[flar]

SSP:Local Hamilton used to be enjoyable to read and a great source of information. Lately it's just a great source of information. We've welcomed many new members over the last few months who are making valuable contributions. I enjoy the diversity of opinions, however, some members are not expressing opinions but trolling. This makes the board painful to read.

from Wikipedia: An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion

SSP forum rules:

* One account per person.
* No anti-social behavior, trolling, spamming, etc.
* Third-party articles and images must be properly formatted and credited.
* No illegal activity.
* No commercial postings without prior approval.


Can we all agree to stop the anti-social behaviour, trolling, personal insults and ideological bickering?

There is a simple solution to all this: courteousness and mutual respect. There will be disagreements, simply proceed with valid arguments based on facts and evidence. I hope that mature individuals can still argue without resorting to ad hominem attacks and name calling. If you can't come up with convincing arguments, agree to disagree. And finally, don't feed the trolls.

[SteelTown]

It's this constant back and forth bickering that's been developing over the last few months and now it's spreading to other threads.

For me I respect all opinions, I may disagree with them but we live in a free world where one isn't forced to have one viewpoint.

If this continues on I’m afraid the mods will have to step in and take strict non-tolerance actions soon and no one will benefit from this.

[raisethehammer]

excellent post flar.
this is a great website and discussion forum. Let's all do our part to keep it that way.

I'd also like to add that we need to do a SSP meet-up sometime soon.
I think meeting each other in person also helps to develop better relationships and respect for each other.

[holymoly]

excellent post flar.
this is a great website and discussion forum. Let's all do our part to keep it that way.

I'd also like to add that we need to do a SSP meet-up sometime soon.
I think meeting each other in person also helps to develop better relationships and respect for each other.

I agree all around. Has there never been an SSP Hamilton meet-up? (I had the impression you guys knew each other pretty well.)

[coalminecanary]

There has been lots of talk of meeting on the roof of the Tap House but they are so behind on construction... at this rate we'll have to do it urban exploration style.

I thought civic drinks night at PJC might be a good place to have a greet. Lots of other urban hamilton lovers would be there ... and could be lured onto SSP :-)

[DC83]

You're awesome, Flar!!

Sometimes if I miss a day (rare, I know haha), I have to scroll through a whole page, sometimes two, just to read a relevant post. It's pretty frustrating.

"baiting other users into an emotional response" ... I'm glad you highlighted this point. It seems there are a cpl individuals who target one particular forumer who they KNOW they'll get a reaction from. That's why we should ignore these posts.

It's been so rediculous as of late that moderators have had to step in and delete irrelevant posts... then the trolls wonder why. People have been banned from this site in the past, and I don't think SSP.com mods are all that hesitant to ban more trouble makers.

I know it seems childish, but we should report these posts (esp ones that use profanity or personal insults) to mods. This way we can get back to reading useful info and share our ideas on how we can make Hamilton a better place for everyone to live AND visit :)

[BrianE]

Might I suggest a few easy guidlines that could help a person when posting a reply to a topic.

1. If your reply consists of one 3 word sentence, don't bother posting it, it's safe to say you're not contributing somthing.

2. The following is a list of words and phrases that should tip you off that your post is offensive, and not constructive to the conversation. Therefore, don't bother posting it.

- "You people" or "you guys" or "Youse Guys"
- "Hitler", "Nazi", "fascist"
- "don't make me laugh" or "Laff!"
- "Idiot"
- "Moron"
- "Brain dead"
- "Typical Left Wing" or "Typical Right Wing"

There's plenty others, maybe we can start a list.

BTW these are all words that have been taken directly from posts written by users in this forum.

[realcity]

ahhh... "moron" is one of my fav words... How can I talk about Kathy Drewitt now?

[coalminecanary]

from http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-morans.htm ...
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/f/f/get_a_brain_morans.jpg

[DC83]

ahhh... "moron" is one of my fav words... How can I talk about Kathy Drewitt now?

HAHAHA I'm pretty sure Kathy Drewitt is a synonym for 'moron'!

Example in a sentence "That Kathy Drewitt wants to turn Gore Park into a parking lot!"

I think he means using 'moron' towards other forumers.

[raisethehammer]

from http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-morans.htm ...
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/f/f/get_a_brain_morans.jpg

haha...I love that.
I seem to recall seeing this pic before...wasn't it a big rally before a WWF match back in the day when Brett Hart was ticking off all the yanks as part of his shtick??

