[HAMRetrofit]

I would like to open up a discussion about Canadian City States. What cities would benefit the most? Who are the most prepared? Could your city be a city state?

[LordMandeep]

Any City that gives out more taxes then it receives would benefit.

I would imagine a GTA city state would be very successful.

[vid]

Any City that gives out more taxes then it receives would benefit.

Well that's pretty much every city. :koko:

For Toronto to benefit you would have to sever a huge part away from Ontario. It would hurt the province too much. And where would you draw the boundaries?

Other than that no other city really fits that situation. Montreal and Toronto would probably benefit from greater autonomy but not city-state status.

[MonkeyRonin]

All cities over 1 million, or at the very least, the 3 largest, should rightfully be their own provinces.

[LordMandeep]

I would Imagine if it does hurt the province, there would be conflicts over who should be part of the city state.

I do agree, if cities were given more power, they would be better.

The federal govt is becoming less important and the Provinces are now very important... Maybe the trend will continue...

[401_King]

T.O, man i wish lol

[Greco Roman]

All cities over 1 million, or at the very least, the 3 largest, should rightfully be their own provinces.


So then tell me, how many cities in the US with populations of over 1 million function as a seperate state? And out of all those cities, which ones function the best under these jurisdictions?

[MonkeyRonin]

So then tell me, how many cities in the US with populations of over 1 million function as a seperate state? And out of all those cities, which ones function the best under these jurisdictions?

What does the US have to do with anything here? :shrug:

[Spocket]

All you're doing is adding another level of bureaucracy to pay for. Other than greater autonomy (and let's be clear, we're not talking about limitless power here either) there's no real benefit that can't be found under the present system.
I wouldn't mind seeing the arguments in favour of city-states and I'm certainly open to hearing them and maybe being swayed to change my mind. All the same, the only real difference that comes to mind is that there'd be more government to pay for.

[Greco Roman]

What does the US have to do with anything here? :shrug:

I'm just picking people's brains on this idea. Since Canada has no examples of it's own, maybe there exists somewhere in the US to draw examples from. And if not the US, maybe some other country to demonstrate the success of city states.

[graupner]

I'm just picking people's brains on this idea. Since Canada has no examples of it's own, maybe there exists somewhere in the US to draw examples from. And if not the US, maybe some other country to demonstrate the success of city states.

singapour, hong kong, monaco, vatican, Macao, the City of London, D.C., etc. There are many exemples and a vast majority are truly successful cities.
But beware, they didn't become successful because of their status.

[MolsonExport]

And how would the boundaries be decided? and if the metro grew, would the boundaries grow accordingly?

Personally, I think that it is completely unneccessary.

[caltrane74]

Toronto, we could rule the world if we didn't have to deal with the provincial and federal overlay.

We could be like Singapore, Monaco, or Hong Kong.

[HAMRetrofit]

Hypothetically, if Toronto were to create its own city state it would need to include Oshawa, Hamilton, and Kitchener. It would need to include most of the Niagara Peninsula including Nanticoke, Niagara Falls, and all border crossings.

If it included all this, the city-state would still have direct access to the US, three developing international airports, major ports on Lake Ontario and Lake Erie, and control of the 401 west of the GTA.

[Spocket]

^The only thing is that Toronto doesn't exist in a vacuum. Toronto is a successful city because it's Canada's greatest urban centre. Remove it from Canadian jurisdiction (just as Singapore is a sovereign political entity) and what have you got ? The answer is that you've got every reason as a Canadian to do your business in Montreal or Calgary instead of Toronto.

[caltrane74]

^The only thing is that Toronto doesn't exist in a vacuum. Toronto is a successful city because it's Canada's greatest urban centre. Remove it from Canadian jurisdiction (just as Singapore is a sovereign political entity) and what have you got ? The answer is that you've got every reason as a Canadian to do your business in Montreal or Calgary instead of Toronto.

Yes, we would loose the Benefit of being a part of Canada. But we have the benefit of being 8 Million people packed into a tight area with the best communications, technology, & transportation infastructure anywhere on the planet. On top of that the existing wealth of the city would be an impetious for major rush of offshore capital, with the removal of any federal and/or provincial barriers to investment.

Trust me. If you think we roll now. Watch how we roll as a city state. We'd make Hong Kong look small time.

[skyscraper_1]

^ Exactly. Toronto is the "economic heart" of Canada, separate the two and both die.

[MolsonExport]

Legally, municipalities are creatures of the provinces.

[HAMRetrofit]

^ actually remove the heart and transplant it into something else and it keeps beating. Remove the heart from the rest of Canada and the body dies.

[skyscraper_1]

^ actually remove the heart and transplant it into something else and it keeps beating. Remove the heart from the rest of Canada and the body dies.Or the rest of Canada finds a new heart.....

[caltrane74]

^ Exactly. Toronto is the "economic heart" of Canada, separate the two and both die.


No, Canada has Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary.

....

Toronto has an established business community yearning to break free of the combersome yoke of federal and provincial gov't mismanagment. (Not to mention the constant siphoning of cash out of the city by both levels of gov't)

In the end...

It's a win-win situation.

[MolsonExport]

^hey, perhaps Canadian headquarters would move back to Montreal (as well as to Vancouver, Calgary, etc.) if Toronto succeeds.

[caltrane74]

^hey, perhaps Canadian headquarters would move back to Montreal (as well as to Vancouver, Calgary, etc.) if Toronto succeeds.

Of course that would be part of the deal.

In exchange all international capital that wants to come into Toronto should be welcomed, and of course freed of any heavy provincial or federal red-tape. Toronto could potentially become a financial transhipment point within North America using our advanced communicatons technology infastructure, and massive skilled population to best advantange.


If you can't tell I love the idea of a city state. Get the greedy feds out of our pockets for good.

[quobobo]

God, no. Vancouver city hall is controlling enough as a purely municipal body, I'd rather move to Nunavut than give it more power.

[Spocket]

^ Exactly. Toronto is the "economic heart" of Canada, separate the two and both die.

You missed the point.
Toronto is a city that trades on Canada's resources. It's the main gateway and exit for the Canadian market. That's the whole reason it's such a successful city when compared to other cities on the other side of the US border that went downhill over the last few decades. So if Toronto draws its wealth, its raison d'etre from being Canada's economic engine, why would it be better off if it wasn't a part of Canada ?

