[the urban politician]

I have a personal example to demonstrate this argument:

A few months ago, a friend of mine from Alexandria, VA visited me in my neighborhood of Forest Hills, Queens.

When we walked down the main drag of my neighborhood (Austin St), his first comment was "wow, TGI Fridays? Are you kidding me? It's all chain stores!" Of course, there is a great mix of chain stores, chain restaurants, and non-chain restaurants, boutiques, and other businesses on Austin St. It's a perfect combo. A lot of people drive here, but a hell of a lot of people also walk and use transit to get here. It's one stop shopping, baby, and because of that people of all "classes" and backgrounds can be seen here. It really lives up to being our community's Main Street, and I would even go further to argue that such a set up reduces car dependency.

When I asked my friend what he meant, he commented how there is a drag of shops within walking distance of his house in Alexandria that exclusively had neat little boutiques, bakeries, etc, and that this was his idea of a proper retailing environment. I had seen his neighborhood before, and he was right. But his mentality is what I believe is wrong with a lot of Americans' views of what a Main Street "should" be. Because in all honesty, there is a major suburban-style mega-center about 1/2 mile away from his house and it's full of discount retailers, grocers, restaurants, etc. And there isn't a single doubt in my mind that the majority of people in his neighborhood do their shopping there (by car), while getting their "walkable Main Street" fix by occasionally visiting the boutiques and bakeries on the strip of shops nearby.

By expecting Main Streets to maintain their quaint charm and character, I think we're severely undermining their potential to buzz with life--real life--again. I also think communities would have a greater sense of ownership of their Main Street if it served a broader function. I would even argue that allowing stores that are more practical and relevant to day-to-day life would create a much greater sense of place than a bunch of arcane antiques & chocolate shops.

Anyone like to chime in?

[Echo Park]

I don't have a problem in keeping main streets quaint for smaller or more isolated towns in order to preserve their character, but a city with the size and density of Alexandria should be aiming higher.

[ski82]

I agree.

Examining the environment of this country is almost impossible to do. To me anyway. Many people dislike big box retail...and I agree with a lot of what they have to say...but fi you think about it, the environment of the quaint main street that you described, depends on those big box developments. And people, by and large depend on them too. Could you imagine what shopping would be like if there were no big box? Even if you don't shop at any yourself, imagine how many more people there would be. Sure there would be many times more small stores, but our country isn't designed that way. The quaint main street is really only compatible with small towns, I think. Even before the auto and highways, main streets weren't really quaint.

All this is the effect of subsidized highways, poor zoning, etc. I consider myself more-or-less a libertarian, but I'm not one who screams against any rail transit. The environment we already live in is already so artificail and produced by subsidies that there is no basis for saying one lifestyle is superior to another. Libertarians who are advocates for the suburbs are conveniently overlooking the fact that their lifestyles are highly subsidized too.

Sorry for rambling and possibly getting of topic...

[JV_325i]

Well, for me, I would say that the main commercial streets in my neighborhood (Wicker Park/Bucktown) lean towards the "quaint" side per your description, or perhaps a better word for them would be "eclectic." Damen, North, Milwaukee, and Armitage are the main retail streets near where I live (I am including the names for you TUP because you used to live in Chicago, no?), and they are lined with clothing boutiques, bakeries, bars, restaurants, etc. This would be fantastic if all I wanted to do was buy expensive clothing, get hammered, and then go get a slice of artisanal carrot cake. Now, don't get me wrong, this sequence of events could be quite enjoyable. But day-to-day I don't do that kind of stuff. I need groceries, household products, socks, and that sort of thing, and I don't have a car. Thankfully there is a nice grocer right down the street that sells about everything I need, and it has a deli and all that good stuff, but say I need...I don't know - an allen wrench. There is a Walgreens down the street maybe 5 blocks, but they don't have shit for hardware. Must I really brave the psycho drivers and potholes to bike my ass out to Home Depot on Clybourn? Is it too much to ask to have one decent, neighborhood hardware store? I guess the retail in Chicago feels somewhat dichotomous to me: shopping on our "main streets" when I want to splurge (if ever) and biking (more like "averting death") to some suburban-style shopping tumor when I need basic things. Shouldn't it be the other way around, having to travel a little to things I don't normally get and having the basic needs right out of my door step?

[urbanactivistTX]

Supply and demand. If people want TGI Fridays, Old Navy, or Wal-Mart, then that's what they're going to get. It's unfortunate for private businesses, but they have to keep re-inventing the wheel to stay competitive.

