[coalminecanary]

This business in Flamborough is funny. They are mad that the slot machine income will be spread through the entire city.

Who do they think is paying for the hwy6 expansion? The overpass going in at clappisons? Ploughing and maintaining the long stretches of road between their spread-apart rural houses? The entire city is!

They need to get a grip. Some of the tax amounts these guys are quoting are less than mine, and I guarantee their property is bigger, and probably their house too -- and worth more. That's how property taxes work!

Sad to say, but the flamborough region has seen huge property value increases over the past decade and higher taxes are part of that deal. None of them are crying about their house value doubling but raise the taxes 10% and they want to run away from home...

I kinda want to see them de-amalgamate just to see what happens. I don't think they realize that they can't just deamalgamate themselves at the flick of a switch...

[flar]

I agree in principle that the slot money should go to the city as a whole, but the amount is not that great and the city could easily afford to phase the new arrangement in to buy some goodwill. Flamborough already hates being part of the city; tax issues are just about the number one thing to get people riled up. Pasuta has already stated he'll be voting down anything and everything benefiting the rest of the city (like LRT). He was quote in the Spec saying "I never forgive and I never forget". All of the acrimony could have been prevented at minimal cost.

[raisethehammer]

I do feel bad for folks in rural Flamborough. they should be able to separate from Waterdown...Waterdown is really the problem with it's unchecked sprawl, highways and costly infrastructure. As Coamine said, the entire city pays for all that crap.
Rural Flamborough is getting screwed IMO. that ward needs to be split in half. suburban and rural.

[realcity]

tell Flamboro that Dofasco and Stelco's taxes stay in the lower city and the airport taxes stay on the mountain.

They are so misinformed they all think they subsidize Hamilton. All of Flamboro generates less then half the revenue then West Mountain alone. They don't realize that their taxes have increased mostly from the Assessments Office at Queens Park. They've not been paying their share for a long time, maybe never. Paying for long stretches of road between houses and huge lots gets expensive.... pony up.

It was narrowly passed last night 8 - 7 in favour. A deal is a deal.....

[raisethehammer]

less than half of the west mountain?? where the heck does the west mountain generate taxes?
I'd love to see the comparison to the north end neighbourhoods with stelco/dofasco etc.... or downtown wards with all the office towers.

[realcity]

I know, that's what I thought. From Whitehead.. It must be houses, one cluster of high rises, and basically two commercial strips along Mohawk.

Mostly houses.... the Scenic drive homes are totally getting ripped, but if they want to pay $700 a month (in just taxes) to live on Scenic, I hope the view is worth it?... it's your money. Even being 'close' to scenic -- which the city defines as all the way to Sanatorium, they're paying a hefty premium. I looked at one super-60s-Boogey-Nights house on West 20ish about two blocks away from Scenic and the taxes were $4800 for a normal sized lot and $300,000 house. I couldn't justify the tax payment being 75% of my mortgage payment.

[SteelTown]

^ Combine all that with the hikes for the water bills as the city is replacing the water lines because of the countless floods in the area (Sanatorium).

[raisethehammer]

who the heck does crybaby MacCarthy think is paying for her nifty Hwy 6 interchange and endless sprawl servicing?? if ALL of flamborough only generates that measley amount of taxes, they are completing getting a free ride on the backs of urban dwellers, downtowners, scenic drivers etc.....

[beanmedic]

The council meeting is being replayed on cable 14 at noon if you missed it.

[Millstone]

I like McCarthy's attitude. Anybody catch that St. Marys meeting walkout?

[raisethehammer]

I heard about it....
that's exactly my point. she's a friggin crybaby.
they got a free ride for 26 years under the old 'regional government'. now we're slowly trying to play catch-up and she's acting like they're so hard done by.
why don't we give the rest of the city a massive break for 26 years and see how she likes it.

[the dude]

can we just deamalgamate, please? it's the best for all considered.

[HAMRetrofit]

I think creating a tax free zone downtown is the best way to stimulate reinvestment. Create a high density enterprise zone. Raise taxes in the suburbs.

[Millstone]

can we just deamalgamate, please? it's the best for all considered.

From what I've read, Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough wanted to become a city and Stoney Creek-Glanbrook another one, as one of the proposals for amalgamation 8 years ago?

In any event, just sever Hamilton proper back off. =)

[LikeHamilton]

Flamborough likes to shoot themselves in the foot and blame everyone else. I was doing some research on this year’s budget and came across the numbers for area rated items for 2008. I am using population for the calculations, as I cannot find the number of household info on the cities web site. The ratios should be close.
Flamborough's culture and recreation amount actually went down by $299,842. Their increase for improved fire service was $834,647. Their increase for HSR was $263,672. That gives them as increase on the area rated part of taxes of $798,477 or approx. $20 per person based on 40,000 population in Flamborough. If there were no area rating, then 505,000 people would be paying the bill. It would work out to just $1.58 per person for Flamborough’s tax increase.
Area rating only works in area’s that are stable and have no growth in services. But the blame everyone else for their mess!

[JT Jacobs]

Perhaps the City could have been a little more gentle with the revenue transition by phasing it in gradually. However, I have a hard time with the general contention that Flamborough got screwed. They pay the lowest taxes in the city, and are just now coming into line with the rest of the GHA.

Naturally services in the rural areas cannot be compared to urban services. Finally, the issue is that the GHA is one unit. As such, all revenue should be shared.

Queen's Park will never allow de-amalgamation, but if it did, I woudn't mind ditching the suburbs. Once Hamilton prospers again, the suburbs will change their collective tune. Oh, and if they are severing, that should mean an immediate cessation of all services (like public transit, however limited it may be). There are benefits to being attached to a large city.

Finally, the idea of a tax-free zone downtown to stimulate urban investment is a pretty terrific idea to me.

[realcity]

No Flamboro wanted to be part of Burlington and Waterloo Region. They just like how it sounded better then being 'From Hamilton'.

