[raisethehammer]

I'll post more info tomorrow, but a developer is taking the city to the OMB in January in an attempt to have some of the Innovation District converted to big box retail zoning.
It's the same folks currently building at Clappison's Corners.
Obviously the Innovation Park/District is poised to help lead the turnaround in Hamilton. It's landlocked with no further room for expansion, so it would seem to make no sense to convert some of these lands for big box retail. We need the high paying, new economy R&D jobs planned for this district. Not more minimum wage fast food and retail jobs.
Stay tuned.

[SteelTown]

There's a big by law sign at Aberdeen and Longwood near the CP yard, I think that's where they want to go. Not extactly on the Innovation District land expect across the street right beside to the CP yard.

[fastcarsfreedom]

It really depends "how" the land is developed. Let's not get all excited over losing more "employment lands" before we see what the proposal is. Innovation Park is going to bring a lot of warm-bodies to that area who are going to be a consumer force--looking for everything from retail to restaurant meals. This is also the area that is poised to host much needed hotel space. A properly executed development could easily combine retail/dining elements with other professional and office space.

[matt602]

Seems like a good idea to me actually. I mean, it's not a dense urban neighbourhood to begin with, and with the CP yard there anything that is built there is gonna be slightly detracted by it.

A big box here will go well to service the lower city, but won't detract from it by being right in one of the finer urban centres in the core.

I'm more surprised that Loblaws is coming back to Hamilton so boastfully now. This is their second planned project in the city that I know of (this and Centre Mall - both lower city sites)

[DC83]

If they were to develop the lands in a favourable way (streetwalls, landscaping, mixed-use, etc) then it would be welcome considering all the people at the Innovation Park wouldn't really have anywhere to go on their lunches (besides maybe Kelsey's). They're not likely to walk all the way into Westdale as it's a bit of a walk from the site.

[raisethehammer]

here's the proposed plan...typical layout for big box surrounding a huge parking lot:

http://www.trinity-group.com/?q=node/391

this entire area has been designated the Innovation District.
And yes, the plan calls for some cafes, restaurants and hotels within that district, but not like this.
This takes up over half of the available land space in this district and uses it as only big box and parking.
I don't mind a Loblaws or other stores locating in the district as part of the overall development, but this would be insane for the city to lose half of this district to low-wage retail and surface parking.

The jobs and companies that will be lured here in upcoming years will be the likes of which Hamilton has never seen. This is one of the best opportunities we have to turn the corner. I'd hope the undemocratic stiffs at the OMB side with the city on this one. This would be a bigger mistake than QEW/Centennial or Fifty Rd.
If we have any hope of keeping some of our sharpest Mac grads in town when they graduate, it will be in large part because of this project and downtown revitalization. I'm sure the community will rally good and hard to keep the lands for what they are designated for.

[SteelTown]

http://www.trinity-group.com/index.php?q=system/files&file=images/Hamilton_SITE.gif

I think this land is outside of the Innovation District. Currently this land is a big empty industrial land.

The OMB decision on whether a power centre is a form of industrial employment is going to be a critical decison.

[DC83]

So I was checking out the site on google maps satelite imaging, and I retract my earlier streetwall statement. There is no way they can even create a streetwall as there is only one small chunk of land that faces Chatham St. The rest is already occupied by a warehouse of some sort.

This development reminds me a lot of one at Laird/Eglinton in Toronto... and will probably turn out as ugly, too.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=laird+%26+wicksteed+toronto+on&sll=43.71082,-79.364011&sspn=0.008841,0.024247&ie=UTF8&ll=43.709784,-79.362102&spn=0.00221,0.004302&t=h&z=18&om=1
It was also built on former Industrial Lands with limited amount of space. Not only is the land-use horrible on that site, but the actual buildings themselves look like cartoon, over-sized mcmansions.
A Cpl Examples:
http://www.attune.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/webhmv.jpg
http://www.attune.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/webhmv.jpg

http://www.attune.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/websouthstreet.jpg
http://www.attune.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/websouthstreet.jpg

http://www.attune.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/webbestbuy.jpg
http://www.attune.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/webbestbuy.jpg

Those (above) are all from that big box land at Laird/Eglinton.

[matt602]

Wow that's weak. There was big box in that area before as well but it wasn't too bad. Man, epic fail.

[SteelTown]

This will be a very well hidden big box. You drive under the bridge at Aberdeen and you might miss it.

[DC83]

This will be a very well hidden big box. You drive under the bridge at Aberdeen and you might miss it.

Ya, that's why I don't understand!?
And there seems to be like a small ravine or something that seperates this land from the Innovation land!?

[raisethehammer]

you guys are confusing McMaster's own Innovation Park with the city's surrounding Innovation District.
The hope is to have spin-off companies locate here due to the success of the Innovation Park. The entire area is called the Innovation District. This big box plan effectively eliminates the city's plan for more spin off companies and good jobs by using the entire area for big box.

[SteelTown]

And there seems to be like a small ravine or something that seperates this land from the Innovation land!?

That's Chedoke creek, by the golf course there's a large waterfall and all the water gets combined together to form Chedoke creek.

[SteelTown]

you guys are confusing McMaster's own Innovation Park with the city's surrounding Innovation District.
The hope is to have spin-off companies locate here due to the success of the Innovation Park. The entire area is called the Innovation District. This big box plan effectively eliminates the city's plan for more spin off companies and good jobs by using the entire area for big box.

Question! The area is currently industrial, like warehouses and stuff but can a bylaw more specific like industrial land for R&D (research and development)? If that's the case the by law will be more specific and the city has a better chance protecting this land (and to OMB) from big box because as you see big boxes are using industrial land as an excuse for employment and therefore it's typically industrial.

