[Rico Rommheim]

Brenda Martin wasn't in court for the ruling by Justice Luis Nunez Sandoval. She was in the Puente Grande women's prison near Guadalajara where she's spent the past two years awaiting his decision. Her lawyers and court officials conveyed the bad news: Nunez had found her guilty of money laundering and fined her the equivalent of nearly $4,000 in Mexican pesos.

Brenda Martin was jailed in Mexico on money-laundering and conspiracy charges in 2006 after her former boss pleaded guilty to one of the biggest internet fraud schemes in history.

The 51-year-old woman, from Trenton, Ont., maintains her innocence, insisting that she was just a cook for fraudster Alyn Richard Waage and had believed his business was legitimate. Waage has testified Martin was unaware of his activities. He is serving a 10-year prison sentence in the United States.

Mexican prosecutors filed court documents saying that Martin's "close relationship for a fair length of time" with Waage "leads to the supposition that she had some knowledge of the criminal activities in which her friend was engaged."

Justice Nunez agreed. His ruling says she knew that illicit funds were involved in her employer's transactions. After Waage fired her in 2001, Martin received $26,000 in severance pay and invested some of it in his illegal scheme – money he returned to her once he became aware of her investment.

The nature of Mexico's justice system, which does not include oral trials and puts the onus on the accused to prove his or her innocence rather than on the prosecution to prove guilt, means Martin must wait out her legal process in prison alongside both convicted criminals and others who had not been found guilty of any crime.

Her lawyers tried to challenge her prosecution on constitutional grounds, arguing she hadn't been provided with a competent interpreter to explain the charges against her. Mexican officials said that challenge helped delay a verdict in her case.

Martin's family and friends say imprisonment has taken its toll on Martin, leaving her depressed, heavily sedated and on 24-hour suicide watch in Puente Grande women's prison near Guadalajara. Her conviction will just make things worse, they say.

Here's a look at the events leading up to Martin's imprisonment, and the efforts to have her released:

1998

Martin arrives in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, and begins working as a cook and caterer. Mexican officials say she did not have a work visa.

May 2000

She is hired to work as a chef for Alyn Richard Waage, a former resident of Edmonton, who purportedly runs an investment company.

March 2001

Waage fires Martin after an incident in which she says she called Waage's mother "a very nasty name." Martin is paid $26,000 US in severance, of which she invests roughly $10,000 US into Waage's company.

When Waage later finds out about the investment, he refunds the money.

April through September 2001

Waage is arrested for fraud following a joint investigation by U.S., Canadian and Costa Rican authorities.

They say Waage masterminded an online investment scam called Tri-West Investment Club that was responsible for defrauding 15,000 victims around the world of more than $60 million US between 1999 and September 2001. The scam was a "Ponzi scheme" in which early investors are paid with money from investors who joined later.

Mexican authorities release Waage on bail, and he flees to Costa Rica, where he is apprehended by U.S. investigators.

2002

Waage is extradited to the United States to face trial.

May 5, 2003

Waage pleads guilty to mail fraud, wire fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering.

2005

The men involved in the Tri-West Investment Club scheme are sentenced. Waage, who prosecutors call the "kingpin," is given 10 years in a North Carolina prison. His son, Carey, co-operates with authorities to get a reduced sentence of more than four years in prison.

Saskatchewan's Keith Nordick receives five years in prison for mail and wire fraud and conspiracy to launder money. Web designer Michael Webb is sentenced to just under five years in prison.

Also in 2005, Albertan Roger Harrison publishes a fiction novel based on his unwitting involvement with Tri-West, called The Wanted and the Unwanted. The book includes characters based on many of the major players in the scam but no likeness of Martin.

Feb. 17, 2006

Mexican police come to Martin's home and tell her she needs to make one more statement against Waage. They say she will be home the next day. Instead, she is arrested and detained at the Puente Grande women's prison near Guadalajara, Mexico.

Authorities charge her with money laundering and criminal conspiracy.

2007

Martin's lawyers ask to have the charges against her dismissed on the grounds that her human rights were violated when she was arrested and charged. They mount a constitutional challenge, arguing that under international law Martin should have been provided with an interpreter during interviews with police.

By this time, Waage has signed an affidavit saying Martin had no knowledge of the scam. He also testified that he never told Martin anything because she drank heavily, and he felt he couldn't trust her.

Liberal MP Dan McTeague, the party's consular affairs critic, makes repeated calls for Canadian intervention in the case.

March 2008

Martin is placed on suicide watch after threatening to kill herself if she is not released within the first week of March. A psychotherapist who visited her in prison says Martin is under a "tremendous amount of stress" and "at the end of her rope."

March 10, 2008

The constitutional challenge is dismissed by a Mexican Federal Court. Mexican officials say it is the defence's legal challenge, known as an amparo and similar to an injunction, that was responsible for delaying the case by five months, because the criminal proceedings were halted pending its outcome.

The judge in Martin's case has also said that because she's a foreigner who requires translation of legal documents and testimony from out-of-country witnesses, her case is taking longer than the one year it would normally take if a Mexican had been charged with the same crimes.

March 12, 2008

Former prime minister Paul Martin, no relation, visits Martin in prison while in Mexico for conference on global governance reform. The former PM raises concern about Martin's health and the prison conditions with senior Mexican officials and prison officials following the visit.

March 14, 2008

The Mexican Embassy in Canada releases a statement saying that a review of Martin's case found that her constitutional rights had not been violated and that she had been in the country without a work visa. The embassy says that at the request of the Canadian government it has "taken all steps within its reach to ensure the case is expedited and that Brenda Martin has the best prison conditions possible."

March 17, 2008

Prime Minister Stephen Harper calls Mexican President Felipe Calderon to request assistance in Martin's case.

Meanwhile, Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier meets with his Mexican counterpart, Patricia Espinosa, and asks for authorities to speed up the process for the Canadian woman.

March 19-20, 2008

Conservative MPs Jason Kenney, the secretary of state for multiculturalism, and Rick Norlock visit Martin in prison. They also meet with senior officials at the Mexican attorney general's office, the foreign ministry and the prison to discuss Martin. Kenney says that Mexican officials assured him they would try to "fast-track" the case.