Here's what Flamboro does..

allows 3+ acre lots for houses,
only accessible by 2 and 4 lane highways, then complains about road traffic and access
spreads out the houses so that servicing via Fire/Ambulance is difficult and costly,
Roads are expensive each rate payers alone has to pay for that massive stretch of asphalt in front of their 300 foot frontage, or the rest of the city has to subsidize their sprawl, then complains about the condidtions of the roads,
doesn't build sidewalks, then complains they don't even have them,
has too a low density of residents that HSR is not possible/viable, then complains they don't have HSR (they wouldn't use it anyway)
the homeowners cover 2 of their 3 acres with useless lush green lawns then complains about the water bill and water restrictions in drought imposed by the City

they're completely ignorant of the facts, I'm not sure why the City is so afraid of educating them?

[realcity]

They chose to live in the middle of nowhere that's what they get.
I guess it's expensive to be an idiot

[Hammer Native]

No Flamboro wanted to be part of Burlington and Waterloo Region. They just like how it sounded better then being 'From Hamilton'.

Here's what Flamboro does..

allows 3+ acre lots for houses,
only accessible by 2 and 4 lane highways, then complains about road traffic and access
spreads out the houses so that servicing via Fire/Ambulance is difficult and costly,
Roads are expensive each rate payers alone has to pay for that massive stretch of asphalt in front of their 300 foot frontage, or the rest of the city has to subsidize their sprawl, then complains about the condidtions of the roads,
doesn't build sidewalks, then complains they don't even have them,
has too a low density of residents that HSR is not possible/viable, then complains they don't have HSR (they wouldn't use it anyway)
the homeowners cover 2 of their 3 acres with useless lush green lawns then complains about the water bill and water restrictions in drought imposed by the City

they're completely ignorant of the facts, I'm not sure why the City is so afraid of educating them?

Actually you're both right. The above idea was one proposal, and also Flamborough, Ancaster, and Dundas proposed becoming one city (or town). It was Spec cartoonist Graeme MacKay that came up with City of Flambasterdas. Like you said, anything but Hamilton.

[fastcarsfreedom]

This entire thread has disgusted and disappointed me. Bitterness and provincial thinking as thick here as it is among the vocal few in Flamborough and other locales that are "anti-Hamilton." The generalizations about "idiots" are rich--it's certainly justifiable to brand thousands of people based upon someone's complaints about watering restrictions. If there are prostitues at Main & Emerald does that mean everyone in the Lower City is prostitute?

There are so many complete and utter inaccuricies in this thread it's almost laughable.

Lastly, though I have no specific knowledge of the funding sources for the project--I can assure you that the Highway 5/6 reconstruction is an MTO project, and not a City one. And though I am "less concerned" about sprawl than others here--the vast majority of Waterdown's "sprawl" has occured post-amalgamation--in fact interim control by-laws limiting the scope of the "power center" development at 5/6 disappeared with the Town of Flamborough--prior to that there were measures in place designed to protect the village businesses in Waterdown.

I'm even disappointed in myself for participating in this thread.

[raisethehammer]

spare us the agony please.

get your facts straight before mouthing off to the rest of us.

-The city is paying millions for the Hwy5/6 interchange.
- Councillor McCarthy has LED the charge for the power centre development despite protests from Waterdown BIA, Dundas Downtown and Westdale BIA.
- Whether or not you care about sprawl is irrelavent. the fact is, it costs a ton of money to service and develop. Flambasterdas only generates around $40 million in taxes every year (a paltry amount compared to any ward in the old city). Who is paying for all their sprawl servicing and maintainance? Who is paying for all the snow/garbage/road maintainance over the massive, spread out region of Flamborough? The OLD city of Hamilton always has, and still is.

They are crybabies and have become spoiled brats due to the free ride they received since 1974 in Regional Government.
The party's over and fairness is slowly creeping back into Hamilton's regional tax system. Not a moment too soon.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Wow, hit a nerve did I? Re-read my post--I stated I had no idea what the funding mix was for 5&6--merely that it is an MTO project, which it is.

Secondly, I find it ironic that I would be accused of "mouthing off"--something I've actually never participated in here. This thread, if you read it carefully is nothing but name calling, provincial thinking, finger-pointing and chest-thumping. Did I say I support Margaret McCarthy? Never have to tell you the truth--have no time for her whatsoever--and I'm reasonably sure I didn't misspeak on that point.

Lastly, if you actually believe this us vs. them attitude will somehow advance the city/region's fortunes going forward, you are, I'm afraid to say, dead wrong. As much as you'd like to believe that the "old" City of Hamilton (I stand corrected--only the portion north of Fennell) is an island unto itself with poor suburban communities clinging to it for dear life--you are sadly mistaken. The entire region--and I mean--GTA, through Hamilton, through Niagara works, prospers and develops as a single organic unit. Until such a time that you choose to embrace the idea that people need to work "together", you are as completely guilty for the negativity and bickering that has hogtied the city, and region for decades.

Now, I accept that you're a passionate person--fair enough. Perhaps wait until you're seeing a little less red before you respond to my posts here. You already know where I grew up, you already know what history and attachement my family has in relation to Hamilton--so please don't expect me to come on here and expect to give people a free-ride while they shit on everyone in an entire (former) town--becuase they have an agenda or an axe to grind, or because they dislike a particular politician. You have no problem at all 'defending' your community from criticism, and frankly, you shouldn't expect less from anyone else.

Remind me again why the old City of Hamilton was so hot on amalgamation? I was entirely opposed to splitting Flamborough amongst Brant, Waterloo and Halton--I thought it was an utterly sickening idea. Do you understand the roots of the argument though--can you find me another municpal issues thread where the people in Flamborough are called 'idiots'?

[raisethehammer]

no, you didn't hit a nerve. I just refuse to sit back while the folks in flamborough complain as if they are being hard done by.
They still have it better than most people in the entire city.

You said in your post that there were many complete inaccuracies in this discussion. I haven't read any.
You also suggested that the city of Hamilton forced the big box crap on waterdown. that's wrong. their councillor fought for it, despite objections from several inner city councillors who wondered how much more of our land can be wasted like this.

