[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

I think that the Chronicle Herald, and certainly the Coast, disproportionately provides the views of the anti-development groups. I am sure that the majority of HRM residents support growth, but if you read the local area news you would think that almost everyone wants to return to the 1800's. For that reason :tup: to Dan Leger (for not being politically correct).

[halifaxboyns]

I agree - I find it funny that people defending these groups are calling people's reaction name calling. I don't get that because I never elected them nor did I ask them to represent my view and I'm sure there are large numbers of people who would agree that they are way over the line.

While I except that the financial argument is still a huge piece of the puzzle, taking that aside - the views are already protected from specific points on the hill. The council of the day did not protect the entire view - that wasn't their intention and how that policy in the MPS ever got there (it needs to be clarified or removed or at least fixed up because it makes no sense).

The proposal doesn't negatively impact a viewplane - it was designed to avoid them so then what is the big deal from that perspective?

People's opinions about style and design will never agree 100%; there will always be someone who disagrees. But I for one feel this group has way too much power and it's only a matter of time before some developer gets impeded by this group and takes them to court. Frankly, if I were a developer and they tried to stop a project of mine and I had deep pockets; I'd take them to court for the thrill because I'm sure it would send those groups into the poor house. I'd probably do it for sheer spite, but then again I've been known to be nasty when people tick me off. :)

As the city grows; I suspect you will see more people moving to the opinion of progress over the past. I doubt it would ever be to the point of progress despite the past (and people would tear down every heritage building they could find - I certainly hope not; because there is value to preserving our past; that's part of maritime tradition). But certainly I think there will be a big push to find reasonable compromises where heritage could be preserved but modern city life created too - through intergration into building design, or even taking unused density from certain heritage parcels (leaving the buildings) and transfering it to other sites? Who knows!

[someone123]

The financial argument is potentially valid but still puts the cart before the horse somewhat given the fact that project details are not yet public. Basically, there's a vague report about what a convention centre might be and a rendering that upsets some people because it looks tall.

[hfxtradesman]

Very true, but Dexter is the one who will ultimately get blamed for either "wasting $100+ million of tax payers money" or "for not seeing the opportunity," depending on what the decision is and who you ask.

the problem will be if this project doesn't go ahead the dexter gov will blame rank for beging too high in price, when in fact dexter wanted more, too make this project cost more to make this project fail:shrug:

[worldlyhaligonian]

If this is built it will be a success. Anything the heritage or view folks are saying isn't based in the real world. Its all about the exposure for them.

The common person in Halifax doesn't have a clue about anything we discuss on here. In fact, they often believe the untruths that have been created.

People speaking out against developments with potential federal funds is like saying no to free money for this region. Its rediculous.

Debt is not the enemy and its times like this, where our city is well positioned, to build.

Build it any they will come.

[fenwick16]

I just hope that if they decide not to proceed that they will have a plan B for a convention centre. Considering all the reports stating that the current WTCC-I is not adequate, it would be a slap in the face to all the local area business people to say that a new convention centre is not required.

[worldlyhaligonian]

It certainly is required... Nobody could argue what we currently have is even up to the standard of hosting a medium sized trade show or conference. I want to see updated renderings.

[halifaxboyns]

I'm hopeful that this is a catalyst for some serious negative backlash against the HT if they kill this. For me; it's one thing to kill it because Rank's project is financially out of whack and come back with a similar project with a good (even great design) for cheaper - fine. If Rank's numbers are way off and that's the reason this project dies; I won't cry because it gives someone else an opportunity to do it better and cheaper.

But if the HT and StV kill this - then I hope the uproar over it; being stopped from a heritage or anti-development perspective creates such a huge uproar and backlash.

I've said before that its only a matter of time before a developer takes these groups to court over their constant appeals and inherant expropriate of land through the appeal process (their constant appeals). This may be the situation that tips the scale and I wouldn't be surprised if Rank were to launch a lawsuit against them.

Do I think it will come to any of this - well; who knows. We've all lived in Halifax at some point (or still do) and all we can do is wait and see and hope. Many of us like or dislike the design and have concerns about the financial implications; but we all agree that the convention centre needs to be improved.

One other thing - if the project dies; I wonder if it might spawn something better on the site and a better convention centre design?

[eastcoastal]

...
But if the HT and StV kill this - then I hope the uproar over it; being stopped from a heritage or anti-development perspective creates such a huge uproar and backlash....


I can't imagine this group (let's face it, they're both really one) will actually affect whether this moves forward at this site or not. I don't think their arguments about the protected views that are already in place need to be expanded. One thing that the HbD process may lend this project (despite it being exempt from some of the rules) is the process used to develop HbD in the first place. During its development, there were many opportunities for the protection of views to be expanded, consultants did not advise it happen, and the public opinion was not in favour of providing more protections.

I also hope that as downtown gets more residents, they will be thy type to speak more vocally for a livable city (and not some half-assed recreation of a romanticized version of history that never really existed).

[beyeas]

The point that Leger and Taylor have made lately (thankfully) is that they are hiding behind the financial argument, when it is really about height.

The know there is a contingent of people who will be against public money going into this, and then they can claim to add those people to their side if they make that their argument.

The question that they then avoid is, would you be ok with this project if it was purely private, and the answer from a group that calls itself Save the View is of course "no".

[fenwick16]

There was a column in the Chronicle Herald on Saturday about the convention centre. All the usual ANTI-everything suspects were out in full force stating their educated :???: opinions. For people in favour (or opposed) you can post comments on the column at http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1192294.html

Without convention centre, who knows what won’t happen

By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist
Sat. Jul 17 - 4:54 AM

I’ve been trying to imagine what downtown Halifax would be like if a new convention centre fails to receive government support.

Without government support, the convention centre won’t be built and anything that is built there instead couldn’t possibly have the same impact on the city.

Aside from attracting business from outside of Nova Scotia, events held at the new convention centre will have the added benefit of drawing people to the downtown that normally wouldn’t come to the area.

If the convention centre isn’t built, there would be little need to build the 500-room, five-star hotel on Argyle Street, which is part of the larger proposal.

Public funds are necessary to support the creation of a new convention centre but Rank Inc., the owner of the property, is planning to build a hotel, office tower and retail development, which will not require any financing from government.

The convention centre is predicted to cost as much as $140 million but the entire project would cost in excess of $400 million to build.

The hotel alone will create a large number of jobs and the guests will provide a new source of customers for the existing downtown entertainment district.

If the convention centre isn’t included, the construction project would be vastly scaled back, to say the least.

Without a convention centre and hotel, an ordinary office tower will probably be built. An office building will attract a significant number of workers to the downtown during the day but it won’t create the kind of buzz the larger project offers.

Unbelievably, there are some people who say they’d prefer to have an empty lot where the Herald Building once stood.

If that suggestion was followed, there is little doubt it would have a devastating effect on the long-term prospects for the downtown business district and, arguably, the provincial capital as a

whole.

Fortunately, leaving it a vacant lot is not an option. It doesn’t matter what the empty-space people want, the owners of the former Herald lands must develop the property if they want to make a return on their investment.

Without a convention centre, it will be a much smaller development, resulting in less property tax going to city coffers. And fewer people in downtown restaurants and bars will mean the provincial government will be forfeiting the potential for far greater tax revenue generated by an exciting new hotel and convention centre complex.

The debate over the convention centre has been going on for some time but now Nova Scotians are closer to getting a decision.

Monday is the deadline for Rank to submit a detailed plan to the provincial government. A decision on a new convention centre should come soon afterwards, according to Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks.

In an earlier news report, Estabrooks indicated cabinet would likely make a decision soon after the plan is presented.

"I would prefer it to be quickly because we’ve had lots of input and lots of debate on the topic and Nova Scotians . . . are looking forward to the decision where we’re going with the convention centre, so let’s get it done," he said.

Opponents are expected to step up the pressure on government to reject the plan. One group, which wants downtown buildings to remain under six storeys, believes it can prevent highrise buildings from being built in this case if it can persuade the government to rebuff the convention proposal.

No matter what the government’s decision, the price of acquiring the land and construction costs require that the buildings be of a certain scale. Besides, the municipality’s development rules allow highrise buildings to be constructed on that site.

Business people like certainty and, while most can understand the huge potential the project offers, few can project what might happen if the convention centre doesn’t get the go ahead.

( rtaylor@herald.ca)

[halifaxboyns]

After reading most of the comments; I see the major stumbling block to the project is the investment of public dollars.

There seems to be an overwhelming opinion that previous measures to make things better by infusing tax payer dollars have either failed or done little to nothing (thus failing).

I can understand why some would have that opinion and I will give them credit for it - how long has the Atlantic Canada Opportunities agency been a joke? I mean really; I have a lot of skepticism for them.

That being said - if that attitude prevails, nothing will ever evolve if all that is needed a little push. I would feel different if it was a completely government project; designed and built that way. But with a private developer asking for money - why she he be given money, when no projects like the Trillium are done with private funds?

I've asked the question before and I will post it again on the Herald website - taking the money argument out of the question - would people support it? I suspect the answer will still be no. So sad.

[halifaxboyns]

Not sure if anyone posted this from the weekend:
Clearing up convention centre conspiracy
The former Halifax Herald property was sold in 2002
By BEV DAUPHINEE
Sat. Jul 17 - 4:54 AM

If we build it, will they come? And even if they do come, will it be worth the cost of building it?

These are a couple of the questions swirling around the new convention centre proposed for the former Chronicle Herald property in downtown Halifax.

The complex would take up two blocks of the downtown core and would include hotel, office and retail space in addition to the convention centre.

Estimates indicate the entire project’s price tag will be close to $400 million, with the convention centre portion making up $120 million to $140 million of that. Funding for the convention centre would be shared by the federal and provincial governments and Halifax Regional Municipality — which means we, the taxpayers, will be footing that part of the bill.

Proponents of this new centre say it would be a catalyst to revitalizing the downtown and would attract bigger and better conventions than our current World Trade and Convention Centre can handle, bringing in lots of money to boost the local economy.

Opponents say huge convention centres such as the one proposed are money-losers in other cities, it would be a drain on the local economy and taxpayers, and would ruin the view of Halifax Harbour from Citadel Hill.

Since the beginning of this steamy month, the convention centre debate has been heating up, as the July 19 deadline approaches for Rank Inc. to submit detailed plans, so the province can decide if it wants to negotiate a contract with the developer.

It is not my intention today to enter the argument on the pros and cons of the proposal, although for the record, I’ll reiterate my position: I’m in favour of the development. Anything that might spur new life, interest and growth in downtown Halifax is worth an investment, in my opinion.

My reason for writing this column is to clear up some misconceptions that are apparently floating around out there about The Chronicle Herald, its owners and staff, and our role in the convention centre project — in a nutshell, we have none.

I received an email this week that contained a number of outlandish allegations of collusion and censorship at The Herald. Normally, I would ignore this kind of thing; years of experience have taught me that facts seldom win a battle against unfounded rumours and false accusations.

