[SteelTown]

Onboard for high-speed line
Quebec City-Windsor rail link resurrected by McGuinty, Charest


Jan 11, 2008 04:30 AM

OTTAWA–After decades of study and debate, the premiers of Ontario and Quebec now say a high-speed rail line from Quebec City to Windsor is an idea whose "time has come."

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and Quebec Premier Jean Charest yesterday announced yet another feasibility study of a fast train line, but both made clear they thought the ambitious project may finally get on track.

Any such project would come with a hefty price tag. A 1995 feasibility study pegged the cost then at $18.3 billion.

"This has been talked about for quite some time but every once in a while there's an idea whose time actually comes," McGuinty said.

Charest said it was an idea "worth pursuing."

"I see this as a project that will have many, many economic, social and environmental benefits," he said after meeting with McGuinty at the Chateau Laurier.

While many studies have already been done, McGuinty said it was time to do one that took into account "some of the new realities."

Congested roads, ballooning gas prices and growing worries over climate change have all given new life to this old dream, the premiers said. And they pitched the multi-billion-dollar, 1,200-kilometre rail line as a massive job-creation scheme.

"I don't think there's any doubt there's going to be lots of good Ontario and Quebec jobs created as a result of this project," McGuinty said, citing the need for workers to build the tracks, manufacture the cars and engineer the high-speed technology.


Canadian Auto Workers president Buzz Hargrove said he would be "very supportive" of such a rail link if the rolling stock is built here.

"We need something different from what's happening today, a major mega-project that recognizes manufacturing is really, really struggling," Hargrove said before a morning Queen's Park meeting with McGuinty and auto executives to discuss the auto industry.

"As long as it's combined with a requirement that the vehicles or the cars that they use are purchased or built in Ontario or Canada then I'll be fine with it," he said.

Federal Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon said later that Ottawa would share the study cost.

"This government is committed to examining alternatives that offer comfortable, faster and more reliable passenger rail services that will also contribute to reducing greenhouse gases and other emissions," Cannon said in a statement.

But he said governments would have to assess the willingness of private firms to share in the cost "so that taxpayers do not have to shoulder the entire financial burden."

Long-time supporters of the project are expressing optimism that talk may finally turn into action.

"The time is now because of fuel costs ... because of the environment and because of the economy," said David Jeanes, president of Transport 2000 Canada, a public transportation advocacy group.

The 1995 study of the project, done by the three levels of government, concluded that a high-speed rail line would woo passengers away from cars and airlines, resulting in a 20 per cent cut in energy consumption related to intercity travel. It also forecast a reduction in greenhouse gases.

The new service would also be a boon to travellers. Whizzing along the tracks at upwards of 300 km/h – double the speed of VIA Rail's current trains – it would take two hours and 18 minutes to travel between Montreal and Toronto, down from four hours.

[SteelTown]

Think this could have a stop at Hamilton?

Under the 1995 plan it didn't.

I know the Lakeshore line is suppose to get electrified part of MoveOntario 2020 and possibly the high speed train could link up with the Lakeshore line to save some money.

[block43]

Think this could have a stop at Hamilton?

Under the 1995 plan it didn't.

I know the Lakeshore line is suppose to get electrified part of MoveOntario 2020 and possibly the high speed train could link up with the Lakeshore line to save some money.

It would be bad for Hamilton if it wasn't on this line. They would have to do a Provincial Environmental Assessment to look at alternative routing.

[kitchener-lrt]

Think this could have a stop at Hamilton?



I'm assuming that Hamilton would be the station in between Toronto and Kitchener.:cheers:

BTW, there are a few threads on this topic already:P .

[the dude]

^maybe, but i doubt it. i'm guessing the route will follow the 401.

i've always wondered about the windsor-quebec corridor. would a line through niagara into ny not get more passengers than a route to detroit and chicago?

[raisethehammer]

I've always heard that it will zip down the 401. miss us completely.
Niagara doesn't even have GO service...they won't be getting high speed anytime in our lifetime.

[kitchener-lrt]

I've always heard that it will zip down the 401. miss us completely.
Niagara doesn't even have GO service...they won't be getting high speed anytime in our lifetime.

That kind of sucks. Even if you won't get HSR, you'll still have VIA service, as well as all-day electrified GO train service, so I think that Hamilton won't be missed entirely.

[flar]

This wouldn't stop in Hamilton unfortunately, it'll follow the 401 roughly. Existing trains don't even stop here!

[hamiltonguy]

It will most likely not use a completely new corridor. It will either take the Northern Toronto to London Line (Via Kitchener, Guelph etc.) or by the Southern Route (Via Hamilton and Brantford.)

They each have advantages, but if it's successfull on one, the other will get service too, as well as High Speed Rail to Buffalo (to hook in to future Buffalo to New York HSR)

If the HSR corridors that have been approved by the US federal government for funding happen then there will be a network from Chicago to New York, via Canada

[block43]

They should put elevated high speed trains over the existing highway corridors...the suckers in traffic could watch you zip by and convert to transit riders :)

[go_leafs_go02]

yeah, i just see it following the present via rail corridor, and mainly by following the London, woodstock, brantford, aldershot VIA line.

I see no reason to go through Kitchener.

Aldershot will be as close as it gets to Hamilton, but geographically, it only makes sense.

[flar]

I see no reason to go through Kitchener.



WaterlooInvestor could give you a hundred reasons, and I think many people, especially politicians and bureaucrats, think Kitchener-Waterloo is a city on the rise, as opposed to Hamilton, which many people think is yesterday's city.

[WaterlooInvestor]

WaterlooInvestor could give you a hundred reasons

:P

[HAMRetrofit]

Kitchener will run into growing pains eventually. A city can't become overdependent on one sector for too long without running into difficulty. This was Hamilton's downfall, which the city seems to finally be overcoming hence the slow growth. Kitchener seems to be following in these footsteps.

There is no advantage to the rail following the 401 over the 403 and QEW combo. Running high speed rail along the Gardiner, QEW and 403 would service Downtown Toronto, Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, and Brantford. Hamilton would be a logical hub if the service was to be extended to St. Catharine's, Niagara, and Buffalo.

[hamiltonguy]

I know this will cheese people off here but there won't be a stop in the City of Hamilton proper for the High Speed Train even if it takes the southern corridor. Theres just no place for one, the only solution for the Hamilton CMA For Toronto-London trains is Aldershot.

[HAMRetrofit]

This will be an infrastructural mega project so anything will be possible. If existing lines are used they will need to be straitened significantly. Since most of this will be built new, the Dundas to Brantford Rail Trail could be redeveloped as the southern route of the high speed rail line. The station could be on Dundurn Street at Main. It is too early to speculate on high speed rail not being able to access central Hamilton. If the political will is there it is possible. Actually the province could even be considering this route as part of the GO train electrification project as it would reduce costs to combine both lines along this corridor.

[go_leafs_go02]

I think Kitchener/Waterloo should just be given an all-day GO train connection first.

Inbetween London and hamilton, there is alot more as well. Woodstock and Brantford are all growing cities, particularily Woodstock with the Toyota Plant,

Between London and Kitchener, there is two small cities, Stratford, and St. Mary's.

