[miketoronto]

Some great news from Kingston, Ontario. This shows small cities can improve transit service and ridership. Kingston is a small city of about 55,000 people in the core town, and a metro pop of about 100,000.

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http://www.octa.on.ca/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=20&Topic=1671

Transit use increases; Service improvements, advertising campaign help fill seats: Official
Posted By Frank Armstrong
Updated 10 hours ago
More people took public transportation in Kingston last year than ever before, according to figures released by Kingston Transit yesterday.

Kingston Transit claims the 7.5-per-cent increase, which bumped the total ridership number to 3.5 million trips over the course of 2007, is due to service improvements.

Preston Schiller, a public transportation expert who lectures at Queen's University's School of Urban and Regional Planning, said a 7.5-per-cent increase in ridership is impressive.

"There are probably many similar-sized cities across Canada and the United States that would love to see that sort of increase in one year," Schiller said yesterday.

Paula Nichols, the city's manager of transit and parking, attributed the rise in ridership to increased awareness of Kingston Transit as well as several service improvements, including putting more buses on the road.

An advertising campaign launched last year, called My Ride - which alerted residents to an increase in service frequency, more direct cross-city routes and extended service hours - also helped, Nichols said.

Kingston Transit added wheelchair accessibility to two bus routes, instituted a bike rack program on all city buses, and put four more buses on the roads Saturdays and Sundays by buying a new bus and reducing the number of spares.

My Ride essentially promised riders a friendlier, more responsive and rider-focused transit system.

With up to 40 per cent of riders being Queen's University and St. Lawrence College students, Kingston Transit has provided some specific routes to meet their needs, Nichols said.

The institutions' student organizations were consulted to help determine the transportation needs of students. Likewise, community consultations were conducted amongst riders in general, non-riders and bus drivers, she said.

Queen's students also now receive a 12-month bus pass, which is included in the cost of their tuition fees. Nichols said Kingston was one of the first communities to institute such a program.

"Our key concern is having a service that is convenient and reliable," Nichols said. "If we don't have a convenient service, it's pretty tough to get people out of their cars."

Kingston Transit bosses are hoping to get even more people to take the bus by introducing more improvements in May, which still have to be approved by council.

Kingston Transit wants to expand the park-and-ride lot on Montreal Street, north of Highway 401, and increase the frequency of bus service there. It also hopes to increase the number of buses operating on Princess Street at peak afternoon times.

Two new buses, which have already been approved by council, will also be added to the city's fleet of 43 this year.

Concern for the environment may have played some role in increasing ridership, Nichols said.

"I think the public awareness of the greenhouse-gas emissions emitted through passenger vehicles certainly helped people's awareness about other transportation choices, such as Kingston Transit," she said.

Schiller, an adjunct professor at Queen's, said he doubts the rising cost of gasoline has much impact on whether people choose public transit.

"That may become a big factor in the future, but the marginal cost of driving is still pretty cheap," he said. "We are going to have to have a much higher gasoline price before people start to leave the car at home and take the bus."

The large aging population may be having an effect, he said, pointing out that elderly people tend to drive less and depend more on alternate transportation.

According to Kingston Transit, adults in Kingston are riding the bus more often. There was an eight-per-cent increase in adult ridership in 2007, with 105,000 more adults taking the bus.

There is also a huge segment of the population that isn't old enough to drive and they, too, are taking public transit, Schiller said.

According to Kingston Transit, youth riders rode the bus 71,700 more times in 2007 than in 2006 - an increase of 25 per cent.

However, ridership growth is not occurring everywhere, Schiller said. That's because the popularity of public transportation greatly depends on convenience and ease of use.

He said Kingston could probably improve ridership even more so by following the example of Boulder, Colo., a similar-sized city that has a large university.

"There are several ways of [increasing ridership] and one that I happen to think is very important is to think of what are your key core routes and [consider if] those routes can be made a little more frequent or a little more straightened out," he said.

