[thistleclub]

Burlington Post (http://www.burlingtonpost.com/news/article/173673):

Is Mac deal dead?
City staff recommend council not commit $10 million to project
By Jason Misner
News
May 04, 2008

McMaster University's second attempt to build a Burlington campus may soon face an impasse.

Burlington city staff are recommending to Wednesday's (May 7) community and corporate services committee that the municipality not give $10 million toward construction of a proposed $25-million business school.

McMaster's preferred location for a campus is a 3.6-hectare (nine-acre) private site, on the South Service Road, west of Appleby Line.

The location is a change from an original 2006 downtown site proposal that Mac officials ultimately abandoned, citing a lack of space for future expansion.

City staff's rationale for its recommendation is that the new site selected by Mac "provides limited benefits to the city..."

Council members have stressed in the recent past that a city contribution would not come without debate. Wednesday's vote on the staff recommendation stands to be a crucial decision for politicians since Mac officials have repeatedly said the $10-million municipal contribution is critical to the creation of a Burlington campus.

"For it to be an option for us, we need to have appropriate financing," Ilene Busch-Vishniac, McMaster provost, told the Post last month. "We started with this project because the City of Burlington was interested in having post-secondary (here)."

The city committee meeting will be held the night before McMaster's board of governors is scheduled to debate the new site option -- including a business plan and detailed building design -- on Thursday (May 8).

DeGroote School of Business Dean Paul Bates said in an interview on Friday that it's "very premature" to discuss the prospect of Burlington not contributing money to a campus. He acknowledged the outcome from the meeting would be important as Mac charts its future direction for a city campus.

"A lot has changed since that original (downtown) commitment was made, not the least of which there have been a number of other significant commitments the city has made," he said. "I have huge respect for the folks who work at City Hall."

Asked if the campus could proceed without city funding, Bates said: "It's too early to ask that question."

The dean is hopeful a deal that works well for Mac and the city can be reached.

"We are working on the premise that we'll find the right resolution on this," he said, adding he plans to attend the Wednesday meeting.

Mayor Cam Jackson said he doesn't think a decision by the city not to give money, would necessarily kill a campus deal. The city knows Mac's needs but Mac needs to know what the city needs, he said.

"...there is a will to try and make an arrangement work," he said. "I'm quite confident McMaster will give us time to analyze this South Service Road location."

Jackson said Mac has been working on tight timelines, making it tough for the city to fully review the latest campus concept as it budgets for a number of other big-ticket projects including a $36.2 million performing arts centre.

"We have a lot of capital projects on our table," Jackson said. "We want to make sure this is the right location, that there's room for expansion; we want to determine McMaster is serious about a campus environment and not just a single building. We're looking for a long-term relationship with McMaster."

The 12-page staff report -- available at www.burlington.ca -- outlines five scenarios for councillors to consider for support of a Mac campus. The option being recommended -- which states the city's "gratitude" for the school's proposal -- is one that doesn't provide cash.

"...the proposed McMaster campus would be a catalyst for economic growth. However, balancing the $10-million investment required to realize this opportunity against the many other priorities and needs of the community is the difficult challenge facing council," said the report.

The Burlington Chamber of Commerce supports a Mac campus, and had been supportive of $10 million being paid to the university when the original plan was to build in the core.

Chamber president Keith Hoey said he couldn't comment on the recent staff recommendation to withhold money since it hadn't been debated yet, nor would he discuss what Mac's reaction might be if it was approved.

He did say he's "concerned" about Mac's reaction if council votes not to give money toward the project.

"I would be concerned that if council decides not to spend the $10 million, that will have a negative impact on McMaster's decision, meaning McMaster might decide to not come and I believe that's a bad thing for the city," he said.

Wednesday's committee meeting starts at 6:30 p.m. at City Hall, 426 Brant St.

[raisethehammer]

hahahahahahaha

[flar]

They should build it in downtown Hamilton, they could expand endlessly on the parking lots around King William. But I know Mac wants a Burlington Campus, and Burlington council is right to prefer it downtown. The suburban highway campus approach is ridiculous in this day and age.

[HAMRetrofit]

It needs to be relocated here anyways:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=149951

[SteelTown]

This is when Mayor Fred should get Michael DeGroote, Braley, or Joyce to help convince Mac to think about downtown Hamilton instead as they'll likely give $10 million for Hamilton.

[FairHamilton]

Hamilton already has Mac, what value does one more location bring (apart from the fact it would be downtown). IMO, Hamilton should seek out another university to locate downtown. If York, Western, Queens, U of T, etc. were to locate in downtown it would give Mac some competition and it's always good to keep the incumbent on their toes, also it would expand the desirability/marketability of downtown Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

Hamilton already has Mac, what value does one more location bring (apart from the fact it would be downtown). IMO, Hamilton should seek out another university to locate downtown. If York, Western, Queens, U of T, etc. were to locate in downtown it would give Mac some competition and it's always good to keep the incumbent on their toes, also it would expand the desirability/marketability of downtown Hamilton.

I absolutely agree. 100%

[the dude]

the city seems to be very sensitive and cautious about approaching other universities - naturally, courting other schools would be the smart thing to do. along those lines, i think the city should push for mohawk to relocate downtown. you could abandon that campus tomorrow and nothing would be missed.

[realcity]

Good.. It's a ridiculous location anyway. The DeGroote School of Business is 15 minutes away.

I guess that PR person's dream of seeing a "MAC" sign on the highway won't happen. It's a sad state when it's becomes prestigious to be located on a 'service' road and not in a downtown.

The signs along the QEW between Burlington and Etobicoke don't do as much as people think. Most of the cars that travel the roadway are the same schleps everyday, they're not paying attention or giving a crap because of a business' sign adorning a blank wall on a nondescript bunker building on the crappy service road. And yet, look at how many of those signs are former Hamilton businesses.

[realcity]

Just from memory these businesses used to be in Hamilton or have roots in Hamilton, some were downtown. and now line the Service Road in Burlington.

