[realcity]

Perhaps I'm being too sensitive but the name of the body of water beyond the Skyway Bridge should be called 'Hamilton Harbour'. I'm not sure exactly when but a some point in recent history it started being called Burlington Bay. I've heard the CBC call it that and even read the Spectator once refer to it as Burlington Bay.

I'd also like the word 'Burlington' removed from the Skyway Bridge name. The sign reads, "James N Allen Skyway Bridge". If a city is going to be attached to the name of the bridge I think it should be Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

it's what Burlington and the GTA always do - attach their name to something that isn't theirs.
Burlington has done jack squat throughout history yet tries to take credit for the RBG, Skyway Bridge, Hamilton Harbour etc.... just keep building your lame sprawl and highways and big box stores.
The real city-building has been done by Hamilton. Just be thankful we don't charge tolls to get into our city or you'd have no choice but to spend the rest of your lives wandering malls and box store parking lots.

[realcity]

I agree. I forgot about RBG. 70% of the RBG is in Hamilton. We just have such low self-esteem that we don't fight over these names, Burlington Bay, Burlington Skyway, Burlington RBG, next Burlington McMaster University.


this is funny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington_Skyway_Bridge
someone is on a mission to make sure the name "Burlington" is on the bridge. Trying to keep a big blob of noplace on the map I suppose. Or maybe they think it gives Burlington some character.

[realcity]

Don't forget the "Burlington Center for Inland Waters" that is located off Eastport drive in the heart of Hamilton's industry.

I can remember first hearing about the Federal Institution called the "Centre for Inland Waters" being located in Burlington. I remember wondering "where in Burlington is that?" When I finally realized where it was, I was wondering why the heck say it's in Burlington? The entire country has far more awareness of Hamilton then Burlington, wouldn't it help to identify where it's located if they said "in Hamilton"? besides it's more in Hamilton then Burlington.

[realcity]

Another good one is... Eastgate Square in "Stoney Creek".... The Creek's actual border lies two blocks east of Centennial.

[beanmedic]

I remember hearing that if you want to build a dock in the water behind your lakefront house in burlington you need a city of hamilton permit. That should settle it, if it's true.

[beanmedic]

Somebody needs to fix this wikipedia garbage

[hamiltonguy]

Another good one is... Eastgate Square in "Stoney Creek".... The Creek's actual border lies two blocks east of Centennial.

Actually the southeast corner of Eastgate is in Stoney Creek.

Stoney Creek's Border is just West of Centennial to just north of Queenston where it jogs east two blocks as you say.

It's quite funny looking at the Map seeing just less than a quarter of East Gate being in Stoney Creek.

[the dude]

ya, the harbour's waters are entirely within the city of hamilton. incidentally, i prefer hamilton bay. the first settlers to the area thought lake geneva suited it better.

[raisethehammer]

[QUOTE=realcity;3464069]I agree. I forgot about RBG. 70% of the RBG is in Hamilton. We just have such low self-esteem that we don't fight over these names, Burlington Bay, Burlington Skyway, Burlington RBG, next Burlington McMaster University.


actually, you've got it backwards...we don't need to fight over stuff like this because we KNOW who built the RBG, Skyway and whose city the harbour is.
Burlington has no image or self-esteem and the best things about their region happen to be ours!

[raisethehammer]

one more thing...city of Hamilton OWNS LaSalle Park and boat launch. Aldershot was always supposed to be a part of Hamilton until the TO-centric government in the 70's pried it away from us.

[HAMRetrofit]

I have never heard of Burlington Bay before.

[realcity]

Actually the southeast corner of Eastgate is in Stoney Creek.

Stoney Creek's Border is just West of Centennial to just north of Queenston where it jogs east two blocks as you say.

It's quite funny looking at the Map seeing just less than a quarter of East Gate being in Stoney Creek.

that's incorrect. Stoney Creek is 662 and 664 exchanges the Centennial corridor is 578

The (old) border extends down Highway 20 until King street then heads east to Lake Ave north to Barton then East yet again all the way to Gray Road (which by the way the morons in SC call "Grays") then north to the Lake.

Those apartment complexes at Lake and Barton area were under the old Hamilton Housing Authority. There was a citizen uproar from the east side residents of Lake Avenue Road (the Stoney Creek) because Hamilton was building 'geared to income' high-rises on the very fringe of the City of Hamilton.

[RePinion]

Burlington Bay is the harbour's original name. It is not simply a case of Burlington having staked claim to the name. I believe it remains the "official" name, but Transportation Canada documents cite both "Hamilton Harbour" and "Burlington Bay", suggesting that either is acceptable.