In Boulder, public transportation use doubled when the municipality dramatically increased and improved its routes as well as service frequency, he said.

Boulder improved routes from the university campus and consulted extensively with the university and the community. It also lowered fares and made transit passes easier to obtain, Schiller said.

Kingston Transit users approached yesterday at the bus terminal at Brock and Montreal streets said they take the bus because they don't drive.

Erin Allen doesn't yet have a driver's licence and takes the bus to her sales job at the Bay, to the gym and to friends' houses.

Allen said public transportation is an efficient and convenient way to get around.

"I have no problems with the bus," Allen said. "My route is very easy."

John Bauder was returning home from a doctor's appointment and takes the bus several times a week.

He has used public transit in Kingston for 20 years and said he's happy with the service, which has put a lot more buses on the road in two decades.

"[The bus comes] every half hour," Bauder said. "You can't get much better than that."

If she had licence, Karen Fricker said she would avoid the bus because it takes her too long to get places.

"I think the routes are too long," Fricker said, adding she would like to see more direct routes. "There's no route that goes down Concession [Street], which is a major street."

farmstrong@thewhig.com

[Cambridgite]

According to Statscan, the CMA population of Kingston is actually 152,358 but I'll forgive ya. ;)

Good news for Kingston! Guelph Transit needs to listen up. I have to wonder though, what the service was like before. One of the routes operated every 30 minutes and the one lady said "it doesn't get much better than that". That's the same frequency as most of the neighborhood feeder routes for GRT.

Speaking of which, I know GRT's ridership has grown a lot in the past 5 years too. But that kind of growth is a much bigger deal for Kingston, since their population isn't growing nearly as fast. Why is it that smaller cities are doing a better job at increasing transit use than big cities like Vancouver?

[GreatTallNorth2]

It is good to hear Canada's smaller cities increasing ridership, and growth is not limited to Kingston. I hear that Grand River Transit is increasing it's ridership too. I was glad when I heard that because it proves that transit is strong and vibrant even in Canada's small cities. If the Waterloo region can start to build density or even tall buildings (3 stories and higher would be tall for this area), then ridership would greatly increase.

[kitchener-lrt]

I was glad when I heard that because it proves that transit is strong and vibrant even in Canada's small cities.
Not to be rude, but KW isn't really one of Canada's small cities :P.

If the Waterloo region can start to build density or even tall buildings (3 stories and higher would be tall for this area), then ridership would greatly increase.

I agree that density is a big factor of transit ridership. Waterloo Region already has medium/high density buildings (10+ stories), and has many many more planned/under construction (check out the Waterloo Region section).

[vid]

To compare:

Sudbury has 157,000 people and ridership of 3.7 million... That is 23.6 rides per person. (10,140 riders daily)
Kingston has 117,000 people and ridership of 3.5 million... That is 29.9 rides per person. (9,590 riders daily)
Thunder Bay has 109,000 people and ridership of 3.3 million... That is 30.3 rides per person. (9,040 riders daily)

You still have room for improvement. What is your exact service area? Thunder Bay Transit covers the city and neighbouring reserve but leaves out some some rural areas so it's service area is closer to just 100,000. I think Sudbury's is somewhere around 130,000 people. I used Kingston's city population but there are probably very rural places inside the municipality that lack service and wouldn't really count.

Neighbourhood routes here are also 30 minutes, so that seems to be average for cities in the 100,000 to 250,000 range for Ontario. Busier routes are every 15 minutes. Used to be every 10 minutes for the mainline but it got knocked down to 30 minutes. :( I would assume Kingston Transit has a few routes that are 15 or 10 minute frequencies.

(note: this was a very hard post for me. :()

[softee]

Kingston transit serves a city population of over 100,000 though right?

North Bay transit has also seen it's ridership growing over the last several years, in 2006 the number of boardings stood at 2,574,547, which serves a population of 54,000.

[vid]

54,000 people and ridership of 2.574547 million... That is 47.7 rides per person. (7,050 riders daily).

