[plinko]

*I took this photo a couple of weeks ago at DFW*
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/plinko923/ORLANDO/080306-0307DALLAS426.jpg

I didn't hear about Aloha as well. That sucks!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-ata4apr04

ATA Airlines files for bankruptcy protection
The low-fare carrier grounds all flights in its Chapter 11 filing, stranding thousands of passengers. It's the second airline this week to stop passenger service.

By Peter Pae, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
April 3, 2008

Flying to Hawaii may get more expensive for Southern California travelers.

Low-fare carrier ATA Airlines Inc. said today it has filed for Bankruptcy Court protection, grounding all flights as it halted operations. Thousands of passengers were stranded at Los Angeles International Airport and other terminals.

The Indianapolis-based airline became the second U.S. carrier this week to end passenger service. On Monday, Aloha Airlines ended passenger service, grounding the only carrier offering nonstop flights from Orange County to Hawaii.

Joe Brancatelli, a business travel consultant, said that the loss of ATA service coupled with the closure of Aloha Airlines "is going to create a real crisis" in the availability of flight options for travel to and from Hawaii in the upcoming months.

ATA operated 44 flights a day, including eight at Oakland Airport and three at LAX, two of which flew to Honolulu and the other to Kahului.

"We deeply regret the disruption and hardship caused by the sudden shutdown of ATA, an outcome we and our employees had worked very hard and made many sacrifices to avoid," said Doug Yakola, the airlines chief operating officer said in a statement.

The company said it filed for bankruptcy protection late Wednesday.

But while the latest bankruptcy filings are likely to impact flights to Hawaii, it is not expected to be a harbinger of any broader airline woes. Though the industry is likely to post a loss this year, most carriers are expected to survive the high fuel costs and a slump in air travel with the slowing economy.

"Our conclusion is that the network carriers and most of the low-cost carriers will survive the weak economic environment and high fuel prices over the next two years," Ray Neidle, an airlines analyst for Calyon Securities, said in a report to investors.

For its part, ATA said in a statement that it was forced to ground operations because it lost a key military charter contract. In addition to scheduled airline service, ATA also provided charter service for the Pentagon.

The airline said its operations had depended on revenue generated from its military business to offset a "tremendous spike" in prices for jet fuel.

ATA said passengers should seek alternative travel arrangements on their own. Those who paid by credit card should call their credit-card provider to seek refunds. Those who paid by cash may be able to recover some of the cash by submitting a claim with the bankruptcy court.

Southwest Airlines said its passengers, who purchased ATA tickets through the airlines code-share arrangement, can rebook or receive a refund.

peter.pae@latimes.com

[Buckeye Native 001]

Uh-oh...my parents planned to fly to Hawaii in October using ATA via Southwest...

[aaron38]

The way ATA suspended all operations without notice to anyone stinks to high heaven. If losing the military contract was what did them in, then they've known about this for a while. They had plenty of time to file for Chapter 11 but keep flying, or to inform employees, and shut down in a controlled manner.

I really have to wonder about the timing between the ATA shutdown, and the FAA whistleblowers. I've seen articles that point to major problems at other airlines that have not yet been named, and ATA doesn't fly a young fleet.

If ATA was about to be hit with fines, and have planes grounded for maintainance issues, then it's less surprising that the CEO would take his ball and go home.

I don't know what else would explain it...

[Dac150]

I heard it on the radio this afternoon and I couldn't believe what I was hearing. One reason is that there was no notice of this in any way shape or form. This just came out of the blue. For them to come out with this when they did is skeptical in its own sense, but the fact that they abandoned their passengers is an outrage.

I have no doubt that this was known, whether it was day in advance or a week. It is not normal for a company in any industry to file chapter 11 in a split second, as it was presented in the media.

Regardless of what comes out of this, I can only hope some sort of penalty is given to ATA for pulling the stunt that they did by grounding all flights like everyone in the World vanished.

