[apetrella802]

when i first say phillyskyline yesterday i posted a new "gentlemen's agreement", i.e., NO BUILDINGS SHORTER THAN CITY HALL" but now i think it should be NO BUILDINGS SHORTER THAN THE COMCAST CENTER!

Since this building's model shows a somewhat complex and asymmetrical design i hope our architectural reporter takes some time to understand it before commenting on it. Back in nov 2004 i saw the CC model in the LPT office at 17th and JFK across from the Corner Bakery. The model was regal and majestic but almost all the illustrations depicted a bloated top heavey look. The model was right , the illustrations were wrong.

i think most people have a little problem with the hotel section that seems to look a little awkwared and arbitrary but we'll see what happens. Of course i feel like this is so wonderful that any criticism is unessesary and it will take time to have it all sink in. The American Commerce Center website does scan the image from a number of different angles, which is what an observer will have to do after its built. It needs to be seen like a piece of sculpture somewhat like the CIRA center since it doen't have just four elevations, i.e., NSEW.

[Swinefeld]

Leave to Philebrity to post something this silly...

Comcast Sex Toy About To Be Bested By 89 Story American Commerce “French Tickler”

Jesus H. Christ, just get a look at that thing, will ya? It’s the model for the American Commerce Center, to be at 1800 Arch St. And make no mistake: For at least five minutes after it’s built — ACC breaks ground in summer ‘09 — it will, without a doubt be the tallest building in the city. And unlike the blunt force of the Comcast Sex Toy, this one seems to have her pleasure in mind: It’s stylish, opens out on to the street with a hotel lobby, and is way green. LEED Gold-green, in fact. Says Bradley Maule, who just broke this wide open:

It’s very early in the process. […] But to weigh the siting, the favorable pedestrian experience, and the choice of an acclaimed (read: expensive) architect is to understand that American Commerce Center is a very serious proposal, a very serious statement about Philadelphia’s sense of place.

Way more details at Brad’s site. But for now, let us just say: Like whoa.

PhillySkyline: Suck It, Comcast!

[fastdupree]

Holly crap! Where the heck was I when this news came about. I am very happy to hear about this monster. Love it or hate it, this is great news for philly. Once it's built, I won't have to go to NY city anymore just to get my skyscraper fix. We should 100% build this thing.

[jrdizzy]

I like the spire too. Kind of blends in with Lib 1 and 2, and Mellon. As a rule I like flat roofs better on skyscrapers, but I wish CC was designed a little similar the the other big four.

The Acc's resemblence to the origional freedom tower reminds me of how the freedom tower"s present design is a little like an earlier CC design.

[Phil_North]

WOW! Now this building will definitely block my view of Unversity City while I'm at work, but this project is awesome! What I love most about it is that it gives Philadelphia a true signature building. Liberty One was that building for 15 plus years. As much as I like the Comcast Center and just love working in it, it doesn't stand out like a true signature building should. ACC looks like that building! I really hope this gets built. An observation deck would also be a very nice touch should they decide to put one there.

[Jularc]

:tup: The Philadelphia skyline keeps growing up! :cool: I really want to see more renderings.

[TheOldMan]

I like the spire too. Kind of blends in with Lib 1 and 2, and Mellon. As a rule I like flat roofs better on skyscrapers, but I wish CC was designed a little similar the the other big four.

The Acc's resemblence to the origional freedom tower reminds me of how the freedom tower"s present design is a little like an earlier CC design.

i completely agree. a mild pyramidal cap would be perfect. nothing like Mellon Center or Liberty Place, but subtle; much like the original sandstone-banded design.

[Chazly7]

Good lord....

I know I have only posted a few times, and it's been a while since I have posted as well, but I still check in almost everyday. I missed out for two days, and come back to this. I am very pleased.

I like the design. I have to admit that I was unsure of the base (hotel?) area, at first. But it is starting to grow on me. This is a long way from hoping Comcast was 25 foot taller. It's also great to see another surface lot (hopefully) bite the dust. There is so much going on in the city, as well as in the near future....... I love it all.


PS: It is about time we break the 1,000 foot barrier. Breaking that barrier might be in the same veign as building above Billy Penns hat. Maybe a few more supertalls will follow suit, sort of like how many of our current talls followed 1LP.

[PhillyRising]

I wonder if Comcast is going to have some offices in this new building...it looks like the plot they own to build the second tower is being filled in with a fountain (see Phillyskyline.com) which is more permanent than the grass originally proposed. They might have known about this project since its inception and snuck in there. That's complete utter speculation...no truth to that whatsoever. Just me guessing, so if that's the case maybe their egos won't be as crushed.

Good point...why build a second smaller building as was proposed when you can occupy the two biggest towers in town.

[Plokoon11]

AHHHHHH! HOLY! MY EYES! Bye bye comcast center, time to move on with this big thing. So lets see, if this monster gets built, Atlanta, LA, NYC, and chicago might be surpassed? AND, for a short while our city will have the tallest building in USA?

[Philly-Drew]

Wow. What a great thing to find. Thank you Brad for posting it!

I like the hotel portion of this very early rendering and I like the way it opens up from so many angles as shown on the website. In my opinion the commanding height of the hotel is perfect for that area as it almost lends itself to the skyline as another building. I think that it looks a lot better than how Lib2 sticks out on one side (overall I think Lib2 is a great building).

