[PhilippeMtl]

One simple question. I just want to see how this country is disconnected to the world reality.

:)

[The Kid]

This thread is sure to create a firestorm.

My personal opinion is this.

Should Canada be doing something to fight global warming: yes.

Does it really matter if Canada does something and the U.S., China, and India among others do very little or nothing: no.

If this fight it really about saving the human race and the planet as we know it, how can the issue be taken seriously if the worlds biggest contibutors do nothing and continue to increase their output??

Although I'm not 100% behind Canadas current position, Baird is making a valid point, is he not?

[harls]

I think he's got someone else's set of teeth by mistake.

[Rico Rommheim]

He's very well spoken, an outstanding debater in the house and a highly skilled politician. Except for a few notable exceptions, This is exactly what the liberals don't have.

[Mille Sabords]

I think he's got someone else's set of teeth by mistake.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: That's true - it's like all of a sudden he got his dentist to give him the British Royal Family special.

[Mille Sabords]

He's very well spoken, an outstanding debater in the house and a highly skilled politician. Except for a few notable exceptions, This is exactly what the liberals don't have.

He is, but he's no less a rookie. His inexperience shows. He wasn't stupid enough to respond to Terry Kilrea's e-mail (but Terry Kilrea's a bigger idiot than we think), but he still wasn't smooth enough to orchestrate the election of Larry O'Brien without leaving traces. Learning how to perfectly cover your traces, while remaining well spoken and an outstanding debater, takes a few more years.

[Mille Sabords]

Should Canada be doing something to fight global warming: yes.

Does it really matter if Canada does something and the U.S., China, and India among others do very little or nothing: no.

If this fight it really about saving the human race and the planet as we know it, how can the issue be taken seriously if the worlds biggest contibutors do nothing and continue to increase their output??

Although I'm not 100% behind Canadas current position, Baird is making a valid point, is he not?

Here we see buds of political skill in John Baird. He has managed to spin this the best way possible and, technically, he does make a valid argument. Why would Canada do anything if the US, China and India don't.

It's the same logic a 15-year-old would adopt by saying to his parents, "You guys smoke, why shouldn't I?" Valid argument? of course. Right thing to do? Of course not.

[jeremy_haak]

I hate him. That's about it.

[theman23]

He is a scumbag (and apparently a corrupt one at that), like all the fascist Conservatives. My grandpa didn't fight the nazis just so they could come back and take over this country. What is happening to Canada? :yuck:
I blame the Alberta.

[Kevin_foster]

I blame the Alberta.

:tup: Insightful.

Like Albertans decided the outcome of the federal election :rolleyes:

[vid]

Our conservatives aren't fascist!

To operate a fascist regime would require intelligence and respect from the people over whom you're ruling! They have neither!

The Conservatives are polling at the same rate as the Liberals and the Liberals don't even have a leader!

[Mille Sabords]

He is a scumbag (and apparently a corrupt one at that), like all the fascist Conservatives. My grandpa didn't fight the nazis just so they could come back and take over this country. What is happening to Canada? :yuck:
I blame the Alberta.

Actually, you can blame Ottawa. 10 out of 14 ridings in the Ottawa area elected a Conservative MP in 2006. If they had elected a Liberal instead, Paul Martin would still be Prime Minister. John Baird is from an Ottawa riding.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Wow. I never knew that Ottawa was the deciding vote... :haha:

[ScottFromCalgary]

Sorry, is this skyscraperpage.com?

BTW, theman23 is correct. "The Alberta" [sic] is responsible. By the way, I would be surprised if your grandpa fought in WWII for Liberal initiatives like gay marriage, gun control, and strict carbon emission controls. Not that I have a problem with those initiatives, I'm just saying. Last I checked, the Conservatives weren't known for their policies of Aryan racial domination, militarism, or eradiction of Jewish people either.

It's the same logic a 15-year-old would adopt by saying to his parents, "You guys smoke, why shouldn't I?" Valid argument? of course. Right thing to do? Of course not.

I quite like this analogy.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

True, Baird's point is rather valid(which means China, India and USA need to step it up a notch...).

However, he still fails as an Environment Minister.

He said in an article I read a while ago that in order to reduce emissions in Ottawa, he was going to widen Bronson Ave. This would help the environment by reducing the amount of time and number of cars idling on the road... :rolleyes: :haha:

His idea of environment friendly is building more roads and freeways for cars to zoom down so as to "reduce emissions"...

If anything, that just means mroe cars on the road which means we're doing nothing at all... :rolleyes:

[Jimby]

True, Baird's point is rather valid(which means China, India and USA need to step it up a notch...).

However, he still fails as an Environment Minister.

He said in an article I read a while ago that in order to reduce emissions in Ottawa, he was going to widen Bronson Ave. This would help the environment by reducing the amount of time and number of cars idling on the road... :rolleyes: :haha:

Why would you think a federal minister would ever get involved in road widening in Ottawa?
What does this thread have to do with skyscraperpage.com? I believe there are more appropriate political forums than here.

[harls]

Why would you think a federal minister would ever get involved in road widening in Ottawa?


well, he did get involved in Ottawa's LRT project..

[vid]

You'd think a government would govern instead of blame other governments. The conservatives aren't really leaders at all.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Big ol' queeny walker closet case.

[theman23]

Actually, you can blame Ottawa. 10 out of 14 ridings in the Ottawa area elected a Conservative MP in 2006. If they had elected a Liberal instead, Paul Martin would still be Prime Minister. John Baird is from an Ottawa riding.

It seems like everyone but myself is at fault. You people need to smarten up.

[Cambridgite]

Last I checked, the Conservatives weren't known for their policies of Aryan racial domination, militarism, or eradiction of Jewish people either.

Right, that would be the Republicans! :notacrook:



http://instapunk.com/images/bush_hitler02.jpg

[SteelTown]

I think he's a dick wad, there I said it.