I agree completely with your description of this entire region growing and working together. In fact, that's what city council is trying to do. The province forced amalgamation on everyone. A band of political elites like Terry Cooke et al were the ones who wanted it. I can only assume that they really thought it would bring savings. Sadly, they were wrong.
That's a separate issue though.
Even if we'd stayed with the regional government system I'd want these changes in the tax system to be happening. We subsidized the growth of the suburbs while downtown hamilton rotted before our eyes.
As Bob Wade admitted during his mayoral election campaign, the old city of Hamilton funded "probably 70-75% of the costs of new development in Ancaster". No shite.

[realcity]

How can they expect to have city amenities when they don't live in the City?

Is HSR supposed to run busses out there, and stop once every kilometer within the range of three houses?

Just wait another two months when there is a summer drought, and see how vocal they are about Hamilton imposing water restrictions on their vast lawnscapes. There was already a letter to the Ed today mentioning it.

And sidewalks.... they don't want them. Why? there's nowhere to walk to. It's totally car dependent. This is why I look forward to $2.50/L gas.

The lots are huge. If we broke down how much tax is paid per sq ft, they'd see that Hamilton home owners are paying a lot more... even with area rating.

Besides Flamboro itself is a contrived 'town'. I could take their own argument and say Rockton gets to keep all the Casino taxes, nevermind Waterdown, Carlisle, Freelton etc.

Spare me the 'us vs them' BS. As soon as something like taxes and services, or anything negative about Hamilton comes up, they're the ones that collectivly and conveniently group together under the Flamboro label.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm not getting into a tit-for-tat game. I didn't suggest the City of Hamilton "FORCED" the big box development in Flamborough--I pointed out the fact that the interim control by-law which prevented pre-amalgamation disappeared when the town disappeared. That is no more a suggestion that the new city "forced" it than your suggestion that the city (only inner city taxpayers?) were paying for the 5/6 reconstruction. Again, despite years/months of absolutely tearing the City administration to pieces--you are quick to rush to their defence when it is convenient--frankly I find this a confusing disconnect.

Take a serious look at a few of the posts in this thread and how often you read the word "THEY" then get back to me on exactly how it is that you see the region working together--they do this, they do that, they are crybabies, etc. I never agreed with amalgamation whatsoever--it's cost savings were grossly overstated and the resulting amalgam is simply too diverse to operate effectively. This was recognized in the Montreal area where a plebiscite decided which island communities would revert to their own identities and which would remain part of the MUC. Regional government was flawed--definitely, but no more flawed than the current model. Regional government allowed for the sharing of some key services while retaining others locally in distinct, identifiable communities. The former City of Hamilton's lack of growth potential was absolutely a key point in the process--failing to recognize that fails to address the root problems with the current scenario.

Accepting the fact that amalgamation happened and the band of dunces at Queens Park will never reverse it--where do we go from here. To be frank, as much as you all display a lot of progressive ideas here--you actually hate 3/4 of the land mass and about half of your own city's population. When downtown was dying there were still dairy cattle grazing behind Lime Ridge Mall (itself within the proper City of Hamilton)--so how does the blame get affixed to the suburbs when the bulk of downtown's deterioration came during a time when the most growth was within the city itself? By the time Regional government was abolished explosive growth in the suburbs was just coming to pass, and downtown had already been hollowed out--abandoned as much by Hamitonians themselves as Ancasterites or Dundasians.

This whole sidewalk issue is an interesting one. There are several developments reaching back to the 1950s and 1960s which were constructed without sidewalks. Some people like them, others don't. I live in a 70s subdivision that has them on a single side of the streets, other areas have double, some areas have none.

As for realcity--we get that you HATE the suburbs, everything they stand for and all the people in them...loud and clear...which is why your avatar is made of predominantly suburban retailers. Indeed, there are people of narrow-minds who think provincially and as a result will never visit downtown, and despite what may seem like differences of opinion--you my friend, are exactly like them.

[raisethehammer]

in case you hadn't noticed this thread is about Flamborough. that's why the constant use of the word "they", "them".
I live in downtown Hamilton.

Would you be happy if I said "I'm such a crybaby! I'm so ticked that my taxes are going up by 10%. I'm tired of all my water restrictions"etc... ??

Get real.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Wherein lies the problem. As opposed to "they" it ought to be "we"...

All I'm doing is challenging the arguments that I read here--and for some reason what I'm getting back is anger.

Quote
Get real.

That's just outright dismissive.

[waterloowarrior]

Lastly, though I have no specific knowledge of the funding sources for the project--I can assure you that the Highway 5/6 reconstruction is an MTO project, and not a City one. And though I am "less concerned" about sprawl than others here--the vast majority of Waterdown's "sprawl" has occured post-amalgamation--in fact interim control by-laws limiting the scope of the "power center" development at 5/6 disappeared with the Town of Flamborough--prior to that there were measures in place designed to protect the village businesses in Waterdown.


interim control bylaws can only be applied for a maximum of two years, they are just temporary. their purpose is to stop development so a planning/land use study can be done.

[raisethehammer]

Wherein lies the problem. As opposed to "they" it ought to be "we"...

All I'm doing is challenging the arguments that I read here--and for some reason what I'm getting back is anger.

Quote
Get real.

That's just outright dismissive.


it's supposed to be dismissive. Not of you, but of your less than valid point.
So, whenever I refer to someone in another town or city in the Golden Horseshoe I'm supposed to refer to them as "we"???
Feel free to not answer that so we can end this portion of the discussion.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I don't know whether you are ignoring my point on purpose, merely avoiding it or are oblivious to it. The entire 'theme' of this Thread is Us Vs. Them--denial of that seriously harms your credibility. If this is by design--I applaud you--I don't believe in going on the defensive myself--but suggesting that I mean you refer to people in other municipalities as "us" is ridiculous--you're smart, I'm sure you know full well that that's not what I'm suggesting. Seriously, read this thread, it is incredibly ugly in nature. I'm sure you have your reasons for ignoring the unbelievable generalizations in it--you yourself acknowledge that you use this Forum as a pulpit for your agenda--and these generalizations support that. Nonetheless, your failure to respond to the points I've made prior to this post leaves the impression to me that the statements you and others have made are indefensible--I'm not saying that's the case at all--I'm pointing out the fact that you've ignorned my points and chosen instead to attack the way in which I've expressed them.

