[ErickMontreal]

Saputo, Gillett aim for Montreal MLS franchise

http://www.canoe.com/sports/galeries/20070921153124_stade/09.jpg

Canadian Press

March 26, 2008 at 1:09 PM EDT

MONTREAL — Montreal Canadiens owner George Gillett has teamed up with the Montreal Impact in a bid for a Major League Soccer franchise, Impact president Joey Saputo said Wednesday.

"I can confirm that we are in discussions with Gillett Entertainment Group as well as with Major League Soccer to bring an MLS franchise to Montreal," Saputo said in a statement. "However, I am currently in no position to share any more details, since doing so would jeopardize the process."

Montreal La Presse reported that they hope to call the team Montreal FC and begin play in the 2009 season.

http://www.940montreal.com/blog_sports/images/Stade%20Saputo%203.jpg

The two would split the $30-million franchise fee as well as a $12-million expansion of Saputo Stadium from 13,000 to 20,000 seats. The privately financed facility near Olympic Stadium in the city's east end is set to open this season.

The report said Gillett's company and Saputo informed MLS of their interest in a letter on March 12.

Gillett became majority owner of the Canadiens in 2001. In 2007, he teamed with Dallas Stars owner Tom Hicks to purchase soccer giant Liverpool and a few months later became majority owner of the Gillett-Evernham NASCAR team.

[rapswin!]

I would love to see the MTL join the MLS with Toronto FC as a Canadian team. Do the Impact get alot fans?

[MTLskyline]

I would love to see the MTL join the MLS with Toronto FC as a Canadian team. Do the Impact get alot fans?

about 11,000 per game. Certainly being in MLS combined with the new stadium will raise that

[rapswin!]

if Montreal got the team don't be suprised to hear an increase in seats for the staduim after the team's first year. There are already talks of an increase of seats for the TFC staduim.

[kitchener-lrt]

I'd love for more Canadian teams to join the MLS, and Montreal seems like the perfect addition!

[Innersoul1]

This would be Brilliant! If Vancouver could figure out something also it would really do well for the game in this country.

[Rico Rommheim]

great news! Montreal is as crazy about football as TO. I believe the impacts were getting 10-11000 fans per game in a stadium made for 8000 people.

[Nicko999]

I think the new team(if we get one) would have alot of fans. Maybe more than Toronto???
Let's just hope!:tup:

[1ajs]

great news! Montreal is as crazy about football as TO. I believe the impacts were getting 10-11000 fans per game in a stadium made for 8000 people.
no wonder why they had to tighten all those loose bolts after the first game...

good for canada :cool:

[shappy]

great news! Hopefully we'll get an intense rivalry going (duh).

[vid]

Sa puto! :tup:

[trueviking]

montreal should have a team...the impact draw more fans than some MLS teams....as a matter of fact they have a higher average attendance than the averages of leagues in every scandinavian country, czech, austria, belgium, greece and even portugal.

TFC have a canadian exclusivity clause until the end of 2010 however, so if montreal were to come in before that, they would have to negotiate a settlement.

and their stadium has real grass, not the plastic embarasment of BMO.

now lets get that damn stadium built in vancouver....whats taking so long?

[Rico Rommheim]

-

[elsonic]

it' been many years before Expos leave for DC that Soccer was way way over baseball in term of popularity. thanks to our huge European, Latino and African communities.

[SHOFEAR]

Any fire cracker companies in montreal I can invest in?

[cornholio]

Would be great but could be bad news for Vancouver because the MLS is just about done expanding - for probably a long time. If Vancouver doesn't get a MLS team because of the incompetent city staff and councilors then ill loose it...well actually I wont because I wont be living here for much longer because iv had with the city anyways. Great city, even greater province but it feels like im living in some repressed totalitarian country. But thats a whole different subject.
Anyways I do hope Montreal gets it.

[kitchener-lrt]

Maybe more than Toronto???
Let's just hope!:tup:

TFC sells out almost every game:tup: .

[PhilippeMtl]

that, they would have to negotiate a settlement.

and their stadium has real grass, not the plastic embarasment of BMO.



Except for this point, BMO Field is such a nice stadium. It is by far, the nicest canadian stadium for a soccer game...

Hope we will get a team here. I can't wait for a futur Montreal -Toronto rivalty 11 months a year.

[MolsonExport]

Saputo...wonder if he still has his mob connections.

I recall a big article in the Glob and Snail a few years back detailing his links to the Montreal Mafia.

[Mister F]

How about we establish our own professional soccer league? Canada has to be the only country in the world whose professional sports system piggybacks on another country's. One or two pro soccer teams in a country of 33 million is pretty pathetic. Six hockey teams is even more pathetic.

[Acajack]

Mister F, I think it’s pretty pathetic too, but I’ve pretty much given up on this. Most Canadians are so used to piggybacking with the American leagues that they can’t even envision anything else, and come up with dubious excuses like “big country, small population” (guess they’ve never heard of Australia), or proximity to a large neighbour (they’ve never heard of Scotland, Wales, Belgium, Switzerland, Denmark and Portugal either, I suppose).

So, bienvenue à Montréal MLS. Let’s make the best of it!

[shappy]

there is nothing pathetic about it if you consider the land area and population distribution (which you'd obviously have to).

[Mister F]

^See the post above yours.

[Acajack]

Sorry for being so blunt but you have heard of Australia, haven’t you? Kangaroos? Crocodile Dundee? “Waltzing Matilda”? Any of this ring a bell?