[Mille Sabords]

Wow. I never knew that Ottawa was the deciding vote... :haha:

Any part of the country that has 10 Conservative MP's could claim the same, but if you stop to think about it, Ottawa does stand out in a unique kind of way in how Stephen Harper came to power.

Alberta was expected to vote Conservative. Both Calgary and Edmonton voted solid blue, but that's no surprise.

Quebec was in backlash mode against the Liberals for the sponsorship scandal, and the Liberals miserably misread how badly spanked they were going to get by La Belle province. The Liberals never expected that there would be a viable federalist vote other than themselves. As they and the Bloc found out, there is.

Ottawa, on the otehr hand, was more of a surprise Conservative electorate. One would think all the civil servants would be scared of a Conservative government from Western Canada coming to power and shipping a bunch of federal jobs out of Ottawa. One would've expected Ottawa to vote safe and Liberal. That wasn't the case. You might say our city is now large enough that it doesn't get too paranoid about who's in power on the Hill anymore. In any case, I still argue that Ottawa had a big role to play.

Interesting, too, that the three larger cities (Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver) didn't elect a Tory MP. Rather, the three NEXT cities (Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton) were the ones agitating for change, as it were.

I wonder if deep down there may have been a sense of frustration with the Liberals for failing to include these three cities in the "club" of Big Urban Canada. Martin was known as Mr. Dithers, after all. Now, these three cities are as well represented in Cabinet as the three larger ones.

(Turns out voting Tory hasn't helped Ottawa too much so far, though. Baird seems to believe he is safe enough in his Nepean seat to just toe the party line instead of working more for his city. If I were Harper, I'd toss him out of cabinet for this whole O'Brien mess.)

[francely57]

"the U.S., China, and India do nothing" ?


Le mardi 11 décembre 2007
Même la Chine fait la leçon au Canada
François Cardinal
La Presse
Bali, Indonésie

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20071211/CPACTUALITES/712110683/1019/CPACTUALITES





Canada 4th-worst in climate change performance
Updated Fri. Dec. 7 2007 11:36 AM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071206/bali_china_071207/20071207?hub=SciTech

Canada has ranked close to last on an annual index that evaluates and compares the climate protection performances of 56 industrialized and emerging countries.

The 56 countries are together responsible for more than 90 per cent of global energy-related CO2 emissions.

Canada placed 53rd on the index, down two spots from 2006.
The United States and Saudi Arabia ranked the worst on the list, at 55th and 56th.

Meanwhile, China was heralded as a leader on environmental initiatives even though it ranked in the 40th spot.


BURN! :(

[Boreal]

I don't understand the use of extremist words. Fascist? Hardly. It's the same as calling the women in the 1950's, slaves. Legitimately, there are very real concenrns and issues regarding any political administration, or for that matter, the role of a female in the middle of the 20th century. However, to refer to either as fascist or slaves is going completely over the top.

[LordMandeep]

i see him as disturbing and the type of politician I don't like to see..

I rather have a lying idealist, then the cold, aggressive, attack dog man that he is.

Tough guy politicians like Chretien or Putin are okay, but Baird just makes me mad...

Even though I don't really care for Global warming, but still he makes my blood boil...

[boden]

He hasn't been mentioned here in Belleville yet. Is he an astronaut?

[vid]

He hasn't been mentioned here in Belleville yet. Is he an astronaut?

In his own mind, boden. In his own mind. :)

[niwell]

I effing HATE John Baird. I'm ashamed to admit that he was my former MP, not that I voted for him...

[Lyle]

Sorry, is this skyscraperpage.com?

(...) By the way, I would be surprised if your grandpa fought in WWII for Liberal initiatives like gay marriage, gun control, and strict carbon emission controls (...)

Actually, the only sympathetic thing about Baird is that he did fight for and defend gay marriage. Not surprising since he is a (discreet) gay man himself.

[240glt]

What do you think of John Baird?

At least he's not Rona Ambrose.

[Aylmer]

Isn't he the environment minister?
He is more of a stuck-in-the-past economics minister!
EMPEACH! EMPEACH!

[kitchener-lrt]

I HATE John Baird. He's done nothing but embarass Canada on the world-stage, blame everyone else for his inaction, and made such a weak climate change plan, a 4 year old could do better. Air Farce makes him look like the Hulk :p.
I hate his government's "if you don't do it, I wont either" attitude regarding the environment.

[jeremy_haak]

Actually, the only sympathetic thing about Baird is that he did fight for and defend gay marriage. Not surprising since he is a (discreet) gay man himself.

I've heard rumours that he and Pierre Poilievre are a couple. Who'd have thought that the (possible) first gay couple in parliament would have such terrible results. :yuck:

[citizen j]

Hmmmm, so many words to choose from. Four that come to mind immediately:
1. Cretinous
2. Oafish
3. Petty
4. Doctrinaire

[Ottawa]

Global warming - I've noticed this term is evolving to 'climate change' as proponents begin to realize that global warming is a political argument and has nothing to do with reality.

Climate change is far more inclusive than global warming and hence, can refer to just about any weather or other type of catastrophic event. Be it warming or cooling, or volcanoes, or earthquakes, or (fill in the blank) which we are sure to hear about more in the next few years as the trends of the last few years reverse. This is the biggest hoax since the flat earth society was holding regular meetings.

Algore flies his private jet to Bali(along with numerous other government paid vacationers) and says his country is the worst offender. No! Algore is the biggest offender and fake and is getting very, very wealthy off of this. Where are his real financial interests? Always follow the money!

Global warming/climate change is nothing more than a wealth transfer scheme! A lot of people are getting very wealthy off of this and it's not the rice pickers in China or anywhere else. It's the elite class mostly in government, but anybody that has the gonads to hook onto a con scheme like this can reap some financial rewards.