[SteelTown]

If somehow the big box wins I can see this development instally getting all the retails to sign up. This is a good area for retail, just not for this location, as the Western edge of Hamilton will boom and the area really lacks retail, a single grocery store in the whole area, Dundurn and most of the time it's packed.

[flar]

^^There is also The Barn is at Longwoods and King

This land should absolutely be kept for high tech industry and research. Dundurn Plaza should be redeveloped, they could fit a lot more stuff on that property.

[SteelTown]

There's been talks of re-doing the Dundurn Plaza for years now. Nothing ever happens, think there's a new owner of that Fortinos store though.

But I have a feeling the Dundurn Plaza will get redeveloped soon. That house on Dundurn is still up and Fortinos now own it so they haven't knocked it down yet. So perhaps they are working on a new blueprint and start demoing buildings by buildings.

[DC83]

There's been talks of re-doing the Dundurn Plaza for years now. Nothing ever happens, think there's a new owner of that Fortinos store though.

But I have a feeling the Dundurn Plaza will get redeveloped soon. That house on Dundurn is still up and Fortinos now own it so they haven't knocked it down yet. So perhaps they are working on a new blueprint and start demoing buildings by buildings.

Let's hope that includes bringing retail to the streetfront (for Dundurn Plaza).
They could really make a real estate killing on that land if they were to build a condo tower or two... the views alone would sell all the units: East = Downtown Skyline, West = Westdale/Mac, North = Dundurn Park/Burlington Bay, South = The Escarpment/Durand & Kirkendall aka Steepletown haha
Streetfront retail + condos + rear parking = one great big urban development.
ps: Let's not forget to incorporate a great Transit Station for LRT.

[raisethehammer]

I, too, wish that Dundurn Plaza would be redeveloped, but during the Strathcona Secondary Planning meetings it became apparent that it won't be happening anytime soon, if ever.
The owner was somewhat intrested, but not really, in the idea.
However, any interest he had was killed upon learning that the folks who run that factory across the other side of Main St made it clear that they would challenge any residential development there since the plaza falls within their boundary zone. in other words, boundary zones are set up giving a minimum distance that needs to exist between residential and industry...I forget how many metres it is.
the plaza falls within that zone.

the strathcona secondary plan are now changing their maps to take out the "possible redevelopment" phrase from Dundurn Plaza.

[raisethehammer]

more info here from the city:

http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/cityandgovernment/citydepartments/planningecdev/development/communityplanning/specialprojects/whia.htm

[Jon Dalton]

Hamilton desperately needs some land for new industry that isn't Nebo Road or Upper Centennial Parkway. This location is perfect, it's close to the highway and also close to the downtown core. I hope they keep it zoned for industry and promote it instead of Glanbrook or Mount Hope.

[markbarbera]

Again, it would be foolish to foresake employment land abutting the McMaster Innovation Park for retail rather than allowing it for related industry. Honestly, this city is going to be saturated with Big Box Outlets, then a good chunk of them will be vacant 10-15 years from now.

[coalminecanary]

In case you missed it in the power centre thread, i wrote up a piece on this ridiculous big box proposal: http://hammerboard.ca/viewtopic.php?t=102

[DC83]

City fights big-box bid in Mac's Innovation Park

December 28, 2007

Dana Brown

The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 28, 2007)

The city is gearing up to protect its zoning of the area around the McMaster Innovation Park to stop a proposed big-box development.

Trinity Development Group Inc. has a conditional offer on about 15 hectares (37 acres) of land near the park, 10 hectares of which can be developed.

Trinity has a proposed automotive tenant for part of the land, but zoning would have to be changed before the store could go ahead.

The lands all fall within the West Hamilton Innovation District, which was specifically zoned to support the innovation park.

The district is roughly bounded by Aberdeen, the CP rail line, Main Street West and Highway 403. It encompasses the innovation park located along Longwood Road South.

"We, at this point, I think disagree 100 per cent with their concept," said Ward 1 Councillor Brian McHattie.

Trinity has appealed to the Ontario Municipal Board and a full hearing on the issue is tentatively set for February.

McHattie said the work the city has done in the district -- putting an interim control bylaw in place for two years to study the area and essentially freeze land use changes -- is tied into the province's Places to Grow Act.

The act stipulates that a certain percentage of residential development must be achieved through intensification and a certain number of jobs must be produced per hectare.

When complete, it's estimated the district could provide 1,500 well-paying jobs.

Al Fletcher, senior project manager with the city, said the concept plan Trinity presented to the city calls for about 325,000 square feet in retail space, about 101,000 square feet in office space and about 27,000 square feet of restaurant space.

As for the major automotive tenant?

"I've heard so many different rumours, I'm not sure what it is," Fletcher said. "When we asked them directly, there wasn't an answer."

Trinity is also the company responsible for developing an area around Clappison's Corners.

A call to Trinity Development Group Inc. for comment was not returned but the company lists Canadian Tire and PartSource as tenants at other developments.

McHattie said he thinks it's important to support the "BIA-style of retail" and that big-box stores tend to have a negative impact on neighbourhood mom-and-pop shops.

"The other thing that comes to mind is the traffic that would be generated by such a development," he said. "And we certainly don't have a lot of traffic capacity."

The McMaster Innovation Park was meant to be a vehicle to take research from the university and commercialize it, McHattie said.

The park recently announced the formation of an advisory board to help guide the relocation of CANMET-Materials Technology, the park's anchor tenant, from Ottawa to Hamilton.

The laboratory will be home to 100 top federal scientists.

A public meeting has been scheduled Jan. 10 to provide an update on the OMB appeal, with city staff present to answer questions. The meeting is set for 7 p.m. at St. Joseph's Church, 260 Herkimer St., in the basement of the parish hall. An OMB pre-hearing is set for Jan. 15.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/302043

[DC83]

^^ Well it's good to see we have a couple people on Council with a brain!