OK&D Marketing
Canon
IBM
Bay Area Investigation
Laidlaw
Tim Hortons HO
Gennum
JanKelley Marketing
Royal Bank
Voortmans

I worked once in one of these Service Road Boxes and never again. You're completely stuck there. One road in and out, makes QEW rush hour traffic a relief when you finally get off the Service Road. Forget about busses, walking, biking, even a car barely functions at lunch time. The air quality is worse then anywhere, the surrounding landscape makes your cubicle look like a slice of heaven. And if you ever work at night, or you're a female worker, it is scarier then anywhere on Barton Street or Gore Park for example. Remember the reason why Dalton Timmis left the HSBC building. I know they didn't go on the service road, but sited safety concerns for female workers.

[realcity]

Hamilton already has Mac, what value does one more location bring (apart from the fact it would be downtown). IMO, Hamilton should seek out another university to locate downtown. If York, Western, Queens, U of T, etc. were to locate in downtown it would give Mac some competition and it's always good to keep the incumbent on their toes, also it would expand the desirability/marketability of downtown Hamilton.

I like this idea better.

[coalminecanary]

It woul be great to have another school downtown.

May I suggest brock?

No offence but they have a slight image problem that could be improved if they had a decent urban campus perhaps. They also already have a Hamilton campus in the east end, so bringing that downtown and expanding it so that it's more than just the teachers college could be feasible.

that said, i think it's really sad that mcmaster is looking at burlington when they could move downtown for next to nothing, and reap the benefits of the campuses being linked via lrt :-)

[Gurnett71]

that said, i think it's really sad that mcmaster is looking at burlington when they could move downtown for next to nothing, and reap the benefits of the campuses being linked via lrt :-)
:tup:

[realcity]

Brock downtown would improve their image.

Imagine if Brock decided to put their Teaching Program in the proposed Education Square?

[FairHamilton]

Any additional university campus would be great in downtown, no matter which university.

Currently, U of T is worried about other universities moving into Toronto and 'eating their lunch'. There are lots of universities putting on part-time masters (especially MBA's) in downtown Toronto.

One way to combat this issue, the U of T is now looking at moving undergrads out of their downtown campus, and into their satellite campuses (Scarborough & Mississauga) and beefing up (consolidating) their post-grad studies in downtown Toronto.

Now wouldn't Hamilton make a great satellite campus, for some of those undergrad students. I'd prefer post-grad, but would be happy with some undergrads at least to start.....

[the dude]

i've often the thought it would nice to have brock downtown. that said, the number of teacher candidates at that campus is fairly miniscule [can't remember the number]. furthermore, they recently purchased that school from the board and have invested a lot into it. an australian teacher's college recently opened a campus in burlington near the qew...sound familiar? perhaps there are some other international schools out there.

[coalminecanary]

They did recently purchase it, but the city could (and possibly would) offer them a sweet deal as a sort of trade up.

Believe me, they have not invested a lot into it -- beyond converting some classrooms into small blocks of offices.

Their program "Sells out" every year, and I'm sure they would be open to the idea of taking in more students if they had appropriate facilities!

[the dude]

^ontario universities pump-out too many teachers these days - something like 75% of first-year teachers can't get jobs after graduating and it isn't supposed to get much better in the future - but i understand your point.

i recall something about brock investing nearly $1M into that school but perhaps i'm wrong.

[coalminecanary]

$1M over how many years though? that probably includes years worth of snow removal and lawn cutting too hahah

[fastcarsfreedom]

Tim Hortons as a corporate entity was ALWAYS headquartered in Oakville and never "abandoned" Hamilton--Tim lived in Don Mills and Ron lived in Aldershot--so they put the office in the middle--it was as simple as that.

[SteelTown]

Burlington puts brakes on campus cash

May 08, 2008
Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Spectator
Burlington

McMaster's governors face a good-news, bad-news scenario this morning as they ponder the university's plan to build a $28-million business-school satellite in Burlington -- a plan that depends on a $10-million contribution from the city.

The good news is that all members of Burlington city council support the concept and recognize it would benefit their city.

The bad news is that none of them is ready to put up the full amount, now that the university plans to build at Appleby Line and the QEW instead of downtown, as originally planned.

The move has caused the city to question how much of the anticipated economic spinoff would go Burlington directly and how much would be spread throughout the broader region.

It now appears it will be September at the earliest before the city will tell the university what it is prepared to spend. Whatever the amount is, it will now need to be shared by Halton, after councillors voted unanimously last night to seek the region's equal participation in the project.

Getting a comprehensive picture of the potential economic benefits is another part of the bundle of new conditions the city is placing on its potential participation.

"This decision means we are still talking. We are still moving forward," said McMaster provost Ilene Busch Vishniac after the vote.

The city committee's decision -- subject to council confirmation May 20 -- may complicate the university's vote this morning on final approval for $28-million building, which is planned for opening by September 2010. That approval has always been conditional on the $10 million from Burlington.

[coalminecanary]

Credit goes to Burlington for being wary here. Mac tried a bait and switch on them and they didn't fall for it. I rarely find anything to praise Burlington for, but they are 100% correct to insist that funding for this campus should be tied to it being located in their downtown area.

That being said, I'd much rather see Mac downtown here.

But it's going to be bad enough seeing MEC nestled against a highway, Mac doing the same would be salt on the wound!

[SteelTown]

I know Mac Board of Governors has never really been 100% for a Burlington campus. If Peter supports it than the board usually goes along with him. So if this goes back to the Board I could see sparks going off and not getting the full support this time.

[raisethehammer]

Credit goes to Burlington for being wary here. Mac tried a bait and switch on them and they didn't fall for it. I rarely find anything to praise Burlington for, but they are 100% correct to insist that funding for this campus should be tied to it being located in their downtown area.

That being said, I'd much rather see Mac downtown here.

But it's going to be bad enough seeing MEC nestled against a highway, Mac doing the same would be salt on the wound!


true enough...at least Borington is trying to do something to make it not quite so boring anymore.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Burlington is a nice city, with well-established older neighborhoods and a lakefront that they've been steadfastly committed to building into a centerpiece for the city. Their efforts to attract Mac downtown were another piece of that puzzle. Well I can appreciate that the Dundas Street corridor and suburban tracts aren't suitable to some people's tastes--it makes no more sense to use that as a template to judge the entire city by than it would be to say Hamilton is "defined" by Industrial Drive or Stone Church Road.