For example, right now the academic class is skimming as much research grant money as they can while the governments are promoting the end of the earth.

Rona Ambrose seemed firmly planted in the real world and was unwilling to make the leap to the Canadian political realm. The realm which is in fact, about as far from reality as one can get. Personally, I would give her far more credit than those who sell their reality and credibility and principles in order to go along with the misled masses to keep their pension eligibility. I found her to be a breath of fresh air in the very stuffy Canadian political realm.

I hadn't even thought of Rona Ambrose recently until someone mentioned her name earlier in this thread. On her future political endeavours, I'm sure the CBC would try to crucify her if Stephen Harper wanted to appoint her to any position of responsibility. The left wing CBC has proven my beliefs correct many times in the past. Their predictability is superceded only by the size of their heads.

So if anybody believes that CO2 is a pollutant, they better stop breathing right now. Come to think of it, that would solve this problem and leave the planet for those of us that prefer to see clearly.

[Aylmer]

He is embarassing...
He (and the harperites) don't seem to want a plan with any sientific consent or any apparent usefullness!

[240glt]

Rona Ambrose seemed firmly planted in the real world and was unwilling to make the leap to the Canadian political realm

:jester: You're kidding, right ?

[wild wild west]

I know many of us have strong opinions when it comes to politics but using rhetoric such as "fascist" to describe what is really a centrist political party in a global sense does nothing to enhance one's argument. It reminds me of the "hidden agenda" crap the Liberals used in the last two elections - rhetoric and name-calling is what people do when they know they don't like the other guy, but also know that they themselves have nothing intelligent to say.

Anyways, my opinion of him is similar to The Kid's.

[psych1]

Global warming - I've noticed this term is evolving to 'climate change' as proponents begin to realize that global warming is a political argument and has nothing to do with reality.

Climate change is far more inclusive than global warming and hence, can refer to just about any weather or other type of catastrophic event. Be it warming or cooling, or volcanoes, or earthquakes, or (fill in the blank) which we are sure to hear about more in the next few years as the trends of the last few years reverse. This is the biggest hoax since the flat earth society was holding regular meetings.

Algore flies his private jet to Bali(along with numerous other government paid vacationers) and says his country is the worst offender. No! Algore is the biggest offender and fake and is getting very, very wealthy off of this. Where are his real financial interests? Always follow the money!

Global warming/climate change is nothing more than a wealth transfer scheme! A lot of people are getting very wealthy off of this and it's not the rice pickers in China or anywhere else. It's the elite class mostly in government, but anybody that has the gonads to hook onto a con scheme like this can reap some financial rewards.

For example, right now the academic class is skimming as much research grant money as they can while the governments are promoting the end of the earth.

Rona Ambrose seemed firmly planted in the real world and was unwilling to make the leap to the Canadian political realm. The realm which is in fact, about as far from reality as one can get. Personally, I would give her far more credit than those who sell their reality and credibility and principles in order to go along with the misled masses to keep their pension eligibility. I found her to be a breath of fresh air in the very stuffy Canadian political realm.

I hadn't even thought of Rona Ambrose recently until someone mentioned her name earlier in this thread. On her future political endeavours, I'm sure the CBC would try to crucify her if Stephen Harper wanted to appoint her to any position of responsibility. The left wing CBC has proven my beliefs correct many times in the past. Their predictability is superceded only by the size of their heads.

So if anybody believes that CO2 is a pollutant, they better stop breathing right now. Come to think of it, that would solve this problem and leave the planet for those of us that prefer to see clearly.

O.k. I will bite, but there are so many preposterous statements above, I
don't have the time to rebut all of them, so I will leave some to others.

To start with, personal attacks on the proponents of a position do not amount to rational scientific argumentation. Al Gore may truly be an idiot, but that does not diminish the evidence he reports. I know that the other side is equally guilty of this, but it doesn't make your assertions any more correct. (I would normally avoid turning this into a right vs left discussion, but since you are taking it that way...)

Secondly, whats with this "class" crap? I thought the "right" didn't believe there were classes? The term "accademic class" simply seems to me a biter jab at people who have demonstrated their intelligence through accademic accomplishment, or would you argue that a Ph.D. is no indication of intelligence? If so, what are your criteria? It also seems weird to me that along with class terminology, the right has adopted the anti-elitism, which used to be the cornerstone of left wing thinking. Even if we accept that there is an "accademic class", at least academic elitism is based on intellectual ability versus economic elitism, which by definition is based on greed (in a free market the richest are the greediest - that is the definition of capitalism - BTW, very few accademics are wealthy, many making considerably less than 100,000 per year - and most making less than they could make in business). I think I would rather have the smartest people in society making poilicy than have the greediest doing it. I'm not placing any value judgment of greed, but it is not a criteria for good decision making ability anywhere but in the market.

Thirdly, the CBC is repeatedly called left wing, but "right wingers" becasue it does not tow their line. Even when they get the opportunity, Conservative politicians refuse to appear on CBC. Have you noticed how many times since "the new government" was elected, that the line, "but the minister declined our offer to appear" has been read on CBC radio? The public media is quite far right of centre and if the CBC is slightly left that is a needed balance. I think you wiould have a very hard time arguing they were much more than slightly left of centre - if you think so, listen to campus radio sometime.

You haven't really provided any argument against global warming or climate change theory, so I won't get into that, but if you would like... <deep breath>

[Aylmer]

What do the conservatives conserve anyway?
Not the environment that's for shure...

[kool maudit]

he seems like a bit of an oaf.

[lubicon]

What do the conservatives conserve anyway?Not the environment that's for shure...

My (taxpayer) money for starters.

[204]

He is a scumbag (and apparently a corrupt one at that), like all the fascist Conservatives. My grandpa didn't fight the nazis just so they could come back and take over this country. What is happening to Canada? :yuck:
I blame the Alberta.

The overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. Twit.

[204]

Right, that would be the Republicans! :notacrook:



http://instapunk.com/images/bush_hitler02.jpg

I guess in your simplified world, where Howard Dean is probably considered a statesman and Michael Moore deserves the Nobel Prize, evil must automatically be associated with "Nazi."

[citizen j]

What do the conservatives conserve anyway?
Not the environment that's for shure...

Power for a few through policies disguised as populism. Yes, that means you can have your extra bit of cash at tax time, Mr. Average Canadian. Just don't ask too many questions about what it costs.

[Aylmer]

The average canadain will save 13.50 a month with the tax cuts.
You could get those PopTarts you were eyeing!

[Aylmer]

But we still spend millions on war!

Face it, they havn't been doing well even by Harpers standards.

[kitchener-lrt]

I know many of us have strong opinions when it comes to politics but using rhetoric such as "fascist" to describe what is really a centrist political party in a global sense does nothing to enhance one's argument.
The Conservatives are viewed as a right wing party on the political spectrum. I don't think that they're in the centre at all. Just look at how they've done a great job of embarassing us globally.
My (taxpayer) money for starters.

I hope you enjoy saving a few cents on everything you buy. When you consider that these tax cuts are so small, I'd rather pay the tax, and feel good because it's going towards things like infrustructure and public transit.

[Cambridgite]

I guess in your simplified world, where Howard Dean is probably considered a statesman and Michael Moore deserves the Nobel Prize, evil must automatically be associated with "Nazi."

Clearly I was joking. :rolleyes:

As for Michael Moore...PLEASE :haha:
Nobel Prize for what? Taking advantage of the fact that Bush bashing is popular? Making money off a poorly backed-up plot and winning the support of ultra liberal-minded 15 year olds?

[citizen j]

The average canadain will save 13.50 a month with the tax cuts.
You could get those PopTarts you were eyeing!

I was actually planning on investing it in collectible products from the Franklin Mint. I'm planning ahead for my retirement.

[SpongeG]

this guy?

http://www.qtn.ca/images/JohnBaird.jpg

[wild wild west]

The Conservatives are viewed as a right wing party on the political spectrum. I don't think that they're in the centre at all. Just look at how they've done a great job of embarassing us globally.


I hope you enjoy saving a few cents on everything you buy. When you consider that these tax cuts are so small, I'd rather pay the tax, and feel good because it's going towards things like infrustructure and public transit.

Globally speaking the Conservatives really aren't that conservative. I think it is obvious that, for example, the US Republican Party is far, far more right-wing than the Tories. They are right wing by Canadian standards, but in a global context they are not.

Re: taxes, the way Canadians ended up with high taxes over the years was through one small tax hike at a time. Obviously they will come down in similar fashion, one little bit at a time. And paying high taxes doesn't make me feel that good if our infrastructure and transit still suck but a lot of money is being passed around in brown envelopes. I'll take the cut instead please.

[kitchener-lrt]

this guy?

http://www.qtn.ca/images/JohnBaird.jpg

Wow, he never looks like that on tv, but rather like this:
http://www.mocpages.com/user_thumbnails/neodragonm@yahoo.com/www.sptimes.com_2003_06_23_photos_xprs-hulk.jpg_SPLASH.jpg

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Baird Aaaaaaaannnnnngggggggrrrrrrryyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!! Graaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

[LordMandeep]

My (taxpayer) money for starters.


clearly you need to think outside the box...

[dansk]

Canada needs a better environment stance. However I don't know how we will get there.

[Aylmer]

I just can't handle the embarrasment...

[lubicon]

I just can't handle the embarrasment...

That will only happen if the Liberals get elected again.

[MolsonExport]

where is Eddy_A when we need him?
Where also is Neilsen?

[Aylmer]

I don't mind Dion but I would have preffered Bob Rae.
Harper(ites) is out of the question.

[chris]

John Baird is great!

[mezzanine]

this guy?

http://www.qtn.ca/images/JohnBaird.jpg

Hey, he does have good teeth...

Didn't he help screw ottawa (city) over its proposed LRT system?

[kitchener-lrt]

That will only happen if the Liberals get elected again.

At least the Liberals didn't embarass us globally on so many issues. The Liberals are restructuring, and I think in the next election, Harper will get the boot.

[kitchener-lrt]

[QUOTE=mezzanine;3238485]Hey, he does have good teeth...
QUOTE]

He does:P .

[lubicon]

At least the Liberals didn't embarass us globally on so many issues. The Liberals are restructuring, and I think in the next election, Harper will get the boot.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. The Liberals have done more harm to this country since the early 70's than anyone can possibly repeat.

[Aylmer]

Harper did a prety good job so far...

[lubicon]

Harper did a prety good job so far...

I think not. But that's my opinion.

[kitchener-lrt]

I guess that's a matter of opinion. The Liberals have done more harm to this country since the early 70's than anyone can possibly repeat.

But remember, the Liberals today are very different from 30 years ago, even 10 years ago. Dion isn't like Chretien or Martin at all. He's a very different politician than those two, being much more understanding, and actually thinking of the long term for Canada, rather then the short term. I can see people voting for Dion because he's very different from the old Liberal leaders, and Harper (in a good way).
I can't see why you guys out in Alberta keep voting for the Conservatives. He basically destroyed the wheat board, has done nothing for the environment, and has signed Canada onto a war mission that the majority of Canadians oppose.

I agree with some Conservative views and some Liberal views, but I can see Dion winning the next election.

[Aylmer]

Too bad about Rae though...
He would have made a great leader.

Met him a couple of times; great guy!

[Ayreonaut]

I've met Harper several times, not a bad guy, but what you see is what you get. Very dry sense of humor, and a Leafs fan. :yuck:

[Aylmer]

He isn't bad,
he just sticks his head in the sand every time the press, eviromentalists, scientists or voters wants to express an opinion.