Just as all people in Flamborough are not represented by this unknown person with the 3 acre lawn that's worried about watering restrictions, not everyone in Hamilton is represented by Michael Baldassaro. Painting everyone outside the former City limits as biased against the city seems to be the grist on which this mill runs. If you read back through this thread it is clear that the initial poster intended this to be incendiary in nature. Did you make note of the fact that a number of posters suggested potential solutions? Did those suggestions enrich the conversation--or were they outright ignored in favor of more rhetoric about "crybabies" and "free rides" under H-W government?

I respect your participation in this Forum, but do not expect for a minute that something so egregiously biased is going to go unchecked--I would expect no less from you if I, or anyone else came here and made statements of a similar nature about "those people" in the city.

[coalminecanary]

The problem is that the councillors who represent the furthest reaches of the city always seem to be the strongest supporters of the most backward thinking, and seem to favour decisions which hurt hamilton as a whole rather than help it.

I think most of us here agree that, since we are already amalgamated, we have to work together or else the city will fall further behind. We all have different feelings about whether amalgamation was a good idea or bad, but that being said, I think we all realize that we have to work with what we've got -- a mini-megacity.

In my opinion, the councillors who have the best ideas and who seem to be driven by passion for Hamilton as a whole rather than personal local agendas are McHattie and Bratina. I'm sure they do fight for their own ward issues as well, but I definitely get a sense from both of them that they are highly motivated by improvements to hamilton as a whole.

On the other extreme, we have Ferguson who, in my opinion, just does not understand reality sometimes, and seems to make decisions based purely on his own opinions regardless of the effect on hamilton as a whole.

In between, we have a lot of councillors who seem to be able to relate to their own wards but just cannot muster any vision for the city as a whole.

And to be fair, the initiation of this Flamborough argument was their own councillor urging them to request de-amalgamation and to withhold property taxes as punishment to the city because council was trying to force them to financially become, you know, part of the city.

So in this case especially, "they" are the ones fostering the us vs them mentality, and "they" are the reason we are discussing this mentality. I've seen many more disgusting threads than this one on here ;-)

[HAMRetrofit]

In the scheme of things does Flamborouh really matter? What are its contributions to Hamilton or Canada? My suspicion is that the town is rather minute and contributes very little to national GDP. It is only natural that it should be asked to contribute more to our society. The increased taxes and gambling loot will help boost their national and local identity.

How about the wards with Bay Street or Stelco Pier get a free ride for a while not sharing revenue? Lets see what that does for the greater good of our cities and in effect our country.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Does Hamilton matter HAMRetrofit--because I think Flamborough is PART of Hamilton.

I make no argument about the basis of the discussion (though I stand by my suggestion that the discussion was intiated to elicit the very response it did)--nonetheless, the posts prior to the most recent ones were the typical refrain of "those people are idiots" and the usual talk of how eventually the towns will spiral into decay and Hamilton proper will be reborn and all will be right in the world again, and the 'free ride' will end, etc etc. There were suggestions made--progressive ones--in an attempt to ease the transition of gambling revenues--perhaps making it more palatable to Flamborough. Imagine that--compromise.

[HAMRetrofit]

Fastcars my point was that Flamborough matters and Hamilton matters but... These cities/towns become more relevant based on their contribution to the whole country. Flamborough no longer exists as a political entity. We can't make exceptions for it based on the implications that it would have on other wards. Profit needs to go directly to the municipality for distribution. If this is not the case then where is the money technically going? It is technically going straight from the slots into the pockets of Flamborough resident's pockets. We can't have this because of the larger implications elsewhere.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote
My suspicion is that the town is rather minute and contributes very little to national GDP. It is only natural that it should be asked to contribute more to our society

You have a unique way of making your point. Nevertheless, my arguments are based less on the specific issue of OLG revenues and more on the key in which the song has been sung in this thread. Are specific councillors playing this for political purposes?--absolutely...no argument from me. What disturbs me are 'progressive' thinkers who are quick to brand an area of the city with a population of 35,000 as "idiots, whiners, crybabies" etc.

[HAMRetrofit]

Well when a chancellor cries over something as petty as this I think it is fair to say critics are blatantly stating the obvious regarding that individual. If people from the community validate that behavior that puts those particular people in the same position. I doubt that most would support this particular thing because I sure would not from my elected officials.

In the municipality, Flamborough residents are going to need to eventually pay the same tax rate per square foot per service as people living on Barton Street or where ever else. There is never going to be any deamalgamation so just face reality and stop wasting time. Things like this have a natural way of balancing themselves out.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I have no use or time for McCarthy. Assumptions were made by some based on my posts that I somehow support that particular councillor--which is far from the case. In my formitive years--before amalgamation--Flamborough politics was dominated by an insular and connected "few" in true small-town fashion. Sadly, there has been some spillover into the present day--and it will take some years for people like Margaret McCarthy and McMeekin to disappear. Playing the OLG card all these years after amalgamation is pure politics--though I certainly appreciate the input of posters who suggested compromises to the situation. Fair to say if the money was suddenly flowing away from Hamilton to some other municipality that there would be a vocal few raising their voices--it's inevitable. Nonetheless, I would bet (sorry for the pun) that many of these self-righteous types were the same ones dead set against gaming when it was first introduced in Ontario--they'd have been aghast at the thought of a "gambling parlor" in the midst of UEL territory. Doesn't take long when the dollars roll in for minds to magically change.

As for taxation--I think it's fair to say we probably disagree to some extent on the issue of area rating--in fact I know we do, but this isn't the time or place for that argument.

