[HAMRetrofit]

From http://www.separationalberta.com/counter.asp


"How many generations of Albertans are Albertans willing to sacrifice? Only you can answer that question.

One billion dollars would install and operate approximately 200 MRIs for a year. In 2003, Alberta sent Ottawa the equivalent of 2,200 new, operational MRIs. And we have problems accessing health care in a timely fashion.

One billion dollars would fund 10,000 new police officers for a year. Officers on the street are the best way to both solve and prevent crimes. In 2003, Alberta sent Ottawa the equivalent of 10,000 new police officers for 11 years. And we have problems controlling crime.

One billion dollars would fund more than 12,820 new teachers for a year. More teachers would mean fewer students per class, better learning opportunities, and a stronger Alberta. In 2003, Alberta sent Ottawa the equivalent of 12,820 new teachers for 11 years, almost an entire generation of students. And we have problems with too many children in too few classrooms with too few basics, like books.

How many generations of Albertans is Ottawa willing to sacrifice? Whatever it takes to keep the Ottawa machinery in motion."

[Blue 24]

:runaway: Can you say Locked?

[Acajack]

Separatist movements based on economic factors (a cynic would refer to this as “greed”) rarely - if ever - succeed. (Northern Italy’s Liga Nord is the first example that comes to mind.)

For separation to occur, cultural and even ethnic differences are where it’s at. Nothing else even comes close to doing the trick.

Sorry Alberta.

[401_King]

oh those albertans

[Rico Rommheim]

I'll never happen. Alberta is the only part of this country I've ever visited where there are so many Canadian flag on display, its also the province where I've seen the largest canadian flags flown.

Call 1800-267-2001 alarm force!

[HAMRetrofit]

It seems that this party is concerned primarily with the economic well being of the province. If Alberta did become a nation onto itself I could see economic exploitation become quite extreme, perhaps similar to what we see in some OPEC nations. It would actually be a petronation, which is somewhat concerning. Some of the conditions in Fort McMurray could be a precursor to what we might witness in Alberta. These are just my speculations regarding the issue.

[Xelebes]

This isn't gonna fly.

[1ajs]

never has the people behind it still have sour grapes of the fiasco in the 70's

[LordMandeep]

do not see this happening.

For every Separatist there are many proud Canadians in Alberta.

I would like to see a Ontario Separation party. Just to spite the Tories in Ottawa...

Would this actually help or hurt Alberta.

Would this Alberta like the UAE or make it like Quebec after 1976???

[RWin]

Call 1800-267-2001 alarm force!

Thanks. Now I have that stupid tune stuck in my head.

[vid]

Separatist movements based on economic factors (a cynic would refer to this as “greed”) rarely - if ever - succeed. (Northern Italy’s Liga Nord is the first example that comes to mind.)

True. Alberta has about as much chance of separating from Canada as Northern Ontario does from the rest of the province: None.

An Ontario Separation Party would just hurt our reputation with the rest of the country, and being the province in which the capital is located it would be a mess. It would probably get less support than the Christian Whackjob Party!

[Rusty van Reddick]

HAM, why did you dig this up? They're moronic nutbars and they have ZERO influence here.

I'm going to find some white supremacists' site in Hamilton and post a thread about it. Just to see how people feel about it, just idle curiosity.

[vid]

HAM, why did you dig this up? They're moronic nutbars and they have ZERO influence here.

I'm going to find some white supremacists' site in Hamilton and post a thread about it. Just to see how people feel about it, just idle curiosity.

You call him out for doing something stupid, then threaten to do that stupid thing in retaliation?

Who do you think you are? Me? :rolleyes:

[KrisYYC]

The Alberta seperation party has been lingering around for about 25 years or so. They never get any real support.

That being said, IF any seperation were to happen at all in Canada, the only one that COULD work in my opinion would be if BC, AB, SK and MB seperated as one.

Not gonna happen.

[240glt]

Never happen.