[Ayreonaut]

That may be true. I don't think he's done anything yet thats been disasterous to his reputation, so I really have no idea how the next election will play out.

[Aylmer]

Has he done anything to improve his reputation?

[Ayreonaut]

I don't think so, but if it isn't improved or damaged, it's where it was when he got elected.

[Aylmer]

A last resort!

[lubicon]

But remember, the Liberals today are very different from 30 years ago, even 10 years ago. Dion isn't like Chretien or Martin at all. He's a very different politician than those two, being much more understanding, and actually thinking of the long term for Canada, rather then the short term. I can see people voting for Dion because he's very different from the old Liberal leaders, and Harper (in a good way).
I can't see why you guys out in Alberta keep voting for the Conservatives. He basically destroyed the wheat board, has done nothing for the environment, and has signed Canada onto a war mission that the majority of Canadians oppose.

I agree with some Conservative views and some Liberal views, but I can see Dion winning the next election.

I don't mean to speak for all Albertan's, but can address some of your comments. This is only from my perspective, but it may reflect the views of many Albertans:

1. the Wheat Board - good riddance. Why should farmers (in the West only) be forced to sell their product to a single purchaser. They should have the ability to sell to whomever they want for whatever price they can get.

2. the environment. We are not a bunch of anti-environment people out here who want to pillage the earth no matter what the cost, but we do realize that Kyoto is a seriously flawed agreement that will decimate our economy if implimented. Yes we need to do our part but we need a plan first. BTW the Liberals signed the agreement in 1997 IIRC and did absolutely nothing between then and when they were voted out of office to address what needed to be done.

3. Afghanistan. Yes I mourn the loss of lives over there but don't forget the Taliban attacked and killed many innocent Canadians and have indicated they WILL do it again. They are also horribly opressive to their own people (especially female) in Afghanistan. I see no problem with Canada participating in a UN SANCTIONED mission that not only will protect Canadians but also defend the human rights of the people of Afghanistan. Canada has made a strong name for itself over the years defending the opressed and this is no different. Just becasue it gets a little messy over there does not mean we can shirk our responsibilities, not only as a NATO country but as a humane country.

The Liberals have badly fractured this county on a regional basis over the years and I'm sorry but I don't see Stephan Dion as being any better in this regard. Their track record is so bad that Albertans just don't trust them anymore.

[kitchener-lrt]

I don't mean to speak for all Albertan's, but can address some of your comments. This is only from my perspective, but it may reflect the views of many Albertans:

1. the Wheat Board - good riddance. Why should farmers (in the West only) be forced to sell their product to a single purchaser. They should have the ability to sell to whomever they want for whatever price they can get.

2. the environment. We are not a bunch of anti-environment people out here who want to pillage the earth no matter what the cost, but we do realize that Kyoto is a seriously flawed agreement that will decimate our economy if implimented. Yes we need to do our part but we need a plan first. BTW the Liberals signed the agreement in 1997 IIRC and did absolutely nothing between then and when they were voted out of office to address what needed to be done.

3. Afghanistan. Yes I mourn the loss of lives over there but don't forget the Taliban attacked and killed many innocent Canadians and have indicated they WILL do it again. They are also horribly opressive to their own people (especially female) in Afghanistan. I see no problem with Canada participating in a UN SANCTIONED mission that not only will protect Canadians but also defend the human rights of the people of Afghanistan. Canada has made a strong name for itself over the years defending the opressed and this is no different. Just becasue it gets a little messy over there does not mean we can shirk our responsibilities, not only as a NATO country but as a humane country.

The Liberals have badly fractured this county on a regional basis over the years and I'm sorry but I don't see Stephan Dion as being any better in this regard. Their track record is so bad that Albertans just don't trust them anymore.

Thanks for giving me a bit of Alberta's point of view:) .
Regarding the wheat board, if it's bad, then why did a lot of farmers out west complain when Harper cut its funding (or whatever he did)?

On the environment, the Dion actually created project green, and it was a plan that would've actually helped lower emissions. It called for a lot of renewable energy, which would've helped us meet our targets. Chretien didn't do very much for the environment, I agree, but the same shouldn't be said for Dion. The least the Conservatives could've done was to help the world reach an agreement, but instead they fought against most of the world. My aunt in Europe even asked "why is Canada acting like this"?

On Afghanistan, I see Canada fighting America's war. We can help the Afghani's by helping them rebuild, and peacekeep. Why should we spend so much on the military, when we can help the people out more with foreign aid. I just see this war as Harper's way of mending fences with the Americans. When you talk about things getting messy, now you're talking about the Bloc:P . One Quebec soldier dies, and they're threatening to bring down the government.

I have to disagree with you about fracturing the country (post Trudeau). It was the Liberals, in particular, Stephane Dion, who fought against the separatists to keep this country united. He spent most of his life fighting for national unity.

[wild wild west]

I agree with most of what Lubicon has said. Particularly regarding the Wheat Board - while there are some farmers who support it, the majority do not support mandatory membership in the Wheat Board according to most opinion polls. Anti-wheat board sentiment is probably strongest in Alberta and weakest in Manitoba, but nearly 2/3 of the Prairie population lives in Alberta.

Re: climate change - There's no doubt that global public opinion is on the side of the environmentalists right now, however I see the government as protecting our interests by ensuring that any binding plan includes the World's largest emitters. I feel better having a government that will fight for the best climate-change plan to protect Canadian interests, even if it costs them a lot of votes, than I would with a government that would sign on to agreements for the sake of optics and then sit back and do nothing. Whether or not you agree with the Conservative approach, one thing you cannot deny is that they are fighting for what they perceive is best for the country, even though they know it is an extremely unpopular stance to take politically, rather than doing what they know will get them the most votes. This is, in my opinion, a characteristic of responsible government.