Burlington wanted a downtown University campus--more power to them. Clearly Mac's preference is a drive-in/drive-out office park setting to attract the gainfully employed from the GTA to their Executive MBA program--and those two desires are disconnected. It's a positive move on Burlington's part--if Mac wants a satellite facility on the QEW Service Drive they probably shouldn't expect too many incentives from the municipality given what little impact it will have economically or culturally. Given Mac's objectives I would say they are about as committed to locating in Downtown Burlington as they are to locating in Downtown Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

using the tiny area around downtown Burlington as a template for the entire city makes far less sense than the other 95% of the city which is sprawl.
Most of Hamilton's lower city was built early last century or the previous century. Walk from Westdale to Red Hill and you've got no prob using that as a template to base the city on.
Hamilton grew up as a city.
Burlington grew up only as a suburb. If not for proximity to Hamilton and TO, it would still be 12,000 people.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Burlington developed primarily as a suburb--I don't dispute that--that is it's past 50 or so years of heritage. Nonetheless, the City south of New Street has an urban fabric, beautiful architecture and tree-lined streets. My point was not to draw a parallel between Hamilton--an industial-era urban city and Burlington which was a lakefront town with market gardens to the north. Instead, I take exception to statements of derision toward Burlington which ignore it's attributes and pretend that places like Aldershot, the RBG and Lakefront don't exist. Disliking the suburbs is one's perogative--I think it's important that the distinction was drawn between the Lower City and the Mountain--the Mountain comprises a massive portion of the City's landmass and developed--at least South of Fennell Ave in much the same way Burlington developed--as a suburb. Westdale itself is/was a suburb--master planned from the start on a suburban street pattern--it just happened to come 30 years earlier than most others. The Rosedale area--though it is East of the Red Hill is another example of early suburban development.

The bottom line is that it is possible to be "positive" about Hamilton without running down other cities--neighboring or not.

[oldcoote]

Burlington developed primarily as a suburb--I don't dispute that--that is it's past 50 or so years of heritage. Nonetheless, the City south of New Street has an urban fabric, beautiful architecture and tree-lined streets. My point was not to draw a parallel between Hamilton--an industial-era urban city and Burlington which was a lakefront town with market gardens to the north. Instead, I take exception to statements of derision toward Burlington which ignore it's attributes and pretend that places like Aldershot, the RBG and Lakefront don't exist. Disliking the suburbs is one's perogative--I think it's important that the distinction was drawn between the Lower City and the Mountain--the Mountain comprises a massive portion of the City's landmass and developed--at least South of Fennell Ave in much the same way Burlington developed--as a suburb. Westdale itself is/was a suburb--master planned from the start on a suburban street pattern--it just happened to come 30 years earlier than most others. The Rosedale area--though it is East of the Red Hill is another example of early suburban development.

The bottom line is that it is possible to be "positive" about Hamilton without running down other cities--neighboring or not.

Burlington south of New Street is beautiful. Just like old Oakville is beautiful. Maybe the newer development to the north will be considered beautiful in 30 years, who knows?

I agree with your last point. :tup:

[raisethehammer]

mods....I'd like to know why comments in this discussion have been deleted??
I realize Ted typed a little sob story asking moderators to get involved, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with our discussion. No name-calling, nothing rude and nothing inappropriate.
I'm sure he wanted you guys to moderate it since he used some pretty lame 'logic' to make a point, which I soundly corrected.
Someone help me out here...I'm clueless as to why those comments were deleted.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Thanks for pointing it out RTH, I hadn't noticed anything missing--it's a fair question--seemed to me to be lively discourse, but nothing personal or offensive.

[SteelTown]

It was deleted because it had nothing to do with the topic and steered off to bickering between two individuals.

I'll create another thread called "Rant Thread" and everyone can go at each other over there or let their fumes out because no one else wants to waste time reading it.

[fastcarsfreedom]

SteelTown--just call it Skyscraper Fight Club.

[raisethehammer]

personally, I think that's way too heavy handed and uncalled for.
I actually think people would have enjoyed reading it.

I state above that Borington wouldn't be more than 12,000 people today if not for TO and Hamilton's proximity.
BCTed stated that Hamilton would be on it's way to 12,000 if not for proximity to TO, and I responded that Hamilton would probably be around a couple million if not for proximity to TO.

Sure, it's not about the Burlington Campus, but is a decent extension of the topic that takes both Hamilton and TO into consideration.

If you guys start deleting every comment that strays ever so slightly off-topic, this thing will feel like a media outlet in China.

[JT Jacobs]

personally, I think that's way too heavy handed and uncalled for.
I actually think people would have enjoyed reading it.

I state above that Borington wouldn't be more than 12,000 people today if not for TO and Hamilton's proximity.
BCTed stated that Hamilton would be on it's way to 12,000 if not for proximity to TO, and I responded that Hamilton would probably be around a couple million if not for proximity to TO.

Sure, it's not about the Burlington Campus, but is a decent extension of the topic that takes both Hamilton and TO into consideration.

If you guys start deleting every comment that strays ever so slightly off-topic, this thing will feel like a media outlet in China.

I agree. Topics will, of necessity, become unmoored from their original anchoring subject, here and there, but this tends to result in great discourse and the creation of strong ideas.

[SteelTown]

I will start deleting when comments like these are made....

that's a good one.
that's called using NO logic, not 'altering it slightly'. You must be in quite the mood tonight eh? trying to pick a fight?? haha.

Because of that it started a whole bickering fest. How is that related in any way to this topic other than butting heads against one another?

[raisethehammer]

cherry picking one line out of my entire post (which was made in humour - thus the 'haha) is no way to determine the quality of an entire comment.
There needs to be way more leeway than this IMO.

[SteelTown]

Next time just avoid making comments like that and just state your opinion. Avoid going personal even if it's not serious. That's all I'm requesting.