However, this email wasn’t just sent to me; it went out to about 40 people, including a number of public officials, and I couldn’t let the charges against The Herald and its staff go unchallenged.

So, here are the facts:

•The former downtown Halifax Herald property — the building and parking lots — was sold in 2002. For the last several years that we operated in that location, we leased the space from the new owners. The Chronicle Herald has no financial interest in the proposed development of the site and has nothing to gain, or lose, whether the convention centre goes ahead or not.

•There is no "collusion" between the newspaper and governments on this or any other issue. I suspect all politicians and government officials, like most other people who read our news coverage of the goings-on at all levels of government, would laugh at that suggestion.

•There is no censorship to "suppress" points of view that "they don’t support." I’m not sure who "they" refers to — some mysterious higher power at The Herald, newsroom managers, reporters, editors? Believe me, we do not all have the same opinions on issues, so I don’t know how we’d figure out which views to suppress.

Our news stories attempt to fairly, and without bias, present all sides of an issue. Writers of columns, op-eds and letters to the editor get to express their personal views, whatever they are — subject to libel laws and space restrictions, but not to the whim of an editor who disagrees with the opinion expressed.

The outline below clearly shows both sides in the convention centre debate have had their say.

In the first week of July, we ran two news stories: "Report on new convention centre costing taxpayers thousands" (July 3) and "PR battle unfair, cry centre opponents" (July 4). And between July 1 and July 8, we ran five letters to the editor on the topic, four opposing the proposal and one suggesting that a land swap — building the convention centre on the old Infirmary site and the new library on the former Herald site — might solve the viewplane issue and make everyone happy.

We published two more letters from convention centre opponents on Monday, July 12 — the same day Dan Leger’s column appeared, taking the opposite view.

Dan’s column stirred up a hornet’s nest. In the next two days, I received 10 letters and two opinion articles on the convention centre; the letter writers were pretty evenly divided on the topic, but both op-ed authors took issue with Dan’s views. On Wednesday, I ran six of the letters, three pro and three con, and one article.

Emails continue to come in on the topic, still fairly evenly divided, but it’s becoming obvious that both sides of the issue have mounted letter-writer campaigns. Meanwhile, there are other topics in the news that people are writing letters about, and it’s time to give them a little space.

( bdauphinee@herald.ca)

From the Chronicle Herald Saturday online edition.

[someone123]

There seems to be an overwhelming opinion that previous measures to make things better by infusing tax payer dollars have either failed or done little to nothing (thus failing).

I can understand why some would have that opinion and I will give them credit for it - how long has the Atlantic Canada Opportunities agency been a joke? I mean really; I have a lot of skepticism for them.

Sadly, there is a perception that the downtown has been on life support, soaking up public money without any positive effects, when in reality the downtown is a cash cow and sees very little public investment. There's been lots of talk but very little follow-through, even on small projects.

Lots of people are also confused about ACOA. They don't do much in the city. Public funds go disproportionately to rural areas.

[hfxtradesman]

A little more info I got today. The price went out on time and at a price of 120k, we could get an answer by the end of the month, from the gov. side of things. Everything was in the price the gov had asked for and there is no arts centre. There should be a new updated more detailed picture coming out sonner than later on the look of the trade centre.

[fenwick16]

A little more info I got today. The price went out on time and at a price of 120k, we could get an answer by the end of the month, from the gov. side of things. Everything was in the price the gov had asked for and there is no arts centre. There should be a new updated more detailed picture coming out sonner than later on the look of the trade centre.

Thanks for the info. That sounds like a reasonable price ($120 million), especially if it includes all of the furnishings. I am looking forward to seeing the new renderings. I hope that soon there will be an end to the grossly inflated costs that we keep hearing (everywhere from $170 million to $300 million, primarily coming from the Save the View group).

$120 million would break down to $40 million from the three levels of government (the federal government has a long track record of funding convention centres).

[worldlyhaligonian]

Let's see this built.

[sdm]

Thanks for the info. That sounds like a reasonable price ($120 million), especially if it includes all of the furnishings. I am looking forward to seeing the new renderings. I hope that soon there will be an end to the grossly inflated costs that we keep hearing (everywhere from $170 million to $300 million, primarily coming from the Save the View group).

$120 million would break down to $40 million from the three levels of government (the federal government has a long track record of funding convention centres).

the 120 is construction cost, and does not include the furnishings.

It would be interesting to see the details around the lease terms and if there is cost overuns who swallows them.

Finally there was an interview with the minister today and it was mentioned the decision would be in the fall?

[fenwick16]

This article was in the Chronicle Herald today - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1192828.html . I like this quotation: Trade Centre Ltd., a provincial Crown corporation that operates the World Trade and Convention Centre on Argyle Street, has spent more than $50,000 in public money on studies and open houses in support of a new, downtown convention centre.

Those expenditures have upset opponents of the plan who say it gave convention centre boosters an unfair public relations advantage.

If this is true then these opponents should be treated as children and not be taken seriously at all. Should the three levels of government proceed without all due diligence?


Rank delivers centre plans
Developer says he has other options if province nixes convention complex
By BRUCE ERSKINE Business Reporter
Tue. Jul 20 - 4:52 AM

The detailed plan for a potential new downtown Halifax convention centre is in the province’s hands.

"The ball is in their court," said Joe Ramia of Rank Inc., in an interview on Monday. Ramia submitted his development company’s plans for a major complex to occupy the former Halifax Herald lands on Argyle Street to the provincial government by the 2 p.m. Monday deadline.

"It’s a big package," he said. "It’s everything they asked for."

Ramia wouldn’t disclose details of the plan or put a price tag on it.

But the entire project, including the convention centre, a hotel and office and retail space, has been estimated at $400 million.

Costs for the convention centre component, which would require public funding, have been pegged at between $120 million and $140 million.

Convention centre proponents say it would give downtown Halifax a much needed economic boost.

Opponents say it is a waste of tax dollars in a shrinking North American convention market that would also block the view of Halifax Harbour from Citadel Hill.

Trade Centre Ltd., a provincial Crown corporation that operates the World Trade and Convention Centre on Argyle Street, has spent more than $50,000 in public money on studies and open houses in support of a new, downtown convention centre.

Those expenditures have upset opponents of the plan who say it gave convention centre boosters an unfair public relations advantage.

Ramia said the convention centre was the government’s idea.

"We didn’t propose the convention centre," he said, noting that Rank simply answered a government request for proposals.

"They asked. We responded."

Rank has alternative plans for the large downtown property if the convention centre plan doesn’t go forward, Ramia said.

"We have B and C plans without a convention centre," he said.

Ramia had no idea how long the government will consider his company’s submission before making a decision.

"We’ll wait and listen to what they say," he said.

Government spokeswoman Cathy MacIsaac said it will take some time to go through the detailed plan, which Ramia said was delivered in boxes.

"There are lots of details," she said, suggesting it would take a few weeks to fully assess and evaluate the proposal.

The plan will also be examined by Halifax regional council.

( berskine@herald.ca)

[JustinMacD]

I just have a quick question. I was on Facebook and saw the "Save the View" group on there... and I was just wondering if these people have day jobs? Do they 100% dedicate their lives to this goal of slowing down Halifax's progress? I was just sort of curious. Like Pacey, what does he do? This Liz MacDougall person, what does she do?

[fenwick16]

I just have a quick question. I was on Facebook and saw the "Save the View" group on there... and I was just wondering if these people have day jobs? Do they 100% dedicate their lives to this goal of slowing down Halifax's progress? I was just sort of curious. Like Pacey, what does he do? This Liz MacDougall person, what does she do?

There is a Dr. Phil Pacey who is a university professor at Dalhousie University (Department of Chemistry) but I don't know if this is the same Phil Pacey? I had Dr. Pacey as a Chemistry professor at Dalhousie University back in 1976 but I don't know if it is the same person?

[JustinMacD]

There is a Dr. Phil Pacey who is a university professor at Dalhousie University (Department of Chemistry) but I don't know if this is the same Phil Pacey? I had Dr. Pacey as a Chemistry professor at Dalhousie University back in 1976 but I don't know if it is the same person?

Yeah I Googled him before and saw that same name at DAL. Wouldn't surprise me. Doesn't he live around Schmidtville? It would make sense.

[sdm]

There is a Dr. Phil Pacey who is a university professor at Dalhousie University (Department of Chemistry) but I don't know if this is the same Phil Pacey? I had Dr. Pacey as a Chemistry professor at Dalhousie University back in 1976 but I don't know if it is the same person?

You will find a lot of them are professors, and yes that is probably the same prof you had back in 1976.

[halifaxboyns]

Yeah I Googled him before and saw that same name at DAL. Wouldn't surprise me. Doesn't he live around Schmidtville? It would make sense.

It would explain the negative play that the Trillium got. I was doing some research on Schmidtville and I found an old map (can't remember where) that showed that the block the Trillium was in wasn't part of Schmidtville.

Either way; the context changed as soon as Park Victoria was built.

[halifaxboyns]

This just broke on CBC news for PEI:
$17.5M convention centre for Charlottetown
Last Updated: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 | 1:31 PM AT Comments0Recommend0CBC News
A long-anticipated convention centre for Charlottetown was announced Tuesday.

The 36,000 square-foot complex will be built to hold receptions for up to 3,000 people and dining events for up to 1,500 people.

Gail Shea, the federal minister responsible for P.E.I., and Premier Robert Ghiz were on hand for the announcement. It is estimated that the convention centre will cost approximately $17.5 million to complete. That will be cost-shared by the federal and provincial governments.

The centre will be built on the waterfront near the Delta Prince Edward hotel, on a site now occupied by the Canadian Coast Guard. The coast guard will move to another location in the Charlottetown area.

In a news release, government officials say the centre will double P.E.I.'s capacity for hosting meetings and described it as the next step in the Island's investment in tourism infrastructure.

"The anticipated investment in the PEI Convention Centre will increase meetings and convention business by close to 30 per cent over five years," said Ghiz.

"Once it is fully operational, the new Centre will add a further $6.5 million in annual tourism business to the provincial economy."

The facility will be physically connected to the Delta Prince Edward, and will be managed by the hotel, subject to an operating agreement that is being finalized.

Final funding arrangements are still being negotiated. If the development progresses as anticipated, the new facility will be hosting conventions in the fall of 2012.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2010/07/20/pei-charlottetown-convention-centre-584.html#ixzz0uF0c8Noi

[sdm]

This just broke on CBC news for PEI:
$17.5M convention centre for Charlottetown
Last Updated: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 | 1:31 PM AT Comments0Recommend0CBC News
A long-anticipated convention centre for Charlottetown was announced Tuesday.

The 36,000 square-foot complex will be built to hold receptions for up to 3,000 people and dining events for up to 1,500 people.

Gail Shea, the federal minister responsible for P.E.I., and Premier Robert Ghiz were on hand for the announcement. It is estimated that the convention centre will cost approximately $17.5 million to complete. That will be cost-shared by the federal and provincial governments.