Re: Afghanistan - the country is in a state of civil war. Again, it would probably be easier for them to pull out than to stay. This is not a war, it is establishing a presence to prevent the country from slipping into total anarchy.

The Tories could have easily followed the Liberal example of governing by opinion polls and pull out of Afghanistan and sign on to the climate change agreements without any fuss whatsoever, and they would no doubt be in majority government territory. The fact that they instead stick to their principles in a minority government situation when they are only a few percent ahead of the opposition in the opinion polls, to me is what sets this government apart from the previous one, in a good way.

[kitchener-lrt]

.

Re: climate change - There's no doubt that global public opinion is on the side of the environmentalists right now, however I see the government as protecting our interests by ensuring that any binding plan includes the World's largest emitters. I feel better having a government that will fight for the best climate-change plan to protect Canadian interests, even if it costs them a lot of votes, than I would with a government that would sign on to agreements for the sake of optics and then sit back and do nothing. Whether or not you agree with the Conservative approach, one thing you cannot deny is that they are fighting for what they perceive is best for the country, even though they know it is an extremely unpopular stance to take politically, rather than doing what they know will get them the most votes. This is, in my opinion, a characteristic of responsible government.


The Tories could have easily followed the Liberal example of governing by opinion polls and pull out of Afghanistan and sign on to the climate change agreements without any fuss whatsoever, and they would no doubt be in majority government territory. The fact that they instead stick to their principles in a minority government situation when they are only a few percent ahead of the opposition in the opinion polls, to me is what sets this government apart from the previous one, in a good way.

Regarding climate change, the Conservatives aren't fighting for Canadian interests, they're fighting for the oil sands interests. Sure, if Canada would've signed any tough agreement, it would've meant damage to Alberta's economy. The majority of Canadians aren't being represented (environmentally) by the Conservatives because the majority of Candians didn't vote Conservative. I think when we look at how much Canada has to lose environmentally (the arctic), our views aren't being represented.

Re: on opinion polls, the Liberals didn't pull out of Afghanistan, nor do they want to until '09 (like the NDP). The Liberals didn't sign onto Kyoto because it was the right thing to do politically, but because it was the right thing to do. I respect them for sticking to their values, but not when their attitude involves doing things that the majority of Canadians oppose.

Just remember, the current Liberal Party is different from the Martin and Chretien governments, in a good way. Check out some of their policies.

[wild wild west]

And here's where we differ, kitchener-lrt. I see the Liberals signing onto Kyoto while not actually doing much to meet those targets as an opportunistic way to get votes without actually doing anything, and I see the Conservatives being more reluctant to do so even against public opinion as doing what they perceive to be in the best interests of the country even though it will hurt the party. I think most of us agree that the World has to do something on the environment, but my view is that unless the biggest emitters sign on there is no point in Canada being the World's climate change sacrificial lamb.

Anyways, I'm probably outta here til '08...cheers, and happy holidays to all!

[kitchener-lrt]

Anyways, I'm probably outta here til '08...cheers, and happy holidays to all!

Cheers, and enjoy the nice holiday. Let's try and avoid political talks during the holiday, as it tends to divide people:cool: .

[The Jabroni]

I am so sorry for this, and for being out of the loop, but...

...who is John Baird, and what made him being so hated?

I don't want to jump into the bandwagon for "Hate John Baird just because we can" type of thing yet. Can someone bring me up to speed please?

Again, I am so sorry about this. :(

[Ayreonaut]

Cheers, and enjoy the nice holiday. Let's try and avoid political talks during the holiday, as it tends to divide people:cool: .
No kidding, just tonight my grandma went off about how lazy maritimers are, and that they do seasonal work and then go on unemployment for the rest of the year. She didn't seem to notice the Nova Scotia flag tatoo on the arm of the guy she was arguing with. I was sitting between them, it was downright scary. I managed to escape to the den to watch the Flames game. Grandma can be a little closed minded sometimes. :rolleyes: The original discussion was equilization payments, she seems to have forgotten how recently Alberta was a "have not" province.

[noodlenoodle]

The economic downturn in Alberta was in correlation to the NEP though (I am 99% sure Alberta's not been a recipient of transfer payments as a "have not" province ever)

I can definitely understand Granny's viewpoint if she was an Albertan through the last boom/bust cycle. Let's not forget the popular Albertan sentiment of the day: "Let those Eastern bastards freeze in the dark!"

And as someone who works in the utility industry, we do have an awful lot of seasonal moves to/from the east coast into Alberta. We even factor the spring NL migration into our customer service staffing levels. Now this is not to say that Granny's maybe using a broader brush than is needed, but she does have valid points.

[Ottawa]

O.k. I will bite, but there are so many preposterous statements above, I
don't have the time to rebut all of them, so I will leave some to others.

To start with, personal attacks on the proponents of a position do not amount to rational scientific argumentation. Al Gore may truly be an idiot, but that does not diminish the evidence he reports. I know that the other side is equally guilty of this, but it doesn't make your assertions any more correct. (I would normally avoid turning this into a right vs left discussion, but since you are taking it that way...)

Secondly, whats with this "class" crap? I thought the "right" didn't believe there were classes? The term "accademic class" simply seems to me a biter jab at people who have demonstrated their intelligence through accademic accomplishment, or would you argue that a Ph.D. is no indication of intelligence? If so, what are your criteria? It also seems weird to me that along with class terminology, the right has adopted the anti-elitism, which used to be the cornerstone of left wing thinking. Even if we accept that there is an "accademic class", at least academic elitism is based on intellectual ability versus economic elitism, which by definition is based on greed (in a free market the richest are the greediest - that is the definition of capitalism - BTW, very few accademics are wealthy, many making considerably less than 100,000 per year - and most making less than they could make in business). I think I would rather have the smartest people in society making poilicy than have the greediest doing it. I'm not placing any value judgment of greed, but it is not a criteria for good decision making ability anywhere but in the market.