This map is a plan of the city docks from 1836:

http://www.halinet.on.ca/GreatLakes/Documents/Brookes/p01MapOfBurlingtonBays.jpg

[hamiltonguy]

that's incorrect. Stoney Creek is 662 and 664 exchanges the Centennial corridor is 578

The (old) border extends down Highway 20 until King street then heads east to Lake Ave north to Barton then East yet again all the way to Gray Road (which by the way the morons in SC call "Grays") then north to the Lake.

Those apartment complexes at Lake and Barton area were under the old Hamilton Housing Authority. There was a citizen uproar from the east side residents of Lake Avenue Road (the Stoney Creek) because Hamilton was building 'geared to income' high-rises on the very fringe of the City of Hamilton.

This may be where the telephone exchanges are, but they don't always follow official boundaries.

Lake and Barton are not on the boundary. I will now consult every map I have made by the City of Hamilton (Cycling Maps and HSR Maps).

The Boundary runs along the East Side of Centennial to King.

It travels West along the North Side of King to a line that would include Cromwell Cr.'s North-South Portion.

It Travels North Down this line INCLUDING Cromwell Cr. until North of Queenston at a point corresponding to the Line of the Properties Facing Queenston from the North.

The Boundary runs East, including in Stoney Creek the properties facing Queenston on the North Side, until Grays Road.

The Boundary runs North including properties on both side of Grays in Stoney Creek until just South of Barton where both sides are in Hamilton.

Then at Barton the Boundary shifts back to Grays Road itself.

This is officially the Boundaries.

Now if we accept your logic, then the Historical Downtown of Stoney Creek lies right on the border with Hamilton.

[hamiltonguy]

Another note.

Raisethehammer claims that Aldershot was part of Hamilton.

This is not technically true.


In 1974, the Hamilton-Wentworth Region was created with six constituent municipalities. Flamborough Township was created as one of these by amalgamating East Flamborough, West Flamborough, Beverly and Waterdown. At the same time, a small portion of Beverly Township near the community of Clyde was ceded to North Dumfries Township in Waterloo Region and a more populous but smaller portion of East Flamborough near the community of Aldershot was ceded to Burlington in Halton Region.


This was not because of any Toronto-centric policy, but because at this time Flamborough was mostly rural, and the populated portion of Aldershot was closer to Burlington.

Also Burlington is a Hamilton suburb, not a Toronto suburb, so really this is nothing to do with Toronto, merely a minor boundary adjustment.

The argument over the RBG is because the main facilities are in Burlington, on Plains road, even though 70% of the land is in Hamilton.

However, I think it should still be called Hamilton's RBG because Burlington is a suburb of Hamilton, the main facilities are less than a Km from the Hamilton border, and, as already mentioned, 70% of the land is in Hamilton.

[RePinion]

Hard to say whether Burlington is really a suburb of Hamilton or of Toronto. Burlington is listed in Hamilton's CMA but it is also recognized as belonging to the Greater Toronto Area. It is evident that most Bulington residents have a focus towards Toronto rather than towards Hamilton nowadays - as most of the jobs which support Burlington's affluence are Toronto-based - so I am inclined to accept the constant affirmations of Burlingtonians that their city, while close, has "nothing to do with Hamilton" (God forbid haha).

[RePinion]

I agree that the RBG should be recognized as a Hamilton rather than Burlington institution though.

[SteelTown]

I know tons of people that live in Burlington but work in Hamilton (McMaster)

[Hammer Native]

Actually the southeast corner of Eastgate is in Stoney Creek.

Stoney Creek's Border is just West of Centennial to just north of Queenston where it jogs east two blocks as you say.

It's quite funny looking at the Map seeing just less than a quarter of East Gate being in Stoney Creek.

The first sentence is correct, I used to see that on some old maps. Then the boundary runs east approximately 1 block north of Queenston Road and stops about 1 block west of Gray's Road, then heads north to the lake. So streets like Lake Ave. North, Delawana Drive, and Gray's Rd. North a well as Confederation Park are all in the old city of Hamilton boundaries.

Also I remember a somewhat funny story from years ago. A bunch of car dealerships were having a massive sale on the Eastgate parking lot. They got a permit from the city of Hamilton, but not knowing a small southeast portion of the lot is in Stoney Creek, neglected to get a permit from them. The whole event was held up until they did.