Separatist support lingers in rural pockets of the province around Olds & Brooks. Nobody else takes them seriously.

[shreddog]

Sigh. I see it's still March.

[big W]

The concept or separation has been around for ages (basically since the 30's). Alberta has throughout its history had an independant streak. I would say the separtist movement in this province can never organize properly due to a couple issues. Alberta drawing in so many people from the rest of Canada, and since they do have a vote, they will not go for it. There is also the issue with things being good so you do not want to upset the applecart so to speak. There is always talk about hatred of the feds and having them back off but thats it. It will not go futher unless the feds do a huge incursion into the province like a new NEP. If that happens and that causes the economy to go south, non-native Albertans leaving (no jobs therefore go home and those who do stay might sway things into outright separation. The sediment so called alienation and separation is actually there in a large percentage of Albertans (some polls in the past have had as high as 45%) but saying it and actually taking it to the next step are 2 differnt things. In other words, the feds can back off, lower our taxes and get out of our way so that we can take care of ourselves as we know whats best for us, but that it. That actual party however is a bunch of nutjobs that have no chance at doing anything.

If Canadians want to worry about a potential separatist movement from Alberta, then whats needed is to have a Federal Government trying to bring in something that would been seen as specifically targeting Alberta like the NEP. While we have a premier with no charisma like we have now and the separatists having a leader who is like Quebec did with Rene Leveque and you might be onto something.

[KrisYYC]

The concept or separation has been around for ages (basically since the 30's). Alberta has throughout its history had an independant streak. I would say the separtist movement in this province can never organize properly due to a couple issues. Alberta drawing in so many people from the rest of Canada, and since they do have a vote, they will not go for it. There is also the issue with things being good so you do not want to upset the applecart so to speak. There is always talk about hatred of the feds and having them back off but thats it. It will not go futher unless the feds do a huge incursion into the province like a new NEP. If that happens and the economy starts to go south, non-native Albertans leaving and those who do stay might sway things into outright separation. The sediment so called alienation and separation is actually there in a large percentage of Albertans (some polls in the past have had as high as 45%) but saying it and actually taking it to the next step are 2 differnt things. In other words, the feds can back off, lower our taxes and let us take care of ourselves as we know whats best for us, but that it. The actual party however is a bunch of nutjobs that have no chance at doing anything.

Yeah it would take something pretty drastic from the feds for Albertans to really act on any seperatist sentiment they might have. Another NEP could do it. And to be honest if there was another NEP I'd probably support some sort of break off from confederation.

But barring that, I'd like to see more autonomy for ALL provinces. Wipe out federal income tax and let the provinces themselves be in charge of income tax.

[Aylmer]

Posties before closure!

:)

[big W]

As a native born Albertan who loves this country, I am for following the constitution and the feds retreating into provincial areas of jurisdition. Canada is only as good as it ability to follow its own law of the land. If the feds no longer respect the constitution and say try a new NEP, then I would also push for outright separation.

As I said, there is more than a fringe that would go for separation depending on the circumstances. But it would have to be something really stupid for the feds to impliment. A couple years ago I recall a prof in Montreal talking about the feds taking the O & G resources from Alberta for the benefit of Canada and saying who cares what Albertans think as its better for Canada. This if some recall caused a number of Tory MLA's including Klein himself to actually bring the separation issue within their party meetings. The start of the now infamous firewall letter that our current PM co-authored and a letter from our our current leader of the official opposition to Klein about discussing and taking this talk out of the scene followed by a Klein retort about a minister of inter-government affairs should only talk to his Alberta counter part and he will only talk and respond to an equal position being the PM.

[Acajack]

All of this is more of a bargaining tactic than anything else.

I think many people don't fully realize how huge a step it is to break away from a country, and a very prosperous and successful one at that.

People in Quebec, whose differences with other Canadians are often to the point of being "foreign" to one another, have had two chances to make the break and couldn't bring themselves do it. So I fail to see how the Alberta "people", a regional variation of the English-Canadian nation in the same way that Idahoans are Americans, that Bavarians are Germans or that Gaspesians are Quebecois, could actually separate from Canada over money some day.