Thirdly, the CBC is repeatedly called left wing, but "right wingers" becasue it does not tow their line. Even when they get the opportunity, Conservative politicians refuse to appear on CBC. Have you noticed how many times since "the new government" was elected, that the line, "but the minister declined our offer to appear" has been read on CBC radio? The public media is quite far right of centre and if the CBC is slightly left that is a needed balance. I think you wiould have a very hard time arguing they were much more than slightly left of centre - if you think so, listen to campus radio sometime.

You haven't really provided any argument against global warming or climate change theory, so I won't get into that, but if you would like... <deep breath>

This thread is one big opportunity to take your own best personal shot at John Baird. Since he is a politician and this was initiated while he was in Bali, I will assume this is a political thread aimed at his position on 'climate change' and not a scientific one. I could state several facts refuting global warming or climate change or whatever you want to call it today. But that is another thread.

As for the personal attack comment, please review this thread and count the number of derogatory names that are used to refer to Mr. Baird. My reference to Algore is pretty tame in comparison.

There are classes of people in every society. Maybe you would prefer I call it academia? That's the same thing. I only referred to it in one example stating that certain parts of academia are taking advantage of the positive political viewpoint toward global warming to get research grants.

A Ph.D is definitely a sign of intelligence and achievement, but it is not a brand of infallibility. Ph.D's are granted in a fairly narrow area of expertise. Therefore, be sure to get your facts from a recognized expert in the proper field of study.

In case you hadn't figured it out yet, I believe strongly that all the hype about global warming is misdirected. I strongly believe that most of the scientists signing onto the climate change fad are motivated by either politics, money, or the fear of being ostracized by not following the 'party line'.

You state these scientists may make less than $100Kyr. That doesn't mean that they are immune to accepting a viewpoint for reasons other than scientific proof. I know and respect those who do stick to their views based purely on scientific proof but there are too many who don't lately.

I have no bitterness towards properly motivated scientific research.

And finally, to think the vast majority of the media in this country is anywhere short of left wing is pretty radical thinking. There is very little right wing media in this country. I only refer to the CBC because they are the most radical of the bunch. I could give the CBC some credit if they didn't follow the left wing side so faithfully. I despise having my hard earned tax dollars going toward a media that totally misrepresents my viewpoint and many others who remain quiet on this subject. If the CBC was self supporting I wouldn't feel so negative towards them, but I would still want to see my viewpoint represented.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

[vid]

I am so sorry for this, and for being out of the loop, but...

...who is John Baird, and what made him being so hated?

I don't want to jump into the bandwagon for "Hate John Baird just because we can" type of thing yet. Can someone bring me up to speed please?

Again, I am so sorry about this. :(

You know how your Kindergarten teacher was a crack head pedophile?

Well, John Baird is in a similar boat. :) (As in, he shouldn't have that responsibility)

[1ajs]

who the hell is john baird?

[vid]

who the hell is john baird?

Minister of Raping the Environment

"It's the economy, stupid!"

[Ottawa]

Minister of Raping the Environment

"It's the economy, stupid!"

You do make an accusation without substantiation. Just exactly what do you mean by "Raping the Environment"?

I find it interesting that living in Thunder Bay surrounded by thousands of square miles of "never been touched by human hands" forest that you feel "the Environment" is in such dire distress.

I don't see it myself. Can you explain exactly what John Baird is doing so much worse than the former Liberal government with Stephane Dion as Minister of Raping the Environment? They did absolutely zippo, nothing, nada, zilch, and got a pass on it.

Any thinking person has to start evaluating why they believe this crap.

[CANAUS]

What logic!

Who cares what the Liberals did before, we can't change the past, so blowing air about the former Liberal government achieves nothing, nada, zilch etc. This doesn't excuse the current government for inaction. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Climate change is happenning, it has been proven and ALL scientists are are in agreement on this FACT.

Canada is doing is next to nothing federally on climate change. We lack real leadership on this issue. What makes things worse is that Mr. Baird goes around the world trumpeting his plan, telling the world and Canadians that we are somehow a leader on the climate change issue that can dictate terms to other nations. This is far from the truth; Europe, Australia, all the world is ahead of us on this issue. They have far more ambituous plans, plans which are necessary if we want to save the planet. We pollute by far more than every nation per capita, with the exception of the US. This makes him a hypocrite. I hope Canadians see through his charade.

[vid]

You do make an accusation without substantiation. Just exactly what do you mean by "Raping the Environment"?

I find it interesting that living in Thunder Bay surrounded by thousands of square miles of "never been touched by human hands" forest that you feel "the Environment" is in such dire distress.

On the contrary, it's mismanagement of those resources that has led to hardship in the forestry sector. (There are other factors too but this is a main one relating to the environment.)

Say hello to "thousands of square miles of never been touched by human hands forest". (Also known as Virgin Forest, if you knew about those kinds of things. ;))

First off, a map to get you acquainted with our "pristine" region. This area is about as big as Lake Ontario:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6378/clearcutqc9.png

Clearcutting, in case you don't know, is the process of cutting down all trees in an area (usually a few square kilometres), harvesting what wood is useful, and leaving the rest to rot. Unfortunately for nature, trees have trouble regrowing in these conditions. It completely decimates the local eco-system, destroys habitat, but most importantly (to humans) these trees won't grow back for hundreds of years. All the land that has been clearcut will not be able to be harvested again in our lifetime. That thousands of square miles doesn't look so big now, does it?

