[SteelTown]

Some cities pushing back against drive-thrus
Updated Sun. Dec. 9 2007 9:36 AM ET

The Canadian Press

It might be tempting to pull up to the drive-thru window to fill up on food and coffee on frosty winter mornings, but some Canadian communities are arguing that traffic safety and concern for the environment should trump convenience.

At some popular fast-food restaurants across the country, lineups are so long they stretch out of parking lots and spill onto public streets, and politicians are eyeing the emissions spewed by all the idling cars, trucks and sport utility vehicles.

In London, Ont., civic leaders are considering restrictions on existing drive-thrus to try to clear the air. A citizens' advisory committee is also recommending a moratorium on new drive-thrus, although the mayor is trying to strike a balance.

"I don't support a ban or a moratorium on drive-thrus ... but if there are ways in which we can improve the air quality in ways that I can't imagine at this point, I'm really open to looking at that and seeing if we can strengthen our bylaws," says Anne-Marie DeCicco-Best.

London council is gathering public input on a range of options, from banning new outlets to tightening zoning bylaws to make more areas of the city drive-thru-free. City staff have floated the idea of restricting the hours of operation for drive-thrus, and a decision is expected in the new year.

In Hamilton, Ont., where Mayor Fred Eisenberger describes himself as "reasonably anti-drive-thru," council is studying an environmental group's call for a moratorium on new drive-thrus.

In Kings County, N.S., one politician has argued that only people with decreased mobility should be entitled to get their food while in their vehicle.

"I think a pregnant mom or a disabled person or a person who couldn't get out of their vehicle or an older person, they could use the drive-thru," says Wayne Atwater. "But these people that are able-bodied men and women, I certainly don't see any reason why they can't get out of their vehicle."

Atwater pushed for a moratorium on new drive-thrus last winter, citing concerns about carbon monoxide and traffic problems, but he couldn't persuade his council colleagues.

Communities from Toronto to St. John's, Nfld., have taken steps to ensure that drive-thrus are far from certain residential streets or big enough to fit a long lineup of cars. But it's the increasing worry over greenhouse gas emissions that's prompting a second look.

Students at the University of Alberta monitored a popular Tim Hortons outlet in Edmonton last year for 54 hours and counted 3,756 vehicles idling for an average of more than five minutes each. The longest idle was more than 12 minutes.

Tim Hortons's drive-thrus tend to generate the most attention because of their popularity. In Winnipeg, cars spill out of Tim's lots onto such major thoroughfares as Portage Ave. and St. Mary's Road as drivers queue up for a java jolt.

"They're victims of their own success," said Winnipeg councillor Mike O'Shaughnessy. "You can see 15, 16 cars in line at three in the afternoon or seven in the evening."

Winnipeg has rejected two proposals for Tim Hortons this year. One was nixed because it would have interfered with a driveway of an adjacent business. The other was axed because nearby residents expressed concerns about traffic.

But O'Shaughnessy says those were individual cases and Winnipeg has no plans to crack down on drive-thrus. "We're not against Tim Hortons. We're not against drive-thrus," said O'Shaughnessy. "They're very popular."

Tim Hortons says it has taken steps to reduce drive-thru lineups, such as allowing motorists to use credit cards that don't require signatures. Many drive-thru work stations now have their own coffee maker and other equipment, so attendants don't have to walk to another part of the shop to fill an order.

The company also says it meets or exceeds space requirements in city bylaws. "We tend to find sites that are a little bit larger so we can accommodate a big parking lot and have a larger than required drive-thru," said Tim Hortons spokesperson Rachel Douglas from the company's headquarters in Oakville, Ont.

"(Drive-thrus) are almost becoming a bit of an essential service. You have parents with young children, you have elderly people with mobility issues. We find that our customers are wanting drive-thrus and are using drive-thrus and that's really what's behind the demand."

[chris k]

I agree with banning dirve thrus as it will help people realize cars are not as conveniant and will probably lower obesity rates and other health rates as people will have to walk out of their car to get their coffees and fatty burgers. Another benefit would of course be the lower emissions from idling vehicles.