[BCTed]

mods....I'd like to know why comments in this discussion have been deleted??
I realize Ted typed a little sob story asking moderators to get involved, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with our discussion. No name-calling, nothing rude and nothing inappropriate.
I'm sure he wanted you guys to moderate it since he used some pretty lame 'logic' to make a point, which I soundly corrected.
Someone help me out here...I'm clueless as to why those comments were deleted.

I really didn't think much of our whole "lame 'logic' " discussion. It wasn't much of anything, really. I did get the feeling that you were trying to egg me on with the "trying to pick a fight" comment, but no big deal.

My "sob story" had nothing to do with my "logic". The comment was in response to fastcarsfreedom's comment about not having to run down other cities as part of being "positive" about Hamilton, with which I agreed. You do not have to bring others down to bring yourself up, and you do that all the time with "Borington" and "Flimsby." I don't like that put-everyone-else-down attitude very much, especially given that most of these places are local and really have nothing wrong with them in my view.

[BCTed]

I'm sure he wanted you guys to moderate it since he used some pretty lame 'logic' to make a point, which I soundly corrected.

I rambled a bit in my last post. I did not ask for that discussion to be deleted. I do not like seeing deleted posts. In fact, my most recently deleted post in this thread involved me asking why another of my posts had been deleted. I wanted someone to tell you to stop being so rude when it comes to people and cities you do not like.

[raisethehammer]

fair enough....I'm just saying, it should all be on here to read. not deleted.

[worldwide]

as if that conversation was any better

[HAMRetrofit]

Thanks for deleting the unnecessary posts they were making these threads very difficult to follow for members that do not log in often.

I think this is a good window for Hamilton to jump to the occasion with a proposal to create a significant university development in the downtown. Think of mixing the business school, medical center, and teacher's college all into downtown campus. Now that would be a shot in the arm for the downtown.

[raisethehammer]

that would be great.
you know what else would be awesome downtown is if...... oops, sorry. That was going to be a little off-topic. I almost forgot.

[Jon Dalton]

Is this even the type of facility we want in the downtown? Judging by what I've read it will serve mostly GTA businesspeople who are going for their MBA while working elsewhere. They won't be living or working in Hamilton, and will be too busy to hang around.

I wonder, maybe Appleby Line is the right location. If it's a drive-in, drive-out campus, why not put it next to the highway. It's even right next to the GO station so therefore better served by transit than downtown Hamilton or Burlington.

I'd like to see Mac expand their undergrad facilities to downtown. That would get students on the LRT and spending downtown.

[BCTed]

Is this even the type of facility we want in the downtown? Judging by what I've read it will serve mostly GTA businesspeople who are going for their MBA while working elsewhere. They won't be living or working in Hamilton, and will be too busy to hang around.

I wonder, maybe Appleby Line is the right location. If it's a drive-in, drive-out campus, why not put it next to the highway. It's even right next to the GO station so therefore better served by transit than downtown Hamilton or Burlington.

I'd like to see Mac expand their undergrad facilities to downtown. That would get students on the LRT and spending downtown.

Solid post. I don't want to see McMaster open a campus outside of Hamilton either, but it makes sense, especially given that McMaster seems to be trying to establish some kind of executive MBA program. Queen's University and the Ivey School of Business both offer executive MBA education right in Toronto.

[HAMRetrofit]

This is why I feel that the Burlington location is useless. Either open the school in downtown Toronto or downtown Hamilton where business is head quartered.

[BCTed]

This is why I feel that the Burlington location is useless. Either open the school in downtown Toronto or downtown Hamilton where business is head quartered.

Downtown Hamilton really does not have much at all in the way of MBA-type jobs --- it is close to negligible. Burlington is closer to downtown Toronto, as well as places like Mississauga which really do have much more in the way of business head offices than does Hamilton.

[HAMRetrofit]

Interesting I can think of over a hundred right now. Hamilton still has a higher concentration of office employment compared to its suburbs. Burlington is not a good choice of location for office head quarters. Mississauga would be better but what is the point. Its already U of T territory.

[BCTed]

Interesting I can think of over a hundred right now. Hamilton still has a higher concentration of office employment compared to its suburbs. Burlington is not a good choice of location for office head quarters. Mississauga would be better but what is the point. Its already U of T territory.


You can think of over one hundred what right now? Potential employers of MBA graduates in downtown Hamilton?

Name fifty.

[HAMRetrofit]

Show me stats and I will believe you. Until then downtown Hamilton employs nearly 40,000 persons. I estimate a minimum 3% of this to be holding MBAs for a total of 1200

Most major corporations lease space in downtown Hamilton. This includes major accounting firms like KPMG. If you believe my stats to be inaccurate please provide more detailed figures. Otherwise accept that downtown Hamilton is a good regional location to locate the MBA school.

[Millstone]

Show me stats and I will believe you. Until then downtown Hamilton employs nearly 40,000 persons. I estimate a minimum 3% of this to be holding MBAs for a total of 1200

Most major corporations lease space in downtown Hamilton. This includes major accounting firms like KPMG. If you believe my stats to be inaccurate please provide more detailed figures. Otherwise accept that downtown Hamilton is a good regional location to locate the MBA school.

Please name the one hundred jobs you just thought of yesterday at 10:28pm.

[raisethehammer]

mods-- this is way off topic. Let's roll out the heavy hand again.

[BCTed]

Show me stats and I will believe you. Until then downtown Hamilton employs nearly 40,000 persons. I estimate a minimum 3% of this to be holding MBAs for a total of 1200

Most major corporations lease space in downtown Hamilton. This includes major accounting firms like KPMG. If you believe my stats to be inaccurate please provide more detailed figures. Otherwise accept that downtown Hamilton is a good regional location to locate the MBA school.

3% of 40,000 is way, way, way high.

I can look into this a little bit later on, but for now, the burden of proof lies squarely on you.

[BCTed]

mods-- this is way off topic. Let's roll out the heavy hand again.

What are you talking about? This is right on topic. We are talking about the suitability of downtown Hamilton as a location for an MBA/executive MBA school.

[SteelTown]

Can't lock a thread or delete some of post simply because it goes off-topic. That only happens if there is bickering or lack of respect for other forumers.