Here is your Virgin Forest, "Ottawa"!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2365/1826205554_63090564d8.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelchrisman/1826205554/)
mechrisman

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/863504_9abefb4053.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/magenta/863504/)
Agent Magenta

This is somewhere between Dryden and Thunder Bay. There are lots of places like this along the highway, though they usually try to keep a 5m to 15m buffer zone between the highway and clearcuts so that people don't see. If people don't see it, they won't be alarmed. ;)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/85/261622996_b22bb59765.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottishsamurai_545/261622996/)
Scottishsamurai 545

See that area on the left, where there are little to no trees growing? That's clearcutting! This is near Timmins.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/140793352_e674703c2c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eglantine/140793352/)
Églantine

More clearcuts south of Timmins. The ones around Thunder Bay look the same. Being from down east I could probably convince you that this was anywhere in Northern Ontario, except the tundra along Hudson Bay. (There is Tundra along Hudson Bay. It is the only desert in Ontario.)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/2101939671_cde5d3b14d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigdaddyhame/2101939671/)
bigdaddyhame

This is somewhere above Ontario or Quebec. The photographer isn't sure. If you fly low over the lower half of Northern Ontario, this is pretty much all you see except for the patches of untouched forest -- the provincial parks.

This is the part where you tell me that none of this impacts the environment and that allowing it to continue will benefit the country's economy!!!

By the way, Pristine Thunder Bay has two of the five worst polluting industrial facilities in Ontario -- Thunder Bay Generating Station and BoWater Forest Products Ltd.

I don't see it myself. Can you explain exactly what John Baird is doing so much worse than the former Liberal government with Stephane Dion as Minister of Raping the Environment?

What is he doing wrong? He is doing the exact same thing. Inaction and false goals. Canada's economy is strong and its people are very capable of adaptation (After all, we go from -30°C to +30°C in a six month period). To say the entire country will fall apart if we create laws to take into consideration the welfare of the environment is pure ignorance, and any thinking person has to start evaluating why they believe that crap.

Not that John Baird is to blame for deforestation, strip mining, or other environmentally destructive practices, of course. But he does have the power to stop them or make them less destructive -- making selective harvesting and diverse reforestation mandatory (as it stands, reforestation is the equivalent of a sausage fest. One species of trees isn't a forest! It's an overblown grove.) would be one of many possible solutions. Tougher regulations for auto manufacturers (It doesn't take 25 years to design a clean engine! If you can put five TV/DVD players into a sedan, you should be able to pull off 35+ MPG!!!) more emphasis on train travel and utilization of mass transit, financial support for people to make their homes more energy efficient (ie. installing solar panels on roofs, making use of raincatchers, making a transition to more energy efficient lighting, appliances, and electronics, etc), utilizing new fuels for vehicles to break a dependence on oil and I do not mean ethanol, creating building standards so that houses are built for the climate of Canada and not the climate of Wessex or Florida, making greater use of train and ship travel on the great lakes instead of truck travel for long distance trips across the country, upgrading train infrastructure so that we could actually use it, creating carbon emissions caps and carbon taxes -- it isn't that industry can't clean up its act -- industry doesn't want to clean up its act.

I could go on. And to think, I actually supported Harper in the election! Boy, do I feel like an idiot now! I thought I was gonna get change, and here we are, the beginning of year 15 of Liberal rule! :rolleyes:

[Aylmer]

Harper...
kiss and make up with kyoto.

[vid]

Kyoto is crap. Especially at this point, there is no way we would reach it's targets. I would say a reasonable compromise would be to try to achieve Kyoto's goals by about 2020 or so, with modifications of the original document to better suits our needs. It should also encompass more than just emissions, it should look at the entire environment, as a whole.

It should be a document to reform the way mankind interacts with his environment.

[1ajs]

manitoba will if the smelter in flinn flon closes..... this thing accounts for 40% of our emissions....

[Aylmer]

Kyoto is crap. Especially at this point, there is no way we would reach it's targets. I would say a reasonable compromise would be to try to achieve Kyoto's goals by about 2020 or so, with modifications of the original document to better suits our needs. It should also encompass more than just emissions, it should look at the entire environment, as a whole.

It should be a document to reform the way mankind interacts with his environment.

At least it's doing a little...

[Boris2k7]

Thing is, the US is reducing emissions significantly at state and municipal levels, whereas Canada must be the laziest and cheapest nation in the G8. Our emissions have actually risen.

[1ajs]

emosions going down in the us? aww not from what i have seen when i came up threw the midwest it was constant polution from all the coal plants....

[Boris2k7]

Well, that's a bit misleading on my part. While the total emissions are rising, they are dropping both relative the US population, GDP and to the total global emissions.

Department of Energy - Emissions of Greenhouse Gases in the United States 2005 (ftp://ftp.eia.doe.gov/pub/oiaf/1605/cdrom/pdf/ggrpt/057305.pdf)

The numbers after 2003 are projections...

World Energy-Related Carbon Dioxide Emissions by Region, 1990-2030
(Million Metric Tons Carbon Dioxide)

Country........1990...........2003...........2030...........%Change 2003-2030
United States..4,985..........5,800..........8,115..........1.3
Canada.........474............596............873............1.4
Japan..........1,011..........1,206..........1,219..........0.0
China..........2,241..........3,541..........10,716.........4.2
World..........21,230.........25,033.........43,676.........2.1

[boden]

Thing is, the US is reducing emissions significantly at state and municipal levels, whereas Canada must be the laziest and cheapest nation in the G8. Our emissions have actually risen.

Absolutely 100% accurate.

If I hear the CBC talk about air pollution coming up from the US one more time
I am going to gag. Lets not muddy the waters. Canada has just about the worst environmental record in the world. Despite our extenuating circumstances with size and climate, we can do much, much better.
We cannot, for example, compare our air pollution to that in the US. The reason? Some bright spark decided that we needed our own measuring system. It is a disgrace, and goes toward muddying the waters even further.