I also like the spire and I wonder about the thickness of the spire. Can anyone estimate the thickness of the spire from the bottom, to the middle to the tip? I wonder about it because HOW HOT WOULD IT BE IF THERE WAS AN ELEVATOR TAKING YOU UP TO AN OBSERVATION AREA IN THE BASE OF THE SPIRE?

WOW. Uhh.. ahh.. oh… ok.. Wow.. That felt good. Sorry. :P

Anyhow, I can’t help but to wonder what the percentage is that this tower gets built. I think the real questions that need to be answered are:
1) How likely is it that an anchor tenant can be found?
2) Does anyone have any ideas as to which big companies may be coming up on the end of their lease and would consider the move to this city and to this building?

I wonder what companies might make a good suitor for this building. If a lead tenant can be signed up then I would think that the likelihood of this building getting built is extremely high. If not, then the odds that it is would be built are much lower. At least the financing is already secured. Many times financing is the biggest hurdle with ambitious projects.

[liat91]

Loose the spire, it then would really look awesome and
still be what? 1200'

[skyscraper]

Since this building's model shows a somewhat complex and asymmetrical design i hope our architectural reporter takes some time to understand it before commenting on it.


my prediction about what inga will say about it:
1-she will love the fact that it is built on the site of what is now and has for a long time been a surface parking lot
2- she will love the fact that all parking is underground
3- she will hold the developer's feet to the fire to make sure it is as engaging at street level as they claim it will be, with all the retail and plaza amenities
4- she will hate the design of the hotel, saying it is a slapped-on after-thought
5- she will hate the fact that it will be taller than any building in new york except the freedom tower but will hide this hatred by citing the delicate. gossamer quality of our quaint quaker city and the softness of the real estate market as being unfit for such a development, especially with other major projects on the drawing boards.
6- she will call upon the zoning board to not lift its FAR restriction on this site so that it won't shroud the entire neighborhood in shadow. there are three major skyscrapers in that immediate neighborhood (comcast, mellon, and bell atlantic), so adding another will just contribute to the darkening at street level.
7- she will pay lip service to the LEED certification as at least economically if not environmentally responsible.
8- she will demand a thorough master plan that this is integrated into, and will defer all major design decisions to whatever neighborhood group claims is in charge of the neighborhood.

I agree with the above points, except for #5, 6 and 8. but those are the type of things she has said about other projects, and are the reason I can't stand her. I am not against having a master plan, but surrendering sovereignty to neighborhood groups is nonsense. they can have some input, but they should not get final say because they are not design professionals.

[BuildItUp]

I love this building, please don't spoil this forum by inviting INGA to this discussion. She is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with this. Thank you.

[Austinlee]

First supertall proposal for the state of Pennsylvania! Who would've guessed it would happen in the states second city instead of Pittsburgh? not me.

[skyscraper]

I love this building, please don't spoil this forum by inviting INGA to this discussion. She is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with this. Thank you.

agreed that she is irrelavent, but you know at some point she is going to try to make herself relevant, so I was just trying to beat her to the punch and save her the trouble of chiming in.

[skyscraper]

First supertall proposal for the state of Pennsylvania! Who would've guessed it would happen in the states second city instead of Pittsburgh? not me.

nice try.

[bluemartini]

Is it just me, or does the spire look like it is giving the middle finger to NYC?

[williamphilapa]

Awesome news... a 1500 ft tower proposal on my birthday :)

We need a bunch of forumers to do renderings now from every angle of the city...we have over a year to wait.

As far as the design, I dig it.

Weird how it is so close to Comcast and both would/will have so much silver glass.

I wish we would see some green or red tinted glass.
Red would be cooler on a smaller tower..around 500-600 footer. I have a feeling others do not share the same opinion though :)

[volguus zildrohar]

It seems as if Philadelphia kinda vaults ahead when it comes to building highrises. For decades this city sat with a "crew cut", flat-topped skyline. Then over the course of 7 years, the skyline transformed into a forest of peaks and points. Another decade of so and buildings sprout higher and farther from the center than they had before. Making up for lost time in a way?

Comcast Center certainly helps give me a sense of the scale of this mammoth project. Center City has very few big, wide streets and generally the biggest buildings in town all line up along some wide thoroughfare. Comcast Center essentially does not and ACC certainly won't. This generally quiet stretch of Arch Street, close and yet so far from the traditional heart of Center City, is now the epicenter of the most ambitious works to come downtown...ever.

[Austinlee]

For decades this city sat with a "crew cut", flat-topped skyline.

Yeah, and who can forget that embarrassing time period when the Philly skyline had a Nike symbol shaved into its scalp.

[PhillyKid126]

The Acc's resemblence to the origional freedom tower reminds me of how the freedom tower"s present design is a little like an earlier CC design.

JRDizzy, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I was wondering if anyone else was thinking the same thing.

[Plokoon11]

Photo from Phillyskyline.com, edited by me. Pretty amazing. stickish render.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9038/accrenderka2.jpg

The picture makes me think: Lib1, and 2 are left out while CC, BA and the new tower hang in another group.

[PhillyKid126]

Oh, one more thing, does anyone get the philadelphia business journal? A woman in my office gets it and the front page yesterday had a very cool rendering of the tower. Think about the early renderings of the comcast center from 76 and put ACC there. I'm surprised no one found it and posted it here.

