[vanman]

Check this out. A photo I found of the Alaskan viaduct in Seattle superimposed
on English Bay Beach.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/vannmann/Van%20Highways/148348492_6ce1a1cbb0_o.jpg
(flickr)

[npinguy]

It really is something that we take for granted in Vancouver and don't realize how lucky we are. We are probably the only major city in North America without a highway in it's core.

Because of this, pretty much every neighborhood is walkable, and we can say things like "I walked from UBC to Downtown" without sounding like we just committed an act of bravery.


Compare and contrast to this story from when I went to Vegas last spring.

Me and my girlfriend were staying at the Luxor (the egyptian pyramid). I spotted an In N' Out Burger from the window of the hotle room. I've heard wonderous things about that place and wanted to take a walk to get some burgers. I talk my gf into it, we leave the hotel room, and walk towards the massive sign. We realize quickly there's a highway between us and the restaurant. We keep walking for a bit hoping to find an overpass, and do find a small cloverleaf, but no pedesterian walkway. I walk up to a parking attendant and say

Me: "Hey man do you know if there's a way to walk to the In N' Out burger from here?
Him: "Yeah. See that little hill (pointing to the hill on which the highway is on). Climb up the hill, hop over the railing, and go across.
Me: (looking back at my gf) "I don't think she's going to go for that."
Him: "No no I see people doing it all the time."



There was simply no way to walk to that joint from the strip. Period. Without a 20 minute detour.

[Nutterbug]

The whole area would probably be a whole lot uglier than that.

Instead of those nice apartment/condo buildings, I figure the development around the viaduct would be more along the lines of dirty and dilapitated factories, warehouses and other old and unkempt buildings. Heck, we might even have ourselves another DTES behind the viaduct there.

[hollywoodnorth]

Wow!

[vanman]

The whole area would probably be a whole lot uglier than that.

Instead of those nice apartment/condo buildings, I figure the development around the viaduct would be more along the lines of dirty and dilapitated factories, warehouses and other old and unkempt buildings. Heck, we might even have ourselves another DTES behind the viaduct there.

I agree. All that covered area underneath the viaduct would be prime vagrant habitat.

[SFUVancouver]

vagrant habitat.

That is both the funniest and most despressing term I've come across in a very long time.

[vid]

Compared to Toronto's "poverty donut"?

I have to agree though you've gotten the better deal terms of urban highways, when looked at the situation with an urbanist's bias.

[vanhattan]

Great post and very true that Vancouver is fortunate not to have a monstrosity highway in such a prime location. The same type of elevated highway was constructed in San Francisco in the 1950s as the Embarcadero Freeway and the only thing that saved the waterfront was an earthquake that brought portions of the elevated down. The rest of the elevated highway was torn down after much debate following the earthquake. Now, the SF waterfront area is once again accessible to the rest of the downtown areas. It is SO MUCH NICER than it was before.
Before; http://www.roughlydrafted.com/tiexp/Phs/Bayside.jpg
http://http://www.roughlydrafted.com/tiexp/Phs/Fry_Bldn.jpg
after;
http://http://www.roughlydrafted.com/tiexp/Phs/DSCN0787.jpg
http://http://www.roughlydrafted.com/tiexp/Phs/DSCN0788.jpg

[vanhattan]

after; :previous:

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/tiexp/Phs/DSCN0787.jpg

[Stingray2004]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/vannmann/Van%20Highways/148348492_6ce1a1cbb0_o.jpg
(flickr)


Hey... there was an *actual* conceptual plan for an "ocean parkway" (freeway) just off English Bay in that exact same location, in 1960, cutting a swath through Stanely Park towards a newly twinned Lions Gate bridge, believe it or not.

Here it is:

http://www.derekhayes.ca/img/wrcms/derekhayes.ca/map_plansparkway.jpg

[SpongeG]

yup they say if it had gone through the beaches and parks would not have been there - there were renderings of what it was to be and it looked awful

[cornholio]

Well since i don't live downtown then that would of been wonderful, make my trip to Whistler for skiing, Pemberton for hunting and norther Harisson lake for good old camping that much faster and convenient.
just kidding...kind of.

By the way that plan seems to show tunnels through Stanley park and a bridge or tunnel through English bay sparing most of the beaches.