Besides, most of the trains connecting through Toronto from London go through Aldershot, Oakville.

[SteelTown]

Hopefully you guys won't turn this into a nasty bickering battle between K/W and Hamilton.

I just think things are different from 1995 as now the Lakeshore line will be electrified. Back in 1995 the price tag was $18 billion imagine the pricetag now, probably in the mid 20's billion. So if they wanted to save money they could use the Lakeshore line for the high speed train. VIA rail uses the Lakeshore line anyways and I imagine VIA will be running this high speed train system.

If they do go ahead with the electrified Lakeshore line a Hamilton stop could be somewhere along the Chedoke creek, Innovation Park area (probably the best area for the stop) and then I imagine the track would go along the 403 towards Brantford then Woodstock and that's where 403 and 401 links up and off to London.

[hamiltonguy]

The track to Brantford does NOT go past the innovation park, NO.

The line was abandoned years ago for a good reason. The ground under the line at places like Cainsville is unstable, in fact the track washed out there and it was too expensive to fix, which lead to the abandonment. The route VIA uses now (ie. VIA the CN line to Brantford) is much better suited to Rail.

Remember the TH&B was the Second line from Hamilton to Brantford and was therefore limited in route.

I think however in all likely hood though that a Southern routing for the Windsor Quebec corridor between Toronto and London would be preferred.

There are many reasons:

1) Because there are less stops (none that would be eliminated), there would be no need for a parallel local VIA service, unlike the Northern Routing.

2) More population along the Southern Routing.

3) Easier Connection to Niagara-Buffalo when that Branch is added.

4) Ties in with Lakeshore corridor expansion project.

Ideally, East of Oakville, I'd want a 4 Track High Speed tunnel to Toronto along the corridor. There would be 2 tracks for High Speed Rail and 2 for Express GO Trains (Which would be the electrified ones originating from west of Oakville) and local VIA/ Amtrack trains (to Niagara, Buffalo and points beyond).

If High track standards are used, then even the local trains can be sped up. My point is though that the Southern Corridor is much better for HSR.

[SteelTown]

Here I made this map with the rail tracks.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/tracks.jpg

The purple is the current route GO Train takes to Hamilton. The brown circle is TH&B station.

The blue is what Metrolinx would like to happen in the near future. The brown circle is the proposed location of the new GO Station.

Now I don't know which part of the track will be electrified. Perhaps both as Metrolinx sees TH&B being rush hour GO Train service and the new waterfront GO Station as all day (non rush hour) GO Train service.

The red is where the high speed train could take into Hamilton and make a stop near Innovation Park near the train yard.

[go_leafs_go02]

but why would a highspeed train make a stop there, and then have to turn around? It has to be in a straight line.

NO matter what happens, it will be focused at Aldershot. Hamilton is too far south and with the geography of Burlington Bay and Lake Ontario, the rail line will never extend into Hamilton.

And saying that, it's ok. The appeal of highspeed rail should make it worth it to get to Aldershot to catch the train. Why that station has such crappy HSR (hamilton street railway) bus connections is beyond me. But it looks to be rectified soon. (I hope)

[SteelTown]

Turn around where? They could build the tracks straight down to Brantford and then Woodstock and link up with London.

[go_leafs_go02]

I doubt you'll see the construction of any new rail corridors. The current routing works pretty good.

I'm talking about that red line towards Innovation Park. The tracks there are long gone towards Brantford, and I can't understand why you would plan to route the high-speed rail line through there.

Maybe I'm missing/misunderstood something.

[SteelTown]

I'm talking about that red line towards Innovation Park. The tracks there are long gone towards Brantford, and I can't understand why you would plan to route the high-speed rail line through there.

Maybe I'm missing/misunderstood something.

Because I'm using existing rail tracks and it happens to conveniently pass by the Innovation Park, probably the best place for a stop and probably the only place for a stop as this whole track is below grade, the track is below Main and King St and finally resurface around Frid St. This would probably be the only way high speed trains would enter into Hamilton. That yard was the site GO Trainsit was looking at for storage of GO trains.

[SteelTown]

NO matter what happens, it will be focused at Aldershot. Hamilton is too far south and with the geography of Burlington Bay and Lake Ontario, the rail line will never extend into Hamilton.

Even if its focused at Aldershot the tracks will have to pass down to Hamilton, unless it's going to make a u turn from Aldershot and up to K/W.

[SteelTown]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/viatrack.jpg

Either it goes towards Aldershot or K/W. If it goes to Aldershot than perhaps make it go towards Hamilton.

[chris k]

I was actually curious about this yard and lets say MIP gets so full and they fill up remaining space around it with bio-tech industry, could that rail yard be used as an expansion for MIP or other future projects? I think if succesful this is likely to happen.
:cheers:

[HAMRetrofit]

I doubt you'll see the construction of any new rail corridors. The current routing works pretty good.

The rail system in Ontario is absolute garbage built on the foundation of 18th century technology. This will be a mega project. The rail system will be entirely overhauled. Building high speed rail corridors on Ontario's antiquated rail lines is preposterous. The system will need to be built on entirely new footings, use the most modern of technology, and straight through routes for the highest speeds possible. I agree the southern route makes much more sense w/ perhaps sending some conventional service through the northern route.

[SteelTown]

Here I made this map with the rail tracks.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/tracks.jpg



To continue on with the old rail track towards Brantford......

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/track1.jpg

[kitchener-lrt]

They should put elevated high speed trains over the existing highway corridors...the suckers in traffic could watch you zip by and convert to transit riders :)
I always wanted that to happen:D, except with a Maglev:rolleyes: .

yeah, i just see it following the present via rail corridor, and mainly by following the London, woodstock, brantford, aldershot VIA line.

I see no reason to go through Kitchener.

I don't want to turn this into a Kitchener vs. Hamilton thread either, but most of the studies done since the 80's insisted on skipping Hamilton all together, and have the route go from Toronto, to Pearson, and onto Kitchener. If anything new evolves from this study, it's probably suggest connecting Kitchener and Toronto via Hamilton.


Kitchener will run into growing pains eventually. A city can't become overdependent on one sector for too long without running into difficulty. This was Hamilton's downfall, which the city seems to finally be overcoming hence the slow growth. Kitchener seems to be following in these footsteps.

Kitchener isn't overdependent on one sector. Sure we have a fair amount of Research related business, but we also have an automotive sector, and financial sector. I doubt Kitchener-Waterloo will ever suffer as badly as Hamilton, as more and more investment is being made in our region.


I think Kitchener/Waterloo should just be given an all-day GO train connection first.
The government's currently studying extending the GO line from Georgetown to Kitchener, via Guelph.


Inbetween London and hamilton, there is alot more as well. Woodstock and Brantford are all growing cities, particularily Woodstock with the Toyota Plant,

Between London and Kitchener, there is two small cities, Stratford, and St. Mary's.

Besides, most of the trains connecting through Toronto from London go through Aldershot, Oakville.

This won't matter for the HSR line, as it would completely pass cities like Stratford, and Oakville. Just because there is a larger population in between Hamilton and London doesn't mean that HSR would go there, as it would only stop at the major cities.