[Jon Dalton]

What changed my mind on the issue was the fact that this would be an exclusive program, thus noone would need to split their time between two campuses. If that were the case, downtown Hamilton would be the best location and downtown Burlington would be the worst. Appleby is better served by both highways and transit from McMaster than downtown Burlington.

We should pick our battles wisely. MEC was a much bigger loss in my opinion.

[HAMRetrofit]

Downtown Hamilton really does not have much at all in the way of MBA-type jobs --- it is close to negligible. Burlington is closer to downtown Toronto, as well as places like Mississauga which really do have much more in the way of business head offices than does Hamilton.

Please provide statistics of these claims. Please provide evidence that Hamilton has fewer MBA positions than Burlington. The basis of your argument is that the school would be better located in Burlington because of higher MBA numbers. I am skeptical that this is the case.

Locating the school in Mississauga would be a non-starter, it is already U of T territory. Milton is already receiving a Laurier campus.

The Mac MBA program could easily occupy upper floors of Stelco Tower or something like that without ever needing to build a new campus.

[FairHamilton]

I think this is a good window for Hamilton to jump to the occasion with a proposal to create a significant university development in the downtown. Think of mixing the business school, medical center, and teacher's college all into downtown campus. Now that would be a shot in the arm for the downtown.

I don't think Mac is too interested in a downtown campus, period.

I think they find highway exposure and the ability to expand the campus (i.e. not be land-locked) more appealing. I know being land-locked won't be as big a problem in Hamilton as there is more vacant land available. But, I truly think they want that highway exposure and that's one of their prime motivators.

Also, I believe the land they now want to use has been donated. So to entice them to an alternate site they'll want more than the $10M they were getting from Burlington. They'll want $10M, plus free land.

I'm still of the opinion that Hamilton should look to other universities to expand the base of schools in Hamilton. I think that would make much more sense and show Mac while they are the biggest (in Hamilton), they are not the only game in town........

[fastcarsfreedom]

Regardless of the number of MBA-ready jobs in Hamilton OR Burlington--the point is missed. As has been discussed ad nauseum--Mac wants exposure to the GTA market--Toronto obviously has far and away the most MBA jobs in Canada--that's the exposure Mac wants, it has nothing whatsoever to do with MBA jobs in Burlington or Hamilton--it's all about the Q.E.

[HAMRetrofit]

I agree with you fastcart but still think that the University's aspirations to locate in Burlington are a dog's leg. Downtown Toronto would be the place to be. That is where the concentration is going to be. A GTA business park is not going to be any better than downtown Hamilton. I don't see the prestige in locating beside a highway whether it is in Burlington or Brampton. The location will still be inconvenient for MBAs who are downtown Toronto. Might as well put the school downtown Hamilton and create a mini me of Toronto's CBD.

Other than this, the the next best place would be Thornhill.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I don't disagree with you Retro, however, if you assume that Mac wants a location 'as convenient as possible' to Toronto then the QEW and Appleby Line makes sense. Remember, this is an off-shoot of the DeGroote School, which will still be on the main campus--therefore locating in Downtown Toronto (already U of T territory as previously stated) doesn't make logisitical sense and would be a high-cost alternative. Secondly, as nice as Downtown Hamilton would be--I doubt it would be worth the expense considering the current proximity of the main campus to downtown.

For everything to "make sense" you have to keep in mind that this isn't so much a second campus as a very specific, singularly focused satellite operation which exists only to churn out Executive MBA degrees. Keeping that in mind ONLY the QEW location makes sense--regardless of opinions to the contrary.

[BCTed]

Please provide statistics of these claims. Please provide evidence that Hamilton has fewer MBA positions than Burlington. The basis of your argument is that the school would be better located in Burlington because of higher MBA numbers. I am skeptical that this is the case.

Locating the school in Mississauga would be a non-starter, it is already U of T territory. Milton is already receiving a Laurier campus.

The Mac MBA program could easily occupy upper floors of Stelco Tower or something like that without ever needing to build a new campus.

Statistics to back up what claims? That the QEW in Burlington is closer to Toronto and Mississauga than is downtown Hamilton? Who said anything about higher MBA numbers in Burlington than in Hamilton? How is that the basis of my argument when I did not suggest anything of the sort? What happened to your claim of over 100 MBA employers in downtown Hamilton?

[HAMRetrofit]

How many major corporations are there in Hamilton and area? There is likely one MBA per business on average with over fifty persons. You do the math. This is my experience with Toronto businesses I can't see Hamilton being any exception to this.

I don't see how the QEW location is convenient at all for anyone. I am ticked anytime that I need to travel to a GTA business park from Toronto CBD. It takes hours out of my day. It is major inconvenience.

If the main campus is in Hamilton for the business what possible advantage will a drive to Burlington be? Business is conducted in the core. The business parks just move things around and store them. Paper flipping is done in the core with the exception of a few spur offices. MBAs would prefer to be downtown.

[HAMRetrofit]

Statistics to back up what claims? That the QEW in Burlington is closer to Toronto and Mississauga than is downtown Hamilton? Who said anything about higher MBA numbers in Burlington than in Hamilton? How is that the basis of my argument when I did not suggest anything of the sort? What happened to your claim of over 100 MBA employers in downtown Hamilton?

Anyways I can't foresee a modicum of business sense in what you post. From what I can tell, you are not employed downtown and do not know the ins and outs of real business. The MBA community is not negligible in downtown Hamilton. I can't believe people on this thread can tolerate such nonsense being posted without major objections.

Over 9000 people are employed at Canadian headquarters in the Hamilton area.

[highwater]

The Mac poobahs don't do anything without conducting surveys and focus groups. They have consciously decided to become a commuter university servicing the 905, with all that that entails geographically and culturally. No doubt they've done the math and discovered that their target market wants a drive-by education somewhere within easy reach of Mississauga/Brampton/Insert Exurb Here, close to a highway so they don't have to deal with messy downtowns.

Hamilton should start seriously courting U of T for the downtown.

[BCTed]

Anyways I can't foresee a modicum of business sense in what you post. From what I can tell, you are not employed downtown and do not know the ins and outs of real business. The MBA community is not negligible in downtown Hamilton. I can't believe people on this thread can tolerate such nonsense being posted without major objections.