Martin reacts to the visit by calling it "a dog and pony show" and says that she is not a "political pawn."

March 24, 2008

Waage, now 61, tells the Canadian Press that Mexican officials are using Martin and another former employee — American Rebecca Roth, an assistant who has also been detained since February 2006 at the Guadalajara jail — as "ransom" for his unpaid debt. Speaking from prison in North Carolina, he says his lawyers struck a deal with Mexican authorities after his 2001 arrest, exchanging $500,000 US for his freedom. He claims both women have written to him saying they'll be released once he pays the money.

Martin's Toronto lawyer, Guillermo Cruz Rico, said he's not aware of the bribe and has declined to comment on the ransom allegation.

March 27, 2008

A Canadian government report is leaked, detailing more than 100 government actions related to Martin since the woman's 2006 arrest. The report reveals that government officials have met with Martin several times and called her repeatedly, as well as contacting Mexican authorities in regard to her case. Martin, her family, friends and the Opposition have all previously blasted the government for inaction on the case.

April 14, 2008

Brenda Martin attends her final defence summation hearing in a Mexican court. Her lawyer, Guillermo Cruz Rico, says he expects a decision soon and later expressed confidence she'd be freed by the judge. Her friends say that if she is found guilty, she will seek transfer to Canada rather than appeal, which would require her to stay in a Mexican prison.

April 22, 2008

Justice Luis Nunez Sandova finds Martin guilty of money laundering and sentences her to five years in prison, and fines her 35,800 Mexican pesos, about $3,700.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/mexico/martin-timeline.html


Can you believe this shit? What kind of racket are these mexican judges running? What a kind of country is this? Is anyone else here just devastated by this news? I don't even think she'll make it out of there alive!

[TOBoy]

Mexican prosecutors filed court documents saying that Martin's "close relationship for a fair length of time" with Waage "leads to the supposition that she had some knowledge of the criminal activities in which her friend was engaged."

Well that says it. She's guilty because she knew him!

[vid]

Her interview the other day reminded me of my aunt, the kind of person who would never do anything wrong and HOW DARE you suggest that. As bad as her situation is, the way she is handling it is not improving anything.

[Rico Rommheim]

can you fucking blame her? stuck in a mexican rat hole for two years waiting for a phoney trial? And nobody to help her? 5 more years now.

[mersar]

The only good thing that comes with the conviction is that its very very likely she will be transferred back to Canada now, for a much reduced sentence. Would have been better if the judge went the other way, but at least this way she will get away from the obviously inept system down there.

[TOBoy]

I guess she doesn't get credit for time served. Five years with no real evidence. Our so called justice in this world certainly has its problems and we are fortunate here in Canada, but it still isn't perfect.

[Rico Rommheim]

The only good thing that comes with the conviction is that its very very likely she will be transferred back to Canada now, for a much reduced sentence. Would have been better if the judge went the other way, but at least this way she will get away from the obviously inept system down there.

CBC news said that between the paperwork and bureaucracy the process of bringing her home (home as in just another prison) could take weeks or years!

[Blue 24]

Is this a surprise? Mexico is not a good place to visit or live in. I am sure most of the people there are good people, like most of the people in Canada are, but it wil be forever before they are up to pre-WWII Canada standards.

[MonkeyRonin]

Is this a surprise? Mexico is not a good place to visit or live in. I am sure most of the people there are good people, like most of the people in Canada are, but it wil be forever before they are up to pre-WWII Canada standards.

Mexico's GDP/capita is over $11,000, with an HDI of 0.829. Though they do still have some problems with corruption, economically it is doing great, and really, I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a fully developed nation by 2020.

And what makes it not a good place to visit?

[artvandelay]

I feel sorry for her, but I don't share the a opinion that Mexico is a shithole with a wild-west justice system. Just because their legal system is different, it doesn't mean that she did not get a fair trial, despite the claims of the Canadian media. According to the Mexicans, she did not have a proper work visa when she came to Mexico. There are two sides to the story and I will reserve judgment until more evidence comes out.
Secondly, her behavior seems strange to me. She kicks and screams for the Canadian government to help her, but the second they send somebody she claims that the government is doing nothing and it's just a photo op. Just as you take a chance when you go on vacation down south, you take a bigger chance when choosing to work and live there, and the Canadian government cannot be expected to bail these people out of their problems.

[vid]

Mexico has a crime problem, especially in its south where there is a 'civil war' going on, which makes it less attractive. But then, Jamaica has one of the highest murder rates in the world. It's relative -- Mexico is less safe than, say, Florida or Canada, but safer than Thailand or Rio de Janairo. (Though Rio may be improved by now, but it and São Paolo have a reputation for it.)

Mexico and Brazil are both in the grey area between being developed and developing nations. They have areas that are very impoverished and areas that have living standards equal to those in Canada.

In short: When you go on vacation, know something about where you're going.

[someone123]

A year ago I traveled somewhat extensively in the parts of Mexico that are supposedly overrun by civil war (which, in reality, is very low-grade and apparently far from being a case of evil terrorists vs a perfectly virtuous, democratic government and establishment - Mexico is kind of like what Canada would be if it were something like 60% native and yet the natives had roughly the same share they do currently). It was fine. Obviously, you should not involve yourself in anything sketchy whatsoever in Mexico. This is true in most foreign countries, including the US.

Owning property in Mexico can also be questionable (i.e. somebody might decide that you don't anymore) and I wouldn't want to work or permanently live there.

[valleyflyfisher]

So lets look at some facts here...she was in the country illegally, she was excepting large amounts of money from her "employer", then reinvesting it back into his company.......HELLO! This gets under my skin big time....her crocodile tears and demanding nature make me want to leave her right where she is. Funny how in this country we are continually complaining about the lack of accountability in our own justice system, yet the minute a Canadian gets into trouble in a foreign country, we collectively cry foul.
If you honestly feel that this woman was completely innocent then I would suggest you dig a little deeper. Her "boss" laundered millions of dollars and she played a part in that......do the crime, do the time.