The centre will be built on the waterfront near the Delta Prince Edward hotel, on a site now occupied by the Canadian Coast Guard. The coast guard will move to another location in the Charlottetown area.

In a news release, government officials say the centre will double P.E.I.'s capacity for hosting meetings and described it as the next step in the Island's investment in tourism infrastructure.

"The anticipated investment in the PEI Convention Centre will increase meetings and convention business by close to 30 per cent over five years," said Ghiz.

"Once it is fully operational, the new Centre will add a further $6.5 million in annual tourism business to the provincial economy."

The facility will be physically connected to the Delta Prince Edward, and will be managed by the hotel, subject to an operating agreement that is being finalized.

Final funding arrangements are still being negotiated. If the development progresses as anticipated, the new facility will be hosting conventions in the fall of 2012.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2010/07/20/pei-charlottetown-convention-centre-584.html#ixzz0uF0c8Noi

Wow this and Fredicton's.

I know the reports released by the Trade Centre limited it showed that a significant part of their business is regional, therefore with two additional centres being built the competition just got a lot tougher.

[JustinMacD]

All this does is give more ammunition to the Save the View crowd. They'll just ramble on about how Halifax will have to compete with PEI and Fredricton so it isn't even worth it to build a new one.

UGH JUST GET IT APPROVED.

[Haliguy]

I believe the proposed Halifax Convention centre will cater to a national and international market more so than a regional.

[halifaxboyns]

All this does is give more ammunition to the Save the View crowd. They'll just ramble on about how Halifax will have to compete with PEI and Fredricton so it isn't even worth it to build a new one.

UGH JUST GET IT APPROVED.

No I don't think it will give them more ammunition - it will all depend on how you spin it.

Think about it: part of getting conventions to come to a place is the ease of access. Charlottetown and Fredericton have reasonable road access, but air access is the pits. Air Canada Jazz flies from Toronto to both and from Halifax and Westjet seasonally flies to Charlottetown and that's it. There are charters; but I doubt people will use them. So how will they get there? They will fly from wherever into Halifax first and then get there.

So my spin on this would be - great; they can complete for the regional conferences. We will work to grab more national and international conferences because we have the direct flights to the US (United/Continential, US Airways, Delta/Northwest and American) as well as direct flights (on mass) into central and western Canada and to the Europe (Air Canada to London, Air Transit to London, Icelandair to Reykjavik, Condor to Frankfurt and Corsair to Paris).

Plus with Via rail service via Montreal - which can connect through Toronto to New York and Boston; the spin will be in the access.

[fenwick16]

I keep checking the Rank Inc. website, http://www.novacentre.ca/ , but they haven't updated the renderings. Since the plans have been submitted to the provincial government, I wonder why Rank Inc. doesn't post them to their website?

[worldlyhaligonian]

I'd say because it circumvents the criticism from obstructionists and their false economic interpretation has less umpff with their real target market, the anti height folks that don't want Halifax to be a city.

What they can't see can definitely hurt them in this case... which is a good thing and I bet have been positive changes. I hope to the base of the tower... I don't mind the tower design depending on the material used for the horizontal sripes on the facad.

[halifaxboyns]

I'd say because it circumvents the criticism from obstructionists and their false economic interpretation has less umpff with their real target market, the anti height folks that don't want Halifax to be a city.

What they can't see can definitely hurt them in this case... which is a good thing and I bet have been positive changes. I hope to the base of the tower... I don't mind the tower design depending on the material used for the horizontal sripes on the facad.

I would have to agree witht his. The less information they have - they less ammunition they have.

nothing like leaving them in the dark.
:)

[Jonovision]

Study: Centre would create tax bonanza

But opponents say convention business declining, facility would be waste of money


By BRUCE ERSKINE

Business Reporter

A new Halifax convention cen tre would generate more than $170 million in tax revenues over 10 years, says an economic impact study released Wednes day.

“What this study says is the industry is important to Nova Scotia, it’s one we can excel at and one that will generate sig nificant tax dollars and jobs," Scott Ferguson, president and chief executive officer of Trade Centre Ltd., said Wednesday in an interview.

Trade Centre is the provincial Crown corporation that operates the World Trade and Convention Centre in downtown Halifax, near the site of the proposed convention facility.

It commissioned the $10,000 study, done by Halifax consult ants
Gardner Pinfold .

The study concluded that the proposed convention facility, which would cost an estimated $120 million to $140 million, would also create about 27,000 person-years of employment.

That would be a gain of about 12,000 person-years of em ployment and $79 million in taxes, compared with the exist ing trade and convention centre. Opponents of the plan say the study is based on inflated visitor estimates Trade Centre has provided.

“It’s ridiculous in the ex treme," Allan Robertson, a member of the Coalition to Save the View, said Wednesday in an interview.

The coalition opposes the convention centre as a waste of public money that will block historic views of Halifax Har bour from the Citadel.

Robertson, a retired manage ment consultant with experi ence in the tourism sector, said the study’s revenue and em ployment conclusions are based on visitor numbers that are more than twice what the exist ing convention centre draws.

“If you make silly assump tions, you get silly results. The convention business is flat or declining."

Ferguson said the convention business is “rotational" and he defended the numbers provided for the study.

“I think they’re responsible numbers. We know a great deal about the industry."

Trade Centre has spent more than $50,000 on eight reports examining various aspects of the proposed convention centre. Critics say those expenditures have given proponents of the plan an unfair advantage over its opponents.

But Ferguson said it would be irresponsible not to examine a major public investment.

“You need to do your home work and we’ve done that. You can’t fault us for that."

If approved, the convention centre would be part of a $400-million commercial devel opment by Rank Inc. , which submitted its detailed plan to the province earlier this week.

Meanwhile, Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks said Wednesday that he and depart mental staff were pouring over thousands of pages in four box es of documents submitted this week by Rank Inc.

The proposed convention centre rests on the “cold, hard facts" of the business case, Estabrooks said, adding that he was pleased by the level of de tail he has seen. Estabrooks plans to make a recommenda tion to cabinet by late summer or early fall on whether the province should help fund the project. He wouldn’t tip his hand on which way he’s lean ing, but said he is still listening to arguments, including from within the NDP government.

“But it’s not just the caucus and cabinet," he said. “We have to make sure that we are reflect ing the views of Nova Scotians." Jerry MacKinlay, riding asso ciation president for Halifax Atlantic, helped sponsor a reso lution at the NDP’s annual gen eral meeting in June opposing the new convention centre.

The resolution called for any provincial investment to be put toward “sustainable renova tions" to help expand Halifax’s current convention centre.

It never came to a vote, but MacKinlay said he believes there are better ways to spend government money at a time when the province is in debt.

With The Canadian Press (berskine@herald.ca)

[Jonovision]

Fusion also had a large piece in the paper today. An add created in support of the centre from the board of directors. Unfortunately I am unable to copy it from the website.

[fenwick16]

I agree with the article completely. Halifax will undoubtedly increase its convention business with the new convention centre. My only complaint is that I wish that it was larger - however, I think that there are provisions in the design for future expansion (perhaps part of the office space can be converted to convention space in the future). Also, I wish that it were 30 storeys tall instead of only 18. :tup:

After the convention centre, Halifax needs an outdoor stadium. (it has been put on the back-burner long enough!)

[halifaxboyns]

My questions to the Save the View guy would be this:

1) You say you have experience in the tourism sector - explain your experience? What is it? (Because being the manager of a bed and breakfast for example doesn't qualify you to respond)
2) From what basis are your numbers coming from?
3) Of course the business is in decline when the economy goes down; but are there any (note how I qualify that) projections or discussions about the amount of business going up once the economy grows?

As for your comment Fenwick, I agree.
One thing that Calgary did was create a list of the top priority infrastructure projects, with cost estimates and a rated priority system and then began setting money aside for them either through federal or provincial grant programs for things like green infrastructure or just from the general revenues. Now of course the priorities changed with the whim of council, but that's how the west LRT line is getting built, the LRT extensions were done as well as BRTs.

I'd suggest that list be created during the regional planning phase - so that you can get a sense of what projects need to get done immediately in order to correct problems and then what are nice to haves.

From my perspective; I'd classify things like this (for now):

High Speed Ferry link from Bedford;
Expansion of BRT service;
Convention Centre;
Demolition of Cogswell interchange
Airport Bus service (in some form);
High Speed Ferry to Purcell's Cove;
High Speed ferry to dock near Windmill Road or to Shannon Park;
Stadium;
Rapid transit line (in some form; either LRT or RAV system like Vancouver);
Commuter rail (to extend beyond RAV service)


Not to say that a stadium isn't important; but if the CFL or any team is going to come to Halifax to play out of the stadium - you need more people. If you build up your transportation network; you create the opportunity for higher density; thus more people. You also improve the general functioning of the transportation network; making city life better.

[hoser111]

Notwithstanding that "if indeed" convention business is down, it is perhaps because our current facility is no longer adequate enough to attract that business!

[MonctonRad]

The convention trade may be flat or in slight decline.........I don't dispute that.

The NIMBY's however choose to ignore the fact that there is probably a lot of untapped demand amongst various organizations to host major conventions in Atlantic Canada. If you want to take adxantage of this then you have to build the facilities to draw the business here.........otherwise the convention business will continue to avoid Atlantic Canada and stay on the same old Toronto/Montreal/Calgary/Vancouver circuit.

Fredericton understands this. Charlottetown also understands this. That is why both of those cities are building major new convention facilities. These new facilities in NB and PEI will be on the same scale (or slightly better) than the existing WTCC in Halifax. You will then have three Maritime cities chasing the mid-sized convention trade.

If Halifax wants to stay ahead of the game, they absolutely must build a new large convention centre capable of competing with the first tier Canadian cities for major convention business. This is a market that has not yet been tapped in Atlantic Canada.

If you build it, they will come!!

I hate self serving NIMBY's. They can do irrepairable harm to a community's economy. Why does Halifax have so many of them?

[fenwick16]

Not to say that a stadium isn't important; but if the CFL or any team is going to come to Halifax to play out of the stadium - you need more people. If you build up your transportation network; you create the opportunity for higher density; thus more people. You also improve the general functioning of the transportation network; making city life better.

I disagree completely. Halifax was awarded a franchise in 1983 but couldn't get a stadium built. Saskatchewan has supported a franchise since 1910 (see below). A Halifax based team could draw from all three Maritime Provinces (1.8 million people) which has 50% more people than Saskatchewan. Various CFL commissioners have stated that they want a team in Halifax.

