[briantech]

sign the petition! its got 5000+ signatures now. Maybe we can get this idea back on the table.

http://www.petitiononline.com/GASB138/petition.html

[echinatl]

Didn't a bill that would have done this pass a while ago and Purdue vetoed it?

The prohibition law is so stupid!

[Andrea]

You young whippersnappers are the very reason this law is needed. Can't you get your drinking done in 6 1/2 days a week? Decent people would like to have a few hours of peace and quiet!!!

[briantech]

You young whippersnappers are the very reason this law is needed. Can't you get your drinking done in 6 1/2 days a week? Decent people would like to have a few hours of peace and quiet!!!
Haha you're kidding right?

Well regardless, fine -- keep your half day of baseless, irrational prohibition. Can we please just move it to 12am to 12pm tuesday night?

[Andrea]

What, you can't do without the booze for 12 hours a week? And would it be so hard for you to maybe just plan ahead?

What's so irrational about that?


"Excessive alcohol consumption is the third leading preventable cause of death in the United States and is associated with multiple adverse health consequences, including liver cirrhosis, various cancers, unintentional injuries, and violence. To analyze alcohol-related health impacts, CDC estimated the number of alcohol-attributable deaths (AADs) and years of potential life lost (YPLLs) in the United States during 2001. This report summarizes the results of that analysis, which indicated that approximately 75,766 AADs and 2.3 million YPLLs, or approximately 30 years of life lost on average per AAD, were attributable to excessive alcohol use in 2001. These results emphasize the importance of adopting effective strategies to reduce excessive drinking, including increasing alcohol excise taxes and screening for alcohol misuse in clinical settings."

Source: CDC - Alcohol-Attributable Deaths and Years of Potential Life Lost (http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm)

[Fiorenza]

I'm against Sunday sales. People need to show up for work sober on Monday.

[AtlMidtowner]

I'm against Sunday sales. People need to show up for work sober on Monday.

Sunday is the only day of the week I drink at home, guess I need to out and drink too much in a restaurant and hopefully find my way home! :cheers:

There is absolutely no logic in prohibiting Sunday sales. Its just a leftover law from Christian Extremists. Why not prohibit sales of sugar, fats and cigarettes on Sunday as well? Or pornography, or more importantly, gasoline? :shrug:

[Andrea]

I've never heard of anybody smoking a cigarette or eating a candy bar that caused them to go out and start a fight, drive into a telephone pole or run around all night like some tom fool moron and throw up on the sidewalk. It seems like even you heathens would be willing to take a break every now and then.

[briantech]

I've never heard of anybody smoking a cigarette or eating a candy bar that caused them to go out and start a fight, drive into a telephone pole or run around all night like some tom fool moron and throw up on the sidewalk. It seems like even you heathens would be willing to take a break every now and then.
Strange thing about this "free country" idea, what you think we heathens should do shouldn't really have a bearing on anything.

If you can come up with a single rational reason why a legal substance shouldn't be sold on some arbitrary day of the week, other than "well I just think you heathens should give it a rest", please do so.

Nothing stops people from drinking on sundays. Not being able to buy it, however, is a huge inconvenience and a loss of business.

[Fiorenza]

Alcohol is the most destructive controlled substance worldwide. When you add up all the resulting health risks, property damage, family problems, work lost, and costs of interdiction and incarceration, the cost to society is staggering.

[briantech]

I'm against Sunday sales. People need to show up for work sober on Monday.
So since alcohol is legal to sell on mondays, I guess you think Tuesdays are unimportant for people to show up? That makes no sense.

This all comes down to a small subset of people forcing their illogical beliefs onto everyone else, "just because". It's about personal freedoms and adults being able to make their own decisions.

I don't think people should be able to go to church on sundays. Warps the mind and causes hallucinations. You all going to back me on that one though, I bet not.

[briantech]

Alcohol is the most destructive controlled substance worldwide. When you add up all the resulting health risks, property damage, family problems, work lost, and costs of interdiction and incarceration, the cost to society is staggering.
So you're a proponent of full on prohibition? Interesting.

[Fiorenza]

No, I'm not a prohibitionist, but I'm for retaining existing restrictions on availability, and increasing taxes on alcohol. I have the same view on controlling tobacco, pollution, prostitution, porn, and all other forms of unhealthy and anti-social behavior.

[briantech]

No, I'm not a prohibitionist, but I'm for retaining existing restrictions on availability, and increasing taxes on alcohol. I have the same view on controlling tobacco, pollution, prostitution, porn, and all other forms of unhealthy and anti-social behavior.
What does restricting alcohol sales on an arbitrary and random day do towards controlling the negative aspects you feel it has on society?

Heck, alcohol sales on sunday = more alcohol sales over all = more taxes, which is what you said you support.

[Fiorenza]

No, I support more taxes as a restrictive measure. I'm in favor of restricting but not eliminating availability, and banning Sunday sales is just one traditional way of doing it. It's not a matter of forcing religion on people, but rather maintaining a good, healthy environment and social order.

The real lobbying effort for removing restrictions on Sunday sales, is coming from those who stand to make a profit. I'm sick of lobbyists who are buying votes of politicians so as to pad their own pockets.

[briantech]

No, I support more taxes as a restrictive measure. I'm in favor of restricting but not eliminating availability, and banning Sunday sales is just one traditional way of doing it. It's not a matter of forcing religion on people, but rather maintaining a good, healthy environment and social order.

The real lobbying effort for removing restrictions on Sunday sales, is coming from those who stand to make a profit. I'm sick of lobbyists who are buying votes of politicians so as to pad their own pockets.
You haven't explained how banning sunday sales does anything to maintain a good, healthy environment and "social order", whatever that is.

If its true for sunday, then why not ban it for the weekend? The point is that if you support one day of banning, for whatever reason, then you should support two days of banning even more. And three days, and 4, all the way up to 7.

No, sorry, you can't have it that way. Its been established that not allowing consenting adults to purchase a legal product on some random, arbitrary day does NOTHING towards stopping people from consuming alcohol on that day -- it does put a hamper on people's plans though.

It comes down to some people thinking they know what is best for other people. That isn't a valid reason to ban something, just because you don't like it. I don't like SUV's, but that isn't a valid reason to ban them.

Looking back on prohibition itself, its readily apparent that banning alcohol is actually quite ruthlessly destructive to society. Banning it only on sunday isn't nearly as bad, but its still destructive to our freedoms and our ability to make our own choices.

It just makes no sense for something to be legal for sale one moment, then the clock hits midnight and oops, now this substance is illegal to sell. Why? Theres no rational reason, nothing you could explain to someone totally foreign to our culture and civilization aside from, well, as you said -- just some people feel it should be this way.

But, the nice thing about all of this is that this is still america, and once enough people get tired of these stupid bible belt laws that are meaningless, they're going to get overturned, and the will of the people will be enacted instead of the will of the status quo and the superstitious.

[Rail Claimore]

Alcohol is more destructive than marijuana and any number of illegal drugs out there now.

That said, Blue Laws are still retarded. Even Alabama, a state that makes Georgia look atheist, does not prohibit Sunday sales (AL leaves it up largely to counties and municipalities).

[Andrea]

If you want to see what a strangle hold alcohol has on people just look at how violently they react to even the least regulation of it. They'll go wild over the "right" to go to the liquor store on Sunday morning but you have to wonder if they'd be as vehement about defending the right to go to church.

[Buckley]

I understand that 47 states allow alcohol sales on Sundays. I wonder if they have documented evidence of more alcohol related morbidity/mortality than the 3 states that do not. I'm thinking that is pretty unlikely but I could be wrong.

For those worried about this being just a business driven issue, there is also a business lobby on the side of continuing to restrict alcohol sales--liquor store owners like to be closed on Sundays and not having to worry about the competition being able to out hustle them. There is political money on both sides of this argument.

^^^As far as trying to interwine some far-fetched idea that those who would like to buy a 6 pack on Sunday would be perfectly happy to restrict the rights of others to attend church---it would be difficult to come up with a stranger argument. Actually, outside of the evangelical south, many Christians as well as people from other religions enjoy alcoholic beverages in moderation without fear of retribution from their church or their God. And, believe it or not, drinking in moderation is thought to have health benefits (heart health) over not drinking at all.

Finally, this is a free country. the suggestion that people should have to plan ahead if they want to have beer/wine/whatever at home on Sunday is plain silly. If it is such a just concept, why limit it to alcohol?

[echinatl]

If you want to see what a strangle hold alcohol has on people just look at how violently they react to even the least regulation of it. They'll go wild over the "right" to go to the liquor store on Sunday morning but you have to wonder if they'd be as vehement about defending the right to go to church.