Oz isn't the only example. Norway is also fairly large and sparsely populated. Although the distances aren’t always that great, the geography and bad roads mean you pretty much have to fly between all of the major cities. Yet this country of less than 5 million people can support its own 14-team soccer “Premier League”.

[shappy]

so then please explain why Canada does not have more NHL teams or an extensive national soccer league. Apart from simply being pathetic, of course.

[trueviking]

^i agree with you....its pure lameness, nothing else...a lot smaller countries than canada have leagues.

canada is the only country in the world without a soccer league....even vatican city used to have one, but the big hats slowed them down too much and made headers difficult.

[Acajack]

I wasn’t saying that Canada as a whole was pathetic, but its pro sports situation definitely is.

This issue was beaten to death in a recent thread on the NFL coming to Toronto. The main reason cited (surprise, surprise) was an inferiority complex vis-à-vis all things American.

Beyond that, I guess we’d have to do a national psychoanalysis for which I unfortunately have neither the expertise nor the time.

[Acajack]

Trueviking:

The three main soccer clubs in Canada (Toronto FC, L’Impact de Montréal, Vancouver Whitecaps) are actually trying to address the anomaly of them being in different, U.S.-dominated leagues by organizing some type of Canadian “derby” where all three clubs would perhaps play home-and-home series against each other, to determine a “champion” Canadian club.

[samne]

From the Star:

TFC to face two other Canadian teams


MORGAN CAMPBELL
SPORTS REPORTER

About a year ago, executives from Toronto FC, the Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps got together knowing they wanted to co-operate to promote soccer in Canada, but unsure what form their alliance would take.

Yesterday, the picture became much clearer when the three teams announced they would take part in a round-robin tournament to decide who will compete in the first CONCACAF Champions League event later this year.

The matches start in Montreal on May 27 and wrap up in Toronto on July 22. The team with the most points at the end advances to the regional tournament, which is a qualifier for the FIFA Club World Championship.

For Montreal and Vancouver, which both play in the United Soccer Leagues' first division, the tournament presents a chance to test themselves against a Major League Soccer squad.

And for the owners of all three teams, the round robin is a welcome show of unity and stability on a Canadian soccer scene often defined by dysfunction.

"This is the most exciting evolution of our sport in this country," said Whitecaps president Bob Lenarduzzi. "It really does provide a focus that we've never had."

Tom Anselmi, the Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment executive in charge of Toronto FC, acknowledges scheduling the six games wasn't easy. All three teams had to squeeze in tournament games around a full slate of league matches, but Anselmi says the payoff will outweigh the aggravation.

"Any time you bring three different constituents together it's a lot of work. In the world of soccer it's a little more work," he said. "(But) we all have a responsibility to the game."

The CONCACAF Champions Cup, a tournament that runs from late winter to early spring, involves top teams from various leagues in North and Central America, but never had Canadian representation. When it ends this year it will be replaced by the Champions League, which for the first time gives Canadian teams a realistic chance to qualify for the FIFA Club World Championship. Toronto FC's only chance at qualifying last year was to have won both the MLS title and then the Champions Cup.

At the news conference, Impact president Joey Saputo affirmed reports that team management had teamed up with the Gillett family, which owns the NHL's Montreal Canadiens and Premier League soccer's Liverpool FC, to pitch Major League Soccer about joining the league next season. The Impact are set to move into a 13,000-seat stadium later this spring.

Major League Soccer will add teams in Seattle and Philadelphia in each of the next two seasons. The league hasn't yet announced plans to expand to Montreal, but that doesn't bother the Impact's ownership.

[Overground]

I was just about to post that:) I've been awaiting quite awhile for the info to be released on the qualifying details for Champions League. This is great news for the 3 Canadian teams and now all the more important for the authorities involved in getting the stadium in Vancouver sorted out.

Thank heavens Montreal is going with a proper football name!

[Rathgrith]

Why don't they just play in Le Stade Olympic? That building doesn't get much use anyways.

[Nicko999]

Why don't they just play in Le Stade Olympic? That building doesn't get much use anyways.

When I heard the new, I tought they were going in the Big O(Le stade). I'm dissapointed!!!
It's the biggest staduim in Canada so the The Big O need to be use.
65 255 fans screaming during a soccer game:slob:

[Rico Rommheim]

problem is nicko, that you couldn't fill 60 000 seats for a regular season MLS soccer match, also there's already a football-proper stadium (saputo which will be expanded) and the harsh reality that the big owe is a true testament of an uncomfortable and awkward environment. Were I mayor I'd tear down that white ugly piece of shit.

[kool maudit]

we don't always have to have our own jealous, closed-off little thing. we're north americans. we've shared this continent for centuries. we're part of this thing we've got going over here, and just because we are the smaller partner doesn't mean we're outsiders leeching off another country's culture.

it's natural to do things with the americans. boston is as much my neighbour as toronto is.

[Ayreonaut]

Wrong thread?

[kool maudit]

Wrong thread?


no, i was responding to acajack's weird shame about the mls having both canadian and american teams.

don't let it derail the thread though.

[Ayreonaut]

Oh I didn't notice that.

[trueviking]

Trueviking:

The three main soccer clubs in Canada (Toronto FC, L’Impact de Montréal, Vancouver Whitecaps) are actually trying to address the anomaly of them being in different, U.S.-dominated leagues by organizing some type of Canadian “derby” where all three clubs would perhaps play home-and-home series against each other, to determine a “champion” Canadian club.

you are probably refering to the concacaf champions league...they will play each other to be the canadian representative in a zone competition....it will be interesting, i guess, but really will have no effect on the development of soccer in canada....doesnt replace a canadian league.

if you look at the attendance figures of the leagues in europe, you will find that many average no more than 5-6000 per game...we could easily achieve that level of support....in fact the CFL has a higher average attendance than every soccer league in the world except germany and england....the best situation would be a canadian league that develops canadian talent and then three teams in the highest level available (MLS)....

the worst part is that only one year in the league and TFC management is lobbying hard to reduce the canadian quotas....the league ended up allowing two spots to go to foreign players as long as they were american.....they sign low level foreign players when canadian ones at higher levels could easily be attracted.....they even let a good canadian player go in the san jose expansion draft....their canadian coach was more than happy to snap him up.