[go_leafs_go02]

The rail system in Ontario is absolute garbage built on the foundation of 18th century technology. This will be a mega project. The rail system will be entirely overhauled. Building high speed rail corridors on Ontario's antiquated rail lines is preposterous. The system will need to be built on entirely new footings, use the most modern of technology, and straight through routes for the highest speeds possible. I agree the southern route makes much more sense w/ perhaps sending some conventional service through the northern route.
I really don't see the possibility of new rail right of ways being acquired from private ownership. I just alwasy thought it would follow the present rail line, but everything on that would be utterly and completely overhauled and rebuilt. I know the rail lines are garbages, have sharp curves, and rough sections. I ride the VIA train several times a year, It isn't that smooth.

I just don't understand why a new line would bother to go through Hamilton otherthan Aldershot, being a stop between Toronto and London. That old rail line goes through dense neighbourhoods, and based on what I've seen, in some spots, buildings have been constructed where the rail line was built.

If possible, I'd like to see high-speed rail make a little bit of a jog to run by Innovation Park and closer to Downtown Hamilton. I just kinda have always assumed that the new link will just run on existing rail lines used by VIA today, and not including the Niagara spur loop to the falls.

[SteelTown]

The report will take a year to develop so we'll just have to wait and see.

I just think things look better now than compared to the 1995, Places to Grow Act, Metrolinx, 2 RT lines, GO transit improvements, another GO station being proposed, Lakeshore line going to get electrified, growing need to have better connection from Niagara to GTA and Hamilton bring the gateway to each regions.

[The Geographer]

Stupid question:if it goes along the 401, does that mean they are bypassing Union Station?

Or does it move to the 401 farther west? I better go hit google maps...

EDIT: Another question... how much more would it cost to run a parallel line to Hamilton along Lakeshore West, which would then re-merge with the Kitchener line in London? That leaves open the possibility of the Hamilton line going to NYC while also serving a city of 700,000.

[raisethehammer]

I'm 30 years old and don't expect to see any type of high speed rail in southern Ontario in my lifetime....am I the only one who feels this way??
governments change and none of them have it as such a high priority that would keep it going through multiple elections and governments...it sounds cute, so that's why we're hearing about it...again.

[kitchener-lrt]

I'm 30 years old and don't expect to see any type of high speed rail in southern Ontario in my lifetime....am I the only one who feels this way??

Government's do tend to just talk:shrug: .
I think that this will be the last study before construction. Ontario and Quebec seem serious about this, and have realized that we can't simply continue down the road with our current infrustructure. There'll probably be a federal government change, that'll see funding for HSR. That's what I think.

[hamiltonguy]

It is an impossibility for the HSR to use the old TH&B line to Brantford.

1)The ground is unstable 2) The Right of Way is NOT straight enough (see the map with the blue line showing it's routing to Brantford)

i wish people would get it out of their head that this will happen.

The station WILL be Aldershot because it's the closest place on the CN line to downtown Hamilton.

[hamiltonguy]

Stupid question:if it goes along the 401, does that mean they are bypassing Union Station?

Or does it move to the 401 farther west? I better go hit google maps...

EDIT: Another question... how much more would it cost to run a parallel line to Hamilton along Lakeshore West, which would then re-merge with the Kitchener line in London? That leaves open the possibility of the Hamilton line going to NYC while also serving a city of 700,000.

1) it will not follow the 401 exactly, the rail corridor East of Toronto and West of London just happen to roughly parallel it.

2) Either the northern or southern corridor will be built first. If that one is a success then it is likely the other will get HSR

[WaterlooInvestor]

Hopefully you guys won't turn this into a nasty bickering battle between K/W and Hamilton.

I don't want to turn this into a vs. battle either. That said, I do feel KW should be included. If anyone disagrees, please take a few minutes to scroll through our local section and you'll see the city is doing very well. Perhaps the best plan would be to include both cities. I see you guys often like to refer to yourselves as the "Gateway to Niagara". As such, a line could be built from Toronto to Niagara Falls with a Hamilton Station. KW could act as the "Gateway to SWO", and could have a station on a Toronto to Windsor line. Perfect? No, but at least it includes everyone. Then if we had an American partnership, the gap between London and Hamilton could be filled in to also connect Detroit and Buffalo.

I'm 30 years old and don't expect to see any type of high speed rail in southern Ontario in my lifetime....am I the only one who feels this way??
governments change and none of them have it as such a high priority that would keep it going through multiple elections and governments...it sounds cute, so that's why we're hearing about it...again.

Only if we continue to elect a government that would rather make the worst possible tax cut, the 2% GST reduction, which costs $12 billion/year and which does relatively little for the economy. In only 2 years, that GST money could pay for a high speed rail line, a project that could actually boost our economic performance.

[HAMRetrofit]

Well if the line is not built to link the urban centers of Quebec and Ontario's major cities then I don't care if this ever gets built. These are the places that business commuters need to get directly too. If it does not accommodate this need then why bother? The line needs to connect downtown Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, London, and Windsor. These are the major centers that need to be linked. I don't care what infrastructure needs to be constructed to make the project successful. Bore tunnels under the lake, bore tunnels through the escarpment, elevate major sections of it, and consolidate private land. Don't half ass a 20 plus billion dollar project to simply follow rail lines that were laid out almost two hundred years ago. Design the system properly from the beginning and forget about the shitty old systems that simply cannot work. I am sick of this crap attitude of half assing mega projects. Build it right because the system will likely be around for the next two hundred or so years.

[Cambridgite]

Well if the line is not built to link the urban centers of Quebec and Ontario's major cities then I don't care if this ever gets built. These are the places that business commuters need to get directly too. If it does not accommodate this need then why bother? The line needs to connect downtown Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, London, and Windsor. These are the major centers that need to be linked. I don't care what infrastructure needs to be constructed to make the project successful. Bore tunnels under the lake, bore tunnels through the escarpment, elevate major sections of it, and consolidate private land. Don't half ass a 20 plus billion dollar project to simply follow rail lines that were laid out almost two hundred years ago. Design the system properly from the beginning and forget about the shitty old systems that simply cannot work. I am sick of this crap attitude of half assing mega projects. Build it right because the system will likely be around for the next two hundred or so years.

:yes:

[Cambridgite]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/viatrack.jpg

I love this arrangement. Perfect! The Sarnia spur may not be necessary though.

Either it goes towards Aldershot or K/W. If it goes to Aldershot than perhaps make it go towards Hamilton.

Why not Aldershot AND K/W? Both lines have plenty to service compared to most of the line which runs through farmland and distantly connected centres (eastern Ontario and extreme SWO). It's just a matter of which one gets it first.

[WaterlooInvestor]

Well if the line is not built to link the urban centers of Quebec and Ontario's major cities then I don't care if this ever gets built. These are the places that business commuters need to get directly too. If it does not accommodate this need then why bother? The line needs to connect downtown Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, London, and Windsor. These are the major centers that need to be linked. I don't care what infrastructure needs to be constructed to make the project successful. Bore tunnels under the lake, bore tunnels through the escarpment, elevate major sections of it, and consolidate private land. Don't half ass a 20 plus billion dollar project to simply follow rail lines that were laid out almost two hundred years ago. Design the system properly from the beginning and forget about the shitty old systems that simply cannot work. I am sick of this crap attitude of half assing mega projects. Build it right because the system will likely be around for the next two hundred or so years.