Over 9000 people are employed at Canadian headquarters in the Hamilton area.

"Anyways" what? I may not not have a modicum of business sense, but I am not the one throwing out outlandish and unsupported claims:
- you can think of over 100 potential employers of MBA students in downtown Hamilton "right now"
- You believe that 40,000*3% = 1200 MBAs or potential MBAs work in downtown Hamilton

I have no idea what "9000 people employed at Canadian headquarters in the Hamilton area" even means. Where did that number come from? How do you define Canadian headquarters? How big is the "Hamilton area"? Does this group of 9000 people include cleaning staff?

Many top-tier MBAs look for management consulting and investment banking gigs. Such jobs just do not exist in Hamilton (and the DeGroote MBA school doesn't really open doors to those careers). Various strategy, marketing, accounting, other financial services, et cetera, positions may exist and be deemed MBA-type positions, but I imagine that they are few and far between in downtown Hamilton, where much office space is taken up by call centres and places with primarily administrative type of roles.

I don't think the Burlington campus is a great idea either and I agree that it is not a very convenient location because of QEW congestion, but Burlington is still geographically closer to MBA-type employers than is downtown Hamilton. End of story.

[BCTed]

I just did two quick searches on workopolis.com:

1) I typed in the keyword "MBA" for "Toronto and area".
Number of job postings that popped up: 453

2) I typed in the keyword "MBA" for "Hamilton and area".
Number of job postings that popped up: 5
One of those jobs was in Oakville for an unnamed company and another was for CUMIS in Burlington.

HAMRetrofit, it is time for you to stop talking out of your derriere.

[HAMRetrofit]

Sorry BCTed your random search of Workopolis proves absolutely nothing. It is equivalent to searching MLS and listing the number of homes you find there. It is not an indication of anything.

[BCTed]

Sorry BCTed your random search of Workopolis proves absolutely nothing. It is equivalent to searching MLS and listing the number of homes you find there. It is not an indication of anything.

And all of the numbers that you have been throwing out off the top of your head mean something?

[HAMRetrofit]

I am not saying that they are perfect but they are quite good. I am an experienced financial analyst. I don't have the time right now to do a full analysis but you should presume that I am close to being right.

As someone that could potentially look into doing an MBA one day I have to be honest I would never want to go to Burlington. I like the CBD as the place to conduct business and would want the same environment for my school. All amenities are close and there are synergies with other businesses located close. The business parks are for poor lazy overweight 905ers. They are grossly spread out and difficult to conduct business efficiently. The space is usually terrible and I enjoy commuting to work on rapid transit. I enjoy going to the gym in my building at lunch. The food within close proximity is high end. Nothing in this world could possibly convince me that a suburban business park could offer anywhere near as many amenities as downtown Toronto. I cringe thinking about making trips to the business parks. They are so depressing.

What needs to be done is locate the school in the downtown of Hamilton and run an efficient train service between the cities. Build a solid downtown corporate base using the school as the center.

[FairHamilton]

The business parks are for poor lazy overweight 905ers.

You guys really kill me and you must carry a fairly large brush. You'd have to in order to slag 100's of thousands in a single swipe. Quite the generality, and very telling regarding your opinions of others who are unlike yourself.

[flar]

Yes, we should really stick to facts and avoid stereotypes and overgeneralizations.

I think it's pretty clear that Mac wants a spot along the QEW near Burlington/Oakville because it's central to the many head offices and business parks located throughout the corridor between Hamilton and Toronto. I'm sure a lot of the courses will be attended by managers from the many smaller companies in that corridor and not necessarily by high level executives from downtown Toronto.

[Jon Dalton]

The business parks are for poor lazy overweight 905ers.

and people who live downtown but can't find work there.

you might add underslept to that list as well, that being my observation from working in one.

[HAMRetrofit]

I am sorry about that line but it is true.

Most people working in those environments do not like them. When I started my career I was in business park outside of Malton. It was a terrible experience that I would not wish upon anyone. The CBD is preferred by most major execs and those that can afford central Toronto real estate. This is the reality, sorry if it does not correspond to your views of the world. Just try working in one of those single story slaughter houses in the middle of no where and you will know. It just is not a pleasant experience for the most part. If you like them all the power to you but realize you are a minority.

[FairHamilton]

I am sorry about that line but it is true.

Most people working in those environments do not like them. When I started my career I was in business park outside of Malton. It was a terrible experience that I would not wish upon anyone. The CBD is preferred by most major execs and those that can afford central Toronto real estate. This is the reality, sorry if it does not correspond to your views of the world. Just try working in one of those single story slaughter houses in the middle of no where and you will know. It just is not a pleasant experience for the most part. If you like them all the power to you but realize you are a minority.

ROFLMAO, I didn't like it so most others must not like it........ What a myoptic view.

As asked with other posts, please site the study to back-up a such a broad wide-sweeping statement. Or, is it just your opinion? Sorry, your 'true' opinion.

Also, I'd like to state that I work at 366 Adelaide Street West (pretty close to downtown TO), so I'm certainly not sticking up for myself. It's just an inane statement, positioned as fact/truth with no back-up.

[FairHamilton]

Most people working in those environments do not like them. When I started my career I was in business park outside of Malton. It was a terrible experience that I would not wish upon anyone.

Just try working in one of those single story slaughter houses in the middle of no where and you will know. It just is not a pleasant experience for the most part. If you like them all the power to you but realize you are a minority.

I guess those suburban areas were sucessfully able to create an urban environment that induced people to live in the area, and then businesses followed filling in the industrial malls.

Based on your previous agrument; http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140319&page=21, I'd argue that people love to live and work in those areas.

Not scientific only interpreting one of your opinions.

[SteelTown]

McMaster art and music department is getting outdated and small. The same for Mohawk. I know Mohawk showed interest in relocating the Art and Music department to the downtown core (was part of Phase II of Lister Block, might still be I dunno).

If the School Board decides to relocate to the Mountain perhaps the City should investigate the idea of convincing McMaster to take the School Board site with the city proposed idea. Would be a great spot as it's neighbouring the Art Gallery.

