[mr.x]

7,000 ink petition for 24/7 SkyTrain service

Cheryl Chan, The Province
Published: Wednesday, January 09, 2008

More than 7,000 people have signed an online petition clamouring for round-the-clock SkyTrain service.

Scott Podwinski, who started the petition on the social networking site Facebook less than two weeks ago, said he's blown away by the demand.

"Almost 7,300 people are saying they want the service and would ride it," said the 26-year-old Surrey man. "There's more demand than you think."

Podwinski started the campaign after being stranded downtown after a New Year's Eve party, despite assurances from TransLink customer service that SkyTrain service will be running "later than normal."

He said he and his friends boarded the SkyTrain at Granville Station at about 2 a.m. but were kicked off at the next stop because service was shutting down.

They were told to walk to Burrard Station to catch a bus, he said, but "two hours later, still no bus. We were frozen by that time."

"It would cost very little to keep the SkyTrain running 24 hours," said Podwinski, adding that the extra rail runs would curb drinking and driving and offer night owls an alternative to pricey cab rides home.

Both the SkyTrain's Expo and Millennium lines shut down for about four hours daily, from about 1:30 to 5:30 a.m.

TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said 24/7 service would be desirable but not "feasible technically."

"We have a situation where a certain number of down-time hours is necessary," he said, adding SkyTrain already stays open later than the London Underground.

"It's not an issue of operating costs," said Hardie. "An additional few hours wouldn't make the difference, but with the need to do track maintenance . . . they need that window every early morning."

Hardie said TransLink might consider looking at short-term 24-hour service on specific nights during the 2010 Olympics should downtown stay open late.

Podwinski hopes to gather 100,000 signatures -- online and in-person -- which he plans to submit to TransLink at the end of the year.

A reaction to Podwinski's petition has already erupted on Facebook. The Petition Against the Petition to Keep the SkyTrain Open 24 Hours has 12 members as of yesterday.

chchan@png.canwest.com




i should mention that SkyTrain opens later and opens earlier than the Hong Kong MTR.

[twoNeurons]

I wonder... what about running it on one rail only. Run two 8-car trains. In the middle, one waits in the siding while the other car passes... or they pass in a station. The side would alternate each night so they could alternate track maintenance.

[officedweller]

i should mention that SkyTrain opens later and opens earlier than the Hong Kong MTR.

Do you mean "closes" later and opens earlier?

Anyways, I don't think running it 24/7 is financially feasible.

That said, opening later or all night on Fridays and Saturdays would probably be a good idea. Copenhagen does that - and charges twice the fare during those late hours.

[SpongeG]

they could do that here - have it run say every 30 minutes and charge the highest fare

but isn't the problem that they park the trains along the track at night? there is no yard for them to all go home to at night?

[deasine]

HAHA there is also a petition on facebook... I think it's called "Hey TransLink, keep the trains moving."

@SpongeG
I didn't know the park the trains on tracks at night. You learn a new thing everyday =) Well I guess if you have a low frequency of trains, then you can run like you have track-maintenance. So at some stations, one platform has both directions running. This can be easily done in the downtown stations, close off a tunnel for parked trains and keep the other tunnel running.

[officedweller]

Yeah, just using one track on certain segments is feasible with low frequency.

[mr.x]

Do you mean "closes" later and opens earlier?

Anyways, I don't think running it 24/7 is financially feasible.

That said, opening later or all night on Fridays and Saturdays would probably be a good idea. Copenhagen does that - and charges twice the fare during those late hours.

yea, that's what i meant.

i don't think 24/7 is a good idea either....the hours could be extended to open earlier and close later, but it needs maintenance to prevent all those damned breakdowns!

i think the Copenhagen system works well.

[twoNeurons]

and once you introduce 24/7 service... it's really difficult to take it back.

[SpongeG]

HAHA there is also a petition on facebook... I think it's called "Hey TransLink, keep the trains moving."

@SpongeG
I didn't know the park the trains on tracks at night. You learn a new thing everyday =) Well I guess if you have a low frequency of trains, then you can run like you have track-maintenance. So at some stations, one platform has both directions running. This can be easily done in the downtown stations, close off a tunnel for parked trains and keep the other tunnel running.

when i drove home at 2 or 3am along lougheed there are a number of the trains parked lights on inside and out

yah if they kept one track open it would be doable

i don't think there are hundreds of people so infrequent would be good (judging by the late night busses i have taken) and regular users would get used to say a 30 min frequency - shift workers and such

[mr.x]

i'd like to make the West Coast Express service improvements a higher priority....get more funding for it, negotiate with CP for better service with assistance by the feds, get it double-tracked for bidirectional service, get more trains and coaches, then run it every 10-15 minutes at peak hours and 30-60 minutes at non-peak.