Correct you are, however, most of these issues will even out in time. There is some truly breathtaking beauty in Flamborough--issues aside you are blessed to have it included--intact--as part of the new city.

[HAMRetrofit]

I do believe in area rating. However I am quite precise in the way I view it. I see that if individuals live within the urban boundary and are receiving any urban services they should be paying for everything including transit. I see if individuals are not living within the urban boundary and living without any urban services they should be exempt. The property owner within the rural area would need to be entirely that, rural, with no municipal services particularly water or sewers. Its either all or nothing with me no in betweens for suburban residents.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I think we could come close to common ground on that HAMRetrofit. I don't claim to know the intricacies of municipal taxation--but I assume under the H-W government that Dundas and Stoney Creek paid for HSR considering each was/is served extensively--including local routes.

From a personal perspective, I know where I grew up--my folks' "homestead" has no urban services--and thanks to Greenbelt, will not for the forseeable future. Facing the realities of the stark difference between the 11th Concession in Flamborough and Corktown is one of the intricacies of managing a "city" of such diverse land uses.

[realcity]

something i hate more then Flamboro is when people say "sorry for the pun". It's the most annoying thing in a conversation. Fastcars are you Bill Kelly? o no you're not... or else you'd be saying "invariably" ALL THE TIME... and using it incorrectly too.

[fastcarsfreedom]

At least things aren't turning personal here. I find linguistic elitists to be annoying--but since this is a public forum I tolerate them.

Since my entire argument was reduced to a comment about a turn-of-phrase, it clearly illustrates exactly how disinterested you are in actually discussing the issue at hand.

[realcity]

you got the hint??

it was already dead after all of my position statements re: Flamboro were ignored several posts ago.

[fastcarsfreedom]

So the thread 'dies' because you feel your 'position statements' were ignored? Interesting...

Quote
They chose to live in the middle of nowhere that's what they get.
I guess it's expensive to be an idiot

When this is the quality of your 'position statements' I think you can be fairly sure that most people will ignore them. I actually addressed this particular comment several times--otherwise all I read was something about lot sizes being too large (in a rural area)--Greenbelt will certainly help that, won't it? Your comments are hopelessly skewed by your biases and the opinions you've stated are beyond short-sighted. Having had the pleasure of reading some of your posts over in the "decorum" Thread I can see where you stand on the issue of civility.

[markbarbera]

sorry, I posted a comment in the wrong thread - moved it to its proper home.

[beanmedic]

edit: removed stupid joke

[ihateittoo]

gasp! are realcity and RTH the same person?!?

[raisethehammer]

Lol...no we aren't, but I admit to absolutely loving the line:

I guess it's expensive to be an idiot.

haha.

[BCTed]

gasp! are realcity and RTH the same person?!?

My suspicions have been confirmed.

[BCTed]

My suspicions have been confirmed.

So have mine.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote

Lol...no we aren't, but I admit to absolutely loving the line:
I guess it's expensive to be an idiot.

Seriously RTH? I don't see the slightest humor in it. Frankly I would expect you to want better for this Forum--intended to be humourous or not (in fact, in context I believe it was meant to be deadly serious) it represents absolutely everything that is wrong with this Forum.

[the dude]

So have mine.

quoting yourself in typically bizarre fashion. sweet. you're the man...i mean men.

[raisethehammer]

Quote

Lol...no we aren't, but I admit to absolutely loving the line:
I guess it's expensive to be an idiot.

Seriously RTH? I don't see the slightest humor in it. Frankly I would expect you to want better for this Forum--intended to be humourous or not (in fact, in context I believe it was meant to be deadly serious) it represents absolutely everything that is wrong with this Forum.


Lol...I sure hope you're having a good laugh while writing stuff like that.
If not, I feel for you. Loosen up once in a while.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I have a sense of humor--rest assured and spare your pity of me--I was a Tigers fan in the Bobby Higginson era... In seriousness I merely call things as I see them--and I doubt you would find the humour in the statement if it was directed at your neighborhood or the people in it.

[the dude]

^ya, smith was useless but i'd have taken higginson on my team anyday.

[raisethehammer]

I have a sense of humor--rest assured and spare your pity of me--I was a Tigers fan in the Bobby Higginson era... In seriousness I merely call things as I see them--and I doubt you would find the humour in the statement if it was directed at your neighborhood or the people in it.

ya, you're probably right. Living downtown, I don't ever get called names or get dirty looks. :yes:

And hey, Higginson wasn't that bad. But man, you're right. The Tigers stunk so long it's amazing.
I gotta come down and check that new ballpark. I'll be staying in Detroit for one night in June before flying to Mexico (they had cheapest flights anywhere in Southern Ontario by a MILE). Maybe I'll try to check out some places the evening before my flight.

[coalminecanary]

i miss tiger stadium and our traditional stop at white castle, getting served through a barrred window like an olde-west-style bank

[realcity]

another Letter to the Ed from a Flamboro resident complaining they don't have
- sidewalks
- busses
- streetlights
- fire fighters etc
appeared today in the SPec

I ask, If you wanted city amenities why did you chose to live in the 'country'. Low density sprawl can't afford to pay for these things.

[raisethehammer]

there's a fab letter in the Spec today telling Flambasterdas to basically take a hike or start looking after their own sick, homeless, criminals, parolees etc....

[Jon Dalton]

My co-worker from Flamborough has been involved in this. She claims that Flamborough was able to pay for its infrastructure on its own, with lower taxes, prior to amalgamation. It would be interesting to see how actual figures from the city budget compare to the insinuations of either side of this debate.

[raisethehammer]

there's no way. If Flambasterdas really generates only $40 million ANNUALLY, there's no way in heck they could afford to pay for their own infrastructure. Waterdown's roads alone would suck that up, not to mention massive snow clearing, potholes, hydro, sewer, underground, libraries, rec centres, town hall, police, fire, ambulance etc.....