[raisethehammer]

this will be one well-attended meeting. come one, come all.

[realcity]

The city is shoveling the "lack of shovel ready land excuse" bullshit into our faces.

[raisethehammer]

the main point here is "1,500 WELL-PAYING JOBS".
Something we've completely left behind in recent decades. This land is primed and ready for an influx of new jobs in R&D and technology. To allow Partsource or Crappy Tire to locate instead would be a travesty.

[coalminecanary]

realcity, the city is against the trinity development and seems to be 100% for maintaining research zoning to allow for expansion of high quality jobs. i don't see any shit shovelling in this case...

[SteelTown]

Now you know where Canadian Tire wants to relocate from Main St to.

[coalminecanary]

lame. they should take the first floor of the fed builidng. but whatever, cantire now builds mega boxes just like all the rest. i personally like the dundas and main st stores.. they have classic cantire character, especially dundas with the mini 2nd floor balcony. i hate the new cantire stores. why does the ceiling have to be 50 feet high? who pays to heat that? customers do.

[DC83]

^^ Cdn Tire #1 (Yonge/Church-Davenport) in Toronto is actually a great site! It's 2 floors, built right up to the street, and has big windows facing Yonge St.
The only thing I don't like is how they turned the original store into a Pkng Lot Entrance & put storage in the upper lever.
But to see Cdn Tire build a mega-store'esq store in downtown Toronto w/o making a true "mega"-store is impressive!

OH! And they're actually turning it's pkng lot into a high-rise condo :D

[DC83]

here's something I didn't know:

The first Canadian Tire store opened on September 15, 1922 in Toronto, Ontario by J. William Billes and Alfred J. Billes. This store, which was located at the corner of Yonge and Isabella, bought Hamilton Tire and Garage Ltd. in Toronto's east end with combined savings of $1,800.[1] In 1934, the first official associate store opened in Hamilton, Ontario.[2] In 1937, the store and head office was moved to Yonge St. and Church St. This location remains as an associate store in the chain today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire

[raisethehammer]

I hope the Main/Wellington store doesn't move to the west end. The locals in the central city need easy access to a store like that. They were going to go to Ferguson and Barton but got scared by Wesley Urban homeless shelter across the street. That would be a much better site than 403 and Aberdeen.

[DC83]

I hope the Main/Wellington store doesn't move to the west end. The locals in the central city need easy access to a store like that. They were going to go to Ferguson and Barton but got scared by Wesley Urban homeless shelter across the street. That would be a much better site than 403 and Aberdeen.

The Ferguson/Barton site would be big box as well tho. That's why they wanted it there. And who wouldn't be afraid of that stretch? It's a huge problem that needs to be fixed ASAP!!

I would really like for them to tear down it's current site and build new at Main/Victoria. It CAN be two-level like the one at Yonge/Church in TO. The escalators are pretty much angled peoplemovers so that carts can go from floor to floor. I don't really know if they 'need' a fuel station anymore if they have the mega-store format put in as there is so much other crap ppl will buy than the current tools & fixtures they have there now.

When I go to this location, it's for specific items: hockey equip, CFL bulbs, screws & nuts... but when I go to Upper James or Nash/Queenston, I tend to buy more stuff since there is more to buy.

[raisethehammer]

good point DC....rebuilding right where they are would be ideal.
I'm just saying IF they find a site in the lower city where they build a single store, I hope it would be somewhere in that 'inner city' area, not the west end.
I really can't see this Aberdeen plan getting approved. It would be a huge setback for the city in every way. Even the OMB isn't dumb enough to allow that.

[coalminecanary]

They might not be dumb but they might be very.. let's say "malleable" when it comes to the developers. Let's not assume that all will be well if we keep quiet. I am hoping to see everyone I know at the Jan 10 meeting and a significant portion of them again on the 15th. This is one seemingly small decision that will have a huge impact on the entire city for a very long time - we can't afford to hit the rewind button for 10 years. That innovation designation was a huge step forward. We need to audibly and visibly rally around council when they make good decisions like that so that they are encouraged to do so again in the future.

[raisethehammer]

upcoming meeting:

http://brianmchattie.ca/wardmeetings.php#2008-01-10_wm_23

[markbarbera]

I, too, wish that Dundurn Plaza would be redeveloped, but during the Strathcona Secondary Planning meetings it became apparent that it won't be happening anytime soon, if ever.
The owner was somewhat intrested, but not really, in the idea.
However, any interest he had was killed upon learning that the folks who run that factory across the other side of Main St made it clear that they would challenge any residential development there since the plaza falls within their boundary zone. in other words, boundary zones are set up giving a minimum distance that needs to exist between residential and industry...I forget how many metres it is.
the plaza falls within that zone.

the strathcona secondary plan are now changing their maps to take out the "possible redevelopment" phrase from Dundurn Plaza.

RTH, I'm not sure if the concern is about proximity to neighbouring industrial zoning. The cause for concern could be that most of the actual Dundurn Plaza site's original zoning was for industrial use, which received a variance to develop the current strip mall.

[raisethehammer]

I may be wrong, but I think it's a combination of both of those issues.
The factory on the other side of Main has said they will fight any attempt to put residential on the Fortino's site. Probably for the reason you've stated.

[fastcarsfreedom]

For those of you around the Hammer in the 1980s--the Fortinos site was occupied by Slater Steel...hence those lower level loading docks you see if you look eastward on the McKittrick Bridge. I may be wrong, but I believe some of the Slater Steel structure was retained when the site was redeveloped--initially by Quebec-grocer Super C--which sold it's Ontario stores to Loblaws--hence the conversion to Fortinos. St. Hubert BBQ, Belamy's and Carvel Ice Cream where also among the first tenants.