[Don098]

Awesome news... a 1500 ft tower proposal on my birthday :)

We need a bunch of forumers to do renderings now from every angle of the city...we have over a year to wait.

As far as the design, I dig it.

Weird how it is so close to Comcast and both would/will have so much silver glass.

I wish we would see some green or red tinted glass.
Red would be cooler on a smaller tower..around 500-600 footer. I have a feeling others do not share the same opinion though :)

Have you seen the building's website (http://www.acctower.com/) where you can watch a little promotional video showing the multicolored glass around the hotel cut-outs? See what you think. As much as I love the mirror-blue glass of Comcast Center, Cira Center and both Liberties, I'd like to see a little more diversity in the skyline, so what do people think about white tinted glass? Can you even get white-tinted glass? Maybe a gray-colored glass would help keep the building looking like the model (which I love btw)? The green certification really needs to be adhered to however, and exterior color alterations will dramatically affect the building's reflectivity and subsequent energy balance. I wonder how the engineers plan to heat and cool the building?

[Dr. Taco]

^ nice, dono

they definitely need to build this thing, although the spire is a tad bit lame. I'd rather something solid white or something (i'm no designer, so don't ask me for ideas), cuz the way its just a jagged extension of the building looks kind of weird. but the huge cutout with multi-colored windows at the base is a must, and so is all this height. I think a city as big and old as Philly deserves a supertall (or four? ;))

[tua21506]

Is anyone making a diagram yet for this....I checked the Philadelphia diagram page and i didn't see it..it does however appear under the construction and proposed diagram section, but without a picture yet...

[aluminum]

^People didn't even know about this proposal's existence a few days ago.
Anyways I think its a great proposal for Philly. Although, the thick spire seems kinda odd.

[tua21506]

Here is a youtube video of a local newscast someone made about ACC...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_o69vqJtJRI

[SJPhillyBoy]

I am still trying to digest the impact of such a supertall mega-structure on Philadelphia's beautiful skyline.

Photos courtesy 6abc.com website

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6019618

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/gallery?section=news/local&id=6019714&photo=1

Pictured is a model of the proposed American Commerce Center.
http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-1.jpg

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-2.jpg

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-3.jpg

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-4.jpg

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-5.jpg

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-6.jpg

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-7.jpg

BTW, Great commentary by Swinefeld on the 6abc website forum. He really gives it to some very ignorant people.

[McBane]

I just can't post in here without repeating how awesome this is! the spire isn't great but it's not that bad either. plus spire aside, the (roof) top is different from our other talls that either get narrow or are flat topped, this one is sorta both. do we need another spire? eh i'm not complaining.

my wishlist: ACC, BVT, something huge on the girard block, cira south (both phases), mandeville and 1440 chestnut. plus 1601 vine and parkway22 and holy crap! 10 years enough time?

seriously though, anyone think that, once built, this will spur development further west?

[srr]

I'm a high school senior from the burbs who's going to Drexel next year. I think it's awesome that I'm going to see this beast built from start to finish. I should take a photo every day from the same angle and make a timelapse or something.

[Texas Tuff]

Congratulations Philly, that is a very impressive looking tower. I also really like that podium with the huge hole in it. That is going to look very cool from the ground level.

[scalziand]

I wonder if the hole in the hotel portion is ment to help preserve the views of the neighboring buildings. If so that's pretty thoughtful of the architect and might help diffuse NIMBY opposition.

[KillerIman]

its so fitting for nyc's younger brother!

build this shit yo!

[volguus zildrohar]

scalziand, I'm sure that was some kind of intentional.

[giallo]

Decent design.

The more I look at it the more it looks almost identical to the Shanghai International Financial Center's second tower (sans spire, of course).


http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/wpvi/cms_exf_2007/news/local/031408-imagecreator-american-commerce-center-7.jpg


http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9156/lujiazuiworldfinancecenterdefi.jpg

[bryson662001]

scalziand, I'm sure that was some kind of intentional.
The only building whose views are saved is the Sterling and people who live in rental apartments don't normally have much clout.......except it also gives the hotel better views. That is alot of building to shoehorn onto that small plot and Cuthbert st is only a single lane between the two buildings. I guess I'll go ahead and post one too.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/bryson662001/comcast_uc2316.jpg

[slow-v6]

seriously though, anyone think that, once built, this will spur development further west?

I hope so..

[volguus zildrohar]

We seem to be overlooking the big issue on this one:

Will it have an observation deck builted?!?!?!!

[slow-v6]

I love this proposal. I love the hotel part being around 500' to fill in so area in the skyline. I love the main building and the spire. I think if this is built that there is going to be a need for more 700-1000 footers to fill in areas in the skyline.. It might look weird at first but I thought the same about comcast center when I first saw those pictures.. This with the River City behind and Cira towers!! Talk about height...

[blkrose]

I like this design, :D hope it sticks close all the way through! The spire gives it an Emmirates Tower (Dubai) effect which to me is modern, progressive and transcends time (flavor of the decade)! IMOP

Question: In the CC thread there was talk about height limits due to railroad tracks, Shouldn't the same concerns be imposed here? Isn't the reason that CC sits back form JFK was due to rails underneath? The tower seems to take up the entire block form JFK to Arch street.