[LeftCoaster]

I think running a 30 minute, one track system sounds completly feasable, even if it isnt 24 hr and just a few extra hours. And like Hardie said, its not an issue of costs, but of maintenance... so if lines were alternated in terms of what needed to be worked on I dont really see a problem.

[deasine]

i'd like to make the West Coast Express service improvements a higher priority....get more funding for it, negotiate with CP for better service with assistance by the feds, get it double-tracked for bidirectional service, get more trains and coaches, then run it every 10-15 minutes at peak hours and 30-60 minutes at non-peak.

I agree with that. I should submit a news story to global and see what they how much CP is charging taxpayers...

[Jared]

I asked the chief operations manager of SkyTrain about this when I met him in October. He says its simply not possible, even just on Fridays and Saturdays or alternating trains on one rail or any manner of "compromise" measure. They would like do to it if they could, but they pretty much need every single minute they have in order to get all the maintanence done.

[deasine]

hmmm =(

Well I guess they can have a SkyTrain Bus then? =) It's better than nothing.

[Overground]

So far I'm not for it. From reading around the net of other systems it seems the major issue is mandatory maintenance, and the few hours before 5am(ish) that they have time to do it in. This seems reasonable to me as maintenance equals reliability and safety. And what about increased staff funding for the extended hours?


Here is a post from a lady on Facebook -

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that SkyTrain operates on a standard gauge continuous weld running rail, with multiple switches, pocket tracks and crossovers, power rails for power supply, and LIM rail for propulsion, as well as a variety of other systems located at track level, all of which require continual regular daily maintenance throughout the mainline. As it is determined that the time frame in which this necessary work is to be completed has the least negative impact on the traveling public during the late night hours, this is the time selected.

It is a relatively brief nightly cessation in service with a great deal of track work accomplished, offset by the frequent service provided during the day. If this were not accomplised during the nonrevenue hours, then one would be expecting headways of at least half an hour to compensate. Unlike the fixed block heavy rail counterparts, SkyTrain does not have the windows between trains to accomplish significant rail work while the system is running.

[Canadian Mind]

can't get trains to single-track it over portions? I recall that there are crossovers at nearly every station

[SpongeG]

Other New York are there any systems that operate 24 hrs?

As it is Vancouver is pretty lucky to have a system that is as late as it is

When i was in london the trains stopped before 1 am

The main problem is an alternative service - there are 12 night buses but they are limited

[Nutterbug]

Other New York are there any systems that operate 24 hrs?

How is New York able to manage? Does having human operators for the trains have something to do with it?

[Jared]

How is New York able to manage? Does having human operators for the trains have something to do with it?

New York does it because they usually have multiple sets of rails. A SkyTrain route has a set of tracks in each direction. A New York subway route has 2 or even 3 sets of track in each direction, so they can close one set down for maintainance but still keep the system running.

[mr.x]

How is New York able to manage? Does having human operators for the trains have something to do with it?

i think someone said it was because some lines have a lot more tracks than just 2. Not all of the subway opens 24/7.

[worldwide]

most larger cities have at least a 24 bus service. on 2 occasions, both saturday nights, i have missed the last sfu nightbus which leaves at 3:09am and gets me home just around 4. the next bus on sunday morning doesnt get me home until almost 8:30. the one time i got stranded at UBC and therefore missed my connection downtown, the other time was this past new years so i ended up walking from woodland and 13th to where hastings meets inlet drive and barnet highway in burnaby. good times. well not really

[SpongeG]

but only some lines in new york are open 24/7 some do get closed down and frequency is minimal

I watch the New York WB11 news a lot and they always talk about the system and whats open or closed etc. so its a limited thing too

it would be nice to have 24/7 but whats the deal with locals thinking of all cities Vancouver should have it - if most cities that are much more world class than us - love that term - lol - don't have it - why would Vancouver - lol

[vanman]

they could do that here - have it run say every 30 minutes and charge the highest fare

but isn't the problem that they park the trains along the track at night? there is no yard for them to all go home to at night?

There is a yard near Edmonds station. I've seen at least 60 skytrains parked there in the middle of the night. It actually looks pretty cool as all their lights are left on plus with the Edmonds skyline directly in behind.

[eduardo88]

What exactly do they do in "track maintenance"? And about other 24 hour services, Berlin U-Bahn runs all night Fridays and Saturdays, and unlike New York, theres one one track in each direction and during the week they have a night bus that follows the route of the U-Bahn with a frequency of every 20-30 minutes.


Oh and the petition on facebook already has 11,319 members, not that facebook will ever change translink's mind...

[twoNeurons]

Yeah... NYC has local tracks and express tracks.

A SkyBus service could be run all night... stopping at each station (Express only)
The M-Line would be easy... just run the service along Lougheed Hwy.

