Do too many people live in cities?

[miketoronto]

Do you guys think that too many people live in metropolitan areas(cities) today? Something like 80% of North American's live in cities, and the world % of people living in cities is also rising.

However do you think that means everything is to out of balance, with out enough people living in the countryside, etc?

Your views.

I love cities and would not want to live out in the middle of nowhere. But at the same time, 80% seems like a pretty high number of the pop to have in the cities, with a declining rural population. Having people in the countryside is also important.

[Crawford]

It depends on the city.

Mexico City is too big, and needs to shrink by at least 20% to operate in a halfway sane manner.

Many American Rustbelt cities are too small, and could use additional population, provided the growth were sustainable.

[StethJeff]

people used to rely on the countryside to sustain themselves with fresh water, crops, livestock, etc. but now that we don't live in an agrarian society, where these necessities are now delivered to our cities, what's the use of having people living in rural areas? as long as these vital resources are available within cities, there doesn't seem to be much of a need to having people out in bfe. besides, isn't city living a more efficient use of space?

[the urban politician]

I think we should change the thread title to:

"Do too many people live in auto-dependent suburbs?"

[Muji]

Well it seems to me that as long as there are sufficiently many people and sufficiently much land engaged in agriculture to support urban growth, it shouldn't be a problem. This is also assuming we have enough resources to support our infrastructure and economies.

If one considers the traditional distinction between urban and rural to be nonagricultural (Urban) vs agricultural (Rural) primary use of land, then continued urbanization in less developed nations will be the way we are headed. So, the real challenge I think is how can we make urban life better for the millions of new citizens.

[StethJeff]

I think we should change the thread title to:

"Do too many people live in auto-dependent suburbs?"

in which case the answer is an emphatic 'yes'.

[SpongeG]

cities are only going to continue to grow

rural areas are being gradually abandoned

[urbanactivist]

There's several sides to this coin...

My immediate answer is "no, more people needs to live in a city, and densification needs to occur everywhere in the world." but that's not true. We have reduced the agricultural sector to a very elite few folks, and depend on them much more than anyone would care to realize... it takes a lot of hard work to feed the urban world. In this case, I would hope that the agricultural sector can start a much needed increase in numbers.

The city is definitely the place for me personally, but as a self-sufficient human being, it's pretty awful. In the event of a natural or even local disaster, cities erupt and become chaotic because people don't know how to take care themselves. What would we do without Wi-Fi, cell phones, computers, or dry cleaning, not to mention more pressing necessities like electricity. I'm not trying to forecast biblical doom or anything, but these occasions do happen (9/11). It would be nice if we could be a little more self-sufficient as urban dwellers.

[Boris2k7]

It is definately a complex issue. But to put it simply, the overall population needs to drop. We are having problems already with six billion, and at our present levels of consumption either peak oil or adding further billions will drive us into the ground. Consumption needs to drop too, and this means that sprawl must be halted and reversed.

A certain amount of people need to remain to take on agriculture, as it is impossible to maintain urban areas otherwise. But it is through food surpluses among other things that has allowed our civilization to progress (via differentiation) to the point that it has.

[JManc]

there's too many people, period.

[miketoronto]

Its complexe. The thing is, that can our economy support so many people doing jobs in the urban areas, while we reduce to the countryside to basically a shell of itself?

I would say we probably need more of a balance then we have now.

[SpongeG]

big business has taken over agriculture and will continue to do so

the future is cities and mega cities

the future isn't looking to bright

[MolsonExport]

I cannot help but think, MikeToronto, that the gist of what you are saying here in this thread runs counter to much of your argumentation in other threads (where you bemoan the increasingly decentralized nature of major urban centres like downtown Toronto).