MLS has made the US one of the top national teams in the world....because of the quotas....a shame we cant follow suit....instead TFC whine and complain and then sign lousy players from new zealand.


edit: sorry...i didnt read samne's article posted.

[Acajack]

we don't always have to have our own jealous, closed-off little thing. we're north americans. we've shared this continent for centuries. we're part of this thing we've got going over here, and just because we are the smaller partner doesn't mean we're outsiders leeching off another country's culture.

it's natural to do things with the americans. boston is as much my neighbour as toronto is.

It's not about having a "jealous, closed-off little thing". Don't you think that other different peoples around the world have shared the other continents for centuries, or even millennia, as well?

I don't have anything against the Americans. They are the way they are and I actually like going there as often as I can. But that doesn't prevent me from finding it odd that Canadians can't seem to do anything (pro sports, TV, movies, etc.) without them.

And "leeching off another country's culture" isn't really what this is all about, since it implies that the Americanization of Canada is actually a negative for the U.S. In fact, it's more of a positive to them and a negative for Canada. The Canadian market is gravy to the U.S. They don't even have to lift a finger to maintain it or try and win it over. It's just there, ripe for the picking.

The U.S., although not perfect, is a great country. Great neighbours. But if I wanted to be exactly the same as them, I'd move there.

Kool Maudit's post perfectly illustrates how totally hopeless the situation is.

[Mister F]

we don't always have to have our own jealous, closed-off little thing. we're British. we've shared this island for centuries. we're part of this thing we've got going over here, and just because we are the smaller partner doesn't mean we're outsiders leeching off another country's culture.

it's natural to do things with the English. Manchester is as much my neighbour as Edinburgh is.
Fixed :D Now try telling that to a Scot and see what their reaction is. And Scotland is actually part of the same country as England and they still have their own league!

[Acajack]

What Mister F said. Bravo.

[kool maudit]

re: nationalism...didn't the twentieth century teach you anything?

we should not be closing ourselves into little bordered fiefdoms. this is the century of the EU, of NAFTA. countries and cultures do not match up exactly.

[kool maudit]

Fixed :D Now try telling that to a Scot and see what their reaction is. And Scotland is actually part of the same country as England and they still have their own league!



we shouldn't import that old-world type of bitterness to north america.

[Riise]

re: nationalism...didn't the twentieth century teach you anything?

we should not be closing ourselves into little bordered fiefdoms. this is the century of the EU, of NAFTA. countries and cultures do not match up exactly.

Haven't all the centuries before the 20th taught you anything? I think one of the reason why the E.U. is so strong and works so well is the fact that the member countries have been autonomous for quite some time and have reached the point where they can form regional and continental partnerships and don't feel that their individuality is threatened. While these countries have protected their autonomy for centuries, Canada is a very young nation and is still developing its identity and needs space in order to do so. What the E.U. nations are doing is regionalism - the formation of partnerships between individual nations, Canada's constant piggy-backing off of the States is supernationalism - the formation of a single nation.

[Acajack]

we shouldn't import that old-world type of bitterness to north america.

In case you hadn't noticed, it's already here!

I tend to agree with rise. The best solution is to have each established culture have its own turf and THEN decide what it wants to share with its neighbours (history shows that when peoples are truly secure about their place in the world they tend to want to share a lot), rather than have some overarching power that usually owes its dominance to some stupid war I don't know how long ago, and of course represents the interests of one particular ethnic group (even though it fervently denies it does), imposing upon supposedly "lesser" peoples what's good for them like some kind of Big Brother.

[kool maudit]

i don't know. we used to go down to boston for rock shows, up to ottawa for social studies field trips. my father immigrated from england, then worked in saskatoon and toronto before moving to washington, d.c...then we moved to halifax, where he did much of his consulting work for a company based in rhode island.

my good friend moved to england, and then to toronto, where he briefly roomed with another good friend who then moved down to dc to work for the NIH. my cousin from rimouski lives in brooklyn, and his ex-roommate has moved to vancouver.

my parents raised me in toronto and halifax, and now live much of their lives in la quinta, outside los angeles.

i briefly considered doing a masters in ancient near eastern studies in chicago before accepting my first real journalism job in montreal.

this is my experience...so you can see why it might seem silly to suggest we can't even share a soccer league.

[someone123]

In Canada I think about 20% of the people do 80% of the moving around.

[WhipperSnapper]

Now try telling that to a Scot and see what their reaction is. And Scotland is actually part of the same country as England and they still have their own league!

I thought the UK is a Federation; a British Union of three separate countries. (or what was the point of Mel Gibson getting disembowled)

I really don't get why anyone would trade being a part of a world class league for some nationalistic bush league made up of semi-pro has-beens

[Riise]

I really don't get why anyone would trade being a part of a world class league for some nationalistic bush league made up of semi-pro has-beens

Not to start a flame-war or be anti-Toronto, but maybe if you left Toronto you would get it. It's finding more value in the collective, being a part of something bigger than just your city or sport, than in the individual, having the best in your city.