[FairHamilton]

If the School Board decides to relocate to the Mountain perhaps the City should investigate the idea of convincing McMaster to take the School Board site with the city proposed idea. Would be a great spot as it's neighbouring the Art Gallery.

While I agree any higher education for the core would be good I still think we need to further discuss looking outside of the Hamilton City Limits for candidates. Hamilton needs more diversification within the city, not more of the same.

Think of the fanfare and exposure of a brand new (to Hamilton) university or college establishing a presence in downtown. WOW, that would get coverage in local media, in Toronto media and media in the city where the institution is headquartered. All good things.

And I think it would bring new ideas, vibrancy and new ways of doing things to downtown. If anything I think that should be Hamilton's goal.

[HAMRetrofit]

I guess those suburban areas were sucessfully able to create an urban environment that induced people to live in the area, and then businesses followed filling in the industrial malls.

Based on your previous agrument; http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140319&page=21, I'd argue that people love to live and work in those areas.

Not scientific only interpreting one of your opinions.

They induced cheap taxes and cheep buildings and jammed people in cubicles. Yes they created the right economic environment to attract businesses, but they have also created an easy target. These areas will have more difficulty competing when all the problems and cheep logic that built them start to tangle.

It seems you are distorting my argument entirely, which I do not appreciate.

[FairHamilton]

They induced cheap taxes and cheep buildings and jammed people in cubicles. Yes they created the right economic environment to attract businesses, but they have also created an easy target. These areas will have more difficulty competing when all the problems and cheep logic that built them start to tangle.

It seems you are distorting my argument entirely, which I do not appreciate.

Not distorting, interpreting. You don't have to appreciate it, but you will have to tolerate it just as I and everyone else has to tolerate it with our posts.

I've moved back to talking about Mac, because we are too way off topic with all this bickering. Post a link to the scientific study outlining how all the 905er's are overweight and hate their work environments and lets move on to talking about Mac.

Right now, I don't see Burlington providing Mac with $10M for a side of highway campus. They might provide something else, but not $10M.

Most likely they hate the thought of a highway side campus. It used to be (I don't know if it's still the case) that cities got 'Payment in Lieu of Taxes' on educational property which was less than regular property taxes. I'm guessing highway side property is assessed at a higher rate than non-highway side property and the city will lose tax money with the move in location. Just my guess.

[HAMRetrofit]

I've moved back to talking about Mac, because we are too way off topic with all this bickering. Post a link to the scientific study outlining how all the 905er's are overweight and hate their work environments and lets move on to talking about Mac.

I don't need to post a study just go visit one. I do this on a bi-weekly basis. I can see the condition of employees working there compared to downtown. My point was a gross exaggeration I realize. I never claimed that it was not. Just go visit one of these places and find what you see. Then go visit a central Toronto office. You will see the difference.

Either way the relevance of all this to the Mac campus is the environment people want to work in, compared to the ones that are most economical. There seems to be a disconnect. I will be choosing to do my MBA at a school located in a CBD. This is the environment that I like to work in. Many of my colleges feel the same way. This is my point, I am not going to provide you with a scientific study that is general consensus.

[I, Sinclair]

This is the environment that I like to work in. Many of my colleges feel the same way. This is my point, I am not going to provide you with a scientific study that is general consensus.

I would agree. Having worked at Bay and Adelaide for quite a few years, and now working in a million sq ft, one floor 905 office park, I will concur that most early career professionals would prefer a downtown school.

However, I would imagine that a Mac Exec MBA is targeting mid career applicants, who have probably already moved to the burbs to raise a family. A highway-side school is probably way more convenient than downtown hamilton or burlington.

I think the idea of a satellite campus specifically built just to address a market phenomena is contrary to the spirit and purpose of the institution of the university. Schools should not chase market trends, especially when those trends have almost run their course.

Burlington Council is making the right decision. Build a proper institution downtown, that can serve the community, not meet consumer demand.

[raisethehammer]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06EED61338F937A3575AC0A9659C8B63

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/272582

[flar]

I think the idea of a satellite campus specifically built just to address a market phenomena is contrary to the spirit and purpose of the institution of the university. Schools should not chase market trends, especially when those trends have almost run their course.



I don't like it, but the trend in universities is to treat the students as clients or customers and try to please them in anyway possible.

[FairHamilton]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06EED61338F937A3575AC0A9659C8B63

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/272582

But the talk was about where people work, not where they live.

Posted on another post (I think by Retro) they felt that most of the people living in downtown Toronto condos travel to the suburbs for work. So, they must be just as overweight and depressed about their work environs and they are 416ers.

[FairHamilton]

I would agree. Having worked at Bay and Adelaide for quite a few years, and now working in a million sq ft, one floor 905 office park, I will concur that most early career professionals would prefer a downtown school.

However, I would imagine that a Mac Exec MBA is targeting mid career applicants, who have probably already moved to the burbs to raise a family. A highway-side school is probably way more convenient than downtown hamilton or burlington.

I think the idea of a satellite campus specifically built just to address a market phenomena is contrary to the spirit and purpose of the institution of the university. Schools should not chase market trends, especially when those trends have almost run their course.

Burlington Council is making the right decision. Build a proper institution downtown, that can serve the community, not meet consumer demand.

I agree, the market will be mid-career people looking to boost their careers to the next level. And I agree many of them already live in the suburbs. I would say it's a fact that most people move to a suburban setting as they get married and start families (mid-career). This happens for a variety of reasons (i.e. the 1 bedroom + den (closet) won't support a family, prices in the city are out of reach, etc....

I'm not pro-highway but I do agree people attending the campus will view easy highway access (not that downtown Burlington is too far from the highway) as a plus. Highway in Burlington makes it easy for anyone west of Mississauga and down to really St. Catherines to attend. Whether it's really easier or not, there will be a perception it's easier.

Unfortunately, with the days of reduced post-secondary funding universities act more like businesses and less like institutions of higher learning. There's a reason why Executive MBA's, are so desireable to these institutions. They make a lot of money for the schools.

[HAMRetrofit]

Maybe we should make the school a drive through with a Tim Hortons while we are at it.