That is such a silly thing to say. I very rarely drink and think this "law" is ridiculous. What right do YOU or anyone else have to tell me what I can and can't do on a particular day when its perfectly legal every other day?

Could everyone stop saying "but drinking makes some people get in accidents, or get in fights, and people die from it" just because SOME people can't handle it doesn't mean jack. There are laws that punish people who break the law, get over it.

Plus if that is your mentality do you also want to outlaw the sale of fatty foods on certain days? How about you're not allowed to have dessert on Sundays? Perdue looks like the kind of guy that enjoys dessert, and I bet he would freak out. But isn't heart disease one of the biggest killers of people every year? Quick, I need to be saved from myself because I’m unable to make decisions on my own!

How about no driving on Sundays? Lots of people get in accidents and die every year, oh my gosh we need to put a stop to that!

They should also not allow people to use computers because it causes eye strain and joint problems in your hands. Maybe ban that on Sundays too.

No drinking, dessert, using the computer, or driving on Sundays! Actually, they should force people to install padded rooms in their houses and sit in them all day to keep them “safe”.

I know those are some silly examples, just as silly as banning the sale on alcohol on Sundays. This law isn't put in place because people are trying to restrict sales and save lives (which it doesn't at all). You can still buy alcohol at bars or restaurants. So look, you can’t buy it for at home consumption but you can buy it out, and then DRIVE HOME! The law is there because some guy in power is pushing his religious beliefs on us. EVERYONE should be freaking out about that.

[megalopolis]

No, I'm not a prohibitionist, but I'm for retaining existing restrictions on availability, and increasing taxes on alcohol. I have the same view on controlling tobacco, pollution, prostitution, porn, and all other forms of unhealthy and anti-social behavior.

Porn is unhealthy and anti-social? :naughty:

Right on, briantech, Buckley and echinatl. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Rail Claimore]

Blue laws are communist: They restrict the free market!

Georgia obviously needs more catholics to temper the silly social stigma of alcohol.

[Andrea]

These arguments are all so predictable. "Oh, it's bad for business!" That's the first thing the Sunday booze pushers usually trot out. The only problem is that it conveniently ignores the fact our alcohol laws have not prevented Atlanta from growing into one of the nation's largest convention powerhouses.

Face it, folks. Most people have enough foresight to plan a few hours ahead, or to at least wait until noon on one day of the week to get their first shot of booze. Some of us would appreciate the opportunity to attend our houses of worship without being run off the road by someone feverishly racing to the liquor store.

[L.ARCH]

You haven't explained how banning sunday sales does anything to maintain a good, healthy environment and "social order", whatever that is.

If its true for sunday, then why not ban it for the weekend? The point is that if you support one day of banning, for whatever reason, then you should support two days of banning even more. And three days, and 4, all the way up to 7.

No, sorry, you can't have it that way. Its been established that not allowing consenting adults to purchase a legal product on some random, arbitrary day does NOTHING towards stopping people from consuming alcohol on that day -- it does put a hamper on people's plans though.

It comes down to some people thinking they know what is best for other people. That isn't a valid reason to ban something, just because you don't like it. I don't like SUV's, but that isn't a valid reason to ban them.

Looking back on prohibition itself, its readily apparent that banning alcohol is actually quite ruthlessly destructive to society. Banning it only on sunday isn't nearly as bad, but its still destructive to our freedoms and our ability to make our own choices.

It just makes no sense for something to be legal for sale one moment, then the clock hits midnight and oops, now this substance is illegal to sell. Why? Theres no rational reason, nothing you could explain to someone totally foreign to our culture and civilization aside from, well, as you said -- just some people feel it should be this way.

But, the nice thing about all of this is that this is still america, and once enough people get tired of these stupid bible belt laws that are meaningless, they're going to get overturned, and the will of the people will be enacted instead of the will of the status quo and the superstitious.

ditto...

I rarely drink (3 beers a week, if that), if I want to buy a bottle of wine for Sunday dinner, I should be able to. It's as simple as that. For those of you who feel that it is the governments duty to prohibit my ability to do that because "someone" out there might get into a wreck, not show up for work the next day, get in a fight, or whatever, needs to use some common sense and accept that it's because it's Sunday. And in this day and age, we all know that isn't acceptable...


Andrea, I hope to God you're never hit by someone anytime going anywhere. Just because a liquor store is open somewhere dosn't put you in harm's way any more than driving to work in the morning.....

[Andrea]

What's amazing is that I've even run into people who oppose the liquor laws but are in favor of gun control. I guess their theory is that it's okay to regulate some dangerous items, just not the ones they want unfettered access to.

[echinatl]

These arguments are all so predictable. "Oh, it's bad for business!" That's the first thing the Sunday booze pushers usually trot out. The only problem is that it conveniently ignores the fact our alcohol laws have not prevented Atlanta from growing into one of the nation's largest convention powerhouses.

Face it, folks. Most people have enough foresight to plan a few hours ahead, or to at least wait until noon on one day of the week to get their first shot of booze. Some of us would appreciate the opportunity to attend our houses of worship without being run off the road by someone feverishly racing to the liquor store.

My arguments never touch on business or money, and I don't think the cities ability to attract conventions relates to anything we are talking about.

You are right that most people have the foresight to plan for Sunday and buy whatever they want on the other days, which shows just how retarded the law is. It is a symbolic law, tied to religious values.

How can you assume that you will be run off the road when you're trying to attend church!? Is it ok to get run off the road if you're going to Wal-Mart instead of church? Shouldn't we expect everyone to obey drunk driving laws all the time, every day?

The fact you specifically mentioned church makes me thing you are in favor of this law just because of your religion. What about the people who don't go to church, or worship different or no gods at all? Why should your religion be a consideration for ANY law? What if there was a religion who worshipped on Friday nights? How would you feel if they pushed and lobbied for a law that banned drinking on Friday nights?

Here is another example. From what I understand Jewish people are supposed to walk to temple on Sundays. What if they lobbied and were successful in banning the use of cars on Sundays under the guise that every Sunday there are thousands of deaths related to driving? How would you feel about that, hmmmmmm?

[echinatl]

What's amazing is that I've even run into people who oppose the liquor laws but are in favor of gun control. I guess their theory is that it's okay to regulate some dangerous items, just not the ones they want unfettered access to.

There are all sorts of people who want to regulate and or control different things for different reasons. I look at all of those people the same way:)

Aren't cows holy in some parts of the world? Maybe we should ban beef on Sundays?

[Andrea]

No one has suggested a return to Prohibition. But it seems like most of the 8 million people in Georgia are able to get along just fine without opening the liquor stores during church hours. In fact, folks keep flocking here by the millions. I'm sure that when there's a groundswell of public opinion in favor of putting the booze stores into competition with the Sunday morning worship hour the legislature will give it due consideration.

[echinatl]

No one has suggested a return to Prohibition. But it seems like most of the 8 million people in Georgia are able to get along just fine without opening the liquor stores during church hours. In fact, folks keep flocking here by the millions. I'm sure that when there's a groundswell of public opinion in favor of putting the booze stores into competition with the Sunday morning worship hour the legislature will give it due consideration.

It does not matter that most of the 8 million people in Ga are able to get "around" the law. The law should not exist, and it seems like the only reason why people say it should is because people don't want it to be available during their day of worship. That is not a good reason; separation of church and state, it is important, and one of the reasons this country is great. All of my other crazy arguments of banning beef and driving are just as "valid" if you agree with this law. And if you disagree with those other arguments you're a hypocrite. I'm really enjoying this argument, breaking up a really monotonous project I need to get done by EOB today.

[megalopolis]

The fact you specifically mentioned church makes me thing you are in favor of this law just because of your religion. What about the people who don't go to church, or worship different or no gods at all? Why should your religion be a consideration for ANY law? What if there was a religion who worshipped on Friday nights? How would you feel if they pushed and lobbied for a law that banned drinking on Friday nights?

Here is another example. From what I understand Jewish people are supposed to walk to temple on Sundays. What if they lobbied and were successful in banning the use of cars on Sundays under the guise that every Sunday there are thousands of deaths related to driving? How would you feel about that, hmmmmmm?

Andrea, do you believe in the consitutional separation of church and state? Can you say with a straight face that the prohibition of alcohol sales on Sunday isn't religious-based? I'm not expecting you'll answer these questions since you didn't reply to echinatl's questions above, but I'd really like to know so I can understand your position better.

In a recent poll, two-thirds of Georgians said they want the right to vote on whether or not to allow alcohol sales on Sunday. 25,000 people have signed the petition. I think you're beginning to see that groundswell that you're talking about.

[Dragonheart8588]

I believe that if we are going to allow alcohol sales on Sunday then we should increase the consequences for alcohol related crimes such as DUI and/or domestic abuse.