This is such a nice design , too bad its clustered so that the full effect can't be fully apprieciated, that hole on Market street would be better or the parking lot at the end of arch street would be perfect! Canyons are nice but soo 70'ish! Space it out lets have a good look at ya! :notacrook: :cheers: :tup:

[volguus zildrohar]

The Regional Rail tunnnel has no impact on this tower. The Sterling is built over the tunnel half of the block so the ACC can go as high as it wants with no impact. That's why CC is pushed back from JFK.

The skyline is starting to get a bit of the Toronto syndrome - all the tallest buildings clustered in a relatively small parcel with one big long dong poking up. Of course the dong is a lot closer.

[stormkingfan]

When I found this thread, I was amazed at how many responses were squeezed into such a small time window. Obviously a white-hot topic!

Now, I saw that this is a 1,210' bldg (sans spire) with only 63 floors. After doing the math, that's a whooping 19' per floor. I can understand wanting the feeling of roominess in an office space, but, jeez, I'm picturing a bunch of giants milling about in the building.

Examples of good average floor-to-ceiling heights, I think, can be found at:

Chicago's Aon Center, 13' 8" (1,136'/83 fl.);
Toronto's First Bank Tower, 13' 7" (978'/72 fl.);
LA's US Bank Tower, 13' 11" (1,018'/73 fl.);
Empire State Bldg., 12' 3" (1,250'/102 fl.) (although, 12 feet for an office floor, but the EMS was a very well-built tower)

Something like 14' 3", I don't think would be unreasonable. That said, if you divide 14' 3" into 1,210, you get an 85-storey building.

But then again, would there be need for that much space?

[stormkingfan]

Where I said that the EMS was a well-built bldg. I meant to say, IS a well-built bldg. Just wanted to clarify this, esp. for those of you in NY.

[Ninjawho]

We seem to be overlooking the big issue on this one:

Will it have an observation deck builted?!?!?!!

Maybe an elevator to the top of the spire!!11!!!!!11!!



In regards to the 19' floor to ceiling...its an LEED building...for the last time geez....that's why there are so few stories.

[williamphilapa]

I-95 south.
http://aycu02.webshots.com/image/49521/2002027075187860332_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002027075187860332)
Not sure who took the original photo.

[PhillyRising]

We seem to be overlooking the big issue on this one:

Will it have an observation deck builted?!?!?!!

:haha:

...and if they don't....I trust you will give every person your famous look if they keep asking that question.

[stormkingfan]

In regards to the 19' floor to ceiling...its an LEED building...for the last time geez....that's why there are so few stories.[/QUOTE]


Well, excu-u-u-use me!!! Now, maybe I didn't have enough time to read everything in this thread to be able to find out what LEED is, but that's no reason to be cutting up with me. We're all interested in the same thing, so let's try to get along and enjoy this thread together, alright? <holding hand out for handshake>

[Ninjawho]

In regards to the 19' floor to ceiling...its an LEED building...for the last time geez....that's why there are so few stories.


Well, excu-u-u-use me!!! Now, maybe I didn't have enough time to read everything in this thread to be able to find out what LEED is, but that's no reason to be cutting up with me. We're all interested in the same thing, so let's try to get along and enjoy this thread together, alright? <holding hand out for handshake>


I'm not mad...its just that that question has been asked at least once per page.

LEED is the green standard for buildings now. Large windows = lots of sunlight = less energy use.

[theWatusi]

The New Philadelphia, Raising the bar!
http://aycu02.webshots.com/image/49521/2002027075187860332_rs.jpg


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/10/28/business/28adco.583.jpg
source (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/10/28/business/28adco.583.jpg)

[Don098]

Now, I saw that this is a 1,210' bldg (sans spire) with only 63 floors. After doing the math, that's a whooping 19' per floor. I can understand wanting the feeling of roominess in an office space, but, jeez, I'm picturing a bunch of giants milling about in the building.

Examples of good average floor-to-ceiling heights, I think, can be found at:

Something like 14' 3", I don't think would be unreasonable. That said, if you divide 14' 3" into 1,210, you get an 85-storey building.

But then again, would there be need for that much space?

I'm not an engineer, but one of my friends is an architectural engineer, so is his father, and his girlfriend was a team leader for the solar decathlon in DC, so I know a little about green building designs and materials. I also majored in climatology as part of my geography degree, and we spent time looking at sustainable development. Having said that, I think the floor heights have to do with the green certification. Higher ceilings allow larger windows and therefore more natural light to heat the building. It will save the tenants enormous amounts of money due to increased efficiency, and it's a vital component of sustainable development that will become the top priority for builders within the next decade. We simply know more now than we did when those buildings you listed were built. Also, higher ceilings feel less claustrophobic so there is definitely a positive psychological impact on the people working in there.

[Don098]

Whoops, I didn't mean to beat a dead horse. Sorry guys, i just read stormkingfans post and wrote.

[Dannyboy25]

Is this an exact copy of the early Freedom Tower renderings??

[Philly-Drew]

Volgus, actually I had mentioned having an observation deck in the base of the spire way back on page 6 of this thread. ;)

Regarding LEED certification:
A building designing can be “scored” it as it relates to the LEED certification. The highest score you can get is 69 points. The certifications work like this for new construction:
LEED certified: 26 – 32 points
LEED Silver certified: 33 – 38 points
LEED Gold certified: 39 – 51 points
LEED Platinum: 52 – 69 points

A building can obtain points based on things like renewable energy, passive and active solar design, photovoltaics (converting light into electricity) and other technologies.