Canadians aren't going to let their biggest banks remain in Toronto if it seperates. Either they move or we support new institutions that are actually IN Canada. We're not going to pay import tariffs on items coming out of Pearson when we could just concentrate on Dorval or Mirabel. Over time you'll get a reversal of the trend we've watched ever since Quebec threatened to seperate. In fact, there's your proof right there that a Toronto city-state would fail while Canada would keep on doing just fine.

Quebec threatened to seperate and what happened ? Businesses moved down the 401 to Toronto. Only now with over a decade of 'tranquility' on the seperatism front has Montreal seen a resurgence.
If Toronto were to seperate, you could say goodgye to the media jobs, the financial sector jobs, marketing jobs, resource-based industry jobs...the list goes on really.

Canada might experience a few years of economic hardship but don't kid yourself, Toronto would be economically gutted without Canada.

[skyscraper_1]

You missed the point.
Toronto is a city that trades on Canada's resources. It's the main gateway and exit for the Canadian market. That's the whole reason it's such a successful city when compared to other cities on the other side of the US border that went downhill over the last few decades. So if Toronto draws its wealth, its raison d'etre from being Canada's economic engine, why would it be better off if it wasn't a part of Canada ?

Canadians aren't going to let their biggest banks remain in Toronto if it seperates. Either they move or we support new institutions that are actually IN Canada. We're not going to pay import tariffs on items coming out of Pearson when we could just concentrate on Dorval or Mirabel. Over time you'll get a reversal of the trend we've watched ever since Quebec threatened to seperate. In fact, there's your proof right there that a Toronto city-state would fail while Canada would keep on doing just fine.

Quebec threatened to seperate and what happened ? Businesses moved down the 401 to Toronto. Only now with over a decade of 'tranquility' on the seperatism front has Montreal seen a resurgence.
If Toronto were to seperate, you could say goodgye to the media jobs, the financial sector jobs, marketing jobs, resource-based industry jobs...the list goes on really.

Canada might experience a few years of economic hardship but don't kid yourself, Toronto would be economically gutted without Canada.

This is exactly what I am saying.(I was actually agreeing with your post.)

[Spocket]

This is exactly what I am saying.(I was actually agreeing with your post.)

Sorry about that. I got to reading some of the other posts and forgot to differentiate. My apologies. Although I do still contend that Canada isn't in any real danger if Toronto seperates but rather only Toronto stands to lose.

[caltrane74]

You missed the point.
Toronto is a city that trades on Canada's resources. It's the main gateway and exit for the Canadian market. That's the whole reason it's such a successful city when compared to other cities on the other side of the US border that went downhill over the last few decades. So if Toronto draws its wealth, its raison d'etre from being Canada's economic engine, why would it be better off if it wasn't a part of Canada ?

Canadians aren't going to let their biggest banks remain in Toronto if it seperates. Either they move or we support new institutions that are actually IN Canada. We're not going to pay import tariffs on items coming out of Pearson when we could just concentrate on Dorval or Mirabel. Over time you'll get a reversal of the trend we've watched ever since Quebec threatened to seperate. In fact, there's your proof right there that a Toronto city-state would fail while Canada would keep on doing just fine.

Quebec threatened to seperate and what happened ? Businesses moved down the 401 to Toronto. Only now with over a decade of 'tranquility' on the seperatism front has Montreal seen a resurgence.
If Toronto were to seperate, you could say goodgye to the media jobs, the financial sector jobs, marketing jobs, resource-based industry jobs...the list goes on really.

Canada might experience a few years of economic hardship but don't kid yourself, Toronto would be economically gutted without Canada.

The main reason why Toronto would suceed is because we have a massive population in a confined space.- Very high tech communications infastructure, mature banking and financial services industry. On top of that the population is very well educated and has access to the some of the largest reserves of capital per person on earth. And a total GDP approaching 400 Billion. Kinda like Hong Kong on steriods, I mean if we were allowed to seperate of course it would be wicked. But then where would the feds get their cash.

As for the banks, HQ leaving Toronto. Of course they would have to move somewhere else, but new banks would have to move in to serve this now vacant financial market, whether its Canadian banks or foriegn banks, you better believe that void would be filled in short order. On top of that you would see a number of European, Asian and Middle East banks setting up shop in Toronto as a way to access into the wealthy Toronto market.

[someone123]

As already mentioned, Toronto is what it is because it is a national metropolis. Aside from that, Toronto has basically zero geopolitical advantages along the lines of Hong Kong or Singapore. Toronto is Cleveland elevated to its present status because it happened to be the next best alternative to Montreal in Canada.

Its large population and present wealth (which is not actually that exceptional overall since there are lots of poor people to go along with the rich) would give it some inertia (like what Montreal has) but it's really naive to totally ignore how it relates to the rest of the country (which has massive natural resources and five times the population) or assume that Toronto could separate and receive some kind of sweetheart deal where it gets everything it does now and yet pays nothing in return.

[caltrane74]

As already mentioned, Toronto is what it is because it is a national metropolis. Aside from that, Toronto has basically zero geopolitical advantages along the lines of Hong Kong or Singapore. Toronto is Cleveland elevated to its present status because it happened to be the next best alternative to Montreal in Canada.

Its large population and present wealth would give it some inertia (like what Montreal has) but it's really naive to totally ignore how it relates to the rest of the country (which has massive natural resources and five times the population) or assume that Toronto could separate and receive some kind of sweetheart deal where it gets everything it does now and yet pays nothing in return.

Seperated from the burdon of the unfair provincial and federal tax regime. Toronto could invest the cash which is generated here, on better education facilities, better job training and attract the best companies to set up shop here with all the advantages possible. It's not naive to think that at as present huge flows of cash generated inside Toronto, leave Toronto 1 billion a year excess to the province, and 7 billion dollar a year excess to the feds. All that money reinvested inside Toronto would go a long way to easing us out of the federal union which has made the rest of the country far too dependant on the cash being generated within the confines of the GTA. Not to mention the the current anti-Toronto basis of the federal gov't would not factor in our future growth, and we could be masters of our own destiny. Secondly you know you can't compare Toronto to Clevland our economy is diversifed to the hilt, Cleveland is your typical US rust belt town, Toronto is a closer match to Chicago or New York than it is to Cleveland, Detroit or Buffalo. - We are a global financial center, last I checked bigger than Hong Kong, Macao, Monte Carlo or Singapore.