[Trantor]

#1 Monaco: 100
#2 Gibraltar: 100
#3 Bermuda: 100
#4 Singapore: 100
#5 Nauru: 100
#6 Guadeloupe: 100
#7 Belgium: 97
#8 Kuwait: 96
#9 Western Sahara: 96
#10 Martinique: 95
#11 Bahrain: 93
#12 Iceland: 93
#13 Qatar: 93
#14 Luxembourg: 92
#15 Israel: 92
#16 Uruguay: 92
#17 Andorra: 92
#18 Malta: 91
#19 Australia: 91
#20 United Kingdom: 90
#21 Netherlands: 90
#22 San Marino: 90
#23 Lebanon: 90
#24 Bahamas, The: 89
#25 Libya: 88
#26 Germany: 88
#27 Argentina: 88
#28 United Arab Emirates: 87
#29 Venezuela: 87
#30 Saudi Arabia: 87
#31 Chile: 86
#32 New Zealand: 86
#33 Denmark: 85
#34 Djibouti: 84
#35 Sweden: 83
#36 Korea, South: 83
#37 Gabon: 82
#38 Brazil: 82
#39 Jordan: 79
#40 Canada: 79
#41 Japan: 79
#42 New Caledonia: 78
#43 Spain: 78
#44 Oman: 77
#45 United States: 77
#46 Puerto Rico: 76
#47 France: 76
#48 Cuba: 76
#49 Colombia: 75
#50 French Guiana: 75
#51 Norway: 75
#52 Mexico: 75
#53 Trinidad and Tobago: 75
#54 Suriname: 75
#55 Czech Republic: 75
#56 Russia: 73
#57 Peru: 73
#58 Reunion: 72
#59 Dominica: 71
#60 Belarus: 70
#61 Cyprus: 70
#62 Palau: 69
#63 Estonia: 69
#64 Netherlands Antilles: 69
#65 Lithuania: 69
#66 Ukraine: 68
#67 Armenia: 67
#68 Switzerland: 67
#69 Austria: 67
#70 Italy: 67
#71 Iraq: 67
#72 Bulgaria: 67
#73 Portugal: 66
#74 Dominican Republic: 66
#75 Marshall Islands: 66
#76 Turkey: 66
#77 Tunisia: 66
#78 Hungary: 65
#79 Seychelles: 65
#80 Iran: 65
#81 Cape Verde: 64
#82 Ecuador: 63
#83 Poland: 63
#84 Bolivia: 63
#85 El Salvador: 62
#86 Korea, North: 61
#87 Latvia: 60
#88 Greece: 60
#89 Costa Rica: 60
#90 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 59
#91 Ireland: 59
#92 Finland: 59
#93 Mauritania: 59
#94 Cook Islands: 59
#95 Philippines: 59
#96 Algeria: 58
#97 Malaysia: 58
#98 South Africa: 58
#99 Slovakia: 58
#100 Croatia: 58
#101 Panama: 57
#102 Mongolia: 57
#103 Georgia: 57
#104 Jamaica: 57
#105 Paraguay: 57
#106 Nicaragua: 57
#107 Morocco: 56
#108 Kazakhstan: 56
#109 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 56
#110 Romania: 55
#111 Honduras: 54
#112 Northern Mariana Islands: 53
#113 American Samoa: 53
#114 Tuvalu: 53
#115 French Polynesia: 53
#116 Azerbaijan: 52
#117 Serbia and Montenegro: 52
#118 Syria: 52
#119 Barbados: 51
#120 Aruba: 51
#121 Fiji: 50
#122 Cameroon: 50
#123 Equatorial Guinea: 49
#124 Slovenia: 49
#125 Botswana: 49
#126 Sao Tome and Principe: 48
#127 Senegal: 48
#128 Belize: 48
#129 Virgin Islands: 47
#130 Liberia: 46
#131 Nigeria: 45
#132 Turkmenistan: 45
#133 Cote d'Ivoire: 44
#134 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 43
#135 Egypt: 43
#136 Albania: 43
#137 Benin: 43
#138 Mauritius: 42
#139 Indonesia: 42
#140 Central African Republic: 42
#141 Moldova: 41
#142 Guam: 40
#143 Zambia: 40
#144 Guatemala: 40
#145 Kiribati: 39
#146 Saint Lucia: 38
#147 Grenada: 38
#148 Antigua and Barbuda: 37
#149 Sierra Leone: 37
#150 Uzbekistan: 37
#151 Haiti: 37
#152 China: 37
#153 Sudan: 37
#154 Ghana: 36
#155 Zimbabwe: 36
#156 Guyana: 36
#157 Angola: 35
#158 Kyrgyzstan: 34
#159 Kenya: 34
#160 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 34
#161 Comoros: 34
#162 Togo: 34
#163 Tanzania: 33
#164 Mozambique: 33
#165 Pakistan: 33
#166 Tonga: 33
#167 Guinea-Bissau: 32
#168 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 31
#169 Namibia: 31
#170 Mali: 31
#171 Gambia, The: 31
#172 Madagascar: 30
#173 Lesotho: 29
#174 Burma: 28
#175 India: 28
#176 Maldives: 28
#177 Guinea: 28
#178 Tajikistan: 28
#179 Somalia: 28
#180 Swaziland: 27
#181 Bangladesh: 26
#182 Vietnam: 25
#183 Yemen: 25
#184 Chad: 24
#185 Sri Lanka: 23
#186 Liechtenstein: 22
#187 Samoa: 22
#188 Vanuatu: 22
#189 Afghanistan: 22
#190 Niger: 21
#191 Laos: 20
#192 Solomon Islands: 20
#193 Thailand: 20
#194 Eritrea: 19
#195 Cambodia: 18
#196 Papua New Guinea: 18
#197 Burkina Faso: 17
#198 Ethiopia: 16
#199 Malawi: 15
#200 Uganda: 15
#201 Nepal: 12
#202 Burundi: 9
#203 Bhutan: 7
#204 Rwanda: 6

