey or whatever, and are to far from downtown, its their own fault.

I wish Canadian cities would stop sitting by the sideline and actually plan for more growth in our core cities.

Look at Chicago. They have a plan to increase downtown employment over the next 10-20 years or so by over 200,000 jobs(around that figure).

We have no urge in Canada anymore, like we did, to put the core city first.
We are living really on the legacy of planning 30-40 years ago, that put the city first before the suburbs. (Did you know that till the 80's Edmonton and Ottawa for example had bans on most suburban mall development).

Lets get back into promoting our core cities as the places to grow jobs and not just residents :)

Lets unlock the potential in our downtowns.

[CCF]

These numbers really speak to the differing economies found in Canadian cities.

Regina and Hamilton have very similar downtown workforce numbers, the city populations are vastly different. Same can be said when compating WInnipeg and Hamilton, although here the populations are similar.

[trueviking]

compare canadian cities to american ones and we are doing quite well on the whole for downtown employment figures....most canadian cities are at or above 20% of the total labour force in the CBD.

USA CBD employment averages
cities over 3 million 7.1% (2.8% in LA!)
cities between 1 and 3 million: 10.8%
cities between 500k and 1 million: 12.2%

http://www.usc.edu/schools/sppd/lusk/research/pdf/wp_2007-1001.pdf

[vanman]

No excuses. Downtown Vancouver is the centre of the region, and if people move out to Surrey or whatever, and are to far from downtown, its their own fault.

Easy for you to say. Can you afford a $350,000 1 bedroom 650sqft condo?(Please note, most people have families with a spouse and/or children)

[Danny D]

:haha:

Yeah, I'm actually surprised Vid hasn't said anything yet. If not providing us with Thunder Bay data, at least making some kind of vague Thunder Bay reference.

From the looks of it.

6500 - Live downtown PA
??? - Work downtown PA
6000 - Live downtown FW
??? - Work downtown FW

I can't find any data for Downtown jobs :( but close to 12,000 Live in the 2 Downtown cores.

Edit: Because the CT cuts both of the downtown areas in half :P

[vid]

I'll make some exact stats tomorrow. Maybe I'll even throw in a map?

Danny is overestimating the populations, either way. Only about 4,000 live in each downtown.

[Danny D]

Thats true. i was looking at the Census Tract maps and they are a bit off. i would also say closer to 4-5k per core.

[giallo]

Easy for you to say. Can you afford a $350,000 1 bedroom 650sqft condo?(Please note, most people have families with a spouse and/or children)

Thanks. I was going to comment, but you beat me to it.
Mike, does your dream world include money trees? I'd like nothing more than to own a place in downtown Vancouver, but I'm not paying $300,000+ for a glorified shoe box. I'm quite happy with Metro Vancouver having a few downtowns rather than having everything crammed in to one area. It's not practical.

[vid]

Using Statistics Canada's GeoSearch2006 maps, I compiled this two maps. The first one is downtown Port Arthur (blue) and the Finnish quarter (red) while the second one is downtown Fort William (blue) and Simpson-Ogden (red).

Dark colours are the main commercial portions of the cores, while light parts are the urban residential/commercial mid in the general area.

These are approximate, because Statscan only does down to city block level.

On the numbers on the right, the dark blue corresponds to the people living downtown, and light is the people living around it. Dark red is people living in the neighbouring business area, and red is the people living around it. The black number below is the number of people living in the mainly commercial areas, the grey is how many live in the mainly residential areas. The black and italics is the total for all four combined.

In total, 4,726 people live in the main parts of the downtown cores, while 8,491 people live in the mixed areas around them. A total of 13,227 people or just over 12% of the city's population.

I'm not sure about employment numbers, but based on these stats I'd guess about 20,000 for both cores combined?

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8479/residentdtpabayalgdv3.png
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/461/residentdtfwsimpogmq3.png

The southernmost street where Port Arthur's data stops is John Street, the northern edge of Intercity. The northernmost street for Fort William, Pacific Avenue, is the southern edge. There is 4 kilometres between them.