The Hamilton Harbour boundary does go up to the Burlington shoreline and yes the property owners on the North Shore have to get a permit from Hamilton if they want to extend their docks. Years ago Burlington tried to get their boundary extended farther out but Hamilton didn't agree. (good).

When the Skyway was twinned in the late 1980's the Ontario government
renamed it James N. Allan (I think a former transportation minister, not 100% sure) and put Burlington Bay name on it to compensate them for the fact they don't have the harbour. (What a load of B.S.)

[Hammer Native]

Also another note. Hamilton contributes the majority of the tax money into the RBG.

[RePinion]

I know tons of people that live in Burlington but work in Hamilton (McMaster)

Sure, some of them do. But I think many more Burlingtonians are commuting into Toronto than into Hamilton.

[RePinion]

When the Skyway was twinned in the late 1980's the Ontario government renamed it James N. Allan (I think a former transportation minister, not 100% sure) and put Burlington Bay name on it to compensate them for the fact they don't have the harbour. (What a load of B.S.)

The Skyway was not named to flatter Burlington's ego. It was called the Burlington Bay James N. Allan Skyway because it runs along a strip of land which has always been known as Burlington Beach and along a body of water always called Burlington Bay (at least officially if not colloquially). James N. Allan was finance minister and I believe also minister of Highways. I think the bridge may have been named after Allan in recognition of his long service as Niagara Parks Commission Chairman.

[Hammer Native]

The Skyway was not named to flatter Burlington's ego. It was called the Burlington Bay James N. Allan Skyway because it runs along a strip of land which has always been known as Burlington Beach and along a body of water always called Burlington Bay (at least officially if not colloquially). James N. Allan was finance minister and I believe also minister of Highways. I think the bridge may have been named after Allan in recognition of his long service as Niagara Parks Commission Chairman.

That was the Ontario government's story back then as to why they were putting Burlington's name on it. Probably not the official reason. (like I said probably a load of B.S.)

[flar]

I think more Hamiltonians commute to Burlington than vice versa. It's still a Hamilton suburb. In Hamilton as in many other cities, both residential and employment has flowed to the suburbs where land is flat and cheap and serviced by important freeways (QEW).

Not all of Burlington's wealth comes from Toronto, either. Ron Joyce, Ron Foxcroft, Juergen Schachler (Dofasco CEO) and many big players in Hamilton live in Burlington. A lot of Burlingtonians are from Hamilton and think they've escaped. The area between Toronto and Hamilton increasingly sustains itself; the interconnections in the Golden Horseshoe just keep growing.

I think Hamilton and Hamiltonians should try claim more ownership of Burlington. We don't want a Mississauga situation where the suburb gets too big for its britches.

[HAMRetrofit]

Wealth is distributed throughout the entire Hamilton-Toronto Mega Region. Wherever the wealthy now reside, the origins of major economic activity stem from the old city centers, Toronto and Hamilton. The suburbs are just natural extensions of growth of these cities. Call Burlington or Mississauga whatever you want too but the fact that they are successful is reliant on spill off growth from the two original major cities.

[realcity]

The Skyway was not named to flatter Burlington's ego. It was called the Burlington Bay James N. Allan Skyway because it runs along a strip of land which has always been known as Burlington Beach and along a body of water always called Burlington Bay (at least officially if not colloquially). James N. Allan was finance minister and I believe also minister of Highways. I think the bridge may have been named after Allan in recognition of his long service as Niagara Parks Commission Chairman.

It also runs along a strip of land called Hamilton Beach Strip and Hamilton Harbour... yet no reference to Hamilton in the bridge's name. it's bs./

[ihateittoo]

I think the point is that Hamilton Harbour and Hamilton Beach Strip are less historic names for the area and probably came into common use in an unoficial manner. I see no problem with the "standard use" naming. RBG - on the other hand - I would like to annex for hamiltron.

[realcity]

map of the border of Hamilton and SC.... nothing but wasteland in SC

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/theshawsphotos/cities/Stoney-Creek-border.jpg?t=1207446613

this is according to who paid property taxes to which city before amalg. Eastgate is Hamilton.

[realcity]

and it's GRAY ROAD, not GRAYS....

interesting tho.... it might have to do with historical reference RED COATS = British (United Empire Loyalists) and the GRAY COATS or 'GRAYS' (AMERICANS) who were stopped by the British Red Coats at Battlefield Park in that area. Perhaps the GRAYS got as far as Gray Road.

