[SteelTown]

Rendering....
http://network.staging.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/stinsssson.jpg

Toronto's 'Condo King' snaps up Connaught for $9.5 million

"Condo King" Harry Stinson will be the next owner of the Royal Connaught Hotel if he can cough up the $9.5-million financing in less than 30 days.

He's already made the deposit.

He plans to turn it into a thriving landmark in time for Christmas 2009.

Tony Battaglia, Hamilton businessman and head of the consortium of investors that bought the hotel in January 2005, says there has been no sale and whatever agreement is in place is "only conditional and highly speculative."

"We have an agreement with him," Battaglia said. "If he is able to come up with the money in that short time frame, then, yes, we would sell him the property."

Stinson is already making plans.

"The see-and-be-seen place that the Connaught used to be," is how he describes the hotel and condominium project he envisions.

Stinson's plans for the bottom four floors consist of a luxurious hotel, while compact residential suites from around $129,000 would fill the remaining eight floors. A separate, residential "wow" tower with slightly larger suites would be built a little later.

Neither Stinson nor Battaglia would confirm a purchase price, but The Spectator has learned it would be a $9.5-million contract.

"They're going to get the hotel lifestyle, which used to be quite a popular way of living in the olden days, and it's still very practical," Stinson said.

He also wants to build a residential tower with larger suites at the corner of Main Street East and Catharine Street South, for opening around 2010.

"We mean that to be a wild building," said Stinson, 54. "It will be a show stopper. When you're coming in on Main Street into the city, this thing should be mesmerizing and it has to be. You cannot do this half-baked.

"I think that's been part of the problem with why things have not gelled in the last decade downtown. It's been this half-baked 'Well, we'll give it a little bit of a try and if anybody bites then we'll do something serious.'"

He says he's funding the project with a combination of private money and bank financing.

The first step is simply closing on the land, which he hopes to wrap up by early summer.

"I'm not the guy sitting in Tim Hortons just talking to my buddies about how to fix the world. I've done this before and I've done it several times.

"I'm not doing this as part of a portfolio of stuff and hoping it works out and I'll check in periodically. This is my focus."

[realcity]

that's awesome. thanks for starting this thread. Now ask Tony to add it to Hamilton's diagram page and all the illustrators can re-submit their drawings for Hamilton.

[RePinion]

That rendering of the tower looks nice and sharp. The photoshopping of the extension facing the court house, however ... looks like they just slapped it together in a few minutes.

[raisethehammer]

how cool...I never thought I'd see a proposal like this in the Hammer.
Maybe Stinson will get on a roll and pull this thing off in 5 years and Aura will stall in TO and we can beat them to an 80-storey condo! haha.

[raisethehammer]

i'm no expert on building heights, but how do the ceiling heights work??
This building proposed in TO calls for 81 stories and 945 feet. Yet, Aura is 75 floors and 795 feet.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=127942

[SteelTown]

945 / 81 = roughly 11.67 ft for each floor

[HAMRetrofit]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2137/2301814063_cd0aaed7ff_o.jpg

background from http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=146487

tower from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sapphiretower100.jpg

[raisethehammer]

check it out....already drawing exposure on the other side of the country.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=589161
Go to page 2....a classic 'movie cover' someone did...hilarious.

[SteelTown]

Yes, the folks at UT are highly sceptical of Stinson.

[raisethehammer]

dug up some more info and renderings for Sapphire:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t4232.html

[cityguy]

It's a bit of a fantasy
,but it would be great for Hamilton.

[Rico Rommheim]

WooooW!!! Is this serious a 250m for Hamilton? Is this serious????

[Jarrod]

Ooooh.... Maybe Hamilton will become our Dubai with somethign like that...

[HAMRetrofit]

Should this also be in the supertalls section?

[SteelTown]

It can definitely be added to the supertall section as this proposal is above 300m. Add the rendering and your skyline view along with an article and start it up. Likely in the future they'll be more renderings as well as LikeHamilton pointed out.

[caltrane74]

3D at it again.

FROM TORONTO ISSUES:






From the Hollywood Reporter:

http://www.upside-down.ca/sdphotos/deuce.jpg

FROM SSP:

Seems like Harry has a much better partner than David Mirvish this time around. Maybe it will happen.

http://www.upside-down.ca/maldive/burj.jpg

[SteelTown]

^ Thanks for your contribution

[Cambridgite]

Is this a joke? That tower is like, 3 times the height of the Stelco tower, lol.

[caltrane74]

No problems.

I more to contribute.

Harry has put 100 k down on the hotel. He has 29 days to come up with 9.5 Mil.

If he buys it, he will be buying a hotel, the owners only paid 4 mil for.

Instant Profit : ( for the current owers of course , not Harry)

[caltrane74]

edit

[Rico Rommheim]

http://www.upside-down.ca/sdphotos/deuce.jpg
:haha:

[SteelTown]

If you wish to hear Stinson himself explain his plans for the Royal Connaught Hotel click on the link....

http://www.900chml.com/station/feature_interviews.cfm?rem=100053&jor=100053&StartRow=1

[flar]

I don't really get the humour. It's not like this is the first condo in Hamilton. And it's not like Stinson has never built a condo project before. Actually the vitriol directed at Stinson is a bit disturbing. I like people who take risks. The world would be pretty boring without people who dream big. They shouldn't be ridiculed.

Anyway, I see no reason why this project shouldn't happen. The Connaught Hotel is a great building and was a functioning hotel just a few years ago. Seems like the perfect building for a condo conversion. A 24hr grocery store is in demand for downtown's growing population. An upscale 5 level restaurant with rooftop patio is nearing completion on the same block, the Lincoln Alexander Conference Centre and Plaza Hotel are under renovations across the street. A condo tower has always been phase II of the plan. Obviously "the Sapphire" won't be plunked down in this spot unmodified but it's a great location for a nice building.

[DC83]

That poster is great!! hahaha
I also really liked his (3D) Pizza Pizza Tower too!
thx 4 a good laugh, Caltrane.

[Cambridgite]

Holy crap! This is for real! I seriously thought this was a joke at first. This will be a sweet project if it goes through.

I don't really get the humour. It's not like this is the first condo in Hamilton. And it's not like Stinson has never built a condo project before. Actually the vitriol directed at Stinson is a bit disturbing. I like people who take risks. The world would be pretty boring without people who dream big. They shouldn't be ridiculed.