Pretty good. :)

TTC - 2,500,000 people and ridership of 444,544,000 - 177.8 rides per person or 1,217,930 riders daily.

[miketoronto]

VID,
Why did the Mainline route have its service cut so bad?

[vid]

The population along the route dropped by more than 45%, and the bus trips fell below the 20 riders at any time criteria they set for the route. (It's now back up to that, and peaks at 50 during rush hours) It was no longer needed to run that frequently when the realignment in the mid 90s resulted in 6 buses between cores, and the interlining system could pose problems if buses are running more frequently.

What they should do is have an express bus between terminals that makes one stop at Intercity. Most people that take the mainline these days are making that trip, so it would make sense to have a bus for that purpose. The suburban branches of Mainline can be designated as 5 Westfort and 10 Current River or something.

Also, 3 Memorial was changed from 20 minute frequency during off peak to 40 minutes, which is odd seeing as there are now more people in its service area than before? TBTransit has poor leadership though. They need to get professionals in and fix up the system. Even the drivers are getting pissed off. Transfer points are almost impossible to meet these days with the increased ridership and traffic, and buses on a few routes get too full at times without any backup to relieve that. They have to stop retiring buses and increase the fleet.

[miketoronto]

Thanks for the info VID. Why did the pop go down so much? I guess the Crosstown is now the busiest route in the system, as it operates every 15min.

Do you small Ontario city residents know how good we have it here? There are many American cities with a million people or more who do not have a bus route operating every 15min all day long :)

Also about North Bay. They have a very successfull U-PASS program if I remember right. And that helped boast ridership a lot.

This stat is a little old. But the following stats are from CUTA on systems serving populations under 100,000.

In 2003, CUTA’s smaller conventional systems carried almost 17 million riders or an average of over 17 rides per capita served. The smaller systems with the highest per-capita ridership in 2003 were:

• Whistler and Valley Express Transit (Resort Municipality of Whistler, B.C.) — 301 rides per capita, a figure partly due to use by tourists who can outnumber residents four-to-one at peak times (see profile, inset)

• North Bay Transit (City of North Bay, Ont.) — 45 rides per capita (see profile, inset)

• Cornwall Transit (City of Cornwall, Ont.) — 29 rides per capita

• Kootenay Boundary Transit (Kootenay Boundary Regional District, B.C.) — 27 rides per capita

[vid]

The population went down as people moved to the suburbs. 3 Memorial is the busiest. Crosstown goes along the outer suburbs and serves the university and college. It gets busy but isn't the busiest. Memorial is every 15 minutes, and also has branch routes. It has a 15 minute frequency out into the suburbs. Crosstown is only every 15 minutes during school months and weekdays as well, while Memorial is 15 minutes Monday to Saturday.

Thunder Bay just instituted a U-PASS system. It was controversial but seems to be working, I've noticed more college age people using it.

[miketoronto]

Does Thunder Bay Transit carry mostly poor people. Or does it carry some people who just decide to own one car for the family or not own a car at all?

[kitchener-lrt]

Transfer points are almost impossible to meet these days with the increased ridership and traffic, and buses on a few routes get too full at times without any backup to relieve that. They have to stop retiring buses and increase the fleet.

Oh, i've got a solution to that. Reduce frequencies from 30 minutes to 40 minutes (if 30 minutes is your main frequency)! That's the best solution that you can do, only to find out that it's the stupidest thing you've ever done.
Yes I'm looking at you Guelph:rolleyes: .

Thunder Bay needs to change their route planners.

[Cambridgite]

The population went down as people moved to the suburbs.

Still, 45% is a massive drop and is obviously way too much to just be the result of shrinking household sizes. People here move from the inner city/inner suburbs to the outer suburbs, but there's always people coming in to buy up the homes that the previous owners moved out of.

Seriously, if you have that much abandonment in TBay, city council should not be approving new subdivisions at all. That shit is going to kill your city and its infrastructure.