[Mister F]

I thought the UK is a Federation; a British Union of three separate countries. (or what was the point of Mel Gibson getting disembowled)

I really don't get why anyone would trade being a part of a world class league for some nationalistic bush league made up of semi-pro has-beens
Well the point is that Scotland and England have closer ties than Canada and the US.

Do you really think there's not enough soccer talent in this country to have our own league? Maybe the fact that we piggyback on another country's league is part of what prevents talent in this country from developing.

What about hockey? With the popularity of the sport and the amount of talent in this country we could easily support our own professional league. The Leafs are the most valuable team in the world, it would be every bit as prestigious as an American league. I wish we as a country would stop coming up with these excuses.

And then there's the CFL. I think it'd be really interesting if the CFL and the NFL set up a sort of "world series" or even just a couple exhibition games between teams in either league. It sure would test your theory about semi-pro has beens.

[kool maudit]

there is no reason except an excruciatingly silly and vague patriotism for our toronto fc players to stop playing against their mls colleagues.

be wary of closing borders, breaking ties, ending partnerships. that road leads away from the world, and into self-flattering mythologies.

[Mister F]

That road leads away from the world or it leads away from the US? How can structuring a league the same way as every other league in the world be leading away from the world? You're not making sense.

Most people would disagree with you that patriotism is excruciatingly silly.

[kool maudit]

it makes sense to engage with the country that is right next door and has 90% of the continent's population. there is no practical reason to withdraw from the MSL. a canadian league would almost certainly feature a lower level of play.

the only reason to do this thing would be to satisfy flag-waving nationalism.

[Mister F]

England has 90% of the population of the British Isles, yet Scotland and Ireland have their own leagues. I doubt the Scottish and Irish dismiss "flag-waving nationalism" so readily. Maybe we should join the English league, it has a higher level of play than the American league after all.

Professional soccer will never thrive in this country as long as we piggyback off another country's league. It's pretty bad when a country has one or two professional teams in another country's league, and every other city that could easily support the sport has nothing. Canada is unique in using that model and it hurts us more than it helps us.

[matt602]

I got excited when I mis-read the title as "MLB"

:(

[kool maudit]

i am just not interested in forming leagues that must inevitably be scaled down to accomodate the likes of regina. i'd rather hope for an mls spot, and play against teams in toronto and washington and los angeles that have serious resources...enough that mls might one day become a very large-scale football organization, with landmark stadiums, international stars etc.

i'm sorry, i guess we are just coming from two different mentalities. patriotism, more often then not, is simply weird. the border is too big in your head.

[Acajack]

England has 90% of the population of the British Isles, yet Scotland and Ireland have their own leagues. I doubt the Scottish and Irish dismiss "flag-waving nationalism" so readily. Maybe we should join the English league, it has a higher level of play than the American league after all.

Professional soccer will never thrive in this country as long as we piggyback off another country's league. It's pretty bad when a country has one or two professional teams in another country's league, and every other city that could easily support the sport has nothing. Canada is unique in using that model and it hurts us more than it helps us.

Scotland has taken part in 8 World Cups over the years, compared to 12 by England, the country where the sport originated and with 10 times more population. Not bad for a country with a nationalistic bush league for semi-pro has beens... (or whatever kool maudit called it).

[kool maudit]

i didn't bring that up originally, it was somebody else. i also think the scotland comparison is getting pushed too hard.

[Acajack]

Sorry about that kool maudit. It was actually good lookin' who came up with the phrasing.

We may have used the Scottish example to death here but what Mister F said is still true. Canada's situation is unique and the rest of the world generally functions with "national" sports leagues within countries, regardless of the size, power or prestige the neighbours across the border might have.

And besides, piggy-backing onto the Americans doesn’t make Canadians any more worldly or “open-minded”. I’ve on occasion heard Canadians boast about how open to other cultures and non-jingoistic they are, and then cite how 99% of the movies screened in their cinemas are “foreign”. Wow! Sounds like those Canucks are just lining up in droves to see the latest Pedro Almodovar or Giuseppe Tornatore repertory masterpiece! But if you look closer you’ll see that 98.9% of the 99% is just stuff imported from Hollywood, much of it schlock. Not much to boast about from a cultural perspective.

It would be like boasting how worldly and open you are to “international cuisine” just because you eat at McDonald’s, which originated, it’s true, in a country other than yours!

I’ll repeat it again: I do not have anything against the Americans. But from a Canadian perspective, there’s very little extra to be gained on the worldliness or horizon-broadening scale by getting into bed with them culturally (and pro sports are part of culture) every chance you get.

BTW, as I’ve stated before on other threads, I’m not really a Canadian nationalist myself. I am more of the French Canadian / Québécois nationalist persuasion actually. But that doesn’t prevent me from pointing out counter-productive stuff to people who profess to care about their country’s identity.

[Mister F]

i didn't bring that up originally, it was somebody else. i also think the scotland comparison is getting pushed too hard.
Why? I've brought it up a lot because it's a similar situation to Canada. It's population is lower than the GTA's, it's right beside a much bigger country, but it has its own healthy league. It has nothing to do with silly flag-waving nationalism. Ask yourself this: if a Glasgow team joined the English league and the Scottish league disappeared, would that make soccer in Scotland more or less healthy? That's basically the model you're defending.

Or look at it this way: if the CFL collapsed and Toronto got an NFL team, would that make football in Canada more or less healthy?

[kool maudit]

why should toronto care about "football in canada?"

[Acajack]

why should toronto care about "football in canada?"

Good point. And why should the rest of Canada care if Toronto's economy tanks and follows the path already well-worn by its Rust Belt neighbours just over the border?