The only downside would be all the space dedicated to drive thrus will be turned into.....more parking!:yuck:

[Cambridgite]

I think drive-thrus should be banned in certain locations (downtown and inner city), but not banned altogether. Obviously when you're trying to create vibrant mixed-use streets, you don't want that being interrupted with a drive-thru. But with the way we build suburbs today, drive-thrus make sense. In the case of Tim Horton's in Cambridge, they get so backed up that people park, get out of their cars and line up inside at a certain point because it takes less time. Having both means faster service (assuming there's enough staff). And at Timmy's, anything to make the lines shorter helps.

[DC83]

Drive-Thrus don't quite make sense... they just fit in better w/ suburbs than in inner-cities.

Drive-thrus in an inner-city environment causes un-wanted/needed congestion. Take a look at King/Dundurn's Tim's-Harvey's plaza. The exit from that lot onto King creates such a back-log of cars. So once they sit, idle, pollute while waiting for the non-recylable Tim's cup of Coffee they have to sit, idle, pollute again while waiting in line to get OUT of the lot.

So thinking of all the bad that comes from drive-thrus (greenhouse emissions, laziness, obesity & it's related diseases, killing urban life, etc)... I don't think they should limit the ban to only inner-city but rather city-wide INCL suburbs!

[SteelTown]

I think they should ban drive thrus. Most of the Tim Hortons on the Mountain are mostly without the drive thrus, though lately they've been closing the old ones and replacing them with drive thrus. I live close to the Tim Hortons that's close to Ancaster and it doesn't have a drive thru.

The Tim Hortons at Upper James and Stone Church has a huge line up because it's the only drive thru Tim Hortons in the upper West Mount area, yet the West Mount area is the most populated area in Hamilton, that's why there's two Tim Horton's next door to each other.

[DC83]

I live close to the Tim Hortons that's close to Ancaster and it doesn't have a drive thru.

The one across from Olympic Park? I like that one. Still has the old time Tim's feel to it. Kind of like Tim Horton's #1 did b4 they re-did it in 2000 :(

And ya, those lineups are just rediculous. It's not just Upp James/Stonechurch, but the majority of the drive-thru locations.
There are actually TWO Tim's drive-thru's right there and yet both are packed.

[raisethehammer]

let's not waste our time. this is Hamilton. The car is king.

I agree with an urban ban on drivethrus.
It's kind of tough to ban them in wastelands like meadowlands. if we're going to let crap like that get built, then drive-thrus will be natural in those areas since the entire thing is dedicated to cars.

and I wouldn't worry about places adding more surface parking if they lose their drivethrus.
I've never seen a fast food place with a full lot. ever.

[SteelTown]

^ You should see the new A&W at Upper James. Packed with cars lined up and people lining out the door. They even have music playing outside, right now it's Christmas music.

[raisethehammer]

A&W is so gross. nothing like the original.
Now it's the same mass produced little burger patties full of filler like McD's and everyone else.
I don't drink pop, but I'm hoping they at least sell A&W root beer like the old stuff. I recall it was pretty good last time I had some (going back a decade, so my memory may be failing me..haha)

[fastcarsfreedom]

Needless to say, I'm against a ban on Drive Thrus. Opposed to it Thru-and-Thru. The only reason this is cropping up as an issue is because of Tim Hortons--the previous generation stores which were built without Drive-Thru service are being replaced en masse. Those locations around you that you like so much--are probably all endangered, the sales from Drive Thru are such that just won't do without them--I suspect this is happening in other cities with older TH's (like most of the Ontario cities mentioned). Starbucks follows this same tack--though not exclusively--it's 'urban' locations obviously don't have Drive Thrus...but it's suburban "new build" stores all do--they've built 5 or 6 here in Windsor in the last couple of years.

As for A&W, they were one of the pioneers of "mass produced little burger patties full of filler"...my only beef with them is those nasty coated french fries--I don't know why so many places (KFC, BK, A&W, DQ) went to this wretched things...they are awful and taste like no stick spray...oh well, if nothing else it keeps me from eating fries...which isn't a bad thing.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Oh, and, McDonald's doesn't use filler.