[1ajs]

holy crap!
winnipeg does not even have a freeway downtown :D

[paradigm4]

where did you originally find this?

[David]

the ocean parkway plan called for a causeway through English Bay, turning that part of the bay into a lagoon.
I believe the plan is from the 1930s Harland Bartholemew report. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[SpongeG]

i forget where i saw the pics - maybe in that vancouver book?

but it seemed to show that the beaches and park land there would not be anything like we have and basically off limits to residents as it would be very unwelcoming, as it had to run along the ground to go under burrard street bridge

[vanman]

where did you originally find this?

I found it on flickr by chance.

[vanman]

i forget where i saw the pics - maybe in that vancouver book?

but it seemed to show that the beaches and park land there would not be anything like we have and basically off limits to residents as it would be very unwelcoming, as it had to run along the ground to go under burrard street bridge

I remember seeing an old rendering of coal harbour with a 10 lane plus highway running along the waterfront. At the same time there was a plan for the 'urban renewal' of gastown with what would have been tall hideous 70s concrete towers.

[SFUVancouver]

^ Project 200

[clooless]

holy crap!
winnipeg does not even have a freeway downtown :D

In Winnipeg's case, it's nothing to be especially proud of.

Getting back to Vancouver, I am off the opinion that now is the time to get rid off the Georgia and Dunsmuir Street viaducts. I once came across a book in the Vancouver Public Library that had detailed plans for the freeway system Vancouver was expected to build in the 60s, before public opinion derailed those plans. It was a fascinating read with fold out maps and all sorts of information I had never come across before.

[Nutterbug]

In Winnipeg's case, it's nothing to be especially proud of.
One less eyesore and polluter makes it that much less of a hole, no?

Getting back to Vancouver, I am off the opinion that now is the time to get rid off the Georgia and Dunsmuir Street viaducts. I once came across a book in the Vancouver Public Library that had detailed plans for the freeway system Vancouver was expected to build in the 60s, before public opinion derailed those plans. It was a fascinating read with fold out maps and all sorts of information I had never come across before.
So what other suggestion do you have for bridging the elevation difference between the False Creek Flats and the Downtown Peninsula?

[clooless]

One less eyesore and polluter makes it that much less of a hole, no?

Just trading one eyesore for another. Winnipeg could have one of the most engaging and interesting downtowns of any Canadian city, such is the wealth of character buildings. I don't know what exactly is to blame for the decay; poverty, local government mismanagement, lack of private interest or a combination of these factors, but it is there.

So what other suggestion do you have for bridging the elevation difference between the False Creek Flats and the Downtown Peninsula?

Interesting that you think an elevated freeway is an eyesore but the Georgia Viaduct is OK. The original viaduct was built to cross over a rail yard and wasn't nearly as long as the current viaduct, built in 1971. I only mention it because the area around Main and Prior Streets is in a terrible state of decay, and I think removing the viaducts as part of a beautification and redevelopment project would improve the area significantly.

[Nutterbug]

Interesting that you think an elevated freeway is an eyesore but the Georgia Viaduct is OK. The original viaduct was built to cross over a rail yard and wasn't nearly as long as the current viaduct, built in 1971. I only mention it because the area around Main and Prior Streets is in a terrible state of decay, and I think removing the viaducts as part of a beautification and redevelopment project would improve the area significantly.

All I've seen surrounding the viaducts are a park, a couple of stadiums, a shopping center with a T&T and a Costco, and some open undeveloped land next to False Creek.

Maybe the eastern approach to the viaducts should be rezoned for commercial and highrise residential buildings, much like the rest of that area.

[vanman]

That is both the funniest and most despressing term I've come across in a very long time.

I couldn't think of a better term:shrug:

[officedweller]

Interesting that you think an elevated freeway is an eyesore but the Georgia Viaduct is OK. The original viaduct was built to cross over a rail yard and wasn't nearly as long as the current viaduct, built in 1971. I only mention it because the area around Main and Prior Streets is in a terrible state of decay, and I think removing the viaducts as part of a beautification and redevelopment project would improve the area significantly.

The viaducts are actually a very elegant design for a viaduct. It does not use any bents (post and lintel supports - see TO's Gardiner) and the Main Street overpass has a thin road bed and incredibly wide sightlines under it. I think the decay in the area has more to do with its proximity to the Downtown Eastside and the open drug market than to the viaducts.