[Millstone]

I would appreciate if some people stop making snide remarks about how I "must" like Wendy's and Subway because I like a quiet suburban work environment, for a start.

[matt602]

There's some hot spot topics that create trolling but for the most part I don't really think there's a problem. Some of us just need to learn not to take the bait in those situations.

[JT Jacobs]

^Snide remarks are out of order, to be sure. However, many posters are overly sensitive and petty. Offense need not be continually taken over trivialities. We need to recognize that posts are opinion. The more informed and critical this opinion is, the better. Let's all try to develop thicker skins, hmm?

[Jon Dalton]

"But if I just argue a bit harder, maybe the other guy will realize that he's wrong."

[matt602]

If the internet has taught me anything, that tactic NEVER works. Why? Cause you can't intimidate someone with words on a screen.

[JT Jacobs]

If the internet has taught me anything, that tactic NEVER works. Why? Cause you can't intimidate someone with words on a screen.

It's not about that anyway. It's about rational discussion, passionately and respectfully delivered. It isn't about browbeating or bludgeoning someone over the head until they say 'uncle.' It has to have only one 'agenda' (if any): to combine as many ideas from as many perspectives as possible for the greater good of the community. From the array of ideas a few excellent ones will emerge, but only with the help and collaboration of all ideas and perspectives.

[BCTed]

excellent post flar.
this is a great website and discussion forum. Let's all do our part to keep it that way.


Why don't you make an honest effort to practice what you preach? I really think you have to sit down one day and objectively evaluate what your true contribution is to this board.

[JT Jacobs]

Why don't you make an honest effort to practice what you preach? I really think you have to sit down one day and objectively evaluate what your true contribution is to this board.

Why don't both of you take your petty little feud off of the public airwaves. I don't like to speak for others, but I'll wager that most of us have had way more than enough. Why do you feel the need to bicker publicly?

Can we just talk about the issues that face Hamilton?

[raisethehammer]

Why don't both of you take your petty little feud off of the public airwaves. I don't like to speak for others, but I'll wager that most of us have had way more than enough. Why do you feel the need to bicker publicly?

Can we just talk about the issues that face Hamilton?

with all due respect, that's exactly what I am doing. I've seen his post sitting there like the usual bait, and I'm not taking it.
I'm more than happy to keep this forum about Hamilton and it's various issues.

[JT Jacobs]

with all due respect, that's exactly what I am doing. I've seen his post sitting there like the usual bait, and I'm not taking it.
I'm more than happy to keep this forum about Hamilton and it's various issues.

Fair enough. Thanks for keeping things on track.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Now we're concerning ourselves with staying on track on a thread about that exact topic?

Civility has been gone from this Forum for ages--I've beaten that drum so many times that it finally broke and I had to take up pottery to occupy my time. I am all for a greater level of civility and less personal animosity.

With that in mind--the entire issue of "trolling" is wildly overstated in the context of this Forum. I have seen only a few instances of actual "troll" behavior--barely enough to warrant even a mention. Nonetheless, a recent tactic has been to accuse those who simply dissent of being trolls--which is utterly and completely ridiculous and counter-democratic. If I were to come on board and make a statement about organized labor or the political situation in the Middle East that was blatantly biased and designed to illicit a particular response--that would be trolling. When 100 posters say one thing and I come on to counter that--that isn't trolling--that's an argument.

[HAMRetrofit]

Goldfinger and BCTed if you just posted more like Fastcarsfreedom these threads would be a better place. Although I may not agree with many of Fastcarsfreedom's posts I can respect that he has enough patience to present his arguments clearly and pragmatically. I understand that we all share different views here but if we try to advance the discussion with more explanation and respect for other's point of view perhaps we will have an easier time getting a more neutral debate going.

[BCTed]

with all due respect, that's exactly what I am doing. I've seen his post sitting there like the usual bait, and I'm not taking it.
I'm more than happy to keep this forum about Hamilton and it's various issues.

Don't reflect this back onto me. I was referring specifically to you and your contribution on this board --- you have already repeatedly let me know that I am a troll and contribute nothing. I have already gone on and on defending myself anyway --- at this point, I can almost re-type my past defensive posts verbatim.

Here is my take on you: You are one of the most offputting characters I have come across on the Internet in a long time and the way that I have seen you treating certain people other than myself on this board corroborates my opinion. If you would soften your stance and stop being so grossly intolerant and entirely dismissive of viewpoints other than your own, I would have little incentive to go back and forth with you all the time.