[seaskyfan]

I think Main Streets can easily get "over-boutiqued." Who cares if you can go to eight different places for scones or upscale greeting card if you have to drive five miles to buy a hammer?

I live near a great retail strip (N 45th in Seattle's Wallingford neighborhood) and what I like about it is that you can still get the necessities of life (there's a supermarket, two drugstores, a few banks, a great hardware store, medical offices, etc.) while having a range of restaurants and boutique-type places and some places like the movie theaters that bring folks in from outside the neighborhood. I find that I often don't use the car all weekend.

[POLA]

I'm not sure I'm following you on this. big boxes and chain resturants are two different monsters. The reason TGIF is on your street is because rent's are probably going up too fast for the area. The reason for you'r friends quaint mainstreet is because it's dead and the only thing that can survive there is specialty stores. What's the question here?

[Crawford]

IMO, Alexandria, VA can't be compared to Queens.

In Alexandria, the street-level retail is very limited and "cutesy." There are no chains because the chains prefer to be in the big shopping complexes.

The real shopping happens in auto-dominated malls and shopping centers, just like most places in the U.S.

In Queens, most of the retail is along pedestrian and transit-oriented retail strips, which generally have a mix of both chains and independents.

[Cirrus]

There are *plenty* of chains on King Street in Alexandria. Your friend is living in a dream world if he hasn't seen them.

Accepting chains is just a necessary part of remaining relevant as anything other than a tourist trap.

[citizensf]

There are *plenty* of chains on King Street in Alexandria. Your friend is living in a dream world if he hasn't seen them.

Accepting chains is just a necessary part of remaining relevant as anything other than a tourist trap.

Chains may be the de facto part of many Americans' everyday shopping but they aren't the only solution (I know you know this, but this thread seems to be a little too focused on the inevitability of chains).

I've lived in neighborhoods where everyday shopping needs have been met largely by mom and pop stores. A neighborhood can still maintain its relevance to the local residents based on the *mix* of retailing activities (regardless of whether or not those retailing activities are met by national chains or a local small business). That being said, I'll readily admit that for many Americans, chains are currently providing these necessary everyday services. But for my money, I'll have my cake and eat it too in a "quaint" neighborhood that cultivates a lot of small, locally owned shops and services. But a hybrid, is probably the most realistic scenario in this day and age (and maybe that's what you're getting at).

Fwiw, a few of the things I find "essential" for this ideal of a relevant/working commercial/retail zone (your mileage might vary!):
* Grocery store
* Specialty food stores (bakery, cheese shop, deli, butcher, etc. - whatever you can get out of this category is good)
* Restaurants w/ range of cuisines and mix of casual and fancier places
* Book store
* Hairdresser
* Medical services (dentist, eye doctor, etc.)
* Cafe/coffee joint
* Dessert place or ice cream parlor
* Laundromat
* Gift shop/card shop (yeah, sometimes you need to buy a little gift)
* Flower shop
* Transit station/hub
* Full service bank (not just atms)
* Radio shack (now there's a chain that is EVERYWHERE -- this is tongue in cheek btw)
* Hardware store
* Drug store
* Small Five&Dime/Variety store (mishmash of odds and ends - love these places)
* Gym/fitness center
* Gas station (maybe an auto repair shop too)
* Post office
* Library
* Park

(am I missing anything big?)

Oh, and if you're in San Francisco, every neighborhood needs its Marijuana Dispensary (I swear I've never been more than 5 blocks away from one in this city).

[J. Will]

The main retail street 1/2 block from my apartment is just about perfect. It has lots of independent boutiques, second-hand clothing stores, etc. that sell "unique stuff". But I also have multiple 24-hour convenience/grocery stores, a drug store, and a small hardware store within a 5-minute walk. And the built form is flawless. There is not a single parking lot or driveway along the main street, and the only gap in the retail streetwall is a single church (which also fronts the sidewalk).

The best retail streets have lots of independents with some major chains mixed in. The important thing though is the built form (no parking lots, no driveways, etc.).

[Crawford]

There are *plenty* of chains on King Street in Alexandria. Your friend is living in a dream world if he hasn't seen them.

Accepting chains is just a necessary part of remaining relevant as anything other than a tourist trap.

Ok, but not "daily living" chains. I doubt there are many (or any) hardware stores, supermarkets, department stores, etc. along King.