I'm very curious to see what additional information comes out of this.

[Justin10000]

Wow.

Jetsgo all over again..

[Nowhereman1280]

This is what happens when you expect an industry to deal with unionize labor and rising fuel costs, and then slap them will all sorts of new government regulations. Then on top of that you suddenly decide that half of their planes are unsafe that they need to fix them. All while demanding that they not pass the costs on to the consumer.

This is just another case of economic karma, there is only so much you can force an industry to do before people just start uping and leaving the marketplace. ATA, Aloha. and Attilies, all faced major setbacks this week and all failed. I'm sure this pattern will only continue until something gives. This means either A. the government needs to stop will all these ridiculous regulations B. The unions need to disappear or C. fuel prices go back down.

There will be no major carriers left as long as their labor force stays unionized. The budget carriers all use non-unionized labor and there is no way to compete with that when you have to use a union.

[Policy Wonk]

I hate unions, but Southwest is among the most highly unionized airlines anywhere - while Delta is the least unionized of those with any union membership.

ATA just looks like a business that was too highly dependent on a single customer and couldn't keep the lights on without them.

[roadwarrior]

This is one industry that really should be government run as it is not a viable long-term business venture. Deregulation was not a good thing for airlines. If we had this free market system in the rail industry, we would not have Amtrak. They also continuously lose money and if it were not for government subsidy, would not be in business.

[initiald]

So Aloha and ATA bite the dust, who is next? I'm betting Allegiant Air. I think Air Tran and Skybus are safe for the foreseeable future, and I think we will see more airlines in the U.S. in the future using the Skybus/Ryan Air business model rather than the Southwest "legacy in a budget's clothing" style.

Next up is John Weikle's new airline called "Jet America" who we could see start service sometime in 2009.

[Daquan13]

Aloha didn't go out completely. They will remain on line, but only as a freight / cargo carrier, so I've heard.

The DC-10 pictured at the top of this page somehow looks like an ex-Northwest Airlines plane. Could it be the gray in the middle and the dark blue strip under that?

[GioFX]

^ yeah, it's an ex-NWA DC-10.

[Daquan13]

Thought so. My razor-sharp mind noticed that right away!

Yeah, if you notice closely, a slightly darker shade of gray paint was used to hide the spot where the NORTHWEST name was.

[seaskyfan]

This is what happens when you expect an industry to deal with unionize labor and rising fuel costs, and then slap them will all sorts of new government regulations. Then on top of that you suddenly decide that half of their planes are unsafe that they need to fix them. All while demanding that they not pass the costs on to the consumer.

This is just another case of economic karma, there is only so much you can force an industry to do before people just start uping and leaving the marketplace. ATA, Aloha. and Attilies, all faced major setbacks this week and all failed. I'm sure this pattern will only continue until something gives. This means either A. the government needs to stop will all these ridiculous regulations B. The unions need to disappear or C. fuel prices go back down.

There will be no major carriers left as long as their labor force stays unionized. The budget carriers all use non-unionized labor and there is no way to compete with that when you have to use a union.

ATA was a budget carrier. It seems that by having a budget carrier leave the market you are creating more opportunities for existing carriers to charge more per seat.

I don't think sacrificing safety regulations is in the long term interest of either passengers or the airline industry.

[Policy Wonk]

If we had this free market system in the rail industry, we would not have Amtrak. They also continuously lose money and if it were not for government subsidy.

If Amtrak were opperating at the appropriate scope and discontinued service to routes that haven't made a dime since the 1950's they wouldn't need the subsudies.