Trust me, no one in the Toronto CBD business community is going take this location seriously. Business parks are largely frowned upon. We consistently make fun of 905 business parks and dread ever being moved to one. This school needs to be a serious establishment and a highway drive through just won't cut it. Sorry to who this might offend in business parks but you know what I am talking about.

[fastcarsfreedom]

HAMRetrofit--you seem to be gainfully employed in the business community--so I'm somewhat amazed by your mopic view on this issue. Firstly, Executive MBA programs (and students) are an entirely different demographic than those folks who go through with an MBA as a follow on to a BComm or other degree. Executive MBA students come from a variety of fields--accountants for the Provincial Government, bank branch managers, etc. Therefore, just because you and some of the your Bay Street counterparts don't want to be working in Newmarket, it doesn't negate McMaster's business plan for this satellite location.

While we're at it--I'm compiling a list of groups that are okay to ridicule in our Politically Correct world--so far I'm up to, 905ers, overweight people, Americans and Fundamental Christians--have I missed any?

[HAMRetrofit]

It is a matter of personal preference. I am grossly exaggerating my point. I have admitted to this. I am personally indifferent to your list. I never claimed that there was anything wrong with the 905 or people working in business parks. It is not like it is their fault they end up there.

[BCTed]

HAMRetrofit--you seem to be gainfully employed in the business community--so I'm somewhat amazed by your mopic view on this issue. Firstly, Executive MBA programs (and students) are an entirely different demographic than those folks who go through with an MBA as a follow on to a BComm or other degree.

I believe that McMaster's plan is/was to fully locate/relocate both MBA streams to Burlington. The unversity does not really have an executive MBA program in place just yet.

[raisethehammer]

not to sure where to put this, but yes, for the first time ever, I'm jealous of something being built in Burlington:

http://www.stratacondos.ca/

25 stories of condo goodness with ground floor retail.
These guys kill me...it's Molinaro again. Head office in downtown Hamilton, yet they only build offices here - fed building and that new one at Main/Hughson.
How about a condo tower here fellas??

[adam]

Burlington downtown is a great area with a lot of growth and all kinds of amenities. You have every right to be jealous. Hamilton has a looong way to go to play catch up.

[raisethehammer]

I'm not jealous of their downtown at all. I think the place is dead as a doorknob. I just like the look of this building. I'd move away if downtown Hamilton ever became as lifeless as burlingtons.

[flar]

Downtown Burlington has some life, the waterfront park is always really busy. They also have a lot of cafes and patios that are fairly busy. On the other hand downtown Burlington is small, Village Square is dead and the streetlife is not nearly as diverse and interesting as Hamilton's.

[raisethehammer]

I guess you have to know when to arrive.
I was over there twice recently for an appointment.
beautiful sunny days early evening and mid-day.
both times, everything was empty and streets were devoid of life.
patios were empty, cafes were empty. Maybe I'm in the wrong spot. I was on Brant and then around the corner on Lakeshore where all these apartments are being built.
Both times I came back downtown Hamilton afterwards to streets filled with people, patios full on James,Hess,Augusta and a much more vibrant scene.
Burlington only seems to be busy during Ribfest.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Everyone finds Downtown Burlington to be "dead"--yet it is the home of several developments the likes of which everyone here salivates over--wishing such would come to Hamilton. Could it be, as has been suggested repeatedly, that these upscale type buildings do nothing to add to the type of vibe everyone seems to be seeking? Could it be that Stinson's tower, had it come to fruition, merely have been filled with folks who drove in/out of the garage and rarely walked out the lobby doors?

[raisethehammer]

Everyone finds Downtown Burlington to be "dead"--yet it is the home of several developments the likes of which everyone here salivates over--wishing such would come to Hamilton. Could it be, as has been suggested repeatedly, that these upscale type buildings do nothing to add to the type of vibe everyone seems to be seeking? Could it be that Stinson's tower, had it come to fruition, merely have been filled with folks who drove in/out of the garage and rarely walked out the lobby doors?

you'll always have some of that, no matter where you are.
Downtown TO has seen a ton of that sort of development with a ton of people using cars.
Hamilton would have seen a lot more people on the street simply due to the already existing urban environment. Similar (but not as dense) as TO.
Burlington's is largely suburban and I'm guessing most buyers in these projects are older folks, not young 'hipsters' looking for a cool urban experience which is what you see in downtown Hamilton. We get the older folks too, but a good mix. Burlington seems more like a bedroom community for well-off white folks.
It's nice to see some condos, but they've got a lot of work and a lot of years ahead if they ever want a real downtown.

[flar]

I would imagine downtown Burlington is dead during the daytime, the people living in those condos are largely middle class and work 9 to 5. I've only been there on weekday evenings and a Sunday afternoon, each time there were a lot of people out. The phototour of Burlington I did was on a Tuesday evening around 7 to 9 pm.

[thistleclub]

not to sure where to put this, but yes, for the first time ever, I'm jealous of something being built in Burlington:

http://www.stratacondos.ca/

25 stories of condo goodness with ground floor retail.
These guys kill me...it's Molinaro again. Head office in downtown Hamilton, yet they only build offices here - fed building and that new one at Main/Hughson.
How about a condo tower here fellas??

This project has been in development for a while. The Ribfest sponsorship makes it seem newer than it is. For the past couple of years they've been fighting a 20-year-old zoning bylaw that would cap the site at 10 storeys -- 25 storeys would make this Burlington's tallest building.

I've heard rumours that Molinaro Group may in the process of moving their HQ to Burlington, possibly to get leverage for Strata. I have a feeling that the location of Burlington's downtown and the city's willingness to plunk condos along its waterfront are factors behind the development of 360 on Pearl, Spencer’s Landing, Bunton’s Wharf etc. Strata, at a half-km from the water (and the QEW, commuters will be pleased to learn), is the firm's most inland offering yet. Pretty much everything they build is spitting distance from the water.

[SteelTown]

Yep, downtown Burlington is a 9 to 5 area. After 5pm downtown Burlington shows sign of life. Weekends it's really busy, especially the waterfront. But that's typical in most suburban areas.