[raisethehammer]

Oh, and, McDonald's doesn't use filler.

'beef' from hundreds of different mass-raised cows pumped full of steroids, chemicals and injections from several different nations all arriving in a single "all beef patty" is not my idea of food. Doesn't get more filler than that.
Anyone hungry??

Again, the drive thru ban is a non-issue in this city.
We don't have leadership on council that will even do simple things like have people become responsible for their OWN garbage. private business has hijacked much of our so-called 'public' life and process in Hamilton.
Drive thru ban won't happen here....along with many other progressive, healthy and image changing initatives that are taking place all over the real world.
We should put up a new entrance sign coming into town -
"Welcome to Hamilton. You'll love reliving the 1950's. Everyday. Don't worry about the few years of your life you'll lose living here. All those other cities have it wrong."

[HAMRetrofit]

Keep drive throughs. Just ban surface parking lots province wide. That is the way to get cities to stop wasting space. Think of the millions of hectares of developable land this would open up. :slob:

[SteelTown]

Doesn't Hamilton ready ban drive thrus for the downtown core?

[DC83]

Keep drive throughs. Just ban surface parking lots province wide. That is the way to get cities to stop wasting space. Think of the millions of hectares of developable land this would open up. :slob:

The MAIN issue with drive-thrus is health & environment, not wasted land.
Surface lots ARE a huge problem (especially in this city), but they don't kill.
Drive-Thrus cause ppl to be lazy which inturn creates obesity and it's accompanied diseases. Drive-Thrus also allow for more-than-necessary amounts of Carbon Emissions to enter our atmosphere (thanks to idling cars).

Surface lots waste space that we can build on.

[raisethehammer]

Doesn't Hamilton ready ban drive thrus for the downtown core?

not that I know of. IF they do, I'm sure there are a pile of exemptions making it a useless bylaw.

Hortons opened one a few years ago at Bay and Cannon.

I'm not aware of any bylaw affecting downtown. Although it would make sense in the urban area.

[HAMRetrofit]

Is there a study available that concludes the health risks of drive-thrus? I would like to take a look at it.

Banning surface lots would cut down on emissions in a significant way because it would force developers and municipalities to be more strategic in the way they develop. For example, when faced with construction costs of buried or raised parking structures, they would become more dependant on building formats that favor access to transit and pedestrians. Additionally, development areas on the periphery would loose their advantage of providing quantifiable land with cheep building types. Since available parking would be reduced, more alternative methods of transportation would develop. It would place city cores at a major advantage for development reducing the major infrastructure burden of low density growth on the province.

[DC83]

Is there a study available that concludes the health risks of drive-thrus? I would like to take a look at it.


Traffic, air quality mean double-double trouble for drive-thrus
Last Updated: Monday, December 10, 2007 | 9:24 AM ET

The Canadian Press

It might be tempting to pull up to the drive-thru window to fill up on food and coffee on frosty winter mornings, but some Canadian communities are arguing that traffic safety and concern for the environment should trump convenience.

At some popular fast-food restaurants across the country, lineups are so long they stretch out of parking lots and spill onto public streets, and politicians are eyeing the emissions spewed by all the idling cars, trucks and sport utility vehicles.

In London, Ont., civic leaders are considering restrictions on existing drive-thrus to try to clear the air. A citizens' advisory committee is also recommending a moratorium on new drive-thrus, although the mayor is trying to strike a balance.

"I don't support a ban or a moratorium on drive-thrus … but if there are ways in which we can improve the air quality in ways that I can't imagine at this point, I'm really open to looking at that and seeing if we can strengthen our bylaws," said Anne Marie DeCicco-Best.

London council is gathering public input on a range of options, from banning new outlets to tightening zoning bylaws to make more areas of the city drive-thru-free. City staff have floated the idea of restricting the hours of operation for drive-thrus, and a decision is expected in the new year.

In Hamilton, Ont., where Mayor Fred Eisenberger describes himself as "reasonably anti-drive-thru," council is studying an environmental group's call for a moratorium on new drive-thrus. In Kings County, N.S., one politician has argued that only people with decreased mobility should be entitled to get their food while in their vehicle.