Would we collectively be screaming for a discharge of all charges if it was a Mexican living in Canada illegally, who was laundering money for the Hell's Angels?

[sync]

So lets look at some facts here...she was in the country illegally, she was excepting large amounts of money from her "employer", then reinvesting it back into his company.......HELLO! This gets under my skin big time....her crocodile tears and demanding nature make me want to leave her right where she is. Funny how in this country we are continually complaining about the lack of accountability in our own justice system, yet the minute a Canadian gets into trouble in a foreign country, we collectively cry foul.
If you honestly feel that this woman was completely innocent then I would suggest you dig a little deeper. Her "boss" laundered millions of dollars and she played a part in that......do the crime, do the time.

Would we collectively be screaming for a discharge of all charges if it was a Mexican living in Canada illegally, who was laundering money for the Hell's Angels?

get out of here with your facts! ;)

[harls]

So lets look at some facts here...she was in the country illegally, she was excepting large amounts of money from her "employer", then reinvesting it back into his company.......HELLO! This gets under my skin big time....her crocodile tears and demanding nature make me want to leave her right where she is. Funny how in this country we are continually complaining about the lack of accountability in our own justice system, yet the minute a Canadian gets into trouble in a foreign country, we collectively cry foul.
If you honestly feel that this woman was completely innocent then I would suggest you dig a little deeper. Her "boss" laundered millions of dollars and she played a part in that......do the crime, do the time.

Would we collectively be screaming for a discharge of all charges if it was a Mexican living in Canada illegally, who was laundering money for the Hell's Angels?


Agreed.

[The Kid]

Is this a surprise? Mexico is not a good place to visit or live in. I am sure most of the people there are good people, like most of the people in Canada are, but it wil be forever before they are up to pre-WWII Canada standards.

Not a good place to visit??? Are you serious? Have you ever been to Mexico? I have travelled extensively there over the past 15 years, have been to almost every region and have had nothing but awesome experiences overall. The vast majority of people there have always been friendly and helpful.

No doubt that a few Canadians have died under suspicious circumstances and their justice system could be a little more transparent but ours is far from perfect too. With thousands of Americans and Canadians visiting there every year and the close to 500,000 Americans and Canadians that live there full time, I would suggest it's not a bad place to visit at all. Like any other country you are visiting or living in, stay out of trouble with the law and that means not associating with criminals either, or expect to face the music. Period!

[rrskylar]

So lets look at some facts here...she was in the country illegally, she was excepting large amounts of money from her "employer", then reinvesting it back into his company.......HELLO! This gets under my skin big time....her crocodile tears and demanding nature make me want to leave her right where she is. Funny how in this country we are continually complaining about the lack of accountability in our own justice system, yet the minute a Canadian gets into trouble in a foreign country, we collectively cry foul.
If you honestly feel that this woman was completely innocent then I would suggest you dig a little deeper. Her "boss" laundered millions of dollars and she played a part in that......do the crime, do the time.

Would we collectively be screaming for a discharge of all charges if it was a Mexican living in Canada illegally, who was laundering money for the Hell's Angels?



Did anyone in the media do a little research into her background, ie. criminal record etc.

[ungodlycrosscheck]

From the article at the top of the thread... "Martin's lawyers ask to have the charges against her dismissed on the grounds that her human rights were violated when she was arrested and charged. They mount a constitutional challenge, arguing that under international law Martin should have been provided with an interpreter during interviews with police."

And this side-bar constitutional challenge IS the reason she waited 2 years for her criminal case to be heard. She should blame her lawyers for giving her bad advice, rather than chastizing the Mexican justice system.

Some general comments:
Great post Valleyflyfisher... there is a certain temptation in the public writ large to think that Brenda Martin has gotten a bad deal, but the facts surrounding her case raise some legitimate suspicion about her innocence.

I can't help but wondering if during Brenda's years of working in Mexico prior to her incarceration, if she declared her foreign income with the Canada Revenue Agency? If not, well then add tax evasion to her list of convictions and frankly I think she should forfeit consular services. Anyway...

About three weeks ago there was a very poorly attended rally in Ottawa for Brenda Martin on Parliament Hill. How to explain the poor attendance, when apparently, if you believe the media spin, every damn Canadian is ready to boycott corona and stop using salsa.

I tend to think that the initial public outcry of support ran dry very quickly when certain facts about the case became publicized. A way of demonstrating this comes courtesy of my wife, who is the Executive Assistant to a high profile Government MP. She tells me when Brenda Martin's story first went "national" about 6-8 weeks ago, the office phones apparently did not stop ringing with demands for the Canadian government to intervene. However, this outswelling of public support died in short order. Could this decrease in calls be explained as spent outrage rather than an actual drop in support? Perhaps, but not likely. I'm told that issues that resonate with certain groups attract sustained calls and letters over a prolonged period, they don't simply go away conveniently. For example, many MPs STILL get regular calls and letters about the government's decision to tax income trusts, a decision announced in October 2006.

So, I feel pretty confident that those early expressions of outrage about a corrupt Mexican justice system fell flat on their face, when it began to look like Brenda Martin, could herself, share some of the blame for her own hardship.

[someone123]

No doubt that a few Canadians have died under suspicious circumstances and their justice system could be a little more transparent but ours is far from perfect too. With thousands of Americans and Canadians visiting there every year and the close to 500,000 Americans and Canadians that live there full time, I would suggest it's not a bad place to visit at all. Like any other country you are visiting or living in, stay out of trouble with the law and that means not associating with criminals either, or expect to face the music. Period!

If there is one high-profile murder case in a foreign country involving Canadians all of a sudden that place is "unsafe" for a couple of years. By those same bizarre standards nowhere in Canada is safe to visit either because Canadians are victims of violent crime every day in some corner of the country.

[204]

Not a good place to visit??? Are you serious?


I do believe he IS serious...

Mexico is the quintessential banana republic—a corrupt oligarchy of arrogant rich, a tiny middle class and millions of poor people, around half of whom live in poverty.