If Halifax doesn't build a stadium then the team will end up in Moncton, where the CFL will be a huge success. If Halifax doesn't get a stadium and CFL team it will simply be because local area politicians are not in tune with what the public desires.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan_Roughriders
The Saskatchewan Roughriders are a Canadian Football League team based in Regina, Saskatchewan, founded in 1910. They play their home games at Mosaic Stadium at Taylor Field, the location that they have played at through their entire history, but is significantly different from the original facility. Originally known as the Regina Rugby Club from 1910 to 1923, they changed their name to the Regina Roughriders in 1924 and finally to the Saskatchewan Roughriders in 1948. The team draws fans from across Saskatchewan and Canada who are affectionately known as the "Rider Nation". The team is the current West Division Champions and have won three Grey Cups over their 100 year history. The fans are known for their loyalty and "Rider Pride", and it is not odd to find a group of Rider fans following the team on their road games across the country. The team also sells more merchandise and draws the highest TV ratings of any team[citation needed] in the CFL, despite playing in the smallest market by far in the league. The Roughriders play in the CFL's West Division. The team has had 17 players inducted into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame . Their rivalry with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers is arguably the most passionate and intense in the league, as games between the two are often sold out before the beginning of the season.

[halifaxboyns]

I disagree completely. Halifax was awarded a franchise in 1983 but couldn't get a stadium built. Saskatchewan has supported a franchise since 1910 (see below). A Halifax based team could draw from all three Maritime Provinces (1.8 million people) which has 50% more people than Saskatchewan. Various CFL commissioners have stated that they want a team in Halifax.

You are correct about Saskatchewan - their fans are hugely devoted; but aside from people here; I've yet to see a lot of people express interest in it. I'm not saying its not there; I'm sure it would be - I guess my concern would be that if you build it and they don't come; then what?

That being said - I don't think it should be sunk just out of fear that people might not come and support it.

My list was to express the importance of the regional plan and other issues to devote to population. We've talked about previous temporary stadiums; which could function until a permanent home was built - which I think is a reasonable solution until you got to it in the list I suggested. I guess I didn't make that clear, but certainly with a greater population will bring more potential fans.

Also; as I said earlier I don't know what the fan base and demand would be - so I'd need to understand where the fan base is and how big it would be before I'd feel comfy with building a permanent stadium. A temporary one; sure. But something fixed; I'd need to see the support (and I'd say that Council would probably need to see it as well) before committing the funds.

Then again; much like the convention centre debate - sometimes risk is worth it. As you can see, I don't really understand sports (don't watch them really) so this is something where my understanding is clearly lacking.

A stadium could be included in Shannon Park - thus being serviced with high speed ferry; so you could actually lump the two together from an infrastructure perspective.

[someone123]

The "industry in decline" argument is awfully vague and it's really obvious that it might not hold locally, particularly when you have a city with facilities not up to par.

[fenwick16]

A stadium could be included in Shannon Park - thus being serviced with high speed ferry; so you could actually lump the two together from an infrastructure perspective.

As you say, you are not a sports fan - that is not to be condemned; but a stadium is like a convention centre, putting it in the wrong location will result in failure of the facility and any team that locates there. Good public transit to such a facility will be critical to its success - therefore it can't just be lumped together with a high speed ferry, it needs to be carefully thought out.

Regarding the list - there are infrastructure projects (roads, ferries, bridges) and quality of life projects - example arenas, stadiums, libraries, performing arts centres ... Lumping them together in the same list is a mistake in my opinion. Quality of life facilities attract people to the city and help to retain them. Infrastructure facilities are a necessity for the city to function. In my opinion both are required.

[fenwick16]

The "industry in decline" argument is awfully vague and it's really obvious that it might not hold locally, particularly when you have a city with facilities not up to par.

I don't buy this argument either. We are in the middle of a global slowdown. I am sure that is the reason for the global decline in convention goers, not because of widespread teleconferencing, as opponents want to argue. Are people really going to choose sitting at a computer over traveling to distant cities and meeting in person with others. If that is the case, then I am worried about the society that will result (as I sit on my computer typing this) .

[halifaxboyns]

As you say, you are not a sports fan - that is not to be condemned; but a stadium is like a convention centre, putting it in the wrong location will result in failure of the facility and any team that locates there. Good public transit to such a facility will be critical to its success - therefore it can't just be lumped together with a high speed ferry, it needs to be carefully thought out.

Regarding the list - there are infrastructure projects (roads, ferries, bridges) and quality of life projects - example arenas, stadiums, libraries, performing arts centres ... Lumping them together in the same list is a mistake in my opinion. Quality of life facilities attract people to the city and help to retain them. Infrastructure facilities are a necessity for the city to function. In my opinion both are required.

While I agree with you; most cities lump the projects together - because from their perspectives it's spending money to build something. I don't disagree with you that they should be looked at differently, but typically governments look at priority projects first (usually infrastructure for transportation, education and health) and quality of life projects end up near the bottom. I don't always agree with it; but when it comes to building a hospital over a stadium I will always be on the side of a hospital.

That being said - I think the stadium could work out in Shannon Park; assuming that the redevelopment scheme for the neighbourhood includes good public transportation links for when the stadium would come online - not for after. So if the stadium opened today; I would want the road network, bus network and any other transportation links that would serve the site in place and operating at the same time (so a ferry terminal with park and ride built and operating and new bus service established). This would go for any location really. One other option that I had thought about but not considered feasable was to build it somewhere on the waterfront on fill land - much like what BEdford was going to do with waterfront master plan. You could either do that in Downtown Dartmouth (assuming the height of the stadium could clear the CN tracks and didn't protrude through a viewplane) and extend into the harbour (already existing transit infrastructure there). Or do it on the Halifax - like my diagrams in the stadium discussion show. We are drifting off the topic here - I'll post something in the correct thread. :)

[fenwick16]

I agree with you here, but Halifax has plans to build a new central library. There has been talk about a new Metro Centre. I would have a separate list of quality of life projects such as:

1) A new Central Library (simply because it is so far along, I would have picked an outdoor stadium first)
2) the first stage of an outdoor stadium with 15,000 seats. But have plans for 40,000 (in the future when needed)
3) A Performing Arts Theater seating 1,500 - 2,000
4) A much larger Maritime Museum of the Atlantic
5) A new Metro Centre seating 15,000

Who knows how many decades it will be before all of these are built but I think eventually they will be.

[someone123]

Well, the library is already funded and in progress.

My guess is that if the stadium is built it will start at a reasonable size. 15,000 seats isn't really any "closer" than nothing since it is not terribly useful for anything major, such as the CFL or major concerts. Because of the way federal funding works it would also be much easier to get money for something that looks significant - it could be sold as a stadium for the whole region, which is what it would be.

The Nova Centre proposal is similar. It's big enough to bring in some federal funding that would otherwise not come to Halifax. That is one of the big things the city loses out on because there are so few major projects. The province will only be paying for a small fraction of the development.

[fenwick16]

Because a 15,000 seat stadium would have room on the field for about 20,000 - 25,000 people (5 - 6 square feet per person), a 15,000 seat stadium could potentially hold 40,000 for concerts with some permanent washrooms for performers and concert goers.

The Pan-Am stadium proposal for Hamilton is for 15,000 seats, with future expansion being funded by the city and the Hamilton Tiger-cats.

In Halifax, starting with 15,000 seats removes some of the risk of having a large stadium and no CFL team (Moncton has a 20,000 seat stadium and no current CFL team).

[sdm]

3) A Performing Arts Theater seating 1,500 - 2,000
4) A much larger Maritime Museum of the Atlantic


Who knows how many decades it will be before all of these are built but I think eventually they will be.

Both those elements were part of the Queenslanding proposal, which i might add was proposed in 2005, just to illustrate how things progress around here when there is elements of government involved.

[fenwick16]

Both those elements were part of the Queenslanding proposal, which i might add was proposed in 2005, just to illustrate how things progress around here when there is elements of government involved.

I hope that the Queens Landing project proceeds. To be honest, I am not sure if the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic is already at that location and they are considering expanding it or if they are considering a completely new building? I didn't know that it included a 1,500 - 2,000 seat performing arts centre (this would be a large theatre similar to the Princess of Wales Theatre and others in the Toronto area).

[worldlyhaligonian]

I don't buy this argument either. We are in the middle of a global slowdown. I am sure that is the reason for the global decline in convention goers, not because of widespread teleconferencing, as opponents want to argue. Are people really going to chose sitting at a computer over traveling to distant cities and meeting in person with others. If that is the case, then I am worried about the society that will result (as I sit on my computer typing this) .

Its not even that bad... trade shows are a great way for SMEs to do low cost per transaction deals and the industry isn't down everywhere.

Actually, the obstructionists would be right if they were talking about a place like Detroit. Halifax is a completely different story in terms of at least attracting people on the level of destination status. Also, we are a military/government city and that draws not only industrial clusters for procurement but also these type of shows.

I don't see how it is a waste of money or could even be a boondoogle with the amount of federal funds. Do the obstuctionist not realize that we are getting a good chunk of the funding from basically everybody in the country?

This is a good deal for Halifax, even if we don't see dramatic growth in the convention industry. By the nature of the business cycle this sort of thing will recover. I know people make the newspaper analogy, but trade shows and conventions have become really great tools for startups in the modern era and technology has had a big impact on the success of these shows.

Furthermore, the things that people have been saying about no local investment resulting from these types of shows is totally false. Even if one sales deal is made with someone in halifax, that constitutes some sort of local value creation. Especially with the universities, local impact can definitely result in cities that host AGMs, Trade Shows, Industry Conventions, you name it.

[Precambrian]

I feel that more people are becoming aware of the damages caused by HT, Save the View, and other anti-development nazis are causing to the city, and the more people realize this, the better. Kings Wharf is a go, and you see people hanging out watching the construction and feeling excited according to one forumer. The Trillium, under construction, is bringing people out into the park across from the site and they have a positive view on the project. These nimbys, to me, plainly put, are enemies of Halifax. They have no desire to see progress, and a future for the city and it's youth. To me they are selfish. I feel now if STV stops this convention centre, the uproar over this will send them into the ground. People want change, and if this is denied then more people will realize that Save the View and Heritage trust are anything but their cause. If I lived in Hali, I'd be doing as much research so when it comes time to meetings and hearings, I'd ask questions that would make these people sound like a fool.
Time to give these people an eviction notice.:hell:

[halifaxboyns]

I feel that more people are becoming aware of the damages caused by HT, Save the View, and other anti-development nazis are causing to the city, and the more people realize this, the better. Kings Wharf is a go, and you see people hanging out watching the construction and feeling excited according to one forumer. The Trillium, under construction, is bringing people out into the park across from the site and they have a positive view on the project. These nimbys, to me, plainly put, are enemies of Halifax. They have no desire to see progress, and a future for the city and it's youth. To me they are selfish. I feel now if STV stops this convention centre, the uproar over this will send them into the ground. People want change, and if this is denied then more people will realize that Save the View and Heritage trust are anything but their cause. If I lived in Hali, I'd be doing as much research so when it comes time to meetings and hearings, I'd ask questions that would make these people sound like a fool.
Time to give these people an eviction notice.:hell:

I could not have put it better myself.
One of the things which I've always believed (and said) whenever these groups get up to the microphone is that they never really explain their position. They say that something is bad - but why? I've screamed at my tv and my computer monitor for someone on council to simply ask the white elephant question - why?