"I think a pregnant mom or a disabled person or a person who couldn't get out of their vehicle or an older person, they could use the drive-thru," says Wayne Atwater.

"But these people that are able-bodied men and women, I certainly don't see any reason why they can't get out of their vehicle."

Atwater pushed for a moratorium on new drive-thrus last winter, citing concerns about carbon monoxide and traffic problems, but he couldn't persuade his council colleagues.

Cars in Tim Hortons queue idle an average of 5 minutes: study

Students at the University of Alberta monitored a popular Tim Hortons outlet in Edmonton last year for 54 hours and counted 3,756 vehicles idling for an average of more than five minutes each. The longest idle was more than 12 minutes.

Winnipeg has rejected two proposals for Tim Hortons this year. One was nixed because it would have interfered with a driveway of an adjacent business. The other was axed because nearby residents expressed concerns about traffic.

But Winnipeg Coun. Mike O'Shaughnessy says those were individual cases and Winnipeg has no plans to crack down on drive-thrus.

"We're not against Tim Hortons. We're not against drive-thrus," said O'Shaughnessy. "They're very popular."

Drive-thrus an 'essential service,' company says

Tim Hortons says it has taken steps to reduce drive-thru lineups, such as allowing motorists to use credit cards that don't require signatures. Many drive-thru work stations now have their own coffee maker and other equipment, so attendants don't have to walk to another part of the shop to fill an order.

"(Drive-thrus) are almost becoming a bit of an essential service. You have parents with young children, you have elderly people with mobility issues. We find that our customers are wanting drive-thrus and are using drive-thrus and that's really what's behind the demand."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/12/10/timhortons-drivethru.html

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Now I'll see if I can find any reports. Geez, ur like a Prof or something hahaha :P

[the dude]

tim horton's is very lucky this country's full of fat, lazy lardasses.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I think the majority of posters here have some good positive ideas. Unfortunately comments such as "tim horton's is very lucky this country's full of fat, lazy lardasses." make you sound like elitist snobs. Again, visiting the places I've visited in this country and elsewhere--I have yet to determine where "the real world" is--or these wonderful places that are doing all these progressive and positive things. And what are these things? And where are these places so free of big box stores and fast-food?

RTH--you're great--honestly, it's rare that someone is committed as you to wanting this to be a better place--but your passion translates into consistently negative diatrades--I can't help but ask myself why you tough it out, honestly, when the place you live, and claim to love--is so miserable and backward. And as for McDonald's--what can I say--free will--no one forces you to eat the food--so what's your worry?

This Forum is increasingly less about ideas for the future and more about self-rightousness and piety. Seriously, are all of you really that much better than the rest of us? Sure sounds that way.

[raisethehammer]

I didn't realize you guys were reading this forum as an "us vs. them". Go back and re-read the entire thread. There's nothing here demeaning to anyone else with a different view.
Frustration at city hall? sure.
Frustration with the status quo? sure.
So far it looks to me like a good chat. Quit trying to read through lines and somehow make thing out to be personal.
Share your opinion. I enjoy it, and find these discussions very enlightening and eye-opening.

fastcars - you and I seem to have different opinions on various things, but tha'ts fine. that's life. Imagine how boring it would be if we all thought the exact same thing. This forum would die! lol.

I realize sprawl will never go away, but I"ve seen it done better.
Other cities trying to do things better than Hamilton would include quite a long list. It doesn't mean they're getting rid of sprawl. they're trying to bring a better balance to their cities. Hamilton refuses to and needs to be called out on it.
We're just trucking along (literally) like it's the 1950's with no attempt to shift the mindset at city hall.

I'm sorry if you don't like hearing that, but read through the city's budget every year. That says it all. We'll know the mindset is changing once the way we spend our tax dollars starts changing.
And so far, it's the same old story.