[Avian001]

The country's largest dedicated charter airline (and the NBA's charter), Champion Air (http://www.championair.com/) is also shutting down on May 31st. (http://www.startribune.com/business/17162021.html)

[Steely Dan]

did ATA have a large amount of operations at any airports? or another way of phrasing, will this abrupt shut-down put a significant dent to any airport's activity.

i know ATA had some activity out of midway here in chicago but i think their operations were quite tiny compared to southwest and air tran (the two big carriers at midway)

[Daquan13]

did ATA have a large amount of operations at any airports? or another way of phrasing, will this abrupt shut-down put a significant dent to any airport's activity.

i know ATA had some activity out of midway here in chicago but i think their operations were quite tiny compared to southwest and air tran (the two big carriers at midway)



They at one time, also operated in and out of Boston.

Champion Air. Hmmm, never heard of them. Who is next? Looks like the high cost of fuel has grounded these carriers.

[Gordo]

This is one industry that really should be government run as it is not a viable long-term business venture. Deregulation was not a good thing for airlines. If we had this free market system in the rail industry, we would not have Amtrak. They also continuously lose money and if it were not for government subsidy, would not be in business.

What? Deregulation has been incredible for consumers - except for those in very small markets. All airlines don't continuously lose money - mostly just those that have been around since the time of regulation. The industry is simply one with over-capacity, which seems to be solving itself as we speak.

The trains analogy doesn't work. If we had the same situation with trains - where massive government expenditures were used to build tracks and stations (as they are to build airports and the infrastructure around airports)and then had private companies operating the trains (simply paying a usage charge on the tracks and stations, perhaps with fees passed along to the consumer) with complete decision-making ability on which routes should be serviced - train travel would have MANY more options than just Amtrak between major cities and on useful routes.

[roadwarrior]

What? Deregulation has been incredible for consumers - except for those in very small markets. All airlines don't continuously lose money - mostly just those that have been around since the time of regulation. The industry is simply one with over-capacity, which seems to be solving itself as we speak.

The trains analogy doesn't work. If we had the same situation with trains - where massive government expenditures were used to build tracks and stations (as they are to build airports and the infrastructure around airports)and then had private companies operating the trains (simply paying a usage charge on the tracks and stations, perhaps with fees passed along to the consumer) with complete decision-making ability on which routes should be serviced - train travel would have MANY more options than just Amtrak between major cities and on useful routes.

I do agree that it would be nice to have other options than Amtrak and more government emphasis (one can hope that this occurs as flying becomes a less viable option). However, that doesn't change my overall argument. Deregulation worked under a certain business model, where fuel was priced around $20-30 per gallon. It is becoming less of a real option as our fuel prices rise above $100/gallon and we see airlines either merge or go out of business, which in both cases does not serve the consumer. What are we going to do? Are we going to let the airlines scale back to a point where no carriers serve many smaller markets and in these larger markets, capacity is so tight that people often can't get tickets? Are we going to let the free market reign to a point where common people can no longer afford to fly on airplanes? Neither of these are viable options. As this country is so spread out and our rail structure is so underdeveloped, air travel is the only real option for many. When this no longer becomes feasible (as we are trending towards), this is an area for the government to step back in. I'm not a fan of government privatization for most aspects of our lives, but when it comes to a few select areas (such as utilities and transportation), I'm a firm advocate of government intervention.

[Nowhereman1280]

That makes no sense, no small markets are at risk of being under served. Notice how none of the regional small airlines (Midwest Connect, for example, is wildly profitable right now) that do small-city jump flights are in trouble. Those are mainly supported by commercial and industrial executives who need to get to all these local areas to check out their distributors, factories, and scope out new business opportunities. That sector will never go under. They sure as hell don't want to land in Milwaukee and then drive 3 hours to scope out some paper plant in Northern Wisconsin. There will always be a demand for daily flights into small markets like Outagamie County Airport or Cheyenne Wy.

This is one industry that really should be government run as it is not a viable long-term business venture. Deregulation was not a good thing for airlines. If we had this free market system in the rail industry, we would not have Amtrak. They also continuously lose money and if it were not for government subsidy, would not be in business.