We need to teach people lessons that it is not okay to put other people's lives in danger because you want to have your fun.

Personally, I don't drink any alcohol at all.

[Rail Claimore]

What's amazing is that I've even run into people who oppose the liquor laws but are in favor of gun control. I guess their theory is that it's okay to regulate some dangerous items, just not the ones they want unfettered access to.

Oh I agree, both should be unregulated.

[megalopolis]

I believe that if we are going to allow alcohol sales on Sunday then we should increase the consequences for alcohol related crimes such as DUI and/or domestic abuse.

We need to teach people lessons that it is not okay to put other people's lives in danger because you want to have your fun.

Personally, I don't drink any alcohol at all.


This isn't about that. I think we all agree that there should be stiff penalties if alcohol is abused and results in the harm of others. This is about the unjustified prohibition of alcohol sales on Sunday based on religious objections.

[briantech]

These arguments are all so predictable. "Oh, it's bad for business!" That's the first thing the Sunday booze pushers usually trot out. The only problem is that it conveniently ignores the fact our alcohol laws have not prevented Atlanta from growing into one of the nation's largest convention powerhouses.

Face it, folks. Most people have enough foresight to plan a few hours ahead, or to at least wait until noon on one day of the week to get their first shot of booze. Some of us would appreciate the opportunity to attend our houses of worship without being run off the road by someone feverishly racing to the liquor store.
You should be a comedian. That is funny, funny stuff.

[briantech]

No one has suggested a return to Prohibition. But it seems like most of the 8 million people in Georgia are able to get along just fine without opening the liquor stores during church hours. In fact, folks keep flocking here by the millions. I'm sure that when there's a groundswell of public opinion in favor of putting the booze stores into competition with the Sunday morning worship hour the legislature will give it due consideration.
If we sold alcohol on sundays, we'd have 16 million people.

Hey as long as we're throwing out baseless, irrational opinions, all's fair. Your backwards, neanderthal beliefs are single handedly keeping Atlanta from being bigger than New York and Chicago combined.

By the way, don't catholics drink alcohol on sundays, IN church no less? Hell, if they go to mass before noon, they're even skirting the law. Why are religious folks allowed to go to church and drink alcohol at 9 am but I can't walk into a publix at 5pm and buy a bottle of wine on my way to sunday dinner at my moms house?

In FACT, considering we've now established that churches are the only place you can drink alcohol before 12pm on a sunday, it seems to me that if anyone would be DRINKING and then DRIVING it would indeed be just those people who engaged in PRECISELY that behavior: church goers who are boozing it up and then driving home.

[echinatl]

I believe that if we are going to allow alcohol sales on Sunday then we should increase the consequences for alcohol related crimes such as DUI and/or domestic abuse.

We need to teach people lessons that it is not okay to put other people's lives in danger because you want to have your fun.

Personally, I don't drink any alcohol at all.


Why does everyone think that if you're able to buy boos on Sundays that the roads will fill with drunk drivers? The way I look at it, if a law is good enough on Monday, it's good enough on Sunday. Right?

[Dragonheart8588]

Why does everyone think that if you're able to buy boos on Sundays that the roads will fill with drunk drivers? The way I look at it, if a law is good enough on Monday, it's good enough on Sunday. Right?

Actually, I'm not happy with the current laws either. I wish it could be more harsh for violators.

I don't mind people drinking on any day that they want to but there are plenty people who take it too far. Like Andrea said, it is one day less without drunkards on the street.

I agree that GA should allow Sunday sales of alcohol because I don't approve of the law. It is too religious based.

[briantech]

Actually, I'm not happy with the current laws either. I wish it could be more harsh for violators.

I don't mind people drinking on any day that they want to but there are plenty people who take it too far. Like Andrea said, it is one day less without drunkards on the street.

I agree that GA should allow Sunday sales of alcohol because I don't approve of the law. It is too religious based.
And using your own logic, if "one day without alcohol sales is one day without drunkards", you should support complete prohibition. viola, no drunkards.

[Dragonheart8588]

And using your own logic, if "one day without alcohol sales is one day without drunkards", you should support complete prohibition. viola, no drunkards.

Well, that would work too, but it is unrealistic. It doesn't hurt me in anyway if we have prohibition.

[briantech]

Well, that would work too, but it is unrealistic. It doesn't hurt me in anyway if we have prohibition.
Well, the city would suffer from lack of taxes. Crime would go up because of the bootlegging that would emerge. Local businesses, pubs, restaurants, and eating establishments would seriously suffer.

[Andrea]

For those who feel put upon by the Sunday sales law, just remember that the squeaky wheel is usually the part that most needs attention. Don't be afraid to look into yourself. The doors of the church are always open to you on Sunday morning.

[Dragonheart8588]

Well, the city would suffer from lack of taxes. Crime would go up because of the bootlegging that would emerge. Local businesses, pubs, restaurants, and eating establishments would seriously suffer.

Really, I'm not for prohibition, but I do seriously think that we need tougher laws. There is still plenty of alcohol related crimes. I'm all for free market and like I said before, the Sunday law is stupid and too religious based.

[Fiorenza]

Andrea, are you giving these guys a hard time?

[megalopolis]

For those who feel put upon by the Sunday sales law, just remember that the squeaky wheel is usually the part that most needs attention. Don't be afraid to look into yourself. The doors of the church are always open to you on Sunday morning.

Don't you feel that's a little condescending and holier than thou? Some are fighting this on legal principle, not the desire to drink more booze or by any anti-religious sentiment. How do you know I don't drink and go to church every Sunday, not that that should matter one way or the other? And since you refuse to defend your position, I assume that means you realize you don't have an argument to stand on.

[briantech]

For those who feel put upon by the Sunday sales law, just remember that the squeaky wheel is usually the part that most needs attention. Don't be afraid to look into yourself. The doors of the church are always open to you on Sunday morning.
Cool, thanks I'll keep that in mind. Just so long as you remember that the doors of logic and rationality are always open as well, should you ever decide to step through them.

[GTviajero81]

I would like to add a little nugget of thought to this conversation. It seems quite illogical that there are certain individuals here and, therefore, groups within the State that believe two things:
1) That TADs are unconstitutional due to the use of surplus school taxes on developments that intend to stimulate depressed areas, thereby increasing the tax base upon which schools and other public services rest. Certain individuals understand John Woodham's perspective with respect to defending the State's constitution as the setting up of a negative precedent could be imminent by allowing TADs.
yet
2) These same individuals believe that making Sunday alcohol sales outside of restaurants and bars would be a destructive move due to the ill-perceived increase in "drunkards roaming about".

Does this not seem hypocritical? Where in one case one man's drive for ensuring legal congruence has rendered a system so very vital to developing the inner ring of the City into a bit of a tail-spin, the case is not made for Sunday alcohol sales. The precedent that has been set, and mind you from an anachronistic era, allows the State to dictate personal choice of consumer consumption. That is NOT right.

The problem is that we are living in a time of a massive influx of new blood and new ideas and the Old Guard just have no idea what to do about it all. Why not make cigarette purchasing and getting tattoos on Sundays illegal. How about working? And maybe include doing yard work? If law is based on religious values at some point in the future conflict will ensue when the balance of power shifts from the old to the new majority.

Think about that.

[Andrea]

... I assume that means you realize you don't have an argument to stand on.

Here's the argument. Alcohol is a controlled and regulated product. That's because everyone acknowledges its harmful potential. No, not every drinker abuses it but we know for an absolute fact that large numbers of people do. And the burden of that abuse isn't limited to the abusers -- it falls heavily on society as a whole, in terms of medical costs, loss of productivity, the destruction of families and friendships, increased crime and violence, addiction, tragic personal injury and thousands of senseless deaths.

Nonetheless, because we value freedom and personal choice so highly and because we know that most people are responsible users of alcohol, we allow the regulated use and distribution of it. That is the social bargain we've struck. We've tried the extremes -- both absolute unfettered use, and absolute prohibition -- and neither one of those work. So as a society we strike a balance that allows almost complete unfettered availability. Six and a half days a week -- 93% of the time -- anyone over 21 can walk into any bar, restaurant or liquor store and buy as much alcohol as he or she wants, of any variety. You can do this day and night. And you can store it up as long as you'd like.

But we also seek to acknowledge those interests who feel that the consumption of alcoholic beverages should be at least mildly moderated by reducing its availability during a few hours on the day which is traditionally set aside by a large portion of the populating for religious observance. No one says you have to go to church or even listen to a preacher on TV. No one says you can't keep drinking on Sunday morning if you want, and at lunchtime you can show up in any bar, restaurant or sporting facility and carry on as usual. If you've planned ahead you can keep on drinking what you've got. It's a compromise, and a very liberal one at that.