The better question for the convention centre is this: You (Mr. Pacey and et al) were around when the viewplanes legislation was passed correct? If so; why didn't you say something then or champion harder then to save the entire view? Why do you believe that the entire view should be saved? What happens if this convention centre is built? And how do you respond to the hundreds, maybe thousands (yes I know - that's a stretch) of people who could be employed for this project - who may not otherwise find work? What do you say to them?

These serious questions need to be asked of them. I'd love to get Peggy Cameron and Barb Miller at the podium and ask them 'what do you say to the youth of Nova Scotia - who dream, no, cling to the hope of graduating and finding work here; but have their hopes dashed because you continually oppose every development that moves this city forward? How do you respond to them?

Oh to be a regional councillor for that meeting.

[halifaxboyns]

I found this in the Herald's letters and feed back section:
Lack of vision plagues Halifax
Recognize city as cultural, economic driver of province
By GORD WHITTAKER
Sat, Jul 24 - 4:53 AM
The endless debate around the proposed Halifax convention centre ("the centre") and the apparent lack of public consensus is a result of what plagues this city: a lack of a strong and cohesive vision.

Of course, the centre must pass the economic smell test and public debate is healthy and necessary. Regardless of your stance on the issue, the dialogue should start from a common understanding of Halifax’s vision and its importance to the province. This goes beyond the economics of the centre and its impact on a moderately interesting view. The centre’s decision (and others) would be more straightforward if Halifax had a clear and confident vision. Healthy debates would continue but at least we could answer a fundamental question: Does it contribute to the city’s vision?

We moved here in 1996 from Vancouver because Halifax was a city full of potential and evolving into a destination of choice for business, culture, entrepreneurs and families. It has so many strengths, including its location in a beautiful province, a rich culture and history, a diverse and relatively protected employment base, its status as a capital city and regional economic hub, and being home to numerous universities.

Fourteen years later, I have seen steady deterioration of our downtown core while reading repetitive articles pitting "heritage" against "progress."

Both our heritage and progress have lost out during this time as we debate without a vision. This will continue until we answer an essential question: What kind of Halifax do we want?

This city can retain its rich history and move forward. Our leaders need to see the value of a vibrant, liveable downtown that embraces progress and shows off its heritage.

We all must recognize that Halifax drives the cultural and economic engines of Nova Scotia which benefit the communities beyond HRM. We must focus our strategies to support our strengths and maintain relevance amongst our younger population. We need to retain and motivate our creative class, provide opportunities for our children and attract new people to this great city.

We need to promote Nova Scotia as a province of the future.

The centre presents a timely and critical opportunity to send a strong message that we recognize the importance of this city and are looking forward for the long-term benefit of the province.

Let’s move beyond "potential" and towards a strong and cohesive vision.

Gord Whitakker lives in Halifax.
(from the sunday herald).

I happen to agree with some of what he's saying - Halifax doesn't seem to have a vision of what it wants to be. While I agree with many that the HT and STV have been obstructionist - if you create a true vision and stick to it; their power will weaken. This is part of asking the important questions (often the white elements in the room). It makes their answers on the questions weak and the fact you call them out on it; strong.

I believe HRM's vision definately involve being the hub of commercial development in the region. So what if oil is moving to NFLD - what happens when its gone? There are still plenty of others that want to play in our waters. The key here; is go green. We got that daewoo plant - that's a great start. Now; focus on more green related jobs. Get the plants that manufacture the parts - this could support a better port in Halifax or that new one I've read about. This could also support more trains for CN - which will make them more money (I can hear their lips licking with excitement already).

Focus on getting tidal power jobs too - parts; assembly, expertise. What's the solar map of Nova Scotia like? Are we good for solar or bad?

The focus should be on green industry first; oil and gas next; existing economic factors (tourism, banking, government) and then transportation (did you know YHZ is the closest airport on the European circle route? They could learn from YVR on how to make YHZ into a gateway very simply - which could relieve traffic on airports that are getting pinned in - like Boston, New York and Washington).

All the green jobs may not come to HRM exclusively - but for every one job that's created (1 FTE); the spin off is usually 4 to 5 in the service sector. If Nova Scotia could land 5,000 jobs in green industry; the spin off becomes 20,000 in the service sector. That could be good for NS and good for HRM - because the companies should be convinced to HQ in Halifax. Plus; this would get up the manufacturing numbers - hey fenwick?

[fenwick16]

I enjoyed Gord Whittaker's opinion. It is enjoyable to hear from someone who moved to Halifax from another part of the country. In my case, I agree with everything that he said. I also agree with you Halifaxboyns about creating green jobs, I could include hydro from the Bay of Fundy.

I think Halifax will be the centre of the Maritime Provinces for many generations to come. It certainly needs a better vision of that role. It must also have a better vision as one cohesive municipality - the HRM. It has been several years since amalgamation so this is likely already partially achieved.

[planarchy]

I don't think this has been posted yet:


Crunch time for civic spirit

RALPH SURETTE
Chronicle Herald / Sat, Jul 24 - 12:51 PM


The proposal for a new convention centre complex in downtown Halifax has been delivered, and government is chewing over the implications. Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks has said that by the fall a decision will be made whether something will be built — if so, what, and if not, what the next step will be.

In deciding, the government will also take into account the interests of "all Nova Scotians," Estabrooks said, considering that a public investment possibly north of $140 million will be required.

The interests of all Nova Scotians adds a certain dimension to the argument as the decision-making process percolates. Halifax — Halifax Regional Municipality — is to Nova Scotia as Toronto is to Ontario, hugely dominant in every way, with half the provincial population within its sphere. The vast majority of us go there sometime — even if it’s by ambulance. Having it work properly is in everybody’s interest.

Assuming we have $150 million to spend on the metropolis, what would be "all Nova Scotians’" first choice? I doubt that a new convention centre would rank very high, even if the general economics of convention centres in North America weren’t in fact spectacularly bleak.

If the question was properly put, what would rank first, I suspect, would be a light rail system. Even the beginnings of one would cast Halifax into a higher category as a functioning city — not to mention being beneficial on the energy front and putting an end to those continuous battles over street-widenings to accommodate more cars so draining to the civic spirit. As it is, downtown Halifax is a place as much to be avoided as anything because getting there and getting around is so awkward.

Although hugely dominant in Nova Scotia, in one essential dysfunction Halifax resembles more the small towns of Nova Scotia than the chain of larger Canadian cities to which it logically belongs. Take, typically, Yarmouth, near where I live. In its commercial life, it has become essentially a mall with a hollowed-out downtown attached. In Halifax it’s a dozen malls, but the principle is roughly the same. Except that in cities the size of Halifax, that can be addressed with an effective public transportation system. As soon as getting downtown becomes easy and hassle-free, people follow and so does investment in the downtown, as well as along the rail or subway line.

Are we anywhere near even thinking about this, except in the occasional abortive spate and amid the near-comical antics of HRM municipal council? Should a larger urban vision under provincial initiative be on the government’s mind as it contemplates putting big money into a convention centre? I would think so. Justifying this huge public investment to the rest of the province will require more than the tortured figures the proponents of the project have come up with so far.

There was another unconvincing study this week purporting to show the positive economics of the convention centre — a tax bonanza of $170 million over 10 years, essentially repaying the public investment. Critics say the projected visitor figures to get to that conclusion are grossly over-optimistic. The steady decline of convention business North America-wide since the early 1990s, through boom and bust alike, indicates that it’s on the downside of larger socio-economic changes, and not likely to flourish even if the economy does.

The emotional part of this argument is aesthetic in nature. For proponents, leaving that empty lot in the heart of downtown is just one civic embarrassment too many, while others have found their calling in protecting the views of the harbour from Citadel Hill. For the opponents, there’s also the attachment to the human scale of the area as it exists, with the first round of plans denounced as forbidding concrete with nothing for the pedestrian.

The bigger challenge here is to come up with something broadly acceptable that would boost the civic life-force and go some way to reducing the endless battles over development in downtown Halifax. The first burden of proof is with the developer, Rank Inc. Has it come up with something that does in fact respect the pedestrian character of downtown, doesn’t make unrealistic assumptions about the economics of convention centres, and requires less — or at least more profitable — public investment? I would think those are the points the minister would be insisting on as he assesses the project, meanwhile keeping an eye on the civic future and what the rest of the province will say about spending all that money downtown in times of high austerity.

[fenwick16]

I think that Ralph Surette is the epitome of narrow-mindedness and I wonder why the Chronicle Herald continues to publish his opinions.

We are in the middle of a world-wide economic slowdown; this is the reason for the slowdown in tourism and convention goers. These economic slowdowns are cyclic; if Halifax waits until the economy rebounds then by the time the convention centre is built we will be in the middle of another economic slowdown. Now is the time to build, as the North American economy is showing some signs of recovery.

One of the things that Halifax and Nova Scotia can succeed at (the convention business) is an item that Ralph Surette strongly opposes. Halifax and Nova Scotia already does well with the tourism industry and will undoubtedly succeed with the new convention centre. I have been to many conventions over the past 20 years and I don't see this decline in the convention business that people keep referring to. Teleconferencing has been around for decades now and it hasn't resulted in sales people not visiting clients, and people not traveling to trade shows at convention centres. If Ralph Surette regularly attended conventions and trade shows then he would understand the importance of this business to Halifax and Nova Scotia (and in fact the entire Maritime region).

It is time for Haligonians and Nova Scotians to say NO! to people like Ralph Surette and his backward views, and instead to have confidence in the future of Halifax and Nova Scotia. Halifax has a very educated workforce, these people have to be kept in Nova Scotia if the economy is to benefit.

[Keith P.]

I think that Ralph Surette is the epitome of narrow-mindedness and I wonder why the Chronicle Herald continues to publish his opinions.

He is an old crony of Herald editor Dan Leger's, so that explains it. Leger himself is pretty left-wing, but nothing like Surrette. The other one who needs to be booted from the Herald's roster of columnists is Rachel Brighton, who has a regular Sunday space that is allegedly about business, but never has anything good to say about it and is even more left-wing than Surrette. Both need to go.

[Empire]

The message Peter Kelly sent to the world when he killed the Commonwealth Games (in a back room) is that we are a town that isn’t willing to work hard enough to cease an opportunity that could provide huge dividends for the community. If we have no faith in our own abilities then everything becomes a hard sell to the outside investment community. I haven’t seen many editorials lauding Kelly’s fiscal wisdom or how his decision has proven to be a bonus for taxpayers. For years to come it will be very difficult to attract a sporting event of that magnitude. If the Trade Centre is killed, the same message will be sent once again. We have gone 20 years with virtually no growth in spite of significant potential. The Trade Centre enhances the “Financial Centre” theme that Rodney MacDonald was trying to promote. Millions of taxpayers $$ have been spent on plants and businesses in Nova Scotia that have not panned out. That doesn’t mean we should give up. The only way to break the dependence on federal transfer payments is to work harder to attract investment and that is not done by sitting back and waiting for a solution to come calling or by rejecting big opportunities.

