[Bigtime]

Council rejects title change
Politicians vote to retain alderman

Joel Kom
Calgary Herald
Tuesday, December 04, 2007


The vote was closer, but the result was the same.

Those sitting on city council will still be called alderman after a motion to change their title was defeated Monday -- with help from all three women on council.

Aldermen voted 8-6 against altering the title, marking the latest defeat for those who have lobbied for decades to make the change.

"Right now, we aren't showing much leadership," said Betty Donaldson of Citizens for Calgary Councillors. "We're dragging our heels. We're earning our reputation of redneck."

All three women on council -- Druh Farrell, Diane Colley-Urquhart and Linda Fox-Mellway -- voted against the motion.

"It would be as effective, in my view, as changing the name East Village to Paradise," Farrell said, adding the term alderman is rooted in history and is an honourable title.

Changing the name, said Farrell, would have no tangible effect on women's chances for success at City Hall.

Having more women on powerful city boards, such as the Calgary police commission, would have more impact, she said -- something Fox-Mellway echoed.

"Actions speak louder than words," Fox-Mellway said.

Donaldson said she was disappointed by the three women.

"They are stuck in the past, and they are quirky and they are outdated," she said.

Mayor Dave Bronconnier, meanwhile, left the room at the start of the debate and came back into council chambers at the end of it, missing the vote.

His presence, however, wouldn't have made a difference.

"I didn't think that I needed to weigh into a debate," he said. "It was very clear to me that most members of council that it would impact had already made a decision."

Bronconnier added he supported the result of Monday's decision.

The vote was closer and livelier than the last time it came to council. Only four supported the title change in 2003, while those who opposed it then never said a word during the debate.

This time, some of those who opposed it -- including Farrell and Fox-Mellway -- made themselves heard.

Monday's vote maintains a title that has been in place since 1894, before women were entitled to run for office.

It survived a challenge to the Alberta Human Rights Commission, which ruled earlier this year against a complaint that said the term was discriminatory.

Of Canada's 16 major cities, Calgary is the only one not to use the term councillor.

Ald. Dale Hodges, who tried to get council to change the name, said he knew going into the vote it would be tough.

Hodges said the matter will return at some point.

"Eventually, it will be back, and eventually, it will carry," he said.

jkom@theherald.canwest.com

© The Calgary Herald 2007
______________________________________________________________

So I've made this a poll question to guage the reaction here if we put it to a vote. Do you prefer the term Alderman or would you rather have Councillor?

Personally I think it is funny that Betty Donaldson calls our three female alderman "outdated, quirky, and stuck in the past". Yes our most progressive and forward thinking alderman Druh is clearly all of those things! :shrug:

Also I have no problem with Alderman, I heard Druh Farrell speaking about this on QR77 last week and she makes great mention of the fact that the name comes with a lot of history. She also made a remark that the name "Human" also happens to have "man" in it! :banana:

So place your votes and lets see what you all think!

[Mikemike]

I understand that in old english, man was the gender neutral term. Woman is essentially femalehuman, and the male equivalent included some form of "were" as in werewolf, were being a masculine prefix.

Therefore, in it's origin alderman is not gender specific.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Is changing the title to Idiots an option? I can't believe they are wasting city couuncil time on this.

And if it's going to keeep coming up the mayor needs to step in, act as dictator and say it's going to be [insert term of your choice here] and get on with it and deal with actual issues.

[SHOFEAR]

Good on calgary for not caving to political correctness.

[Champion3]

When I was in university there was a feminist organisation called the "Womyn's centre." Why? Because they didn't want the word "men" to be contained in "women." I am of the opinion that this kind of pettiness trivializes the cause that the organisation fights for.

Is fighting over the use of the word "alderman" just as trivial? I'm not sure as I don't know enough about the history of the word. Does it truly have any relevance to the ability of our women on council to do their jobs? No.

I'll say one thing though: I kind of wished that they'd change it just so that the debate stops wasting everybody's time and energy. How many times does debate over this issue need to come up?