There's no evidence that this hurts business. Those in the hospitality industry and in the alcohol distribution and retail business are content with the compromise. There's no evidence that it substantially impairs the rights of citizens, and indeed there has been no broad citizen outcry against it.

The fact is, those who demand the availability of liquor at all times are the extremists. The rest of society has struck a very liberal bargain in their favor, yet they are still not satisfied unless they get 100% of what they want !00% of the time. That's what you call unreasonable.

[AtlMidtowner]

No, I'm not a prohibitionist, but I'm for retaining existing restrictions on availability, and increasing taxes on alcohol. I have the same view on controlling tobacco, pollution, prostitution, porn, and all other forms of unhealthy and anti-social behavior.

I thought you were a freedom loving Repugnantican, not someone that wants government to decide on what is good or bad for you!!

I have absolutely no problame with drastically increasing excise taxes on any item that has proven negative externalities on other people (other than the user). Increase alcohol taxes, fat taxes, sugar tax, tobacco and gasoline....no problem at all. After tobacco and unhealthy foods, alcohol probably has killed more people than most illnesses. But a partial prohibition just is absurd. I have more time to shop on Sunday than during the week when I often work late. Who are you, or the government to tell me when I can buy a legal product!!!!!!! I often have visitors on Sunday and maybe want to buy a bottle of wine.

There there is no logic whatsoever to arbitrarily choose Sunday to ban the sale of alcohol in a country where there is a clear separation of church and state......and all of you know good and well that sunday sales are still banned because of the Christian Extremists that live here. :koko: I dont understand why someone doesnt test it in the Surpreme Court for constituionality.

[Fiorenza]

Midtowner, Sunday is traditionally a day of rest from work, before going back to work on Monday - hopefully sober. I'm not in favor of removing existing restrictions on sale of alcohol, no matter whether they would be on Sunday or any other day if any other day would precede the work week. The employee owes the employer a sober day of work, not hungover or calling in "sick". In this, the state has in many cases provided laws which tend to foster equitable, regulated behavior in society...in this case to not encourage drinking just prior to begin of the work week.

I think the employee owes the employer a fair day of efficient work, and not be hung over or strung out.

[AtlMidtowner]

Nonetheless, because we value freedom and personal choice so highly and because we know that most people are responsible users of alcohol, we allow the regulated use and distribution of it. That is the social bargain we've struck. We've tried the extremes -- both absolute unfettered use, and absolute prohibition -- and neither one of those work. So as a society we strike a balance that allows almost complete unfettered availability. Six and a half days a week -- 93% of the time -- anyone over 21 can walk into any bar, restaurant or liquor store and buy as much alcohol as he or she wants, of any variety. You can do this day and night. And you can store it up as long as you'd like.

If you've planned ahead you can keep on drinking what you've got. It's a compromise, and a very liberal one at that.

The fact is, those who demand the availability of liquor at all times are the extremists. The rest of society has struck a very liberal bargain in their favor, yet they are still not satisfied unless they get 100% of what they want !00% of the time. That's what you call unreasonable.

Just because you call it a liberal bargain doesnt make it a liberal bargain.
"WE" havent struck any bargain. We want a right to purchase a legal product.....period. You are imposing your religious beliefs on non-Christians and moderate Christians. It is absolutely outrageous. Ban gasoline one day a week. Ban all products that contain more than 20% of the calories in fat, ban fast food restaurants one day per week.
If you want to reduce alcohol consumption, increase excise taxes on alcohol and use it for treatment centers for the homeless and other alcoholics. Increase sales taxes on restaurant food and give it spend it on nutritional education programs, etc. These kind of things make sense....maybe.

But the bottom line is, no matter what other arguments you make up, that law banning Sunday alcohol sales was made because of Christian Extremists that like to impose their views on others, and this atheist is extremely offended and violated of constitutional rights.

[echinatl]

But we also seek to acknowledge those interests who feel that the consumption of alcoholic beverages should be at least mildly moderated by reducing its availability during a few hours on the day which is traditionally set aside by a large portion of the populating for religious observance. No one says you have to go to church or even listen to a preacher on TV. No one says you can't keep drinking on Sunday morning if you want, and at lunchtime you can show up in any bar, restaurant or sporting facility and carry on as usual. If you've planned ahead you can keep on drinking what you've got. It's a compromise, and a very liberal one at that.


LOL THIS is your argument. What right do you have to tell anyone what they can do while "a large portion of the population sets aside a day for religious observance". I'm finished arguing with you because you can't debate someone when they infuse their religious beliefs as parts of their argument. No offense or anything, but why try to convince the unconvincible?

You have every right to say "I dont think people should drink on Sundays because its my day of worship" but just know that our constitution and the majority of the population disagrees with you.

So I just bought a bar and am stocking it up tomorrow, who wants to come over Sunday for a drink? We can get a DD and hit up all the local churches maybe?:)

[Andrea]

... just know that our constitution and the majority of the population disagrees with you.

I don't think so. Most states have regulated Sunday alcohol sales for decades and the courts have upheld that as constitutional.

With regard to public opinion, that may well shift in time and when it does the terms of the social bargain will likely change, too. That simply hasn't happened yet.

If you're getting your bar stocked up for Sunday drinking, it sounds like the law hasn't been much of an imposition on you anyhow.

[Andrea]

But the bottom line is, no matter what other arguments you make up, that law banning Sunday alcohol sales was made because of Christian Extremists that like to impose their views on others, and this atheist is extremely offended and violated of constitutional rights.

Well, you implicitly entered the social contract when you elected to live in this society. You're certainly entitled to try to change the terms of the bargain, but you have to build consensus for your point of view rather than simply declaring that you’ve got some sort of special inalienable right.

I don't believe the Constitution gives you an absolute unfettered authority to buy booze 24/7 anyway. It's regulated just like many other potentially dangerous commodities such as firearms, opiates, dynamite, tobacco and a host of other things. The fact is you can buy alcohol and drink it whenever you want. Stockpile it like I do, so that you only need to open the cabinet or go to the wine cellar. Drop into Green's or Costco and pick up a few handles and you'll always be in good shape. And heavens to Mergutroid, can’t you buy beer at the package store or the local Kroger up till midnight Saturday anyway? How late do you plan on doing your shopping?

I honestly have trouble understanding how the craving for alcohol on Sunday mornings is such an imposition. If you know you're so hooked that you're going to need a pop in the morning, why not just stock up? There's plenty of other stuff that's not readily available on Sunday mornings. You probably won't find a good deal on a plasma TV of a BMW until after lunch either.

Everybody can benefit from a few hours of non-drinking, even if you are totally anti religious and a hardcore drinker. Have some coffee, read the New York Times, take a little walk with your dog and by noon the bars will be open and you can get rolling again.

[GTviajero81]

Goodness, what is misinterpreted here is not the "craving" for the alcohol, rather than the "craving" for not having anachronistic religiously-based rules forced upon the population that, ideally and normally, is governed by a separation of church and state doctrine. There is no evidence that indicates that allowing the purchase of alcohol increases alcohol related incidents with respect to breaking the law. Let's put a little twist on it....I can't tell you how many times I have seen people "load up" on drinking of Saturday DUE to the fact that law prohibits personal purchase of alcohol the following day. It makes absolutely NO SENSE that one would not be able to purchase alcohol and in the privacy of one's own home, consume it, yet there hardly a battering eye when it comes to going out to brunches that clearly offer 'hangover' specials? An individual can go and have drinks in public but can't procure them on Sunday and consume them at home?

This is clearly a blue-law that has set a dangerous precedent for restriction of various personal freedoms. What may have seemed as a good thing in the past may not always bode well for the future. Need we discuss the precedent set by a nearly unfettered Department of Homeland Security (a whole other topic that we shan't get into here!) and the ramifications thereof? It doesn't feel so good to be lumped together into a potentially 'dangerous' group/profile, now does it?

[megalopolis]

Midtowner, Sunday is traditionally a day of rest from work, before going back to work on Monday - hopefully sober. I'm not in favor of removing existing restrictions on sale of alcohol, no matter whether they would be on Sunday or any other day if any other day would precede the work week. The employee owes the employer a sober day of work, not hungover or calling in "sick". In this, the state has in many cases provided laws which tend to foster equitable, regulated behavior in society...in this case to not encourage drinking just prior to begin of the work week.

I think the employee owes the employer a fair day of efficient work, and not be hung over or strung out.

But the fact of the matter is that the prohibition of alcohol sales on Sunday has nothing to do with the government's desire to foster sobriety before the start of the work week. It's about observing a day of worship, which the government (due to the separation of church and state) has no business doing.