I agree the system should be built properly.

The only part I disagree on is the city's list. You mention major business centres, but left out KW. That doesn't make any sense.

[HAMRetrofit]

Perhaps Kitchener would be the next priority after Oshawa and Mississauga. :koko:

[SteelTown]

^ Easy! Be gentle.

You can state your opinion but don't start bickering.

[hamiltonguy]

How much better is a station in downtown Hamilton than Aldershot?

Theres very little benefit for the amount of money that you'd have to spend to accomplish this.

[WaterlooInvestor]

Perhaps Kitchener would be the next priority after Oshawa and Mississauga. :koko:

Yeah I guess we're so low at the bottom of the list that we had to get crappy McMaster to be involved in Kitchener's crappy Downtown Health Sciences Campus. My area's broke, so we're having to build the campus entirely in stucco without any windows. :rolleyes:

[Cambridgite]

Herrrrre we go...

[raisethehammer]

oh brother......

[kitchener-lrt]

Herrrrre we go...

oh brother......

LOL. Has anyone ever realized that maybe, just maybe, KW and Hamilton can BOTH be served by HSR?
Both KW and Hamilton have big populations, and both need to be connected. That doesn't mean that we should be compared to Oshawa:yuck: .

[Cambridgite]

LOL. Has anyone ever realized that maybe, just maybe, KW and Hamilton can BOTH be served by HSR?
Both KW and Hamilton have big populations, and both need to be connected. That doesn't mean that we should be compared to Oshawa:yuck: .

That's what I've been saying all along! However, if you check google maps, you won't see any train tracks connecting Hamilton directly to Waterloo Region. But I'm sure GO transit could run busses between the two. We could have 3 lines in Southern Ontario. One serves the London-Kitchener-Toronto corridor. Another serves the Toronto-Hamilton-Brantford-London corridor. And yet another serves the Toronto-Hamilton-Niagara corridor. I think it's doable.

[hamiltonguy]

I figure eventually that cambridgite is right and in the end all the Quebec-Windsor corridor will have High Speed trains.

[The Geographer]

Government's do tend to just talk:shrug: .
I think that this will be the last study before construction. Ontario and Quebec seem serious about this, and have realized that we can't simply continue down the road with our current infrustructure. There'll probably be a federal government change, that'll see funding for HSR. That's what I think.

Ontario and Quebec also have very skilled manufacturing labour forces which are shedding jobs very quickly these days. Building HSR would be a great way for the provinces to maintain this labour force by creating tons of long-term jobs. Allowing the skilled labour to bleed away, then trying to re-train it a decade down the road could cost as much as HSR (or more). The difference is with HSR, you get something extremely useful out of the deal while keeping the skilled labour.

[The Geographer]

Stupid question:if it goes along the 401, does that mean they are bypassing Union Station?

Or does it move to the 401 farther west? I better go hit google maps...

EDIT: Another question... how much more would it cost to run a parallel line to Hamilton along Lakeshore West, which would then re-merge with the Kitchener line in London? That leaves open the possibility of the Hamilton line going to NYC while also serving a city of 700,000.

That's what I've been saying all along! However, if you check google maps, you won't see any train tracks connecting Hamilton directly to Waterloo Region. But I'm sure GO transit could run busses between the two. We could have 3 lines in Southern Ontario. One serves the London-Kitchener-Toronto corridor. Another serves the Toronto-Hamilton-Brantford-London corridor. And yet another serves the Toronto-Hamilton-Niagara corridor. I think it's doable.

:haha: That is what I was trying to say.

Anyway, looking at that VIA map, the historical legacy of the St. Lawrence Seaway has made Eastern Canada develop into the ideal for HSR. Everything is in a nice freaking line, like beads on a necklace. Now one could argue that the cities themselves are too low density, that air travel is cheap, HSR is too expensive, etc., but if none of that info was available, it would look like the ideal candidate.

[HAMRetrofit]

Kitchener's crappy

My area's broke

Really? Interesting that you feel this way about the city you defend so vigorously. :haha:

[markbarbera]

Cute, HAMretrofit!

What I really like about the Hamilton threads is the pasionate discussion about the city that goes on within every thread. Everyone obviuosly cares deeply about the Hammer, but this the talk is not sugar-coated or censored. We celebrate the city, warts and all and exercise open debate on various issues affecting the city.

So many of the folks posting in the other threads about Ontario's smaller cities act simply as blind cheerleaders and lash out at the slightest critique that may be deemed negative in even the slightest fashion. Thank God that is not the case with the Hamilton threads. The discussions are always frank, without reserve, and down-to-earth, like the people who call the Hammer home. We are unreserved in our discussion about Hamilton, yet the threads never belittle the smaller cities neighbouring ours. Good on you, guys!

Now, having said that, and seeing as this is a discussion in the Hamilton SSP, can we focus further talk on the proposed high speed rail and its potential impact on Hamilton? Currently the scope of the discussion begs this to be moved to the Ontario-wide forum.

[Cambridgite]

Cute, HAMretrofit!

What I really like about the Hamilton threads is the pasionate discussion about the city that goes on within every thread. Everyone obviuosly cares deeply about the Hammer, but this the talk is not sugar-coated or censored. We celebrate the city, warts and all and exercise open debate on various issues affecting the city.

So many of the folks posting in the other threads about Ontario's smaller cities act simply as blind cheerleaders and lash out at the slightest critique that may be deemed negative in even the slightest fashion. Thank God that is not the case with the Hamilton threads. The discussions are always frank, without reserve, and down-to-earth, like the people who call the Hammer home. We are unreserved in our discussion about Hamilton, yet the threads never belittle the smaller cities neighbouring ours. Good on you, guys!

Now, having said that, and seeing as this is a discussion in the Hamilton SSP, can we focus further talk on the proposed high speed rail and its potential impact on Hamilton? Currently the scope of the discussion begs this to be moved to the Ontario-wide forum.

Could this be a hint towards certain other forumers? ;)

[SteelTown]

A major reason why Metrolinx wants another GO Station in Hamilton (by the waterfront) is to conintue the GO Train towards the Niagara region and East Hamilton. So perhaps they'll electrify this line and make Hamilton a hub between the GTA and the Niagara region for this new electrified Lakeshore line.

Though it won't be as fast as the high speed train as the GO Train will make a lot more stops. If the high speed train went to Aldershot people could take the GO Train and stop at Aldershot and whip on by to Toronto in like 20 minutes.

[chris k]

I agree that Niagara needs GO service. I'm sure places like Grimsby and St. Catharines would love GO to whip into Toronto or even Hamilton for that matter to go to some events such as sports/shows/business etc.

It's a great reason to add Hamilton to the list of stops on here for all day service. If they do build a stop here, would it be on the lot across Liuna station on James?
:cheers:

P.S. Dont let this thread degenerate to useless battles about Kitchener vs. Hamilton. Make a thread for that somewhere else if you really want to:tup:

[hamiltonguy]

I agree that Niagara needs GO service. I'm sure places like Grimsby and St. Catharines would love GO to whip into Toronto or even Hamilton for that matter to go to some events such as sports/shows/business etc.