[wild wild west]

When I was in university there was a feminist organisation called the "Womyn's centre." Why? Because they didn't want the word "men" to be contained in "women." I am of the opinion that this kind of pettiness trivializes the cause that the organisation fights for.

Is fighting over the use of the word "alderman" just as trivial? I'm not sure as I don't know enough about the history of the word. Does it truly have any relevance to the ability of our women on council to do their jobs? No.

I'll say one thing though: I kind of wished that they'd change it just so that the debate stops wasting everybody's time and energy. How many times does over this issue need to come up?


Agreed on all counts.

[RWin]

Manitoba is a bad name for a province.

[freeweed]

Manitoba is a bad name for a province.

:jester: :jester:

Made in jest, but I kid you not, this actually came up years back.

(For those not in the know) Years ago, the big museum in Winnipeg was called the "Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature". Nice, prestigious title. Pretty clearly using "man" as in "mankind". A long battle was fought, for YEARS, to have the name changed as it was deemed sexist. One side eventually gave up and the name stayed. However, a few years back the name mysteriously got changed to the "Manitoba Museum" *YAWN* with very little fuss.

Point is, during all of the earlier debate people started saying tongue-in-cheek that we should rename the province "Personitoba" or better, "Peoplitoba" (as person has the word "son" in it). Not to be outdone, at least one major feminist group ran with this and actually did try to get this issue raised in the Legislature.

All that aside, I think both sides kinda have a point in this one. You never hear of "anchormen" or "stewardesses" or "policemen" any more. But I also agree with the earlier sentiment that this insane battle over words just trivializes the hard-fought victories of the feminist movement, of which I'm an insanely strong supporter.

I am pleased to see the gender-neutral term "actor" being used more and more to describe women though.

[lubicon]

Interesting to see that all 3 women on council voted against the change.

[jeremy_haak]

:jester: :jester:

Made in jest, but I kid you not, this actually came up years back.

(For those not in the know) Years ago, the big museum in Winnipeg was called the "Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature". Nice, prestigious title. Pretty clearly using "man" as in "mankind". A long battle was fought, for YEARS, to have the name changed as it was deemed sexist. One side eventually gave up and the name stayed. However, a few years back the name mysteriously got changed to the "Manitoba Museum" *YAWN* with very little fuss.

Point is, during all of the earlier debate people started saying tongue-in-cheek that we should rename the province "Personitoba" or better, "Peoplitoba" (as person has the word "son" in it). Not to be outdone, at least one major feminist group ran with this and actually did try to get this issue raised in the Legislature.

All that aside, I think both sides kinda have a point in this one. You never hear of "anchormen" or "stewardesses" or "policemen" any more. But I also agree with the earlier sentiment that this insane battle over words just trivializes the hard-fought victories of the feminist movement, of which I'm an insanely strong supporter.

I am pleased to see the gender-neutral term "actor" being used more and more to describe women though.

The Museum of Civilization used to be the Museum of Man but was changed for the same reasons.

[Mid1]

Interesting to see that all 3 women on council voted against the change.

More interesting is how much Dale Hodges was paid in the last election by this group to put this issue on the agenda.

[Bigtime]

More interesting is how much Dale Hodges was paid in the last election by this group to put this issue on the agenda.

Really? Is this legal to do? Or are we talking the sort of paying that was in the form of campaign contributions?

As well when I heard this story on the radio this morning I was really pissed off by the remarks of Donaldson about how "We're earning our reputation of redneck". Hey fuck you lady, don't you go and lump a whole city into your one stereotype because people really don't give a shit what the title is called. Why don't you put your energy into something that could actually benefit all of society instead? Short of that, go die in a greasefire. End rant. :cool:

[wild wild west]

Really? Is this legal to do? Or are we talking the sort of paying that was in the form of campaign contributions?