U.S. extends Mexico travel alert


Drug wars and other crimes have prompted the U.S. State Department to extend for six months a travel alert for Mexico, especially border towns.
“Violent criminal activity fueled by a war between criminal organizations struggling for control of the lucrative narcotics trade continues along the U.S.-Mexico border,” said the latest alert posted on the State Department’s Web site this week.
“Americans have been among the victims of homicides and kidnappings in the border region. Armed robberies and carjackings, apparently unconnected to the narcotics-related violence, have increased in Tijuana and Ciudad Juarez.”
Crime in resort areas such as Cancun and Acapulco also is escalating, State said on its Web site. “Drug-related violence, including shooting and kidnapping, has increased in Acapulco. … Although this violence is not targeted at foreign residents or tourists, U.S. citizens in these areas should be vigilant in their personal safety.”
For more information, go to www.travel.state.gov (http://www.travel.state.gov/).

[koops65]

Obviously I dont have ALL the facts... but it seems like she must have done something wrong to get herself into the situation she's in. Now she's been convicted. Just like thousands (MILLIONS)?) of other people. Break a deal, spin the wheel! No pity from me for her at all...

[bigcanuck]

I do believe he IS serious...

Mexico is the quintessential banana republic—a corrupt oligarchy of arrogant rich, a tiny middle class and millions of poor people, around half of whom live in poverty.

U.S. extends Mexico travel alert


Drug wars and other crimes have prompted the U.S. State Department to extend for six months a travel alert for Mexico, especially border towns.
“Violent criminal activity fueled by a war between criminal organizations struggling for control of the lucrative narcotics trade continues along the U.S.-Mexico border,” said the latest alert posted on the State Department’s Web site this week.
“Americans have been among the victims of homicides and kidnappings in the border region. Armed robberies and carjackings, apparently unconnected to the narcotics-related violence, have increased in Tijuana and Ciudad Juarez.”
Crime in resort areas such as Cancun and Acapulco also is escalating, State said on its Web site. “Drug-related violence, including shooting and kidnapping, has increased in Acapulco. … Although this violence is not targeted at foreign residents or tourists, U.S. citizens in these areas should be vigilant in their personal safety.”
For more information, go to www.travel.state.gov (http://www.travel.state.gov/).

If we believe all travel alerts, no one would want to come to Canada:

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Canada

"We advise you to exercise caution and monitor developments that might affect your safety in Canada because of the risk of terrorist attack. "

[RyanNS]

I've done my time in Mexican jail (one night but if it wasn't for a helpful South African I probably could have been there a lot longer) and it's not a pleasant place to be. Like most Third World nations it all comes down to $ not the facts. I don't really know much about her situation but let this be a warning for anyone traveling these parts, keep some money handy and watch who and what you surround yourself with.

[vid]

If we believe all travel alerts, no one would want to come to Canada:

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Canada

"We advise you to exercise caution and monitor developments that might affect your safety in Canada because of the risk of terrorist attack. "

Well, the American travel advisory gives actual examples of why it is there. Australia's advisory is just "there could be a terrorist attack". Which is true for anywhere on earth.

[Rico Rommheim]

She was a cook for christ's sake. She prepared meals for this Canadian businessman who happened to be a scam artist and a defrauder. She worked for him for a few weeks (or months?) and was eventually fired. She got a severance package (the so-called "dirty money") worth a few thousand bucks and was arrested for knowingly accepting this money.

When her employer went to trial (in the USA) he swore under oath that Brenda Martin was never involved in any way.

Honestly some people here give the mexican judicial system too much credit, and fail to see the sensitive nature of this case. THis woman is facing 5 years without parole in a mexican prison, with already two years served just awaiting her trial for what? Nothing warrants 7 years of torment.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Nothing warrants 7 years of torment.

Seriously?

Look, if you live ILLEGALLY as she did in a country for ten years, you surrender any right to criticise that country's legal system. She wasn't a desperate refugee or somebody compelled to risk her life to get into Mexico because of the desperation of her economic situation- she was a Canadian who could and should have NOT been in the wrong place at the wrong time. And she got $26k in "severance" (not a "few thousand bucks"), $10k of which she actually tried to reinvest into his Ponzi scheme.

Does she deserve 5 years in prison? No, but unlike the MEXICANS who don't deserve it either, she had no excuse for even being in the damn country.

[Waterlooson]

Seriously?

Look, if you live ILLEGALLY as she did in a country for ten years, you surrender any right to criticise that country's legal system. She wasn't a desperate refugee or somebody compelled to risk her life to get into Mexico because of the desperation of her economic situation- she was a Canadian who could and should have NOT been in the wrong place at the wrong time. And she got $26k in "severance" (not a "few thousand bucks"), $10k of which she actually tried to reinvest into his Ponzi scheme.

Does she deserve 5 years in prison? No, but unlike the MEXICANS who don't deserve it either, she had no excuse for even being in the damn country.


Actually, according to Mexican law, foreigners have no "right" to criticize Mexico, its government nor its legal system whether they are in the country legally or not.... people may be and have been summarily deported for doing just that by Mexican authorities despite the fact that the foreigner is/was in the country legally.... The term "Mexican justice system" is an oxymoron. Some of the biggest crooks in Mexico are the police, the civil servants and politicians. As a foreigner in Mexico (there legally), you have no more right to criticize its system than you have the right to demand your "freedom of speech" on this web site against the wishes of the administrator or the moderators.

This is more a case of "guilt by association" rather than any evidence of crime.... understand that in Mexico - under their Napoleonic Code - that an accused is guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around. The fact that she was working illegally is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not she was guilty of the crime for which she was convicted. Essentially, she was unable to prove her innocence, therefore, she was deemed to be guilty. In Mexico, the prosecutors have a very easy job. Such a system of "justice" is dangerous anywhere.... but it is particularly dangerous in a country like Mexico where corruption is endemic. At the end of the day... the reason why she was tried and convicted was because a bribe was not paid.