[Riise]

why should toronto care about "football in canada?"

Then TFC can get the fuck out of Canada's national stadium! You accuse us of being flag waving patriot yet you sound like a cash waving individualist!


Ask yourself this: if a Glasgow team joined the English league and the Scottish league disappeared, would that make soccer in Scotland more or less healthy? That's basically the model you're defending.

I think you've brought up a great point in how having a domestic league can be about more than flag waving patriotism or jingoism. It can help create national equality in our cities; by selflessly playing in "2nd Tier" leagues large centres can allow other cities to play in a decent tier league. For example, take a look at how while a few of our cities have hockey teams in the best - and primarily American - hockey league in the world, some of Canada's largest cities don't even have a senior league hockey club. Imagine how the placement of NFL teams in cities like Toronto and Vancouver and the subsequent the slow death of the CFL would rob numerous cities of professional grid-iron.

[kool maudit]

Then TFC can get the fuck out of Canada's national stadium! You accuse us of being flag waving patriot yet you sound like a cash waving individualist!


it just seems like the largest canadian cities would have to sort of handicap themselves to accomodate a system of the type you guys are describing. torontonians should try to get the best football they can.

the rest is emotional symbols and exclamation points.

[kool maudit]

Good point. And why should the rest of Canada care if Toronto's economy tanks and follows the path already well-worn by its Rust Belt neighbours just over the border?



say that happened, and say calgary was still immensely successful...i wouldn't necessarily support taxing them to directly bail out the torontonians. i don't think many calgarians would support that either...sort of like the NEP.

[Riise]

it just seems like the largest canadian cities would have to sort of handicap themselves to accomodate a system of the type you guys are describing. torontonians should try to get the best football they can.

the rest is emotional symbols and exclamation points.

It's more than just having the best of everything. Is Paris any less of a "World Class" city because it doesn't have a top tier European league football club?

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=kool maudit;3470864]it just seems like the largest canadian cities would have to sort of handicap themselves to accomodate a system of the type you guys are describing. torontonians should try to get the best football they can.
QUOTE]

It's not about "handicapping" themselves, it's about being part of a country! A country or a nation is about a willingness to live together and do things together. Maybe not exclusively, all of the time, but at least some of the time!

[kool maudit]

to be honest, i'm not a huge football fan - so i don't know the exact situation in paris (though i'm sure the circumstance you mention doesn't actually lessen that city one bit.)

it seems like national leagues here, though - given our history and circumstance - seem to require a bit of a sacrifice on the part of the largest markets. is it worth it? i suppose i see it this way: canada's largest cities are quite major entities, which compete directly with the metropoli of much larger countries in the world economy. not being a football fan, my general inclination is to say they need a bigger sparring ring than canada can generally provide in order to stay fit enough to go up against the bostons and the madrids and the hamburgs of the world. this is why i usually support international entanglements at the expense of canada-specific culture aids.

[Acajack]

It’s not just about football or even sports. And contrary to what people would have us believe, Canada is no more dominated by its largest cities than most countries in the world. Canadians are particularly adept at finding excuses for the country’s Americanization, and often describe the country’s situation as being “unique”, when in most instances it isn’t.

If we take just the example of large cities, well the GTA has around 6 million people in a country of just over 30 million people. So roughly 1 in 5 Canadians lives in the GTA. This is about the same proportion that Paris represents in France and London in the UK. Plus in Canada you have Montreal, Vancouver and other largish cities that for both population and geographic reasons rival Toronto like no others rival Paris and London in their countries.

Every country pretty much has a metropolis (or metropoli)-hinterland duality to it, so Canada is by no means unique in this respect and it’s incorrect to say its larger cities have to make “sacrifices” because of the boonies. In fact, much of the wealth of the larger Canadian cities comes from the fact that they’re distribution points for resources taken out of the hinterlands.

[kool maudit]

i still am not seeing the supposedly innate appeal of national versus international arrengements.

[someone123]

I think a false dilemma has been set up in this thread. It's possible to construct a league that has both major and minor teams that all play other teams with a similar level of performance. From an economic point of view this makes sense for leagues since they can also take advantage of smaller markets which, in aggregate, are just as large as the big cities.

I suspect that the reason why smaller cities in Canada don't have many sports teams is a function of poor management and a lack of public money relative to other places. The second factor may or may not be considered negative.

Of course, it's possible that I'm totally wrong since I never watch sports and couldn't care less about the games themselves (actually it's a little worse since I find most professional sports pretty distasteful).

[Riise]

it seems like national leagues here, though - given our history and circumstance - seem to require a bit of a sacrifice on the part of the largest markets. is it worth it?

While undoubtedly giving up participation in a "World Class" sporting league is a sacrifice, I don't believe it is a huge sacrifice nor is it one that comes with particularly large losses, especially in respect to what is gained.

[M]y general inclination is to say they need a bigger sparring ring than canada can generally provide in order to stay fit enough to go up against the bostons and the madrids and the hamburgs of the world.

When playing in larger "World Class" leagues I believe the clubs are the ones benefiting from playing on a larger scales, at least more so than cities. What does a city get from having its clubs playing in the best leagues? Obviously, as clubs in Paris and even Hamburg, which you provided as an example of a major competitor, play in second tier European leagues it does not help the city in meeting a requirement needed for becoming a "World Class" city. A benefit it does provide, though, is that it makes a city more attractable to potential residents. Without a doubt, being able to boast that your local sporting club plays in one of the best sporting league in the world is an advantage. However, having a decent and well supported club in a decent domestic league is also something that is attractive, albeit a certain degree less so than the previous example.

