[the capital urbanite]

The environmental advisory committee will be discussing pedestrian zones in the Byward Market on Thursday.

Maybe they should add cobblestones to Clarence and make it off-limits to through vehicles during off-peak hours?

[O-Town Hockey]

They should have it like in Amsterdam where barriers come out of the ground at a certain time of the night to make the streets pedestrian-only in the red light district. As long as there is ample pedestrian traffic (and I think there would be in the market) it really makes the area safer and more enjoyable to have a drink (or a joint) on the patio.

[Cre47]

Sure, I would agree about that proposal. Business need to realize that they should not depend on car parking. A more pedestrian environment, may in fact help there own cause.

Of course, the delivery guys will have another opinion though.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Of course, the delivery guys will have another opinion though.

Bike couriers and I'm sure that some exceptions would be made in certain cases. Ottawa seems to be the "City of Compromises" these days...

[clynnog]

They should have it like in Amsterdam where barriers come out of the ground at a certain time of the night to make the streets pedestrian-only in the red light district. As long as there is ample pedestrian traffic (and I think there would be in the market) it really makes the area safer and more enjoyable to have a drink (or a joint) on the patio.


I saw that in Cambridge, England where a street parallel to the main shopping street (which was pedestrians only) had these nice looking ornamental bollards rising out of the pavement. The parallel street was pedestrian 99% of the time; however, only delivery vehicles who had some sort of remote thing in their car could activate the bollards to be lowered down to street level in order to make their deliveries. There was a very slow speed limit for them. Seemed to work fine there. However, Europe is more attuned to not necessarily having a parking space right in front of the building.

[Kitchissippi]

I would love to see all the surface parking and the ugly multi-level garage replaced by a huge underground parking under most of York Street. York Street could then be car-free with structures for more shops and cafés, and the site of the multilevel garage could be an open plaza. There is actually a dearth of open space in the Market to just sit and relax, or for extra market stalls in the height of the summer.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2283/2400887969_be5c0c0a83_o.jpg

Without surface parking, York street is wide enough to be something like the Ramblas in Barcelona:
http://jillysblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/calle-de-las-ramblas.jpg jillysblog.com

http://www.lemonpage.de/Barcelona%20Ciudad/Barcelona%20Ramblas.jpg lemonpage.de

http://barcelona-spain.ca/images/lasramblas.jpg barcelona-spain.ca

[m0nkyman]

I'm against it. Leave the traffic there. It's part of the vibrancy of the area. Find me a lively pedestrian-only area in Canada, and then we'll talk. Until then I'll point out just how successful Sparks St is and ask why the f*** we want to replicate that success.

[the capital urbanite]

I'm against it. Leave the traffic there. It's part of the vibrancy of the area. Find me a lively pedestrian-only area in Canada, and then we'll talk. Until then I'll point out just how successful Sparks St is and ask why the f*** we want to replicate that success.

The Market is an entirely different kettle of fish from Sparks street. Limiting (NOT eliminating it) vehicular traffic in the Market would not "kill" it. Why?

Because people LIVE in the Market. There is a COMMUNITY in the Market. Without a community you have no street life, and no sustainibility -- you have Sparks street.

[ajldub]

Another great idea, Kitchissippi. Very expensive, but great. Put the light rail down Sparks, get the cars out of the market, and WHAMMO you've picked up the vibrancy of both neighborhoods...

[d_jeffrey]

I'm against it. Leave the traffic there. It's part of the vibrancy of the area. Find me a lively pedestrian-only area in Canada, and then we'll talk. Until then I'll point out just how successful Sparks St is and ask why the f*** we want to replicate that success.

Ste-Catherine St. in th summer? (it's pedestrians only for many blocks)

But I agree that some vehicular activity adds to the vibrancy.

[Acajack]

I believe there is also currently a lot of talk in Montreal about expanding existing pedestrian streets and creating new ones.

[Kitchissippi]

Find me a lively pedestrian-only area in Canada, and then we'll talk.

While not in Canada, the closest comparable I think would be Boston's Quincy Market/Faneuil Hall (http://www.faneuilhallmarketplace.com/). I consider it to be Byward Market's bigger cousin, and looking at this historical postcard, they have a similar layout of a central Market hall with side buildings:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/fa267/19th/quincmk2.jpg Boston College

http://www.helloboston.com/Images/Buildings/5302005Quincy_Market__Boston_1904.jpg Hello Boston

Today, the area is one of North America's premier pedestrian districts.