[the dude]

fastcars--damn it, i'm biting my tongue right now! am i a snob? damn straight i am. you wanna argue that we're not a country full of fat, lazy lardasses? good luck with that. ohhhhhh, i'm so busy i can't get outta my car...blah blah blah. you think i'm outta line? you think i'm being too negative? go back and check the litany of tirades you've spewed onto this site. i'm getting to the point where i can barely stand checking in on this forum 'cause i know you've likely been busy derailing the discussion with YOUR self-righteousness. please...

[raisethehammer]

yea, I'm not too sure what the deal is here. We're having a perfectly good discussion until someone (in this case, fastcars) comes on and goes off on some rant directed at others on the forum.
Guys, this is a place to share ideas and chat about our city. It's not an interview with Trump on the apprentice. Chill.

[BCTed]

yea, I'm not too sure what the deal is here. We're having a perfectly good discussion until someone (in this case, fastcars) comes on and goes off on some rant directed at others on the forum.
Guys, this is a place to share ideas and chat about our city. It's not an interview with Trump on the apprentice. Chill.

"Perfectly good discussion"?? Give me a break. Let's check your first post in this thread:

let's not waste our time. this is Hamilton. The car is king.

I agree with an urban ban on drivethrus.
It's kind of tough to ban them in wastelands like meadowlands. if we're going to let crap like that get built, then drive-thrus will be natural in those areas since the entire thing is dedicated to cars.

and I wouldn't worry about places adding more surface parking if they lose their drivethrus.
I've never seen a fast food place with a full lot. ever.

How much room for discussion is there here? If I were to tell you that the Meadowlands is not a "wasteland" and that I enjoy shopping there, you would summarily dismiss me in a nanosecond. If I were to tell you that I find drive-thrus to be convenient rather than "crap", you would not give my statement any consideration. If I were to tell you that I have seen fast food places with full parking lots, you would refuse to believe it.

Almost any time that I have brought up an opposing perspective (whether or not it was one with which I agreed), you have either refused to acknowledge a single point or you have ignored it entirely.

Not everyone wants to live on the 20th floor of an apartment building and take light transit to independent mom-and-pop shops that have made a vow to never do more than break even.

[raisethehammer]

bro, no offense, but I don't reply to you because you're a waste of time, not because I disagree with your views. What am I supposed to say to "you suck"?? You're above post had more decent points in it than your last 3 months of posting. try making that a habit instead of the Dr Phil stuff. Unfortunately I don't get to reply to your above points since you already did it for me.

Fastcars and I don't seem to agree on much, but we continue to chat and reply to one another. It's called human interaction. Give it a try sometime without getting all anal.:cheers:

[BCTed]

bro, no offense, but I don't reply to you because you're a waste of time, not because I disagree with your views. What am I supposed to say to "you suck"?? You're above post had more decent points in it than your last 3 months of posting. try making that a habit instead of the Dr Phil stuff. Unfortunately I don't get to reply to your above points since you already did it for me.

Fastcars and I don't seem to agree on much, but we continue to chat and reply to one another. It's called human interaction. Give it a try sometime without getting all anal.:cheers:


"No offense", ... but ... "you're a waste of time"?

Take offense or not, but I think my six year old knows more about reasoning, rational thought, and openmindedness than you do.

[fastcarsfreedom]

the dude--you can barely stand to visit because I've been posting? Why is that? I am actually a long way from self-righteous and a long way from perfect--I am a man of conviction and opinions, and I thrive on sharing them, on reading the opinions of others, and in the end, learning and growing from the discourse--that's what my participation here is about. I'm at a loss to understand why you're getting personal--it's something I strive to avoid here, honestly. Do we agree on most issues--frankly we don't--and that's fine. When you step up to bat with your opinion on something--I'm going to be there to debate it--that's what this is about--and I expect nothing less of you--challenge me, correct me--do whatever you'd like. If however, you just don't want to be disagreed with--I can't help you on that one--when I don't want to be challenged, I find the mirror makes an excellent audience. If a dissenting opinion "derails" discussion--I'm guessing it wouldn't be much of a discussion at all.

With all that being said--it seems you're calling me out on being self-righteous...fine...if you can find an instance where I was self-righteous, please feel free to share it--it's welcome in the Forum, or your welcome to share it privately so as not to derail any other conversation. I have a fair bit of info and knowledge to share here--some of it is "untainted" by my politics--I invite you to re-read some of my posts--you may find some interesting bits in there between my "tirades".