Furthermore, having one or more local clubs in a decent domestic league can be an advantage when trying to retain residents. I believe that residents can hesitate to leave a place that is home to a club they passionately support, and it is much easier to become passionate about clubs playing in domestic leagues than clubs playing in international leagues. Why? Using potential future local footy examples: 1) A game between Calgary Athletic and Halifax United is going to be more intense than a game between Calgary Athletic and Chivas USA; and 2) The atmosphere is going to be more heated at a road match where Calgary is playing in Red Deer than Calgary playing in Colorado as more fans can travel to the former.

To use a current real life example. While the rivalry between the Flames and Oilers has died down a bit recently since our fortunes have been different, it is still there. However, we developed a rivalry with the Preds after we had a few heated games a couple seasons back but this year it was almost non-existent. Why does our rivalry with the Oil live on yet the one with the Preds die? We share more with Edmonton than simply a common membership in a "World Class" league.

this is why i usually support international entanglements at the expense of canada-specific culture aids.

I'm the opposite because I hate the Oil more than the Panthers and like fellow Canadian cities having the same chances as I, especially when that can help make us better as a whole. I think Canada's national team would do better if football was blossoming in all cities and not just those that can field an MLS franchise. Also, concentrating on developing quality players across the nation rather than putting a soccer franchise in our largest city leads to results other than our U-20's not scoring a single goal at an event we host.

[trueviking]

this is the worst soccer discussion ever....

i agree with KM when he says that the largest cities should try to be part of the best soccer possible on this continent, but i disagree that there is no value in a national league.

the one thing that you are dismissing is that soccer is not like other sports...it is a game that inherintly divides players into nationality more than any other....every country wraps their flag around their soccer team....no other sport has its natioanl teams playing each other continuously during league seasons....no other sport places so much emphasis on international play....this fact changes the discussion.

the MLS was created specifically to make the US a better soccer country internationally...thats why it has nationality quotas and a central ownership structure...it isnt a typical sports league where free market rules

....this has worked for them as they have not missed a world cup since MLS has been around....

three MLS teams will not do the same for canada....a developmental league is critical for the advancement of the game in our country...it is no coincidence that canda's only world cup appearance came during the existence of a national candian league.

i think the best solution is 3 MLS teams with strong canadian quotas along with a developmental league in the smaller centres and possibly even in the larger ones as a second team or as the reserve team of the MLS squad....as i have said...there are many successful leagues in europe that draw no more than 2 or 3 thousand fans...that is totally possible here.

a national league isnt just symbolism...its the best way to develop canadian soccer talent on a practical level.

[Acajack]

I must admit that I’m actually very consciously wasting my time on this issue. My perception has for a very long time been that Canadian pro sports is a hopeless case, and that most people in Canada really do think like Kool Maudit, though very few of them are as eloquent as him (her?) in explaining why.

I still enjoy challenging their arguments for fun, because I believe them to be erroneous, but I don’t have any more illusions about changing Canada’s status as a (sports/cultural) colony of the U.S.

[Acajack]

this is why i usually support international entanglements at the expense of canada-specific culture aids.

The Toronto Blue Jays playing the Kansas City Royals is not an "international entanglement", nor are the Toronto Raptors playing the Utah Jazz, at least not in the same sense as Manchester United playing Real Madrid would be. Or like a competition of the top European hockey clubs like the Spengler Cup.

The Blue Jays and Raptors are simply add-ons to existing American competitions that happen to be across the border in Canada. They function exactly as they would if they were in the States.

Sorry to disappoint you, but even the NHL is really an American sports league. All of the Canadian teams pay their salaries in U.S. dollars, and the scheduling of games bows to what the U.S. networks want, in spite of the fact that the CBC is the league's number one broadcaster.

[Mister F]

The Toronto Blue Jays playing the Kansas City Royals is not an "international entanglement", nor are the Toronto Raptors playing the Utah Jazz, at least not in the same sense as Manchester United playing Real Madrid would be. Or like a competition of the top European hockey clubs like the Spengler Cup.

The Blue Jays and Raptors are simply add-ons to existing American competitions that happen to be across the border in Canada. They function exactly as they would if they were in the States.

Sorry to disappoint you, but even the NHL is really an American sports league. All of the Canadian teams pay their salaries in U.S. dollars, and the scheduling of games bows to what the U.S. networks want, in spite of the fact that the CBC is the league's number one broadcaster.
Good point. If Canada and the US had their own pro hockey leagues it wouldn't hurt hockey in Canada at all. It might actually help hockey gain legitimacy in the US if they had an exclusively American league, since Americans tend to see it at a foreign game. We could still have our international entanglement in the form of a Spengler Cup or World Series style competition between the two countries for the Stanley Cup. It would benefit Canada too, since we'd end up with far more cities with professional hockey, and probably multiple tiers with the big NHL markets in the top tier. With teams like Toronto and Montreal among the richest in the world, we wouldn't have to worry about having second rate competition.

this is the worst soccer discussion ever....

i agree with KM when he says that the largest cities should try to be part of the best soccer possible on this continent, but i disagree that there is no value in a national league.

the one thing that you are dismissing is that soccer is not like other sports...it is a game that inherintly divides players into nationality more than any other....every country wraps their flag around their soccer team....no other sport has its natioanl teams playing each other continuously during league seasons....no other sport places so much emphasis on international play....this fact changes the discussion.

the MLS was created specifically to make the US a better soccer country internationally...thats why it has nationality quotas and a central ownership structure...it isnt a typical sports league where free market rules