Passive solar design is used to sustain a comfortable building temperature during the entire day regardless of where the sun is. This science is a bit more detailed then you would normally think. For example, the technology used to make the ACC LEED certified in Philadelphia may be quite different then the technology used for the same building in Miami, or Las Vegas. Positioning, placement, size, normal climate temperature all go into this.

For those that are interested, here is a cool link that explains how the use of concrete can add to obtaining LEED certification. ("http://www.concretethinker.com/Papers.aspx?DocId=249”) It includes some detailed links that explain some more about the point system. It is very interesting reading.

I think that the Comcast building may the tallest LEED certified building in the US. The American Commerce Center would certainly be among the tallest LEED certified buildings globally but I do not know where it would place. It would be interesting to see something like a top 10 tallest LEED certified buildings. Anyone? Anyone?

[Joey D]

Wow.. I dont check the site for a few days and look what happens!

I love the height of the new building, but we are going to need more than a few new fillers to balance out the skyline.

Go Phila!

[BuildItUp]

Is this an exact copy of the early Freedom Tower renderings??
Why would this be an exact copy of the FT? They do looked somewhat similar but not exact copy. The current design of the FT also looked like one of the original renderings for One Pennsylvania Plaza, aka Comcast Center. As Giallo points out, this building also looked like the Shanghai Int'l Finance Centre. My point is buildings look like one another and I really don't care if it is an exact copy. I am just happy that is proposed in my back yard, so to speak. :)

[Plokoon11]

I feel sorry for Verizon Tower, before CCT, it seemed to be a big buildings, than once CCT completed it shrunk sort of speak, due to the size of CCT. Now poor VT has this huge ACC pop up 2x taller than CCT and looks like a tiny building now.

[stormkingfan]

I see what you mean, 11.

I'm thinking back to the end of Rocky V where they show b&w pics as they roll the credits. Like, in the beginning, they show Rocky on the steps with 1975 Center City in the background. At the end, same shot with Rocky and the kid, 1990 Center City.... Verizon Tower is off to the side and you're like, "WOAH, that thing's huge!!!

[stormkingfan]

I'm not mad...its just that that question has been asked at least once per page.

LEED is the green standard for buildings now. Large windows = lots of sunlight = less energy use.

Okay ninjawho, everything's cool here. And thanks for the in-a-nutshell explanation.

[gmny]

maybe the floors don't go all the way up to the slanted roof. making the highest occupied floor at 950' or so... that might explain it! 15 feet or so per floor.

[pjpmk]

I too was almost knocked outta my chair at the sight of it, but once I got over the initial arousal from the size, I have to admit that the design isn't exactly innovative or interesting and seems to be little more than a bizarrely understated amalgamation of what's "in" as opposed to really going at any length to accomplish anything unique or memorable. If you're going to build a height of such iconic proportion, shouldn't it also be of iconic style? Let's face it, at 50% taller than Comcast, it's likely to be tops for a long, long time... and it ain't as iconic as One Liberty, much less ESB or Chicago Spire to which it has been compared. Yea, I admit, Comcast Center is a little bland to me, but its respect to scale doesn't exactly mar the skyline, despite its design cues coming from your typical diner napkin dispenser. And while arbitrary angles are, for some reason, "in", at least Cira Center's pay tribute to and allude to the city center. Absent symmetry or style, i'm just stuck wondering "why?" Style that weak on a tower that tall is just an expression of Philly's famed inferiority complex. I give the same criticism to the Cira South renderings, if the courage is there to do it, why do it so half-heartedly? Do something interesting.

On the bright side, it still leaves South Philly with a good view of everyting!:D

[Chazly7]

I was thinking the same thing Watusi about the Cingular (AT&T) bars.

[Magnus1]

i hope philly gets this one too!

i dont know about that red & green checkered S#%$ at the bottom. i can look past it though.

[Thefigman]

Having secured financing is HUGE. After having Bear Sterns collapse this weekend, money is going to get herder and harder to find.

[BuildItUp]

Having secured financing is HUGE. After having Bear Sterns collapse this weekend, money is going to get herder and harder to find.

Every dogs has its day, Bear Stearns used to doled out huge bonuses to its employees. We'll i guess those days are finally over. Sorry for side track, the ACC is an awesome tower and thank goodness it is not finance by the credit market.

[srr]

Wow, ok, 1500 feet. Let's move on. When are we getting a 3000 footer?

[Plokoon11]

^ Thats just asking to much, and I think it would look awkward to look at the skyline, OLP 981ft, MB 8??ft, CCT 989ft? and then huge 3000ft Tower.

[Ninjawho]

I'm pretty sure he was joking...

I drove by 18th and Arch tonight and was looking at some of the buildings on arch across the street from the parking lot. Nothing really impressive...besides an ABP. I was thinking, if ACC gets built that block is so going to be transformed from the back end of Center City to the crown jewel...

[Nowhereman1280]

Having secured financing is HUGE. After having Bear Sterns collapse this weekend, money is going to get herder and harder to find.

No its not, money is oozing from every crack right now if you have decent credit and a solid proposition. Its just that most RE ventures in this market are [I]not/I] a solid proposition.

Money is so cheep right now its unbelievable...