[raisethehammer]

anyone attend the meeting tonight on this??

[matt602]

For those of you around the Hammer in the 1980s--the Fortinos site was occupied by Slater Steel...hence those lower level loading docks you see if you look eastward on the McKittrick Bridge. I may be wrong, but I believe some of the Slater Steel structure was retained when the site was redeveloped--initially by Quebec-grocer Super C--which sold it's Ontario stores to Loblaws--hence the conversion to Fortinos. St. Hubert BBQ, Belamy's and Carvel Ice Cream where also among the first tenants.

I didn't know any of that. Pretty cool.

[SteelTown]

Developer plans big box stores near innovation park

John Burman
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jan 11, 2008)

West Hamilton residents are worried about traffic and want to see real jobs created on the land east of the McMaster Innovation Park.

At a public meeting last night, Trinity Development Corp Inc. explained its plans -- a mix of retail and office/commercial uses on a people-friendly streetscape on one side and big box operations on the other -- for part of 15 hectares of land between the innovation park and the CP rail lines.

Residents of the Kirkendall neighbourhood at the information session at St. Joseph's Church were worried about the size of the project and wanted to know about the potential impact of increased traffic at the south end of the project at Aberdeen Avenue. They asked why the project couldn't have some residential development in it.

People were also interested in who the tenants of the project might be -- there have been hints of a big automotive or home renovation type store -- and supported the city's plan for the area to generate employment beyond retail jobs.

"This is not Meadowlands," a development Trinity did in Ancaster, Mike Foley, the developer's associate vice-president of development told the standing room only crowd.

"This is on a much smaller scale," he said, highlighting a scale drawing which placed the development at about a quarter the size of Meadowlands.

Foley, who grew up on Dundurn Street, noted the development could also replace some of the services the neighbourhood has lost over the years such as a hardware store, food store and financial services.

While the streetscape retail and commercial portion of the project fits with the city's holding zoning for what it calls the West Hamilton Innovation District, Trinity's plans to have one or two big box anchor stores does not.

Trinity, which has a conditional offer on the lands, has appealed to the Ontario Municipal Board and a full hearing is tentatively set for next month.

Hamilton planner Al Stewart told the audience the city wants to protect the lands for future employment.

The city's vision is to provide a home close by for the industry and employment growth expected to flow from the McMaster Innovation Park.

While it may take much longer to develop the lands for employment than for retail, Stewart said the city is looking for clean industry with supportive community uses and retail to serve the surrounding area and the innovation park.

"Provincial legislation requires us to protect employment areas," he said. "This is what we are trying to do."

Zach Douglas, president and CEO of the innovation park, told the residents the project is moving along well, with the first research tenants expected to move into the newly renovated red brick former Camco appliances head office building on Longwood Road in April.

Construction should start on the $35 to $40 million CANMET-Materials Technology building, the park's anchor tenant, this fall .

The extension of Frid Street through to Longwood Road should fall between the CANMET building and the Engineering Technology Centre to be built south of CANMET early in 2009.

The park also has an agreement with Hamilton hotelier Oscar Kichi to build a hotel with about 138 units north and east of the red Camco building.

[DC83]

Sweet. Sounds like the Kirkendall neighbours really understand good development!

They asked why the project couldn't have some residential development in it.


I'm feeling pretty positive this development will NOT happen. The OMB wont allow such development esp if the city has it earmarked for PERMANANT jobs!

[highwater]

I'm not as positive as I once was, since according to an article about the meeting at RTH (http://www.raisethehammer.org/blog.asp?id=903), the city is 'supportive' of Trinity's concept although still unwilling to change the zoning. Not sure how that's possible as Trinity's offer on the land is conditional on the zoning change, but then I wasn't there. Also, Mac has promised Trinity that it won't oppose the rezoning! Apparently they've worked out some kind of icky 'deal'. Backroom dealmaking strikes again.

[raisethehammer]

shhh, don't say that too loud. Someone on here might scold you for criticizing the backroom dealing. You and I are the ones who are supposed to shut up and have no input. All the big wigs in town are allowed to have sneaky backroom dealings. Remember, we're the special interest groups, not those with money on the line. Oh wait a minute, I forgot; we're the taxpayers and voters. :koko:

[DC83]

hahahaha on the subject of backroom deals and whatnot, if it weren't for "the little guy" or people with "special interests", we would never know DiIanni was a TRUE crook (accepting too much $$$ for his campaign from Losani Homes, & Co).

And he would have gotten away with it, too... if it weren't for that pesky chick (Joanna Chapman)!!

And he'll be running Federally soon! What a joke!

Soooo what's wrong w/ Special Interest Groups? Aren't they in existence to ensure gov'ts act according to voters wishes?

[raisethehammer]

"special interest groups" are actually ordinary joes who care a little about their city or town.
the media and corrupt back-room crowd do a great job trying to paint us joe's as the 'bad guy' in this whole thing we call democracy.

[the dude]

I'm feeling pretty positive this development will NOT happen. The OMB wont allow such development esp if the city has it earmarked for PERMANANT jobs!

don't expect the OMB to do you any favours. they exist to allow developers to side-step citizen groups. anyway, it sounds as though the outcome is fairly academic now, so it doesn't really matter.

[SteelTown]

I'm looking at this big box plan that was provided during the meeting and I'm liking it. I like how they'll pay for the Frid St extention and include curb side parking along Frid St. That's a big difference from typical big box format. Plus it's got big sidewalks.

I just have two main issues with this plan though. The enterance I see as a problem from Aberdeen and I would like them to block off the parking lot view from Aberdeen which they don't under the plan.

It'll betcha that either the Beer Store or LCBO will relocate to this area from Dundurn in the future.

