[Hankster]

I'd like to introduce you to ULTra PRT (Personal Rapid Transit). It's a rapid transit system developed in the UK that I think has tremendous promise. It should be relatively low cost, highly efficient, and offers the closest thing I've seen yet to combine the convenience of a car with a rapid transit system. Take a look at this website and this video, and try to imagine your city with such a system. Wow! The first system will be operational at London Heathrow airport later this year and construction cost is anticipated to be between an affordable $10 Million to $15 Million per mile. The system is electrical and the inside dimension of the pathways is only 1.6 meters (5 feet wide).

Ultra Personal Rapid Transit Movie (http://www.ultraprt.com/ultra-fin-web-h264.mov)

ULTra PRT Website (http://www.atsltd.co.uk/)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/HankBrackin/Nashville/Ultra1.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/HankBrackin/Nashville/Ultra2.jpg

[Down_Under_the_El]

Looks awesome.. How is $10-15 million per mile compare to light rail or rapid transit? and what is it going to connect Heathrow to?

[Okstate]

ummm... how is this just now getting on the transporation thread? This is amazing.

[Saddle Man]

/\/\/\/\/\ This idea is not new, it's been around for a long time.

[Rufus]

Morgantown, West Virginia already has one.

[northbay]

^ yes, prt has been around. this looks interesting tho

[Swede]

For a PRT system to have the convenience of the car it'd have to go on EVERY street and be able to stop at every building on the way. Not gonna happen. I just don't see it working like some think it will.

[Justin10000]

Man. These guys never give up.

PRT has been around for a while now, with today's technology, it's not possible to build a system in that prcie range.

[northbay]

For a PRT system to have the convenience of the car it'd have to go on EVERY street and be able to stop at every building on the way. Not gonna happen.

well, i dont think it needs to be as convenient as a car

even "regular" mass transit doesnt do that

but ur right, since prt utilizes individual carriages, it should take u closer to ur destination faster than a regular form of mass transit...and that means more investment into (a totally new form of) infrastructure...and that means prob not gonna happen.

[d_jeffrey]

well, i dont think it needs to be as convenient as a car

even "regular" mass transit doesnt do that

but ur right, since prt utilizes individual carriages, it should take u closer to ur destination faster than a regular form of mass transit...and that means more investment into (a totally new form of) infrastructure...and that means prob not gonna happen.

And just thing of the maintenance costs for all of these cars...

[SnyderBock]

This is a perfect, "final destination" rapid transit. You have the heavy rail, commuter rail and light rail systems funneling people into downtown to each cities version of a Central, or Union (type) Station.

Then, to get people to their downtown destinations, many cities are considering streetcars. Obvious negatives are that streetcars add to traffic congestion. They also string overhead wire canopies all over the place and that is not attractive.

PRT has the potential to add a new layer of density to a city core transportation grid. It has the potential (if constructed correctly) to be an attractive feature in the city. Last but not least, it would be computer automated and could feasibly be designed on a two-block grid system - thus taking passengers to within two blocks or less of their destination. Eventually, it may be as simple as getting into the car and saying your destination and advanced voice recognition systems identifying and confirming the destination and taking you there (like the taxi's in Total Recall). But for now, a touch screen map will work fine.

[kitchener-lrt]

I doubt that this will ever be successful. I'd assume that for this system, there are stations just like rapid transit. Unless PRT will have stations at every single building, like Swede mentioned, it'll just be another form of Rapid Transit.

[texcolo]

It'll run from the terminal to the parking garage.

http://www.atsltd.co.uk/images/pics/30.jpg

[Cirrus]

PRT is an old concept. It hasn’t caught on despite being thrown around transit circles for decades because the idea doesn’t work.

PRT mixes the efficiency of automobiles with the convenience of transit, which is to say it is neither efficient nor convenient. It only works if you have a small population moving between a small number of compact nodes, and in that case it’s too expensive to justify the relatively paltry ridership that small populations support.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. The wheel works fine already. Let's spend our money on things that actually function.

[Deez]

^Couldn't have said it better myself. I can't believe how much interest PRT still manages to garner (even in research circles). The whole concept is completely infeasible.

[Hankster]

This is a perfect, "final destination" rapid transit. You have the heavy rail, commuter rail and light rail systems funneling people into downtown to each cities version of a Central, or Union (type) Station.

Then, to get people to their downtown destinations, many cities are considering streetcars. Obvious negatives are that streetcars add to traffic congestion. They also string overhead wire canopies all over the place and that is not attractive.

PRT has the potential to add a new layer of density to a city core transportation grid. It has the potential (if constructed correctly) to be an attractive feature in the city. Last but not least, it would be computer automated and could feasibly be designed on a two-block grid system - thus taking passengers to within two blocks or less of their destination. Eventually, it may be as simple as getting into the car and saying your destination and advanced voice recognition systems identifying and confirming the destination and taking you there (like the taxi's in Total Recall). But for now, a touch screen map will work fine.

I'm in agreement with you. This system IS projected to cost $10 to $15 Million per mile at Heathrow, so I think the naysayers are wrong on this. Let's see if the Heathrow project comes in at or near budget, and see how the public likes it. I think it will be a hit if the advertised wait for a car is as short as ULTra predicts (simulations show an average wait of only 15 seconds for a car). I think the best use for such a transportation system is as you describe. It's sort of like a taxi service at much lower cost.

[Swede]

^For airports and such it can work, but as a general system for a whole city... I seriously doubt it. At the airport the number of destinations/starting points is limited and traffic between these is fairly high. At a smaller airport PRT is probably the best solution, but at a large one (say, O'Hare or Heathrow) larger cars running often would IMO be a better bet (with the cars running on demand, like PRT, at times when demand is low).