If you think the employee owes the employer a fair day of efficient work then that's between the employee and the employer. It's not the government's job get involved.

[Fiorenza]

Did you know that on Saudi Arabian Airways there are no female flight attendants? Now there's a restriction!

And, of course they don't serve alcohol either. In some countries, if you're caught drunk more than 5 or 6 times you're executed!

[Andrea]

There is no evidence that indicates that allowing the purchase of alcohol increases alcohol related incidents with respect to breaking the law.

Actually there is. When Sunday Liquor Sales Repealed, Fatalities Rise (http://alcoholism.about.com/b/2006/10/11/when-sunday-liquor-sales-repealed-fatalities-rise.htm)

Be that as it may, I’ll have to admit this has never been an issue in my mind. I’m a pretty hardcore liberal, which to me means placing a high premium on our civil liberties and our corresponding responsibilities. (That’s been my big objection to the Republican party – they abandoned those core values in favor of a “mind police” approach where you are cast out unless you swallow their whole politically correct agenda).

But the only way to ensure that we preserve our liberties and fulfill our responsibilities in a pluralistic society is to constantly bear in mind that this requires give and take. You may not be interested in church, and yes, it is true that great harm has been done in the name of religion. Nonetheless, no one can deny that many citizens find great comfort in their religious beliefs, and that our churches form a vital part of the urban fabric. Churches also do immense good and they are deserving of respect. So regardless of whether you personally think Sunday morning is a big deal, surely you can respect the fact that many of your fellow citizens think it is. Is it too much to ask to give them a little space for a few hours on a Sunday morning, the traditional time for worship and reflection?

Maybe I’m just not getting it but Sunday morning has never been a big drinking time for me. In the event that I am having some sort of function that does call for alcohol on Sunday morning, I just buy in advance. I’ve got all week long to do that. To me, it doesn’t seem fair for me to have a hissy fit about opening the liquor stores on Sunday morning when I know it’s upsetting to a large number of my fellow citizens. I want others to give me some space, so I’m willing to give it to them, especially when it’s no skin off my nose in the first place.

[megalopolis]

I don't think so. Most states have regulated Sunday alcohol sales for decades and the courts have upheld that as constitutional.

Hmmmm, the Alcohol Policy Information System (APIS) says that there are only 15 States with bans on off-premises Sunday sales of alcohol as of January 1, 2007, and that number is dwindling.

The only reason that Blue Laws have been upheld in the courts is that the justices use the same lame excuse as Fiorenza's that these laws are intended to further secular ends such as encouraging a day of rest. It just so happens to be on the same day as Christian worship. This is the only way they can get around the Establishment Clause. As the old guard is replaced, in time, the courts will change their tune on this matter, if the State legislatures don't do it first.

[Andrea]

Hmmmm, the Alcohol Policy Information System (APIS) says that there are only 15 States with bans on off-premises Sunday sales of alcohol as of January 1, 2007, and that number is dwindling.

That doesn't mean these laws are unconstitutional. What it means is that the social compact is evolving in many communities. That's fine, and it may move in that direction here. But it needs to be through consensus, rather than extremists on either side of the issue demanding that they have things 100% their way, 100% of the time.

[megalopolis]

To me, it doesn’t seem fair for me to have a hissy fit about opening the liquor stores on Sunday morning when I know it’s upsetting to a large number of my fellow citizens. I want others to give me some space, so I’m willing to give it to them, especially when it’s no skin off my nose in the first place.

If these fellow citizens would be upset because purchasing alcohol (not drinking it, but merely purchasing it) on a Sunday does not conform to their religious beliefs, then that's their problem. I'm sure they're not thrilled with gay people either, so do we need to lock them all up? Furthermore, I'm sure there are some muslims in this country who think that women shouldn't drive. Should we grant that desire too?

This is "skin off my nose" because it's restricting my freedoms to satisfy someone else's notion of religious principles. No one should stand for that.

I'm with you echinatl, I'm done with this conversation. It's totally irrational.

[Fiorenza]

Good...we win! :)

[Andrea]

All too easy.

[Rail Claimore]

Hmmmm, the Alcohol Policy Information System (APIS) says that there are only 15 States with bans on off-premises Sunday sales of alcohol as of January 1, 2007, and that number is dwindling.

The only reason that Blue Laws have been upheld in the courts is that the justices use the same lame excuse as Fiorenza's that these laws are intended to further secular ends such as encouraging a day of rest. It just so happens to be on the same day as Christian worship. This is the only way they can get around the Establishment Clause. As the old guard is replaced, in time, the courts will change their tune on this matter, if the State legislatures don't do it first.

No, the reason Blue Laws have been upheld in the courts is that the US Constitution makes no mention of them, therefore it's left up to the states. States can do whatever they want with regards to alcohol laws, even to the point of banning consumption if they so desire. The 21st Amendment simply repealed prohibition at the federal level.

I disagree with pretty much all Blue Laws, but that doesn't mean courts should be able to tell states what they can and cannot regulate with regards to alcohol. As long as it doesn't violate the 14th Amendment equal protection clause, the feds simply won't see any reason to interfere with state laws so long as interstate commerce (wholesale distribution) remains unfettered.

[Andrea]

Excellent point, Rail.

[megalopolis]

No, the reason Blue Laws have been upheld in the courts is that the US Constitution makes no mention of them, therefore it's left up to the states. States can do whatever they want with regards to alcohol laws, even to the point of banning consumption if they so desire. The 21st Amendment simply repealed prohibition at the federal level.

I disagree with pretty much all Blue Laws, but that doesn't mean courts should be able to tell states what they can and cannot regulate with regards to alcohol. As long as it doesn't violate the 14th Amendment equal protection clause, the feds simply won't see any reason to interfere with state laws so long as interstate commerce (wholesale distribution) remains unfettered.

Rail, you I can rationalize with, but I beg to differ. Blue laws are religious based, and therefore violate the Establishment Clause. When did the Supreme Court rule that blue laws are legal because the constitution makes no mention of them and, therefore, it's a state matter? Here's what I've found.

From the encyclopedia: "A blue law, in the United States and Canada, is a type of law designed to enforce moral standards, particularly the observance of Sunday as a day of worship or rest. Most have been repealed, declared unconstitutional or are simply unenforced, although prohibitions on the sale of alcoholic beverages, and occasionally almost all commerce, on Sundays are still enforced in many areas. This puzzles many non-Americans, given the supposed separation of church and state. Blue laws often prohibit an activity only during certain hours and there are usually exceptions to the prohibition of commerce, like grocery and drug stores. In some places blue laws may be enforced due to religious principles, but others are retained as a matter of tradition or out of convenience."

From a discssion on the constitutionality of blue laws: "The Supreme Court resolved the constitutionality of blue laws in McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420, 81 S.Ct. 1101, 6 L.Ed.2d 393 (1961). The state of Maryland mandated that many businesses must be closed on Sunday. Occupations of necessity or charity were exempted from the law, which included hospitals. Department stores could open on Sunday, but only certain retail items could be sold on that day: tobacco products, candy, milk, bread, fruit, gasoline, oils, greases, drugs, medicines, newspapers, and magazines. Maryland fined the employees of a department store for selling items not on the exempted list. These items included a notebook, a can of floor wax, a stapler and staples, and a toy submarine. The employees appealed their convictions all the way to the Supreme Court, arguing that the Maryland blue law violated the EQUAL PROTECTION and DUE PROCESS clauses of the FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT as well as the First Amendment's Establishment Clause. They contended that the law was based on specific religious beliefs and compelled all persons to minimally observe the Christian day of worship.

The Court rejected these arguments and upheld the law. Chief Justice EARL WARREN, writing for the majority, acknowledged that the law and other similar laws had originally been enacted for religious purposes. He concluded, however, that the Sunday closing laws had evolved into further secular ends and that this defeated an Establishment Clause claim. The Court, in reviewing the history of blue laws, ruled that nonreligious reasons for the laws had been propounded since the 1700s. Secular argument for blue laws included the idea that it was good for the government to encourage people to take a day off work for rest and relaxation. In addition, the Court ruled that the employees could not make an Establishment Clause claim because they did not allege that their religious freedom had been infringed. They had only claimed the law had caused them economic harm. The Court, however, did not address how the secular goals it described were achieved when the law merely banned the sale of certain retail items. Justice WILLIAM O. DOUGLAS filed a dissenting opinion in which he argued that the state had no business restricting innocent acts because they offended the "sentiments of their Christian neighbors." In his view the law violated the Establishment Clause.