I know this isn't the first condo project in Hamilton. But 250m is MASSIVE and out of place. I like that he's taking a bold risk, but it seems weird for Hamilton to go from buildings like Stelco Tower and regular apartment slabs to a massive, well-designed, world-class project you'd expect to see in Toronto/Chicago/New York, etc.

Obviously "the Sapphire" won't be plunked down in this spot unmodified but it's a great location for a nice building.

So will it be 250m or not? Is it just what the building could theoretically look like?

[raisethehammer]

Sapphire is phase 2 of the Royal Connaught project.
Phase 1 will begin later this year, if Stinson finalizes the deal on the property.
Phase 1 involves renovating the hotel into a boutique hotel with condos as well as businesses facing King in the old corporate centre (he mentioned a Starbucks and other places like that).
Somewhere in here (I'm not too sure if it's phase 1 or 2) he wants to build a 4 storey retail galleria with 24-hour grocery store. I assume the retail will be your usual retail, which would be good for Hamilton since most new retailers haven't located downtown yet.
He expects phase 1 - the hotel - to be done by the end of 2009.
Then, I guess depending on how successful phase 1 is, he plans to proceed with Sapphire.
He wants 80 stories and so far seems to have received a good reception from the mayor and downtown councillor etc.....
but this is Hamilton and lets be honest, this is a mega-tall tower. There WILL be some debate/discussion on the height if he actually gets to the point of proceeding with it.

It seems out of place for now, but obviously could be the seed needed to bring other major condo/office projects here and turn downtown Hamilton into the 2nd major downtown in the GTA after Toronto.
The only variance he'll need on the site is to go higher than the 80 meter height limit. The mixed use is fine for downtown obviously.
I'd be shocked if council tries to shrink this thing. It's our chance to be put back on the map. I'm sure they'll go for it.

That's all one big IF - let's worry about Phase 1 first.

And to answer your other question...yes, that is what Sappire looks like. His architect presented that rendering to the Spec, National Post etc....

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quit slagging on 100 King West--there's nothing wrong with Stelco Tower--it's a typical Internationalist office tower--and it's not like there are dozens of buildings around which have Stelcalloy as cladding. I mean, if you want to start being picky, Stelco Tower is a heck of a lot more unique than Commerce Place.

[SteelTown]

Seriously if people want to hear details of Stinson's plan listen to this interview, he lays pretty much everything out during the interview. Lots of information.

If you wish to hear Stinson himself explain his plans for the Royal Connaught Hotel click on the link....

http://www.900chml.com/station/feature_interviews.cfm?rem=100053&jor=100053&StartRow=1

[SteelTown]

Holy crap! This is for real! I seriously thought this was a joke at first. This will be a sweet project if it goes through.



I know this isn't the first condo project in Hamilton. But 250m is MASSIVE and out of place. I like that he's taking a bold risk, but it seems weird for Hamilton to go from buildings like Stelco Tower and regular apartment slabs to a massive, well-designed, world-class project you'd expect to see in Toronto/Chicago/New York, etc.



So will it be 250m or not? Is it just what the building could theoretically look like?

I actually don't know how much meters the condo tower will be as Stinson says it'll be 70 or 80 storey high so that's why I have a greater than sign in front of 250 meters because it'll be higher than 250 meters.

[oldcoote]

I don't really get the humour. It's not like this is the first condo in Hamilton. And it's not like Stinson has never built a condo project before. Actually the vitriol directed at Stinson is a bit disturbing. I like people who take risks. The world would be pretty boring without people who dream big. They shouldn't be ridiculed.

Anyway, I see no reason why this project shouldn't happen. The Connaught Hotel is a great building and was a functioning hotel just a few years ago. Seems like the perfect building for a condo conversion. A 24hr grocery store is in demand for downtown's growing population. An upscale 5 level restaurant with rooftop patio is nearing completion on the same block, the Lincoln Alexander Conference Centre and Plaza Hotel are under renovations across the street. A condo tower has always been phase II of the plan. Obviously "the Sapphire" won't be plunked down in this spot unmodified but it's a great location for a nice building.

He's made a lot of enemies, no doubt.

Harry's an odd guy. Atypical from the 'real estate/developer' mold, and I think his no bullshit demeaner puts people off.

His biggest fault may be his obsessive compulsiveness. He's too hands-on, and needs to let the qualified people he employs carry more responsibility.

My concern is the pricetag. For $9.5 million, he's going to require a decent sized tower to have a decent ROI. Is there going to be a market for million dollar condo's in downtown Hamilton?

Yes, the restoration of the Connaught will be great, but will it be enough to satisfy the investors?

[matt602]

According to the way he speaks of the project, the investors are already satisfied.

[SteelTown]

My concern is the pricetag. For $9.5 million, he's going to require a decent sized tower to have a decent ROI. Is there going to be a market for million dollar condo's in downtown Hamilton?

With the Madison at the Mountain Brow the top 2 floors, the most expensive units ($1 million a unit) sold instantly.

[DC83]

Is there going to be a market for million dollar condo's in downtown Hamilton?



Someone also spent $1.5mil on two of the penthouse units at Chateau Royal which they combined to make one, big penthouse.

[highwater]

Quit slagging on 100 King West--there's nothing wrong with Stelco Tower--it's a typical Internationalist office tower--and it's not like there are dozens of buildings around which have Stelcalloy as cladding. I mean, if you want to start being picky, Stelco Tower is a heck of a lot more unique than Commerce Place.

Amen! I knew we'd agree on something eventually.

[Goldfinger]

Someone also spent $1.5mil on two of the penthouse units at Chateau Royal which they combined to make one, big penthouse.

Ah...no. Those penthouses were indeed combined, but they never sold one penthouse unit.

I have seen all of them, and I can say that although they are spacious, I would never plunk down anywhere near $1M for that. I could go to another development in the city, but 2 units and combine them for less than $400K.

You need the WOW factor in a Penthouse, those units did not have it at all.

[Goldfinger]

Quit slagging on 100 King West--there's nothing wrong with Stelco Tower--it's a typical Internationalist office tower--and it's not like there are dozens of buildings around which have Stelcalloy as cladding. I mean, if you want to start being picky, Stelco Tower is a heck of a lot more unique than Commerce Place.

I have always liked the Stelco tower because it always reminds me of Miles Van der Rohes' TD Centre in Toronto. Out of all the downtown towers, I still like TD the best even more than Brookfield Place. The place is always spotless and the finishes are great.