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=90320&rendTypeId=4 britannica.com

http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicv/vfiles8478.jpg city-data.com

http://www.choltschulze.de/20020511USABostonDowntownatQuincyMarket.JPG www.choltschulze.de

It's not really vehicular traffic that bothers me as much as surface parking. I find parked cars such an eyesore and creates barriers in the street. It is sad that the amount of surface parking in the Byward market exceeds the amount of pedestrian space. Walking among the stalls is extremely crowded and difficult.

[kwoldtimer]

I would love to see all the surface parking and the ugly multi-level garage replaced by a huge underground parking under most of York Street. York Street could then be car-free with structures for more shops and cafés, and the site of the multilevel garage could be an open plaza. There is actually a dearth of open space in the Market to just sit and relax, or for extra market stalls in the height of the summer.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2283/2400887969_be5c0c0a83_o.jpg

Without surface parking, York street is wide enough to be something like the Ramblas in Barcelona:
http://jillysblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/calle-de-las-ramblas.jpg jillysblog.com

http://www.lemonpage.de/Barcelona%20Ciudad/Barcelona%20Ramblas.jpg lemonpage.de

http://barcelona-spain.ca/images/lasramblas.jpg barcelona-spain.ca


You could easily close William and Byward to traffic down each side of the Market building itself. Next, get rid of the parking on York west to Sussex and widen the median as you show. Would be a nice start without too much disruption (including emergency access). Only issue would be arranging to accomdate the farm vendors who currently keep their trucks at the stalls on Byward. Bonus would be opening up a bit of pedestrian space on Byward (that crowded sidewalk on busy summer weekends is brutal!) and maybe some outdoor terraces on William.:tup:

[Mille Sabords]

Kitchissippi - what a fantastic idea. Making ramblas out of George and York is the perfect way to pedestrianize the Market AND let it "grow in, not out" by expanding the stalls area along those two streets, as contiguous extensions to the ones on ByWard Street. Ramblas still allow car access to parking garages and provide on-street parking. George and York are wide enough to have underground parking under each of them, which could be accessed through the lot that is presently the municipal garage with the Ontario Fruits store.

My own take on your idea would be to extend the George Rambla from Sussex to East Market, and the York Rambla from Sussex to King Edward.

An idea like this deserves to be taken seriously. It would completely change the experience we have of the whole downtown core, and make Ottawa one of those truly great pedestrian cities.

[ajldub]

Here here to one of the better ideas I've seen on this forum. It would take a good couple of hundred million bucks to hollow out the streets 4 stories deep, and would kill business around it for at least a summer, but with proper planning it could be done. This would be the biggest thing that ever happened to the market, so you'd want to solve the other problems with the space simultaneously - namely, the omnipresent wall of Bay and the junky Bay car park across the street. Bury the car park, replace with respectable infill, and bring the HBC onboard to solve the wall of Bay(maybe underground delivery in the car park so that ground floor retail can go in instead?) and let the Byward market rise in all its glory.

If this were actually to happen it would make Ottawa such an awesome and liveable downtown.

[m0nkyman]

Can someone explain to me why we are trying to 'fix' the most vibrant area of the city? What exactly is broken about it that we would need to spend a couple of hundred million dollars?

[Mille Sabords]

Can someone explain to me why we are trying to 'fix' the most vibrant area of the city? What exactly is broken about it that we would need to spend a couple of hundred million dollars?

Not "fix". Improve, update, refresh. It will make it nicer with ramblas. There will be more stalls. People will have heated, climate-controlled parking for those who drive in to partake in it. There will be more people on the streets. The new ramblas can also have double rows of tall shade trees, which would be a real plus because there are no trees in the market to speak of and in 35 degree heat you fry your skull.

[d_jeffrey]

Can someone explain to me why we are trying to 'fix' the most vibrant area of the city? What exactly is broken about it that we would need to spend a couple of hundred million dollars?

Have you ever tried to walk on George St.?! Streets mixed with terraces mixed with trees. It's such a mess.

[ajldub]

The streets around the market are a little too cramped in the summer too. Plus the stalls that the farmers sell out of are pretty junky and could use a facelift.

[m0nkyman]

Have you ever tried to walk on George St.?! Streets mixed with terraces mixed with trees. It's such a mess.

I've lived and/or worked in the market for many years. My observation of human nature is that they like crowds. That crowding that everyone keeps trying to 'fix' is what makes people like the market.

Here's a test. Go to the grocery store and stare at some random item on the shelf. I'll bet you that someone else will almost immediately need something from that exact spot, no matter how empty the store is.... That's the same need to crowd that makes the Market work. And what people keep trying to 'fix'.