[Abner]

Most Americans live in a fantasy world where food magically appears in the supermarket. They are disconnected from the sources of their food. For this reason, even if it's not the case that too many people live in cities, people are certainly too uniquely attached to them.

[Ayreonaut]

Trantor, that list is the % of people living in cities, right? If it is 79% for Japan surprises me.

[Trantor]

Trantor, that list is the % of people living in cities, right? If it is 79% for Japan surprises me.

I was also surprised by it. But considering that rural area in Japan, at least I think, is largely devoid of BIG farms, latifundies, etc... its mostly small properties and such, the little non urban land available in Japan is probably inhabited by MANY families.

One way or the other, I doubt that there is a universal pattern for what is considered a "urban area".
A rural village in Japan may be considered a rural area. The same village, in some other country, might be considered a small town, urban zone.

[Trantor]

"Definitions vary somewhat amongst different nations. The minimum density requirement is generally 400 persons per square kilometer[citation needed]. European countries define urbanized areas on the basis of urban-type land use, not allowing any gaps of typically more than 200 meters, and use satellite photos instead of census blocks to determine the boundaries of the urban area. In less developed countries, in addition to land use and density requirements, a requirement that a large majority of the population, typically 75%, is not engaged in agriculture and/or fishing is sometimes used."




In Brazil, the definition of Urban Area is any area that has the following:
* I - curbs and walkways, and pluvial waters canalization;

* II - water distribution;

* III - sanitary sewer system;

* IV - public illumination network;

* V - primary school and health outpost at a maximum distance of 3 km from the considerated place

[arbeiter]

Of course, "city" is so subjective - if we were to use the turn of the century definition of a city as they knew it, probably only 20% of Americans live in that, if even.

[Trantor]

according to Wikipedia, in Japan, only districts with at least 4000 people per sq km are considered urban!!

4k people!!!!! Thats why Japan is so "not" urban. Because their own definition of what is urban is incredible density. Most urban population in US or Brazil would probably be considered rural population in Japan!!

[Ayreonaut]

My friend took some pictures when flying over Japan en route to Thailand... densest farmland I've ever seen.

[Trantor]

My friend took some pictures when flying over Japan en route to Thailand... densest farmland I've ever seen.

its like US suburbs... but instead of grass around the houses, they plant food :)

[Ayreonaut]

Ha, pretty much.