It's a great reason to add Hamilton to the list of stops on here for all day service. If they do build a stop here, would it be on the lot across Liuna station on James?
:cheers:

P.S. Dont let this thread degenerate to useless battles about Kitchener vs. Hamilton. Make a thread for that somewhere else if you really want to:tup:

I've been thinking about how a set up for a James North Station would work.

Since the Area where the platforms used to be is huge because it was built for many more platforms than needed, I think the station should be there, with a Platform level portion ( For VIA) and a LIUNA Station/ Street Level area and bridge across the rest of the tracks to the street on the north side.

The Waterfront Streetcar Line could have access from the Bridge on James Street. #4 Harbourfront Buses could jog over from John and Loop in front of LIUNA Station with access through the Old Station. Access from Taxis could come through on the street North of the tracks with access through the Bridge over the tracks.

Parking could be accessible from Bay Street and be a parking garage on the same part as the Station but on the west side James Street.

[LikeHamilton]

My prediction is cynical but I believe historically true. The first phase will be a non-stop line from Toronto to Montreal. Nothing in between. It will be paid for by the Fed’s, Ontario and Quebec governments. Phase 2, 3, 4 etc will never be built do to traditional huge cost over runs and delays in phase 1.

If it comes to Hamilton, Kitchener or where ever, it will just skirt the city with a quick stop station with connections to the downtown and other cities. There will be as few stops as possible.


:shrug:

[SteelTown]

^ Likely will happen. Been years of talk of having high speed trains from Windsor to Quebec City. So if it happened it'll likely be TO to MTL.

Though lucky the Lakeshore line will be electrified so we're on the good side as the high speed train could easily hop on the line from Toronto to Hamilton.

[WaterlooInvestor]

oh brother......

That was a complete joke btw, hence the 'roll eyes'.

LOL. Has anyone ever realized that maybe, just maybe, KW and Hamilton can BOTH be served by HSR?
Both KW and Hamilton have big populations, and both need to be connected. That doesn't mean that we should be compared to Oshawa:yuck: .

Exactly. Nowhere have I said Hamilton should be excluded, yet a few people from Hamilton have said KW shouldn't be on the list (or if it is, then at the very bottom). :no: This is a rail line that should be connecting all the major metros, it doesn't have to be either/or. Both Hamilton and KW can and should be included. I'll repeat that again: Both Hamilton and KW can and should be included. Now before I get another ridiculous comment from HAMRetrofit, "yes" KW has become a major Canadian metro. Flar stated I could give you a hundred reasons to support this and he's correct. I suggested to visit our local section, but it's obvious HAMRetrofit didn't so here's reason #26: the Federal Liberal caucus (~160 MP's and Senators) will be meeting in Kitchener-Waterloo next Monday & Tuesday. If a high-speed rail line is built, this is the group of people who will eventually fund the project (since I don't see Harper being eager to spend $25-billion on transit) and they have a good impression of my area.

[raisethehammer]

Really? Interesting that you feel this way about the city you defend so vigorously. :haha:


haha..nice. You could get a job at FOX or CNN with this type of editing skill. :haha:

[WaterlooInvestor]

We are unreserved in our discussion about Hamilton, yet the threads never belittle the smaller cities neighbouring ours. Good on you, guys!

Yeah, I'm sure nobody has ever badmouthed Borington or put down Brantford or Barrie in the Hamilton section before. Your self-righteousness is pathetic. :haha:

[you can thank markbarbera's post history for this comment]

[markbarbera]

Oh dear, here he goes again...

The post he is referring to can be found here (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3287428&postcount=18). Apparantly he deems it to be pathetic and self-righteous. Feel free to read it and come to your own conclusions.

[raisethehammer]

someone already said it....many posters from these other little cities get their knickers in a knot if a single negative word is said about their town.
I'm a huge Hamilton booster and have been accused of being too negative towards my own city in some postings....no, it's called realism. The world isn't all wonderful and fabulous. Holding elected officials to a high standard and expecting proper decisions for my city is part of being passionate about Hamilton.
Being a never-ending supporter and booster of all things Hamilton would make me stupid and blind to reality.
I'm glad the Hamilton forums have a good mix of people who can see, identify and openly discuss problems while at the same time casting great vision and ideas for our city.
Looking at the world through rose-coloured glasses gets you nowhere.

[SteelTown]

So lets say the government goes ahead with a plan to have High Speed Trains from Toronto-Hamilton-Buffalo. Where would the line go? CP line (TH&B Station, erm guess the full name of the Station is haha), CN line (Liuna Station) or a new line?

[hamiltonguy]

CN line. The CP line has the Tunnel and only Welland as an intermediate stop. Likely they would want a Stop at St.Catharines instead.

[Jon Dalton]

Haven't you been following the other discussion? We have unrealistic pipe dreams of connecting the two lines!

CN would be more appropriate though, considering it goes straight as an arrow all the way through Hamilton.

I'm somewhat skeptical of high speed ever stopping here because of the close proximity of other major cities. With decent conventional rail service Toronto, Niagara and K/W would be less than an hour away. True high speed rail (over 250km/h) does not stop often, to do so would be inefficient. Typically it's at least 2 hours in between stops.

I should emphasize, if we had conventional rail that ran without delays (VIA can go 160km/h if the tracks permit), there would be no need for high speed. We could get to toronto in half an hour, or Niagara to connect to the US, and take high speed from there.

[Mister F]

Yeah a system with two lines would be ideal. The line to Niagara/Buffalo would go through Hamilton and the line to Windsor would go through K/W.

The first phase would likely be to Windsor though, and there are lots of reasons for it to go through Kitchener rather than Hamilton.
-it's not any farther. If you draw straight lines connecting downtown Toronto, Pearson Airport, Kitchener, and London, and another one connecting Toronto, Hamilton, and London, they end up almost exactly the same length - 173 km vs 172. Here's the map. (http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=43.153102,-79.942017&spn=2.300241,3.955078&z=8&om=0&msid=116891719640010190964.00044401d30e9e5f9e9d5) The current VIA line through Kitchener follows an indirect, slow route so you can't use that to judge which would be faster.
-Pearson Airport should have a station.
-It's difficult to build a line going into Hamilton, then up the escarpment towards London. Much easier to continue east towards Buffalo.
-Hamilton is closer to Toronto and a pretty short GO Train ride. With an electrified Lakeshore line it will have excellent connections to Toronto, so there’s less need for high speed rail.

It's really a moot point for the time being though. The first phase would undoubtedly be Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, or maybe even Montreal-Ottawa. Anything into SW Ontario and Niagara would be future phases.

[HAMRetrofit]

The first phase would likely be to Windsor though, and there are lots of reasons for it to go through Kitchener rather than Hamilton.

Such as? and don't give me any bullshit about Kitchener and its sprawling innovation parks and rim. Talk to me about infrastructure and concentrated population.

-It's difficult to build a line going into Hamilton, then up the escarpment towards London. Much easier to continue east towards Buffalo.

So what. Its a 20 billion dollar project. It will need to travel up the escarpment either way it goes.

-Hamilton is closer to Toronto and a pretty short GO Train ride. With an electrified Lakeshore line it will have excellent connections to Toronto, so there’s less need for high speed rail.