[realcity]

100 Main St E
http://oldproperty.hamilton.ca/property-inquiry_noborders/detail.asp?qryrollno=02014501000

property assessment

[raisethehammer]

100 Main St E
http://oldproperty.hamilton.ca/property-inquiry_noborders/detail.asp?qryrollno=02014501000

property assessment

what the heck is this???

[fastcarsfreedom]

So there was another Letter to the Editor from someone concerning a lack of sidewalks in Flamborough--obviously this means everyone who lives and has ever lived in Flamborough thinks this way, right? By this measure I should assume each Letter from a member of the public in the "old" City is representative of the entire populous--yourselves included, correct? Secondly, this second "go to heck" Letter was actually published by The Spec--the strictly biased, narrow-focused newspaper that caters to suburban homebuilders?

This is a discussion forum--and what's occuring here is garden variety bashing and rhetoric...based in part by an unverifiable tax assessment for a town that doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for several years. Did Flamborough self-finance prior to amalgamation? Of course not--hence Regional government. Flamborough financed it's own Town budget--took care of the roads and streets that were it's responsibility while the Region took care of it's infrastructure and the MTO took care of what little remains of its.

This thread doesn't seek solutions--but gives people a chance to vent their biases.

[SteelTown]

what the heck is this???

Owner got a re-assessment and as a result property tax has been cut almost in half compared to 2006.

[raisethehammer]

So there was another Letter to the Editor from someone concerning a lack of sidewalks in Flamborough--obviously this means everyone who lives and has ever lived in Flamborough thinks this way, right? By this measure I should assume each Letter from a member of the public in the "old" City is representative of the entire populous--yourselves included, correct? Secondly, this second "go to heck" Letter was actually published by The Spec--the strictly biased, narrow-focused newspaper that caters to suburban homebuilders?

This is a discussion forum--and what's occuring here is garden variety bashing and rhetoric...based in part by an unverifiable tax assessment for a town that doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for several years. Did Flamborough self-finance prior to amalgamation? Of course not--hence Regional government. Flamborough financed it's own Town budget--took care of the roads and streets that were it's responsibility while the Region took care of it's infrastructure and the MTO took care of what little remains of its.

This thread doesn't seek solutions--but gives people a chance to vent their biases.


I've offered great solutions in this thread for folks in Flambasterdas - 'go to heck'.

[coalminecanary]

What problem is this thread supposed to find a solution for? The problem of Flamborough residents complaining about taxes?

The solution to that is for everyone to suck it up and share the weight. We all pay taxes.

To complain about taxes going up means you'd better also complain about your property value going up too... that's the main point. You can't have it both ways.

[fastcarsfreedom]

If your collective goal is just to get me to 'give up'--you deserve at least a kudos for pushing me closer than you ever have before. One day a good discussion gets going about the reasons this entire Forum was founded, about positivity, about mature discussion--and the end result is a Forum that amounts to a bunch of people bitching about the suburbs.

[raisethehammer]

maccarthy should be fired or censured from city hall.
what a joke. calling in the police. inciting verbal abuse. if she wants to trade tax forms with me I'd be happy to.
Or perhaps she'd like the meth clinic, 2 shelters, new shelter under construction, multiple afforable transitional housing complexes, halfway house and homeless people in the park in my neighbourhood instead?
fire the clown.

[HAMRetrofit]

^ that summarizes why downtown Hamilton cannot attract investment. Over one hundred years of "war on poverty". No one there has figured out that if you keep giving they keep taking. There are other municipalities out there that can start picking up some of this slack.

[raisethehammer]

^ that summarizes why downtown Hamilton cannot attract investment. Over one hundred years of "war on poverty". No one there has figured out that if you keep giving they keep taking. There are other municipalities out there that can start picking up some of this slack.


ha! good luck getting any of those municipalities on board.
They want low taxes and a free ride, but no responsibility or societal 'ills'.
So we get them all, plus the highest taxes to take care of everyone in flamborough from folks with the flu to violent criminals.

[paleale2]

Owner got a re-assessment and as a result property tax has been cut almost in half compared to 2006.

Not quite.....

The 2008 number is for 6 months only. As the taxes are based on MVA, this is completely untrue steeltown

[raisethehammer]

Terry Whitehead absolutely hit the nail on the head in today's Spec.
Very nice.

[FairHamilton]

Terry Whitehead absolutely hit the nail on the head in today's Spec.
Very nice.

My prediction; Expect a flood of Letters to the Editor from Flamborough residents in the coming days.

[raisethehammer]

yup...and even though all of them will contain blatant lies and false information they'll still get published because big media doesn't care about truth or facts...they care about selling papers.

[realcity]

Indeed, good on Terry for laying out the facts. A house on the West Mountain valued $20K less then a house in Flam still pays more in taxes.....? and Flambasterds complain about paying too much, and ACTUALLY BELIEVE they pay more. Why? Because it's the psychology of Mass Empathy. They tell each other it's true so it must be. Plus The Spec is afraid to tell the truth to them too.... they might cancel their subscriptions.

[raisethehammer]

and their councillor is a bloody liar.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Mass empathy is an interesting suggestion--it may indeed be true--among those opposing tax increases in Flamborough--and those of you in the City trying to justify said increases.

[HAMRetrofit]

Oh well vinyl windows, two car garages, cal de sacs, and 100 foot asphalt driveways are the means to the good life.

They are worth the increase in taxes. Long live Flambaroh and bring on the taxes.

[leif]

Those of us in the city don't need to justify anything - the numbers have been laid out in the cold clear light of day, fastcarsfreedom. Flamborios have not been carrying their share of the load. Unfortunately, at this point, not even a forensic audit by an accounting firm of Flamborians choosing would satisfy the mass denial up there.

[realcity]

Welcome to the Board Leif.

Well said, if they can't let the facts speak then there is no discussion to be had.

[leif]

Thanks realcity :-) I couldn't resist after reading RTH's complimentary remark about my letter to the ed:

"there's a fab letter in the Spec today telling Flambasterdas to basically take a hike or start looking after their own sick, homeless, criminals, parolees etc...."