Given that you will not be taking this "bait", I am happy to have the last word between us in this thread.

[BCTed]

Goldfinger and BCTed if you just posted more like Fastcarsfreedom these threads would be a better place. Although I may not agree with many of Fastcarsfreedom's posts I can respect that he has enough patience to present his arguments clearly and pragmatically. I understand that we all share different views here but if we try to advance the discussion with more explanation and respect for other's point of view perhaps we will have an easier time getting a more neutral debate going.

I am happy to have Goldfinger on board as a member and I like his posts, but I have quite a different style than he does and I am disappointed that you cannot seem to tell the difference. Goldy's approach is much more raw than is mine. I have respect for the points of view of others and have never hurled insults or harsh language at anyone, with the exception of two words I used to describe raisethehammer.

It is really always me who has been attacked for presenting different points of view. Goodness, I got absolutely roasted for presenting reasons why people might choose to live in the suburbs without ever saying what my thoughts were on those reasons. The same was true for light rail --- I am on the fence with it, but I presented opinions of others on why light rail may not work and got creamed. I could go on and on some more, but have already gone on and on enough for now.

[BCTed]

Why don't both of you take your petty little feud off of the public airwaves. I don't like to speak for others, but I'll wager that most of us have had way more than enough. Why do you feel the need to bicker publicly?

Can we just talk about the issues that face Hamilton?


Sorry that you have gotten caught in the crossfire, but flar created this thread in hopes of creating an environment of "courteousness and mutual respect", and if there was ever a thread to air things out, this is it. I believe that raisethehammer is neither courteous nor respectful in many, many, many instances and I am not just referring to posts that involve our petty little feud. He may be passionate about downtown Hamilton, but that does not give him licence to carry on the way he often does.

[BCTed]

I am starting to go on and on again, but just read the below post and then the reply it got back from raisethehammer a couple of posts down:http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=3466052#post3466052

Was raisethehammer really baited into calling what I wrote a "lame rebuttal"? Was I trolling?

I have tried several times to make peace with this guy and have even somehow confused myself into believing that I was overly harsh with him, but the result has always been the same.

I confess that my ratio of feud:non-feud posts has gotten unreasonably high in recent weeks/months, but I have difficulty reading his endless posts about idiots and morons and crybabies and scum developers and useless politicians and clueless suburbanites without being stirred into action.

[Millstone]

Why don't you make an honest effort to practice what you preach? I really think you have to sit down one day and objectively evaluate what your true contribution is to this board.

Seconded.

[HAMRetrofit]

I am happy to have Goldfinger on board as a member and I like his posts, but I have quite a different style than he does and I am disappointed that you cannot seem to tell the difference. Goldy's approach is much more raw than is mine.

I can tell the difference, let me assure you. To clarify just look at Fastcarfreedom's posts he actually presents his case. I may never agree with a post you make but at least if you make a valid argument you may come off as someone worth listening too. Another thing to consider, if you post something you know that 90 percent of the people support and feel strongly about expect to get blasted. If you are going to do that at least bring facts to support your argument because obviously people are going to be hard on you.

If I walked into the National Rifle Association and advocated for gun registration what do you think the outcome would be?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Interesting discussion--I think this discourse is all very healthy and hopefully will lead to more constructive discussion here.

The only point I would add HAMRetrofit is that in my experience with SkyscraperPage it's a development information-related Forum--I don't believe anywhere that it is branded as the exclusive domain of any particular political or ideological group. Therefore, though your NRA example is an effective illustration--it suggests that this Forum is somehow the proprietary domain of a particular group--which I don't believe is the case. RTH for example, runs a separate site which is quite obviously an agenda-driven site which works to extend his particular vision forward. If I were to take my dissenting opinions there--I think I could, in fairness, expect to be "blasted." Nonetheless SkyscraperPage is, and should remain, more free-form. There are all sorts of posters of all sorts of backgrounds here--some with agendas--and some, Flar comes to mind, who are simply rich with talent.

[BCTed]

I can tell the difference, let me assure you. To clarify just look at Fastcarfreedom's posts he actually presents his case. I may never agree with a post you make but at least if you make a valid argument you may come off as someone worth listening too. Another thing to consider, if you post something you know that 90 percent of the people support and feel strongly about expect to get blasted. If you are going to do that at least bring facts to support your argument because obviously people are going to be hard on you.