[Rico Rommheim]

Look, if you live ILLEGALLY as she did in a country for ten years, you surrender any right to criticise that country's legal system. She wasn't a desperate refugee or somebody compelled to risk her life to get into Mexico because of the desperation of her economic situation- she was a Canadian who could and should have NOT been in the wrong place at the wrong time. And she got $26k in "severance" (not a "few thousand bucks"), $10k of which she actually tried to reinvest into his Ponzi scheme.

Does she deserve 5 years in prison? No, but unlike the MEXICANS who don't deserve it either, she had no excuse for even being in the damn country.

She was in illegally, no one disagreed with that. But she was never trialed and convicted based on this. She was convicted of money laundering a serious accusation in any country and she was sent to prison not because the court proved she did actually launder money (nothing even suggests this claim) but she couldn't do so.

I personally think she should be given the benefit of the doubt, or at least a decent trial. Did you see what kind of trial she had, it was held in a packed little room inside the prison held.

If you were in her situation I bet you'd be as terrified as she is.

[Waterlooson]

She was in illegally, no one disagreed with that.

Actually, from what I have read, the Mexican authorities have stated no such thing, only that she was working there without a proper visa.... she apparently was living there legally, but didn't have the right to work there.



I personally think she should be given the benefit of the doubt...



Nope... not in Mexico.... that's our system, not theirs, unless you are willing to pay a bribe for it! I have to agree that Mexico's system sucks.

[Rico Rommheim]

Actually, from what I have read, the Mexican authorities have stated no such thing, only that she was working there without a proper visa.... she apparently was living there legally, but didn't have the right to work there.





Nope... not in Mexico.... that's our system, not theirs, unless you are willing to pay a bribe for it! I have to agree that Mexico's system sucks.

So she was in legally but no work visa? If that's true then it changes the entire counter-arguments!

[Waterlooson]

So she was in legally but no work visa? If that's true then it changes the entire counter-arguments!

I don't see how it changes anything... whether she was in the country legally or not doesn't make her culpable for some money laundering crime!!!! They are completely separate issues. Even if she had a visa to work, they would have still convicted her of money laundering/conspiracy.... but they likely wouldn't have touched a Mexican female cook working for that guy.

[Rico Rommheim]

I don't see how it changes anything... whether she was in the country legally or not doesn't make her culpable for some money laundering crime!!!!

That's exactly what I was trying to say, it could of been said clearer.

[Only The Lonely..]

Such a beautiful country; everybody there parks their car on their front lawn.

I was 8 the last time I was there and I knew that Mexico was a crap mill, but that now that i'm a bit older me thinks it might be fun to bet on a cockfight or to participate in some other illicit activity.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Such a beautiful country; everybody there parks their car on their front lawn.

I was 8 the last time I was there and I knew that Mexico was a crap mill, but that now that i'm a bit older me thinks it might be fun to bet on a cockfight or to participate in some other illicit activity.

Brenda Martin must have loved it since was there for ten fucking years and apparently intended to stay there forever.

Nice racist comments by the way- typical Winnipegger.

[Waterlooson]

Brenda Martin must have loved it since was there for ten fucking years and apparently intended to stay there forever.

Well, Mexico definately beats Canada's weather.... it's something they can't screw up. The cost of living can also be extremely cheap. :cool:

Nice racist comments by the way- typical Winnipegger.

Nothing "racist" about his comment.... it's all about Mexican culture and animal cruelty is endemic there.

Sorry furry, but you don't have a clue about Mexico.

[Trantor]

get out of here with your facts! ;)

:haha: :haha: :haha:


people with facts and truths are so annoying!;)

[Trantor]

If there is one high-profile murder case in a foreign country involving Canadians all of a sudden that place is "unsafe" for a couple of years. By those same bizarre standards nowhere in Canada is safe to visit either because Canadians are victims of violent crime every day in some corner of the country.

if I am not mistaken, Canadians hated Brazil for quite a while after two commie canadians (Christine Lamont and David Spencer) were arrested in Brazil, alongside one brazilian, 4 chileans and three argies for the the kidnapping of Abilio Diniz, owner of Pão de Açucar, largest supermarket chain in Brazil. The money would be used to fund the chilean terrorist commie group Movimiento de Izquierda Revolucionaria.

Even so, they were canadians... so... well... canadians werent happy about the injustice of arresting them! They only kidnapped a brazilian!

[Trantor]

Nothing "racist" about his comment.... it's all about Mexican culture and animal cruelty is endemic there.


you are right! They even kill cute seals by clubbing them to death there!

damn mexicans!!
http://weblog.leidenuniv.nl/fdr/1948/mighty_hunter_2006.jpg
http://www.gan.ca/images/photos/sealhunt_18_large.jpg

[mr.John]

Haven't we seen this over and over in past few years... an EX Canadian moves to a different country, and as soon they get into hot water out come the Canadian passports.( I do believe half the people in the middle east are running around with Canadian passports especially Lebanon)

[Trantor]

"In December 1989, Diniz was the victim of a sensational political kidnapping by Sandanista-trained terrorists in Brazil, followed by a police rescue. He was confined for six days in a small space under a house, with a duct leading to the kitchen fan as his only source of oxygen.

During the rescue, police arrested two young Canadians in the house, Christine Lamont and David Spencer. Lamont and Spencer were sentenced to 28 years in prison for their involvement, but were kept in private cells, away from the mass of the prison population. Both protested their innocence, and the Canadian press and public started a major movement to secure their release, straining relations between Brazil and Canada. However, two Canadian investigative journalists, Isabel Vincent of the Globe and Mail and Caroline Mallan of the Toronto Star, wrote books concluding that Lamont and Spencer were likely guilty, and they there were being treated well by Brazilian authorities. Lamont confessed to involvement in the kidnapping, which was meant to raise money for Sandanista guerillas, and the two were released and deported to Canada in 1996."

[Spocket]

Nice racist comments by the way- typical Winnipegger.

Huh !?!?
You know where you can go for that stupid little comment of yours about Winnipeggers.

Apart from that, he didn't say anything remotely racist and people like you need to stop throwing around terms like that every time you see or hear something that you think they might apply to. It's a neat little tactic to try and silence those whose opinions and views you don't agree with but it's nothing more than proof that you can't debate anything intelligently.