What Halifax is missing:
- Stadium
- Large conference centre
- Light rail
- Subway line - Robie, Barrington/ Gottingen, Quinpool, Spring Garden (30 years from now/ and yes you can bore through bedrock)
- Performing Arts Centre (Waterfront)
- True heritage district
- Select sites for tall office towers downtown
- Bike lanes
- Aquarium (should be built at BIO)
- National scale marine museum (Ottawa funding)
- Better use of transit (more transit hubs with downtown shuttles)
- Water taxis
- Access to McNab's – low impact Stanley Park type urban use
- Forward thinking administration

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q7/empire1_2007/McNabs.jpg

[fenwick16]

I agree with your list and assessment of the Commonwealth Games fallout as hurting Halifax's image. The Commonwealth Games were mismanaging, and it is my opinion that the budget was purposely inflated in order to get additional federal funding but instead it backfired and drove away supporters. I also think that organizers purposely kept details confidential in order not to give the opposition ammunition but again that strategy backfired. In the case of the new convention/trade centre it seems as though the backers have learned from the Commonwealth games fiasco and are releasing the various reports and keeping the public better informed. Also the supporters are better organized with a petition in favour. I didn't see that type of organization of supporters with the Commonwealth Games.

The tarnished image of Halifax could quickly be recovered if Canada wins the 2015 FIFA World Woman's Cup and Halifax becomes one of the several host cities (Hamilton will have the Pan-Am Games that year so they might not be in contention). If Canada gets the bid then I think that Halifax will be mentioned as one of the host cities (there could be 8 Canadian host cities as in the 1999 US tournament - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_FIFA_Women%27s_World_Cup - for example Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Halifax). This would be a good excuse for the federal government to fund a stadium in Halifax and would be far less expensive than the Commonwealth Games. Maybe in the end, losing the Commonwealth Games will turn out to be for the best.

Also, concerning your point about tunneling through bedrock, this is a good point - I would think that tunneling through bedrock would actually be better than tunneling through softer ground since the bedrock will provide better structural support for the tunnel and any buildings above. Maybe Halifax could have a small underground city similar to Montreal's underground city. In parts of the city it could just be a single track to keep the cost down (and then expand it latter if necessary). Having a short subway would get large numbers of buses off the roads and encourage increased ridership. If Halifax gets a subway, then I would travel there just to try out the subway.

[Empire]

I agree with your list and assessment of the Commonwealth Games fallout as hurting Halifax's image. The Commonwealth Games were mismanaging, and it is my opinion that the budget was purposely inflated in order to get additional federal funding but instead it backfired and drove away supporters. I also think that organizers purposely kept details confidential in order not to give the opposition ammunition but again that strategy backfired. In the case of the new convention/trade centre it seems as though the backers have learned from the Commonwealth games fiasco and are releasing the various reports and keeping the public better informed. Also the supporters are better organized with a petition in favour. I didn't see that type of organization of supporters with the Commonwealth Games.

The tarnished image of Halifax could quickly be recovered if Canada wins the 2015 FIFA World Woman's Cup and Halifax becomes one of the several host cities (Hamilton will have the Pan-Am Games that year so they might not be in contention). If Canada gets the bid then I think that Halifax will be mentioned as one of the host cities (there could be 8 Canadian host cities as in the 1999 US tournament - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_FIFA_Women%27s_World_Cup - for example Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Halifax). This would be a good excuse for the federal government to fund a stadium in Halifax and would be far less expensive than the Commonwealth Games. Maybe in the end, losing the Commonwealth Games will turn out to be for the best.

Also, concerning your point about tunneling through bedrock, this is a good point - I would think that tunneling through bedrock would actually be better than tunneling through softer ground since the bedrock will provide better structural support for the tunnel and any buildings above. Maybe Halifax could have a small underground city similar to Montreal's underground city. In parts of the city it could just be a single track to keep the cost down (and then expand it latter if necessary). Having a short subway would get large numbers of buses off the roads and encourage increased ridership. If Halifax gets a subway, then I would travel there just to try out the subway.

Start with a twin line from the Seawall to the end of Gottingen. Hub would be Scotia Square. The line would be connected to a LRT line through the rail cut. The train station would be the first stop. This project would need to be co-funded by the Feds under the guise of necessary infrastructure for Regional/hub/capital cities.

Enter at Seawall behind train station.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q7/empire1_2007/Subway.jpg

[fenwick16]

This project would need to be co-funded by the Feds under the guise of necessary infrastructure for Regional/hub/capital cities.

Enter at Seawall behind train station.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q7/empire1_2007/Subway.jpg

The federal government seems to like funding such projects.

Where is this picture taken - what subway line? (it looks a bit like the Philadelphia regional line, however I am sure that there are numerous ones that look similar across North America).

[MonctonRad]

:previous:

Not to rain on your parade, but boring through bedrock would be expensive, especially for a city the size of Halifax. At present, the smallest Canadian city with a subway is Edmonton at 1.1M people. I still would favour a surface LRT/streetcar system for the downtown core and commuter rail to reach the downtown from the suburbs.

re: the Nova Centre; I view this project as an absolute must for the city. There will soon be significant regional competition for the mid-sized convention market with both Frederiction and Charlottetown building major new convention facilities. Halifax needs to ramp up it's infrastructure to attract bigger conventions to the region. This is how Halifax would maintain it's competitiveness, while at the same time not damaging the new facilities in Fredericton and Charlottetown.

I firmly believe that there is untapped potential out there in the major convention market. The Maritimes are well recognized as a popular tourism destination. If Halifax were able to enter the major convention market, I'm sure that it would rapidly become a popular convention destination for those organizations that were previously unable to come here.

Just look at how the cruise ship industry has exploded in the region (Halifax and Saint John in particular). Who would have predicted that? With all of Halifax's attributes, I am convinced that a major convention centre would be successful. :tup:

[fenwick16]

:previous:

Not to rain on your parade, but boring through bedrock would be expensive, especially for a city the size of Halifax.

The entire line would not have to be subway - parts could be above ground. It might actually be cheaper in some areas to go underground - for example no one would approve a surface LRT through the Commons or through the Citadel whereas a subway could go under both if it makes sense. Likewise with the downtown, a 2 Km tunnel would likely be sufficient under downtown Halifax and then you have true rapid transit without disturbing the street traffic. Another consideration are the hills in Halifax - a subway would result in gentler slope for the LRT.

A 1 Km tunnel was bored under downtown Halifax for the Harbour Solutions which I think is large enough for people to walk through (I think I read about Mayor Kelly going down into the tunnel to promote the Harbour Solutions project - is this right?).

[JustinMacD]

The message Peter Kelly sent to the world when he killed the Commonwealth Games (in a back room) is that we are a town that isn’t willing to work hard enough to cease an opportunity that could provide huge dividends for the community. If we have no faith in our own abilities then everything becomes a hard sell to the outside investment community. I haven’t seen many editorials lauding Kelly’s fiscal wisdom or how his decision has proven to be a bonus for taxpayers. For years to come it will be very difficult to attract a sporting event of that magnitude. If the Trade Centre is killed, the same message will be sent once again. We have gone 20 years with virtually no growth in spite of significant potential. The Trade Centre enhances the “Financial Centre” theme that Rodney MacDonald was trying to promote. Millions of taxpayers $$ have been spent on plants and businesses in Nova Scotia that have not panned out. That doesn’t mean we should give up. The only way to break the dependence on federal transfer payments is to work harder to attract investment and that is not done by sitting back and waiting for a solution to come calling or by rejecting big opportunities.

What Halifax is missing:
- Stadium
- Large conference centre
- Light rail
- Subway line - Robie, Barrington/ Gottingen, Quinpool, Spring Garden (30 years from now/ and yes you can bore through bedrock)
- Performing Arts Centre (Waterfront)
- True heritage district
- Select sites for tall office towers downtown
- Bike lanes
- Aquarium (should be built at BIO)
- National scale marine museum (Ottawa funding)
- Better use of transit (more transit hubs with downtown shuttles)
- Water taxis
- Access to McNab's – low impact Stanley Park type urban use
- Forward thinking administration

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q7/empire1_2007/McNabs.jpg

Could you imagine a beautiful Opera House/Performing Arts Centre/Ballet Centre on the waterfront? The Opera House in Sydney, Australia is an iconic structure. Something like that, of course on a much smaller scale, would be incredible. Even the STV crew probably would approve something like that because it'd be so classy.

[Empire]

The entire line would not have to be subway - parts could be above ground. It might actually be cheaper in some areas to go underground - for example no one would approve a surface LRT through the Commons or through the Citadel whereas a subway could go under both if it makes sense. Likewise with the downtown, a 2 Km tunnel would likely be sufficient under downtown Halifax and then you have true rapid transit without disturbing the street traffic. Another consideration are the hills in Halifax - a subway would result in gentler slope for the LRT.

A 1 Km tunnel was bored under downtown Halifax for the Harbour Solutions which I think is large enough for people to walk through (I think I read about Mayor Kelly going down into the tunnel to promote the Harbour Solutions project - is this right?).

The 1km tunnel was ~8.0ft in diameter. In the 1800's they bored through the Rockies for the CPR. Yes it would be expensive but if you were to tunnel through sand, silt, loam etc. you would have additional structural issues. The 1km water treatment tunnel was lined with concrete making it a 8.0ft dia pipe. Because the peninsula is so limited for transportation space some innovative measures will be needed in the future in spite of a population much smaller than Edmonton.

[Empire]

The federal government seems to like funding such projects.

Where is this picture taken - what subway line? (it looks a bit like the Philadelphia regional line, however I am sure that there are numerous ones that look similar across North America).

New Jersey, not sure what line.

[someone123]

Because the peninsula is so limited for transportation space some innovative measures will be needed in the future in spite of a population much smaller than Edmonton.

Actually Edmonton's population was approximately 400,000 when they started planning for the LRT. In 1974 construction began and the population was 445,000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Light_Rail_Transit

[halifaxboyns]

Actually Edmonton's population was approximately 400,000 when they started planning for the LRT. In 1974 construction began and the population was 445,000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Light_Rail_Transit

It's a quite common mistake to make; to assume Edmonton is 1.1 million - when its a regional population. It happens around here in Calgary too; because everyone lumps High River, Airdrie, Cochrane, Okatoks and Rockyview County in with calgary - giving a regional population of about 1.5 million. But calgary is actually 1.1 million according to the City's census numbers released last week.

[halifaxboyns]

I've taken some of Empire's list; because I want to touch on a couple things:
What Halifax is missing:

- Stadium
I think we've all agreed that HRM needs one - whether it's Fenwick's vision for a soccer field or my vision for a new hockey arena. I think Fenwick's vision is cheaper in the long run; but at some point a new arena for hockey will be needed. Plus if the population gets up there; we might able to support a better hockey team.

- Large conference centre
Totally agree.