[vid]

Yes, we would loose the Benefit of being a part of Canada. But we have the benefit of being 8 Million people packed into a tight area with the best communications, technology, & transportation infastructure anywhere on the planet. On top of that the existing wealth of the city would be an impetious for major rush of offshore capital, with the removal of any federal and/or provincial barriers to investment.

Trust me. If you think we roll now. Watch how we roll as a city state. We'd make Hong Kong look small time.

Hong Kong is the centre of an emerging conurbation of about 80 million people. :hi: It's denser, taller, and more well known. Hong Kong is, I am sorry to say this, a step up from Toronto.

The rest of your comments are equally laughable. I showed them to my colleagues and they said you were an idiot! :haha:

[caltrane74]

Hong Kong is the centre of an emerging conurbation of about 80 million people. :hi: It's denser, taller, and more well known. Hong Kong is, I am sorry to say this, a step up from Toronto.

The rest of your comments are equally laughable. I showed them to my colleagues and they said you were an idiot! :haha:

vid I think your an idoit. That makes us even.

:haha:

[vid]

vid I think your an idoit. That makes us even.

:haha:

What about my idiot?

I think your car. It doesn't make sense but if you want to play that silly game I guess I'll bite.

[wild wild west]

At first blush the big cities prop up Canada and all the money is flowing out of them to the hinterland. However, the hinterland is what made our big cities into what they are, and to some extent continues to fuel our growth. There may be the odd non-resource industry success story like RIM but for the most part Canada is a resource-based economy, and its primary cities reflect that. And in the case of Toronto - last nail in the coffin for the automotive industry in the Golden Horseshoe. Take the hinterland out of the equation, and I don't see an upside.

And yeah, please stop comparing Toronto to Hong Kong and NYC.

[caltrane74]

I don't get how it's "ok" to compare to Toronto to Cleveland or Buffalo but "not" New York or Hong Kong.

We obviously have more in comon with the latter than the former.

[vid]

No, you have about as much in common with Buffalo and Cleveland as you do with New York, London and Hong Kong. Hence the term, Hongnytorlon (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nylonkong).

[wild wild west]

I don't get how it's "ok" to compare to Toronto to Cleveland or Buffalo but "not" New York or Hong Kong.

We obviously have more in comon with the latter than the former.

I'd respectfully suggest that either comparison is invalid and ridiculous. However, I think the point re: Cleveland was that the circumstances that led to Toronto supplanting Montreal to become Canada's biggest city differentiate Toronto from other Great Lakes cities like Cleveland.

[caltrane74]

Well for the point of this thread, I think comparisions to Singapore, Hong Kong, Macau or Monaco are valid. All of the above have been extremely successful without 2nd and 3rd layers of government to hinder their development and growth. - There is no doubt that urban areas have the advantage in this global economy and that the support which is required for the less populous regions of any country will always be a drag on the economic engines of a country.

[vid]

Singapore was a very authoritarian nation (still is in some ways), Hong Kong and Macau have many issues with China (and the later is just a coastal Las Vegas) and Monaco is too overpriced. They're all completely different situations to Toronto. To be in their league Toronto would have to be much more dense than it is today. Vancouver would probably be a better argument for being like Hong Kong than Toronto.

If having large hinterlands is a drag on the rest of the province, why won't Ontario let the north go?

[Aefix]

If having large hinterlands is a drag on the rest of the province, why won't Ontario let the north go?

Because then we won't be a have-not province after all! We're looking forward to those equalization payments, no? :)

[someone123]

Inspired by various threads...

http://www.pbase.com/image/94778968/original.jpg

[vid]

Haha, Thunder Bay's waterfront is world class too! :D It's like Stanly Park, the Forks, and Toronto Island, rolled into one!! :D

[MonkeyRonin]

The rest of your comments are equally laughable. I showed them to my colleagues and they said you were an idiot! :haha:

Because I'm sure your colleagues up in Thunder Bay are just sooo knowledgeable about Toronto's economy right now. :rolleyes:


No, you have about as much in common with Buffalo and Cleveland as you do with New York, London and Hong Kong. Hence the term, Hongnytorlon (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nylonkong).

How so, care to expand on that? In terms of population, GDP, GAWC points, highrises, construction, growth, transit, crime, diversity, immigration, and pretty much any other measurable shit, Toronto is MUCH closer to NY/HK/LON (in many cases even surpassing one or all of them) than Cleveland or Buffalo is to Toronto.

But on this note, I do realize that Canadians have a huge inferiority complex, and are simply more comfortable comparing themselves or others in this country to places like Buffalo.


To be in their league Toronto would have to be much more dense than it is today. Vancouver would probably be a better argument for being like Hong Kong than Toronto.

How so? Toronto is denser than Vancouver (assuming that is what you are talking about, which it is based on the rest of the post).

[CCF]

This is actually laughable.

Toronto serves as the headquarters of all the businesses which operate throughout Canada.

If you take Toronto out of Canada, these companies will relocate to another city within Canada.

[Aylmer]

Aylmer!

:)

[401_King]

This is actually laughable.

Toronto serves as the headquarters of all the businesses which operate throughout Canada.

If you take Toronto out of Canada, these companies will relocate to another city within Canada.

but as mentioned before, other new HQs would be set up to support T.O once the CDN ones leave

[MolsonExport]

^from where? Headquarters of what?

[401_King]

^ banks, manufacturing etc. see Caltrane's post

[MolsonExport]

What banks? What manufacturing? From where, and why?

[401_King]

Investment banks. financial services. why? there is money to be made through investments, its a profitable business

[The Kid]

Can we just combine this thread with the Alberta seperation thread and rename it the "Ridiculous thread" because that's what this really is.

I predict Toronto becomes a city state the same year Alberta seperates and becomes an Independent nation ......NEVER!

[vid]

Because I'm sure your colleagues up in Thunder Bay are just sooo knowledgeable about Toronto's economy right now. :rolleyes:

I was making fun of HAMRetrofit. I don't have any colleagues! We're all unemployed up here, remember?

How so, care to expand on that?

Okay.

In terms of population

Greater Toronto has about 5 million less than London Metro, about 13 million less than Greater New York, and 2 million less than Hong Kong proper. The entire Pearl River Delta, of which Hong Kong is a part, has about 20 million.