I don't think you know the history of the creation of Amtrak. Amtrak was created because all the major passenger railways were in hard times and wanted to dump the majority of their service. So, instead of just letting the companies do their thing and adjust according to the economy, thus becoming much more efficiant, the government created clumsy Amtrak which as been bleeding money ever since.

If you haven't noticed, small airports have been expanding rapidly since the deregulation of the airlines and prices for tickets, though up as of late, have dropped dramatically. 20 years ago there would have been no way that I could fly from Milwaukee to Denver and back for $212 on Midwest (a luxury airline) during peak ski season. It would have cost 300, 400+ dollars.

[BnaBreaker]

That's too bad. In my opinion, ATA and Aloha were among the best US based airlines in customer service and pricing.

[WonderlandPark]

Deregulation worked under a certain business model, where fuel was priced around $20-30 per gallon. It is becoming less of a real option as our fuel prices rise above $100/gallon and we see airlines either merge or go out ....

Well, fuel is expensive, but even at $30 a GALLON the world economy would collapse, say nothing of $100/GALLON. We would not be here now at those prices, 90% of the world would have starved to death years ago.

[Brandon716]

Some people like to simplify things too easily. Its all unions or government regulation. LOL

If it were that easy we could predict just about anything.

ATA did a disservice to its customers and its employees by not announcing problems weeks in advance.

But what's new in corporate America? There is no such thing as corporate responsibility anymore.

[Brandon716]

That's too bad. In my opinion, ATA and Aloha were among the best US based airlines in customer service and pricing.

Technically you could say their pricing was what did them in? ;)

[Dac150]

Technically you could say their pricing was what did them in? ;)

ATA was considered the 'cheap airline', and with what it costs to maintain an airline (in fuel alone), yeah, they just couldn't keep an inflated raft.

[vertex]

...I think Air Tran and Skybus are safe for the foreseeable future, and I think we will see more airlines in the U.S. in the future using the Skybus/Ryan Air business model rather than the Southwest "legacy in a budget's clothing" style.

Can you please define 'foreseeable future'? :shrug:

Skybus becomes third airline this week to close (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/04/04/airlines.bankruptcy/index.html)

[arkhitektor]

Oh, dear....:(

At this rate, by memorial day America will have no airlines left operating.

[Lakelander]

Can you please define 'foreseeable future'? :shrug:

Skybus becomes third airline this week to close (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/04/04/airlines.bankruptcy/index.html)

This blows.:hell: I purchased four tickets for Skybus flights this summer about a month ago for $508 total. I may have to end up driving from Florida to Upstate New York now if I can't find something in a similar price range.

[Gordo]

I do agree that it would be nice to have other options than Amtrak and more government emphasis (one can hope that this occurs as flying becomes a less viable option). However, that doesn't change my overall argument. Deregulation worked under a certain business model, where fuel was priced around $20-30 per gallon. It is becoming less of a real option as our fuel prices rise above $100/gallon and we see airlines either merge or go out of business, which in both cases does not serve the consumer. What are we going to do? Are we going to let the airlines scale back to a point where no carriers serve many smaller markets and in these larger markets, capacity is so tight that people often can't get tickets? Are we going to let the free market reign to a point where common people can no longer afford to fly on airplanes? Neither of these are viable options. As this country is so spread out and our rail structure is so underdeveloped, air travel is the only real option for many. When this no longer becomes feasible (as we are trending towards), this is an area for the government to step back in. I'm not a fan of government privatization for most aspects of our lives, but when it comes to a few select areas (such as utilities and transportation), I'm a firm advocate of government intervention.

If airlines scale back and fares increase (the government has done plenty to insure this doesn't happen - several airlines should have been liquidated several times in previous bankruptcies if not for direct government intervention - the "free market" hasn't really been let loose), support for projects such as high-speed rail will increase.

Government is best served maintaining networks and other infrastructure - and private entities should maintain the rest (similar to the situation in the UK). In the US, government does this with air travel and roads, but not with train travel. There is no indication that air travel is going to get incredibly more expensive any time soon - yes, some airlines have failed recently, but new ones have also recently started.