If I walked into the National Rifle Association and advocated for gun registration what do you think the outcome would be?

As far as I know, this is an open forum and is not comparable to the NRA.

I believe I know how to present an argument. I have presented link after link and fact after fact in the past, but it never got me anywhere. What do people remember? They (incorrectly) remember that I stated that there is no truck traffic on Main Street and they use that as a point of reference for discrediting anything and everything I say. raisethehammer in particular has a weird revisionist way of taking things I have said in the past and completely misparaphrasing them.

It is one thing to be the only man in a room to hold a certain opinion --- it is quite another to be attacked and given inappropriate and insulting labels for simply holding that opinion. There is little give and take here. I do have respect for the opinions of others and have no trouble conceding points. I am ready to acknowledge my errors if I am proven to be wrong about something. However, I find it incredibly difficult to have even minute subsets of my own arguments acknowledged. Every little point gets shot down as if it were the most ridiculous thing ever stated.

I realize that my posts are not always a picnic to read --- I have readily conceded that on multiple occasions --- but let me insulate myself from the discussion for now. A number of people on this forum make it difficult for me to read and participate in this forum and I have no problem with pointing out raisethehammer as my prime example. I find him to be rude and hostile and intolerant. I also find him to be flat-out bigoted in many ways (against suburbanites, et cetera). He has tried to have me blackballed on at least one occasion for simply arguing my opinion and has dismissed much of what I have said as a "waste of time".

I like to think that my time counts for something too, and I do not think it is well spent reading raisethehammer's endless venom.

[raisethehammer]

fastcars....not that it matters, but I don't run RTH.
Maybe I should change my screen name. You're the second person here who thought that. lol.

[fastcarsfreedom]

It's an easy assumption--in fact I based upon past postings and comments that eluded to the fact that you were, at the very least, closely associated with the site. Nevertheless, I stand by the gist of what I said--that is, that I could expect a site that is so clearly motivated by a particular worldview to be hostile--whereas this one, at least by definition, ought to be more open--hence the name "Forum". Speaking of Forum--Go Habs.

[HAMRetrofit]

Regarding the NRA analogy, what would give an individual insight that they are completely anti gun registration? Within their group I am sure that there is some discussion of its plausibility. They are an association of gun owners that may or may not lobby for or against that particular piece of legislation.

The key point is personal insight. I think we are all smart people here. I think that we are intelligent enough to have insight into the perspective of the majority of the group. For example, in a thread discussing rapid transit posting anti rapid transit rhetoric will get blasted, it is not rocket science. If an individual is going to post an opinion completely against the grain just bring a constructive argument to expand the conversation. Still expect others to disagree strongly with you regardless of the facts your present most people cannot be swayed one way or the other regardless.

[rousseau]

If an individual is going to post an opinion completely against the grain just bring a constructive argument to expand the conversation.
I know I'm just a lurker, but I thought I'd chime in here: You keep on repeating the canard that BCTed does not present constructive arguments, but that is simply not true. He does.

What he does not do, however, is appease the group on this forum who dislike what he has to say. He is not conciliatory enough to you and others on this board who appear to represent (or wish to represent) the orthodoxy viz. the suburbs, mass transit, downtown etc.

All of which is interesting from a spectator's perspective. I agree that the initial post in this thread is overblown: did one expect hand-holding and kumbayas? In my view public forums should be held to a modicum of decorum, to be sure, but disagreement is their raison d'etre. Straight information dissemination is for company memos.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Excellent post rousseau--your input is valuable. Ted has been attacked various times for presenting a point-of-view that is "against the grain" within the context of this Forum. There have been times he has used the blunt insturment to make his points--but in no different a way than various other frequent contributors do to have their own arguments heard. Dissent is good--it's healthy and necessary--the arguments I engage in ulitmately make the message stronger--that's what debate is about. Though I believe calling the Forum's state "critical" is sheer hyperbole--the modicum of respect and decency you mention has eroded--and there have been times I've been tempted to throw my own committment to respect on the woodpile and come out all guns ablaze. In the end I think the exercise that is this particular thread will serve to be a positive one--at least that's my hope.

[HAMRetrofit]

If someone is going to be blunt and post something they know everyone is going to dismiss they are just wasting their time and others. If they cared enough for anyone to see their point of view in the first place they would explain themselves. Otherwise they are just stirring the shit.