As for you being a snob, it's cool you admit it. I'll leave it at that.

[raisethehammer]

"No offense", ... but ... "you're a waste of time"?

Take offense or not, but I think my six year old knows more about reasoning, rational thought, and openmindedness than you do.



oh brother...last reply to this 6-year old level conversation.
As I think I made clear, I was referring to your posts and the reason I don't reply is because I'd simply be wasting my time.
Talk about snazzy 'editing' jobs. you take the beginning and end of a sentence, slice them together and make the quote sound personal.
Bro, I don't even know you. You might be a great guy. All I know, is I don't reply to most of what you say on here because I think you're just trying to waste my time.
Like this!

[BCTed]

oh brother...last reply to this 6-year old level conversation.
As I think I made clear, I was referring to your posts and the reason I don't reply is because I'd simply be wasting my time.
Talk about snazzy 'editing' jobs. you take the beginning and end of a sentence, slice them together and make the quote sound personal.
Bro, I don't even know you. You might be a great guy. All I know, is I don't reply to most of what you say on here because I think you're just trying to waste my time.
Like this!

No snazzy editing job. "bro, no offense, but I don't reply to you because you're a waste of time..." is just as insulting. I took out five words from the beginning of a sentence and made that clear with ellipses. No big slicing or dicing.

Anyway, maybe I will just let you carry on with your rants and diatribes on the state of affairs completely unopposed. You will have a much better time solving the world's problems without people like me to challenge any of your comments or claims.

[SteelTown]

Chill guys chill!

Have a timbit
http://dougtheslug.ca/images/03.02.12/timbits2.jpg

Don't worry I got half of the timbits from the drive thru and the other half from walking inside. Chill!

[raisethehammer]

haha...classic!
I'm chilled. No worries.

[matt602]

Man those look good...

[coalminecanary]

This Forum is increasingly less about ideas for the future and more about self-rightousness and piety. Seriously, are all of you really that much better than the rest of us? Sure sounds that way.

Hey, no offence but I think part of the problem is that you are taking every argument way too personally. No one is out here to attack you or claim that they are a better person.

As far as self-righteousness goes (as it pertains to drive throughs), I have to call you out on this. In my opinion, any defense of drive throughs is pure self-righteousness. Fact: idling cars pollute. Fact: pollution is harmful to living things. Therefore idling cars harm surrounding living things. [Do I need to look up studies to convince you of this? If so, you might as well stop reading now. If you agree that these two statements are true, then read on.]

Drive throughs cause an increase in idle time for cars. Drive throughs therefore cause harm to living things. The benefit of drive throughs is convenience of the person in the car. Therefore the person in the car is putting their comfort above the health of surrounding living things. If that's not self righteous then I don't know what is.

That being said, I do use drive throughs on occasion. However I would vote for a ban in an instant, and if it passed I'd just have to suck it up and walk in like everyone else.

[fastcarsfreedom]

The timbits do look good--though I will say the switch to "par-baked" goods made and frozen in Brantford and then shipped out to the stores has lessened their appeal. If you want to read a tirade about that, pick up Ron Joyce's autobiography--he really takes Tim Hortons corporate to task for that decision (and regrets selling the business, by the way).

Coalmine--I asked you to find a time when I've been self-righteous or pious--and you didn't. Period. Saying I'm self-righteous for not supporting a ban on Drive-Thrus is a judgement call on your part, which is cool, but doesn't exemplify my supposed piety in this Forum. For the record, I take very little here personally--for instance--I would consider myself neither fat nor lazy, yet I find blanket statements about everyone being fat and lazy to be childish and extraordinarily pious. That's not about things being personal--that's a distaste for empty elitism which does absolutely nothing to advance discussion, understanding or argument.

"Do I need to look up studies to convince you of this? If so, you might as well stop reading now"

For instance, would it have been possible for you to simply state the facts as you see them and present your argument without being condescending? You assume I'm trying to derail the discussion, but I'm not--I'm trying to illustrate that the simple addition of a sentence really makes me want to not care about what you think.