[newboldphilly]

They're not really going to have 19' ceiling heights . . . are they?

I think a lot of the height/floor disparity is because of the 100' atrium, gardens, mechanical space, and the void that's been sketched out for the lower floors.

[highdensity32]

No its not, money is oozing from every crack right now if you have decent credit and a solid proposition. Its just that most RE ventures in this market are [I]not/I] a solid proposition.

Money is so cheep right now its unbelievable...

There is a lot of liquidity chasing quality investments, but I wouldn't say that money is oozing from every crack. Financing for this size project is beyond just a credit score and a solid proposition. Typically they would need one of the major investment banks to secure financing on this size deal. Apparently its not going to be Bear Stearns.

Fortunately, it sounds like there is pension money lined up for this project.

[slow-v6]

I feel sorry for Verizon Tower, before CCT, it seemed to be a big buildings, than once CCT completed it shrunk sort of speak, due to the size of CCT. Now poor VT has this huge ACC pop up 2x taller than CCT and looks like a tiny building now.

Its still a tall building!!

[McBane]

Plan for high-rise would put Philly on world's skyscraper map (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080317_Plan_for_high-rise_would_put_Philly_on_worlds_skyscraper_map.html)
By JOHN F. MORRISON
Philadelphia Daily News

morrisj@phillynews.com 215-854-5573

JUST WHEN you thought you were getting over the crick in your neck from looking up at Philly's skyscrapers, along comes a proposal that would be a real test of your flexibility.
There is a proposal afoot to build what would be the tallest building in the Western Hemisphere and the second-tallest building in the world when stacked against existing buildings, at 18th and Arch streets, in Center City.

The American Commerce Center, at a proposed 1,500 feet, would be 525 feet higher than the Comcast Center, now Philly's tallest building at 975 feet, a block away.

It would surpass the Empire State Building's 1,250 feet.

Phillyskyline.com waxed poetic in its description of what's happening:

"Your Philly skyline is about to change. About to incur a growth spurt. About to shatter any notion of Philadelphian reservedness, about to take A New Day A New Way to a whole other level."

Generating this excitement is the proposal to construct what would be a mix of retail, hotel and office space - and even a movie theater - in an $800 million, 2.2-million-square-foot skyscraper on what is now a parking lot.

The project would be built by Walnut Street Capital, a Philadelphia development company headed by Garrett Miller, which purchased the 1.5-acre lot from Verizon Communications Inc. of New York in October.

Does Philadelphia need another giant office building?

Miller thinks so. He said he believes there is a "void" of newer office stock in Center City that this building would fill and help attract corporate headquarters to the city, according to the Philadelphia Business Journal, which reported the tower story in its Friday print edition.

"I think Philadelphia has a need for a new office building," Miller told the Journal.

"It would be an iconic structure," he said. "This is something that Philadelphia has not seen before."

Nor much of the world. The building's height would be second only to Taipei 101, in Taiwan, at 1,670 feet.

There are broadcast towers that are taller: Canadian National Tower, Toronto, 1,815 feet; Ostankin, Moscow, 1,762; KFVS-TV, near Cape Girardeau, Mo., 1,677; and Oriental Pearl, Shanghai, 1,535. But even with several other taller buildings on the drawing board around the world, the proposed edifice would be part of a small club - and eco-friendly on top of that.

The American Commerce Center would be constructed with a U.S. Green Building Council LEED Gold Certification in mind.

A "green building" is one that increases the efficiency with which it uses resources - energy, water and materials, and which reduces its impact on human health and the environment.

The proposed building will need zoning adjustments, but it apparently has the backing of Mayor Nutter.

Through his press secretary, Doug Oliver, the mayor said he believes the building "would be a spectacular addition to Philadelphia's skyline. Sustainability efforts and building green continue to be hallmarks of this administration and the plans for this particular project are consistent with those goals."

The civic association that covers that neighborhood is watching and waiting.

"Obviously, when you drop something bigger than the World Trade Center into a neighborhood there are bound to be implications," said Rob Stuart, president of the Logan Square Neighborhood Association. "We will identify them and see if they can be mitigated. It is clearly out of scale with a lot of our neighboring buildings."*

Stuart said his association was briefed a week ago by the developer and his team and "we are formulating a task force to work on the project."

"There are going to be a lot of discussions. The design might change as a result."

The architect is Kohn Pedersen Fox, which designed the US Airways terminal at Philadelphia International Airport, Huntsman Hall, for the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, Mellon Bank Center, Two Logan Square, One Logan Square and the Four Seasons Hotel.

Gene Kohn, one of the partners, is a Philadelphian. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the '50s and once worked for prominent Philadelphia architect Vincent Kling.

The architects, with studios in New York, London and Shanghai, designed buildings - as yet unbuilt - that would be taller than American Commerce Center, in Shanghai and in Hong Kong.

The Shanghai World Financial Center will reach 1,588 feet, and the International Commerce Center in Hong Kong will be 1,608 feet.

Miller, of Walnut Street Capital, said financing is in place for the Philadelphia project but obstacles ahead include the need for zoning adjustments and attracting prospective tenants to occupy the office part of the building.

The Commerce Center will include a 26-story, 473-foot hotel with a garden on top. There would be three to six stories of retail space along Arch Street with a public garden facing the dome of the Arch Street Presbyterian Church.