All Stelco tower needs are new windows, the seals are starting to go on many of them and others are different shades due to replacement. The lobby could stand to be redone as well and you would have the most attractive Office tower in Hamilton.

[RePinion]

Oi vay! Don't even get me started on Chateau Royale. The developers managed to combine absolutely underwhelming units with piss poor interior detailing and shoddy finishing with a haute haute fromage pseudo-luxe marketing image ...

In a bigger city, which has countless other developments to drown out the noise of a project like CR, such a place could have been tolerated ... but not in Hamilton, where it was the only major condo project in the downtown for quite some time. What an embarrassment to the city. What I cannot believe is that the developers actually believed they would succeed with this olympic hunk of crap.

Apologies to anyone who might live there, but your taste is damaging to the city's image.

[WhipperSnapper]

Actually the vitriol directed at Stinson is a bit disturbing.


You obviously don't have a clue regarding his past history

[RePinion]

I have always liked the Stelco tower because it always reminds me of Miles Van der Rohes' TD Centre in Toronto. Out of all the downtown towers, I still like TD the best even more than Brookfield Place. The place is always spotless and the finishes are great.

Mies van der Rohe's TD Centre is one of the finest buildings in Canada and one of that architect's finest project's anywhere. It was extremely costly to build and has been maintained admirably. It has always been one of the most prestigious addresses on Bay Street (if not the most prestigious). It is a classic building by any definition.

The Stelco Tower, built a few years after the TD Centre (in 1973 I believe, the TD having been finished in 69), is competent internationalist office architecture. Totally unremarkable for the era in terms of its architectural design but by no means offensive. I think it is certainly in much better taste than CIBC's Commerce Place, with its gaudy reflective glass, and can fairly be considered a Hamilton classic.

[flar]

You obviously don't have a clue regarding his past history

So did he harm you personally or something?

[SteelTown]

If Stinson intends to open a Sales Office at the Connaught within three months we could see the front lobby area of the Connaught renovated and fixed up really soon, obviously after Stinson closes the deal *fingers crossed*

[WhipperSnapper]

So did he harm you personally or something?

Not at all. It's just frustrating how all you Hamiltonians are so deparate in falling for his spiel

The guy's a great bullshitter, a good broker, a decent real estate investor but a miserable developer. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the sale goes through that he plans to sit on the property and sell the Sapphire package to someone else for a nice profit providing his meglomania is in check. He's done that more often then developed.

I actually found his media coverage on how his One King project, designed by a 3rd rate local firm no less, will be the first international calibre design in a sea of architectural mediocrity (specifically mentioning TD Centre) amusing. Many others in the industry did not though.

[raisethehammer]

hindsight is 20-20...you TO guys were also drooling over Sapphire and it's "mark on the skyline" etc....when it was proposed.
Nobody is falling for a spiel....we see someone about to lay down real money in our downtown. You guys see that every week. We don't.
If it doesn't work, so be it.
We're at least excited by the fact that someone is trying.

[HAMRetrofit]

If anything this will stimulate reinvestment in downtown Hamilton. Whether or not this is a spiel remains to be seen. The city is on a sound footing with growing real estate figures and a diversifying economic base. No project yet has been attempted in the city with decent design standards. This is what makes the project unique in that it is testing the waters of uncharted territory. Good design and vision sell no matter where they end are. So I remain bullish on this project regardless of the skeptics of the naysaying peanut gallery. Toronto and Vancouver were once mouldering eyesores so hats off to anyone who has the balls to alter to course of Hamilton's history. Besides a little more competition in the region would be nice like in the old Toronto vs. Hamilton vs. Buffalo days.

[raisethehammer]

I agree.
Times are changing. Mississuaga is getting a new tallest (who'd have thought that 10 years ago?), Niagara Falls is too. Buffalo is even getting one after decades of decline.
The biggest problem in Southern Ontario for decades has been to try and cram everything in TO while the rest of the area sprawls out unsustainably.
Hamilton has all the urban framework in place to support a major downtown. Main Street from Queen to Walnut could easily support several 50+ storey towers. If Stinson pulls this off, it will start to happen. No reason why Hamilton should be left behind TO and Buffalo.

[shappy]

he tries to do everything himself and his presentation often comes across as very unprofessional. It's kinda easy to make fun of him. I've actually seen him frantically running down Yonge St... he oozes confidence (NOT).

[RePinion]

^ Agreed. Stinson clearly needs a marketing manager. He is far from being telegenic and those late night 1KW infomercials smacked of desperation and even shadiness. I hope he takes a higher road in Hamilton, but somehow I doubt this.

[HAMRetrofit]

It can definitely be added to the supertall section as this proposal is above 300m. Add the rendering and your skyline view along with an article and start it up. Likely in the future they'll be more renderings as well as LikeHamilton pointed out.

I will let you do the honors. ;)

[thistleclub]

Given the value most of us place on street-level life and sympathetic architectural identity (eg. neighbourly compatibility), I’m interested to see project renderings from Catharine and Main, where the stakes of intervention are highest (no pun intended). The mock-up that ran in the paper tells me very little, although it did trigger this strange association:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg185/cloudbrowser/batterseapair.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg185/cloudbrowser/cnnghtflyd.jpg

As far as the height goes, there’ll be some negotiation. I seem to recall hearing something about the height restriction being relative to the elevation of the escarpment. The Landmark flouted that rule (not coincidentally, as Frisina had been the first local builder to punch through the city’s height limit decades earlier) but I think there was a financial penalty.

I’m happy about the energy and momenum but pretty nonplussed by the design. I’d rather see downtown get a pair of bold, imaginative 40-storey buildings rather than a bland supertall. Europe seems to do okay by that method.

[raisethehammer]

I'm not aware of any height regarding the escarpment. That would be just stupid if it's the case.
this isn't Vancouver for crying out loud.
Stinson would have to get it pretty bad to screw up the intersection of Catharine and Main. Have you see in lately?? haha...looks like a war just happened.
He emphasized having street presence from the retail galleria on all 4 streets - Catharine, Main, King, John.
We'll see better renderings in a few weeks, but it sounds like he's going to design this complex in the manner that Jackson Square should have been designed.
I'd love to see an 80 storey tower, especially if it's visible to folks on the Mountain...might jog their memory and have them realize that there's a downtown in their city nearby.