The electrified GO line would likely share service with high speed rail.

The first phase would undoubtedly be Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal

Hopefully! But I can't see why this would not be Hamilton-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal to build synergies between the Move Ontario electrified GO project and the high speed rail project.

[Mister F]

Jeez dude, ease up on the hostility :rolleyes:

The electrified GO line would likely share service with high speed rail.
Put it this way: If a line to Windsor goes through Pearson and Kitchener, Hamilton residents will still have a fast, frequent connection to Union. If it goes through Hamilton instead, people in Kitchener and Pearson will have pretty much nothing. By going through Kitchener you might spend slightly more but a lot more people get quality rail service. If it goes through Hamilton you save a small amount but bypass not only half a million people in the Kitchener area, but the busiest airport in the country. More bang for your buck going through Kitchener.

Hopefully! But I can't see why this would not be Hamilton-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal to build synergies between the Move Ontario electrified GO project and the high speed rail project.
I'm not saying Hamilton shouldn't get a line, I'm saying its line should go to Niagara while the line to Windsor should go through Kitchener.

[go_leafs_go02]

question.

what about those you want to travel from Hamilton to London? will they be forced to go through Union?

[Mister F]

question.

what about those you want to travel from Hamilton to London? will they be forced to go through Union?
That's a pretty small market compared to Hamilton-Toronto or Kitchener-Toronto. I'm sure the conventional rail line will still be there, which is actually pretty fast.

[HAMRetrofit]

I apologize for seeming hostile.

By going through Kitchener you might spend slightly more but a lot more people get quality rail service. If it goes through Hamilton you save a small amount but bypass not only half a million people in the Kitchener area, but the busiest airport in the country.

If Hamilton is by-passed three quarters of a million people are left without high speed service so what is your point?

Pearson should not be a high priority for connecting to the high speed rail line. If people are interested in high speed connections from airport to airport they will fly. There are numerous high speed air flights between each of these cities. If the train is not connecting concentrated urban center to concentrated urban center it serves no purpose and will fail. The airline industry is an extremely powerful market driven force. It will do everything possible to compete with this high speed train line. As a business traveler that often commutes between these four cities I will not take the train unless it connects me directly where I need to go in each city (the business center).

More bang for your buck going through Kitchener.

Incorrect. The best bang for the buck would to be to set up Kitchener with conventional GO service and work from there. The city has not yet carved out a market for commuting using train services.

[go_leafs_go02]

and I have a feeling that we are setting ourselves up for disaster in the future. Our economy is growing and our cities are expanding at ridiculous rates right around here, and i see all these amazing, great plans for transportation to be pushed back or cancelled.

I think that alot of major cities are going to be hurting somewhat badly as the recession in the USA slowly drifts over here and affects us.

Hopefully I'm way wrong though. :)

[LikeHamilton]

I thought that there was in the plans for a high-speed line from Pearson Airport to Union Station called “Blue 22”?

From Wikipedia®
On June 15, 2007, Premier of Ontario Dalton McGuinty announced "MoveOntario 2020", a plan to fund 52 transit projects in Ontario to improve transit services provided in southern Ontario. In this funding plan Blue22 is among the recipents of funding.
Does anyone have any other info on Blue 22?

Some other quotes I found.

On Thursday, the Quebec, Ontario and federal governments announced they will spend a total of $2 million to update previous feasibility studies of a high-speed train in the Quebec City-Windsor, Ont., corridor.
On the same day, it emerged that transit authorities and all three levels of government are studying plans for a “tram-train” light-rail project to provide the first direct public-transit link to Trudeau airport. Serving commuters and airport users, it would run from the West Island to downtown.

Collenette told the National Post in December that a Toronto-Montreal-Toronto high-speed train will be needed, but "we're thinking of a 10-to 20-year time frame."

[SteelTown]

It's more of a bang because it's going pass Pearson that's basically why K/W is likely the route to take.

But just think as I've been trying to show you guys the big picture in the future we will likely have GO Trains going along the CN track to East Hamilton and perhaps Grimsby in the near term well longer in the future we could also have high speed rail (I could say HSR but that will confuse people) spur line along the CP track to the TH&B Station (Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo Station). Therefore both stations will be well used in the future. Short term the TH&B station will likely be used as the GO Bus terminal and HSR downtown transit terminal as well.

[Mister F]

If Hamilton is by-passed three quarters of a million people are left without high speed service so what is your point?
My point is that routing the Windsor line through Hamilton preludes high speed rail from ever reaching Kitchener. If it goes through Kitchener, another line can still go through Hamilton without unnecessary duplication.

Pearson should not be a high priority for connecting to the high speed rail line. If people are interested in high speed connections from airport to airport they will fly. There are numerous high speed air flights between each of these cities. If the train is not connecting concentrated urban center to concentrated urban center it serves no purpose and will fail. The airline industry is an extremely powerful market driven force. It will do everything possible to compete with this high speed train line. As a business traveler that often commutes between these four cities I will not take the train unless it connects me directly where I need to go in each city (the business center).
The reason I mention Pearson is because many airports in Europe are connected to high speed rail networks. I'm not talking about connections from airport to airport, it's much more complex than that. Short hop flights have been reduced drastically in Europe where high speed rail lines have taken all the business. Basically instead of taking a short flight to a hub airport, they take the train and fly from there. For example, when someone in Ottawa wants to fly somewhere that doesn't have flights out of Ottawa Airport, they fly to Pearson (or maybe Trudeau) and take the flight from there. With a high speed rail line they'd take the train directly to Pearson instead. By the same token, if I want to go to Lyon I might fly to Paris and take the train from there.

Incorrect. The best bang for the buck would to be to set up Kitchener with conventional GO service and work from there. The city has not yet carved out a market for commuting using train services.
I'd say Kitchener is a bit far for GO trains - it's better suited for intercity trains. Hamilton is much closer and more appropriate for commuter rail or regional rail. But again, the best setup IMO would be two separate lines - a Niagara line going through Hamilton and a Windsor line going through Kitchener.

I thought that there was in the plans for a high-speed line from Pearson Airport to Union Station called “Blue 22”?
AKAIK, Blue22 was cancelled and an EA is going on to determine the best mode for transit to Pearson. The Weston residents group wants a real transit line that stops in neighbourhoods on the way, like a regional rail line. For the reasons I mentioned above, if we're going to build a high speed rail network to compete with flying, it's important to connect major hub airports like Pearson.

[HAMRetrofit]

Kitchener could be connected to the system through Hamilton instead of running two duplicitous networks. It only makes economic sense to run the high speed service along the electrified GO line. Kitchener first needs to be serviced with conventional GO train service since it has become a major part of the GTA commuter shed. The city has yet to prove that it is amenable to such rail services. This would not preclude Kitchener as a future destination for high speed rail.

North Americans will not be as amenable to high speed rail as the Europeans. I again state my case about this system connecting the cores of our urban centers over airports. Hub airports like London and Hamilton will lobby heavily against the system if it is conceived as a method to reduce connecting flights. These airports are trying to conduct business might I remind you.

[markbarbera]

The high speed rail line will be a direct competitor to airports like Pearson and Dorval, and the airports will not want to be served by it. In fact they would vigourously fight any attempt to include these airports on this line. The line will be designed to connect Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto via their downtowns.