[Beltliner]

Sorry, folks. Jerry Boyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Hour_Has_22_Minutes#Thomey.27s_characters) is more credible than the Alberta Separation Party.

If you can mark an X, you're my kind of people!

[kitchener-lrt]

Give it a rest Alberta (Separation Party). If Alberta didn't have oil, this party wouldn't have started.

[Colin]

Honestly, the fact that you find a random website that has little support within Alberta and ask everyone what their take is on the website, has only one intention which is to stir up trouble. I doubt you are even remotely concerned about Alberta separating from Canada and you only want to further belittle Alberta in order to maintain your image of Toronto as the centre of the universe. Your past remarks about Alberta and specifically Calgary, clearly show you have little knowledge whatsoever about the city and only proves that you are unable to view Calgary objectively without resorting to unfounded claims that are based solely on opinions.

[HAMRetrofit]

^ I am sorry but this is not my intent at all. I only would like to hear opinions to break down potential stereotypes and to discuss the history of the movement. So perhaps instead of turning this into attack on me or Toronto we discuss why this movement even needs to exist.

[wild wild west]

The A.S.P. is just a fringe party that draws minimal support from Albertans frustrated with the status quo in Canada. The fact is, while many Albertans may be frustrated with certain aspects of how Canada is run, the vast majority are nevertheless committed to remaining a part of Canada.

And I'm really surprised this thread has not been locked yet!

[Aylmer]

Another Postie before lockies!

:)

[Bucolic Urbanity]

HAM, why did you dig this up? They're moronic nutbars and they have ZERO influence here.


It seems as though your level of intolerance to those whose opinions don't match your own is quite high. I'm with Vid on this one.

[Wooster]

Interestingly - there is a Province of Toronto party in Ontario!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Toronto

http://www.provinceoftoronto.ca/


Time for city-states! :cool:

... and apparently an Ontario Separation Party.

http://www.katewerk.com/ontario.html :haha:

These movements in Canada are a joke, and should be treated as such

[MolsonExport]

Call 1800-267-2001 alarm force!


:D :D :D :notacrook:

[Rico Rommheim]

Is it me or is there a recent influx of boneheads on ssp these days? Seems like an increasing amount of member with few posts are just coming here lately and stirring shit up?

this ain't ssc people....

[MolsonExport]

Does the leader of the Albseps wear a shower cap?

[theman23]

How many abortions can you get for $1 billion? At least 3, I bet.

[Xelebes]

Does the leader of the Albseps wear a shower cap?

No. Buttless leather chaps? Yes.

[HAMRetrofit]

Interestingly - there is a Province of Toronto party in Ontario!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Toronto

http://www.provinceoftoronto.ca/


Time for city-states! :cool:

... and apparently an Ontario Separation Party.

http://www.katewerk.com/ontario.html :haha:

These movements in Canada are a joke, and should be treated as such

Perhaps I should have started a thread on Canadian city states...or maybe I will.

I don't see why everyone thinks this thread should be closed. Most of the discourse is fairly constructive so far.

[vid]

Toronto is too intertwined to be a city state. It would just hurt them. Greater autonomy however might be beneficial. Increase their taxing abilities so they can provide proper services and of course bring funding for social services back up to the provincial level would be very beneficial not only to Toronto but all cities in Ontario.

[LordMandeep]

a Metro city-state is the only solution...

[vid]

No.. it isn't.

[LordMandeep]

well what I mine, I am not 100% sure a city state is a good idea.

If there ever is one, it would require York, Peel, Halton-Durham region be involved.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Not a separate country... just the 51st state!

[cornholio]

Now why would Alberta want to make America happy...boy they would love if Canada was split up in to smaller easier to handle pieces for them. Canada as a whole gets walked all over, Alberta alone would get trampled. Its in the best interest of all of us to stick together and thinking other wise is short sighted, Alberta needs Canada and Canada needs Alberta. Why do you think the EU is uniting all the countries in Europe, its all about economic power and that is why America is trying very very...very...hard to ruin it.