[RePinion]

Love the handle - I wish the Thistle Club were still around. There's virtually nowhere to play squash in this city except Mac and the Y.

What's the connection with Battersea other than two disproportionately high structures reaching for the sky? haha

I personally would have preferred a few more architecturally interesting shorter towers than the Sapphire, whose aesthetics I find distinctly uninspiring, but alas ... we have to take what we can get at this point.

[SteelTown]

LikeHamilton mentioned that new renderings will come out within 3 weeks so during that time I suspect Stinson will close the deal and make another round of media exposure.

At least we don't have to wait like 90 days or anything just 28 days to go. Waiting that long would drive me nuts lol

[GreatTallNorth2]

Can someone tell me what residential development has taken place recently in downtown Hamilton? Has there been any significant buildings go up in the last 2-3 years? Usually projects and demand go hand in hand. In London we have seen about 2 or 3 towers a year go up (15-28 stories tall) for the last 3 years and there is good demand for these units. But in Hamilton, all of a sudden, a developer wants to put up this massive tower filled with residential? What gives? Isn't there something wrong with this picture? Now don't get me wrong. I would love to see this happen and I think it would turn some heads if he built it and filled it. I know developers in other cities would try to do the same if Stinson is successful. I just can't see this happening on this kind of scale. Maybe 35 stories or 40 stories maximum, but 70-80 in downtown Hamilton? Someone help me here.

[thistleclub]

raisethehammer: The height thing was just something I had heard. It's not as if there has been a stampede of developers itching to better the Landmark's height, so I have no idea if that's rooted in reality (which is why I qualified the comment). Obviously I'll take any building over a parking lot, but I'm still curious to see how it'll play. That area is pretty hostile to pedestrians and I think you'll concede that supertalls have the potential to be a little dehumanizing to the person on the street. But I'm prepared to see how it goes. Sidewalks wider than three feet would be a nice start. And the galleria alone could be great. In the Downtown Stores thread, I think someone mentioned the grocery store that used to be housed in the lower level of Terminal Towers. That shopping concourse also housed a furrier, high-end men's and women's clothiers, deli and pharmacy. Stepping west across Catharine, you could dine around the clock at Vinton’s/Fran’s or Golden Griddle. Getting those sort of consumer draws back on the block alongside the Connaught reno is psychologically invaluable – it’s as if the city’s getting the chance to rewrite a couple of lost decades.

RePinion: Battersea's a random association inspired by the rendering's passing resemblance to factory stacks and the placement of the Connaught played into that. And yeah, it's too bad that somebody couldn't save the Thistle Club, for racquetsport reasons as well as historic ones.

[SteelTown]

Can someone tell me what residential development has taken place recently in downtown Hamilton? Has there been any significant buildings go up in the last 2-3 years? Usually projects and demand go hand in hand. In London we have seen about 2 or 3 towers a year go up (15-28 stories tall) for the last 3 years and there is good demand for these units. But in Hamilton, all of a sudden, a developer wants to put up this massive tower filled with residential? What gives? Isn't there something wrong with this picture? Now don't get me wrong. I would love to see this happen and I think it would turn some heads if he built it and filled it. I know developers in other cities would try to do the same if Stinson is successful. I just can't see this happening on this kind of scale. Maybe 35 stories or 40 stories maximum, but 70-80 in downtown Hamilton? Someone help me here.

Sit back, relax and let this all transform is all I can say really. It's all completely up to Harry Stinson himself, he obviously sees a chance for a 80 storey condo tower. This is his chance for a comeback, that's what he's really after.

[Goldfinger]

Can someone tell me what residential development has taken place recently in downtown Hamilton? Has there been any significant buildings go up in the last 2-3 years? Usually projects and demand go hand in hand. In London we have seen about 2 or 3 towers a year go up (15-28 stories tall) for the last 3 years and there is good demand for these units. But in Hamilton, all of a sudden, a developer wants to put up this massive tower filled with residential? What gives? Isn't there something wrong with this picture? Now don't get me wrong. I would love to see this happen and I think it would turn some heads if he built it and filled it. I know developers in other cities would try to do the same if Stinson is successful. I just can't see this happening on this kind of scale. Maybe 35 stories or 40 stories maximum, but 70-80 in downtown Hamilton? Someone help me here.

Those buildings your referring to in London I would assume are the new rental apartment buildings Downtown. As far as I know, one was done by Tricar, the other by the Drewlo family.

It's important to note that those buildings have filled up at the expense of other older buildings in the city. There are huge vacancy problems on older buildings in London right now and the market is very soft as I have seen from the last few sales of buildings. My understanding from the Real Estate community there is that London, much like Hamilton is not a city of condo dwellers. Detached Housing is still affordable, abundant and there is no gridlock problems like we have in the GTA. The market for condos in both cities is limited.

That may change if Hamilton were to get all day GO train service. But until that happens, it's status quo.

From what I know, most condos do sell well in Hamilton, we have seen about 800-1000 units build all over the city in the past couple of years. All but one building have sold out.

[RePinion]

It's important to note that those buildings have filled up at the expense of other older buildings in the city. There are huge vacancy problems on older buildings in London right now and the market is very soft as I have seen from the last few sales of buildings. My understanding from the Real Estate community there is that London, much like Hamilton is not a city of condo dwellers. Detached Housing is still affordable, abundant and there is no gridlock problems like we have in the GTA. The market for condos in both cities is limited.

That may change if Hamilton were to get all day GO train service. But until that happens, it's status quo.


The viability of this project is something which has been questioned here only in murmurs and generally for reasons other than the health of the condo market in Hamilton. I think we need to consider this issue more seriously.

Goldfinger's post implicitly makes the argument that there must be a reason to build condos in order for a robust condo market to exist. In Hamilton I think people have chosen the condo option largely for reasons of convenience. In much larger cities like Toronto and Vancouver, people choose condos for much more compelling reasons - primarily because detached housing in the central city is prohibitively expensive, coupled with the fact that most people find the prospect of a very long commute extremely distasteful.

The simple truth of the matter is that we don't face these problems in Hamilton. High quality detached housing is in relatively vast supply at relatively affordable prices. It is certainly possible for a young couple in Hamilton to buy a detached house in a good neighbourhood at a reasonable price even before they reach the age of 30. This is not possible in a city like Toronto.