Since this decision the Supreme Court has not revisited blue laws. As long as these laws can be supported by a secular purpose they will be viewed as constitutional. In the 40 years since McGowan, however, most states and localities have abandoned enforcement of blue laws. The one exception remains the sale of alcohol on Sundays by liquor stores."

[Rail Claimore]

:previous: Right, you proved my point. SCotUS opinion said that Blue Laws did not violate the 14th Amendment, and they don't so long as rational, non-religious reasons can be given for those laws. Similar laws govern adult/porn shops in localities throughout the country. While pornography is protected by the 1st Amendment, state and local units of government CAN regulate things like their location, their hours of operation, etc under the guise that the externalities that result from such businesses are harmful to the community in tangible ways, such as increased crime in the vicinity of those businesses (regardless of whether it's true or not).

I'm not saying that religion has no effect on such laws, certainly religious conservatives are happy about such laws whether they be about porn or alcohol. But it's secular arguments that hold water in the courts, not religious ones, regardless of any connection.

Texas' law banning sex toys was recently struck down by a US District Court. A similar law in Alabama was upheld and SCotUS decided not to hear the case. The arguments used in the Texas case could very well have been the same ones I mentioned in this thread... that there is no nexus for the complete ban of the sale of sex toys, only reasonable regulations. SCotUS might take the case now that there are conflicting opinions at the District level.

Back to the subject of Sunday booze sales.

[Fiorenza]

Hey, let's continue with the sex toys.

[briantech]

Hey you all, I am a member of a new religion I just came up with. I feel the internet has a damaging effect on society, thus I'm going to impose my will on everyone and not allow you to read the internet on sundays.

All we need is enough people to convert to my new religion so we can control the government just like christianity does.

Sorry, tough luck.

[Andrea]

Getting better, Brian.

[Andrea]

But it's secular arguments that hold water in the courts, not religious ones, regardless of any connection.

Speaking of secular arguments, I wonder why alcohol is not a scheduled drug? Objectively it's vastly more dangerous than things like pot, yet we've got people serving time for even having marijuana in their possession.

Even though alcohol is mildly regulated, it's treated with kid gloves compared to a number of other things.

[Fiorenza]

Unfortunately there is a booze lobby.

[briantech]

Ultimately this whole discussion doesn't really mean anything. Its clear these laws are going to get overturned, its just a matter of when.

And looks like over 25,000 atlantans agree with me.

[AtlMidtowner]

Andrea and Fiorenza just dont get it......

Sunday sales are banned because it offended churchgoers. Plain and simple. All other arguments are new arguments brought about by people trying to retroactively justify the law, (just like the justification of the Iraqi war constantly changed). Anyone that believes that the ban just "happens" to be on Sunday is intellectually dishonest with themselves.

secondly
If you want to curtail alcohol consumption, increase excise taxes on alcohol and spend some of the raised money on education of the dangers of the abuse of alcohol, rehabilitation centers and homeless shelters. Its that simple. I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever, and it will be much more useful!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to curtail the consumption of unhealthy fast foods, increase the excise taxes and spend more on public education of nutrition. Noone would argue to close fast food restaurants one day per week.

Ban cigarettes one day a week.....naw, lets double the tax and help pay for Obama's or Clinton's healthcare program.

Ban the use cars one day week. Again noone would do that. But I am all for increasing the gas and vehicle taxes to pay for public transportation and discourage driving.

Sunday IS NOT a day of rest for me and I obviously dont want to play anthropologist and go to a Church, so dont impose your beliefs on me or others. Sunday usually they day my wife and I go shopping. This city has little to offer, so we like to go to Lenox Mall and Phipps, and then go to Whole Foods. It always seem to end up on Sunday. I dont have time during the week to go with my wife shopping. Actually I do have a stock of wine in a wine refrigerator, so I dont ever run out of wine. Nevertheless, simply because there are a handful of Christian Extremists that have enough clout to make the Repugnanticans and old fashioned Democrats afraid to offend the religous people, the vast majority of Georgians like myself that never abuse alcohol suddenly cant purchase the alcohol because of imposed morality and religion. Georgia is still one of the last states in the Union that bans sales of alcohol on Sunday. Even South Carolina doesnt ban the sale! :rolleyes: (Actually, I remember 25 years ago in South Carolina, when Blue Laws banned EVERYTHING on sunday except food and medical supplies. The police actually routinely arrested teenage cashiers that sold paper supplies at grocery stores. A few of those well publicized arrests in Columbia, and finally the state came to its senses on that issue. It took several more years before SC lifted ban of sale of alcohol, but still thinks its appropriate to put up the confederate flag)

Why not ban alcohol on Friday, it might saves some lives on that day!!! (and I never go shopping on Friday)

Any law that imposes your religion or morals on others will and should be fought by any objective person. In most of western Europe, people would say "Duh" to that, but here..........:shrug: ......that is why it is so embarrassing to be an American to my European cousins and uncles.

If behaviours have externalties (effects on person other than him/herself), then the government should step in and try to regulate in a LOGICAL manner. (That only logical argument for government regulation)

[Fiorenza]

It's not so bad here. One friendly advice: don't ever set foot in the Middle East, especially not Saudi Arabia... ;)

[dante2308]

No, I'm not a prohibitionist, but I'm for retaining existing restrictions on availability, and increasing taxes on alcohol. I have the same view on controlling tobacco, pollution, prostitution, porn, and all other forms of unhealthy and anti-social behavior.

Weird. It seems like you are imposing your moral system on other people and advocating that the government regulate our daily lives accordingly. Strange, but that is exactly what this country was founded to prevent.

How would you feel if the government banned something you did? Like say having an unhealthy BicMac or antisocial forum posting? The Middle East is not the standard for anything. No need to bring up the worst and say "we're not there yet."

[Fiorenza]

How would you feel if the government banned something you did?

They banned me from owing a fully-automatic machine pistol. I wanted to import a Tatra automobile but they banned me from driving it on the roads without undergoing extensive retrofitting.

[MarketsWork]

Any law that imposes your religion or morals on others will and should be fought by any objective person. In most of western Europe, people would say "Duh" to that, but here..........:shrug: ......that is why it is so embarrassing to be an American to my European cousins and uncles.

Europeans have nothing to sneer about, because they have traded their tomorrows for today. As native Europeans age and die off without enough children to replace them, the Continent is flooding itself with replacement workers from Muslim countries -- hostile immigrants who breed like rabbits. The meager extent to which we Atlantans are affected by "religious" laws pales next to Eurabia's future under Islamic Sharia law. As Fiorenza advised, "don't ever set foot in the Middle East, especially not Saudi Arabia." Today's Middle East is a glimpse into Europe's future.

[Fiorenza]

They won't even let me buy the "good" fireworks around here!

[briantech]

I love how people are so opposed to the government restricting our freedoms -- until it restricts people's freedom to do something they don't agree with.

[Fiorenza]

Now, flip that thought around and apply it to yourself!

[GTviajero81]

It's not so bad here. One friendly advice: don't ever set foot in the Middle East, especially not Saudi Arabia... ;)

Quite simply an assinine presumption and faux-comparison.

How do I use such a strong assertion? I have been to the Middle East and spent MUCH time in all the countries of the GCC. And although alcohol is banned in a few of the member states I never felt as if I was being 'put upon' and having my freedom restricted? "Why?" one may ask? It's because when I would be in such places I understood and respected that many of their laws are based on principles derived from the Koran and there is no separation of the religious law and municipal law. If there was a difference this was clearly delineated. Because this was the case I NEVER had the urge to want to disobey the law.

The difference is that there is a major hypocrisy in GA with respect to the US Constitution and particular state law and that is what is the problem here.

[Fiorenza]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think your judgment is selective.

[trainiac]

They banned me from owing a fully-automatic machine pistol. I wanted to import a Tatra automobile but they banned me from driving it on the roads without undergoing extensive retrofitting.

Hmmm, never heard of it before
http://www.ritzsite.net/Archive/Tatra_T87_1939.jpg
Not bad -- what needed to be "retrofitted"? Never seen "suicide" front doors before.

Of all the older cars in the world, I'd love to have my 1970 Cutlass Supreme convertable back! Oh, I thought I was so smart to get rid of it :(

As for the Sunday alcohol thing what about the Jews and 7th Day Adventists? Guess their lobbyists suck :shrug:

[Andrea]

Just a heads up to all you folks who think you might have a craving for booze Sunday morning and who don't have anything in the house. Go ahead and stop by the liquor store today. They're open till midnight. On Sunday, I'm afraid the bars won't open until lunchtime, so you may have a gap of a few hours when you can't buy alcohol.

It's tragic but I'd hate to see anyone who's gotta have liquor on Sunday morning get stuck in a jam.