There would be another garden on the sixth floor, between Arch and Cuthbert streets, overlooking the one below.

The 63-story office tower would be 1,210 feet to the lower portion of the roof, 1,500 feet to the top of a spire.

Miller said some potential tenants of the retail portion of the project include a high-end home store, restaurants, a gourmet food store, a health club and a movie theater with eight screens.

Russell Meddin, Democratic committeeman in the 19th Division of the 8th Ward, said, "It would be a signature building for Philadelphia."

Meddin, who is a board member of the Logan Square Neighborhood Association, said he found the design "fabulous."

While there were mixed feelings in the neighborhood when the Comcast building was proposed, it has been generally accepted, he said.

"This says wonderful things about Philadelphia," Meddin said.

The city has come a long way from the unwritten rule that no building should be higher than the statue of William Penn on City Hall - 548 feet.

There was even a legend that none of the city's sports teams would win a championship if that happened.

The late legendary developer Willard Rouse defied the legend and the old "gentleman's agreement" to keep Philadelphia flat and unexciting when he built the first skyscraper, One Liberty Place, in 1987 at 945 feet.

* the LSNA has a lot of nerve. out of scale? hello - it's right next to CC and BAT. and then he has the audacity to say "our neighborhood." well fuck you! it is not in your neighborhood and even if it was you don't own the neighborhood and you can't dictate what happens with a building that will affect our city's fortunes years after the current crop of crybabies of the LSNA are dead and gone. meanwhile, the building, the jobs, and the tax revenue generated by those jobs will be around far longer than these residents.

on the bright side this thing has way too much support for any major changes - especially in regards to height. although our dislike of nimby's isn't very widespread, if the LSNA is seen as delaying this tower in any way, i think it it will face a huge city-wide backlash. it's not like the casinos. this is something that everybody wants to see happen - at its current hieght - and i don't think that one civic group (representing a bordering neighborhood no less) will be able to stand in the way of this building. sorry LSNA, you're not going to find many symphasizers.

[KillerIman]

^^amen mcbane! i agree that they will be met with city/metro wide backlash.

i guess the good ol LSNA wouldn't go for the 3000 footer either ;)

[Swinefeld]

"Obviously, when you drop something bigger than the World Trade Center into a neighborhood there are bound to be implications," said Rob Stuart, president of the Logan Square Neighborhood Association. "We will identify them and see if they can be mitigated. It is clearly out of scale with a lot of our neighboring buildings."
Bigger than the World Trade Center? No, the WTC had more square footage and it was TWO supertall towers as opposed to ACC's one supertall. And the WTC had higher floors than the ACC Tower will. And what is is out of scale with? Comcast Center? If ignorance is bliss this guy must be on cloud nine.
"we are formulating a task force to work on the project."

"There are going to be a lot of discussions. The design might change as a result."
Ah, the call of the loony bird. Expect to hear all of the tired old reason of why this shouldn't be built. The "blue hairs" will have their say. I guess this gives them some sense of empowerment. And I love the formulation of a "task force" to mitigate or halt completely a project that is entirely within the CBD. Little do they know we have a task force of our own. :deal:

[c-bo]

I have to respectfully disagree with Ninjawho in re: ceiling heights and LEED points.

I know Comcast Center received LEED certification, but their larger than normal ceiling heights (15'-9" on lower floors; 17' on upper) were not a factor in the points that they sought. As far as solar energy goes, I was under the impression that buildings needed to use photovoltaic cells to harness and convert solar energy to actually get points. An increased external glass face could heat the space at times, but it could heat it too much and actually require more air conditioning to cool it down.

I think the high floor to ceiling heights are more about making the built space feel more comfortable. I would figure that greater floor to ceiling height also makes it easier to coordinate MEP above the ceiling. And a final factor that shouldn't be ignored is human ego. Everyone wants to build the tallest building and increasing the floor to ceiling height is one way to do it.

[Swinefeld]

You can do your part right now. Send an eFax to Councilman Clarke at Hallwatch.org and tell him that you support the ACC tower. Click on link below and send a quick message. It will only take a few minutes of your time.

http://www.hallwatch.org/profiles/council/clarke/faxbank/writeletter

[Complex01]

Wow that is amazing news. I just read about it right now. That is a tower. Very Kewl...

:wizard:

[Chriss]

I really like the hotel part, I'm withholding judgment on the spire.

But I worry about saying "who cares if it's ugly, it's 1500'!" The LAST thing this city needs is for something ugly to dominate the skyline for the next however many years. The architects have to take the time to do it right.

[bluemartini]

You can do your part right now. Send an eFax to Councilman Clarke at Hallwatch.org and tell him that you support the ACC tower. Click on link below and send a quick message. It will only take a few minutes of your time.

http://www.hallwatch.org/profiles/council/clarke/faxbank/writeletter

Great idea. I'm on it.

[volguus zildrohar]

That will all settle in soon. The design really isn't bad. It's just quite different for this city. That seems to be the new badge of modernity for cities around the world today - the crystalline spire in the middle of town.

[giamomj]

I hope it gets built sooner than later and doesn't change. The main tower reminds me of the glass, very triangular supertall (Bank of Hong Kong? Maybe it's a different bank name...) that I.M. Pei designed (and which was built) in the 90's.