[kwoldtimer]

I've lived and/or worked in the market for many years. My observation of human nature is that they like crowds. That crowding that everyone keeps trying to 'fix' is what makes people like the market.

Here's a test. Go to the grocery store and stare at some random item on the shelf. I'll bet you that someone else will almost immediately need something from that exact spot, no matter how empty the store is.... That's the same need to crowd that makes the Market work. And what people keep trying to 'fix'.

Crowds are one thing, but unduly cramped (even occasionally impassable in the case of Byward's narrow sidewalk) is another. The idea would expand the pedestrian areas and create a better atmosphere overall - result would probably be more, and more pleasant, "crowds" not less. As one who has also lived in the Market area in the past, I would have appreciated a bit more walking space.

[jeremy_haak]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. On the whole, experience would seem to indicate that tinkering with a good thing tends to make it worse, not better, regardless of the intentions.

That said, I would like to see streets where cars aren't necessarily prohibited, but there isn't an exclusive ROW for their use. During the daylight hours, vehicles could attempt to negotiate their way amongst pedestrians, and at night, bollards pop up, blocking their access. Are drivers in North America mature enough to handle those sorts of conditions?

[d_jeffrey]

I've lived and/or worked in the market for many years. My observation of human nature is that they like crowds. That crowding that everyone keeps trying to 'fix' is what makes people like the market.

Here's a test. Go to the grocery store and stare at some random item on the shelf. I'll bet you that someone else will almost immediately need something from that exact spot, no matter how empty the store is.... That's the same need to crowd that makes the Market work. And what people keep trying to 'fix'.

I wasn't talking about crowds, I like crowds too. I just want some place to walk properly. I usually walk on Rideau because the sidewalks are at least available. People on george need to walk on the "tree" sidwalks, messed with uneven bricks. The available sidewalk is such a mess. I'm only asking for some place to be able to walk safely.

[Aylmer]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yes! With that logic, we could live our lives without ever evolving!

:)

[Mille Sabords]

I agree with m0nkeyman about crowds. Smaller spaces feel like they're livelier because people are more crowded. For me, the whole point of converting George and York into ramblas would be to expand the market's "crowded area". Right now it's pretty small - it's really only Byward Street when the stalls are out. Maybe also Clarence Street with the patios. Other than that, the market has regular pedestrian traffic - nothing you wouldn't see in any other big city. Two ramblas off either end of Byward street would extend the fun for a few more blocks. That's what makes Barcelona such a treat to explore. Making your way through a crowd means you have to walk slower and it also means you can't see too far ahead so the surprises keep coming. :D

[Kitchissippi]

Here's the reason why we need to expand the pedestrian areas in the ByWard Market. We're basically cramming everything in front and ruining the look of the space. It's practically defacing and obstructing a great photo op for thousands of tourists:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3577/3463284609_8d1915057b_b.jpg

This front area would be so much better left as open air seating (ever try and find a spot to sit down to eat your beavertail?) and maybe busking space. There is no reason why cheap trinket stands can't be moved towards the back elsewhere.

If York street was made into extra market space (as it used to be along with George Street), we could basically turn this parking lot for 60 odd cars:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/3463284451_72493574c2_b.jpg

into something like this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3528/3463284259_1e85ab154c_o.jpg

This would also create a perpendicular axis in the market and draw more people to and from Major's Hill Park.

[osbort]

indeed. That parking lot on York street is such a waste.

[kwoldtimer]

indeed. That parking lot on York street is such a waste.

Given the width of the centre median/walkway, you wouldn't even need to close both sides to parking - either side would provide enough space for a new row of vendors.

[Rathgrith]

If they close it; where will I park my horse and buggy when I go shopping?

Someone please think of the horses!

[waterloowarrior]

Traffic Changes in Byward Market
http://www.cfra.com/?cat=1&nid=72764
Josh Pringle
Monday, April 26, 2010

The City of Ottawa will begin implementing traffic changes in the Byward Market this week to create a public plaza at the intersection of York Street and William Street.

Starting today, there will be no access from Clarence Street to William Street as the city reconfigures William so traffic out of the parking garage will be able to exit northbound.

Starting May 3, one-way signs will be posted on William between Clarence and York directing traffic northbound out of the parking garage.

The city is creating a new public gathering place at the intersection of York and William Streets to encourage more pedestrian and bicycle traffic.

The city will decide in September whether to make the changes permanen

[Yroc]

I don't think spending millions is necessary.

The city is creating a new public gathering place at the intersection of York and William Streets to encourage more pedestrian and bicycle traffic.