I don't see how GO service will necessarily increase the demand for condos in Hamilton. Presumably all day GO service will attract more commuters who might otherwise take up residence in Burlington or Mississauga, but if they are attracted to Hamilton it will probably be because of the large stock of detached quality homes which we have on offer. No one is going to come to Hamilton to live in a condo when there are so many already available in Mississauga, a much shorter commute to downtown TO. Obviously, an influx of people into Hamilton will drive up the price of homes, thus perhaps making condos a necessity for some, but this is a long term consideration.

Quite honestly, without meaning to be a naysayer, I think a strong argument can be made that the Hamilton market simply cannot support a project of the size proposed by Stinson. I do hope I am wrong, though.

[SteelTown]

Your missing a gaint piece here, affordability. That's what has been fueling Hamilton's housing market for the last decade now, as Globe and Mail puts it "Stealtown". There's a big price difference for condos/detached housing in the GTA than Hamilton.

[RePinion]

^ That is exactly the argument I was making ...

[RePinion]

There's not a great price difference between condos in Hamilton and somewhere like Brampton or Mississauga.

[flar]

There are, however, some people who want to live in a condo rather than a house. For instance people who travel a lot or don't want to take care of a yard. And there are young professionals who work in Hamilton (!!) that are attracted to condo living (eg: people at McMaster or the hospitals, and in the next few years, at McMaster Innovation Park). Also look at the demographics: in the coming years Hamilton will have plenty of baby boomers who might want to live in a prestigious condo once their kids are moved out. The condo option is needed in Hamilton or they will continue to move to condos in Burlington or even Dundas, where several condos have risen in the last few years.

I wouldn't focus on commuters to Toronto, Hamilton has never been a great option for that. TO commuters will continue to grow, but there may well be a target market right here in Hamilton.

[oldcoote]

There's not a great price difference between condos in Hamilton and somewhere like Brampton or Mississauga.

And that's reason enough right there.

Seriously. For people want to live in a 'city', affordable options are limited.

[Cambridgite]

If this building gets built, I seriously doubt the main market will be Toronto commuters. If this was really the case, they'd probably buy a smaller condo in Toronto, considering this building is supposed to be high end. People who want an urban lifestyle are willing to trade in space for both convenience and a cosmopolitan environment. Commuters are more likely to buy a sprawl house on the mountain/Ancaster/etc or even a nice Victorian in the lower city than into a highrise condo. You may get some commuters choosing to live there just because, let's face it, MCC and other suburban downtowns can't offer the same package. Though, for the most part, I think the kind of people you'd get moving into that building would be working in Hamilton in professional-type jobs. I wouldn't bank on the commuter market to sell this building.

[RePinion]

Is that all we're banking on then - people who want that "urban lifestyle"?

Thus Hamilton will become sort of an "urban wonderland", for people who either can't afford or aren't willing to pay for the "real thing" just an hour down the road? It doesn't seem that likely to me.

There really aren't a lot of "young professionals" in Hamilton. I work everyday with people in professional-type jobs, part of the small and rather intimate community of relatively high-income white collar workers, and most of them are in early middle age and live with families in Stoney Creek, Ancaster, or Dundas. A few live in the Durand; a few in Westdale, etc. These people don't have any real interest in living downtown. In general, they will never live in condos. Hamilton will have to attract a whole new generation of young professionals to build the sort of projects we want. Obviously I don't purport to speak on behalf of this entire segment of Hamilton society; my observations are anecdotal, but I do suspect that they are quite accurate across the board.

I would like to believe that Hamilton has a ton of latent demand which would allow for a real change in its residential dynamic towards denser, more efficient living options and, as a corollary, a revitalized and economically vibrant downtown, but I'm feeling rather pessimistic today and am questioning my excitement from days past. Hopefully it will pass ...

[RePinion]

There are, however, some people who want to live in a condo rather than a house. For instance people who travel a lot or don't want to take care of a yard. And there are young professionals who work in Hamilton (!!) that are attracted to condo living (eg: people at McMaster or the hospitals, and in the next few years, at McMaster Innovation Park). Also look at the demographics: in the coming years Hamilton will have plenty of baby boomers who might want to live in a prestigious condo once their kids are moved out. The condo option is needed in Hamilton or they will continue to move to condos in Burlington or even Dundas, where several condos have risen in the last few years.

This is what I was talking about when I spoke of people in Hamilton choosing the condo option for "convenience". I don't think that's enough to build a strong market, as, for one, the people who choose this option are often elderly or at least "empty nesters". Convenience is not enough for the average family or even couple to give up the prospect of a nice house with yard, etc. I simply do not believe that most of the people who live in condos in Toronto, Vancouver, etc. live there because they would be in a 600 square foot condo than a 1500 square foot hosue.

As for the condos in Dundas and Burlington, these are largely filled by the demographic I mention above ...

[raisethehammer]

you'd be surprised at the numbers of professionals - young and old- now living in Corktown, Durand, North End, Strathcona, Kirkendall etc....
You'd also be surprised at the price of condos available in these neighbourhoods. more expensive than many homes.
However, with Hamilton house prices steadily climbing and a new focus on smart growth supposedly coming, condos downtown will be an even better option in the years to come.
Many of the units Goldfinger mentions have been built downtown...in fact, virtually all of them other than a handful.
CoreLofts on Bay South was the fastest selling condo project in Ontario the year it was built - 4/5 years ago I think??
5 years from now our downtown housing market will be even more expensive, things will have grown that much more, the harbour and surrounding neighbourhoods will be that much more attractive....the timing might just work out great for Sapphire.
I guess we'll see.
Again, it's way to early to try to figure this stuff out. I'm more worried/hopeful about the Connaught for now.

[Millstone]

No one is going to come to Hamilton to live in a condo when there are so many already available in Mississauga, a much shorter commute to downtown TO. Well that's a lie. I chose Hamilton because:

- The new condos springing up are cheap, for now
- The city has a ton of character, whereas Missy is an overgrown suburb
- Toronto is too expensive, and I'd need to change jobs
- Hamilton is centrally located in my job between Niagara and Toronto (and London) and I travel a ton by car.
- Hamilton may become 'the place to be' with all these new projects -- we'll see.

I live downtown and work in the suburbs for the most part. There was an article in the Toronto Star about people "like me".

[RePinion]

I think it is the increase in housing prices which will drive up the demand for condos. I just want to be able to fasten on something solid to create a real need for condos, because let's face it, until it's an economic necessity, the vast majority of people will not choose a condo until they have to.