[DC83]

I'm looking at this big box plan that was provided during the meeting and I'm liking it. I like how they'll pay for the Frid St extention and include curb side parking along Frid St. That's a big difference from typical big box format. Plus it's got big sidewalks.

I just have two main issues with this plan though. The enterance I see as a problem from Aberdeen and I would like them to block off the parking lot view from Aberdeen which they don't under the plan.

It'll betcha that either the Beer Store or LCBO will relocate to this area from Dundurn in the future.

Any renderings? Would the stores have street-front entrances? I can't see how in this area?

[oldcoote]

RaisetheHammer has links.

The latest site plan is a drastic improvement over the initial one.

That anchor tenant at 92000 square feet? Better not be a WalMart.

[SteelTown]

Yea check out RTH website.

Later on today I'll cut and paste the plans and photos here, just a tad busy at the moment.

[DC83]

That anchor tenant at 92000 square feet? Better not be a WalMart.

I'm assuming it would be a new, mega-Canadian Tire Store. They said the "major retailer" would be a "major automotive chain". And their new stores are HUGE!

[HAMRetrofit]

http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/trinity_mip_layout.jpg

Its actually not terrible. It will probally make the MIP more attractive to some.

If the community pushes it to be better it could be great. They should demand higher caliber design like the MIP. The buildings should be LEED certified and encourage more walkability. They should encourage some mixed-use residential space as well. If everyone pushes hard for what they want instead of fighting against it things will be much better off in the end.

The automotive store is probably Partsource.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the MIP running out of space. A new one could always be created elsewhere in the city. There are plenty more brownfields and greyfields to redevelop.

[fastcarsfreedom]

92,000 sq. ft. is WAY too small for Wal*Mart. A Supercenter can run as much as 175,000 sq. ft. Canadian Tire makes potential sense--this would undoubtedly be the relocation from Main and Victoria. I believe Real Canadian Superstore was also discussed at one point for this development. If they continue to work and rework this plan into something that is a positive for this incredible new job/development node in the city, then the result will be positive.

[markbarbera]

If it is Canadian Tire considering this spot, then it would be more likely the relocated Dundas store. The King and Victoria shop is looking to move to Barton and Ferguson.

[SteelTown]

Yea I'm surprised Wal Mart and Canadian Tire is still willing to go to Barton and Ferguson.

[raisethehammer]

no way this is going to happen. It's not easy to just make another MIP somewhere else.
All of this land needs to be incorporated into MIP - Innovation District. We've got enough of this stand-alone development everywhere else in town.
The long term plan for MIP includes streetfront retail, so whoever the retailers are that are interested here, they should work with MIP to land some of those retail spaces.
Don't be fooled by snazzy renderings or talk of LEEDS. Look at their track record. it'll be big box sprawl at it's finest.

[DC83]

http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/trinity_mip_layout.jpg

Trinity's track record is indeed scary! However, by the looks of this rendering it seems as though they are hiding the majority of the surface parking behind the bldgs (which is a good thing). All that would be useless still if the stores don't open onto the Frid St Extension.

Agreed, rth. This land should be used for the MIP. But why not incorporate a mix-use? Big box on ground-level, office space ontop? Ryerson did this with Canadian Tire & Best Buy at Dundas/Univeristy.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/103/302386570_0f43f8cd76.jpg?v=0
by CondoTech on Flickr.com, http://flickr.com/photos/tuannguyen/302386570/

I'm sure something similar could be done here for MIP.

[oldcoote]

:previous:

I love that streetfront Canadian Tire.

[HAMRetrofit]

no way this is going to happen. It's not easy to just make another MIP somewhere else.

It is not that bad. All that needs to happen is the University needs to buy the land, develop a business plan, and start asking for funding from the Province and Feds. (okay it is a bit more complex but generally that is it)

McMaster does not own the Trinity site so they do not have control over it. All that they own is the former Camco site. So if the MIP was to expand they would need to redo the process anyways.Its best hope is to push towards a development that is going to best benefit the surrounding community.

The city has the initial say over the approval of the site plan. With maximum community input, more mixed use could be proposed for it. The developers will want to avoid going to the OMB and will compromise, which they already have. If not it will go to the OMB who will likely approve it, probably with whatever plan that is developed at the time.

[raisethehammer]

Trinity's track record is indeed scary! However, by the looks of this rendering it seems as though they are hiding the majority of the surface parking behind the bldgs (which is a good thing). All that would be useless still if the stores don't open onto the Frid St Extension.

Agreed, rth. This land should be used for the MIP. But why not incorporate a mix-use? Big box on ground-level, office space ontop? Ryerson did this with Canadian Tire & Best Buy at Dundas/Univeristy.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/103/302386570_0f43f8cd76.jpg?v=0
by CondoTech on Flickr.com, http://flickr.com/photos/tuannguyen/302386570/

I'm sure something similar could be done here for MIP.


Can you please send that email to everyone possible at city hall. Councillors, Mayor, Downtown Renewal, EcDev .... honestly, it would be so easy to get some of these major retailers downtown in projects like that. the Barton/Ferguson thing is ticking me off because that's how neighbours were told it would be developed, but as usual, a big fat lie. It'll be stand along, crap-boxes.

Something like that would be great in MIP. The space in that park is simply too valuable to waste on single story buildings and huge parking lots (whether they are behind or in front of buildings). MIP Master Plan has no surface parking once it's built out. The entire district needs to follow suit.

[Jon Dalton]

All the Canadian Tire stores lately have been HUGE. Look at the one that replaced Queenston Mall, the expanded Upper James location, the Ancaster one. I doubt they would consider the MIP location large enough, or that they would consider mixed use in such a location.