[Aylmer]

I think that they are trying to save their own economy at the moment...

:)

[big W]

No. Buttless leather chaps? Yes.

And since he is in SOuthern Alberta, a white cowboy hat as well.

[big W]

Give it a rest Alberta (Separation Party). If Alberta didn't have oil, this party wouldn't have started.

Thats true but there has been a separation movement in Alberta since the 20's or 30's.

[vid]

Not a separate country... just the 51st state!

Yes, because the states have it so much easier. I know! Why doesn't Canada bring it's capital gains taxes up to American levels, and start taxing inheritance?! Wouldja like that??

Tax inheritance now!!

Oh, and our income taxes for middle class people tend to be lower than many US states. We'll have to raise that, too.

[Aylmer]

Thats true but there has been a separation movement in Alberta since the 20's or 30's.

There is a Seperation party where every there's money to be made...

:)

[Kevin_foster]

Not a separate country... just the 51st state!

:yuck: I just threw up a little

[Gerrard]

It's a lovely idea for now. But beyond oil and tourism, Alberta isn't exactly teeming with financial or manufacturing growth or initiative and infrastructurally Calgary has only 1 major university.

They have decades to go before their economy and society diversifies enough for a long term successful bid at independence. What happens when the oil is gone or the world's economies are no longer dependent on it?

My bets for successful independence movements are on Ontario and Quebec, despite the tanking economies.

[caltrane74]

The Ontario economy is not tanking. We are in a period of slow growth, and despite our recent troubles, Ontario still produce more jobs than the rest of Canada combined. - If we didn't produce all these jobs, I'm sure Alberta would have found the solution to it's current workforce shortage.

Grief.

[CCF]

The Ontario economy is not tanking. We are in a period of slow growth, and despite our recent troubles, Ontario still produce more jobs than the rest of Canada combined. - If we didn't produce all these jobs, I'm sure Alberta would have found the solution to it's current workforce shortage.

Grief.


Ontario did not produce those jobs.

Ontario has been at an advantage throughout Canada's history because of political favourtism. Ontario did not create the wealth in the province, it was basically handed to them.

[caltrane74]

Political favourtism. Give me a break.

You must mean Quebec.

[MolsonExport]

^Just what I would expect. When faced with an accusation, point the finger someplace else.

[HAMRetrofit]

Ontario did not produce those jobs.

Ontario has been at an advantage throughout Canada's history because of political favourtism. Ontario did not create the wealth in the province, it was basically handed to them.

Please site facts if you are going to make sweeping generalizations like this.

[skyscraper_1]

Please site facts if you are going to make sweeping generalizations like this.I would disagree with the term "handed to", but for most of Canadian history the political economy has been geared toward growing the center(Ontario & Quebec) often at the expense of the periphery.

[lubicon]

It's a lovely idea for now. But beyond oil and tourism, Alberta isn't exactly teeming with financial or manufacturing growth or initiative and infrastructurally Calgary has only 1 major university.
They have decades to go before their economy and society diversifies enough for a long term successful bid at independence. What happens when the oil is gone or the world's economies are no longer dependent on it?

My bets for successful independence movements are on Ontario and Quebec, despite the tanking economies.

OT

What does that have to do with Alberta? Actually, Alberta's premiere university is located 300km north in Edmonton (sorry Furry:D ). There are other things in Alberta outside of Calgary. But your point is taken.

[big W]

It's a lovely idea for now. But beyond oil and tourism, Alberta isn't exactly teeming with financial or manufacturing growth or initiative and infrastructurally Calgary has only 1 major university.

They have decades to go before their economy and society diversifies enough for a long term successful bid at independence. What happens when the oil is gone or the world's economies are no longer dependent on it?