My confidence is buoyed recalling the very respectable increase in Hamilton's housing prices over the last decade. Another 5-10 of comparable or preferably even accelerated increases and condos will genuinely become a serious force in Hamilton's housing market. I know it is not going to happen overnight, though, as much as I would like it ...

[flar]

I would like to believe that Hamilton has a ton of latent demand which would allow for a real change in its residential dynamic towards denser, more efficient living options and, as a corollary, a revitalized and economically vibrant downtown

I agree that the residential dynamic has been focused on suburban homes of late, however that *may* change with the greenbelt legislation. There are a lot of "ifs" surrounding the Places to Grow act, the main one being when we will begin to see its effects. Intensification is one of the desired effects of course. If there is continued demand for single family houses (a good bet) but a lesser supply of new homes, then at some point the cheap houses in Hamilton will no longer be cheap and condos will be more of an option. Stinson could be betting on this scenario.

Hamilton also has a solid history of high density living, other Ontario cities (except Toronto!) could only dream of this kind of density downtown:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/mountainbrow/100063.jpg


Edit: look at all the posts while I wrote this!

[RePinion]

Well that's a lie. I chose Hamilton because:

- The new condos springing up are cheap, for now
- The city has a ton of character, whereas Missy is an overgrown suburb
- Toronto is too expensive, and I'd need to change jobs
- Hamilton is centrally located in my job between Niagara and Toronto (and London) and I travel a ton by car.
- Hamilton may become 'the place to be' with all these new projects -- we'll see.

I live downtown and work in the suburbs for the most part. There was an article in the Toronto Star about people "like me".

Cheap? Hardly. Core Lofts and Chateau Royale were priced only somewhat below comparable units in TO. It's not as though they were several hundred thousand dollars cheaper than comparable TO units or hundreds of square feet larger.

As for your remark about Hamilton having an advantage in terms of character, I agree with you, and that's why I still live here. That being said, it's not as though Hamilton has the sort of architectural character comparable to a Montreal or New York. Our buildings are older than those of Mississauga, etc., and generally of a higher quality, but a great deal of our "heritage" architecture is really banal boring stuff and better architecture can be found in comparably sized American cities. I don't think our architecture is enough to draw the majority of people, but I definitely agree that Hamiltonians have a stronger sense of identity and community, and maybe that's enough.

As for everything else, that's just subjective ...

[RePinion]

I agree that the residential dynamic has been focused on suburban homes of late, however that *may* change with the greenbelt legislation. There are a lot of "ifs" surrounding the Places to Grow act, the main one being when we will begin to see its effects. Intensification is one of the desired effects of course. If there is continued demand for single family houses (a good bet) but a lesser supply of new homes, then at some point the cheap houses in Hamilton will no longer be cheap and condos will be more of an option. Stinson could be betting on this scenario.

Hamilton also has a solid history of high density living, other Ontario cities (except Toronto!) could only dream of this kind of density downtown:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/mountainbrow/100063.jpg


Edit: look at all the posts while I wrote this!

This is a good point. It's stuff like decreased availabilty of new homes which will drive the need for densification. Thank god for the greenbelt and the fetters it will place on new home development in the Hamilton area. So long as new homes are being built at a steady pace, housing prices remain relatively stable and there is no need to seek out alternative property options such as co-ops and condos.

I don't think lifestyle choice is enough, though. It's gotta be something solidly economic. Otherwise we're just deluding ourselves ...

[RePinion]

Sorry, didn't mean to quote the pic ...

[raisethehammer]

we actually do have some fab architecture....more importantly is the architecture or design of our streets. Streetwalls of 3-4 storey mixed-use buildings. Sure, many are brick or stone and not overly ornate, but they are places that feel comfortable and have character.
Some of our buildings are downright gorgeous...a handful of others would be once fixed up.
Gore Park and it's surrounding streetscape could be one of the greatest public gathering/dining/entertaining/living spots in the entire country if we fix it up properly.
Hamilton certainly has that going for it...really, our downtown streets are similar in design and detail to those in Toronto. Neither city was graced with the great architecture as Montreal or Boston will present in almost every neighbourhood in buildings both expensive and cheap.
Our architecture is more simple, but very urban and cohesive.

[WhipperSnapper]

draw away ... now added to the database

[RePinion]

^ I certainly don't deny that Hamilton has some great architecture. I love the old buildings in this city. I take pride in the one's that are still beautiful and see a ton of potential in those which have been neglected.

But it's not as though Hamilton is a trove of veritable architectural treasures like Dresden, or Bath.

I just don't think that what we've got is that much of an attraction for the average person who doesn't already live here and have a real connection to the feel of this city ....

[HAMRetrofit]

Pure selfish economic property speculation will sell units in this condo. Persons from around the world who invest in Central Ontario real estate will be buying into this project. Low prices with the promise of growth are what will sell units. Hamilton is in a solid market for this development, and can be categorized the same way as MCC, Brampton, and Pickering. However, it offers all the amenities of an actual city like Toronto with a top caliber University and Health Care Facilities.

The macro real estate trends need to be looked at:

people moving into the city
people are looking for modern accommodations
demographics are shifting towards a metropolitan lifestyle
young adults are beginning families later or not at all
divorce is at an all time high reducing demand for single detached homes
boomers are aging and looking for an easier lifestyle

[Millstone]

Cheap? Hardly. Core Lofts and Chateau Royale were priced only somewhat below comparable units in TO. It's not as though they were several hundred thousand dollars cheaper than comparable TO units or hundreds of square feet larger.

As for your remark about Hamilton having an advantage in terms of character, I agree with you, and that's why I still live here. That being said, it's not as though Hamilton has the sort of architectural character comparable to a Montreal or New York. Our buildings are older than those of Mississauga, etc., and generally of a higher quality, but a great deal of our "heritage" architecture is really banal boring stuff and better architecture can be found in comparably sized American cities. I don't think our architecture is enough to draw the majority of people, but I definitely agree that Hamiltonians have a stronger sense of identity and community, and maybe that's enough.

As for everything else, that's just subjective ...
Well, from my experience, it is cheaper to buy in downtown Hamilton than it is to buy in downtown TO. Stinson wants to price his new units at $129,900 in the Connaught and that's about right. Most downtown units in TO start in the 200s and the sky's the limit.