The idea of closing William south of the car park will have little impact on the area (perhaps someone is trying to show us "fail" so they don't have to consider making any real changes). There is little that can be done with this space given one entire side of the road is a car park, not to mention it is the most narrow street there is. I suspect it will just be a deserted patch of space.

----------

Closing William and Byward on each side of the Byward Market building (during the summer months) would have an impact and solve the issue with overly cramped sidewalks which can easily be reverted to its current form of parking in the winter months. It would also give some space for those on both sides of the street for patios (expecially those on William). William would become a pedestrian thru-way during the summer months given it will be closed on the north end is already closed on the south end.

The idea of closing the West part of York is also a fantastic idea in full or in part (although I would try this in steps to ensure success before proceeding). It might simply be a good idea to let some of the parking go to vendor stands as is done on the current Byward St. I personally don't think there is room for vendors on William as I think the businesses could better use the space for patios.

Both of these changes can be made for very little cost. It would be important to place vendors in the center of the existing roadway on Byward with proper looking stands (perhaps the city can build some) so that it does not detract from the nearby business (and my proposed patios) as it does today.

The market may be a gem to some ... but it's really an ugly looking beast in it's present form. What keeps people interested is not what it is .. but what it could be (a nice place with crowds of people versus a place with crowds of people).

[kwoldtimer]

Traffic Changes in Byward Market
http://www.cfra.com/?cat=1&nid=72764
Josh Pringle
Monday, April 26, 2010

The City of Ottawa will begin implementing traffic changes in the Byward Market this week to create a public plaza at the intersection of York Street and William Street.

Starting today, there will be no access from Clarence Street to William Street as the city reconfigures William so traffic out of the parking garage will be able to exit northbound.

Starting May 3, one-way signs will be posted on William between Clarence and York directing traffic northbound out of the parking garage.

The city is creating a new public gathering place at the intersection of York and William Streets to encourage more pedestrian and bicycle traffic.

The city will decide in September whether to make the changes permanen

I don't get it. If York between the parking garage and the market building is not closed at the same time to create a bit of pedestrian space, I am not sure what this achieves. :shrug:

[Yroc]

http://ottawa.ca/residents/construction/projects/william_street/byward_render.jpg

The widening of the sidewalk on the North side of York Street would provide more space for daytime vendors who normally take up a parking stall during the Market season. It would also free up five more parking space on York Street between Dalhousie Avenue and William Street.

Its funny how the picture omits showing these 5 new parking spaces (or rather the vendors moved out of the existing parking spaces and into the new "public" space).

[waterloowarrior]

Sounds successful so far
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2010/05/16/13967806.html

[Brainbug]

I agree that the sidewalks can get crowded in the summer and the idea to repurpose the parking on York to patio/seating/busker etc... would work for the busy May-Sep timeframe.

I disagree with removing the parking garage. The garage is always busy and provides a convenient location for anyone living outside of the market to park and visit.

These types of propsals show up every spring/summer in the paper, but people seem to forget that the exterior aspect of the market is only 5-6 months long, unlike Europe or much of the US.

[Kitchissippi]

I agree that the sidewalks can get crowded in the summer and the idea to repurpose the parking on York to patio/seating/busker etc... would work for the busy May-Sep timeframe.

I disagree with removing the parking garage. The garage is always busy and provides a convenient location for anyone living outside of the market to park and visit.

All the parking should be put underground to make room for people on the surface.

These types of propsals show up every spring/summer in the paper, but people seem to forget that the exterior aspect of the market is only 5-6 months long, unlike Europe or much of the US.

This is like saying "your childhood is only 1/4th of your life, why bother putting up playgrounds? The kids can play on the street."

Ottawa is at 45˚N and Copenhagen is at 55˚N, in the winter sun sets almost a full hour there before it does here, yet they manage this:
http://www.taller-arquitectura.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/danmarkstur-kobenhavn-stroget.jpg

In as much as our winters are cold, the places farther south have summers that are too hot, making their exterior spaces uncomfortable for a good part of the year as well. And although the warm months are only half the year here, they comprise roughly 70% of all the daylight hours.

[Yroc]

I have seen the new set up (will take pics next time I am down there). It's not very pleasing from a functional or visual point of view.

The rendering suggests there would one lane of traffic coming out of the car park .. whereas reality has 2 lanes. One that turns left onto Clarence, the other to turn right.

This leaves the super narrow sidewalk on the east side of the street in place and limits the benefits of the closure to the South end of the street. Also of note was a bit of a traffic jam coming out of the car park on Sunday.