That being said, you make valid points--I'm not arguing that idling cars don't pollute, they do--I'm expressing an opposition to banning Drive-Thrus. There are definitely neighborhoods where Drive Thrus simply don't fit in--I agree with that--and if municipalities want to go about planning initiatives to prevent drive-thrus from popping up in Hess Village for instance--that's fine. The truth is, I'm a daily Tim Hortons customer--and I rarely use the Drive Thru--so if you're assuming this is somehow self-serving--it's really not. At busy times I find it's simply much quicker to go inside and order--for me it's a matter of efficiency to not be sitting in my truck for no reason waiting at the drive thru, when I could be happily down the road, coffee in hand.

Also, if you want your argument to hold some weight, stop using Drive Thrus, immediately.

[coalminecanary]

First, regarding the timbits: that's way more than 20 and a hell of a "snack"!

Second, fastcars I'm just saying that you take too much offense and read too much into a lot of things. For instance, the fat lazy comment was, when I read it, a funny joke. A satire on the bottom line of drive throughs - the fact that they are 100% about convenience. And additionally, i interpret the comment to be a blanket statement that covers everyone, including the original poster himself. That's what makes it funny. It would be self righteous if his comment were more like "good thing everyone else in this country is a fat slob except me".

Additionally, you didn't ask ME to find a time you were self righteous since that request happened way before I even partook in this discussion. I never specifically accused you of self righteousness. This is a perfect example of you taking things too personally. I do not think that you, personally are self righteous so I'm not interested in trying to find an example of it.

My comments about self righteousness aspects of defending drive throughs are just general observations. My comments about looking up studies are done in a joking manner because earlier in the thread someone brought up a question about looking up studies. They aren't meant to be condescending. This is why I think you are taking things too seriously :-p

And finally, I don't have to stop using drive throughs until I start actually chastising people for their use of them. I did not tell anyone they should stop using them. I only support a law that prevents them from existing, forcing us all to not use them for the good of the community. If I were a smoker, and I supported a ban on cigarettes forcing me and all others to stop smoking, it's not hypocritical. If I was a smoker and I told other smokers to stop while I continued, then it would be....

In conclusion, I hope that drive throughs are banned :-)

[raisethehammer]

yea, I agree with coalmine here. just because I oppose new highway construction doesn't mean that I'm never allowed to drive on a highway again.
Our society has been constructed in such a way that gives people no option.
I'd never own a car again if we spent a fraction of the time and money on improving transit in Hamilton and the GTA. It takes hours to get anywhere in our so-called 'heartland of Canada'.
We're embarassing.
I, too, rarely use drivethrus...yet, I've seen some bank machines that are only drive-thru. not even an option to get out, although I still do if there's no lineup. lol.

[realcity]

Ten Reasons why I hate Tim Hortons

1. The standard brown box format is plopped down with no regard for the surrounding neighbourhood. eg. Concession street. Starbucks and Second Cup try to make their buildings fit into the street. eg Second Cup Westdale
2. Drive thrus are more important than people who park and/or walk to the store.
3. No debit machines
4. Caffeine and sugar is not healthy
5. Catering to vehicles wraps the buildings in a constant queue of idling cars, pedestrian have to pass through these sometimes moving cars to enter and exit.
6. Drive thrus cause unnecessary pollution. They really aren't needed. Their existance demands use.
7. started in Hamilton but head office is in Oakville
8. creates hazards on the roads, drivers loose their minds deciding if they want a coffee and can't pass a Tims without slowing down and making erratic turns.
9. dirty washrooms, generic interior
10. rude staff

[raisethehammer]

you pretty much just described every major fast-food and coffee chain in North America...

[fastcarsfreedom]

realcity--that post is just plain bizarre.

Do you not think the King & Hughson Tim Horton's blends just as nicely as the Second Cup in Westdale?

Second Cup, Williams and Starbucks are all busy building suburban stores with Drive Thrus, mostly predicated on the success Tim Hortons has had with the format.