The attached cube-like hotel complex with cut-outs ( which I REALLY like - green and red glass panels and all) reminds me of the silver-glass-sheathed "La Defense" in Paris: http://www.aviewoncities.com/paris/defense.htm. I do think it will help allay complaints from the NIMBYS - somewhat. How tough will it be for Garrett Miller to fight City Hall and get the height restriction changed - anyone actually know?

WE are gonna get a stunning skyline addition out of this.

Amen.


Gia

:notacrook:

[TheOldMan]

You can do your part right now. Send an eFax to Councilman Clarke at Hallwatch.org and tell him that you support the ACC tower. Click on link below and send a quick message. It will only take a few minutes of your time.

http://www.hallwatch.org/profiles/council/clarke/faxbank/writeletter

Just sent a fax to the Councilman. hopefully he will support this project. im sure he can see the benefits to the city far outweigh any potential concerns. It helps that the developers have ample financing and are also willing to work with the neighborhood to make the building pedestrian friendly and interactive with retail and restaurants.

[kraggman]

These NA's crack me up. They all seem to live in the 1800's. I'd love a cool building like ACC in my backyard. Of course I'm a biased SSP member too. :tup:

[Represent]

Wait wait wait wait....I know I don't check SSP regularly anymore but I checked philly.com and saw the article and rushed over here and saw this thread. Am I believing my eyes?!

[Ninjawho]

I just sent a fax into the Councilman as well...


I know this sounds kinda crazy and in reality probably won't happen, but wouldn't it be awesome if somehow the Philly members of SSP galvanized the pro development people to get this thing built. I know if the economics don't work for the ACC, (at this point it seems like all that is cool), no amount of protests or signatures is going to get it built. But if it just comes down to it getting built and the NIMBYs I think we should sock it to'em.

[SJPhillyBoy]

From the Philadelphia Daily News.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080317_Plan_for_high-rise_would_put_Philly_on_worlds_skyscraper_map.html

http://media.philly.com/images/G1TALL17C.jpg

Nice...Just Nice!!!

[theWatusi]

^ :sly: No BD? Not to mention FT and CS already under construction and will probably be complete before ACC, Im sure I am missing some.
Well at least it finally made the paper...

[Ninjawho]

Except it wouldn't be...

[highdensity32]

If you count buildings that are under construction at the moment, there are several that are already taller than the ACC proposal:

Burj Dubai - 2,600 ft? at completion
Shanghai World Financial Center - 1,614 ft

And some that are under construction and will be taller:
Chicago Spire - 2,000 ft
Freedom Tower - 1,776 ft

ACC would not be second tallest at completion, not even in the top five.


From the Philadelphia Daily News.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080317_Plan_for_high-rise_would_put_Philly_on_worlds_skyscraper_map.html

http://media.philly.com/images/G1TALL17C.jpg

Nice...Just Nice!!!

[Ninjawho]

this is the Daily News we're talking about. They're already 5 days late on the story...I don't think we can expect them to fact check either...

so frustrating...

[Swinefeld]

^ :sly: No BD? Not to mention FT and CS already under construction and will probably be complete before ACC, Im sure I am missing some.
Well at least it finally made the paper...
Maybe they meant it would the second tallest in the world if it were finished now? Or maybe they're just clueless. ;)

The eFax campaign to Darrell Clarke is going great so far. 15 faxes all strongly in favor of ACC Tower. Keep up the good work. :tup:

[kraggman]

Represent......your avatar is hilarious !!!!

[skyscraper]

Maybe they meant it would the second tallest in the world if it were finished now? Or maybe they're just clueless. ;)


it would in fact be the second tallest in the world if completed today. people who read the daily fishwrap don't think beyond today, so that's all they can relate to.
It would be irresponsible for inga to chime in about this right now. it's just a proposal, it's not architecture until it is built.

[apetrella802]

any architectural critic worth their salt can surely review a design, if its only a conceptual design then there is little point in commenting. But from what
I;ve seen the design for ACC, although not probably the final design, is robust enough to warrent comment. I'm not sure if the exterior curtain wall materials are identified in detail. If not I could see holding off until that is defined better since a skyscraper is "all" surface( i.e., a skyscraper with a steel frame and glass curtain wall) and different materials could and would make a great deal of difference.

[Ninjawho]

It would be irresponsible for inga to chime in about this right now. it's just a proposal, it's not architecture until it is built.

When has that ever stopped her before? She comments on proposals all the time....I'm sure we'll hear all about how this will ruin the city in just a little bit.

[SJPhillyBoy]

If you count buildings that are under construction at the moment, there are several that are already taller than the ACC proposal:

Burj Dubai - 2,600 ft? at completion
Shanghai World Financial Center - 1,614 ft

And some that are under construction and will be taller:
Chicago Spire - 2,000 ft
Freedom Tower - 1,776 ft

ACC would not be second tallest at completion, not even in the top five.
So with the current batch of supertalls currently U/C, ACC would be third tallest in the United States and around the 6th tallest in the world. I think that is pretty good company.

[Ninjawho]

it would probably be more like 10th or 11th...

there are a bunch of towers going up in Asia, Russia and the Middle East that are over 1500'..

but it would be the 3rd tallest in America...

[slow-v6]

it would probably be more like 10th or 11th...

there are a bunch of towers going up in Asia, Russia and the Middle East that are over 1500'..

but it would be the 3rd tallest in America...

I could live with that!!