[Justin10000]

I'm in agreement with you. This system IS projected to cost $10 to $15 Million per mile at Heathrow, so I think the naysayers are wrong on this. Let's see if the Heathrow project comes in at or near budget, and see how the public likes it. I think it will be a hit if the advertised wait for a car is as short as ULTra predicts (simulations show an average wait of only 15 seconds for a car). I think the best use for such a transportation system is as you describe. It's sort of like a taxi service at much lower cost.

http://www.lardlad.com/assets/episodes/season4/9f10-big.jpg

What else is there to say about PRT?

[SnyderBock]

I'm in agreement with you. This system IS projected to cost $10 to $15 Million per mile at Heathrow, so I think the naysayers are wrong on this. Let's see if the Heathrow project comes in at or near budget, and see how the public likes it. I think it will be a hit if the advertised wait for a car is as short as ULTra predicts (simulations show an average wait of only 15 seconds for a car). I think the best use for such a transportation system is as you describe. It's sort of like a taxi service at much lower cost.

To be successful, I think the cars need to be highly automated and advanced technologically. I also think the stops need to be off the mainline, to allow passing cars. Each off-line station would have cars and passengers would board the car in the front of the line. When coming into a station, the car would join the end of the line.

Doing this, there theoretically should not be a wait time - so 15 seconds is doable. an airport will be a good testing ground for this.

While PRT has been around for a while, it has never been done right. So critics can argue it's been done and doesn't work, or that it's not feasible. But it could also be argued that this is different than anything ever done, so you can't compare it. On the other hand, for it to work for an entire downtown, it would need to be a complete 2-block grid system. At least 1-mile x 1/2-mile, 2-block grid system.

[Hankster]

To be successful, I think the cars need to be highly automated and advanced technologically. I also think the stops need to be off the mainline, to allow passing cars. Each off-line station would have cars and passengers would board the car in the front of the line. When coming into a station, the car would join the end of the line.

Doing this, there theoretically should not be a wait time - so 15 seconds is doable. an airport will be a good testing ground for this.

While PRT has been around for a while, it has never been done right. So critics can argue it's been done and doesn't work, or that it's not feasible. But it could also be argued that this is different than anything ever done, so you can't compare it. On the other hand, for it to work for an entire downtown, it would need to be a complete 2-block grid system. At least 1-mile x 1/2-mile, 2-block grid system.

I agree with all you are saying. Technology is such now that a system like this has a much greater chance of success than ever before. And I agree about your assessment of what it would take to work in a downtown. I would love to see something like this planned into some of these mega "new city" projects, but the Heathrow project and others would have to be a huge success for that to happen.

[zaphod]

I already got a manually piloted PRT vehicle;)

Factor out the guideway and I see these as little driverless taxis. Now maybe that's a worthwhile concept for a private business in the future when self-driving road vehicle technology is matured...

[Cirrus]

Even if this *does* beat the odds and work, it will be a temporary victory. The second driverless cars hit the market it will be cheaper, easier and more efficient to run driverless taxis out of station-like neighborhood cabstands.

[SnyderBock]

Even if this *does* beat the odds and work, it will be a temporary victory. The second driverless cars hit the market it will be cheaper, easier and more efficient to run driverless taxis out of station-like neighborhood cabstands.

True, but talking about people and laws permitting driver-less vehicles on the road seems for less feasible than this technology. There are drivers license laws and insurance issues which stand in the way of driver-less vehicles on our streets. Plus there is public acceptance and the issue whether people will put their lives and safety in the hands of non-fixed guild-way automated vehicles. Plus, they wouldn't relieve congestion of the streets, but add to it.

[brickell]

What about security issues with something this small. It's a common complaint in Miami with the people mover system. A lot of people just don't feel safe at night when you're on the thing by yourself or with 1 or 2 other people.

[SnyderBock]

What about security issues with something this small. It's a common complaint in Miami with the people mover system. A lot of people just don't feel safe at night when you're on the thing by yourself or with 1 or 2 other people.

That's what the 2nd Amendment is for.

[kool maudit]

even if you carry a gun, being placed in a position where you'd have to use it is still sort of unsafe.

i'd prefer to not have to get in gun battles on the train, even if the odds favoured my victory.

[SnyderBock]

Just having the gun, often means you can overt conflict. If you get into a gun fight, you were probably about to die anyway. Security is mostly up to each individual to provide for themselves. To give up freedoms for a faults sense of security is taking freedom for granted. What do you propose be done for security? On board, automated stun-guns; cameras wired directly to law enforcement? There are options available to add to security, but personal defense is probably the biggest deterrent or defense from violent attacks.

[fugacious224488]

well aren't these things supposed to be individual...they only go where you want to go, so you would be either by yourself or with a group of friends going to a specific place... you couldn't "share" with random people, as far as I understand.

I think it is a good idea, however They would need to add tons of stops...so for already huge cities like NY or Paris, I think the subway is still best.

[zilfondel]

Vaporware!

Examples??

[Hankster]

What about security issues with something this small. It's a common complaint in Miami with the people mover system. A lot of people just don't feel safe at night when you're on the thing by yourself or with 1 or 2 other people.

This system is different from a people mover system. When the car arrives, you tell the system where you want to go, and it takes you there nonstop. Because of that, nearly every ride will involve only people who know each other that are going to the same destination. I don't think security issues will be a big deal with ULTra PRT.