[Cambridgite]

Not to be rude, but KW isn't really one of Canada's small cities :P.

Depends from what angle you look at it. It's mid-sized to somewhat large by Canadian standards, but it's tiny on the world stage.

[Cambridgite]

If the Waterloo region can start to build density or even tall buildings (3 stories and higher would be tall for this area), then ridership would greatly increase.

Ha...ha...ha

[vid]

Does Thunder Bay Transit carry mostly poor people. Or does it carry some people who just decide to own one car for the family or not own a car at all?

A large amount of people are elderly, students, disabled or without vehicles/licenses (like myself) though a lot of them would probably fit into the poor bracket, it isn't all poor people using it. If you live on a bus route and near downtown it's pretty convenient for a small city service.

Oh, i've got a solution to that. Reduce frequencies from 30 minutes to 40 minutes (if 30 minutes is your main frequency)! That's the best solution that you can do, only to find out that it's the stupidest thing you've ever done.
Yes I'm looking at you Guelph:rolleyes: .

Thunder Bay needs to change their route planners.

LOL! They do. And yes, Guelph Transit is completely stupid for shortening the frequency, especially in a growing city. Like Kingston, Guelph has a definite urban-suburban divide in its council, and the suburbs usually win. Guelph's south end and Kingson's west end are sprawling suburbs. Thunder Bay isn't too bad, though. The city is so decentralized that we don't have a downtown or suburbs, its a fairly consistent density and mix until you get to rural areas. We just need to make it denser. Stop building new suburban areas, especially in the south, unless they'll agree to have a bus route.

Still, 45% is a massive drop and is obviously way too much to just be the result of shrinking household sizes. People here move from the inner city/inner suburbs to the outer suburbs, but there's always people coming in to buy up the homes that the previous owners moved out of.

Seriously, if you have that much abandonment in TBay, city council should not be approving new subdivisions at all. That shit is going to kill your city and its infrastructure.

Most of the neighbourhoods in that area are poor, and largely home to single people and seniors. That 45% drop really isn't that much when you consider that only about 7,000 people live along this route. It's largely commercial/industrial. Most of the homes being sold in this neighbourhood aren't near the route, they're near 3 Memorial and 12 East End. The corridor along Simpson Street (1 Mainline) is actually quite stable. Additionally, this was a much denser neighbourhood up until the 80s. A lot of large families as it was mainly first or second generation European immigrants. Their many children have moved while they stayed, and many of the apartments along the main street are now vacant. The population is slightly increasing though.

Suburbanization is hurting the city, but they have plans to get transit out in those areas. The main problem is they do it with referendums instead of just forcing it. They wanted to institute rural/suburban bus routes but the people living in that area voted it down. Additionally there is the money issue. Rural areas already pay more taxes and higher water fees (They have to pay for the infrastructure. Thunder Bay is really quite a tight wad city) which is probably why the turned down transit in the first place.

Abandonment isn't actually that big a problem. There are only a handful of abandoned houses in the neighbourhood (on this city of the CP line anyway, but only this side is served by 1 Mainline) and several of them have recently been fixed up. One down the street from me is turning out very nice, expected to sell for as much as 160,000$ (which is high for this area).

The mainline really only brushes against the residential part south of Port Arthur, really. Between terminals, it isn't much of a local bus service at all. If you ride it as much as I have you might understand why it isn't as frequent as it once was. Everyone takes the 3 Memorial now.

And 45% isn't that much -- Thunder Bay's population went from 50,000 to 20,000 between 1914 and 1917.

[WaterlooInvestor]

I hear that Grand River Transit is increasing it's ridership too. I was glad when I heard that because it proves that transit is strong and vibrant even in Canada's small cities. If the Waterloo region can start to build density or even tall buildings (3 stories and higher would be tall for this area), then ridership would greatly increase.