GDP, GAWC points

London's GDP is $670B. New York's is $950B. Hong Kong's is $263B. Toronto's GDP is $152B. (From what I've found on Google; IIRC the real number is closer to $300B, and the $150B is just the city proper? Well, you beat Hong Kong in this aspect if I am right.)

I can't find anything reliable about GWAC points, and don't know what they are, so I'll give you that one as a freeby. Toronto: Number one in GWAC points.

highrises

According to Emporis, the "official" source: London has about 1,600 in its city proper. Hong Kong has about 8,000 and New York has about 5,800. Toronto has about 2,000. So, you beat London, but then it's a pretty dense low-rise city. As for the other two, not even close. These numbers were for city proper.

construction

I don't have the time to really research this. I'll give you another freeby.

growth

Using wiki, here are some years:

Hong Kong:

1900 - 284,000
1950 - 2,200,000
1971 - 4,000,000
1995 - 6,300,000
1999 - 6,900,000
2006 - 6,700,000

New York:

1900 - 3,400,000
1950 - 7,900,000
1970 - 7,900,000
1990 - 7,300,000
2000 - 8,000,000
2007 - 8,300,000

London:

1900 - 6,500,000
1950 - 8,200,000
1970 - 7,500,000
1990 - 6,800,000
2001 - 7,100,000
2007 - 7,700,000

Toronto:

1901 - 230,000
1951 - 1,100,000
1971 - 2,100,000
1991 - 2,300,000
2001 - 2,500,000
2007 - 2,500,000

Of course, population isn't the only aspect of growth, but it gives you a little bit of an idea. Hong Kong grew much faster. London and New York have more history and a larger catchment area and were long major centres of finance. Their populations peaked in the 1920s to 1950s and are regaining lost ground today. Toronto has always grown.

transit

In that area, from what I know of them, I would say you'd be a decent contender. Although I've heard some bad things about your subway stations lately.. in terms of passenger numbers, half billion isn't too bad.

According to a Google Answers thing (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=784708) I found, 87% of people in Hong Kong use public transit. Lower on that page it says New York has 3 billion yearly transit users. London has 1.7 billion bus users and just under 1 billion underground riders.

crime

I don't feel like looking this up. New York is notorious for crime but has cleaned up recently and Toronto is consistently rated as one of the safest cities in North America. I don't know figured for Hong Kong or London, or any other arbitrary information to make a shred of an opinion on this topic. In terms of crime, Toronto is probably safer than all three.

diversity

i'll give you this one too. Very few cities are as diverse as Toronto. (And real diverse, not just 40% Indian.)

immigration

i'm getting lazier as I go on. Toronto's growth rate has been low recently but that's pretty much entirely thanks to new Canadians. (That is, if it wasn't for immigration, Toronto wouldn't be growing very much.) London is well known for its diversity as is New York. I can't speak for Hong Kong.

Toronto is MUCH closer to NY/HK/LON (in many cases even surpassing one or all of them) than Cleveland or Buffalo is to Toronto.

Yes, but is isn't in the same league as New York or London or Hong Kong.

How so? Toronto is denser than Vancouver (assuming that is what you are talking about, which it is based on the rest of the post).

I was talking about the peninsula. If anything is going to resemble Hong Kong in this country, it's Vancouver. Montreal is more like London (older and a river port) while Toronto would be like New York (open water port, skyscrapers concentrated in a thin, long horizontal area. In New York, on Manhattan. In Toronto, along Yonge Street.)

Of course, we could make the arguments for other cities. Winnipeg is centred on a river and does lots of trade like London. Victoria is very dense and on an island. Halifax is on a peninsula, that's kinda like Hong Kong as well. Put downtown Saskatoon on an island - mini Manhattan!

And 401_King and Molson: That was a laugh a minute. Thanks. :)

[MonkeyRonin]

Greater Toronto has about 5 million less than London Metro, about 13 million less than Greater New York, and 2 million less than Hong Kong proper. The entire Pearl River Delta, of which Hong Kong is a part, has about 20 million.

A better way of looking at it:

Toronto (6m) has 31% of New York (19m), 70% of London (8.5m), and 85% of Hong Kong (7m). Cleveland (2.3m) has 38% of Toronto, and Buffalo 20% (1.2m).


I can't find anything reliable about GWAC points, and don't know what they are, so I'll give you that one as a freeby. Toronto: Number one in GWAC points.

London & New York - 12 points
Hong Kong - 10 points
Toronto - 9 points
Cleveland - 2 points
Buffalo - 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city


Of course, population isn't the only aspect of growth, but it gives you a little bit of an idea. Hong Kong grew much faster. London and New York have more history and a larger catchment area and were long major centres of finance. Their populations peaked in the 1920s to 1950s and are regaining lost ground today. Toronto has always grown.

GTA's population growth has been the highest both in total numbers and per capita. Economic growth, is I believe, second to Hong Kong.


I don't feel like looking this up. New York is notorious for crime but has cleaned up recently and Toronto is consistently rated as one of the safest cities in North America. I don't know figured for Hong Kong or London, or any other arbitrary information to make a shred of an opinion on this topic. In terms of crime, Toronto is probably safer than all three.

Crime-wise, Hong Kong is by far the best (one of world's safest), but the other 3 are basically comparable. New York for instance, has a higher homicide and robbery rate than Toronto, but TO has a higher burglary and auto-theft rate. London, I'm not too sure about either, but homicides seem to be low, but other crimes rather high.

[Ayreonaut]

Isn't London 11 million?

[theman23]

Wait, Vid has colleagues? I didn't realize they had brought back paired shifts to 7/11.

[theman23]

Inspired by various threads...

http://www.pbase.com/image/94778968/original.jpg

What is this? The CN tower is at least twice as tall as that.

[vid]

A better way of looking at it:

Toronto METRO has 31% of New York METRO, 70% of London PROPER, and 85% of Hong Kong PROPER. Cleveland METRO has 38% of Toronto, and Buffalo METRO 20%.

I was comparing metros. You have about 55% of London.




London & New York - 12 points
Hong Kong - 10 points
Toronto - 9 points
Cleveland - 2 points
Buffalo - 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city

Oh, I see. Well you're right up there! 75% of New York and London and 90% of Hong Kong! Now all you need is to become a major global financial centre and you're set! Losing all of your Canadian Headquarters would be a great start to that!

Wait, Vid has colleagues? I didn't realize they had brought back paired shifts to 7/11.