Most of the retailers, whether chain or independent tend to serve weekend visitors and the like, not neighbors on foot or transit. There will be Thai places, knick knack stores, Starbucks and the like, but you probably won't find a shoe repair place or a local butcher.

[krudmonk]

Perhaps his expectations were rooted more in the fact that it was NYC than a walkable main street.

[dchan]

I'm actually doing a paper about City Planning that includes this issue. What exactly is the "walkable Main Street" and what should it include?

From my research so far, the idea of the quaint Main Street with only boutiques and small shops and cafe's is an unnatural one. What do I mean by unnatural? By that, I mean somebody, whether it was a politician or a local resident or even a developer has led an outcry to create a "walkable Main Street" where no modern chain stores exist because it was what worked back in the old days. In my view, it was a conservative backlash against the increasing migration towards suburbs and the growing crime rate and diminishing stores/restaurants within inner cities.

Well, like it or not, a lot has changed since those "good ole days." The last I checked, cars outnumber the U.S. population by over 2 to 1; people no longer travel much by mass transit anymore as they once did. The cheapest items and the most variety can be found not in downtown areas but in mega chain stores in suburban shopping malls; they have essentially the same strengths that chain stores in downtowns in the early 1900's til WWII had: a large variety of stores and products.

So IMO, the idea of the quaint downtown is nothing more than a pipe dream for the conservative thinker who still believes that since quaint downtowns worked so well back in those days, it must still work well today. Of course, he might not think this way at all, since the old downtowns of the 20's and 30's were not exclusively composed of boutiques and small shops/restaurants: they were, as mentioned above, composed of chain stores as well as smaller stores. My guess is that he may have been brought up with the idea that this was the way downtowns should be because he's too young to remember it any other way.

Personally, I think this idea of the quaint downtown to be nothing more than a way to draw tourists or a way for residents to feel better about themselves that their own towns/cities don't have a downtown composed of chain stores and such. I think that Austin St. is a very successful downtown, having been there myself, because the population can support it and it has an interesting variety of chains and small shops/restaurants.

Will the same ideas work in Alexandria? Probably not, since it does not have a large enough population to support it. Also, factor in the expensive rental expenses that I would imagine Alexandria to have. And finally, factor in the suburban shopping mall mentality that the people in this country as a whole still have.

Will this mentality change? It might. Our shopping mentality changed from going downtown to shop to going to suburban shopping malls to shop because developers and business owners decided to move us that way: we were increasingly moving to the suburbs and we had more cars. Things can change just like that, but it takes time. So for the meantime, don't make any concrete ideas of what the "walkable Main Street" "should be".

[the urban politician]

^ Thanks for your insight. And for the most part, I agree with you 100%

[aaron38]

TUP, I think I know what your friend is driving at. I don't think it's "quaintness", so much as a hatred of corporate America.
If it had been the exact same restaurant with the exact same menu but was named 'Roslyn's Cafe', I don't think you'd have heard a complaint.

What I see is this: In the suburban wasteland landscape, the "mobius strip mall" to quote Rolling Stone, what we desire is a sense of place, a uniqueness. A spot that isn't like everywhere else in America.

Why do you think Chicagoans got so up in arms over the sale of Marshall Field's to Macy's? It destroyed a sense of place, moved State St. one step closer to Anywhere USA.

At the end of the day, to the car oriented culture, shopping malls are convinient. So if you have two Friday's, and one is at a mall with convinient parking and one is in a downtown area where you have to park and walk 3 blocks, which one do you think people are going to go to? Why make the effort if it doesn't give a different result?
And yes, that does hurt Main St, but I don't know what to do about it.

In the end, the best way to help Main St is to get the residential density up, becuase people will shop at the closest spot. So if they live on Main St, they'll shop there.

[Goody]

Downtown Portsmouth has a few national chains, right now it’s just Gap and Banana Republic, the local stores are great. But I feel as though a few more national chains would make downtown even more completive. As long as they don’t alter the buildings negatively or put local businesses under then I'm okay with them.

[JackStraw]

When I moved back to Pburgh, I was choosing between Shadyside, and Squirrel Hill. I went to Squirrel hill after many comparisons.

Squirrel Hill: A large local downtown area, walkable, with everything from a hardware shop, to a fancy wine bar, local theater, library, to bars, to restaurants, to delis and bakeries, pizza shops, sub shops, but a grocery store chain, a boston market, and a subway.