Come to think of it, if by your definition of a racist , OnlyTheLonely is one , then wouldn't you be one as well ? Why yes, yes you would. Good thing you obviously don't understand what a racist is.

[artvandelay]

Well, Mexico definately beats Canada's weather.... it's something they can't screw up. The cost of living can also be extremely cheap. :cool:

Nothing "racist" about his comment.... it's all about Mexican culture and animal cruelty is endemic there.

Sorry furry, but you don't have a clue about Mexico.

Typical holier-than-thou North American. There must be an endemic of animal cruelty in Spain, France, South Asia, and all of Latin America then. I guess it's okay for me to make idiotic generalizations about a whole country based on this.

[Waterlooson]

you are right! They even kill cute seals by clubbing them to death there!

damn mexicans!!


Apparently you figure that killing any animal amounts to cruelty.... the main difference with the seal harvest is that it's out in the open vs. being hidden in some abattoir..... Few Canadians actually use seal products.... but I'll bet that you use animal products that came out of an abattoir.:koko: Do you even know how animals are killed in an abattoir or did you figure that they just died a natural death when they walked in through the doors?

Regarding animal cruelty in Mexico.... the development where I live in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico (for 6 months of the year) was having a big problem with packs of feral dogs running wild (up to 30 dogs in the pack) just outside the gate this winter, so we complained to the police about it.... they simply told us that they couldn't do anything about it and that we could just poison the dogs ourselves.... whatever was cool with them. It's extremely idiotic for you to try to equate Canada with Mexico regarding animal abuse/cruelty. Of course, how would you know since you don't live in either country? I live in both.


Your comments regarding the incident in Brazil involving the Canadians is no more valid than what you said regarding the seal hunt.... "Canadians" have never harbored a "hatred" for Brazil or Brazilians. :rolleyes:

[Waterlooson]

Typical holier-than-thou North American. There must be an endemic of animal cruelty in Spain, France, South Asia, and all of Latin America then. I guess it's okay for me to make idiotic generalizations about a whole country based on this.

I can't comment on "Spain, France, South Asia, and all of Latin America".... but I can comment on Mexico since I've lived there the equivalent of 8 years since 1995 and currently own a home there.... do you live in Mexico too? If you don't and never really have (for a substantial time) perhaps you should simply shut the F*** up since you actually don't know what you are talking about! :yes:

[Trantor]

Apparently you figure that killing any animal amounts to cruelty.... the main difference with the seal harvest is that it's out in the open vs. being hidden in some abattoir..... Few Canadians actually use seal products.... but I'll bet that you use animal products that came out of an abattoir.:koko: Do you even know how animals are killed in an abattoir or did you figure that they just died a natural death when they walked in through the doors?

you know... cattle are not WILD animals. You can equalize both. But then we could equalize also the fact that koreans eat dogs... after all, if you equalize the fact that wild seals are killed that way to the fact that cattle are killed in abattoir, then you can equalize also that people also eat dogs in some countries. And yet, I saw plenty of americans and canadians thinking about the barbaric nature of eating dogs.



Regarding animal cruelty in Mexico.... the development where I live in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico (for 6 months of the year) was having a big problem with packs of feral dogs running wild (up to 30 dogs in the pack) just outside the gate this winter, so we complained to the police about it.... they simply told us that they couldn't do anything about it

well, what could they do really? Kill the dogs?


and that we could just poison the dogs ourselves.... whatever was cool with them.

well, you were the ones complaining about the dogs. Apparently, you wanted them killed, or turned into soap, just did not want to see it.



It's extremely idiotic for you to try to equate Canada with Mexico regarding animal abuse/cruelty. Of course, how would you know since you don't live in either country? I live in both.

You live in both and yet understands nothing about Mexico.



Your comments regarding the incident in Brazil involving the Canadians is no more valid than what you said regarding the seal hunt.... "Canadians" have never harbored a "hatred" for Brazil or Brazilians. :rolleyes:

maybe hatred was the wrong word, but obviously, you canadians were complaining about Brazil the same way you are now complaining about Mexico. About our justice system being skewed and barbaric, about the canadians being VICTIMS OF AN UNJUST JUDICIAL SYSTEM, about animal rights in Brazil, etc... :rolleyes:

[artvandelay]

I can't comment on "Spain, France, South Asia, and all of Latin America".... but I can comment on Mexico since I've lived there the equivalent of 8 years since 1995 and currently own a home there.... do you live in Mexico too? If you don't and never really have (for a substantial time) perhaps you should simply shut the F*** up since you actually don't know what you are talking about! :yes:
So nobody can have an opinion about another country unless they live there?:koko:
Anyways, my point was that bull/cockfighting has a history in the areas mentioned and is a part of their culture, and it is ignorant for outsiders to judge there entire population as animal abusers. It is similar to Europeans such as Paul McCartney and his ex-wife coming over here and complaining about the seal hunt when they know nothing about it.

[Waterlooson]

you know... cattle are not WILD animals. You can equalize both. But then we could equalize also the fact that koreans eat dogs... after all, if you equalize the fact that wild seals are killed that way to the fact that cattle are killed in abattoir, then you can equalize also that people also eat dogs in some countries. And yet, I saw plenty of americans and canadians thinking about the barbaric nature of eating dogs.

It's funny that you mentioned cultures where dogs are on the menu, because when I asked a subcontractor who was helping to build my home in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico what his favorite food was, he said "dog meat". :yuck:



well, what could they do really? Kill the dogs?

They (Mexicans) could do what they do in the rest of NA.... that is, have dog catchers take them (the feral dogs) to the the pound.... You couldn't figure that out for yourself?




well, you were the ones complaining about the dogs. Apparently, you wanted them killed, or turned into soap, just did not want to see it.

No, that's not what I wanted... which was to see the Mexican authorities deal with the issue humanely.