Haha, you contributed nothing to the discussion AND made fun of another member! :hahano: Keep going, theman23. You become more like me every day. :)

[CCF]

but as mentioned before, other new HQs would be set up to support T.O once the CDN ones leave

SO corporations once serving over 30 million people, now serve 7 million people. Start counting the job losses!!

[MonkeyRonin]

I was comparing metros. You have about 55% of London.

Greater London/urban area has about 8.5 million. There are another 4 million or so outside of the greenbelt, but I don't know if we should include this as part of the "metro" (instead being more like a CSA or something).

And metro Hong Kong is synonymous with the city of Hong Kong. The Pearl Delta is not HK's suburbs. Rather, the "city" would be Kowloon + HK Island, and the New Territories are the suburbs.

[WhipperSnapper]

It's not just national corporations that would eventually pull out of Toronto but all the Canadian subsidiaries of international players.

You're probably talking an 80% job loss in 10 years and a virtual ghost town not much later. Canada, on the other hand, providing it stays together would eventually FULLY recover the loss of Toronto although rather slow and painful

Hong Kong , Singapore, London, etc. are all successful as they were basically designed as city states ... city states long before their economies matured

[HAMRetrofit]

The subsidiaries and national corporations would probably remain for the 5-6 million living in the city state. They would become the city state's own corporate base. For the remaining 24-26 million they would probably find a new home in another city.

[vid]

Yeah but how many people do you need to serve 5 to 6 million? For a reference point, Minnesota is 5 million. Look at all the head offices they have.

Also, being international, it will be harder for people around Toronto but not in it to remain employed. They would probably resent you for that. Hamilton and KW will probably gain a lot of the head offices. Pearson, being in another country, will no longer have to serve its purpose as being the "leaping off" point for Canadian travellers, they'd go to Montreal, Ottawa or Hamilton for their flights to Europe or America instead. It would be an airport that serves the GTA only, and not all of central Canada as it is now.

[francely57]

The subsidiaries and national corporations would probably remain for the 5-6 million living in the city state. They would become the city state's own corporate base. For the remaining 24-26 million they would probably find a new home in another city.

The 401 is still there... :D


But actually, Montreal seems to have as much beef with the ROQ as Toronto with the ROC.
If TO does separate, MTL could probably do the same.

[Rathgrith]

Why not ship everyone from Toronto out to PEI and ship everyone from PEI into Toronto. That way Toronto can become a province and PEI (which should never have been a province) can be learn to live like all the other rural regions of Canada. The potatoes can stay in PEI for all I care.

[someone123]

Yes, Prince Edward Island is a massive travesty of a province. Something must be done.

[vid]

It made more sense in 1871, I'm sure. They have more representation than anywhere else in Canada.

[someone123]

Prince Edward Island had roughly twice the population of Toronto in 1871.

PEI's strange status goes back to the 18th century. It was only taken by the British in the 1760s and there was an attempt to create a feudal society controlled by British landlords. It should have been handed over to NS or NB, as Cape Breton was (once it largely missed out on Loyalist immigration and lost the importance it had before the fall of Louisbourg) in 1820.

New Brunswick is also somewhat screwed up in that it was created in large part simply to "pay off" Loyalists for their losses in the US. The original government jobs were basically just patronage positions subsidized by the British government. Prior to 1784 it was a sparsely settled part of Nova Scotia.

If you want to go back even farther, I believe Nova Scotia was a part of Massachusetts at one point.

[vid]

It was part of New England before New England was split up into pieces.

[HAMRetrofit]

I guess that is the funniest thing about this all. Our boundaries are still drawn like it is 1871 and certain things just don't make any sense.

[vid]

Yeah, the way the seats are dished out in the constitution is more than backward.

[graupner]

We are a global financial center, last I checked bigger than Hong Kong, Macao, Monte Carlo or Singapore.

No offense but I see you've never been to Hong Kong ;) . Hong Kong is much bigger than Toronto on the financial level. Singapour is also similarly sized if not more important given its huge international port.

[vid]

What, Toronto's port isn't big enough?

[graupner]

A better way of looking at it:

Toronto (6m) has 31% of New York (19m), 70% of London (8.5m), and 85% of Hong Kong (7m). Cleveland (2.3m) has 38% of Toronto, and Buffalo 20% (1.2m).



Hmm if Toronto is 6 millions than Hong Kong is somewhat closer to 20 millions. Even if I agree toronto is closer to a global city than cleveland of buf, are to toronto, TO is still very far from beeing HK or London or NY.

[vid]

Hong Kong as about 7 million in the territory itself but it's becoming increasingly integrated into the Pearl River Delta region, which rivals New York in size.

[trueviking]

with 1300 kms to the next city (800 kms if you go south), winnipeg is basically a city state.

sorry saskatchewan.

[giallo]

It's not just national corporations that would eventually pull out of Toronto but all the Canadian subsidiaries of international players.

You're probably talking an 80% job loss in 10 years and a virtual ghost town not much later. Canada, on the other hand, providing it stays together would eventually FULLY recover the loss of Toronto although rather slow and painful

Hong Kong , Singapore, London, etc. are all successful as they were basically designed as city states ... city states long before their economies matured

You nailed it. This talk of Toronto being a city state is bizarre. The reason TO is the city it is is because of Canada. Take Canada out of Toronto's equation and you're not left with much. All the financial institutions that make Toronto the power house that it is would relocate to MTL, CAL or VAN. Actually, I can't believe people are even talking about it seriously.

Caltrane, I love ya, man, but I'm not going to let the HK jab slip by. Do you really think Toronto would make HK look small time if it was a city state? Remember that HK has an unbelievable port location that feeds in to Mainland China. Only recently have other port cities in China started to dim HK's flame. Until recently HK was the most reliable and safest city for investing money in to China.....a country of 1.4 billion people. What could Toronto offer that NYC, SF, BTN or any other financial city in North America couldn't?

[caltrane74]

Why Toronto would suceed as a city state?:

Get the feds the fuck out of our faces. That burden alone would remove so much useless taxes being sucked from us, we could give international business that 8 Billion dollars to set up shop in Toronto.

We could remove the combersome federal income tax from our citizens. Harmonize our business and personal taxes for maxium efficenies.

We could remove undue federal and provincial regulation.

Remove spending on National items that have absolutely no benefit to Toronto.

The efficency of the Toronto economy would be maximized without the yoke of federal and provincial regulation and taxation.