This whole bizarre mass delusion has left me feeling stymied. My point in the letter nailed home once again by a Kirkendal email bulletin just received:

"Two male youths were arrested early this morning 4:30 am. They are responsible for most of the car entries in that area. They were arrested on Dundurn at Homewood. It is possible they were in the company of a young female but we do not have any more information at this time. One youth lives steps away from the club. They were caught by an off duty officer (who also had his car entered). The youths only confessed to 10 car entries. They stated they need money to buy cool stuff."

Hhmmm... let's see, at least three halfway houses packed with paroled young offenders in the neighbourhood - but that's probably just a coincidence...

Anyway, point being, that stuff is our burden to bear for the same or higher property taxes as Flam - but yes, we do get the snow plowed first, etc. etc. blah, blah, blah. Anyone up there wanna trade? ;-)

[raisethehammer]

it's time to censur bigmouth mcCarthy or suspend her.
She's getting a lawyer involved now to fight the tax increase????? Hey bimbo, you guys pay the lowest taxes in the ENTIRE CITY!
This sort of behaviour shouldn't be allowed on council.
If it was Sam Merulla, people would be screaming bloody murder.
But because it's a smiling, suburban hick she thinks she can do whatever she wants and become a little pain in the backside.
Quit lying to your residents and quit being such a baby!
You guys have gotten a free ride for 3 decades and STILL are in 2008!!

[realcity]

Let them waste their money on a lawyer. Any lawyer will see this as a cash-cow. They haven't got a case..... NOT AT ALL. But the lawyer will be happy to have meetings and provide paperwork, citing cases/precedents for a fee. And he/she should. The City has nothing to worry about.

Why are these 'councilors' even on Council? they absolutely hate Hamilton and vote against anything that would improve Hamilton's image. These people are like our very own local Parti Quebecois... It's time to get tough with them Fred.

[raisethehammer]

the lawyer is working for free! He lives out there.

[hamiltonguy]

I know the lawyer too. Great guy.

He's said his involvement doesn't mean a lawsuit, only will if something illegal happened. (or at least that's what it says in the Spec.)

Don't judge him too harshly.

[coalminecanary]

Ahh, remember the days back on the grade school playground when the whiniest of all the sniveling kids threatened to "sue you" when they didn't get their way?

I'm glad real adult life isn't like that!

[highwater]

I know the lawyer too. Great guy.

He's said his involvement doesn't mean a lawsuit, only will if something illegal happened. (or at least that's what it says in the Spec.)

Don't judge him too harshly.

If something illegal happened? A truly great guy wouldn't even hint at such a thing.

[raisethehammer]

something illegal has happened alright.
Hamilton has been screwed by these cheapskates for 3 decades.

[hamiltonguy]

If something illegal happened? A truly great guy wouldn't even hint at such a thing.

I don't think the word "illegal" itself was used, i'd have to check the article.

But basically the gist was that as long as nothing legally questionable happened there won't be a lawsuit.

[raisethehammer]

I don't think the word "illegal" itself was used, i'd have to check the article.

But basically the gist was that as long as nothing legally questionable happened there won't be a lawsuit.

is McCarthy really that big of an airhead that she needed to contact a lawyer to figure that out??
When a lawyer says that, you know nothing happened. They sue for anything these days.
If anything, we should be suing Flambasterdas for keeping the slots revenue an extra 2 years instead of sharing it as originally planned.

[hamiltonguy]

is McCarthy really that big of an airhead that she needed to contact a lawyer to figure that out??
When a lawyer says that, you know nothing happened. They sue for anything these days.
If anything, we should be suing Flambasterdas for keeping the slots revenue an extra 2 years instead of sharing it as originally planned.

He wasn't contacted as a lawyer (although McCarthy seems to want to play this up), she just found him when she was trying to drum up citizen support. He happens to be a resident who is a lawyer, not the other way around.

Lawyers only sue when they think they can win. Judges and lawmakers, who are responsible for (mis)interpreting and writing the law, are more to blame.

If judges stopped making stupid rulings, and lawmakers stupid laws, then lawyers wouldn't have as many stupid things to sue over.

[brett.electrician]

Wow! I just read through this entire thread. Some people on here really have it in for suburbanities. Just a couple of questions. Why should people living in a rural place pay equal taxes to those living in the inner city? Shouldn't your taxes be based on the services you recieve? Why is there such a level of hatred expressed by certian member of the fourm towards the residents of flambourgh? What have they ever done to you? Isn't it true they were forced into amalgamation? If so of course they aren't going to be happy. Do the people of Flambourgh even feel a connection to Hamilton? I.E do they shop there, go to school or use the services?

[drpgq]

Wow! I just read through this entire thread. Some people on here really have it in for suburbanities. Just a couple of questions. Why should people living in a rural place pay equal taxes to those living in the inner city? Shouldn't your taxes be based on the services you recieve? Why is there such a level of hatred expressed by certian member of the fourm towards the residents of flambourgh? What have they ever done to you? Isn't it true they were forced into amalgamation? If so of course they aren't going to be happy. Do the people of Flambourgh even feel a connection to Hamilton? I.E do they shop there, go to school or use the services?

Yeah I feel your pain. I live downtown and wish I could create a little village consisting of just me and only paying for the services I use. I've never received welfare, so I don't see why I should contribute to the 20% the city does. I amost never take the bus anymore (although I once did in high school, undergrad and grad school), just like somebody out in Flamborough, so why should I contribute to that too? Hell I spend 35% of my time in Europe, so why should I pay for things like police services when I'm not even here? I like this picking and choosing of services based exactly on what I use. Sign me up!

[Millstone]

Yeah I feel your pain. I live downtown and wish I could create a little village consisting of just me and only paying for the services I use. I've never received welfare, so I don't see why I should contribute to the 20% the city does. I amost never take the bus anymore (although I once did in high school, undergrad and grad school), just like somebody out in Flamborough, so why should I contribute to that too? Hell I spend 35% of my time in Europe, so why should I pay for things like police services when I'm not even here? I like this picking and choosing of services based exactly on what I use. Sign me up!