I see you're jealous again of all our construction sites and proposals. :haha:

[GreatTallNorth2]

I see you're jealous again of all our construction sites and proposals. :haha:

Jealous of what? When you start building towers taller and more beautiful than One London Place, then I might get jealous. London doesn't seem to go through this proposal stage. They just announce the building and the next day it is under construction. We are building towers while you are proposing.

Anyways, we are far off topic. We were talking about transit in Canada's small cities (Kingston, Kitchener, Kincardine, Stratford, Cambridge, Owen Sound, Waterloo, Tillsonburg, etc.). I am happy for the smaller cities!

[kitchener-lrt]

Anyways, we are far off topic. We were talking about transit in Canada's small cities (Kingston, Kitchener, Kincardine, Stratford, Cambridge, Owen Sound, Waterloo, Tillsonburg, etc.). I am happy for the smaller cities!

Hurray for small cities! You just forgot to include London:P .

[GreatTallNorth2]

Hurray for small cities! You just forgot to include London:P .

The city of London is the 10th largest city in Canada. Let's not turn this into city vs. city thread. We are trying to celebrate Canada's small cities (places like Goderich, Lucknow, Kitchener, Welland, Ingersoll, Waterloo, Collingwood, Cambridge, Leamington, etc.) and their transit ridership.

[kitchener-lrt]

The city of London is the 10th largest city in Canada. Let's not turn this into city vs. city thread. We are trying to celebrate Canada's small cities (places like Goderich, Lucknow, Kitchener, Welland, Ingersoll, Waterloo, Collingwood, Cambridge, Leamington, etc.) and their transit ridership.

I'm not trying to turn this into a city vs. city thread either, but when you compare Kitchener to Leamington, something isn't right. If my information is correct, Kitchener metro population is larger than London's. KW (basically one city) isn't as far behind London in population as you'd like to believe. So if you're celebrating Ontario's 4th (or 5th) largest as small, you might as well add London to that list;) .

BTW, does Lucknow even have a transit system?:P

[feepa]

The city of London is the 10th largest city in Canada. Let's not turn this into city vs. city thread. We are trying to celebrate Ontario's small cities (places like Goderich, Lucknow, Kitchener, Welland, Ingersoll, Waterloo, Collingwood, Cambridge, Leamington, etc.) and their transit ridership.

seeing as I see no mention for other canadian cities outside of Ontario, I fixed the post above

[WaterlooInvestor]

Jealous of what?

That Kitchener-Waterloo is building lofts, yet London's building commie-blocks. :haha:

When you start building towers taller and more beautiful than One London Place, then I might get jealous.

One London Place is 26% vacant! If you took off all the empty space it's really no taller than our Sunlife Tower. :haha:

London doesn't seem to go through this proposal stage. They just announce the building and the next day it is under construction. We are building towers while you are proposing.

Building cheap commie-block apartments are quick and easy. Building condos, such as KW's Bauer Lofts takes much more time, but in the end it's worth it: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/forumdisplay.php?f=297 :)

The city of London is the 10th largest city in Canada. Let's not turn this into city vs. city thread. We are trying to celebrate Canada's small cities (places like Goderich, Lucknow, Kitchener, Welland, Ingersoll, Waterloo, Collingwood, Cambridge, Leamington, etc.) and their transit ridership.

If the Kitchener CMA hasn't already it will soon pass London's CMA in population - you're just one jealous guy. Get used to saying you live in Canada's 11th largest metro.

Since this thread is about transit let's talk about how KW's moving towards joining the big cities in Canada by building a LRT system. London will have good company among the small villages that also don't have a rapid transit system: Rodney, West Lorne, Thamsville and Port Burwell. Maybe you guys can have sleepovers in each other's villages. :jester:

[kitchener-lrt]

Kingston can improve their ridership even more if they boost service to the VIA station. Almost every Queens student I've talked to said that they take the train from either Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal to get to school.

I've heard that taxis can barely keep up with high student demand from the train station to the campus.

[adam-machiavelli]

I agree with you there. From my house to the train station is about 35 minutes by bus (sometimes 2 busses) or 15 minutes by taxi.