Canada would win.

Toronto wins.

I like the idea of a Toronto city state.

EDIT for gaillo

__________________

Sorry man, I didn't mean any jab at Hong Kong. I was only using it as a point of reference for what can be achieve when you remove multiple layers of government from an urban jurisdication. Hong Kong suceeded because it didn't have a federal governement burdening it's citizens, it's economy developed freely and without undue regulation. Allowing for natural economies of scale to development to develop the Chinese hinterland. Yes, Canada is no China, but Toronto's hinterland is the world, we have an extremely well educated, mobile,diverse and wealthy population with ties all over the world, that if freed from overbearing levels of government could bring in billions of dollars of homespun business into this city in the blink of an eye.
We could totally redesign our economy for a global age, using all the siphoned tax money ( I dunno) about 8 billion dollars to set up infastructure funds, development funds, business incentives for Toronto based companies. The list of possiblities is almost endless. Add onto that the established business community that thrives already in this city and the communications and financial network that has been built in this city for the past 150 years and we have a major head start in going it alone.

___________

EDIT Canadian Banks leaving Toronto.

This is a given that the HQ of Canadian banks would have to leave Toronto, it just makes sense. But they would have to leave major operations inside Toronto, for risk of losing the market to other International Banks that would move in. Or worse case New Toronto Centred Banks. Toronto financial market is still huge in the relative Canadian scheme of things and the skill focus here would be hard for the big banks to walk away from. All the high end financial skill services which are provided in the MINT, the legal servies, the telecommunications networks required to move the money around the world are all located downtown. I mean we didn't become a global banking center because of nothing. We have lots to offer, if the Canadian banks didn't want to use the infasctructure which has been built here, then I'm sure we could find banks in around the world that would set up shop here. And if they didn't know how to differenciate us from say Boston or SF then we could wave a billion dollars in their faces and say "hey, look at this $1 billion dollars the federal govn't use to steal from us, we'll give you a piece if you set up shop here, then we'll give you another $1 billion dollars to develop new technologies in Toronto, then we'll give you another $1 billion dollars to train the top people your looking for to work for you, then we'll set up $1 billion dollars for a city fund to give your workers access to liesure activies like swimming, skaking and libaries, and waterfront activties that we could'nt offer before because of a greedy federal goven't stealing our money" IF all of that wasn't enough, we could say ok, we'll put another $1 billion dollars a year into transit to make sure your employees get to work, because the feds were stealing that money too" Then it would be hard for international business to turn their backs on a solid investment in Toronto.

[Acajack]

Don’t forget that Hong Kong was for a very long time in a historically unique situation, under the protective aegis of the British Crown.

This type of “alignment of the stars” that played a huge role in allowing Hong Kong to become what it is today has seldom been seen in history and is unlikely to reappear on the north shore of Lake Ontario any time soon.

[WhipperSnapper]

Why Toronto would suceed as a city state?:

Get the feds the fuck out of our faces. That burden alone would remove so much useless taxes being sucked from us, we could give international business that 8 Billion dollars to set up shop in Toronto.

We could remove the combersome federal income tax from our citizens. Harmonize our business and personal taxes for maxium efficenies.

We could remove undue federal and provincial regulation.

Remove spending on National items that have absolutely no benefit to Toronto.

The efficency of the Toronto economy would be maximized without the yoke of federal and provincial regulation and taxation. You make 8 billion sound bottomless.




Without Canada's protection both the ROC and the USA would have a free-for-all with your highly efficient city/state economy.

[caltrane74]

8 Billion Gov't dollars staying inside Toronto is a lot better than 8 Billion Gov't dollars flyin' off to Newfoundland.

At least IMO, goodlookin'.

That 8 billion dollars in government spending could bring our city back from the dead. We could also lower general taxes, because of the improved fiscal situation in the city, making us a magnet for new business. And we could direct all those new personal income and business taxes to city improvment. It makes so much sense not to support far flung federal gov't programs that have no long term benefit for Toronto. Think about not having to grovel in Ottawa for 30 million dollars to fix our waterfront, and build a new park. Asking the feds to give us 500 million dollars for a new transit line. All of this is our money. We give you 8 billion dollars, you wont even give us a nickel. A Toronto city state is a big "fuck you" to the feds, and good riddience, go get your money somewhere else.

[MolsonExport]

Our money? Did you personally earn it?

Toronto benefits massively from being ground zero for the bulk of Canada's financial industry, and the overwhelming leading city in Canada for Headquarters; of which sales and profits are derived throughout the entire country.

[skyscraper_1]

Think about this: Nova Scotian's send about $700 million per year to be managed on bay street. Much of which is invested around the GTA. Sure there is a lot of money flowing out of Toronto, but there is also a heck of a lot flowing into it from the rest of the country.

Hong Kong's economy is completely different from Toronto's. Hong Kong developed as Britain's Asian port, and then an independent finance center. Toronto, along with London, Paris, New York, Tokyo developed as the center of a national economy. If this city-state idea is such a great idea...why haven't these other major cities try it? Why hasn't London or Paris separated from Britain or France? I am sure large sums of money are flowing from them too.

What about a military? Canada spends 16 billion on military spending for around 32 million people. Meaning Toronto would have to spend round 3 billion to equal a similar per capita spending. How about funding for maintaining the Saint Lawrence seaway? Then add around 160 billion debt for Toronto's share of federal and Ontario's provincial debt.

[caltrane74]

Our money? Did you personally earn it?

Toronto benefits massively from being ground zero for the bulk of Canada's financial industry, and the overwhelming leading city in Canada for Headquarters; of which sales and profits are derived throughout the entire country.

Of course we're earning that money. Do you think the rest of Canada just sends the money to Toronto because we are a bunch of lazy asses. We get to direct that money because the financial-skill-set is located in Toronto. If you don't want to invest your money here, you have the choice to have your money invested by Leaman Brothers or HBSC. No one said you had to give it to us to direct. This can go for any jurisdiction that has major financial employment centres. (i.e Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver)


Think about this: Nova Scotian's send about $700 million per year to be managed on bay street. Much of which is invested around the GTA. Sure there is a lot of money flowing out of Toronto, but there is also a heck of a lot flowing into it from the rest of the country.




You can keep your 700 mill if it will free Toronto of the federal burdens we currently endure.