What are you saying? Yay for status quo?

[drpgq]

What are you saying? Yay for status quo?

I was replying to the previous poster who, it seemed to me, was advocating only paying property taxes for the specific services you receive: "Why should people living in a rural place pay equal taxes to those living in the inner city? Shouldn't your taxes be based on the services you recieve?" I'm not a big fan of this mentality and I guess ideally, I would prefer if a lot of these services (transit and welfare) were funded exclusively by the province. How do you choose which services you should pay for? What if somebody from Flamborough at some point takes a bus in Hamilton?

I can understand someone moving out to Flamborough and feeling that they are leaving the city behind and should no longer have to pay for all its problems. I don't think that is right, and I'm especially not a fan of people trying to arrange boundaries so they pay less taxes. I don't particularly feel a "connection" to Stoney Creek, or Winona for that matter, but I don't go around complaining about my property taxes being used there.

[FairHamilton]

Wow! I just read through this entire thread. Some people on here really have it in for suburbanities. Just a couple of questions. Why should people living in a rural place pay equal taxes to those living in the inner city? Shouldn't your taxes be based on the services you recieve? Why is there such a level of hatred expressed by certian member of the fourm towards the residents of flambourgh? What have they ever done to you? Isn't it true they were forced into amalgamation? If so of course they aren't going to be happy. Do the people of Flambourgh even feel a connection to Hamilton? I.E do they shop there, go to school or use the services?

I think it's a generality to say those in the country receive less in services. I think they recieve the same in service amount/value, but those services are just different and not as clearly evident as some of those services 'consumed' in the city.

An example would be garbage pickup and snow removal. On my city street in only 300' (600' linear) the city can collect garbage and remove snow for 20 homes. If each home pays $3,000/year in property taxes that's $60,000 in tax revenue. I'm guessing in a rural setting that 600' linear feet of plowing or garbage pickup would perhaps cover 2, perhaps 3 properties. Are rural those properties paying their 'fair share' for that service, or are the city properties subsidizing them?

Same with city vs. rural school bus pickups, road maintenance, constructing water lines, sewage lines, police, and fire department coverage, etc......

Heck, a large portion of my property taxes are funnelled to education. My wife and I don't (and won't) have kids, so does that mean I should jump up and down shouting and screaming that I'm hard done by? And how about people who have large families shouldn't they pay more than those with smaller families?

I feel for those with increased tax bills, and I support their right to be angry and to voice their anger. That's democracy. I also know that sometimes life's not fair and whoever said it was fair, lied. But, they'll have their right to lobby their provincial MPP, and throw their support behind mayoral and councillor candidate that support their views in future elections. If there's a large enough voice, and a compelling reason to reverse decisions they should change.

[raisethehammer]

I was replying to the previous poster who, it seemed to me, was advocating only paying property taxes for the specific services you receive: "Why should people living in a rural place pay equal taxes to those living in the inner city? Shouldn't your taxes be based on the services you recieve?" I'm not a big fan of this mentality and I guess ideally, I would prefer if a lot of these services (transit and welfare) were funded exclusively by the province. How do you choose which services you should pay for? What if somebody from Flamborough at some point takes a bus in Hamilton?

I can understand someone moving out to Flamborough and feeling that they are leaving the city behind and should no longer have to pay for all its problems. I don't think that is right, and I'm especially not a fan of people trying to arrange boundaries so they pay less taxes. I don't particularly feel a "connection" to Stoney Creek, or Winona for that matter, but I don't go around complaining about my property taxes being used there.


I understand where brett.electrician was coming from with his post, but the fact is that the people in Flamborough are the ones only wanting to pay for what they use.
I don't agree with that sort of set-up since we're living in a society with societal responsibility.
I would love to end area-rating tomorrow. Flamborough people are the ones who want to keep it.
Rural residents are a different story....the McMansions in Greensville and sprawl in Waterdown are getting a free ride in our current set-up. They've paid hardly anything in taxes (compared with similar areas of Hamilton) for 30 years and STILL pay much lower tax than inner city homes. The city is slowly playing catch-up with them and they are acting like it's the end of the world. That's why some of us are laying into them good and hard. They are whiny, little sucks who deserve it.
Who pays all the new Waterdown servicing?? Who takes care of their sick? Who takes their criminals? Who takes their homeless? Whose roads/parking garages do they use when they go to work? Who comes to their rescue in case of an emergency/police call/major fire/accident etc......

No "hatred" towards Flamborough. Just calling them out on the carpet on all their bullcrap. They contribute almost nothing to this city financially. Why should inner city residents subsidize them at an unfair rate? Again, I don't mind people paying into a pool to support society as a whole, but to subsidize people who choose to live in far-flung suburbs because my money is making it artifically cheap is flat out wrong.

[Millstone]

Is there really a homeless problem in Flamborough and Waterdown?

[raisethehammer]

no. they all come to Hamilton.

[brett.electrician]

So, since my first post in this thread, i have spoken to a few long time residents of Hamilton and Flambourgh and employees of the city tax and finance department about the opinions expressed in this thread. From what I've gathered a few people here don't have there facts to straight. From what I've heard prior to amalgamation there was the county of wentworth. The county looked after suchs things as roads, and schools. Each township in wentworth contributed taxes to this. While the rest of the township's expenses were covered by the townships themselves. Thus, Hamilton's taxes did not subsidize Flambourgh or anywhere else for the last 30 years. This leads me to believe there taxes were / are lower there due to the lower capital expenses compared to hamilton. I.E 100+ year old sewer and water system, highways, etc. Secondly and most likely more important from the residents of flambourghs point of view, without amalgamation the city of hamilton would have been bankrupt. Thus amalgamation was implemented to allow the rural areas to subsidize hamilton. So i can see why the residents are upset. Also, many residents of flambourgh feel they have a lot more in common with burlington and the gta the hamilton. They even tried to join them, but was forced to join hamilton due that bankruptcy issue.