The best scenario possible for Hamilton is service via an Aldershot stop, and K-W's best scenario is connecting GO/VIA service from Aldershot station.

[Mister F]

^It won't be as much of a competitor as you think. You might find this interesting:

"While it would seem that HSR and airlines would be in competition in certain markets, there exists many opportunities for coordination and cooperation.

The Union of International Railways notes that "the advantages of the train when compared with planes are especially strong when travel times lie below 3 hours and distances under 800 km/h (sic) [480 miles], but rail-air complementarity really starts to come into its own when the rail journey section is combined with a medium or long-haul flight."15 A Lufthansa passenger can check in air baggage at the Stuttgart rail station, and take the 1h30m train trip to connect with a Lufthansa flight departing from Frankfurt. The European railway system feeds into the airlines' hub as another spoke. This enables the airlines to concentrate on more profitable longer haul and international flights."

http://lomaprieta.sierraclub.org/HighSpeedRail.html

Kitchener could be connected to the system through Hamilton instead of running two duplicitous networks. It only makes economic sense to run the high speed service along the electrified GO line. Kitchener first needs to be serviced with conventional GO train service since it has become a major part of the GTA commuter shed. The city has yet to prove that it is amenable to such rail services. This would not preclude Kitchener as a future destination for high speed rail.
It wouldn't be two duplicitous networks. One line would serve Hamilton, Niagara, and Buffalo, and the other would serve Pearson and southwestern Ontario. Hell, the Niagara line could even get built before the SW Ontario line. There's no reason that GO transit should be a precursor to high speed rail. That was exactly my point earlier - Kitchener's better suited to intercity rail than commuter rail.

So your proposal is to have the line to Windsor go through Hamilton with a spur line from Hamilton to Kitchener. Any future Niagara/Buffalo line would go to Hamilton as well, essentially making Hamilton the hub of the system. That makes no sense. First, there absolutely should be some kind of rail service between Kitchener and Hamilton, that I agree with (transportation between those two cities is awful), but most intercity passengers in Kitchener are going to Toronto, not Hamilton. Same thing with passengers form Niagara Region or Buffalo. Not only that, but your proposal leaves out Pearson altogether (more on that later). Toronto is the logical hub of the system, and it's where the lines should meet, not Hamilton.

North Americans will not be as amenable to high speed rail as the Europeans. I again state my case about this system connecting the cores of our urban centers over airports. Hub airports like London and Hamilton will lobby heavily against the system if it is conceived as a method to reduce connecting flights. These airports are trying to conduct business might I remind you.
No need to make this a competition of city cores versus airports. Both can and should be served. I think you're wrong about North Americans not being amenable to rail. If it's a superior mode of travel, people will use it.

London and Hamilton aren't hub airports. It's a hub and spoke system, and the hubs are Toronto, Montreal, etc. London and Hamilton are spokes. Passenger rail is the ideal form of transport over distances of a few hundred km. It's just as fast and more efficient, safe, clean, reliable, and convenient than air travel. High speed rail is can reduce greenhouse gases by huge amounts, according to the 1998 Lynx study, by 20%. Think about it, 20%, entirely through big reductions in driving and flying. It's ridiculous there are so many flights on routes like Ottawa-Montreal.

Edit: Here's something else I foudn WRT railways and airlines cooperating, and it's a great idea. From an editorial in the Montreal Gazette:

Airlines and politicians are legitimately worried about the risk of destabilizing the fragile Canadian air transport system. The way out of this problem is not for lobbyists to block high-speed rail, but rather for airlines to negotiate favorable terms for using high-speed trains to transport passengers bearing airline tickets. This is common practice in Western Europe and of benefit to traveller and airline alike.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000443

[Cambridgite]

Kitchener first needs to be serviced with conventional GO train service since it has become a major part of the GTA commuter shed.

A major part? Last time I checked, Kitchener was on the fringes of the GTA commutershed.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/data/sprawl/sprawl06.htm

"Census data reveal that Toronto and Peel Region lure 6,505 commuters from Waterloo Region.

Toronto and Peel send 1,485 commuters to Waterloo Region."

Given we have a labour force of about 250,000, that doesn't sound like a major part to me. You can also look at it through the perspective of what percentage of the people working in the GTA live in Waterloo Region. I would think that they are the exception to the rule. And it's still regarded as extreme commuting.

Despite this, there are probably enough commuters in absolute volume to warrant a limited service GO train with relatively few and distant stops west of Georgetown. One issue I see is the travel time. A: The GO train is slow and needs to be electrified. B: If the GO-train is also stopping in Guelph, Rockwood, and Acton, that also compromises the speed of the trip, which would probably take 2 hours or more.

The city has yet to prove that it is amenable to such rail services. This would not preclude Kitchener as a future destination for high speed rail.

You're right, but Hamilton isn't well served by rail either, so how do you know it's amenable? That's the same mentality that says, "transit won't work here, we are a city of drivers so let's just widen the roads and not change how we do things". Believe me, it's been said before.

[Jon Dalton]

The best scenario possible for Hamilton is service via an Aldershot stop, and K-W's best scenario is connecting GO/VIA service from Aldershot station.
I doubt there would ever be a high speed stop at Aldershot because it's too close to Toronto. The train would barely have time to accelerate. Hamiltonians will just have to bite it and take the VIA to London or Toronto.

[HAMRetrofit]

A major part? Last time I checked, Kitchener was on the fringes of the GTA commutershed.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/data/sprawl/sprawl06.htm

"Census data reveal that Toronto and Peel Region lure 6,505 commuters from Waterloo Region.

This is compounding a major problem. Kitchener, Guelph, and the sprawling towns in Halton all have growing commuter bases that are heavily congesting the 401 every weekday morning and evening. This is the major freight shipment route into the GTA and Canada. It is causing unacceptable shipment delays in the city. Something needs to be done about this. Kitchener needs GO service to get these drivers off the roads. Put them on buses, trains, or horse and buggy I don't care. Get them off the road.


You're right, but Hamilton isn't well served by rail either, so how do you know it's amenable? That's the same mentality that says, "transit won't work here, we are a city of drivers so let's just widen the roads and not change how we do things". Believe me, it's been said before.

Hamilton is already served by GO train. Rail travel there already works. It is the most logical hub since it is situated in between Niagara and Kitchener. It is also receiving an electrified line via the Lakeshore line. This will be the likely corridor for the high speed intercity rail line. It is already more heavily populated and much more heavily traveled. The major stations would obviously be in Toronto and Montreal.

What will likely be built is high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal with electrified spurs to Ottawa and Hamilton. I doubt this project will ever extend all the way down to Windsor. Its expansion will depend on how successful the Toronto to Montreal route is.

[Cambridgite]

This is compounding a major problem. Kitchener, Guelph, and the sprawling towns in Halton all have growing commuter bases that are heavily congesting the 401 every weekday morning and evening. This is the major freight shipment route into the GTA and Canada. It is causing unacceptable shipment delays in the city. Something needs to be done about this. Kitchener needs GO service to get these drivers off the roads. Put them on buses, trains, or horse and buggy I don't care. Get them off the road.