Hong Kong's economy is completely different from Toronto's. Hong Kong developed as Britain's Asian port, and then an independent finance center. Toronto, along with London, Paris, New York, Tokyo developed as the center of a national economy. If this city-state idea is such a great idea...why haven't these other major cities try it? Why hasn't London or Paris separated from Britain or France? I am sure large sums of money are flowing from them too.


Toronto with 8 Billions dollars of gov't cash returned to us we could create the incentives required for major offshore financial and investment players to set up shop here. Not to mention create a city environment condusive to creating a leisure toursim sector similar to what is currently happening with all the 5 star hotel development in the city. ( kind of a side business similar to Monaco, Macau or Dubai)



What about a military? Canada spends 16 billion on military spending for around 32 million people. Meaning Toronto would have to spend round 3 billion to equal a similar per capita spending. How about funding for maintaining the Saint Lawrence seaway? .

Please.

Who the hell are we fighting anyways... "the Angry North Tonawandians"?



Then add around 160 billion debt for Toronto's share of federal and Ontario's provincial debt
.

Again, we glady take our share of the national/provincial debt to get out of this mess of a financial arrangement as it currently stands.

[someone123]

Toronto's GDP is on the order of $130B while equalization payments in total are only about 1/10 that and don't come exclusively from Toronto by any stretch.

Newfoundland will collect $158 million in equalization payments in the coming year and $742 million from the Atlantic Accord.

The best analogy I can think of for the Toronto city state scheme is somebody running off to live as a hermit in the woods to avoid paying taxes on their house. Sure, you'll save some money, but you'll probably also go a little nuts and live in isolation until somebody finally stumbles across your corpse. :)

[wild wild west]

Of course we're earning that money. Do you think the rest of Canada just sends the money to Toronto because we are a bunch of lazy asses. We get to direct that money because the financial-skill-set is located in Toronto. If you don't want to invest your money here, you have the choice to have your money invested by Leaman Brothers or HBSC. No one said you had to give it to us to direct. This can go for any jurisdiction that has major financial employment centres. (i.e Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver)

The point is, however, that money is being sent to Toronto, and won't any more if Toronto were to secede - whether you earned the right to direct it or not is beside the point. You will lose your place as the primary control point of a G-8 economy, and instead be a city-state wedged between two giants (well, one giant and another large-ish economy - you get the idea). One big reason Canada's big cities became what they are is readily available natural resources - not in your city-state. And what about NAFTA? What does Toronto bring to the table that would gain it entry into NAFTA?

Toronto seceeding would probably be the best thing that ever happened to Montreal, Calgary and Vancouver - but the worst thing that ever happened to Toronto. Classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[caltrane74]

Toronto's GDP is on the order of $130B while equalization payments in total are only about 1/10 that and don't come exclusively from Toronto by any stretch.



130 Billion Dollars at a nominal tax rate of 15% equals 19 Billion Gov't dollars exclusively for Toronto

Let's Do This!

The point is, however, that money is being sent to Toronto, and won't any more if Toronto were to secede - whether you earned the right to direct it or not is beside the point. You will lose your place as the primary control point of a G-8 economy, and instead be a city-state wedged between two giants (well, one giant and another large-ish economy - you get the idea). One big reason Canada's big cities became what they are is readily available natural resources - not in your city-state. And what about NAFTA? What does Toronto bring to the table that would gain it entry into NAFTA?

Toronto seceeding would probably be the best thing that ever happened to Montreal, Calgary and Vancouver - but the worst thing that ever happened to Toronto. Classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

G-8 no G-8 - It doesn't make a different we bleed cash big time to the higher levels of Gov't. You are correct, that Toronto has no natural resources within our boundaries, however we do have the best resource of all time, and that is our people. Some of the best people business can find, and a try definer of our long term success as a city. As for cash leaving Toronto because we would no longer be in Canada..what do you think? Toronto has no cash of it's own. Most of the richest people and investment institutions are based in Toronto. However, this way Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary would all get thier chance to shine, and Toronto would get it's 8 Billion dollars back to invest in this city as we see fit. No more begging the feds to fix park benchs or build new subways. We have 2.5 million of some of the best educated people on earth. With global ties and investment infastructure second to none in the world. We of course would suceed and with the additional gov't money in hand we could create the incentives required to draw new international businesses to Toronto on top of developing our own domestic industries. We still are the centre of the most powerful industrial-economic region in Canada with a total GDP reaching 400 billion dollars and 8 million people.

Trust me, Canada or no Canada we would do ok.

:)

[shreddog]

Caltrane, personally I think you're just having a piss with everyone here, but none the less, "you go girl"!

Anyway, where are you getting this 8 Billion dollar from? The only credible calculation I have ever seen done on the federal-municipal deficit wrt Toronto was done by the Toronto Board of Trade using 2004/5 numbers, and they only came up with a number of 6.6 Billion using very specuous interpretations at best. The BOT has since said the imbalance has actually decreased, so I am curious as to where 8B comes from?

Anyway, kids, back to your regularly scheduled programming!

PS. I agree with the earlier comment that anyone who serious believes in this should be lumped in with the whacko seperatists from Alberta, N. Ontario, Vancouver island, the Canadian Arrow crew in the X-prize and the Make-belief Stanley cup parade coordinator into the "AIN'T EVER GONNA HAPPEN" club.

(Sorry, that wasn't fair to the Arrow astronauts)
http://www.canadianarrow.com/astronauts-sm.jpg

[caltrane74]

Caltrane, personally I think you're just having a piss with everyone here, but none the less, "you go girl"!

Anyway, where are you getting this 8 Billion dollar from? The only credible calculation I have ever seen done on the federal-municipal deficit wrt Toronto was done by the Toronto Board of Trade using 2004/5 numbers, and they only came up with a number of 6.6 Billion using very specuous interpretations at best. The BOT has since said the imbalance has actually decreased, so I am curious as to where 8B comes from?

Anyway, kids, back to your regularly scheduled programming!

PS. I agree with the earlier comment that anyone who serious believes in this should be lumped in with the whacko seperatists from Alberta, N. Ontario, Vancouver island, the Canadian Arrow crew in the X-prize and the Make-belief Stanley cup parade coordinator into the "AIN'T EVER GONNA HAPPEN" club.

(Sorry, that wasn't fair to the Arrow astronauts)
http://www.canadianarrow.com/astronauts-sm.jpg

I'm cool with everything you just said....except the "you go girl" thing.