I would say that a province with 3.5 million and 4 universities (including one of the largest and best in Canada) along with another 6 other degree granting institutions is doing fine on the post secondary front.

Now in terms of a lack of financial industry, that is due to huge centralization of the industry in Ontario. Remember that if there were different regulations within the industry (currently there is protection and it is under federal jurisdiction) things may have eveloved differently. So an indepentant Alberta may have different laws and less protection allowing other banks to come in and protection for local banks (ATB for example is fairly large in Alberta) as the current big 5 Candian Banks would be considered foreign banks.

In terms of manufacturing, I would argue there is enough manufacturing currently in the province and is it growing.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/manuf28.htm

To put things in perspective, when compared to the 2 largest provinces you named Alberta has 23% of Ontario's manufacturing sales and 27% of Ontario's population. When compared with Quebec, Alberta has 45% of Quebec's manufacturing sales and 45% of Quebecs population. In other words fairly similar. the difference is that due to the size of the O&G this gets missed. On a per capita number, Alberta actually produces a fair amount of manufactoring but it get lost as a %age of its economy. In terms of manufacturing growth, Alberta actually has a growing manufacturing base at the moment that is the fastest in Canada (total numbers from 2003-2007) according to Stats Canada. Its just that this growth has not kept up at the same rates as the Oil industry or the general Alberta economy as a whole.
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/econ15.htm
You can see the Nominal GDP of Alberta has grown immensely iver the last 5 years and continues to grow at a rate significantly higher than the rest of the country. It is just that the manufacturing sector has not kept pace with that level of overall growth. I would mention that with a GDP almost equal to Quebec, I figure the province would be fine on its own, not saying its a good thing as I beleive every province benefits with the union (labour mobility for example benefits all provinces, combined embassies, combined defence, etc)

[wild wild west]

Alberta has a number of Canada's most important companies outside the O&G industry - Shaw, CP Rail, PCL, Stantec, Westjet just to name a few - not to mention the western operations and distribution points of many national companies - so I don't agree with Gerrard's comment re: not much other than tourism and O&G. Conversely, however, the presence of such companies is in itself grounds not to separate, since we would most surely lose many or most of them if we did.

[Acajack]

The real question is not whether Alberta could make a go of it as an independent country. Of course it could. There are just under 200 independent countries in the world, and I’d say more than 80% of them have less going for them than a country of Alberta would.

The real issue is whether people in Alberta would want to do this in sufficient enough numbers to make the break, and the answer to that question is definitely no. A handful of these people may be hiding out somewhere in Okotoks or wherever, but personally I’ve never heard an Albertan say he/she was “NOT Canadian”. Whereas, I hear people here in Quebec tell me they’re not Canadian (or don’t feel at all Canadian) all the time. In fact, there a few of them sitting just a few feet away from me right now. And I’m sitting in Gatineau with a great view of Ottawa across the river to boot.

Aside from Quebec, the only other province from which I’ve heard people say they weren’t Canadian is Newfoundland.

[Acajack]

I am trying very hard to find instances of national independence coming about as a result of primarily economic motivations. Of course, economic factors are usually cited, but they’re never the main driving force. Recent separations (Kosovo, East Timor, etc.) have all been primarily based on ethnic/cultural/religious factors.

So it’s hard to envision that Alberta, which has achieved within Canada a standard of living equal to that of the world’s most prosperous countries (Norway, Luxembourg), could become independent for financial reasons. I mean, at some point one has to ask: how rich is rich enough?

In today’s Canada, everyone obviously knows which province has the best case for independence based on ethnocultural factors. On the economic side, certainly Newfoundland has the best case of them all. It has been treated chiefly as a net supplier of labour to more prosperous provinces and the rare resources it has have been totally mismanaged over the years.

[ErickMontreal]

Whereas, I hear people here in Quebec tell me they’re not Canadian (or don’t feel at all Canadian) all the time. In fact, there a few of them sitting just a few feet away from me right now. And I’m sitting in Gatineau with a great view of Ottawa across the river to boot.