I've been on the 401 between Cambridge and Milton in both rush hours before. It's really not that bad until you get into Mississauga or you get into Kitchener (401/highway 8 area) going the other way. There is a pretty major lull in between.

The issue with a GO train is that it only serves to bring commuters to downtown Toronto. Most of the people who commute to the GTA do not work downtown, but in suburban regions like Peel and Halton. Until you provide me with data, other than anecdotal evidence, showing how the commuter population (Kitchener->Downtown Toronto) is exploding, I have little reason to believe that a GO-train will solve the traffic woes of the 401. Trucks make up a solid proportion of the traffic on the 401, yet they can't ride the train either.

Explain to me how a downtown with barely any employment growth (Toronto) can continue to be the destination for just about every new house being built in the vast area of Southern Ontario, when most of the employment growth is happening in outer areas.

I think GO transit needs to change its approach as the influence of downtown Toronto is waning. Rather than only being a park and ride, it should connect downtown areas together and try to influence land use. If a GO-train ran from downtown Kitchener and also had a reverse service, it would make it a lot more accessible and could encourage new office developments downtown, rather than at highway exits. GO buses could connect suburban locations together. For example, Waterloo Region could be connected to Guelph, Halton, and Peel Regions through GO busses, providing a connection between transit systems that are seen as separate entities.

Hamilton is already served by GO train. Rail travel there already works. It is the most logical hub since it is situated in between Niagara and Kitchener. It is also receiving an electrified line via the Lakeshore line. This will be the likely corridor for the high speed intercity rail line. It is already more heavily populated and much more heavily traveled. The major stations would obviously be in Toronto and Montreal.

Yeah, while it's a logical hub, you have to create a new track if you want to run service between Hamilton and Kitchener. Check it out on Google Maps. There's no track to service that route. I still think two lines make more sense when the expansion would theoretically take place. Express buses could run between Hamilton and Kitchener. Of course, phase 1 would be Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa.

[Mister F]

What will likely be built is high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal with electrified spurs to Ottawa and Hamilton. I doubt this project will ever extend all the way down to Windsor. Its expansion will depend on how successful the Toronto to Montreal route is.
Ottawa would likely be on the main line and not a spur, at least that's what the last study proposed. Going from Kingston to Ottawa to Montreal is almost as direct as following the St. Lawrence to Montreal, and it adds a million potential riders.

I actually the think that once the first phase is built, people will wonder how they ever got along without it, and future phases will be easy to get approved. I have no doubt that other markets like Hamilton, Kitchener, London, Quebec City, Pearson, and even Buffalo will all compete for the next extension.

a downtown with barely any employment growth (Toronto)
Actually downtown Toronto employment grew by 8000 people last year, and it's been growing steadily for the last 5 years.

[Cambridgite]

Actually downtown Toronto employment grew by 8000 people last year, and it's been growing steadily for the last 5 years.

Yes. But....

A. It's starting from a huge base. Somewhere in the vicinity of 400,000.

B. Compare that to the employment growth experienced in the greater golden horseshoe.

C. There's way more condos being built in downtown Toronto. I'd imagine many of the people working in these new jobs are living downtown or living in suburbs that are closer in.

[HAMRetrofit]

I've been on the 401 between Cambridge and Milton in both rush hours before. It's really not that bad until you get into Mississauga or you get into Kitchener (401/highway 8 area) going the other way. There is a pretty major lull in between.

The 401 is backed up to the escarpment outside Milton most mornings. I used to travel this route once a week to London during rush hour. This is only getting worse. The trucks are backed up for miles causing unnecessary economic and environmental harm.

The issue with a GO train is that it only serves to bring commuters to downtown Toronto. Most of the people who commute to the GTA do not work downtown, but in suburban regions like Peel and Halton. Until you provide me with data, other than anecdotal evidence, showing how the commuter population (Kitchener->Downtown Toronto) is exploding, I have little reason to believe that a GO-train will solve the traffic woes of the 401. Trucks make up a solid proportion of the traffic on the 401, yet they can't ride the train either.

This is the reality that Kitchener commuters need to face. Freight trucks are not going anywhere and they need to access industry. Hamilton GO commuters don't only travel into downtown Toronto they also travel into Oakville, Mississauga, and Etobicoke, and transfer onto local transit. Extending GO transit into Kitchener will make this type of commuting possible for the nearly 7000 persons from Kitchener that are driving to the GTA.

I think GO transit needs to change its approach as the influence of downtown Toronto is waning. Rather than only being a park and ride, it should connect downtown areas together and try to influence land use. If a GO-train ran from downtown Kitchener and also had a reverse service, it would make it a lot more accessible and could encourage new office developments downtown, rather than at highway exits.

Don't quit your day job. Reality does not support this idea. I would not count on downtown Kitchener becoming a destination for reverse commuters from the GTA. The best hope for its survival are loft, condo, and university projects to become a destination for people in Kitchener and maybe some commuters that travel to the GTA. :haha:.

[Cambridgite]

The 401 is backed up to the escarpment outside Milton most mornings. I used to travel this route once a week to London during rush hour. This is only getting worse. The trucks are backed up for miles causing unnecessary economic and environmental harm.

I've never seen that happen before, but I guess you drive the route more often than I do.

This is the reality that Kitchener commuters need to face. Freight trucks are not going anywhere and they need to access industry. Hamilton GO commuters don't only travel into downtown Toronto they also travel into Oakville, Mississauga, and Etobicoke, and transfer onto local transit. Extending GO transit into Kitchener will make this type of commuting possible for the nearly 7000 persons from Kitchener that are driving to the GTA.

That's what I'm saying. GO busses could connect Kitchener with Guelph, Milton, and Mississauga, possibly even Hamilton. GO-train is a maybe, but if it takes 2+ hours because of low speeds and frequent stops, I'm skeptical about how many people will ride it.

Don't quit your day job. Reality does not support this idea. I would not count on downtown Kitchener becoming a destination for reverse commuters from the GTA. The best hope for its survival are loft, condo, and university projects to become a destination for people in Kitchener and maybe some commuters that travel to the GTA. :haha:.

Well, the local busses are packed going into downtown Kitchener, and once we start 5 minute service frequencies into the core, there is only mass transit left as a solution. The problem is that GRT is limited to an arbitrary boundary that is the Region of Waterloo. While I think you're right that few people would travel to downtown Kitchener from the GTA, I'm sure you'd get some riders from Guelph. Don't forget that, in the future, the GO-train will probably be connected to the LRT, making it possible for easy travel to a lot of other destinations as well. It would also help solve the problem of overcrowded Greyhounds dropping off students who are going home to Toronto on weekends. A GO-train has a ton of potential if it is at all competitive with car-travel.

And what are you saying? Development in Kitchener should be a continuation of the status-quo? Are you failing to see the link between transportation infrastructure and land-use? Accessibility is an important consideration and I'd much rather see the downtowns of second-tier cities become major business hubs, rather than being neglected for the presitige of the exit ramp. Places like Mississauga and North York (along the subway) have pulled "downtowns" out of their asses, so why can't we use a major regional commuter rail system to intensify existing downtowns other than Toronto's? Cities like Kitchener and Hamilton obviously wouldn't be served as well as Toronto, but it would leave us with something to build on.