- Subway line - Robie, Barrington/ Gottingen, Quinpool, Spring Garden (30 years from now/ and yes you can bore through bedrock)
Problem with bedrock drilling is the expense, but it is coming down as the technology improves. I'd say once HRM reaches the 500,000 is the best time to consider this and see where the other two levels of government would be to cost share.

- Performing Arts Centre (Waterfront)
That's a new idea I've not heard floated - I agree. Could be built on infill into the harbour - coming from the LRT (as could a new hockey arena).

- True heritage district
I like the heritage streetscapes districts and that one has been setout in HbD. I definately think that some other buildings could be kept as part of a heritage program - more walking tours to show this off are needed. Heritage can be kept while development occurs.

- Select sites for tall office towers downtown
You must be reading my mind - yet again I agree. Downtown Dartmouth; with some select areas being retained for heritage and for residential. Sites in downtown Halifax but also in other locations like Bedford and the Business Parks.

- Aquarium (should be built at BIO)
- National scale marine museum (Ottawa funding)
These two are new ideas too - but I like them and totally agree with them. These are things that could be cost shared with various levels of government to reduce cost to HRM tax payers.

- Better use of transit (more transit hubs with downtown shuttles)
More residential in downtown and adjacent areas will achieve this - its underway slowly; but will improve with time.

- Water taxis, Access to McNab's – low impact Stanley Park type urban use
I put these together because I think you could also lump George's island into this as well. What a great idea and I believe its been mentioned before; but I'm totally in support of this.

- Forward thinking administration
I've said it before and I'll say it again; I get the feeling that administration is taking the tone from council; which is don't rock the boat. So, I think administration is being given direction to be middle of the road. I on the other hand believe you can't progress a city without ticking some people off (which depending on who they are can be sometimes fun - I have an evil streak). It's my goal to come back to work for HRM at some point; I hope. There was an article that many of the senior administrators will be retiring in 5 years - so I'll be on that. :)

[fenwick16]

- Forward thinking administration
I've said it before and I'll say it again; I get the feeling that administration is taking the tone from council; which is don't rock the boat. So, I think administration is being given direction to be middle of the road. I on the other hand believe you can't progress a city without ticking some people off (which depending on who they are can be sometimes fun - I have an evil streak). It's my goal to come back to work for HRM at some point; I hope. There was an article that many of the senior administrators will be retiring in 5 years - so I'll be on that. :)

According to the allnovascotia.com it could happen sooner than that. Reportedly quite a few executives might decide to follow Dan English's move and move on. Will you be able to stand up to the councillors halifaxboyns? It sounds like the councillors really chew the staffers up.

[Dmajackson]

It's a quite common mistake to make; to assume Edmonton is 1.1 million - when its a regional population. It happens around here in Calgary too; because everyone lumps High River, Airdrie, Cochrane, Okatoks and Rockyview County in with calgary - giving a regional population of about 1.5 million. But calgary is actually 1.1 million according to the City's census numbers released last week.

To be more exact Calgary has only 1.05 million (I read the article in a paper last week). :P

I think a LRT system similar to Calgary's C-Train could work in Halifax. It could start off simply with a two-track line running on the roads between Mumford and Spring Garden.

Anyways I'll post more details of what I think in the proper thread.

[halifaxboyns]

According to the allnovascotia.com it could happen sooner than that. Reportedly quite a few executives might decide to follow Dan English's move and move on. Will you be able to stand up to the councillors halifaxboyns? It sounds like the councillors really chew the staffers up.

If I can stand up to Calgary City Council, I can stand up to anything. Alderman Hodges loves to talk about the 'dudes' who pull 'capers'. The first time I went up; he asked me if I remembered what happened to a parcel back in 1982. I was 5. lol
So I said to him; with respect - I was 5.
He laughed - ever since then I've been okay. McIvor can be another story; but bring it on.
We learn by doing - besides Councillor Sloane (so I'm told by my family) is a distant cousin.

[halifaxboyns]

To be more exact Calgary has only 1.05 million (I read the article in a paper last week). :P

I think a LRT system similar to Calgary's C-Train could work in Halifax. It could start off simply with a two-track line running on the roads between Mumford and Spring Garden.

Anyways I'll post more details of what I think in the proper thread.

The problem with the C-train is that it utilizes an entire street; to itself (with the exception of other transit buses). So in order to do that in Halifax; you'd have to close down Spring Garden Road and Barrington Street to traffic. Otherwise; you'd have to consider other streets like Sackville and Brunswick.

I hope you enjoyed the tour of Calgary.

[fenwick16]

I honestly feel bad for the municipality of Halifax. It has so much potential to grow and become a great city, but the city staffers who are probably the best qualified to be making proper decisions for the municipality keep get forced out by the councillors. And the sad thing is that a couple times their reason has been that they don't like things that the CAO has said. The city council has become dysfunctional and I don't know how it can be corrected, except that the residents need better qualified councillors to vote for.

[halifaxboyns]

I honestly feel bad for the municipality of Halifax. It has so much potential to grow and become a great city, but the city staffers who are probably the best qualified to be making proper decisions for the municipality keep get forced out by the councillors. And the sad thing is that a couple times their reason has been that they don't like things that the CAO has said. The city council has become dysfunctional and I don't know how it can be corrected, except that the residents need better qualified councillors to vote for.

When you don't have firm leadership - then you don't get results. Now whether that failed leadership is as a result of the City Manager or Council; it's hard to say (IMO).

One thing that I will say about Halifax; is that the youth movement is growing. More and more people in university (especially from the Planning studies program at Dal and Geography at SMU) seem to be popping up at the City council meetings on major or 'controversial' projects and having their say. One speaker recently talked about him moving from small town NB to get and education and wanting to stay in Halifax because he loved it. More of this needs to occur and we need to be encouraging debate about projects as we go forward.

I don't think we should stop having debate about moving forward - there needs to be some discussion; but Halifax needs a firm vision of moving forward. Does Industry grow to build the economy? If so - what kind of industry? What is the vision of downtown? These are important questions and thinks to create vision for. These are questions that need to be answered soon; but if they aren't - the new regional plan could certainly answer them.

The next regional plan is needed by 2026 and I would say the best way to start the process is to have the conversation of the vision. Calgary did that as part of the Plan It Calgary process. The first part - they called Vision Calgary and it asked all the questions about how the city should grow and feel in the future; I'd say that is the first part of the process for HRM. The second part will be implementation of that vision - by creating the policies to support that vision.

Vancouver and BC have a very centred vision for their cities; a very specific way of designing and architecture; HRM could have that too. We just need to sit down and define it. Will it be easy? Heck no.

[halifaxboyns]

From the CBC website; but written by the Canadian Press:

Downtown Halifax torn over bid to construct convention centre in city core
Published: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 | 4:23 PM ET
Canadian Press Ronan O'Beirne, The Canadian Press
HALIFAX - A proposal to build a convention centre in Halifax has triggered a heated debate over the city's downtown core, which some say is in dire need of revitalization after years of neglect.

Downtown Halifax — particularly the Barrington Street area — once brimmed with shops, theatres and restaurants, attracting droves of families who sought an escape from their daily work lives.

But in recent years windows have been shuttered, doors closed and buildings torn down. Earlier this year, the old Halifax Herald building was demolished, leaving a concrete cavity the size of a football field in the middle of downtown.

Development company Rank Inc. has proposed to erect a 14-storey convention centre on the site. Members of the local business community are banking on the centre to be a shot in the arm for downtown.

Paul MacKinnon, executive director of the Downtown Halifax Business Commission, says the convention centre would represent a "momentum shift" for downtown, which he says the municipality has neglected for the past 15 years.

"The potential of downtown and of Halifax as a whole is greater than what we've been able to achieve," he said, adding that the city "can no longer afford to ignore downtown."

MacKinnon said the entire downtown core stands to gain from the new convention centre.

"We know from talking to businesses that the convention industry's spinoff benefits are extremely important for downtown," he said, adding that approval of the bid would also be a critical boost in morale for the business community.

But not all are convinced that the project would be a watershed for the downtown.

Allan Robertson, a retired management consultant who now works with a group against the project called the Coalition to Save the View, said the centre would only sequester convention delegates.

"The essence of a convention centre is to get (delegates) in and keep them in," he said. "They don't have a lot to do with encouraging people to go out."

He cited a report by fellow coalition member Beverly Miller, who drew up a list of 10 alternatives for improving the downtown.

They include changing municipal tax policies, which Miller says unfairly favour suburban retail parks at the expense of downtown.

Robertson also suggested that it could be made into a European-style public square to act as a hub for the downtown.

Much has been written in local media and blogs in recent months about the state of Halifax's downtown core, especially Barrington Street.

Barrington was once the heart of activity downtown. The street used to house marquee department stores like Eaton's and Woolworth's, as well as two cinemas.

Garry Shutlak, an archivist with Nova Scotia Archives, said Barrington's profile began to slip as early as the 1960s, when Eaton's moved to the Halifax Shopping Centre. The exodus of big-name stores continued over the next two decades, as more shops opted for suburban malls.

Barrington has seen a similar slew of closures in the past three years. Sam the Record Man abruptly closed up shop in 2007, and has since been followed by Dooly's pool hall, CD Plus and photography store Carsand-Mosher, among others.

Cheryl Stewart, the chairwoman of Fusion Halifax, an advocacy group for Halifax youths, said this trend would only continue if the bid for the convention centre is not approved.

"It would be another hit on our collective confidence. We have to be less risk-averse as a community," she said.

MacKinnon and Stewart are not alone in their support. The Halifax Chamber of Commerce and Mayor Peter Kelly have voiced their enthusiasm, and an online petition backing the convention centre amassed more than 1,600 signatures.

But the Coalition to Save the View says the centre would be an immense burden on Nova Scotia's taxpayers, and would not bring in the tax revenue the government expects, which according to one study is estimated to be $170 million over 10 years.

The government received Rank's proposal for the site last week and says it will take several weeks to sift through the bid before coming to a decision.

There are no details on a price tag for the entire project, which would also include hotel, office and retail space, but estimates for the public portion of the convention space alone run at between $120 and $140 million.

[worldlyhaligonian]

PPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTT

These assholes are talking about changing the tax structure downtown, but at the same time being obstuctionist against the very type of development that would result from making downtown office developments more feasible.

Give me a fucking break.

And this Robertson guy was a managment consultant? So turning one of the most valuable pieces of land downtown into "a european-style public space" is your idea of good managment? I guess he doesn't have to worry about the economy or job growth anymore because he's retired.

I thought the Waterfront, Commons, Public Gardens, Victoria Park, and Cornwallis park fufilled the public space need. How much green space or public space do we need in this city because it seems to be abundant in my opinion.

[someone123]

The Grand Parade is a block away from this site.

The "alternatives" present a false dilemma. Tax structure should be fixed regardless of whether or not the convention centre is built, although I have serious doubts when it comes to council following through on something like that. It's much easier to get them to do something like approve spending on a project.

[worldlyhaligonian]

The Grand Parade is a block away from this site.