Also, you'd basically have to examine whether there has been market incentive to develop the lands below the viaducts since they were used for Expo 86 and whether it is physically viable to do so. Andy Livingstone Park is a repository for the contaminated soils in the area (like David Lam Park is a repository for contaminated soils on the western Concord Lands). Apparently that area was one of the most heavily contaminated on the Concord Lands. I think the soil under the expansion of Creekside Park is similarly contaminated and will be left in place and sealed up (i.e. there's that undergound barrier and pumping station to collect and pump contaminated ground water into the sewer system).

And of course, there's the fact that Concord has left the NE False Creek lands as its last phase (and the expansion of Creekside Park will be done by Concord when it achieves a specified milestone for the area) - so the stagnation is very much a situation imposed on the site by its owners.

[Wooster]

It really is something that we take for granted in Vancouver and don't realize how lucky we are. We are probably the only major city in North America without a highway in it's core.


Very lucky. Calgary escaped a similar fate in its downtown, which is free of freeways. There was an 8 lane highway, with a realigned CPR mainline planned for the banks of the bow river called the "Downtown Penetrator" (of all the names! It was luckily fought off by some people with vision. Now the city has a fantastic riverfront. Similarly, there was an elevated freeway proposed between 11th and 12th avenues called the south downtown bypass. Also nixed. The compromise was converting those two avenues into one way (which the community is fighting to get switched back).

Vancouver's livability in the core is certainly helped by the lack of such infrastructure. :tup:

[Mininari]

Very lucky. Calgary escaped a similar fate in its downtown, which is free of freeways. There was an 8 lane highway, with a realigned CPR mainline planned for the banks of the bow river called the "Downtown Penetrator" (of all the names! It was luckily fought off by some people with vision. Now the city has a fantastic riverfront. Similarly, there was an elevated freeway proposed between 11th and 12th avenues called the south downtown bypass. Also nixed. The compromise was converting those two avenues into one way (which the community is fighting to get switched back).

Vancouver's livability in the core is certainly helped by the lack of such infrastructure. :tup:
Calgary still does need a freeway bypass so that trucks travelling west from ... oh say, Winnipeg through to Vancouver doesn't have to negotiate 16th avenue.
It certainly doesn't need to run through the middle of town though... isn't there a roadway planned, or under construction through the South of town? Or am I confusing that with Edmonton? Sorry... not watching the Alberta construction too much.

Just trading one eyesore for another. Winnipeg could have one of the most engaging and interesting downtowns of any Canadian city, such is the wealth of character buildings. I don't know what exactly is to blame for the decay; poverty, local government mismanagement, lack of private interest or a combination of these factors, but it is there.

Once again, I'm off topic, but I totally agree with you. I moved to Winnipeg 1 1/2 years ago for school, and I have to say I was incredibly disappointed with just how devoid of life Winnipeg's Exchange district is. I mean, they seem to be trying here, there are businesses and a few restaurants down there, but there just isn't the presence of many steady downtown residents to really make it a lively place. You basically have to drive in, and park to experience it. I am fortunate to live within about 45-minutes walk, but even so, I've only walked over there a few times.

The city wants private money to come into play, but the private players seem to write off building after building, stating that its not economically feasible to fix these buildings up. And in the end, Winnipeg gets another surface parking lot. A certain city leader seems to think that adding parking is the way to revitalize downtown here...

But I digress... majorly.

I, for one, am very happy that Vancouver did NOT build the "Alaskan Viaduct" structure along English Bay.
(I wonder if they had, it would have wrecked the view so much the city would have never imposed view cones and height restrictions... :hmmm:

[Nutterbug]

Calgary still does need a freeway bypass so that trucks travelling west from ... oh say, Winnipeg through to Vancouver doesn't have to negotiate 16th avenue.
It certainly doesn't need to run through the middle of town though... isn't there a roadway planned, or under construction through the South of town? Or am I confusing that with Edmonton? Sorry... not watching the Alberta construction too much.

They should just make a trenched freeway where 16th Avenue is, and build overpasses crossing over it at the major cross streets, and maybe a parallel side street to serve local traffic. Something like what they did with the Upper Levels Highway in the City of North Vancouver between Lonsdale Ave. and Westview Drive, where there used to be intersections.