ETA: If people feel that put upon by not being able to buy liquor on Sunday morning maybe they'd be happier in some liberal state up north where values have been abandoned.

[AtlMidtowner]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think your judgment is selective.

You still just dont get!!! There is a big difference between legislating morality and religion and legislating public safety.

If externalties are involved, that is, if you actions, anything from pollution to firecrackers to drunk driving, then it may be the government's obligation to step in and regulate to protect the public. I have absolutely no problem with regulating the use of alcohol if it is done in a way that makes sense, such as increasing excise taxes and using funds for rehabilitation, homeless shelters, etc. But restricting it on YOUR day of rest, or on the DAY of the LORD, is just plain wrong. If you dont see that that, that is typical of the "i know nozing, I see nozing, I know knozing" of conservatives

[AtlMidtowner]

If people feel that put upon by not being able to buy liquor on Sunday morning maybe they'd be happier in some liberal state up north where values have been abandoned.

There is absolutely no doubt I would be much happier in a liberal state. Those states with "no values" have lower crime rates, much better education, much better health care, almost every form of measurement, states that are considered more liberal outperform conservative minded states. Unfortunately, I have major commercial real estate investments here and I dont like cold weather. I did move from Vinnings to Midtown, as Midtown is predominantly liberal and we only have a handful of red(neck) people in this part of Atlanta. Last summer, I did tell my wife that if Fred Thompson becomes President I will start selling off our assets and we will leave this country, now I apply that to Huckabee.

How is buying liquor and abandonment of values? I use alcohol responsibily and quite frankly, have a well-stocked a good-looking bar in my condo of both wines and liquor.....but that is just not the point!

Did you notice that the same people that dont want liquor sales on Sunday are the same people that dont want to help the homeless and are the most offended when they talk to you!!!!!!!!!! That is a lack of values!!!!! Isnt that ironic!!! :koko:

[Andrea]

Hey, don't get mad at me. I'm not crazy about the Sunday sales law either, but if you want to tangle with the religious right on this issue, you'd better get ready to rumble. It's going to take a lot more than what we've been hearing on this forum.

[Fiorenza]

what needed to be "retrofitted"

When I looked into it 12 years ago, the EPA required going into a garage in Jacksonville, and extensive modifications made to bring it into compliance with emissions standards in order to be road worthy. I'm not saying they were wrong to require this.

[MarketsWork]

There is absolutely no doubt I would be much happier in a liberal state. Those states with "no values" have lower crime rates, much better education, much better health care, almost every form of measurement, states that are considered more liberal outperform conservative minded states. Unfortunately, I have major commercial real estate investments here and I dont like cold weather. I did move from Vinnings to Midtown, as Midtown is predominantly liberal and we only have a handful of red(neck) people in this part of Atlanta. Last summer, I did tell my wife that if Fred Thompson becomes President I will start selling off our assets and we will leave this country, now I apply that to Huckabee.

How is buying liquor and abandonment of values? I use alcohol responsibily and quite frankly, have a well-stocked a good-looking bar in my condo of both wines and liquor.....but that is just not the point!

Did you notice that the same people that dont want liquor sales on Sunday are the same people that dont want to help the homeless and are the most offended when they talk to you!!!!!!!!!! That is a lack of values!!!!! Isnt that ironic!!! :koko:

I find it interesting that the northern liberal utopias, with all their refinements and superior cultural amenities, are steadily losing population to the redneck, uncultured Sunbelt. That is a strange way for one culture to "outperform" another, and suggests that more than weather is driving people out of the liberal states. I would suggest that the major lure is Opportunity, which is celebrated and protected in conservative cultures, but stifled and overtaxed in liberal cultures.

Your post includes a lot of generalizations and personal insults against those who disagree with your point of view. The religious community has always been the leader in charitable work and financial support for every kind of cause, including homelessness. There is even much disagreement among practicing Christians over the issue of Sunday alcohol sales, but the disagreement is genuine and ought to be respectful. I for one favor repeal, although I really don't think it's a big deal to purchase my alcohol on other days -- it's just a quaint part of living here that we've adjusted to. I have friends who disagree with me, but we still love and respect each other. At least nobody makes my wife and daughters wear a burka or a hijab or forbids them to drive a car -- now that is oppression!

I'm sorry that living in Atlanta makes you so uncomfortable. Your tag line of "Ashamed of my German heritage, Disgraced by my Southern birth, and embarrassed to be American" suggests an insecurity that needn't be. Each of us stands on his own feet. And no one place is perfect, because each has some characteristics which some prize and which others see as blemishes. That's just what makes a world.

Some of the most vociferous intolerance seems to come from those who angrily demand the tolerance of others. If tolerance is not a two-way street, then all we are left with are dueling oppressors. That said, we are short on wine for tomorrow's dinner. Off to Publix...

[Fiorenza]

I find it interesting that the northern liberal utopias, with all their refinements and superior cultural amenities, are steadily losing population to the redneck, uncultured Sunbelt. That is a strange way for one culture to "outperform" another, and suggests that more than weather is driving people out of the liberal states. I would suggest that the major lure is Opportunity, which is celebrated and protected in conservative cultures, but stifled and overtaxed in liberal cultures.

Yeah, after the 2010 census reapportionment, I wonder if it will ever again be possible for that type to control the US House or Presidency.

[Andrea]

The liberals might as well give it up and stick to their transit-riding, latte-drinking, condo-dwelling, anti-values, NPR-listening habits. Thanks to Newt and Ronnie Reagan and a few others, conservatives finally got control of this country and they're not about to give it back.

[Fiorenza]

Absolutely!!

[Rail Claimore]

They banned me from owing a fully-automatic machine pistol. I wanted to import a Tatra automobile but they banned me from driving it on the roads without undergoing extensive retrofitting.

Can't speak for the car, but it is legal in most states (including Georgia) to own a fully-automatic machine pistol so long as you're willing to go through NFA paperwork and the firearm was manufactured before 1986.

There is absolutely no doubt I would be much happier in a liberal state. Those states with "no values" have lower crime rates, much better education, much better health care, almost every form of measurement, states that are considered more liberal outperform conservative minded states.

Well, I wouldn't say that liberalism is a causation of wealth and lower crime rates. Simply put, all blue states are relatively well off in terms of per-capita income because most of them are more established and more urban/suburban than the country as a whole. And not every red state is worse off than most blue states. Illinois, the state I currently live in, is a relatively liberal state... but it certainly isn't leagues ahead of Georgia in many categories, including the ones you described.

[Fiorenza]

Guys, let's kill this bullshit thread. I'm done.

[AtlMidtowner]

.
Some of the most vociferous intolerance seems to come from those who angrily demand the tolerance of others. If tolerance is not a two-way street, then all we are left with are dueling oppressors. That said, we are short on wine for tomorrow's dinner. Off to Publix...

As a matter of fact, I left work early yesterday to go to Publix and bought three bottles of wine that I wont even consume this month!

As I have said before, I have no problem with regulating any substance or product that threatens public safety. It is the obligation of the government to be mediator or referee to balance the the rights of the individual with the rights of other individuals and the community. If your actions effect others, then others have the right to look at your actions and possibly ask for laws and legislation. I only have a problem when the government is legislating religion and morality that doesnt effect public safety . If your interest were to reduce alcohol consumption because you feel that would improve public safety, then it would make more sense to ban alcohol sales on Friday and Saturday, not Sunday. Or raise excise taxes on alcohol and use the funds for rehabilition, sobriety centers, homeless shelters, etc. But banning sales on Sunday is simply pandering to Christian Extremists. The truth is Blue Laws, originally banning sales of EVERYTHING on Sunday, have nothing to do with reducing alcohol consumption, but a lot to do with the day of Sabbath. Reducing alcohol consumption is just a new argument brought to the table. There is absolutely no logic to Sunday banning, especially if you think I can go out to a restaurant and get drunk on Sunday (and think then people could be driving drunk), but I cant buy wine on today on Sunday that I will consume in March at home or with my neighbors that walk to my home!

And MarketsWork, if you read the whole blog, you would see that I was responding to Andrea's suggestion/insult that if we dont like things here, then we should leave to the liberal states! That is a typical American response for people that cant handle criticism and run out of legitimate arguments. "If you dont love it, leave it." I am not dillusional, the more liberal states are only marginally better than the conservative states. The USA still has a long way to go to catch up with western Europe. Even in Europe there are still so many problems. And yes, many things are much better here as well.