....this has worked for them as they have not missed a world cup since MLS has been around....

three MLS teams will not do the same for canada....a developmental league is critical for the advancement of the game in our country...it is no coincidence that canda's only world cup appearance came during the existence of a national candian league.

i think the best solution is 3 MLS teams with strong canadian quotas along with a developmental league in the smaller centres and possibly even in the larger ones as a second team or as the reserve team of the MLS squad....as i have said...there are many successful leagues in europe that draw no more than 2 or 3 thousand fans...that is totally possible here.

a national league isnt just symbolism...its the best way to develop canadian soccer talent on a practical level.
This is kind of what I was getting at. With Toronto FC and one or maybe even two other Canadian teams in the MLS, kids in Edmonton or Ottawa or Quebec City have nothing to aspire to. Talent in much of the country doesn't get developed without a national league. Your idea of a national league that still allows a couple Canadian teams in the MLS is one that could work.

[Gerrard]

"And why should the rest of Canada care if Toronto's economy tanks and follows the path already well-worn by its Rust Belt neighbours just over the border?"

Actually the rest of Canada is following this prospect with a certain amount of glee. They care, but for the wrong reasons.

[Acajack]

Good point. If Canada and the US had their own pro hockey leagues it wouldn't hurt hockey in Canada at all. It might actually help hockey gain legitimacy in the US if they had an exclusively American league, since Americans tend to see it at a foreign game.

Ask most American NHL owners what they think of the Canadian teams in the NHL and you'll see their faces get all red with frustration. If they're honest, they'll say that there are three times too many, and that the only ones they'd keep are Montreal and perhaps Toronto. All of the other Canadian clubs are very poor draws in the U.S., and Winnipeg and Quebec were very poor draws in the U.S. cities as well when they were there.

[kool maudit]

two things are beginning to appear:

the first is that football, or soccer, contains an element that i may have undervalued, not being a fan. apparently it is a sport whose history is strongly intertwined with the 19th/20th-century concept of the nation-state. point taken.

the second is that there are some canadians who just seethe, just coil at the recognition of the fact that the united states, being a much larger country, is much more prominent in affairs relating to north american culture than canada is. this i don't get. i actually think that, despite our low population, we've probably punched above our weight in terms of writers, musicians, actors etc. etc etc...cultural figures. you want to talk about colonies and invasions, but to me that just seems like a weird attempt to bring old world-style national tribalism into this more free-flowing new world experiment.

mordecai richler was one of canada's greatest writers, but was he so different from saul bellow or philip roth? there is certainly a canadian spin - a certain humble and biting wit that contrasts - but really, these three guys are all part of a transnational era and school - the literate sons of jewish immigrants in large north american cities.

if you want to call that colonisation, or if you secretly wish that mordecai was somehow more different, more unique, more identifiably canadian, all i can say is what a bitterness, what a disrespect towards our history as it actually exists.

[kool maudit]

With Toronto FC and one or maybe even two other Canadian teams in the MLS, kids in Edmonton or Ottawa or Quebec City have nothing to aspire to.




they could go play for toronto fc, or los angeles even.

[Acajack]

they could go play for toronto fc, or los angeles even.

How many kids from Edmonton, Quebec City or even Toronto have played for the Blue Jays or the Raptors over the years? How many have played for other MLB or NBA clubs based in the U.S.? Sure you can cite Steve Nash in the NBA and he is unquestionably fantastic. But how many other young Canadians are playing pro basketball or baseball out there?

Yet, more than 100 young Aussies are currently playing pro basketball in their own country. Because they have their own league.

[kool maudit]

perhaps we could set up some sort of canada-based minor league (is there one already?)

i'm also not sure that the purpose of professional sports is wholly to encourage amateur sport participation. it might just be another metropolitan spectacle.

[Acajack]

KM: the second is that there are some canadians who just seethe, just coil at the recognition of the fact that the united states,

I don't recall anyone seething or coiling here (not yet). For my part, I've already said that personally I don't really care either way. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a bad way to go about nation-building, no matter the century (19th, 20th or 21st) you're doing it in.

Of course, annexationism is a legitimate political option, and if some people want to go that route, more power to them.


KM: being a much larger country, is much more prominent in affairs relating to north american culture than canada is. this i don't get. i actually think that, despite our low population, we've probably punched above our weight in terms of writers, musicians, actors etc. etc etc...cultural figures.

The problem is that if you travel around the world, you will find that many of the Canadians you are referring to are widely thought of as Americans: Jim Carrey, Mike Myers, etc. I've always considered it to be dumbass culture myself, but if Wayne's World was inspired by Myers' childhood in Scarborough, why was it set in Chicago? If My Big Fat Greek Wedding was based on Nia Vardalos' experiences in Winnipeg, why wasn't it set in the 'Peg?

Priscilla Queen of the Desert wasn't set in the desert of the American southwest was it? Trainspotting didn't take place in Cleveland, did it? The Full Monty didn't take place in Wheeling, West Virginia, if I recall?

KM: you want to talk about colonies and invasions, but to me that just seems like a weird attempt to bring old world-style national tribalism into this more free-flowing new world experiment.

Tribalism? Can't speak for others but I hardly see myself as a tribal person. I am having a philosophical discussion in what is actually my second language, and I also speak a third language pretty well and can get by in a fourth. I have used sports and cultural examples from all over the world that I am pretty sure many interlocutors here have never even heard of.

Recognizing and cherishing the differences between the world's many cultures does not make one "tribal", and covering one self in the "citizen of the world" cloak while advocating laissez-faire acculturation and submission to the steamroller does not make one automatically "worldly" either.