[quobobo]

Its complexe. The thing is, that can our economy support so many people doing jobs in the urban areas, while we reduce to the countryside to basically a shell of itself?

I would say we probably need more of a balance then we have now.

Why, pray tell, do we need a balance? In the event that more agricultural workers are needed, their wages will go up and that will draw people out of the cities. Have some faith in the market.

[JackStraw]

Its pretty easy. With new technology and genetic engineering of agricultural products to be more efficient less workers are needed. Most family farms in Iowa, and other midwest states have been closed. Iowa farms took a downfall as bad as the rustbelt did in the 70s-80s.

[JackStraw]

Of course, "city" is so subjective - if we were to use the turn of the century definition of a city as they knew it, probably only 20% of Americans live in that, if even.

right, they probably count metro areas as cities, which count all suburbs.

[zaphod]

didn't this start as far back as the 1920's/1930's? Think grapes of wrath? Seems like every country towns in my area have a retail strip of 20's era brick buildings. Never see anything newer. Many places near me its almost like after the depression time just sorta froze.

Anyways, every region is different in what kind of activity takes place. Not every place is a bucolic land of dairy farms, frankly a lot of places in the plains suck and are not suitable for large popualations because of water. In the South also I wonder if it's the small city that is winning over the large metros in other parts of the country. Northwest Arkansas is booming for
instance.

I would worry first about sprawl encroaching on fertile lands that cities which started as markets developed on.

[MolsonExport]

market forces drive the movement to cities; market forces will drive any movement away from cities, if economic and/or other circumstances change.

[shovel_ready]

The decline of global oil supplies will drive many people to once again take up an agrarian existence. Without all the fossil fuel fertilizers and tractors, food production will become much more labor intensive.

[Chicago3rd]

I think we should change the thread title to:

"Do too many people live in auto-dependent suburbs?"

Exactly....we need to make our cities more urban and our areas outside urban areas more like rual towns.....get rid of the waste lands called the burbs.

[JDRCRASH]

Depending on what Downtown city in the world you are referring to, I would say that there is actually not ENOUGH people living in the urban centers.

[Chriss]

people used to rely on the countryside to sustain themselves with fresh water, crops, livestock, etc. but now that we don't live in an agrarian society, where these necessities are now delivered to our cities, what's the use of having people living in rural areas? as long as these vital resources are available within cities, there doesn't seem to be much of a need to having people out in bfe. besides, isn't city living a more efficient use of space?

Go ask the Colorado river.

[dlbritnot]

I don't think too many people live in cities. I do think that way too many people live in an unstustainable suburban environment. That needs to change, but actual city vs. rural is not out of control. Our current technology allows for most of the population to live in urban areas while the small rural population takes care of agriculture which yields enough abundance to support the whole population.

[niwell]

In short, yes. The number of people living in urban areas worldwide is certaingly troubling from a sustainability perspective, no matter how you look at it. As energy prices increase meeting basic needs of urban dwellers will become increasingly difficult. Modern farming and energy are directly related in a myriad of ways.

However (and this is a big however), we have to deal with the fact that the growing majority of the worlds population will continue to live in urban areas as long as it is remotely tenable. Thus, any solution for our urban ills must be urban oriented. This will involve increased densities yes, but also the return of urban agriculture (yes, it is a return). Hopefully a return to construction of some form of social housing, keeping in mind this doesn't mean tower in the park projects, as many cities have successfully implimented social housing programs. Realistically though we will probably see a relaxation of building controls along with a substantial growth of semi-formal and informal dwellings (again, this would be nothing new historically).

What I hate to hear as a solution is some form of decentralization a la Ebenezer Howard, which is currently in vogue with many 'progressive' academics. The sheer logistics of relocating millions of urban dwellers is mind boggling, not to mention issues of social justice brought about by such displacement.

[Boris2k7]

Well, if around half the world's population dropped dead tomorrow morning, we wouldn't be having so many problems, now would we? ;)