Yes, I am VERY demanding when it comes to tolerance of others. You may be right, that may be considered a form of intolerance, but my intolerance is against those that are intolerant. That in no way is negative oppression, if oppression at all! Intolerance is one of the most horrific aspects of any culture. To me, those who are tolerant of intolerance or those who look the other way to intolerance or injustice, are perhaps more guilty than the perpertrators. Real personal example: I have a latino contractor that has been living legally in the USA for 33 years. A few weeks ago, a policeman drives up next to him, looks up at him, then swings behind him and pulls him over. After checking out this driver's license and insurance, he claims the license plate doesnt match the truck. Ironically, his daughter, actually works at the DMV, so he actually new immediately that the claim was false, which he immediately had is daughter verify!!! It was obvious that he was racially profiled because the police right now in certain parts of town are on the prowl for people driving without a license/ie illegal immigrants. As he had a drivers license and spoke English, the policeman had to make up something. He actually wanted to sue, and I suggested calling the local news (which now actually other legal latinos have been on the local news for similar problems), but he then didnt want the hassle and the fear of more harrassment. I have many other contractors that were pulled over for absolutely no reason whatsoever (in Cobb County). They are fishing for illegal immigrants and its just plain illegal. Thats a different subject and that is not even my point (To their credit, Bush and McCain wanted to work on solving this problem). I then proceeded to tell my white property manager (who is a diehard conservative voter) about this, and his response was, "yeah, the police here are bad, my wife was pulled over because one of her taillights was out and he gave her a ticket instead of a warning." When I heard that, I literraly became sick in my stomach. If you are not totally aghast to that type of reaction, then......gee. What, you compare racial profiling and police harrassment with enforcement of public safety laws??!?!? Its tolerance of racism that is so sickening, and this guy even has to work with that contractor!! And other days, my manager is angry that people play the race card too often. Well, because we still have too many problems. And right now, I am looking out my eastside balcony, and see Piedmont Park (maybe even a Forum topic). Several million was just spent on the sports areas, and I see a two baseball fields, two soccor fields, tennis courts and a volleyball court. Soccor fields and vollyeball courts?// huh? what? To me that is an obvious lingering form of subliminal racism! Where is the football field and and basketball court? Its obvious that the park was not intended for those who prefer basketball or football over soccor, tennis and volleyball. Oh, then I see the park expansion plans and there will be a basketball court hidden in the most northerly corner of the park expansion....wow.....then look at the photo of the people on the park conservancy.......

If you are in a majority of a group, it doesnt seem that important, usually the intolerant, or those that are tolerant of intolerance and injustice, will respond "just get over it." Yes, I am extremely proud to be intolerant of intolerance and yes, I will angrily demand tolerance, justice, civil rights and human rights for all in the USA as well as all people in the entire world

Its amazing how a discussion of alcohol sales can transform into a discussion of tolerance and intolerance.........

[tennreb]

Alcohol is the most destructive controlled substance worldwide. When you add up all the resulting health risks, property damage, family problems, work lost, and costs of interdiction and incarceration, the cost to society is staggering.

Actually, that isn't true. For one, alcohol is not a controlled substance. Secondly, smoking causes more death than anything. Poor health practices is number two. Alcohol is number three. Should we ban unhealthy foods?

[Andrea]

And MarketsWork, if you read the whole blog, you would see that I was responding to Andrea's suggestion/insult that if we dont like things here, then we should leave to the liberal states!

I didn't mean to insult you and I certainly don't want you to leave Georgia. I'm just noting some of the arguments you'll run into if you decide to engage this issue. The temperance movement has been strong here for 150 years and personally I'd rather just buy on Saturday instead of fanning those flames. In my opinion there are more pressing matters.

[megalopolis]

New life for Sunday alcohol bill

Senate proposals could jump-start stalled efforts

By James Salzer

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 02/25/08

Backers of a bill to allow alcohol sales in stores on Sundays are seeing a flicker of life in legislation that appeared all but dead less than two weeks ago.

With more than 30,000 Georgians signing an online petition to end the state's prohibition on Sunday sales and with the House and Senate showing a willingness to consider other alcohol legislation, backers of the bill say they at least have a shot this year.

It is something they might not have had before state Senate leaders decided to put two bills on Tuesday's calendar. The pair would allow Sunday beer sales at Gwinnett's new baseball stadium and let limo services offer alcoholic beverages to customers.

"The chances definitely improved since they decided to have beer baseball and limousine liquor," said Sen. Seth Harp (R-Midland), the sponsor of Sunday store sales bill. "We're off and running."

The Senate might not be alone in considering alcohol legislation this week . The House could be voting on a bill that would let Georgians buy wine directly from farm wineries over the Internet.

Any of the alcohol bills could provide a "vehicle" to jump-start the Sunday alcohol sales legislation stalled in the Senate. In legislative parlance, a vehicle is a bill onto which other bills are attached. Supporters of the legislation to allow local voters to decide on Sunday beer, wine and liquor sales at stores are almost certain to try to tack their bill onto one of the other alcohol measures that lawmakers will debate during the final few weeks of the current session.

Last year, the measure that would legalize Sunday sales made it out of the Senate Regulated Industries Committee before it was stalled by Lt. Gov. Casey Cagle and Senate leaders.

Senate leaders said none of their constituents had contacted them about the bill.

That situation has changed in the past few weeks, as the Internet petition drive gained steam and media reports stirred new interest in the bill.

Lobbyists for grocery and convenience stores backing the bill have created a new Web site, www.votesundaysales.com, to promote the legislation. The site makes it easy for viewers to send an e-mail message to the governor, lieutenant governor and lawmakers on the issue.

The Internet petition drive at http://www.petitiononline.com/GASB138/petition.html started by an anonymous Atlanta business executive took off after it was mentioned in the media. The petition's address has been passed around via e-mails and continues to gain signatures daily.

Meanwhile, Jim Beck, president of the Georgia Christian Coalition, has promised his own e-mail drive to get opponents of Sunday alcohol sales into the fight.

Republican Gov. Sonny Perdue, a Christian conservative who does not drink, hinted last year that he would veto any Sunday alcohol sales legislation. And several Senate Republican leaders have opposed the bill and cited opposition from religious conservatives who dominate elections in many GOP districts.

On Friday, Cagle, also a Republican, said about Sunday sales, "There clearly is a constituency group that favors that." But he added, "On my priority list, I've got the water crisis, I've got transportation [and] education. I can't lose sight of the big picture."

While the Senate is expected to pass the bill to let people buy beer at the new Gwinnett stadium on Sundays, it remains a long shot that the chamber would support legislation allowing Georgians to buy beer in stores on Sundays.

Harp might have to wait to see if the House is willing to attach his proposition to one of the Senate bills.

"I'm sure my contemporaries in the House of Representatives will address the needs of all the people of Georgia," he said.

[megalopolis]

Go to www.votesundaysales.com to send a letter to your State lawmakers. You just enter your name and address, click send, and it does the rest. See the form letter below.

Sunday Sales 2008

We cannot stress how important it is for you to make direct contact with your elected officials. Despite overwhelming support in public opinion polls, many of your elected officials do not believe that the general public cares about this issue.

Please take a moment to have your voice heard.

By filling out the information on the left the letter below will automatically be sent to Governor Sonny Perdue, Lt. Governor Casey Cagle, your State Representative and your State Senator.

Talking Points

Georgia is one of only three states in the country that does not provide some option for the off-premise sale of beer, wine or liquor on Sunday.

The Sunday Sales Coalition is seeking to pass legislation that allows local communities to decide whether local retailers should or should not have the ability to sell beer and wine on Sunday. Georgians were empowered to make this decision for local restaurants 10 years ago.

For many Georgians, the current law defies common sense. The State allows them to drive to a restaurant on Sunday to buy and consume alcohol, but the State will not allow them to go to the corner store and buy alcohol to consume in the safety of their own home.

Subject:

Let the People Vote on Sunday Sales!

Dear [Decision Maker],

I am writing to ask for your support of Senate Bill 137 which gives local communities the right to decide if grocery and convenience stores should be allowed to sell alcohol on Sunday.

Georgia is one of only three states in the country, and the only state in the Southeast, with a total ban on Sunday sales. Georgia maintains this ban despite numerous public opinion polls showing the vast majority of voters want the chance to decide this issue at the local level.

The time has come to eliminate Georgia's antiquated blue laws. We should move in the same direction as the 47 other states that allow some version of Sunday sales.

Please support Senate Bill 137 which gives local communities the voice that they deserve.

Sincerely,
[Your name]
[Your address]

[briantech]

Hey, don't get mad at me. I'm not crazy about the Sunday sales law either, but if you want to tangle with the religious right on this issue, you'd better get ready to rumble. It's going to take a lot more than what we've been hearing on this forum.
You haven't made one single valid point this entire thread. All you keep saying is "oh its just for sunday, you'll live".

The religious right can't rumble their way out of a paper sack when it comes to being rational, logical, or reasonable.