The "alternatives" present a false dilemma. Tax structure should be fixed regardless of whether or not the convention centre is built, although I have serious doubts when it comes to council following through on something like that. It's much easier to get them to do something like approve spending on a project.

Its totally a false dilemma... there is no reason not to have a tax structure that is most socially beneficial and this project is not holding back such changes to be made. In fact, a convention centre downtown might enable the municipality to make changes while improving or keeping tax revenues neutral in the downtown core.

[Empire]

Credit: Barque Picton Castle on Flickr
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1114/4729774717_54c03820c9_b.jpg

It would be nice to see The Centennial Group swap lots with Rank Inc. This waterfront lot would be spectacular for a combo Performing Arts Centre and Convention Centre. This could then be cost shared. The waterfront lot is approx. 20% larger than the Herald/Midtown lot.

[halifaxboyns]

It would be nice to see The Centennial Group swap lots with Rank Inc. This waterfront lot would be spectacular for a combo Performing Arts Centre and Convention Centre. This could then be cost shared. The waterfront lot is approx. 20% larger than the Herald/Midtown lot.

I was first going to post my comment without checking - good thing I did look. I pulled up the site on HRM's GIS system. I had thought there were viewplanes on the site, but apparently there are not.

So it would be very interesting if the put it here - they'd have the advantage of being at almost 0 for height above sea level - so they'd actually get more benefit out of the grade change.

The blue colour of the building would blend in well with the water; now that it's cleaner! LOL

[Empire]

I was first going to post my comment without checking - good thing I did look. I pulled up the site on HRM's GIS system. I had thought there were viewplanes on the site, but apparently there are not.

So it would be very interesting if the put it here - they'd have the advantage of being at almost 0 for height above sea level - so they'd actually get more benefit out of the grade change.

The blue colour of the building would blend in well with the water; now that it's cleaner! LOL

Maybe change the office component to more hotel or residential. A conference centre with close-up harbour views would be an attraction on its own.

[beyeas]

Maybe change the office component to more hotel or residential. A conference centre with close-up harbour views would be an attraction on its own.

It's funny you say that, because I was stuck in traffic on Lower Water the other day going down to Purdy's to pick up my girlfriend... and as I was sitting there I looked out at the Tugs Pub site and thought "That would be an awesome site for a performing arts centre"!

[fenwick16]

Having a convention centre on the waterfront makes a lot of sense. The visitors would be very impressed by being right on the harbour with the cruise ships close by.

[kph06]

This is a retraction posted in The Coast (http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/archives/2010/07/28/apology-to-corporate-research-associates-inc-and-don-mills) about a previous article by Tim Bousquet. At the time I read it, it reeked of Heritage Trust propaganda and now they coast is admitting they (Tim) basically put no research into the article. Good reporting Tim, unfortunately it appears they did not suspend his pen or keyboard.

Apology to Corporate Research Associates Inc. and Don Mills

Posted by Kyle Shaw on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:59 PM

A recent blog post, written by Tim Bousquet and published at thecoast.ca May 26, was unfair to local polling company Corporate Research Associates and its president, Don Mills. The bulk of the blog post repeated excerpts from a press release from the citizens’ group Save the View. That press release claimed that a CRA poll on the proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax “included a confusing double negative,” but that’s simply incorrect: We’ve checked the poll questions, and they are straight-forward and direct. Save the View was wrong to claim otherwise, and The Coast was wrong to unquestioningly reprint the allegation without verfication of the facts. Moreover, the same blog post was headlined “Is CRA push-polling the convention centre?” Push-polling is a serious and damaging allegation, and if demonstrated would injure the professional reputation and integrity of a company in the market research and public opinion polling business. But while the headline raised the suggestion that Mills was push-polling, there was no effort made to contact him or otherwise ascertain the facts behind the accusation. This was simply bad reporting. Furthermore, there was no truth to such an allegation. For these failures, both The Coast and Tim Bousquet whole-heartedly and without reservation apologize to Mills and CRA for this false and damaging allegation. There is nothing at all to suggest that they have been push-polling or using confusing language in their polls, and we regret suggesting otherwise. The original blog post has been taken offline.

[fenwick16]

:previous: Thanks for posting kph06. The fact that The Coast issued this retraction likely indicates that they were threatened with a law suit by Corporate Research Associates Inc. (just my wild guess based on the language that they used). Hopefully, the Save the View group will also be forced to issue a retraction or, if not, I hope they will get sued. I really enjoy seeing such groups get caught twisting the truth. :tup: :tup: :tup:

[Haliguy]

This is a retraction posted in The Coast (http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/archives/2010/07/28/apology-to-corporate-research-associates-inc-and-don-mills) about a previous article by Tim Bousquet. At the time I read it, it reeked of Heritage Trust propaganda and now they coast is admitting they (Tim) basically put no research into the article. Good reporting Tim, unfortunately it appears they did not suspend his pen or keyboard.

Apology to Corporate Research Associates Inc. and Don Mills

Posted by Kyle Shaw on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:59 PM

A recent blog post, written by Tim Bousquet and published at thecoast.ca May 26, was unfair to local polling company Corporate Research Associates and its president, Don Mills. The bulk of the blog post repeated excerpts from a press release from the citizens’ group Save the View. That press release claimed that a CRA poll on the proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax “included a confusing double negative,” but that’s simply incorrect: We’ve checked the poll questions, and they are straight-forward and direct. Save the View was wrong to claim otherwise, and The Coast was wrong to unquestioningly reprint the allegation without verfication of the facts. Moreover, the same blog post was headlined “Is CRA push-polling the convention centre?” Push-polling is a serious and damaging allegation, and if demonstrated would injure the professional reputation and integrity of a company in the market research and public opinion polling business. But while the headline raised the suggestion that Mills was push-polling, there was no effort made to contact him or otherwise ascertain the facts behind the accusation. This was simply bad reporting. Furthermore, there was no truth to such an allegation. For these failures, both The Coast and Tim Bousquet whole-heartedly and without reservation apologize to Mills and CRA for this false and damaging allegation. There is nothing at all to suggest that they have been push-polling or using confusing language in their polls, and we regret suggesting otherwise. The original blog post has been taken offline.

Nice...hope see more of this :tup:

[hfxtradesman]

haven't been around much on the job due to vacations:banana: but what i did find out this week was the NDP was already asking questions about the project and will have an answer by the end of Aug. still 50/50

[fenwick16]

haven't been around much on the job due to vacations:banana: but what i did find out this week was the NDP was already asking questions about the project and will have an answer by the end of Aug. still 50/50

Thanks for the info hfxtradesman. Do you have any info on the Waterside project? Several of us are wondering if it is being delayed?

[hfxtradesman]

Thanks for the info hfxtradesman. Do you have any info on the Waterside project? Several of us are wondering if it is being delayed?

don't know just yet, alot of people from some of these projects are off also. All i know about this one, is that not one worker has been inside for a long time.

[fenwick16]

Although it is just my personal view, I can't imagine the Waterside Project being delayed because of the increased downtown vacancy rate. Such things are cyclic and by the time it is built things will likely be improving. The only thing that I can think of is that time is required to do a detailed design of the restoration work (or maybe they are trying to get a subsidy for the restoration work that they are doing?)

[halifaxboyns]

I find it very interesting that this retraction in the Coast from the Editor. Very interesting.
I take it that someone probably served them with papers advising that they were in a very bad position and they were prepared to take the matter to court.

I've not seen any such statements on the STV website - but it may be coming. Or they may not do it and feel they have a good case in court. All I can say is; it's about time developers start standing up for themselves. Progress is not a bad thing to say the least.

[fenwick16]

Has anyone had a chance to look at the Save the View website lately? It now looks like a cheap tabloid with one-sided information and trumped up news headlines - http://www.savetheview.ca/ . They are even trying to get sympathy votes with a news headline stating that convention centre boosters crashed their news conference (that news still bring a smile to my face).

[JustinMacD]

Has anyone had a chance to look at the Save the View website lately? It now looks like a cheap tabloid with one-sided information and trumped up news headlines - http://www.savetheview.ca/ . They are even trying to get sympathy votes with a news headline stating that convention centre boosters crashed their news conference (that news still bring a smile to my face).

It's always been a terribly amateurish website.

I love how those photos (the ones that show their fake buildings blocking out the view) look like they're taken by someone sitting on the ground so it makes it look even more dramatic. It's absolutely laughable.

This also cracked me up:

91% of the public are opposed to the two Convention Centre towers
73% of the public surveyed preferred to keep the existing view. The survey has a margin of error of 7%, 95 times out of 100
--

These numbers are so inaccurate it's insane. 91% of the public is opposed to this? I've heard very little outrage and most of the people I talk to think these STV people are nuts. Is there even any doubt that these numbers were completely made up or that they polled their Heritage Trust buddies? LOL I mean come on. At least make it a belivable number.

[terrynorthend]

It's always been a terribly amateurish website.

I love how those photos (the ones that show their fake buildings blocking out the view) look like they're taken by someone sitting on the ground so it makes it look even more dramatic. It's absolutely laughable.

This also cracked me up:

91% of the public are opposed to the two Convention Centre towers
73% of the public surveyed preferred to keep the existing view. The survey has a margin of error of 7%, 95 times out of 100
--



I'm sure what they did was plant a person with a clipboard atop Citadel Hill, with that rendering of the blacked-out mess superimposed on the photo, showing it to Citadel visitors and saying something to the effect of- "Its a lovely view today isn't it, don't you think it would be a shame if it looked like this instead?"

[phrenic]

It's always been a terribly amateurish website.

If we're going to be grading web sites, take a look at www.novacentre.ca

It's nothing but gross basic html except for the analytics javascript. In terms of design, www.savetheview.ca wins.

[Phalanx]

Kind of curious that an organization so in favour of 'democracy' (or their version of it, anyway) and has such 'obvious' overwhelming support doesn't allow public commentary or feedback on their 'news'.

[fenwick16]

If we're going to be grading web sites, take a look at www.novacentre.ca

It's nothing but gross basic html except for the analytics javascript. In terms of design, www.savetheview.ca wins.

I will pick the one that just sticks to facts - in other words the Rank website.

[Jringe01]

www.savetheview.ca also says that
"The proposed Convention Centre towers fly in the face of current best practices in the world’s great historic cities like London, Paris, Jerusalem, Vienna, Charleston and Quebec City. These great cities are tightening design controls and blocking the erection of towers in their city centres. Shouldn’t Halifax, a great Canadian historic city, be doing the same?"

However I would surmise that they haven't taken a real good look at the towers currently under construction (and proposed) in the City and in Westminster/Lambeth etc...it also helps cities like London and Paris is that they have set aside areas specifically for high-rise construction because they have the space, money, economy and political will do do so...where would they propose building "LaDefense" in Halifax???

[Jringe01]

The Halifax Chamber of Commerce and Mayor Peter Kelly have voiced their enthusiasm, and an online petition backing the convention centre amassed more than 1,600 signatures.

Anyone have the link for this petition. I'd like to sign it if it's still an option. :-)