[RePinion]

I really don't want to associate myself with the camp who thinks that nothing good will ever come for this city and that we might as well stick with our one-way streets and suburban mindset and forget about any sort of revitalization of the lower city. I can feel the change of attitude and growing optimism in this city, as well as the increase in urban awareness.

I can't tell you how excited I was when Stinson first announced the Connaught project and especially after hearing the radio interview. I definitely want this project to succeed.

But the further I get from that date, the sillier Stinson's idea seems. Maybe I'm just getting too conservative in my thinking in my old age, but I really expected Hamilton's downtown to recover through incremental change. A few more mid-sized condo projects here, some increased retail there, lowered vacancy rates, increasing income levels, etc, all at a steadily quickening pace. But one huge 80 storey tower all of a sudden? There just hasn't been anything to trigger something this dramatic. Maybe there's just been so much latent demand that I've been deaf to ...

[RePinion]

Well, from my experience, it is cheaper to buy in downtown Hamilton than it is to buy in downtown TO. Stinson wants to price his new units at $129,900 in the Connaught and that's about right. Most downtown units in TO start in the 200s and the sky's the limit.

Note that $129k was for "very compact" units in the Connaught. You can buy a small new condo in TO, or an average size older condo (usually converted from large older apartment blocks), for often well below $175k.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into an argument. I'm not here trying to prove that there's absolutely no reason to build condos in Hamilton and that our market can't be competitive. I just don't see a total shift in our urban dynamic towards a hyper densified downtown, at least not in the very near future.

[flar]

I don't think anyone actually thinks there will be an 80 floor supertall in Hamilton, but I do think something like 50 storeys is a possibility. Most importantly, a quality building. The original Connaught redevelopment had two 20-25 storey buildings planned for the site. The London Taphouse reno on the southwest corner of the block reduced the plan to one tower.

[raisethehammer]

some great comments on here....my two cents - I don't think this will start a trend to supertalls in Hamilton.
In fact, I'm willing to bet that if he can pull off a 70-80 storey tower it will forever remain the city's tallest...although, never say never I guess.

The comment about incremental change is a good one. And it's what we've been seeing downtown in recent years. As much as Stinson can make comments like "all these small projects and improvements aren't getting it done" he needs to realize that without them, he wouldn't even be looking here right now. The past 5-7 years has seen a lot of great changes downtown.
He is right about bigger ideas such as the horrendous street design on King and Main. and I see where he's coming from with a huge tower and associated elements really being a catalyst.
If he's successsful, I could see other TO condo developers coming to town to do 20-50 storey condos. No reason why not. I've always believed that day would come.

Here's a possible dream scenario for Hamilton:
1. NHL at Copps
2. LRT
3. Sapphire Tower

This city would change forever.

[raisethehammer]

someone mentioned that this would go into the supertalls proposals.
I can't seem to find it there. Any hints??

[RePinion]

Here's a possible dream scenario for Hamilton:
1. NHL at Copps
2. LRT
3. Sapphire Tower

This city would change forever.

These three things would certainly seal the deal for Hamilton's revival. Hope I see them all in my life time.

[DC83]

Here's a possible dream scenario for Hamilton:
1. NHL at Copps
2. LRT
3. Sapphire Tower

This city would change forever.

I agree, #1 & #2 would certainly speed up the revival. To be honest, I don't really care if Sapphire is ever built at 80 or 70 or 50 storeys. IMO, we need to fix up and fill up what we already have before creating a supertall that could possibly steal tenants away from infill projects such as the possible redevelopment of the Federal Bldg, or Trebble Hall or any other historic building.

Before Toronto started with these mega-condo projects, they concentrated on infil which is what Montréal is currently doing as well. Fill in what we have, then worry about mega-condo projects. This way we wont lose our heritage buildings and therefor be able to keep that 'Hamilton Charm' some people move here for.

So MY dream scenerio would be:

1) Infill projects (such as the Connaught)
2) LRT and resulting two-way conversions
3) NHL team @ Copps

I think this will create a crazy demand for urban living in this city, THEN we can start working on mega-condos! ...imo anyway...

[LikeHamilton]

A few comments from what I have read here.

I have friends who live on the other side of Toronto in Durham region. One works local and the other takes the GO train to T.O. A few times they have come this way by GO and they are amazed how much quicker (and cheaper) it is to go from downtown T.O. to Hamilton than it is going the other way. And housing being cheaper they would love to move this way and downsize. But only one has a job that is transferable. But these are the type of persons that would be perfect to convince to move to downtown Hamilton.

Cost of condos maybe close to the same as in T.O. but what you get is not. I know people living right downtown T.O and near the Rogers Centre and the ACC and they are paying (and they are nuts!) $3000.00 a month for a 600 sq ft apartment. I tell them to move here and get way more for there money.

As to compact apartments in the Connaught, I will wait until and see the floor plans first. The floors are wide open and they can make them any size they want.

As to cost of condo, there are a lot of people with money or think they have money. The fact is they are selling dozens if not 100’s of homes each week in this area costing over $300,000. There are subdivisions with hundreds of new homes that will sell out in months. Like I said, one area in Ancaster there are 100 new lots with homes starting at $500,000 and going to over $1 million. They sold 12 before advertising and expect to be sold out by summer. Harry just has to advertise right and convince just some of these people from around here and other place and he will fill a building. And as soon as it looks like it is the trendy thing to do, then it will become a feeding frenzy and we will see more and more development downtown. Maybe even a boomtown.

[SteelTown]

To me if Stinson does build an 80 storey condo tower it'll take a LONG time before someone has the guts to top it. I view this as Hamilton's possible version of a CN Tower (I think the globe at the top has an observation deck), expect it's liveable.

Imagine a restaurant at the top and having the view of Toronto, Niagara Falls, Buffalo and probably could see Cleveland faintly on a clear day.

[RePinion]

A few comments from what I have read here.

I have friends who live on the other side of Toronto in Durham region. One works local and the other takes the GO train to T.O. A few times they have come this way by GO and they are amazed how much quicker (and cheaper) it is to go from downtown T.O. to Hamilton than it is going the other way. And housing being cheaper they would love to move this way and downsize. But only one has a job that is transferable. But these are the type of persons that would be perfect to convince to move to downtown Hamilton.

Cost of condos maybe close to the same as in T.O. but what you get is not. I know people living right downtown T.O and near the Rogers Centre and the ACC and they are paying (and they are nuts!) $3000.00 a month for a 600 sq ft apartment. I tell them to move here and get way more for there money.