The city's Ec. Dev. team should be hunting down developers from across the country who build along new urbanist principles, and pitching our vacant land to them. Maybe they already are but nobody's interested?

Imagine what could have happened to Centre Mall in the right hands. That land would have been prime for urban infill. We can do better with the MIP area.

[raisethehammer]

All the Canadian Tire stores lately have been HUGE. Look at the one that replaced Queenston Mall, the expanded Upper James location, the Ancaster one. I doubt they would consider the MIP location large enough, or that they would consider mixed use in such a location.

The city's Ec. Dev. team should be hunting down developers from across the country who build along new urbanist principles, and pitching our vacant land to them. Maybe they already are but nobody's interested?

Imagine what could have happened to Centre Mall in the right hands. That land would have been prime for urban infill. We can do better with the MIP area.


I promise you they haven't. Giving this crew an extra $1.5 million for EcDev should result in an accelerated pace of sprawl...it's all they know and care about.

[SteelTown]

Here's a close up of Frid St, you can see big sidewalks, tress and curb side parking, a bonus!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/fridst.jpg

Frid St would look something like this
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/fridst1.jpg

The sidewalk and curb side parking
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/fridst2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/fridst3.jpg

[BCTed]

[IMG]
The automotive store is probably Partsource.


92,000 square feet is waaaay too large for a PartSource store.

[flar]

Parts of uptown Waterloo look like the pics Steeltown posted.


edit: Pics from Uptown Waterloo. The people I talked to there seemed to like these places but I'd like to see a second or third floor added:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/waterloo/00007.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/waterloo/00017.jpg

[raisethehammer]

as much as I like the photos shown by both Steeltown and Flar, I just don't think this big box proposal would end up looking anything like those pics. wer'e talking a big Canadian Tire store and some other one-floor retailers (the usual Meadowlands suspects). I'd take Gourmet Pizza, Tadpoles and All About Crepes any day of the week over what Trinity will do if this proposal is allowed. Note: I've never been to Waterloo, or any of the places mentioned, I just wanted to make the point that you can see all 3 of those shops in one small photo that is taken from a fairly close distance. If that picture was taken at the same depth of this Canadian Tire store (assuming it is, that's what I've been told by city hall) the photo would consist of the C-A-N in CANADIAN TIRE and that's it. a big huge, empty stucco wall with 3 bright red letters.

I'm sorry, as a local resident expecting the Innovation District to impact our economy in a mighty way, I can't support massive surface parking and one storey boxes. Ancaster and Waterdown can keep them. I want Hamilton to experience true growth and true success again, and MIP is ground zero.

[HAMRetrofit]

^ What do you suggest for the Trinity site that is not already proposed for by MIP?

Based on the posted site plan (if I were a resident) I would want to see street facing retail increased. I would ask to have surface parking reduced by about 30% with a possible multilevel parkade instead. I would ask for at least one multilevel mixed use building that includes residential. Last, I would like to see some type of green space incorporated into the plan.

[raisethehammer]

I would ask for the same things as you, but only moreso. Remove about 85-90% of surface parking and replace in parkades, like MIP is going to do. The other 10-15% of parking can be parallel parking on the street. All buildings should be multi-storey and developed along with MIP. In other words, upper levels should house new research firms, biotech firms etc....kind of like that university photo from TO. Residential and hotel space on upper floors would be good too. In other words, they should just join in with MIP and develop their retail within the design plan and framework of MIP. I realize Hamilton has become a pro at wasting land, but we're landlocked here and simply can't afford to.

[highwater]

I'm in total agreement with RTH on this one. Last I heard the city was hopeful about its chances at the OMB. This land needs to be prioritized for high-skilled R&D jobs with supporting retail. I'm not ready to throw in the towel and start talking about how we can turn the inevitable big box hell into lemon-scented big box hell.

[raisethehammer]

there's virtually no chance that the OMB will allow the big box stuff to move forward. I know the OMB blows, but this is a pretty simple case. For once, the city has all it's ducks in a row and it's very clear and easy to follow. Trinity is simply doing this because they know there's always the outside chance you could get the OMB on a day when they've all been doing crack. And because they can afford it. They have no regard for you and I or Hamilton. In fact, they're making taxpayers waste money on this OMB procedure.

[fastcarsfreedom]

They have no regard for you and I or Hamilton. In fact, they're making taxpayers waste money on this OMB procedure.

RTH, you and I despise the OMB for entirely different reasons--I see a bloated government body that has a history of meddling and interfering with property rights and allowing other private enterprises to engage in anti-competitive business practices. Nonetheless, saying that Trinity is forcing a waste of taxpayer money is a stretch and an over-simplification. It can just as easily be said that the City is the one spending the dollars to fight this proposal when they could easily choose not to. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The verdict is out on this proposal as far as I am concerned--however, in fairness, what percentage of land in the enterprise zone does this property consist of? Designed properly a project like this could act as a catalyst to attracting other enterprises to the area.

[raisethehammer]

They have no regard for you and I or Hamilton. In fact, they're making taxpayers waste money on this OMB procedure.

RTH, you and I despise the OMB for entirely different reasons--I see a bloated government body that has a history of meddling and interfering with property rights and allowing other private enterprises to engage in anti-competitive business practices. Nonetheless, saying that Trinity is forcing a waste of taxpayer money is a stretch and an over-simplification. It can just as easily be said that the City is the one spending the dollars to fight this proposal when they could easily choose not to. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The verdict is out on this proposal as far as I am concerned--however, in fairness, what percentage of land in the enterprise zone does this property consist of? Designed properly a project like this could act as a catalyst to attracting other enterprises to the area.


no, it sounds like we both despise the OMB for the same reaons. You seem to be forgetting who is taking whom to the OMB here. Trinity is taking the city. Thanks to the lame set-up at the OMB the city has no choice but to pay the money and defend itself. A case this simple should allow the OMB to tell all parties to not waste their time and money...but no sir, why would they do that when they can get more of our money for a hallow exercise.