[AaronPGH]

Skybust just bit the dust today as well:

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2008/04/04/skybust.html

[Nowhereman1280]

If airlines scale back and fares increase (the government has done plenty to insure this doesn't happen - several airlines should have been liquidated several times in previous bankruptcies if not for direct government intervention - the "free market" hasn't really been let loose), support for projects such as high-speed rail will increase.


Exactly! If they keep trying to prevent the natural pruning caused by economic recessions then weak airlines are allowed to continue to exist and the strong ones' growth is stunted as the crappy airlines steal costumers during the good times.

For example, if a major airline went belly up, there would be A LOT of room out there for a company like Midwest Airlines that is owned by a hedgefund with an ass ton of money to come in and do a massive expansion feeding off of the old airlines cheap assets. Thus the good airlines which ranks number 1 or 2 in all customer service surveys would be allowed to grow into one of the larger ones instead of the shitty airlines continuing to dominate.

[MAH4546]

Exactly! If they keep trying to prevent the natural pruning caused by economic recessions then weak airlines are allowed to continue to exist and the strong ones' growth is stunted as the crappy airlines steal costumers during the good times.

For example, if a major airline went belly up, there would be A LOT of room out there for a company like Midwest Airlines that is owned by a hedgefund with an ass ton of money to come in and do a massive expansion feeding off of the old airlines cheap assets. Thus the good airlines which ranks number 1 or 2 in all customer service surveys would be allowed to grow into one of the larger ones instead of the shitty airlines continuing to dominate.

That post is hysterical.

I hope you understand that, hedge fund or not, Midwest is one of the weak airlines.

[BnaBreaker]

Technically you could say their pricing was what did them in? ;)

haha, actually you're probably not too far off. One time, ATA gave me a full round-trip refund because I missed a connecting flight due to a storm. lol

[unusualfire]

^ Don't talk like that. The next thing that might happen is we don't get any extras after getting bumped from a full flight. I'm willing to bet they will cut the free addition flight out all together. I'm surprised they haven't fixed overbooking after all these years.

[Daquan13]

ATA was considered the 'cheap airline', and with what it costs to maintain an airline (in fuel alone), yeah, they just couldn't keep an inflated raft.



I've never flown with them. To me, they just weren't around long enough for me to consider them worthy enough or safe enough to fly with.

In the past as well as even today, low-cost carriers will offer dirt-cheap no-frills reservations on their flights, but in reality, their safety record is often compromised because it seems that they are not keeping their planes up to snuff.

This happened with Valujet (now Airtran), and most recently, Southwest. I've flown only with the big guys like Delta, United, USAirways and American.:notacrook:

[initiald]

Wow, I could not have been more wrong: Skybus shut down today. No warning what so ever! Eh, looks like I won't be visiting Chicago this summer...

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080405/skybus_shutdown.html?.v=2

Speaking about airlines: is it just my perception, or are Asian carriers so much better than U.S. carriers? Cathay Pacific, Singapore, Emerites always seem to be the best rated. Budget airlines are cheap and actually last longer than a year, such as Jet Star Asia, Air Asia, etc. Heck, even when I flew United; their planes in the U.S. were run down and crappy, but the 777 between Tokyo and Hong Kong was the newest and nicest I've been on.

[DallasTexan]

Well, this means doom for ATA's old L-1011's :(

[initiald]

Well, this means doom for ATA's old L-1011's :(

I don't know, maybe Air Rum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rum) would like to expand their ell ten eleven fleet.

[BTinSF]

Can you please define 'foreseeable future'? :shrug:

Skybus becomes third airline this week to close (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/04/04/airlines.bankruptcy/index.html)

Hmm. Marketwatch says Skybus is the 4th, not 3rd.