...maybe hatred was the wrong word, but obviously, you canadians were complaining about Brazil the same way you are now complaining about Mexico. About our justice system being skewed and barbaric, about the canadians being VICTIMS OF AN UNJUST JUDICIAL SYSTEM, about animal rights in Brazil, etc... :rolleyes:

You are grossly mischaracterizing the Canadian public's reaction to the incident in Brazil (this Mexican situation is much bigger and IMO it will affect tourism to Mexico)... and I have never read or seen anythng regarding "animal rights in Brazil" in the popular Canadian media .... BTW, because they were Canadian citizens, the Government of Canada had an obligation to see that they were dealt with fairly in accordance to the laws of Brazil and any treaties that they had signed that were relevant to the issue. Are you purporting that foreigners have always been treated fairly by the Brazilian authorities? What does Brazil do when its citizens get in trouble in a foreign land? Just say to hell with them, they are on their own? That sounds rather uncaring to me.... perhaps Brazilian citizenship isn't worth very much, I don't know.

At any rate, according the UN, Brazil's criminal justice system should be overhauled:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=24677&Cr=brazil&Cr1=

Here's an excerpt: "Brazil’s police engage frequently in extrajudicial executions and many moonlight in death squads or militias involved in racketeering, an independent United Nations human rights expert said today, calling for wholesale reform of the country’s culture of policing.
Philip Alston, the Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, said in a statement detailing his preliminary observations after conducting an 11-day visit to Brazil that its prisons are also severely overcrowded, leading to riots and numerous killings by both guards and inmates....

While the two Canadians you named were indeed guilty, it would seem that the concern expressed by the Canadian government and some Canadian-based journalists (not to mention the family members) was also valid.... regarding the prison conditions at the very least.

You are making stuff up as you go and the Brazilian case (which you were the first to bring up) had nothing to do with the subject of this thread.... shame on you! :koko:

You seem to have adopted a rather unfortunate anti-Canadian stance in general since Canadians don't seem to hold the Brazilian justice system up on a pedestal... from what I have read in the international media, that should be understandable - even for you!

[Waterlooson]

So nobody can have an opinion about another country unless they live there?:koko:


Any one can have an opinion on any topic.... the point that I was making regarded the fact that people who live in a given country tend to have a more informed opinion about that country than someone else who doesn't and has never lived in (or even visited) the place.

[boden]

My mother always told me " you are judged by the company you keep".
That said I hope she can come home to Canada soon. It is a very sad situation.

[vid]

They (Mexicans) could do what they do in the rest of NA.... that is, have dog catchers take them (the feral dogs) to the the pound.... You couldn't figure that out for yourself?

But when they get to the pound they're usually put down anyway, so it's just hiding the act from the public.

[Waterlooson]

But when they get to the pound they're usually put down anyway, so it's just hiding the act from the public.

Lethal injection (at the pound) vs. poison bait or a bullet to the guts (out in the field).... it's all the same to you, eh? :shrug:

Then again, some dogs do get adopted from the pound.

[vid]

You're spinning my words to make me look cold-hearted on an internet forum. :)

I was just saying, either way, the animal dies.

[Waterlooson]

You're spinning my words to make me look cold-hearted on an internet forum. :)

I was just saying, either way, the animal dies.

I didn't spin your words, I asked a question.... then you suggested the affirmative.... it is all the same to you.

We all understand that this is an Internet forum.

[vid]

It is the same in that the dog ends up being dead, yes.

[Boris2k7]

I.... I had to...

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9094/tim1fi0.gif

[Trantor]

blah blah blah DOGS blah blah

Vid already answered it.


You are grossly mischaracterizing the Canadian public's reaction to the incident in Brazil

Am I? :rolleyes:


BTW, because they were Canadian citizens, the Government of Canada had an obligation to see that they were dealt with fairly in accordance to the laws of Brazil and any treaties that they had signed that were relevant to the issue.

that was not the issue. The issue was that you never believed it was a fair trial, you thought they were innocent.


Are you purporting that foreigners have always been treated fairly by the Brazilian authorities?

Yes... foreigners are usually much better treated than brazilians themselves.


What does Brazil do when its citizens get in trouble in a foreign land?

Well, there are some brazilians condemned to death in some east asian countries for drug trafficking, etc. We believe in their justice system. At least, I rarely hear such an outcry from brazilians regarding other countries justice system. And if there is an outcry, I wont bash that country and automatically think it sucks, like you are doing here.

As if there never was anyone wrongly arrested in Canada (or even condemned to death, in US)



Just say to hell with them, they are on their own? That sounds rather uncaring to me.... perhaps Brazilian citizenship isn't worth very much, I don't know.

In my opinion, a citizen of my country is worth as much as a citizen of ANY OTHER COUNTRY. It seems you think people from your country are more worthy than people from other countries.


At any rate, according the UN, Brazil's criminal justice system should be overhauled:

Imho, the penitentiary system, which is fucked up in Brazil, is not the same as the justice system. Almost everything you mention is about the penitentiary system.

as for extrajudicial executions, obviously, they are not part of the justice system :rolleyes: nor of any legal system.

the major problem with the brazilian judicial system is that we have the most lightweight penalties in the world.


Prisons suck because of lack of money to build better and more prisons. What do you want? Its a poor country after all. And prisons cust LOTS OF MONEY. Ask your southern neighbors.

But in Brazil, people will never stay enough in prison anyway. The canadian couple itself was released after only 5 years!





While the two Canadians you named were indeed guilty, it would seem that the concern expressed by the Canadian government and some Canadian-based journalists (not to mention the family members) was also valid.... regarding the prison conditions at the very least.

yes, that was valied, but we all know the main concern was that they were innocent, and that Brazil was evil and trying to lockup the innocent canadians for some 3rd worldish unknown reason.

also, I am sure the canadian consulate could have checked the conditions in which they were imprisoned... but you prefered to complain about it until FINALLY some reporters came and saw the conditions were adequate.



You are making stuff up as you go and the Brazilian case (which you were the first to bring up) had nothing to do with the subject of this thread.... shame on you! :koko:

:rolleyes:

1- it has everything to do with this case... that is... how the canadian public is propense to automatically think canadians arrested in 3rd world countries are INNOCENTS abused by corrupt justice systems that want canadians arrested only for unknown reasons.