As to compact apartments in the Connaught, I will wait until and see the floor plans first. The floors are wide open and they can make them any size they want.

As to cost of condo, there are a lot of people with money or think they have money. The fact is they are selling dozens if not 100’s of homes each week in this area costing over $300,000. There are subdivisions with hundreds of new homes that will sell out in months. Like I said, one area in Ancaster there are 100 new lots with homes starting at $500,000 and going to over $1 million. They sold 12 before advertising and expect to be sold out by summer. Harry just has to advertise right and convince just some of these people from around here and other place and he will fill a building. And as soon as it looks like it is the trendy thing to do, then it will become a feeding frenzy and we will see more and more development downtown. Maybe even a boomtown.

$3000 a month for a 600 sq. ft condo in Toronto is absurd. Your friend is getting hopelessly screwed. My sister and her boyfriend are renting a 750 sq ft 1+den condo in a fairly high end building around Bloor and Yonge for $1550/month. I did a lot of the searching for them on Viewit, Craigslist, the Star etc. and I know that even $1550 is slightly above the norm for such a unit (but the location is one of the most desirable in the city, and certainly more expensive than around the ACC where you could knock probably $150 of the amount I note above).

I saw that they were trying to rent out small units in the Chateau Royale for $1200 and up a while back. That's ridiculous. My conclusion is that Hamilton condos are quite overpriced.

The people who are moving into the expensive homes in Ancaster, etc. are usually families who would never even consider moving into a condo and for good reason. Unlike cities such as New York and Chicago, our condos and apartments are simply not designed for family living. The Canadian paradigm has always been to cram as many tiny units into a tower as possible, Stinson being no exception.

[raisethehammer]

I thought some of you computer geeks would have slapped together a few views of Sapphire on the skyline by now....I'm itching to see a daytime perspective from Sam Lawrence area. If anyone's got time......lol

[DC83]

^^ Don't forget, RePinion, ontop of one's mortagage, you also have to pay those rediculous condo fees! And depending on the amenities the building offers, they can be quite high!

$3000/mth is not at all absurd for Toronto.

[SteelTown]

I can imagine the condo fee for Phase I will be higher than typical. As these condos will include typical hotel service like housekeeping and a nice mint chocolate on the top of the pillow, mmmmm me wanna get a unit! lol

[RePinion]

I maintain that $3000/month is absurd. If it is possible to rent a larger unit for $1550 (and I KNOW that it is) this will include the condo fees and whatever mortgage payments must be incurred by the owner. In almost all cases of condo rentals, the unit is 100% financed by small time investors who then turn over the leasing of the unit to a property management firm which also takes a percentage fee. This means that any given price to rent a condo - $1550 say - must include the condo fees (the average being about $300-500 for a unit of my sister's size), the mortgage payments (which, given that most of these units are 100% financed, are quite high), the fee to the property manager (upwards of 10%), and presumably a small margin for profit.

Unless you're paying an absolutely usurious interest rate on your mortgage, or your condo is so poorly managed that your maintenance fees run into the thousands of dollars (unheard of), $3000 per month for a 600 sq. ft. condo is unrealistic.

[RePinion]

$3000/month for a 1200 sq. ft. luxury condo in Rosedale or Forest Hill on the other hand would not be ridiculous at all.

[DC83]

^^ You should catch up on your HGTV, RePinion. Esp the real estate shows. You'll then see that these prices are not unheard of. Seriously. It's Toronto, dude! People pay tens-of-thousands of dollars to buy parking spots! Who would have thought that parking spots would be a hot real estate ticket?

But ya, it all depends on where you're living. You wont likely pay $3000/mth if you're living in an older condo bldg at say Don Mills/Lawrence, but most certainly for a brand new bldg at Bloor/Jarvis!

There's so many condos in Toronto, developpers have to be creative... so they are marketing high end, luxury suites with tons of on-site amenities. And these units are indeed THAT expensive. It just depends on one's lifestyle.

[RePinion]

I still respectfully disagree. Brand new condos downtown are still regularly marketed in the 200's.

We're not talking about the sort of luxury suites which come with sub-zero appliances, mahogany flooring and vaulted ceilings (such as are being built on Charles Street right now). We're talking about a 600 sq. ft. basic starter home (since there really are no luxury buildings in the ACC area).

Anyway, there's not much point in going on about this any longer, I realize ...

[markbarbera]

Boy, of all the weeks to book for a vacation, I chose the week of this big announcement and miss all the hoopla! Just getting caught up on all the posts here.

Here are a few comments:

Hamilton should welcome a new 'wow' tower. I especially like how it is being planted on an empty lot, and is complementing a renovated Royal Connaught. It'll be nice to have at least one gap-tooth filled on Main.

The new condo tower will be the dividing rod on how ready the Hamilton condo market is for new largescale projects, as opposed to retrofits that currently define the downtown condo market. Stinson will easily be able to scale the height of the building to meet market demand. Personally I am hoping for full height on this, and if demand is strong enough to support its full height, then this will also be a lightning rod for other developments in the area. This won't be the first of a series of 80-floor condos, but it could be the highlight on a skyline of several new 30-40 floor buildings in close proximity.

Should this take off, the BRT vs LRT arguement should become moot. Development of this intensity will require nothing less than LRT to support the influx of bodies in the downtown core. 80 floors of 8-12 units drops about 2000 new residents downtown.

[SteelTown]

Stinson can always scale down. First open a Sales Office with the proposed 80 storey and depending on the number of demand/sales see if 80 storey is acceptable if not they can scale it down to the demend based from the Sales Office. Stinson himself wants to aim high.

[DC83]

^^ Exactly, Steeltown. I believe that's how Trump did it for his bldg in TO.

[SteelTown]

That's exactly what Trump did. The demand wasn't strong enough for the original proposed I think it was 70 storey? So Trump scaled it down. Now those units are EXPENSIVE. Probably the $3000/month you guys were talking about. Think that's the main reason why the demand wasn't strong.

I should say "Think that's the main reason why the demand wasn't strong ENOUGH" Obviously there was a strong demand but it wasn't enough.

[flar]

$3000/mo is probably not that uncommon. My cousin pays $1650 for a tiny bachelor sized condo near Yonge and Bloor.

[raisethehammer]

I agree completely MarkBarbera.
I really believe that Main St from Queen to Catharine could support half a dozen towers in the 40+ storey range.
Only time will tell.