Skybus becomes latest airline to shut down
By Amy Hoak, MarketWatch
Last update: 12:08 p.m. EDT April 5, 2008

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- Skybus Airlines announced it was shutting down Saturday, with the low-cost airline blaming the "insurmountable" pressures of rising jet fuel costs and a slowing economic environment.

Columbus, Ohio-based Skybus became the fourth airline this week to close or announce plans to do so.

"We deeply regret the impact this decision will have on our employees and their families, customers, vendors, suppliers, airport officials and others in the cities in which we have operated," the company said on its Web site.

"Our financial condition is such that our Board of Directors felt it had no choice but to cease operations."

Passengers with reservations for flights on Skybus scheduled to depart Saturday or later were advised to contact their credit card companies to apply for a refund, the company said. Customers can also check skybus.com for updates as they become available. See Skybus's Web site.
Both JetBlue Airways (JBLU) and US Airways (LCC) are both offering to help Skybus customers in need of alternate accommodations with special $50 standby fares.

Skybus made 74 daily flights to 15 U.S. cites, and offered some $10 flights.
The closely held company plans to file for bankruptcy protection next week, according to a Wall Street Journal report.

The shut-down came without warning Friday night. About 450 workers were affected, in addition to the travelers who held tickets for future flights, the report said.

Skybus marks the latest airline shut down in a string of carrier failures announced this week. Aloha Airlines halted operations Monday, and ATA Airlines shut down Thursday. Both have also applied for bankruptcy protection.

Also, charter airline Champion Air announced this week it would cease flight operations on May 31. End of Story

Source: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/skybus-becomes-latest-airline-shut/story.aspx?guid=%7bA7CFE32B-59FC-40FC-B58E-54EE5979365F%7d&siteid=yahoomy&print=true&dist=printTop

[Daquan13]

Another one bites the dust!

[hoosier]

If Amtrak were opperating at the appropriate scope and discontinued service to routes that haven't made a dime since the 1950's they wouldn't need the subsudies.

If the government upgraded tracks to handle high hspeed rail and stopped putting hundreds of billions into airport and roadway expansion, Amtrak would be doing quite well financially and people would use it.

[Lexy]

If the government upgraded tracks to handle high hspeed rail and stopped putting hundreds of billions into airport and roadway expansion, Amtrak would be doing quite well financially and people would use it.

The government puts the money where the people are because that is what the people choose to use. Rail will never be a major means of travel in this country again unfortunatly. The days of it are long gone while air travel will continue to be the way to go.

If I may, i'd like to offer up my own personal tribute to ATA with a couple shots from here in Nashville.


ATA Airlines Boeing 757-23N (N517AT)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/2366961747_e3f6856b3d_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3194/2367017633_4688c5bc40_o.jpg

[Nowhereman1280]

That post is hysterical.

I hope you understand that, hedge fund or not, Midwest is one of the weak airlines.

???

How is one of the few airlines that never went bankrupt and has been profitable for the past 12 quarters straight while gaining market share the whole time "weak"? Last time I checked most major airlines are a mess while Midwest continues to grow.

The only reason they were a target for AirTran's takeover is that they were just the right size and location for Airtran to get more planes and gates, it was not because they were weak, only because they were small.

[glowrock]

Every single airline is facing the same issues right now, that being ever-increasing fuel costs along with an inability to raise fares to levels that allow them to be profitable. People want cheaper all the time, but they refuse to acknowledge that airlines cost a hell of a lot of money to operate, especially with sky-high fuel costs.

My bet is that several more airlines will fold in the next few months, leaving only a few of the huge legacy carriers and a couple of smaller carriers left. Essentially, deregulation will become re-regulation due to lack of competition.

As for the Asian airlines, I wonder how heavily the governments of the respective nation's major carriers subsidize them?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[jamesinclair]

A recent article I saw said 5 us airlines closed this week

ATA, Aloha, Skybus, a charter line and another airline I hadnt heard of