I think we are way to tolerant to garbage like this in the Hamilton threads. Go try this in some of the Alberta threads and see the response you get.

[the dude]

seriously, it took bcted months to admit that there might be an occasional truck on york/cannon. in fact, they're continuous along that particular route. before my departure, i walked those streets daily and can attest to the truck traffic but, naturally, he would have none of it. that's the type of argument he brings to the forum. i also recall him trying to suggest that lrt takes more lives than the automobile. please now. i hate rehashing these sorts of things but as another poster has stated, he loves stirring the shit. 'what, me?' he says. 'i didn't do anything.'

[BCTed]

I know I'm just a lurker, but I thought I'd chime in here: You keep on repeating the canard that BCTed does not present constructive arguments, but that is simply not true. He does.


Thanks for the backing!

[BCTed]

duplicate post

[BCTed]

seriously, it took bcted months to admit that there might be an occasional truck on york/cannon. in fact, they're continuous along that particular route. before my departure, i walked those streets daily and can attest to the truck traffic but, naturally, he would have none of it.

Absolutely untrue. I never denied that trucks exist, nor did I ever waiver or change my tune after "months." I simply stated that I have not seen the kind of insane truck traffic that many people claim to see, and I still have not. It may well exist, but I have not seen it. So sue me.



i also recall him trying to suggest that lrt takes more lives than the automobile. please now.

I do not recall exactly what I posted, but it was not something that I suggested, but rather it was part of something that I found on the Web [it was sourced] and presented forward for discussion. It may have had to do with numbers that suggested that the accident rate for light rail was higher per passenger mile than was that of other forms of transit, but I may well be wrong.

I challenge you to find anything that I have ever said that was flat-out incorrect without acknowledging my error.

i hate rehashing these sorts of things but as another poster has stated, he loves stirring the shit. 'what, me?' he says. 'i didn't do anything.'

Absolutely untrue once again. I have confessed numerous times (far too many, really --- I have never really done anything wrong or disrespected anyone) to being overly aggressive and I have attempted to make peace each time. I have also readily admitted to stirring things up, but I make no apologies for that --- as I have stated many, many times, if everyone on here were in complete agreement about everything, the whole forum would amoount to a giant monologue.

I believe that the treatment I have received is much, much worse than the treatment I have given (I do not laugh people off or outright dismiss them), but I have gone over my behaviour a zillion times. Let's insulate me from the argument for once --- I believe I have demonstrated that I am willing to budge.

I believe that the way raisethehammer's tone and the way he presents arguments and the way that he treats people on here on a daily basis is much, much worse than the way I have ever treated anyone. The fact that he refuses to ever acknowledge anything and refuses to take this "troll bait" of mine suggests to me that nothing will ever change with him and that I am, to use one of his favourite phrases, "wasting my time." The only time I have ever seen him budge (I think) was when I called him out for comparing the collapse of that Lister building to WTC 7.

And with that, perhaps I should stop wasting my own time and posting in this thread. It seems that I have gotten nowhere once again, but at least I have received affirmation from a few people that I am not delusional.

[SteelTown]

Can't we just ignore post and quit the bickering?

[raisethehammer]

sorry Flar...this thread was a great idea, but it's not heading where you wanted.
Time to kil it.
I'll toss my final two cents in.
Different opinions are allowed on any topic in any thread.
One basic rule is to learn to differentiate between one's opinion vs. an actually supported, fact-based point. Many on here regularly quote some 'light' research in the form of articles, real estate info, urban development news from abroad etc....

others simply come on and say "I like this" or "I don't lik that".
It's just an opinion.
I've been guilty more than once of trying to persuase someone to change their opinion, but clearly that's not going to happen.
I like posters like Steeltown and Flar who provide a good mix of research/valuable info and personal opinion.
In fact, I'm not sure why anyone would even come on here and never bring something valuable to the discussion other than one sentence phrases, but people do so let's just leave it at that.

As far as comments directed towards me, I feel no need to go back through my comments and remind the board of the various scoops, researched info and well-thought out ideas I bring to the board.
I have responded in haste too many times to trolly-style posts and I'll be sure to cut back on that and do my part to keep this discussion upbeat, positive and about the Hammer.

[realcity]

this thread is gay

[block43]

this thread is straight!

[raisethehammer]

this thread is dead!