I'm a manly man, I like to crack skulls und' shit. - I ain't gay.
_________________________
Feds - $7 Billion ( ie. 6.6 billion to pick bones )
Province - $1 Billion

Total ______________

$ 8 Billion.

[vid]

I'm a manly man, I like to crack skulls und' shit. - I ain't gay.

"I ain't no bisexual! I'm a man's man!"
"It's too late! I've planted the seed of doubt!"

ATHF Frat Aliens episode. Probably the best 15 minutes of TV ever.

[shreddog]

I'm cool with everything you just said....except the "you go girl" thing.

I'm a manly man, I like to crack skulls und' shit. - I ain't gay.

;) Don't worry, I wasn't trying to imply anything. Having read many of your posts, I know you ooze testosterone!

[caltrane74]

vid, isn't there some iceflow you need to be catchin' right about now?

:P


;) Don't worry, I wasn't trying to imply anything. Having read many of your posts, I know you ooze testosterone!

It's all good! no worries.

[Bassic Lab]

130 Billion Dollars at a nominal tax rate of 15% equals 19 Billion Gov't dollars exclusively for Toronto

Let's Do This!



G-8 no G-8 - It doesn't make a different we bleed cash big time to the higher levels of Gov't. You are correct, that Toronto has no natural resources within our boundaries, however we do have the best resource of all time, and that is our people. Some of the best people business can find, and a try definer of our long term success as a city. As for cash leaving Toronto because we would no longer be in Canada..what do you think? Toronto has no cash of it's own. Most of the richest people and investment institutions are based in Toronto. However, this way Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary would all get thier chance to shine, and Toronto would get it's 8 Billion dollars back to invest in this city as we see fit. No more begging the feds to fix park benchs or build new subways. We have 2.5 million of some of the best educated people on earth. With global ties and investment infastructure second to none in the world. We of course would suceed and with the additional gov't money in hand we could create the incentives required to draw new international businesses to Toronto on top of developing our own domestic industries. We still are the centre of the most powerful industrial-economic region in Canada with a total GDP reaching 400 billion dollars and 8 million people.

Trust me, Canada or no Canada we would do ok.

:)

What you've been missing is that there would be no 8 billion. The economies of both the newly independent Toronto and Canada would be devastated. There would be no money for any one to throw around. Then as the economies recovered, financial services, that were in Toronto, would develop in Canada to exploit Canadian resources, which Toronto doesn't have.

The point of comparisons to Cleveland and Buffalo was not to say that Toronto is any thing like them today, it is to say that Toronto escaped the same fate that they suffered through being the centre of Canada.

Toronto seceding makes less sense than Alberta doing so. It would be as if Calgary seceded from Canada to keep all its money. We all know Canada and Alberta would put up barriers to preclude it from being the financial centre of the energy industry, the next day Edmonton would have hundreds of businesses and hundreds of thousands of people trying to move in.

[caltrane74]

What you've been missing is that there would be no 8 billion. The economies of both the newly independent Toronto and Canada would be devastated. There would be no money for any one to throw around. Then as the economies recovered, financial services, that were in Toronto, would develop in Canada to exploit Canadian resources, which Toronto doesn't have.

The point of comparisons to Cleveland and Buffalo was not to say that Toronto is any thing like them today, it is to say that Toronto escaped the same fate that they suffered through being the centre of Canada.

Toronto seceding makes less sense than Alberta doing so. It would be as if Calgary seceded from Canada to keep all its money. We all know Canada and Alberta would put up barriers to preclude it from being the financial centre of the energy industry, the next day Edmonton would have hundreds of businesses and hundreds of thousands of people trying to move in.

Your missing my point!

Which is: Toronto's key asset is it's people. Always has been, always will be. Canada didn't just decide to make Toronto the business centre for no god given reason. The reason we are #1 is because of the talent pool that resides here. Take away Canada and I'm sure we would find some other use for our talents in the financial services, legal, communications industries, etc etc. Our people their knowledge and technology go nowhere if Toronto becomes a city state. We just thrive in a pure business enviroment with less interference from higher levels of govn't. And of course we get our 8 Billion dollars back to invest in bringing new businesses into town.

[jeremy_haak]

Your missing my point!

Which is: Toronto's key asset is it's people. Always has been, always will be. Canada didn't just decide to make Toronto the business centre for no god given reason. The reason we are #1 is because of the talent pool that resides here. Take away Canada and I'm sure we would find some other use for our talents in the financial services, legal, communications industries, etc etc. Our people their knowledge and technology go nowhere if Toronto becomes a city state. We just thrive in a pure business enviroment with less interference from higher levels of govn't. And of course we get our 8 Billion dollars back to invest in bringing new businesses into town.

But people went to Toronto for a reason. You can't guarantee that they would stay after it split from Canada.

[caltrane74]

But people went to Toronto for a reason. You can't guarantee that they would stay after it split from Canada.

True, some might go to Calgary, Vancouver or Montreal.

However Toronto has always been a magnet for the global immigrant, I'm sure whatever we'd lose, we gain back, we pump out 100,000 new jobs a year for goodness sakes!. I'm sure if we seperated this would still be the case, and we would find the people to replace the ones that left.

[HAMRetrofit]

Whatever we bled out to the rest of the country we would open the flood gates for international immigrants. We could lower all tariffs on international imports and exports. We could liberalize free trade and international finances within the city-state to attract more global banking. We could invest in our own infrastructure instead of competing with underpopulated areas of the country for funding.

[vid]

Aw, fuck it. You just don't get it.

[caltrane74]

haha

WE WIN!!

:)

Just say uncle bitch. you know you wanna!!

(Oh man, I'm having too much fun with this thread, and have completely wasted another workday at SSP.com)

[Ayreonaut]

See caltrane, that's why you're always at work at 3 in the morning (unless that's 401_King).

[wild wild west]

HAMRetrofit:All large cities in Canada compete with the so-called underpopulated areas of the country for funding. Conversely, the "underpopulated" hinterland provides the big cities with migrants, resources and customers/buyers of their services. It's a symbiotic relationship, not as simple as looking at a balance sheet and saying "we pay this much more than we get back in services, therefore we would be better off on our own".

And this "our greatest asset is our people" thing - the same thing would apply somewhat evenly to any big city in the developed world. And if you want to get technical about it, the Canadian big city with the most educated workforce is, I believe, Ottawa.