As well when I heard this story on the radio this morning I was really pissed off by the remarks of Donaldson about how "We're earning our reputation of redneck". Hey fuck you lady, don't you go and lump a whole city into your one stereotype because people really don't give a shit what the title is called. Why don't you put your energy into something that could actually benefit all of society instead? Short of that, go die in a greasefire. End rant. :cool:

Yeah, I was pissed about that too. I wonder if New York City and Chicago are also "redneck" because they still use the term "alderman". Ironic that on the same day as statistics come out showing that Calgary is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the country (see "Canada" Section), some idiot has to totally insult our great city by describing us with the "r" word because Council didn't vote in favour of a meaningless title change. F*ck her.



Re: Hodges, I suspect it was in the form of campaign contributions. Bottom line is that guy has little to offer to Council any more and should retire. It's too bad he wasn't unseated by Jennifer Banks - she would have probably made a good alderman/councillor.

[Bigtime]

Yeah, I was pissed about that too. I wonder if New York City and Chicago are also "redneck" because they still use the term "alderman". Ironic that on the same day as statistics come out showing that Calgary is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the country (see "Canada" Section), some idiot has to totally insult our great city by describing us with the "r" word because Council didn't vote in favour of a meaningless title change. F*ck her.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that way about the statement!

I know our city has its issues, but we can always strive to be better. I'm Calgary born and raised and have never thought in a racist way. I have always been accepting of all peoples and their beliefs and life choices. I'd be quite surprised if people like myself were the minority in this so called redneck town.

If only I had the energy to write some sort of letter to the Herald deriding Donaldson for her disrespectful comments of our city. Not HER city, but OUR city. Clearly with those comments she thinks she is better than the rest of us common folk!

[Mid1]

Really? Is this legal to do? Or are we talking the sort of paying that was in the form of campaign contributions?



Perhaps I should of used the politically correct term "campaign contributions" but it makes no difference.

[lubicon]

More interesting is how much Dale Hodges was paid in the last election by this group to put this issue on the agenda.

How much and by whom?

[Beltliner]

As for m'self, I'm just waiting for these people to come out and call Kanga Druh and Nursie a pack of Yvettes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_referendum%2C_1980#The_campaign). Seriously, I'm just waiting. Could sell tickets for the firestorm to follow.

[Distill3d]

if the women down at city hall have an issue with the word Alderman then why don't we just called them the ever original "Alder-BROAD"

[Bigtime]

if the women down at city hall have an issue with the word Alderman then why don't we just called them the ever original "Alder-BROAD"

Well some on here already refer to Farrell as the Alder-babe, so maybe the other two get that title! :haha:

[Boris2k7]

Well some on here already refer to Farrell as the Alder-babe, so maybe the other two get that title! :haha:

I reject. I'll hopefully be dead before anyone does such a thing! :hell:

[Bigtime]

I reject. I'll hopefully be dead before anyone does such a thing! :hell:

No no Boris, I mean the other two will be known as Alder-broad. There can be only one Alderbabe, and her name is Druh! :cool:

[Boris2k7]

No no Boris, I mean the other two will be known as Alder-broad. There can be only one Alderbabe, and her name is Druh! :cool:

Ohhh.. well, I'll just be quiet then, and apologize for my outburst... :tup:

If I ever hear someone referring to the other two as Alderbabes, they are quickly going to find themselves head-first down a laundry-chute.

[Distill3d]

why doesn't the city have one final vote on the matter, and then have it written into law "from here on in, there will be no further discussion on the matter"??

this is a giant waste of time and tax dollars. it honestly makes the same amount of sense as having Rocky Ridge renamed to Sandy Beach

[Jeffsey500]

I am glad they voted it down. It makes absolutley no sense. They were proposing to change tradition on the ground of political correctness.

[Champion3]

Is it really tradition, though? One news outlet (I can't recall which) reported that "alderman" was not the original term used for councillors in Calgary.