[flar]

Actually this is good, I hoped this thread could be a place to air things out. The forum had been much better the last few days. I hope everyone keeps posting more considered (and considerate) posts.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm with Flar, I don't see what gone so suddenly awry with this thread--in fact, this is healthy discussion--it is far from time to "kill it"--I fail to see what the objective of that would be.

[rousseau]

.
In fact, I'm not sure why anyone would even come on here and never bring something valuable to the discussion other than one sentence phrases, but people do so let's just leave it at that.
There's this thing called the intarwebs. People should be working, but they procrastinate. Then someone says something that's, like, wrong, so you gotta make sure they know.

[markbarbera]

The first two posts by Flar and Steeltown are bang-on on how this SSP should be handled, and I had hoped others would heed the word and start contributing positively to the discussion, regardless of what side of the discussion you find yourself on. Unfortunately t didn't take long for this discussion to take a downward turn. If nothing else, the last page or so contains some fine examples of the kinds of posts that are that are diminishing the quality of the SSP.

I have found myself sucked into the downward spiral of otherwise healthy discussion threads on several occasions. Of late, I have been making a conscious effort to ignore all the red herrings and straw men being strewn about in many of the threads in this SSP. Now, when a posting is made strictly to get in a jab at someone (i.e. namecalling or belittling another poster's opinion), I simply ignore the bait and let it slide. It really isn't worth the effort. If it is blatent harassment, I'll report it to a moderator so they can deal with it.

People making those kinds of comments are looking for a reaction. If they don't get the reaction they are anticipating, they'll wander off to harass people somewhere else on the net. And our discussions can return to that which is relevant to the thread, and the quality of the SSP will return.

[chris k]

Perhaps we can vote on a "Hamilton section" moderator to keep the peace in this section. More strict punishments such as bannings and not being allowed to post in certain sections are some of the things i have seen in other forums.

If we cannot decide on a Hamilton member to control it becuase of "biases" or taking sides, we could look outside at another member.

Sorry if this is coming across to strong but i beleive that punishments will stop this kind of behaviour.

Cheers

[raisethehammer]

I'm with Flar, I don't see what gone so suddenly awry with this thread--in fact, this is healthy discussion--it is far from time to "kill it"--I fail to see what the objective of that would be.

of course you feel that way because you and BCTed have been dominating the discussion and perpetuating the arguing.
If Realcity, Retrofit or I were the ones prolonging this "discussion" you'd be on here telling the world how ashamed you are to even exist on the same planet as us.
It's time for ALL of us to end this us vs. them mentality and just co-exist on the board with the purpose of discussing the Hammer and related news.
People who hate Hamilton can go start their own page with skulls and crossbones everywhere, speaking about the doom of the Hammer.
SSP is here to discuss development and economic/cultural issues around the world.
Let's all work together so our page doesn't become an embarassment and poor reflection of our city.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I am actually speechless...seriously, utterly, speechless. I have called for civility countless times--I applauded the creation of this thread--I have said time and again that I think this discourse is healthy--and yet, I am accused of "perpetuating the arguing?"

I don't ever expect to change your mind on the issues we discuss--just as I assume you don't intend or expect to change mine--nonetheless, disagreeing with you--or any of the other posters you included in your bloc, doesn't make me or anyone else a troll, or someone who's here to harass anyone--as opposed to bickering I actually put genuine thought and effort into what I bring to this Forum and applaud anyone else who does--whatever their opinions may be.

How can you justify dividing people into blocs--as you did in your post--and alternately suggest that we end "Us Vs. Them" bickering? That is a serious question--not one I'm posing to illicit a reaction.

And no my friend, I would not be saying I was embarassed to share the planet with you--or anyone else--and I don't appreciate the insinuation to the contrary which contradicts the whole point of this discussion--which is bringing acrimony to an end.

As for "Hamilton Haters" I've yet to meet one here--on any side of any debate. Moreover, I am certain given my past contributions to this site that that particular comment was not directed at me personally--because nothing could be further from the truth.

If you really want civility--then we want the same thing.

[Mike K.]

Perhaps we can vote on a "Hamilton section" moderator to keep the peace in this section.I think this is a good idea.

Please discuss.

I'll be monitoring this section for a while in response to the desire to have some oversight, but what's really needed is a local mod familiar with this section and its members.