OK, maybe I'm seething now...

[kool maudit]

i am not covering myself in any cloak nor waiting for any steamroller.

politically and socially, canada can be said to be a separate culture from the united states.

in terms of popular culture - and here i do not mean simple trash-culture, but musicians like leonard cohen and hank williams, writers like mordecai richler and philip roth...and so on down the line through architecture (safdie?), cuisine etc. etc. etc. - we are one, with regional differences being far more important than the national border.

i don't see, say, pavement as a foreign band.

ernest hemingway got a lot of his newspaperly style while working for the toronto star.

as a culture of works, if not practices, north america should be looked at as one.

as an aside, i feel closer - in many senses - to my montreal home in brooklyn or boston than i do in vancouver.

[trueviking]

i would love to meet KM...i find him the most interesting person on this forum....

he also has the best monicker

[Acajack]

I cannot dispute the fact that many Canadians see the situation as such, but it’s really a two-way mirror, in the sense that Americans know little if anything of Canada’s contribution to this so-called shared cultural space.

Anything or anyone that comes out of Canada that becomes popular in the U.S. is American to them (actually, Canadians usually even package it for them by expunging any obvious or even slight references to Canada). And as for the stuff that’s only popular in Canada, they just completely ignore it.

Once again, this is completely different from other places in the world like Spanish-speaking Latin America where many countries share a common language and culture but people nonetheless know that Gabriel Garcia Marquez is Colombian, Astor Piazzola is from Argentina and Jose Luis Guerra is from the Dominican Republic…

How can you be married to someone if the other partner is barely aware that you exist?

[kool maudit]

How can you be married to someone if the other partner is barely aware that you exist?


marriage implies that the circumstance i have outlines is the product of some great affection for the united states. it isn't, at least not necessarily. it's just how it happened, just where the roads of both countries led and where our ancestors picked up their idioms and influences.

if it's the rule among americans to be unaware of canada's contributions to the north american culture, that's their problem. they should learn their history.

i'm certainly not going to get bitter about it, as i don't need the backpats.

[Acajack]

Once again, it's not about bitterness (at least not in my case). Just a dumb way of doing things in my view. Then Canadians go around getting all frustrated when people mistake them for Americans when they're travelling abroad (unless they've got the huge maple leaf flag on the backpack, eh?).

Ah well...

[kool maudit]

just as an aside, i never wear the flag, as i think draping yourself in your national symbols is vulgar. i would think the same were i to see an american with the stars and stripes, or a french person with the tricolour on his or her backpack.

if people are going to think i am an american - and proceed to act a jackass because of that - it is good, because i like to know if i am dealing with the sort of low character who forms his judgments on people based on the words on their passport.

oddly, i am always taken for american in the UK, but rarely so in continental europe.

[Acajack]

if people are going to think i am an american - and proceed to act a jackass because of that - it is good, because i like to know if i am dealing with the sort of low character who forms his judgments on people based on the words on their passport.

.

My comment wasn’t about people abroad instantly labelling Canadians as jackasses because they think they’re Americans. A lot of people try to guess what country people are from just to be nice and make conversation. That doesn’t make them “low characters”.

[kool maudit]

A lot of people try to guess what country people are from just to be nice and make conversation. That doesn’t make them “low characters”.

of course it doesn't. sorry for reading too much into your comment. i was projecting a bit of my own experience, i guess.

[Acajack]

No probs. I know this “jackass expectation” does happen, but the truth is most people are probably doing it just to be nice. But for many Canadians, it bugs them to no end to be mistaken for Yanks, regardless of whether people are being cool about it or not.

[kool maudit]

we should have thought of that in 1867, and proceeded to teach our children some wildly novel accent.

as it is, we have (a muted version of, in many cases) that twang.

my mom is even mad that i call z "zee:" too much sesame street pre-kindergarten.

[Acajack]

I must admit to enhancing my very slight French accent (when speaking in English) on occasion…

[samne]

How many kids from Edmonton, Quebec City or even Toronto have played for the Blue Jays or the Raptors over the years? How many have played for other MLB or NBA clubs based in the U.S.? Sure you can cite Steve Nash in the NBA and he is unquestionably fantastic. But how many other young Canadians are playing pro basketball or baseball out there?

Yet, more than 100 young Aussies are currently playing pro basketball in their own country. Because they have their own league.


Toronto FC is different. They have a minimum number of Canadian players required. Also, they have a developmental/junior program that for younger local kids. This was an effort to improve the National program.

resume, non-soccer debate please.

[CCF]

i am just not interested in forming leagues that must inevitably be scaled down to accomodate the likes of regina. .

Excuse me?

That same Regina which outdraws the Alouettes in attendence every game?

20,000 a game in Montreal....I hate seeing the CFL being scaled down for Montreal.

[kool maudit]

ha - awesome. old comment draws regina patriot.

[CCF]

Yet what I say is true.

Which city is "scaling down" the CFL.

[Mister F]

KM - just out of curiousity, are you a separatist?

[Riise]

Toronto FC is different. They have a minimum number of Canadian players required. Also, they have a developmental/junior program that for younger local kids. This was an effort to improve the National program.

resume, non-soccer debate please.

I'm sorry, we need more than just one development progam. The CSA should be focused on helping lay the ground work to ensure that, not placing professional clubs that might focus minimal attention on the creation of an academy.



a national league isnt just symbolism...its the best way to develop canadian soccer talent on a practical level.

I'd love to debate this but I think this thread has digressed enough and I don't have the time to gather all the facts to back up my argument. Another day though, hopefully soon!