I can confirm that Quebec has nothing to do with Canada in many ways. Neither one is better or worst, just quite different.

[big W]

I can confirm that Quebec has nothing to do with Canada in many ways. Neither one is better or worst, just quite different.

Yes but those are all areas of provincial jurisdiction as per the Canadian constitution. The so called autonomy is just actually enforcing the constitution. The Federal Government in Canada is really a glorified EU government. When one gets down to the constitution, the provinces or Canada are equal in stature to the feds but have differnet powers. Hope that makes sence.

[AndrewJ3D]

Is the power not based on population? And are the citizens of Canada not our biggest resource? The amount of revenue the government receives from taxes from working Canadians effects us greater then what the government receives from taxes from a natural resource. When I hear Alberta Separatist party all I can think of is people like this. Except you guys don't have Whole Foods yet.


http://bostonist.com/attachments/kmacjp/yuppies.jpg

[240glt]

LOL... ah, I don't think that picture reflects the typcial Alberta sovereigntist

[LordMandeep]

http://images.easyart.com/i/prints/rw/lg/1/3/Grant-Wood-American-Gothic--1930-13297.jpg


believe it or not, there are still many people here who still think Alberta is some hillbilly place with cowboys and cows. Like how Texas is seen in the states, but in reality they both are economic powerhouses.

[240glt]

^ True, although it does appear that most Alberta Separatists come from a rural background. Not sayin' they're hillbillies, but definitely not the ipod, country club yuppie set.

[jeffwhit]

I wish the alberta seperatists would separate themselves from Alberta, you know, all 5 dozen of them.

The reason this thread is stupid is because it assumes there is some sort of creedence to the idea of sepratist movement in Alberta. There isn't any movement. There's a tiny amount of total nutbars with a few websites.

[Acajack]

The Federal Government in Canada is really a glorified EU government. When one gets down to the constitution, the provinces or Canada are equal in stature to the feds but have differnet powers.

In principle, if one looks at the original idea of Confederation (and even the dictionary definition of "confederation") it's supposed to be like that. But the reality is that the federal government is much more involved that the EU government will likely ever be able to be.

Power in Canada has become increasingly centralized in the federal camp during the 130-odd years this country has existed, with various reasons invoked to justify this trend, from the social safety net to countering the influence of the U.S. to battling Quebec separatism.

And if you look at polls, most Canadians (esp. outside Quebec and sometimes Alberta) don't really have a problem with that. The perception is that the national government that represents them best and has legitimacy is the one in Ottawa and that the provinces are lesser entities. In a sense, nation-building through centralization has done its job in most of the country.

[boden]

I say whatever floats your boat. If this forum is any indication it is a done deal.
Good luck.

[big W]

And if you look at polls, most Canadians (esp. outside Quebec and sometimes Alberta) don't really have a problem with that. The perception is that the national government that represents them best and has legitimacy is the one in Ottawa and that the provinces are lesser entities. In a sense, nation-building through centralization has done its job in most of the country.

Then if that is the case then we will no longer hear McGuinty and Ontarians telling the feds "give us back our money". In reality we still are very regional across Canada. AB, QC represent over a third of Canadians. That is not a minority that can easily be dismissed. I would bet that the tax cuts we are seeing on the federal level with our current government push us back to this original vision. Add in the cuts in transfers to the provinces by Martin when he was Finance Minister "need to balance the books" and this really has been the case for a while now.

[Nutterbug]

I actually favour Cascadian secession. There seems to be enough support for it among the NW US members of this board, but there doesn't seem to be as pressing a desire for BC'ers to break from Canada (most likely to do with the fact that we haven't waged any wars overseas yet). But I think we would be better off hooked up with Seattle than with Toronto here.

[Acajack]

Interesting book for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations_of_North_America

[HAMRetrofit]

http://bostonist.com/attachments/kmacjp/yuppies.jpg

That picture pretty much summarizes Yorkville.