The Expo Line would be a little more tricky when you get past Broadway station... maybe up broadway, then up Nanaimo, left on 29th, right to Joyce.... etc. There isn't really a clear path.

[officedweller]

What exactly do they do in "track maintenance"?

They probably inspect the rails and infrstrusture.
It would also include rail grinding. This is required because the Skytrain uses linear induction motors and does not rely on wheel-to-rail friction for traction. Therefore, the rails are not normally worn down in operation which allows the rails to get rusty and noisier (i.e. the Skytrain tracks are not shiny smooth like other rail systems which rely on friction for traction). The grinding smooths out the rail surface to help reduce noise.

[Hot Rod]

Other New York are there any systems that operate 24 hrs?

As it is Vancouver is pretty lucky to have a system that is as late as it is

When i was in london the trains stopped before 1 am

The main problem is an alternative service - there are 12 night buses but they are limited

Chicago is open 24hours on two of its subway lines, Red L and Blue L.

[lightrail]

most larger cities have at least a 24 bus service. on 2 occasions, both saturday nights, i have missed the last sfu nightbus which leaves at 3:09am and gets me home just around 4. the next bus on sunday morning doesnt get me home until almost 8:30. the one time i got stranded at UBC and therefore missed my connection downtown, the other time was this past new years so i ended up walking from woodland and 13th to where hastings meets inlet drive and barnet highway in burnaby. good times. well not really

Rather than push for 24/7 Skytrain, I would lobby Translink for true 24 hour bus service. After the last train from Waterfront, why not a "skybus" that stops only at skytrain stations running every 15 minutes?

The maintenance is needed, there's just no way around it. We should be happy it's open as late as it is - in Santiago de Chile, the last Metro leaves the end of the line at 11:00pm, after that it is buses only. London Underground shuts down at around midnight or just after. New York subway - not all lines operate 24/7 - and the trains are running on a fixed block system every 30 minutes in some cases, this allows time between trains for maintenance too.

[Hot Rod]

I think we should do 24/7 service on the new EXPANDED Expo line only, similar to how NY and Chicago do it in their subways for just one (or two) lines. We could do this and then have the TrainBus going to the other stations.

In any rate, we do need limited extended hours service - at the very least on Friday and Saturday nights. Also, I'd think we'd need to start the daily service before 5:30am with limited am service. This could/would offload some of the rush hour into the early morning, and maybe some commuters would like this and take advantage - thereby lessening/stabalizing the 7-9am rush somewhat.

[eduardo88]

I think we should do 24/7 service on the new EXPANDED Expo line only

since when is the expo line being extended?

It would also include rail grinding. This is required because the Skytrain uses linear induction motors and does not rely on wheel-to-rail friction for traction. Therefore, the rails are not normally worn down in operation which allows the rails to get rusty and noisier (i.e. the Skytrain tracks are not shiny smooth like other rail systems which rely on friction for traction). The grinding smooths out the rail surface to help reduce noise.

the track maintenance on skytrain involves grinding the rails, so they dont get rusty, but do they really need to be grinded EVERY day? I don't think that must rust could accumulate if they ran 24h service friday and saturday nights...is that the only reason they say they can't run 24h service? if so couldnt the canada line run 24h since it doesnt have the same problem regarding the rails?

[officedweller]

No clue as to the scheduling - they may do different sections periodically. I'm sure there are other maintenance activities too.

[Hot Rod]

since when is the expo line being extended?

It was in the announcement.

Expo line is being extended in Surrey and Expanded in the remaining areas. This is the most expensive of the $14B plan, at $3.8B IIRC.

[mr.x]

since when is the expo line being extended?



the track maintenance on skytrain involves grinding the rails, so they dont get rusty, but do they really need to be grinded EVERY day? I don't think that must rust could accumulate if they ran 24h service friday and saturday nights...is that the only reason they say they can't run 24h service? if so couldnt the canada line run 24h since it doesnt have the same problem regarding the rails?

the provincial government has announced a $14 billion transit plan for BC over the next 12 years, which includes vast improvements to the bus network as well as the UBC SkyTrain extension, Evergreen Line (likely SkyTrain), and a 6-km extension of the Expo line in Surrey - part of $3.8 billion in upgrades for the Expo Line to double its capacity. :D


i don't think they grind the rails every night...possibly they do it by segments so that every night, a different segment is grinded. that said, they do other types of maintenance over the entire line throughout the window of time they have.


With regards to 24/7 service, i think running a late-night frequent articulated bus along SkyTrain is decent enough.

[eduardo88]

It was in the announcement.

Expo line is being extended in Surrey and Expanded in the remaining areas. This is the most expensive of the $14B plan, at $3.8B IIRC.

i feel so stupid for having asked that...i posted that right before reading the other thread...