Please remember that the admins do take issues of derailing threads or bait-and-hook situations seriously and can either suspend or ban individuals who continuously engage in conduct not conducive to a respectful discussion environment. If anyone experiences derailing discussions please report the post via the post reporting tool and either ad admin or a global moderator will step in.

[raisethehammer]

I think it's a great idea.

[SteelTown]

A local mod would be a good step forward. A local mod is always better in my opinion.

[markbarbera]

I agree. And I think Steeltown would make an excellent moderator.

Mike K, glad to hear discussion derailments and bait-and-hook situations are taken so seriously by the moderators of SSP. IMO that's exactly what is making Hamilton SSP suffer of late, and would love to see them curtailed. I will do my bit and report any postings I notice doing this. Thanks for all your work for this SSP by the way!

[Mike K.]

And thank you guys for bringing this issue to light. I'm actually very impressed that you've all participated in a venting session. I've never seen something like this before, so good on all of you!

With respect to a mod, I'm all ears if there are any suggestions for candidates.

[HAMRetrofit]

I nominate Flar since he had the insight to start this thread and his pictures rock.

[coalminecanary]

YOU ALL SMELL BAD AND OTHER PERSONAL ATTACKS

just kidding

Anyway, I think a mod is a good idea, but not if it turns out to be heavy handed. I mean, curtailing spam posts and clear derogatory personal attacks is important. But in general, if people are willing to post their words on a public board, they need to understand that what they say will be there to be seen forever.

For instance, people will occasionally post something that seems to be so out of the park ridiculous that I can't believe they seriously meant it. But there's a plus side to these kind of "way out there" posts, no matter what political/social angle they come from -- that is, it forces us all to come up with well thought out sane arguments backed up with facts in order to expose the lunacy of such posts. And then it's up to the original poster to do the same in order to convince us that it's not actually lunacy!

People who consistently post way-out things without facts backing them up tend to get ignored more and more until it's not worth it for them to rile things up.

I think a much more sane approach (instead of heavy handed modding) is for everyone to not take someone else's opinions too seriously -- that's how these flame wars get started.

I admit that I will often quote people and use their statements as a spring board to present my side of the argument. But I try pretty hard to avoid direct personal attacks. However, if you post your opinion on a message board, you are opening yourself up for your opinion to be shot right down by someone else's opinion. To me, that's all part of the point of these places otherwise it would be pretty boring.

The problem comes when posts turn from "this is why I think your point is completely wrong" to "you are an idiot if that's what you think".

So I guess my take is that a mod might be useful for stepping in when things get really personal, but there is a danger in censoring people's opinions, or censoring their responses to others opinions without hitting personal attack territory.

Let's just not make it too heavy handed :-)

[coalminecanary]

I nominate BCTed and RTH, but they both have to agree on each decision unanimously :-)

[Jon Dalton]

I agree to this whole moderation thing. Heated argument is par for the course but there are so many posts that aren't argument at all but just insults and trying to outdo one another in heaping levels of sarcasm on what the other guy just said. Those should just be erased.

I believe people resort to insults when their argument has run out but they're still full of steam. It's human nature to always want the last word, even if there's nothing more of substance to say.

I have to admit though, I read through all the stupidity on this board so I'm just as guilty as the next guy.

[beanmedic]

I don't know any of you people personally, but I have no objections to flar and steeltown, as they've been the only ones (seriously) mentioned so far. For what it's worth.

:banana:

[matt602]

I like this idea and the nominations seem fair to me.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I second both nominations--they both have consistently displayed decorum, care and open-mindedness.

I also back up the suggestion that the moderation tactics be effective but 'moderate'. There needs to be a reduction in personal attacks and rhetoric--but overall I'm a believer that some level debate--even heated debate--is healthy. I can appreciate the need to stay within the context of individual threads--however I don't want to see what amounts to message-tracking--that's a political tactic plain-and-simple--sometimes it's okay to color a little outside the lines as long as you're still drawing on the same page.

[JT Jacobs]

I nominate Flar since he had the insight to start this thread and his pictures rock.

Seconded.

[raisethehammer]

I nominate BCTed and RTH, but they both have to agree on each decision unanimously :-)

I'll see if I can get him boozed up and agree to ban himself! Lol.

Seriously though, I don't mind Steeltown or Flar, or another suggestion would be to pick one of the members who has been on here since the start (I think Steeltown is one of them as well).

[DC83]

Seriously though, I don't mind Steeltown or Flar, or another suggestion would be to pick one of the members who has been on here since the start (I think Steeltown is one of them as well).