[miketoronto]

New Stat from Transport Canada.

15% of riders on Grand River Transit's IXPRESS limited stop bus route, use to use auto based travel before the IXPRESS route was started.

Not bad for a limited stop bus route.

[kitchener-lrt]

New Stat from Transport Canada.

15% of riders on Grand River Transit's IXPRESS limited stop bus route, use to use auto based travel before the IXPRESS route was started.

Not bad for a limited stop bus route.

:cheers: The region's goal of getting people out of their cars is somewhat working. Hopefully this figure improves.
BTW, what's the link to this?

[vid]

This thread almost got derailed here...

I'd like to see that link too, I have a local bus agency I have to send it to. :frog:

[GreatTallNorth2]

One London Place is 26% vacant! If you took off all the empty space it's really no taller than our Sunlife Tower. :haha:


That's probably the funniest thing I have ever read on SSP. First of all, it isn't even close to being true. Have you ever been in OLP? Why on earth do you think it is 26% vacant? It might be 5% vacant, but 26%? If it was 75% vacant, does that decrease the height of the building? It is the tallest office tower in Ontario outside of the city of Toronto. Period! It is in a different league than that of anything in all of Waterloo region and there are many other nice looking tall buildings in London's core. London has a fair share of commie towers, but last time I looked at K/W, it had it's fair share and no buildings that I saw that would rival London's.

Even IF K/W passes London in population in the future, it will still just be several smaller cities in the same area and not one central city.

[vid]

I bet if you took all the empty space out of SunLife tower, it would be shorter than Waverly Tower! Ha!

KW is five times out size but Waverly Tower would still stand out in their skyline. :haha: Duluth is more impressive! (Considering its 100 years older and less than one sixth the size)

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/images/8571.gifhttp://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/images/44358.gifhttp://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/images/44402.gif

Clarica Building (http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=6613) © Anthony Sun / Skyscraper Source Media Inc.
Waverly Park Towers (http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=24419) and Alworth Building (http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=27405) © Vidioman / Skyscraper Source Media Inc.

Our five cities combined (http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?34158011) make one hell of a skyline for a city of only 300,000 people! :tup:

[kitchener-lrt]

Even IF K/W passes London in population in the future, it will still just be several smaller cities in the same area and not one central city.
Kitchener and Waterloo are practically one city, and with talk of amalgamation, that could all change.


I bet if you took all the empty space out of SunLife tower, it would be shorter than Waverly Tower! Ha!


Sunlife is fully occupied:P .

[jeicow]

Queen's students also now receive a 12-month bus pass, which is included in the cost of their tuition fees. Nichols said Kingston was one of the first communities to institute such a program.
I'm willing to bet that this alone is likely respondsible for most of the increase in transit usage. Everyother transit system saw similar increases when they introduced it. From St. Catherines (Brock U), GRT (when Laurier got theirs, and this year with UWaterloo), London (UWO)- and that's just some of Ontario's mid-sized cities. It's not really that big of a surprise really. Considering the fact that 15,5000 students, who make up 40% of the ridership of ~150,000 people (StatsCan doesn't include students)- you begin to realize how residents aren't really the ones running to take the bus.

15% of riders on Grand River Transit's IXPRESS limited stop bus route, use to use auto based travel before the IXPRESS route was started.
That's due more to the fact that the parking crunch at the universities is getting worst and worst, due to the drecreains number of spaces and the huge enrollment increases at both universities. With the start of Engineering 5 @ UW this March (and 7 within a few years) on the East Campus, the parking crunch will only get worst. With a 2nd straight year of record applications at both schools, this number will only keep going up and up.

[vid]

Lakehead is constantly increasing its parking area, its insane. They've destroyed a lot of parkland to do it, too. :(

[Cambridgite]

That's probably the funniest thing I have ever read on SSP. First of all, it isn't even close to being true. Have you ever been in OLP? Why on earth do you think it is 26% vacant? It might be 5% vacant, but 26%? If it was 75% vacant, does that decrease the height of the building? It is the tallest office tower in Ontario outside of the city of Toronto. Period! It is in a different league than that of anything in all of Waterloo region and there are many other nice looking tall buildings in London's core. London has a fair share of commie towers, but last time I looked at K/W, it had it's fair share and no buildings that I saw that would rival London's.