Either way Stoney Creek sucks really bad... the downtown is about the size of town center of a town of 3,000. The biggest joke is their "City Hall" that was built in the middle of nowhere and even after amalg the 'New' City found it difficult to find use for a 'city hall' built in the middle of farm fields. Actually SC is a geography of nowhere. I remember when the moment they hit 50,000 population they petitioned the Province to be designated a "city" the minimum amount of people required for a city designation. Something Oakville still refuses to be called even though they have a population of 150,000 Oakville is still considered a "town". Must be a serious inferiority complex with SC. Try being a real city before your get the name designation.

[raisethehammer]

that's incorrect. Stoney Creek is 662 and 664 exchanges the Centennial corridor is 578

The (old) border extends down Highway 20 until King street then heads east to Lake Ave north to Barton then East yet again all the way to Gray Road (which by the way the morons in SC call "Grays") then north to the Lake.

Those apartment complexes at Lake and Barton area were under the old Hamilton Housing Authority. There was a citizen uproar from the east side residents of Lake Avenue Road (the Stoney Creek) because Hamilton was building 'geared to income' high-rises on the very fringe of the City of Hamilton.

yes, this is correct. Eastgate Square is in Hamilton. As is much of that neighbourhood NE of Eastgate. Including ALL of the highrises clumped together.

[raisethehammer]

Another note.

Raisethehammer claims that Aldershot was part of Hamilton.

This is not technically true.



This was not because of any Toronto-centric policy, but because at this time Flamborough was mostly rural, and the populated portion of Aldershot was closer to Burlington.

Also Burlington is a Hamilton suburb, not a Toronto suburb, so really this is nothing to do with Toronto, merely a minor boundary adjustment.

The argument over the RBG is because the main facilities are in Burlington, on Plains road, even though 70% of the land is in Hamilton.

However, I think it should still be called Hamilton's RBG because Burlington is a suburb of Hamilton, the main facilities are less than a Km from the Hamilton border, and, as already mentioned, 70% of the land is in Hamilton.


I didn't say it was part of Hamilton. It was supposed to be. Talk to politicians who were around back then and for many years it was assumed that when borders were redrawn Aldershot would be annexed to Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

Wealth is distributed throughout the entire Hamilton-Toronto Mega Region. Wherever the wealthy now reside, the origins of major economic activity stem from the old city centers, Toronto and Hamilton. The suburbs are just natural extensions of growth of these cities. Call Burlington or Mississauga whatever you want too but the fact that they are successful is reliant on spill off growth from the two original major cities.

exactly right. Hamilton's steel built all of those fancy homes on North Shore Blvd.

[the dude]

for those who don't know, here's how far outside of town stoner crick's town hall is. totally bizarre-o.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/stoneycreek.jpg

[Millstone]

and it's GRAY ROAD, not GRAYS....

interesting tho.... it might have to do with historical reference RED COATS = British (United Empire Loyalists) and the GRAY COATS or 'GRAYS' (AMERICANS) who were stopped by the British Red Coats at Battlefield Park in that area. Perhaps the GRAYS got as far as Gray Road.

Either way Stoney Creek sucks really bad... the downtown is about the size of town center of a town of 3,000. The biggest joke is their "City Hall" that was built in the middle of nowhere and even after amalg the 'New' City found it difficult to find use for a 'city hall' built in the middle of farm fields. Actually SC is a geography of nowhere. I remember when the moment they hit 50,000 population they petitioned the Province to be designated a "city" the minimum amount of people required for a city designation. Something Oakville still refuses to be called even though they have a population of 150,000 Oakville is still considered a "town". Must be a serious inferiority complex with SC. Try being a real city before your get the name designation.

Markham has 261k and is still a town too.

the City of Port Colborne has about 18k I think.

[Hammer Native]

I don't want to drag on the subject too much, but on the question of Gray's Road verses Gray Road it's actually both. The Hamilton section which starts just south of Barton and runs to the lake is Gray's Road. The Stoney Creek section to the foot of the mountain is Gray Road. It's just a case of the former two separate cities not agreeing on a common name. Last time I checked the street signs still said that. (that was several months ago mind you.) You would think since we have been amalgamated seven years now they could work that out.

Here's another confusing one. There's a sign on the west mountain "Stone Church Road West ends, Stone Church Road begins. (that being the new extension into the former Ancaster boundary.) Again since we're one city, I don't know why they couldn't have just called the whole thing Stone Church Road West and kept it simple. I think it was that in the first place and they went and changed it.