2 - I am not making up anything

3 - shame on YOU.



You seem to have adopted a rather unfortunate anti-Canadian stance

are you sure you are not an american living in Canada? You are acting like one :haha: :haha:


besides, who are you to blame anyone on being "anti-canadian", when your instance in this thread is clearly anti-mexican?



in general since Canadians don't seem to hold the Brazilian justice system up on a pedestal...

for the very wrong reasons it seems.

[drew]

that is... how the canadian public is propense to automatically think canadians arrested in 3rd world countries are INNOCENTS

yes, that is what we assume. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how the system works here.

[Trantor]

yes, that is what we assume. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how the system works here.

Bullshit and you know that. One thing is the system (which is the SAME in Brazil, innocent until proven gulty).



Another one is to DOUBT the person is guilty even after it was proven in trial that they were guilty, just because the trial was not in Canada... or if they were CAUGHT in action.

Thats what I am talking about, not a legal system technicality.

If a serial killer is caught in Canada, is there a public outcry to release him, just because until the trial, he is considered NOT GUILTY? No, thats NOT how the system works, so what you are saying is NONSENSE.

[drew]

Bullshit and you know that. One thing is the system (which is the SAME in Brazil, innocent until proven gulty).

Another one is to DOUBT the person is guilty even after it was proven in trial that they were guilty, just because the trial was not in Canada... or if they were CAUGHT in action.

Thats what I am talking about, not a legal system technicality.

If a serial killer is caught in Canada, is there a public outcry to release him, just because until the trial, he is considered NOT GUILTY? No, thats NOT how the system works, so what you are saying is NONSENSE.

No, what I am saying is not nonsense, that is the system here. I was just retorting your comment about Canadians assuming people charged with crimes are innocent. Yes we do.

Whether or not someone is released prior to their trial is up to the courts to decide. If a judge feels that public safety is jeopardized (based on evidence), or there is a flight risk, the suspect is kept in custody. If not, they wait it out at home.

[Waterlooson]

^^^ It's a waste of time attempting to reason with Trantor... because some in the Canadian media questioned Brazil's justice system many years ago... all Canadians are obviously biased against Brazil.... we're all simply no good up here. ;)

Actually, I have a soft spot in my heart for Brazil because I invested big $ in EWZ about 5 years ago:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EWZ&t=5y

Make more money for me Trantor.... you've been slacking off lately, so go back to work because you are my slave.:whip::D

[Trantor]

No, what I am saying is not nonsense

yes, it is.


that is the system here.

and in Brazil too.


I was just retorting your comment about Canadians assuming people charged with crimes are innocent. Yes we do.

STOP MAKING PUNNY EXCUSES.

One thing is to legally assume inocense. Another thing is to HAVE A PUBLIC OUTCRY against the justice system of another country, because YOU assume the person is innocent only because the person is canadian.

You guys thought the canadian couple was innocent AFTER IT JUDGED GUILTY in Brazil. THAT IS BULLSHIT FROM YOU.


Whether or not someone is released prior to their trial is up to the courts to decide. If a judge feels that public safety is jeopardized (based on evidence), or there is a flight risk, the suspect is kept in custody. If not, they wait it out at home.

http://sf.startupweekend.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/o_rly.jpg



btw... keyword is flight risk. Guess why Mexico has kept her captive till now. She would probably just flee the country. And countries NEVER deport their own citizens to face judgements in other countries.

[Waterlooson]

And countries NEVER deport their own citizens to face judgements in other countries.

Wrong, yet again! Canada does indeed surrender its own citizens to face judgements in other counties.... the process is called "extradition". Do some research in the future... then maybe you will have a clue:


http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResources/CriminalLaw/tabid/340/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/99/Extradition-Law--Canada.aspx

[Trantor]

can you give examples of canadian citizens extradited to another country for commiting crimes only in that country?

extradition for such reasons exist, but are RARELY applied.

it doesnt matter. Mexico thinks she might flee. Its not your role to think Mexico justice system is wrong.

and if you dont like Mexico, sell your property there and never return. Simple.

[Waterlooson]

can you give examples of canadian citizens extradited to another country for commiting crimes only in that country?

Easy.... here's a Canadian that was extradited to Mexico:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/08/17/ot-boily-070817.html

The fact that Canada would do this suggests that Canada has confidence in Mexico's legal system. See, you were wrong yet again. And BTW, according to the article, "Amnesty International has criticized Mexico's justice system for flaws that include specific cases of torture."


Its not your role to think Mexico justice system is wrong.

and if you dont like Mexico, sell your property there and never return. Simple.

I can think whatever I want about the Mexican justice system.... Is there a reason why you don't understand that? Is it because you live in Brazil and you can summarily be thrown in prison if you do that?

It's not your place to tell me what I may and may not think... :rolleyes:

Trantor, you are coming across as a nut case with a big chip on your shoulder. :koko: You might consider using your time more productively.... can't you take your machete and go cut some cane?

Here's an interesting article on slavery in Brazil:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3908271.stm

[Waterlooson]

Martin is back in Canada.... just landed at the Region of Waterloo Airport.

[vid]

Martin is back in Canada.... just landed at the Region of Waterloo Airport.

But she'll have to take a cab because it has no bus service. :O

[e909]

But she'll have to take a cab because it has no bus service. :O

Or be transported straight the prison, do not pass go, etc, without collecting $100.

[Delirium]

i was watching on the news last night her return to canada - on a privately chartered jet.

is this typically how we transport convicted fellons? any reason why she couldn't fly coach with a guard next to her?

curious as to how much that would cost taxpayers and how frequent that happens.

[vid]

In Northern Ontario, because the government refuses to spend an extra 5,000,000$ to provide proper prisons on remote first nations, pays about 500,000$ a week to transport prisoners, on chartered planes, one at a time, to Kenora to serve their sentence.

This is fitting with much of their plan for aboriginal affairs, however. Why pay 2 billion dollars once to relocate Kashechewan and avoid flooding when we can just pay half a billion every year for eternity?