Whatever, London has a better skyline and it has more historical inertia behind its downtown. Move on....

Even IF K/W passes London in population in the future, it will still just be several smaller cities in the same area and not one central city.

Yeah...I guess Ottawa doesn't have a central city because it has Hull and Alymer across the river. Monocentric Calgary is so much bigger :rolleyes:. For your information, most large urban areas are conurbations. Single downtown places like London are more the exception than the rule.

Anyways, enough of this London/KW pissing contest. Let's talk about transit ridership.

[jeicow]

First of all, it isn't even close to being true. Have you ever been in OLP? Why on earth do you think it is 26% vacant? It might be 5% vacant, but 26%?
Go the the Lease website (http://sifton.com/officeleasing/1london). Notice is says the total sqft'age is 356 000. Go onto Leasing Details and add up the total "For Lease" space and then figure out your percentage. But like Cambridgite said- let's move on.

[WaterlooInvestor]

EDIT: jeicow beat me to it. :P

That's probably the funniest thing I have ever read on SSP. First of all, it isn't even close to being true. Have you ever been in OLP? Why on earth do you think it is 26% vacant? It might be 5% vacant, but 26%?

Let's be clear it's everything you have said that isn't even close to being true.

94,782 sq ft of vacant space: http://www.dimensions-ca.com/pmd/stacking.cfm?bldID=2&userRole=2

in a 356,000 sq ft building: http://sifton.com/officeleasing/1london/

= 26.6 % vacant

Having your tallest building that vacant is nothing to be proud of, and yes it does take away from the 'power' of the building.

Even IF K/W passes London in population in the future, it will still just be several smaller cities in the same area and not one central city.

Yeah that's why KW will be building a LRT system because it's such a "small city" initiative. I guess that's why this "small" city is able to bring in the Federal Liberal caucus, the Ontario Liberals, Yo-Yo Ma, Bill Gates, OECD Secretary-General, Bill Clinton, etc. I'm sure I'll be thinking about how "small" KW is when I'm having a beer downtown chatting with cabinet ministers and the Ontario premier this Saturday. :haha:
In terms of built form - going forward our Uptown and Downtown will merge into one large urban district with distinct zones. This process is already happening, and will accelerate in the future.

Sure, when you compare the current skylines, London's is superior. A large reason for this is because when these skylines were built, 1960's-early 90's, KW was a much smaller city. It actually makes sense that the smaller city's skyline turned out 2nd rate. However, by the early 90's things were already starting to change. Now that we're in the 2000's development boom, it's clear KW has more 1st rate developments.

Anyways, enough of this London/KW pissing contest. Let's talk about transit ridership.

I agree. GreatTallNorth2 has been going on a rampage lately: first calling Atlantic Canadians hicks, then once again doing some over-exaggerated bashing of KW, and finally saying Toronto isn't a city worth visiting.

[softee]

Ok, how about this: The Federal Liberals had a caucus meeting in North Bay back in 2003, and we have one of the highest transit ridership rates among all of the smaller cities in Canada, so therefore North Bay is actually a big important city squeezed into small city form!

[GreatTallNorth2]

I agree. GreatTallNorth2 has been going on a rampage lately: first calling Atlantic Canadians hicks, then once again doing some over-exaggerated bashing of KW, and finally saying Toronto isn't a city worth visiting.

Are you cyber stalking me?

[Cambridgite]

Ok, how about this: The Federal Liberals had a caucus meeting in North Bay back in 2003, and we have one of the highest transit ridership rates among all of the smaller cities in Canada, so therefore North Bay is actually a big important city squeezed into small city form!