I believe our 'senior' forumers on here are Steeltown & Realcity... if I remember correctly, they were the 1st two repp'n Hamilton.
When I joined, I believe it was just RTH, Steeltown & Realcity... back in the day when it was just one-very-long-page on info! haha Thank God for the organization of a SSP:Local section!

[raisethehammer]

I think some others had joined before me.
Let's let Realcity mod the humour content. I'm still howling over the "expensive to be an idiot" comment (sorry fastcars, that's darn funny).

[Millstone]

How about less mods and more reasonable people.

[raisethehammer]

Less mods?? Right now we have zero.

[Millstone]

Less mods?? Right now we have zero.

Um, no, every once in a while an administrator pops in and tells everyone to get in line.

[coalminecanary]

I'll see if I can get him boozed up and agree to ban himself! Lol.

You'd probably have to agree to ban yourself as part of the deal

Then you'd both re-register as BCHammer and RTTed and screw us all up!

[Millstone]

You'd probably have to agree to ban yourself as part of the deal

Then you'd both re-register as BCHammer and RTTed and screw us all up!

BCHammer, MCHammer's unpopular twin.

[Mike K.]

We can have two mods, if two individuals that the majority here feels are good candidates.

With respect to modding, it's no so much keeping a cap on vibrant discussion, it's more of a local individual(s) that can be reached to answer questions or concerns, move threads that were posted in the wrong section, dissect threads into two if a topic starts to spiral from the original theme of a thread, judge a members actions based on what they know about the individual and not what they've read by the individual, etc. Local eyes and ears can have a very positive impact on the growth and stability of a localized forum like this.

[SteelTown]

Erm....me senior?! lol

I don't mind being a mod, unless flar wants the job. My modding style is that I'll only interfere and get involved when 1) versus type of debate (against the rules) and 2) insults. Usually I just delete the post. The only tendency that I have is that I’m a bit of a neat freak. I like to keep things organized and tidy.

[raisethehammer]

BCHammer, MCHammer's unpopular twin.

Lol....one of these days I'll drop the bomb on you all that we are actually the SAME PERSON! haha

[flar]

I'm honoured that you guys would nominate me. I would accept the responsibility, but if only one moderator is chosen, I would defer to SteelTown. He's been here from the beginning and is the main contributor of Hamilton info.

[chris k]

Steeltown and Flar are both perfect for this position because i cant recall seeing either take a "side" in a pointless, childish arguement and they are both respected members among the forumites (?)

The problem like i initially stated would be choosing one and once again as i intitially stated i think we could set up a thread with a pole. Unless of course administration (Mike) feels it easier to have two mods.

Opinions?

Cheers

[raisethehammer]

let's have a huge thread with insults, name-calling and divisive arguing to decide which of them should be mod.

[matt602]

Flar and Steeltown as mods sounds great to me.

[BCTed]

YOU ALL SMELL BAD AND OTHER PERSONAL ATTACKS

just kidding

Anyway, I think a mod is a good idea, but not if it turns out to be heavy handed.

I am not in favour of the mod idea, partially because of the fear of heavy-handedness --- not necessarily against me, but in general. Our ancestors fought hard to ensure that we could possess the freedoms we enjoy today and some of us just want to give many of these freedoms away and voluntarily turn this place into a police state.

Seriously, I have seen way too many examples of overzealous mods on the Internet who delete loads of posts, lock tons of threads, and generally make their presence way too well known. I do not want to see anything like that happen in here.

All of this said, I very much like both flar and SteelTown, and if we really must have mods, then they are good choices --- but let's not have mods.

[BCTed]

Lol....one of these days I'll drop the bomb on you all that we are actually the SAME PERSON! haha

We're not the same person. Or are we?

[Mike K.]

BCTed, mods on SSP are not here to enact personal agendas on users as so much as they're a guiding hand to help keep the forums organized and free of clutter (such as spam or offensive content, moving threads to appropriate sections, etc). They also provide a local presence that can step in and handle issues that a user may have or advise administrators of going-ons and potential changes to the forum that the forumers may be interested in.

So from what I gather, Flar and Steeltown are nominated? I see no problem in having both of you can share the role of overseeing this section.

If you guys would like to PM me and let me know if modding is something you wish to take on we can take it from there.

And again, thanks to everyone for being so willing to vent issues and for taking a proactive approach to the future of this forum.