Debit machines cause transaction times to double--and you're worried about the lineups now? The card they've recently launched takes the place of debit.

Also, if you were to sit down and read some corporate history you would understand that Oakville was chosen because it was midway between the homes of Ron Joyce (Burlington) and Tim Horton (Don Mills).

Dirty washrooms and rude staff are in issue the local franchise operator ought to deal with--again, if you hate the place so much, why are you in there long enough to notice?

[DC83]

I believe any Tim's locations that has a unique look were put into an already existing building: Right House, Village Green Ctr in Stoney Creek Village, the one in Ancaster Village, etc.
Every other location is the same piece of crap: prime example, Tim Horton's #1 (Ottawa & Dunsmuire).

I agree w/ every point RealCity makes... I think you're just on this forum for the sake of arguing every point anyone ever makes on here, fastcars.

Realcity: I think Ron Joyce is actually feelin the same way you are.
I believe he said he now regrets selling the Tim's chain?
I, for one, lost all respect for the company when they started to sell Fajitas!?!? WTF!?!?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Wrong again DC83. If you took the time to read my posts THROUGHOUT the Forum, you would see that I am only here to express my opinion--sure there are times that I disagree--often it seems I am the only dissenter. If I see a post I disagree with--you can be darn sure I'm going to say my piece. Your desire to make me and my opinions go away speaks volumes about the strength and validity of the arguments you make. I suppose it's unfortunate for you when someone comes along with differing opinions and interupts you while you're busy patting each other on the back.

The Second Cup in Westdale--which I think is in a great spot--went into an existing building--in fact, it was a hardware store when I was a lad. How does that differ from King & Hughson?

As for Joyce--he expresses regret about selling the chain in his autobiography--which is an excellent read. His concerns mostly surround PR issues and the decision to go with par-baked goods across the board in lieu of keeping at least some products baked in-store. He has some fairly unsavory things to say about Wendys as an organization and about the late Dave Thomas who he paints as an oddly insecure and passive agressive man. Nonetheless, drive-thrus and standardized store designs were all established under Joyce--in fact, the stores have had various standardized designs since the 1970s.

[realcity]

realcity--that post is just plain bizarre.

Do you not think the King & Hughson Tim Horton's blends just as nicely as the Second Cup in Westdale?

Second Cup, Williams and Starbucks are all busy building suburban stores with Drive Thrus, mostly predicated on the success Tim Hortons has had with the format.

Debit machines cause transaction times to double--and you're worried about the lineups now? The card they've recently launched takes the place of debit.

Also, if you were to sit down and read some corporate history you would understand that Oakville was chosen because it was midway between the homes of Ron Joyce (Burlington) and Tim Horton (Don Mills).

Dirty washrooms and rude staff are in issue the local franchise operator ought to deal with--again, if you hate the place so much, why are you in there long enough to notice?


One or two examples of a blended-in Tim Hortons does not qualify the zillion other generic brown boxes. EXAMPLE: CONCESSION STREET

I didn't say Starbucks didn't do the same, but they do make better attempts. In fact, I know that Westcliff Mall (Upper Paradise and Mohawk) was trying to get a Tim Hortons and when they determined that a drive thru wasn't possible they abandoned the location. This location happens to be probably the biggest area void of any Tims and they don't care. No drive thru, No store. And they are no fans of malls, they want a pad site for their brown shitbox.

Debit machines double transaction times? I assume you have the research to verify that. Digging around for pennies takes time too. The truth is Moneris charges per transaction, Tims makes a zillion $2 transactions a day, they don't want to pay the fees and will hold out for as long as possible. McDonalds was in a similar position and boycotted Interac for the longest time. Today the transaction times at a McDonalds are similar to pre-interac days.

Who cares if Oakville is halfway? It still doesn't change the fact they have no office space at all in Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

speaking of the Second Cup in Westdale, I've only been back once since the reno. Brutal. Feels like Upper James now.
My wife and I used to go there regularly...they botched up the interior with that corporate, shiny, trashy reno and we've stopped going now. Don't miss it at all, as we've found other great cafes in town with a comfy vibe to chill in.