Yeah, I didn't see how the caucus meeting has anything to do with being a significant city.

[Cambridgite]

Are you cyber stalking me?

No, people just remember things about other forumers. And when you're posting hate all over SSP about other cities (particularly KW in your case), it just makes you look like an insecure jackass. Quit while you're ahead, Troll.

[Justin10000]

That's due more to the fact that the parking crunch at the universities is getting worst and worst, due to the drecreains number of spaces and the huge enrollment increases at both universities. With the start of Engineering 5 @ UW this March (and 7 within a few years) on the East Campus, the parking crunch will only get worst. With a 2nd straight year of record applications at both schools, this number will only keep going up and up.

That makes more sense to me. I do not like to sound negative, but I highly doubt one limited stop bus route will get people out of their cars, unless they really have to.

[kitchener-lrt]

So...Kingston's got some nice buses (trying to change the topic) :P.

[Rathgrith]

Kingston can improve their ridership even more if they boost service to the VIA station. Almost every Queens student I've talked to said that they take the train from either Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal to get to school.

I've heard that taxis can barely keep up with high student demand from the train station to the campus.

Light Rail to the downtown of Kingston anyone? It sure would have helped my trip there last December.

[Justin10000]

I would not mind seeing a streetcar line in Kingston..

[Mordack]

Hey, we did have one in the early 1900's! :P

[SpongeG]

nice

i used to live in the "downtown" and the only way to get where all the malls and shopping was to go by bus

[softee]

^ Kingston has a great downtown, your quotation marks are very curious!

[Halifax Hillbilly]

That makes more sense to me. I do not like to sound negative, but I highly doubt one limited stop bus route will get people out of their cars, unless they really have to.

A BRT express can get people out of their cars if they work downtown and don't have free parking. It also helps to have a huge, free park-and-ride lot at the suburban end.

The Metro-Link in Halifax is a limited stop BRT route that shaves a grand total of about 6 or 7 minutes off of a bus trip downtown yet a good chunk of people that use this service have never taken the bus. It's advertised as a premium service which basically means cushier seats and a higher fare. It is a popular service and ridership is already well above estimates.

The big problem with these kinds of services are the huge parking lots at the other end. They don't always reduce car dependency but do reduce car trips one down (a little).

[Halifax Hillbilly]

I'm willing to bet that [University Transit Pass] alone is likely respondsible for most of the increase in transit usage. Everyother transit system saw similar increases when they introduced it. From St. Catherines (Brock U), GRT (when Laurier got theirs, and this year with UWaterloo), London (UWO)- and that's just some of Ontario's mid-sized cities. It's not really that big of a surprise really. Considering the fact that 15,5000 students, who make up 40% of the ridership of ~150,000 people (StatsCan doesn't include students)- you begin to realize how residents aren't really the ones running to take the bus.


I'd agree with that. Here in Halifax the U-Pass was introduced to 4 universities over the last couple of years. Probably about 20 000 students now have U-Passes and ridership has grown around 10 percent a year since 2004 and 2005. This year transit ridership is still growing, but not as fast as expected.

One big thing the U-Pass does for our transit operator is provide them with a large and reliable fudning source. It's given them millions of dollars with which to expand the service, especially into the suburbs. This is especially important because Metro Transit relies heavily on the fare-box to meet operating costs - fares recover around 60% of costs and it was higher before service expansions.

The problem of course is with so many university students with unlimited "free" bus service the routes serving the universities are usally jammed while many routes aren't very well used. Since students are mostly captive riders, and get a giant group discount regardless of how many actually ride, Metro Transit has no real incentive to provide better service to the universities.

[ssiguy]

Great nes for Kingston. Also lets keep this on track, its a Kingston thread.
You know what gets me? That CUTA's website is so horribly unlike the US APTA site which braks down all the info about all the systems in the country is is updated every quarter.
It's great to see Kingston transit do well but it would be good to see how similar size cities are doing, and that DOESN'T include London or K/W/C.

CUTA's site is nearly useless.