[Bassic Lab]

why doesn't the city have one final vote on the matter, and then have it written into law "from here on in, there will be no further discussion on the matter"??

this is a giant waste of time and tax dollars. it honestly makes the same amount of sense as having Rocky Ridge renamed to Sandy Beach

They don't have the power to legislate away power from future councils, so any such law would be thrown out.

[Mid1]

How much and by whom?

Surprisingly I went and checked and I can't seem to find the campaign contribution lists for the 2007 election for each candidate.

[Jeffsey500]

Is it really tradition, though? One news outlet (I can't recall which) reported that "alderman" was not the original term used for councillors in Calgary.
Really? Oh, I thought it was always Alderman. Hmmmm... Intriguing....

PS. I know I butchered the spelling.

[Rusty van Reddick]

It would not waste any time or any tax dollars if they'd agree to change to "councillors." The "cost" is as much due to opposition. Most of you seem to be ignoring this.

I'm not passionate about this, but whenever somebody brings up "political correctness" I smell something rotten. That's the easiest all-purpose insult and the cheapest way to denigrate change.

"Councillor" is gender neutral; "alderman" is gendered. It's not going to hurt anybody a bit to change the term. It's been done before. We're not talking about changing the system here.

And Chicago is absolutely a corrupt and shameful civic political model. You do not want to claim attachment to Chicago.

[Corndogger]

It would not waste any time or any tax dollars if they'd agree to change to "councillors." The "cost" is as much due to opposition. Most of you seem to be ignoring this.

I'm not passionate about this, but whenever somebody brings up "political correctness" I smell something rotten. That's the easiest all-purpose insult and the cheapest way to denigrate change.

"Councillor" is gender neutral; "alderman" is gendered. It's not going to hurt anybody a bit to change the term. It's been done before. We're not talking about changing the system here.

And Chicago is absolutely a corrupt and shameful civic political model. You do not want to claim attachment to Chicago.

Sounds like you are saying Chicago is corrupt because they use the term Alderman. Is Chicago still corrupt or are you saying that because Daley's son is the mayor now? From what I've heard and read the son is doing a good job. Also, it looks like out of Chicago's 50 Wards, 17 of them appear to have women as Alderman. The title doesn't appear to have had an impact on women running for office there. Is the percentage of women in office locally higher in places that use the term councilor? I doubt it.

Also, NYC has Council Members as far as I know. The term Alderman was used ages ago I believe.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Sounds like you are saying Chicago is corrupt because they use the term Alderman.

It does?

[Corndogger]

It does?

Yes it does based on your last two sentences. If we use term Alderman I don't see how that really attaches us to the morality of Chicago or any other city that uses the term. I'm not in favor of the term Alderman but I want it changed because it is outdated. The argument that it keeps women out of politics is obviously wrong and I don't want us to make a change based on that reason because it will open up many cans of worms.

[Rusty van Reddick]

My point was that Chicago's continued use of the term is no justification for our continued use of the term. In general, Chicago's civic politics is not something we want to emulate. That was all.

[socialisthorde]

Really? Is this legal to do? Or are we talking the sort of paying that was in the form of campaign contributions?

As well when I heard this story on the radio this morning I was really pissed off by the remarks of Donaldson about how "We're earning our reputation of redneck". Hey fuck you lady, don't you go and lump a whole city into your one stereotype because people really don't give a shit what the title is called. Why don't you put your energy into something that could actually benefit all of society instead? Short of that, go die in a greasefire. End rant. :cool:

"fuck you lady...Go die in a greasefire"?, nope that don't sound redneck to me at all:rolleyes:

[Bigtime]

"fuck you lady...Go die in a greasefire"?, nope that don't sound redneck to me at all:rolleyes:

Would you prefer "fuck you lady...go do in a sohpisticated downtown office building fire. My word!"

I suggest you lurk more.

Actually to be more redneck I would have required some banjos, and perhaps the suggestion of pulling her apart limb by limb with a bunch of John Deere tractors. Greasfires can happen anywhere, including modern metropolises! FUN FACT!

Sincerely,

Bigtime, a staunch supporter of our local arts scene.