[markbarbera]

All the Canadian Tire stores lately have been HUGE. Look at the one that replaced Queenston Mall, the expanded Upper James location, the Ancaster one.

The Queenston and Ancaster Canadian Tire sites are the newer 20/20 concept. Upper James was renovated prior to the concept, and would be considered too small if it were being considered for renovations today - which I readliy agree with since it suffers from that frustrating Walmart-type aisle congestion. Queenston is my new favourite Canadian Tire, with its airy feel and roomy aisles. While generally disappointed with the Centre Mall redevelopment plans, I will nonetheless enjoy being in close proximity to the newest Canadian Tire concept once its built there.

I have been to the new Lowes here in town several times since it opened. I have to say the novelty wore off pretty fast. I found on a couple of visits that a lot of their stock is, well, not in stock. Funny, because that is my biggest pet peeve with Canadian Tire. The help buttons are fun to play with though. By the way, I was at the Ancaster Canadian Tire a couple of weeks ago and I noticed that they have now installed a similar help button system.

[markbarbera]

It can just as easily be said that the City is the one spending the dollars to fight this proposal when they could easily choose not to. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Not at all. The city has an obligation to its citizens to enforce the bylaws of the city, including zoning. Choosing not to tells developers they can completely disregard neighbourhood planning and build whatever they damn well please, regardless of the implications on the city's health and well-being.

[SteelTown]

Puff....even with the button for Canadian Tire it would be useless. Every time I ask for something at Canadian Tire I get a 15 year old kid that's clueless and just points the direction of where it's at.

[fastcarsfreedom]

We could blow this open into a broader discussion about zoning--but I'm going to avoid that. I have long felt the OMB is a complete joke--but my reasons for disliking it run counter to the reasons being expressed here. I take issue with the spirit of the body entirely--but like I said, that's a completely different discussion. I stand corrected on my previous post--if the city is defending itself it does have an obligation--my bad. When I think OMB I think of the days when the Ancaster Costco (Price Club) couldn't sell meat because of a motion filed by Loblaws.

Canadian Tire's newest concept is excellent--but it's true--it's plate is generally much larger than 90,000 sq ft-ish, though they do have a smaller-market derivative of the concept. They have switched to a more 'soft goods' appearance for the format--lowering shelf heights to allow clear sight-lines to all parts of the store. They are also quickly rolling out the Marks "store-within-a-store" concept--I believe this is in place in Waterdown, if not additional 20/20 locations in and around Hamilton.

I'm seeking clarification on this proposal--where does it stand? What is the current zoning for the site? Did Trinity buy with the intent of seeking a zoning change which has been affected by Places To Grow?

[highwater]

I'm seeking clarification on this proposal--where does it stand? What is the current zoning for the site? Did Trinity buy with the intent of seeking a zoning change which has been affected by Places To Grow?

You can find an update on where this proposal stands on Brian McHattie's website at

http://www.brianmchattie.ca/page2.php?id=53

The city ammended the official plan to create a special policy district known as the West Hamilton Innovation District. The bylaw describes the intent as follows:

"The West Hamilton Innovation District Secondary Plan Area will function as a centre of
innovation for corporate, academic and government research in science and technology
and will be recognized as a major entry point into the City. This prestige employment
community will establish architectural presence along Highway 403 and a streetoriented
design along the interior public roads. The development of knowledge-based
activities will allow for the eventual production of goods and materials enabling
companies to remain and grow within the Innovation District.
The establishment of partnerships between education, the City, other levels of
government and the business community will spark the development of a dynamic
community and create synergies that will encourage innovation, economic growth and
new business opportunities. The Innovation District will be enhanced by supportive
commercial, educational and residential uses which will contribute to the transformation
of the area into an integrated first rate research community. Pedestrian activity and
interaction will be encouraged through the creation of attractive streetscapes, innovative
building design and the provision of publicly accessible spaces. The improvement and
development of existing and new linkages will enhance access to accommodate
motorists, pedestrians, cyclists, public transit and goods movement within, through and
around the Innovation District."

Needless to say, all this will be lost if the land is used for surface parking and big box retail as Trinity is proposing. Trinity is challenging the city's zoning and is seeking to have the land reverted to K zoning which basically allows for everything except residential. Trinity does not yet own the land in question but has an offer conditional on the zoning change.

[fastcarsfreedom]

10-4 thanks for the clarification.

[SteelTown]

This location would be perfect for a factory outlet type of retail. I wish Hamilton had a factory outlet, I always go to Niagara Falls for my fix.

My bet is that Canadian Tire won't locate here but Part Source and Mark's Work Warehouse. Instead I'll say it'll be a Sobey's, it's big enough for a Sobey's, Sobey's has been wanting to get into Lower Hamilton.

[highwater]

This location would be even better for high tech firms providing the real jobs that this city so desperately needs. Lets pray the city wins this one. If they don't, it really doesn't matter which brand of crap they throw up there, it will still be crap.

[DC83]

http://www.victoriagardensie.com/index.cfm


Here's that same Victoria Gardens place they used in their presentation:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/victoria_garden.jpg
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=34.111272,-117.532918&spn=0.008332,0.021501&t=k&z=16

[SteelTown]

^ That's somewhat an improvement though. Add restaurants along the back to block some of the parking lot view and it would be better.

[DC83]

^^ Oh ya. The MIP one doesn't even have that much room anyway. And it seems as though the lots are mostly inclosed by the retail blocks.

http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/trinity_mip_layout.jpg

They could always add some residential into the lots that face the street.