Shadyside: Nothing but boutique shoping that I would never step in. There are chains, but they are the expensive clothing store chains I have no business in. There are a few good bakeries and restaurants like a great Thai place. However, for what I use there I just walk or take a bus.

I choosed squirrel hill. Walnut st. In shadyside has nothing functional, as Squirrel hill's business district is fully functional even if it has chains.

[tackledspoon]

I'm with you on this one.
See, I grew up in a town that had a strict "no chain" ordinance for its main street and, well, guess where nobody shops? Downtown. There were plenty of quaint little shops and classy restaurants that did just fine, but as a result of the lack of everyday uses the downtown is not "sleepy" and "quaint." Main street is clogged with the cars of residents attempting to get to other parts of town/other towns, where they can actually get a cheap meal and do their grocery shopping at a reasonable price.

[kenratboy]

Carmel, CA is a great example. Chain stores are things such as a Ferrari Shop :p - but I would say 95% of the stores are their own thing. It is very refreshing to see things that are actually DIFFERENT.

I do like shopping centers that have both. For example, a strip mall with a nice grocery store as an anchor, and a bunch of small, non-chain stores surrounding it. The benefit is the grocery store gets humans to the center, and that drives traffic for the small shops.

Problem is, our country will soon consist of about 50 stores owned by about 10 companies, and everything will be the same.

I would bet most people get most of their stuff from bland shopping centers in bland stores, but it is nice to see and experience different shops.

Look how fascinated we (Americans) are with going to a different city and researching that special hole-in-the-wall restaurant for some new food. This doesn't seem to carry over to other stuff.

[the urban politician]

I'm with you on this one.
See, I grew up in a town that had a strict "no chain" ordinance for its main street and, well, guess where nobody shops? Downtown. There were plenty of quaint little shops and classy restaurants that did just fine, but as a result of the lack of everyday uses the downtown is not "sleepy" and "quaint." Main street is clogged with the cars of residents attempting to get to other parts of town/other towns, where they can actually get a cheap meal and do their grocery shopping at a reasonable price.

^ I'm venturing to guess that this town you grew up in was somewhere in either Long Island or Connecticut?

[tackledspoon]

^ I'm venturing to guess that this town you grew up in was somewhere in either Long Island or Connecticut?

Northern Jersey, the third point of the triangle of doom that surrounds New York City.
Don't get me wrong- my town and the towns around it have done some very decent things to prevent huge subdivision developments, but they've definitely fouled up our main street pretty badly.
I meant to type more when I submitted that post, but I was much too hungover to think straight.
My town is Chatham, New Jersey. It's considered one of the best places in the country to raise a child and was recently named "#1 Town For Families" by New Jersey magazine. The funny thing about this is that nobody under the age of 30 has ever spent more than an hour in the quaint downtown that has so often captured the hearts of the magazine ranking community. Instead, most of my friends and I hung out in a nearby town called Summit. It was no great shakes either, but as suburbs go, they did a much better job planning their downtown. There were a lot of local boutiques and upscale eateries similar to the ones in my town, but they also had a few chains (Bagels 4 U, Baskin Robbins, Dunkin Donuts, Tito's Burritos, a local record chain, an A&P, and (gasp, moan hurl) a starbucks). What I noticed was that, not only did these chains provide kids with a place that they could afford to eat, but they also encouraged the growth of local restaurants that often served as popular hang-outs for youth. There were two great diners, a cheap bar & grill type place and a few very decent coffee shops, bakeries and the best ice cream in North Jersey.

Part of the genius of Summit's planning was requiring that all structures in a certain zone front on the sidewalk, forcing parking to back alleys, side streets and garages. This way, they were able to have chain stores without having the negative elements that generally come with chain stores (lone, inefficient buildings in seas of parking). Now, it's by no means an ideal downtown, but it functions a shit-lot better than Chatham's. Madison and Morristown, NJ have similar set-ups in their downtowns and I can honestly say that I have a lot fond more memories of these surrounding towns than I do my own. They gave a 16 year old a lot more to look at than quaint, sleepy downtown Chatham.

[LSyd]

i miss the days when main street was full of rundown theatres showing exxxploitation cinema, hookers, bums and businesspeople ;)

i think there should be a happy mix of pragmatic chain stores (CVS, Subway, "yuppie clothing chain," "Media store anchor," etc...) and boutiques and locals. i've seen this in plenty of cities and it seems to work well; DC, Charleston, Dallas, Baltimore.

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