[realcity]

I took my car to a place off Gray Road north of Barton (the Hamilton section you're referring to) and every street sign said Gray Road, even in the northern industrial area. I told the guy in the business that I was patronizing "you know the signs say 'Gray Road' not Grays like you told me over the phone". His response was "really?"

[Hammer Native]

I took my car to a place off Gray Road north of Barton (the Hamilton section you're referring to) and every street sign said Gray Road, even in the northern industrial area. I told the guy in the business that I was patronizing "you know the signs say 'Gray Road' not Grays like you told me over the phone". His response was "really?"

Looks like they finally decided on the one name, it must have been fairly recent, but I can't remember when I was down there last. There was even an article in the Spectator last year about the name discrepancy, and maybe that prompted city hall to straighten it out. Yeah, it probably came as a surprise to the business people in the northern industrial section.

[raisethehammer]

yea, I remember when there was some 'debate' about which name to stick with. it was Gray and Grays for a while there.
At any rate, we've solved the issue of where Eastgate Square lies.

[realcity]

The entire commercial stretch (both sides) of Centennial is in Hamilton. The east side stretch of Centennial that lies within SC is residential.

[realcity]

I didn't say it was part of Hamilton. It was supposed to be. Talk to politicians who were around back then and for many years it was assumed that when borders were redrawn Aldershot would be annexed to Hamilton.

Aldershot should be annexed into Hamilton. It's the only halfway decent part of Burlington anyway.

The downtown is annoying now. That restaurant on the water has rude patrolmen walking the parking lots making sure you only park there if you're visiting the restaurant. Real jerks too. It's Burlington's ridiculous fault and planning for developing a downtown that everyone has to drive to for a crowded walk along the water filled with snobs and jerks making sure you go to their overpriced, almost always empty restaurant.

[hamiltonguy]

1) It's both Grays and Gray, they had this on CH news a few months ago.

2) Regardless of pre-amalgamation tax borders (where did you get that from?), the official City of Hamilton Maps (both HSR and Bike Maps produced by the city) agree exactly with the borders I described.

3) Aldershot should not be part of Hamilton. It's continuously built up with Burlington, and there is a large area of Greenland in between Hamilton and Aldershot. Honestly if we take Aldershot we might as well take Grimsby and the rest of Burlington.

[raisethehammer]

1) It's both Grays and Gray, they had this on CH news a few months ago.

2) Regardless of pre-amalgamation tax borders (where did you get that from?), the official City of Hamilton Maps (both HSR and Bike Maps produced by the city) agree exactly with the borders I described.

3) Aldershot should not be part of Hamilton. It's continuously built up with Burlington, and there is a large area of Greenland in between Hamilton and Aldershot. Honestly if we take Aldershot we might as well take Grimsby and the rest of Burlington.

sounds like a good idea! :tup:

[Hammer Native]

Boy we could start a whole new thread on street names, what they mean, where they came from, what their history is, etc. Would probably make for an interesting topic. Is anyone interested?

Yes at least among us we resolved the issue of where Eastgate Square is located. (And I assume they named it Eastgate because it's at the former east Hamilton boundary. If it was in Stoney Creek it would have been in their west end, the name wouldn't make sense.)

[Millstone]

Boy we could start a whole new thread on street names, what they mean, where they came from, what their history is, etc. Would probably make for an interesting topic. Is anyone interested?

Yes at least among us we resolved the issue of where Eastgate Square is located. (And I assume they named it Eastgate because it's at the former east Hamilton boundary. If it was in Stoney Creek it would have been in their west end, the name wouldn't make sense.)

all i know is that Nathaniel Hughson's daughter was Catharine, his son James, his wife Rebecca. and he was the MF-ing KING!!! amirite?

[Hammer Native]

all i know is that Nathaniel Hughson's daughter was Catharine, his son James, his wife Rebecca. and he was the MF-ing KING!!! amirite?

HA HA, I think you got it.

[matt602]

all i know is that Nathaniel Hughson's daughter was Catharine, his son James, his wife Rebecca. and he was the MF-ing KING!!! amirite?

A++ excellent history lesson, would learn again :tup:

[Millstone]

A++ excellent history lesson, would learn again :tup:

Next week: pointless debate over the naming of the Burlington Skyway


oh wait

[realcity]

believe it or not... names are important. They're important when it comes to Hamilton's image and when used in media.

[raisethehammer]

and our history. A home is up for sale around the corner from me. An awesome little cottage (only $167,000 if anyone is interested - on Tom St).
It belonged to one of the MacNab's back in the day. They put that in the listing. Names are VERY important to a city's identity and history.