[HAMRetrofit]

They should be forced to ensure that the development includes research and employment uses. However, there is no problem with adding retail as long as these requirements are made first. The plan needs to be drawn up to include light industrial uses too. The development needs to be multileved and create better street frontage. There is no reason why some type of research/light industrial condos can't be included in the scheme.

[coalminecanary]

I'm looking at this big box plan that was provided during the meeting and I'm liking it. I like how they'll pay for the Frid St extention and include curb side parking along Frid St. That's a big difference from typical big box format. Plus it's got big sidewalks.

The latest site plan is a drastic improvement over the initial one.

Guys, I have to make a huge point here. This rendering means nothing. Really. The one they had on their webpage is probably a more likely result. This is all lip service. They knew they were going into the meeting as the "enemy" and they presented a completely different plan to the citizens than the one they had been presenting to the potential retailers.

They are fighting for reverting the zoning back to "K" which means "anything except residential". If they win, and the zoning is reverted, you can throw all of these pretty pictures in the garbage because the final plan will be the one that makes the most money in the shortest amount of time, allowing them to leave the site with a pile of cash and absolutely no regard for the long term effects.

Do not be fooled by their claims! Once the zoning is reverted to "K", they can do whatever the hell they want and the city can't say squat.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the MIP running out of space. A new one could always be created elsewhere in the city. There are plenty more brownfields and greyfields to redevelop.

Let's be honest... high tech firms are not just going to show up begging to redevelop our brownfields. The main attraction for any research company is going to be proximity to the MIP and being physically part of the site. Once this land is used up that's it. There is limited space there and I'd rather see it sit vacant for 10 years and wait for REAL development with REAL jobs.

It's not easy to just make another MIP somewhere else.
All of this land needs to be incorporated into MIP - Innovation District. We've got enough of this stand-alone development everywhere else in town.
The long term plan for MIP includes streetfront retail, so whoever the retailers are that are interested here, they should work with MIP to land some of those retail spaces.
Don't be fooled by snazzy renderings or talk of LEEDS. Look at their track record. it'll be big box sprawl at it's finest.

You are bang on.

It is not that bad. All that needs to happen is the University needs to buy the land, develop a business plan, and start asking for funding from the Province and Feds.

They have already done this for MIP. Don't let Trinity throw their hard work out the window. McMaster has put some faith and money into Hamilton for a change. We need to take full advantage of that.

McMaster does not own the Trinity site so they do not have control over it. All that they own is the former Camco site. So if the MIP was to expand they would need to redo the process anyways.

Wrong. We aren't talking about the MIP using that land. We are talking about future development of the land by other high tech firms who want to be next to the MIP. The site chosen by Trinity is already zoned as "innovation lands". It has the same zoning as the MIP. So any high tech firms willing to develop the site along the same guidelines as MIP followed, they are free to do so. They do not need to go through any zoning change processes.


^ What do you suggest for the Trinity site that is not already proposed for by MIP?

First priority should be high tech jobs. Retail should be secondary here. The zoning is already well written... retail is allowed, but restricted to main floor and small sq footage and a requirement of research offices above. THe zoning fully allows retail, but puts priority on developing research employment.

So, what trinity can do is simply change their plan to maximize upper level office space. But they are not good at that. They do not know how to make that successful. So we should not let them have that land.

Designed properly a project like this could act as a catalyst to attracting other enterprises to the area.

MIP is going to attract other enterprises. Big box retail is only going to attract more big box retail.

Did Trinity buy with the intent of seeking a zoning change which has been affected by Places To Grow?

The property owner (aberdeen holdings inc) initiated the rezoning application. Trinity then put an offer on the land conditional upon rezoning. Trinity has since taken over the rezoning fight and it appears they will become the primary party fighting the city at the omb. At the pre-hearing, it was clear that aberdeen holdings and trinity hadn't really figured out who was going to be actually doing the fighting. In fact there was some fighting amongst themselves (aberdeen holdings, trinity, and their shared lawyer took about a half hour trying to work out some disagreement they had revolving around their legal representation).

They are taking the city for an expensive ride.

This location would be perfect for a factory outlet type of retail.

No, it would be perfect for a research department of a high tech firm. Just about any other browfield in the city already zoned "k" would be perfect for a factory outlet type of retail.

[raisethehammer]

great points coalmine.
You were a little off on one point though - "big box retail is only going to attract more big box retail."
This isn't entirely true.
It would also attract drive-thru's and car washes.;)

[HAMRetrofit]

I hope the big box proposal get thrown out large. If they are too incompetent to create light/industrial space on the site there is something incredibly wrong with their logic.

I still believe that more research and innovation parks could be created elsewhere in the city by following the same process. This may be reliant on how successful this first park is.

[LikeHamilton]

I have just heard from a very reliable source that TRINITY DEVELOPMENT GROUP has pulled out of and have cancelled this project. The land is now for sale.
:yes:

[SteelTown]

Guess the OMB case is over.

Out of all the retail proposals I like this one the most, the design not the location. Personally I think University Plaza could use this format for possible redevelopment.

[SteelTown]

Yea looks like this proposal is definitely dead....

Power of Sale for $3,250,000
http://www.bbsrealty.com/images/uploads/resources/Chatham_St_Parcel.pdf
http://www.bbsrealty.com/property-details/1132/

[adam]

If Kirkendall people want to shop in big box stores, they can drive 10 minutes down the road to Burlington. Minimum wage jobs don't really help an area anyway.

[coalminecanary]

great news!

[realcity]

good .... now quickly rezone it, so it doesn't happen again

[SteelTown]

It is already properly zoned, M1. Trinity bought this land thinking retail is considered employment, hence the whole OMB case.

[oldcoote]

great news

[SteelTown]

Looks like the City has purchased the land for $4.3 million, thanks to some of SODA's funding.